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Carts
05-17-2011, 04:32 PM
Head Coach Aron Winter will be on TSN Radio 1050 at 5pm.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-17-2011, 04:47 PM
whats he saying so far?

boban
05-17-2011, 06:48 PM
Head Coach Aron Winter will be on TSN Radio 1050 at 5pm.
Anybody even listen to that station?

Detroit_TFC
05-17-2011, 07:15 PM
Guess not.

ensco
05-17-2011, 07:20 PM
Head Coach Aron Winter will be on TSN Radio 1050 at 5pm.

First that Fire preview email, then this post went up at 5.32pm.

When did they make the announcement that supporting TFC required time travel?

moralis
05-17-2011, 07:23 PM
Found it here: Aron Winter interview on Cybulski and Company

http://www2.tsn.ca/podcasts/tsnradiopodcast.xml

wzhxvy
05-17-2011, 08:04 PM
Biggest problem has been with the home grown players....hmmm...interesting comment from Winter....

algieb
05-17-2011, 08:13 PM
can somebody give details off interview,not great at downloadind this stuff,not comp literate

Auzzy
05-17-2011, 08:40 PM
You should be able to listen at this link: http://podcast.tsn.ca/tsnradio/winter_051711.mp3

Pigfynn
05-17-2011, 08:41 PM
^link no workie

sashavukelich
05-17-2011, 08:41 PM
^^^^ Thanks Auzzy!!!!

Auzzy
05-17-2011, 08:46 PM
^link no workie

Weird, http://podcast.tsn.ca/tsnradio/winter_051711.mp3 works for me in Google Chrome, but not in Internet Explorer... Sorry, not sure why!

Whoop
05-17-2011, 09:10 PM
I listen to TSN Radio but I was still working at 5 p.m.

brad
05-17-2011, 09:16 PM
Biggest problem has been with the home grown players....hmmm...interesting comment from Winter....

Meaning from TFC like Nana?

Or North American trained players like Cann, Peterson, Sturgis and Gargan that have no footballing brains or skill?

redcard
05-17-2011, 09:17 PM
Biggest problem has been with the home grown players....hmmm...interesting comment from Winter....

yeah he seems to hint that home grown players have an entitlement attitude...interesting.

wzhxvy
05-17-2011, 09:26 PM
He specifically referred to Cann, followed by Dero then Nana. He names those 3.

boban
05-17-2011, 09:45 PM
He specifically referred to Cann, followed by Dero then Nana. He names those 3.
Not surprised.
Also not surprising they are the 3 that have steered the focus away from the field and onto off field things ie. contract.

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 09:48 PM
Wow, he had/has problems with the two guys who had promises broken and the one guy they are fucking over.

I'm not surprised.

Carts
05-17-2011, 09:54 PM
First that Fire preview email, then this post went up at 5.32pm.

When did they make the announcement that supporting TFC required time travel?

Sorry for the late notice - posted this just before 5pm at Kennedy station, I guess it didn't leave the BB until I made out of the subway at the other end (although I thought it would have gone through, at worse, on the Bloor bridge)...

Anyways, sorry it didn't go through in time guys... :(

Carts...

boban
05-17-2011, 09:57 PM
Wow, he had/has problems with the two guys who had promises broken and the one guy they are fucking over.

I'm not surprised.
Wow. he wasn't here when those promises were made.
He made decent proposals to the, although never promising when he first got here to begin with.
Guy has more soccer and business soccer knowledge than anyone here on this board.
So I am not surprised at your post.

Carts
05-17-2011, 10:00 PM
Anybody even listen to that station?

Plenty actually, especially for a new station...

Anyways...

As usual, I tried to mention something I thought people might care about only to read the usual pathetic posts and shots...

Just like the TV ratings - I won't bother in the future...

Sorry to those who like to hear about this stuff (TV ratings, radio interviews, media events linked to the team - no more)...

Carts...

ArmenJBX
05-17-2011, 10:08 PM
He's essentially telling us that the only problematic players have been local Torontonians like Dwayne De Rosario, Adrian Cann and most recently, Nana Attakora.

He says he will not give preferential treatment to local players just because they're from Toronto. All players must work hard and want to play for Toronto!

boban
05-17-2011, 10:08 PM
Plenty actually, especially for a new station...

Anyways...

As usual, I tried to mention something I thought people might care about only to read the usual pathetic posts and shots...

Just like the TV ratings - I won't bother in the future...

Sorry to those who like to hear about this stuff (TV ratings, radio interviews, media events linked to the team - no more)...

Carts...
I read somewhere about a week ago the initial number were actually pretty bad. It's getting slaughtered vs. the FAN.
anyways ...
what you all upset about. I just asked a question.
Nobody was pissing about your post perse.
People are just debating what Winter had to say.
Have a beer and relax.
:drinking:

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:09 PM
Wow. he wasn't here when those promises were made.
He made decent proposals to the, although never promising when he first got here to begin with.
Guy has more soccer and business soccer knowledge than anyone here on this board.
So I am not surprised at your post.

The organization as a whole is still responsible for its promises, no matter who made them. Besides, at the very least Winter acknowledged the previous promises made to Cann as he was willing to re-negotiate his contract. Plus there are still people involved in TFC who would have known about the previous promises. So Winter doesn't get off that easily.

The thing that surprises me is how you've become an MLSE lackey. I didn't see that coming.

Carts
05-17-2011, 10:11 PM
I read somewhere about a week ago the initial number were actually pretty bad. It's getting slaughtered vs. the FAN.
anyways ...
what you all upset about. I just asked a question.
Nobody was pissing about your post perse.
People are just debating what Winter had to say.
Have a beer and relax.
:drinking:

Fan numbers are much higher - they are an established and successful station in the Toronto market...

boban
05-17-2011, 10:15 PM
Fan numbers are much higher - they are an established and successful station in the Toronto market...
Fair enough, but I find TSN Radio too American. Too US centric.. Not enough local sports.
Plus the level of conversation is not up to FAN 590.

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:18 PM
I'm a little annoyed that Cann, Attakora and De Rosario are being scape-goated here.

Other than those 3 players and maybe Stefan Frei pretty much every player on our team is here because TFC is their last resort. So obviously if you are just happy to be playing and getting paid you aren't going to cause a stink.

I shudder to think what these hard asses might do if/when they try to negotiate a new contract with Frei.

Beach_Red
05-17-2011, 10:19 PM
yeah he seems to hint that home grown players have an entitlement attitude...interesting.

It's not that surprising when there's a quota. We've been hearing about the problems with Canadian players since the first season. This kind of thing will always be an issue as long there are quotas and a salary cap.

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:19 PM
Fair enough, but I find TSN Radio too American. Too US centric.. Not enough local sports.
Plus the level of conversation is not up to FAN 590.

Actually I find it to be either about hockey or American syndicated sports programs. I tune it out when the American stuff is on.

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:21 PM
It's not that surprising when there's a quota. We've been hearing about the problems with Canadian players since the first season. This kind of thing will always be an issue as long there are quotas and a salary cap.

I don't think that's fair.

These players weren't treated well. That has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the professionalism of the TFC FO.

boban
05-17-2011, 10:22 PM
I'm a little annoyed that Cann, Attakora and De Rosario are being scape-goated here.
How are they scapegoated?
Did Aaron or someone else from TFC tell them to take the stand that they took?

boban
05-17-2011, 10:25 PM
I don't think that's fair.

These players weren't treated well. That has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the professionalism of the TFC FO.
What about the professionalism of the players themselves?

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:26 PM
How are they scapegoated?
Did Aaron or someone else from TFC tell them to take the stand that they took?

I have this strange sense of deja vu. Like its 2007 and Canadians are being blamed for why we suck...


What about the professionalism of the players themselves?

De Rosario and Attakora did nothing wrong. Obviously the cheque-signing was immature but the Celtic issue was blown out of proportion by errors in the FO.

I don't agree with Cann leaving the team but I also don't agree with the way he was treated.

v00d00daddy
05-17-2011, 10:37 PM
I have this strange sense of deja vu. Like its 2007 and Canadians are being blamed for why we suck...



De Rosario and Attakora did nothing wrong. Obviously the cheque-signing was immature but the Celtic issue was blown out of proportion by errors in the FO.

I don't agree with Cann leaving the team but I also don't agree with the way he was treated.

You have an interesting way of looking at things.

Dero did nothing wrong?
Cann did but, but.....

Whatever. Players did nothing wrong and Winter is doing things that remind you of 2007....lol

I thinks it's comical.

Haven't had a chance to listen to the interview....should be interesting.

menefreghista
05-17-2011, 10:41 PM
You have an interesting way of looking at things.

Dero did nothing wrong?
Cann did but, but.....

Whatever. Players did nothing wrong and Winter is doing things that remind you of 2007....lol

I thinks it's comical.

Haven't had a chance to listen to the interview....should be interesting.

Its pretty easy to have players vilified here when so many have a pro-management stance.

It was mentioned before in another thread, we claim we support the players, just as long as they aren't having a dispute with management. Than we become company men ourselves.

Beach_Red
05-17-2011, 11:05 PM
As long as a certain number of Canadian players are required to be on the roster that's pretty much the definition of entitled. Their agents will represent them differently than agents of players from other countries and management will have to handle them differently.

Yes, it's not fair, but it's the way the league has chosen to go so to everyone will have to adapt. There's a good chance that if it wasn't these specific players there would still be problems. TFC management has been complaining about "the Canadians" since the first sseason.

shwade
05-17-2011, 11:14 PM
Its pretty easy to have players vilified here when so many have a pro-management stance.

It was mentioned before in another thread, we claim we support the players, just as long as they aren't having a dispute with management. Than we become company men ourselves.

Why would we support players that are causing a nuisance and aren't supporting the team?

Roogsy
05-17-2011, 11:21 PM
Why would we support players that are causing a nuisance and aren't supporting the team?

I didn't know "supporting the team" meant allowing the team to swindle you. Good to know. I wonder if all the players know this? We should inform them.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 12:43 AM
Gareth Wheeler has the most annoying voice.

ag futbol
05-18-2011, 01:13 AM
Not sure where to go with this one...

Think it's a little early for anyone to be making excuses.

Dunkers
05-18-2011, 01:53 AM
As long as a certain number of Canadian players are required to be on the roster that's pretty much the definition of entitled. Their agents will represent them differently than agents of players from other countries and management will have to handle them differently.

Yes, it's not fair, but it's the way the league has chosen to go so to everyone will have to adapt. There's a good chance that if it wasn't these specific players there would still be problems. TFC management has been complaining about "the Canadians" since the first sseason.


I dont know if this is really the case anymore, see MLS roster rules

Domestic/International:


The two MLS clubs based in Canada – Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps FC – began with eight international slots, but their domestic slots may be filled with either Canadian or U.S. domestic players.
MLS clubs based in Canada are required to have a minimum of three Canadian domestic players on their rosters.
Players with the legal right to work in Canada are considered Canadian domestic players (i.e., Canadian citizen, permanent resident, part of a protected class).

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

Thats 3 out of 30, I dont think that wil offer very much leverage to an agent. It used to be 13 of 26, which would have deffinatly offered leverage.

brad
05-18-2011, 05:01 AM
Plenty actually, especially for a new station...

Anyways...

As usual, I tried to mention something I thought people might care about only to read the usual pathetic posts and shots...

Just like the TV ratings - I won't bother in the future...

Sorry to those who like to hear about this stuff (TV ratings, radio interviews, media events linked to the team - no more)...

Carts...

Please keep posting this stuff. I'm glad you do, and I'm sure many others are. Unfortunalty the board has been over run by people that only want to birch and complain about anything and everything.

brad
05-18-2011, 05:05 AM
I didn't know "supporting the team" meant allowing the team to swindle you. Good to know. I wonder if all the players know this? We should inform them.

They've been swindling us all since day one :)

brad
05-18-2011, 05:13 AM
It's a tough bind. One of TFC's big problems in the Mo era was locking players into guaranteed contracts and over paying them. In a tightly capped league this is killer. So we can keep Mo's promises and his legacy of crippling the team with large contracts can continue.

DeRo is a bit different, because he is worth the money. Today. What happens if his production drops off in a year or two? Entirely possible at his age. It's a big risk. In football the notion of signing aging players to high paying long term contracts is usually considered dumb, and moving an aging player while they still have value is a standard move.

menefreghista
05-18-2011, 05:48 AM
As long as a certain number of Canadian players are required to be on the roster that's pretty much the definition of entitled. Their agents will represent them differently than agents of players from other countries and management will have to handle them differently.

Yes, it's not fair, but it's the way the league has chosen to go so to everyone will have to adapt. There's a good chance that if it wasn't these specific players there would still be problems. TFC management has been complaining about "the Canadians" since the first sseason.

The Canadian quota is so low now that it is essentially irrelevant.

TFC has had 5 seasons to adapt to this. Their answer to the problem (in conjunction with Vancouver) was to make the quota so low that it is meaningless.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 06:32 AM
The Canadian quota is so low now that it is essentially irrelevant.

TFC has had 5 seasons to adapt to this. Their answer to the problem (in conjunction with Vancouver) was to make the quota so low that it is meaningless.

3 out of 30 does seem "almost" irrelevant, but the coach is only complaining about 3, isn't he? Who knows, maybe if the quota was one, he'd be complaining about that one.

Any quota system is difficult to manage. CFL teams do it with a much higher quota. It will probably be a lot easier for TFC when they have a coach for more than one season who can get used to it.

menefreghista
05-18-2011, 06:38 AM
3 out of 30 does seem "almost" irrelevant, but the coach is only complaining about 3, isn't he? Who knows, maybe if the quota was one, he'd be complaining about that one.

Any quota system is difficult to manage. CFL teams do it with a much higher quota. It will probably be a lot easier for TFC when they have a coach for more than one season who can get used to it.

The quota is a joke.

We currently have 10 Canadians on our roster by the way. And one of the players Winter mentions isn't on that list of 10 as he's been shipped out.

The three players have problems because of their circumstances not because they are Canadian.

Its sad to know the excuse making never stops with this team. Even worse is how people eat it up.

ensco
05-18-2011, 06:53 AM
Sorry for the late notice - posted this just before 5pm at Kennedy station, I guess it didn't leave the BB until I made out of the subway at the other end (although I thought it would have gone through, at worse, on the Bloor bridge)...

Anyways, sorry it didn't go through in time guys... :(

Carts...

Hey, no offence intended. Sorry if my post came out wrong. It just seemed amusing! :)

Pookie
05-18-2011, 06:54 AM
Wow, he had/has problems with the two guys who had promises broken and the one guy they are fucking over.

I'm not surprised.

I'll break my reply down into 2 themes.

Broken Promises

Respectfully, that's a simplistic view of a complex situation. The league itself holds the contracts. Further, in the real world, honouring alleged promises made by former leaders isn't a rubber stamp. New leaders always surround themselves with "their people" regardless of what was promised under previous leaders.

As for the "two guys", one guy has had a pay increase and some might contend that his new salary is a decent one for MLS standards.

The other guy demanded a trade and is now playing for a new team under the same contract. This is a funny one to me. DeRo apologists contended that he was a dominant offensive force who deserved DP money.

Now that he is on pace to score 2-3 goals this season, they contend that under the NYRB he is a terrific distributor of the ball and playing a selfless style and style one of the best, apparently ageless, players in the league. They suggest that his declining offense is simply a function of the style of play, not a decline in skill and that this role was envisioned for DeRo from the start.

Of course, it isn't true but it allows the Toronto-mistreatment-bad decision theory to continue. Soler commented that they paid the high price to get DeRo because he was "... one of the most dangerous players MLS has seen in the attacking third." (Soler, NYRB). 2-3 goals? That's some scary production from the attacking third.


Canadians Sense of Entitlement

Why is it so hard to think that the "Canadian" sense of entitlement is real? Is it because we are Canadian and immediately side with them?

Think about all of the comments for years about locker room discontent. About a rift between American and Canadian players. About our quota system. About Mo's comments that our first DP had to be Canadian. About the raw comments made by Chad Barrett (an American) about lack of passion from his teammates on live TV and the fact that after the New York 5-0 drubbing only Cronin and Edwards (both Americans) stood and faced the cameras and questions.

Our leadership under both Brennan and DeRosario (both Canadians) was questionable at best.

It's not that far of a reach to think that Winter is speaking the truth.

ensco
05-18-2011, 07:12 AM
That's pretty revealing. Lumping Dero in with Cann and Nana isn't very fair to the latter two guys. They may all have been screwed, but Dero's public acts around it put him in a totally different category. Plus he's gone.

Also thanks to McCartney, for finding something pretty interesting in a not-so-highly-traveled corner of the sports media world...

sashavukelich
05-18-2011, 07:23 AM
I don't think that's fair.

These players weren't treated well. That has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the professionalism of the TFC FO.

I think this is fair. But i'm not sure what you said earlier about all the other players coming to TFC as a last resort is true at all, it's hearsay.

He is right though, it's like the Canadian boys have not had to wake up to the real world and have been coddled.

menefreghista
05-18-2011, 07:32 AM
But i'm not sure what you said earlier about all the other players coming to TFC as a last resort is true at all, it's hearsay.

Its not hearsay. Its more like my own observation on the state of our roster. You don't have to agree with it, but that's what it looks like to me.

When you look past Cann, Attakora and Frei, for the most part most of the rest of our roster is a bunch of guys that are lucky to be here.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 07:36 AM
It's not that far of a reach to think that Winter is speaking the truth.


Sure, but the exact same statements from other coaches would have been critisized here a lot (after we'd passed throuigh the stage where we think he's the greatest coach ever who will bring us championships and have become disillusioned - we seem to be right on schedule ;).

Speaking the truth to the media is not always the best way for a coach to get the best performances out of his players but let's hope in this case it works and the team improves its play.

menefreghista
05-18-2011, 07:38 AM
Speaking the truth to the media is not always the best way for a coach to get the best performances out of his players but let's hope in this case it works and the team improves its play.

He can get away with it because De Rosario is already gone, Attakora is on his way out, and Cann probably won't be around after this season.

boban
05-18-2011, 08:09 AM
I have this strange sense of deja vu. Like its 2007 and Canadians are being blamed for why we suck...



De Rosario and Attakora did nothing wrong. Obviously the cheque-signing was immature but the Celtic issue was blown out of proportion by errors in the FO.

I don't agree with Cann leaving the team but I also don't agree with the way he was treated.
So 2 out of the 3 you say they could have handled it better. Now they are scapegoated? :facepalm:
And I don't believe its the Canadians play that he is referring to you. Its the attitude. Never downed on me to make that connection until I heard it from Aaron on that clip above. And you know - he's write.

boban
05-18-2011, 08:12 AM
The quota is a joke.

We currently have 10 Canadians on our roster by the way. And one of the players Winter mentions isn't on that list of 10 as he's been shipped out.

The three players have problems because of their circumstances not because they are Canadian.

Its sad to know the excuse making never stops with this team. Even worse is how people eat it up.
What is sad is how you eat it up.
How do you know there are not contract issues with other players? You don't because they don't let it out, nor do they have the attitude that these 3 have/had.

BTW, the quota is not a joke. How else do you propose to improve Canadian soccer?

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 08:46 AM
The sarcasm and the generalizations regarding this topic never cease to amaze me. It is entirely possible and logical to support Winter's stance without being a mindless drone that supports the actions of MLSE as an ownership entity.

Every stituation should be judged objectively on an individual basis. If supporters rationalize that Winter inherited a precarious situation with DeRo and Cann, responded accordingly, and that both players were unprofessional at times during their contract disputes, there is substantial evidence to support that point of view.

I understand some of you believe Winter and Mariner should have bent over backwards to try to honor Mo Johnston's verbal commitments that preceded their tenure, and you're entitled to your opinions. If others disagree, it certainly doesn't indicate that they are MLSE sycophants.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 09:05 AM
Of course, it isn't true but it allows the Toronto-mistreatment-bad decision theory to continue. Soler commented that they paid the high price to get DeRo because he was "... one of the most dangerous players MLS has seen in the attacking third." (Soler, NYRB). 2-3 goals? That's some scary production from the attacking third.


This is where you lose all credibility. Are you saying DeRo is not playing a different role in NY than he was here? Have you even watched a NY game?

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 09:05 AM
^ I don't care of they honoured any agreements or not, that's up to them and they'll live with the consequences. I do think they could have handled everything a lot faster and gotten on with the business of building their own team. It's on them that this stuff has dragged on so long and still comes up. (or they aren't entirely in control of the team yet)

Section 117
05-18-2011, 09:10 AM
So Winter is the latest coach to reference the entitlement that certain Canadian players have on this squad. Hasn't every coach said the same thing? The difference is Winter did it while still in charge.

If only one of former coaches said it then you could call it sour grapes, if multiple coaches say the same thing directly or indirectly there must be at least some truth to it. Where there is smoke there is fire. The only thing that surprised me with Winter's comments is that he didn't call out JDG.

My 2 cents

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 09:15 AM
^ I don't care of they honoured any agreements or not, that's up to them and they'll live with the consequences. I do think they could have handled everything a lot faster and gotten on with the business of building their own team. It's on them that this stuff has dragged on so long and still comes up. (or they aren't entirely in control of the team yet)

I doubt you'll ever be convinced that management is in control of the personnel decisions on this team, so I won't bother debating that with you anymore.

As for the timelines, I completely disagree. The DeRo and Cann contract situations were both addressed during the pre-season. Winter's intention was clearly to resolve both issues prior to the start of the regular season.

boban
05-18-2011, 09:16 AM
^ I don't care of they honoured any agreements or not, that's up to them and they'll live with the consequences. I do think they could have handled everything a lot faster and gotten on with the business of building their own team. It's on them that this stuff has dragged on so long and still comes up. (or they aren't entirely in control of the team yet)
I don't really agree with that. He had to deal with the Celtic shit storm right away and let that cool off. He made an offer to Dero after that and had to give his time to respond and think about that offer. With regards to Cann, in training camp Cann left but what was back for the start of the season. Now his focus turned to Attakora and his offers had to be given time for Nana's side to mull things offer.
Sometimes you can't rush father time, things have to work themselves out.

kaos197O
05-18-2011, 09:21 AM
Now that he is on pace to score 2-3 goals this season, they contend that under the NYRB he is a terrific distributor of the ball and playing a selfless style and style one of the best, apparently ageless, players in the league. They suggest that his declining offense is simply a function of the style of play, not a decline in skill and that this role was envisioned for DeRo from the start.

Of course, it isn't true but it allows the Toronto-mistreatment-bad decision theory to continue. Soler commented that they paid the high price to get DeRo because he was "... one of the most dangerous players MLS has seen in the attacking third." (Soler, NYRB). 2-3 goals? That's some scary production
.
Wow! The hate rages on, along with the total disregard for his abilities. I suppose Soler, and for that matter, Hans Backe know nothing of what they speak. Surely you and I have a better understanding of what role Dero has been asked to play on their squad and whether he is fulfilling that role! He already has 2 goals this season and let's not forget that he no longer takes free kicks, something that always added to his goal scoring totals here. Let's wait and see where his totals end up EH? That's what people keep saying about TFC and Winter. They need time to adapt. It's a new system. Give them time to gel. Yet you won't afford Dero the same thing.

I really don't get the hate here. Let's compare this to a boyfriend/girlfriend scenario, one where there are promises not to cheat. Said person is great in bed and a great partner but you cheat anyways! He/She gets mad. You say "get over it". They say "I'm done with this shit". Throughout the process they pleaded for you to live up to your word and you repeatedly did not and then set your own NEW conditions on what it would take for you to fulfill that original promise. All the while they continue to live up to their end of the original agreement, minus some understandable contempt for your actions. Finally, they leave.

So what is it that Dero did to you that invokes this negativity? He delivered the goods here in TO, in fact he had career best years, yet you still have this tainted view. Forget the tiny little antics that resulted from the deception. They were a product of their environment.

Seriously, he's gone and will continue to a force in MLS for New York now.

As for Winter being the truth! I am skeptical and have every right to be so. He has been here and built relationships with FO and the players for only 4 months. Dero, Cann and Attakora have had substantially longer relationships with FO than he. And WE the fans have had the LONGEST relationship with FO. Based on what they have done in the past easily allows me to be a skeptic, to be cynical, to hate if I so choose. Winter is just a coach/technical director, nothing more, who gets his paycheque from them. I don't expect for him to speak the truth about his seniors, nor about the players if it is something that goes against his bosses wishes. He needs to secure his own job.

I do not believe that everything we hear is truth, not ever. It's sad but it's reality.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-18-2011, 09:25 AM
So Winter is the latest coach to reference the entitlement that certain Canadian players have on this squad. Hasn't every coach said the same thing? The difference is Winter did it while still in charge.

If only one of former coaches said it then you could call it sour grapes, if multiple coaches say the same thing directly or indirectly there must be at least some truth to it. Where there is smoke there is fire. The only thing that surprised me with Winter's comments is that he didn't call out JDG.

My 2 cents

yeah i was sorta thinking this too, this isnt the first time we've heard this.
Of course the opposite argument is that MLSE/FO are the ones causing the players to act like this... (i dont necessarily subscribe to this thought. Initially i believed both parties were in the wrong. Now certain parties are sticking their nose in places it doesnt belong and doing nothing for their reputations)

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 09:26 AM
I doubt you'll ever be convinced that management is in control of the personnel decisions on this team, so I won't bother debating that with you anymore.

As for the timelines, I completely disagree. The DeRo and Cann contract situations were both addressed during the pre-season. Winter's intention was clearly to resolve both issues prior to the start of the regular season.


I was never convinced JFJ was in charge of the Leafs, but I believe Burke is. As soon as they hire a president for TFC I'll be convinced. I've spent a lot of time in a similar business with lots of agents, backroom deals, short-term contracts, big egos and political manouvering. Someday Winter will be able to run the team completely if he's determined enough and really wants to, but there were already loyalties and compliacted relaionships in place when he arrived.

I think there needs to be a stronger buffer between Winter and MLSE. Maybe it's Mariner and he's handling all this behind the scenes. Winter seems like a decent and honest guy who is just telling it like he sees it.

This organization eats those guys for breakfast.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 09:26 AM
As for the timelines, I completely disagree. The DeRo and Cann contract situations were both addressed during the pre-season. Winter's intention was clearly to resolve both issues prior to the start of the regular season.

The DeRo situation was most certainly not resolved during preseason. Rewriting of history does not make it so. In fact, it would have lingered on longer if DeRo had not finally put a stop to it.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 09:28 AM
I understand some of you believe Winter and Mariner should have bent over backwards to try to honor Mo Johnston's verbal commitments that preceded their tenure, and you're entitled to your opinions. If others disagree, it certainly doesn't indicate that they are MLSE sycophants.

I can't comment on the promises made to DeRo, because they way it was told to me the understanding was made between DeRo and Mo - I don't know if others were involved or knew about it at the time that it was made. Others definitely became aware of the promises and when that happened the reaction wasn't "Sorry, that's between you and MO" it was "well, we'll see what we can do".

The agreement regarding Cann's contract was absolutely NOT between him and Mo, everyone knew about it, accepted it and understood it. In short, Cann's salary this year plus his salary from last year were supposed to average $124k over the two years. To get to that number, Cann was expecting a salary this year of $170k and the team was offering $160k. The difference stems from differences between "salary" and "earnings" last year (his salary was one figure, but he actually earned more from bonuses etc.).

Mo's departure played no part in the Cann contract dealings. The entire club was aware of the deal, considered the deal to be one that it made, not one that Mo made, it recognized that deal, and was willing to honour that deal until a disagreement over what was to be included from last year ("salary" or "earnings") to determin this year's salary.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-18-2011, 09:28 AM
god i hate this thread.
im out.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 09:33 AM
The DeRo situation was most certainly not resolved during preseason. Rewriting of history does not make it so. In fact, it would have lingered on longer if DeRo had not finally put a stop to it.

You are neglecting the fact that Winter and Mariner tried to resolve it during the preseason. DeRo didn't accept the proposed contract extension, and that's why the situation lingered.

Whether or not Winter and Mariner made a reasonable offer is up for debate, depending on an individual's assessment of DeRo's relative value, and the fact that he was already legally bound to a contract.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 09:34 AM
I don't really agree with that. He had to deal with the Celtic shit storm right away and let that cool off. He made an offer to Dero after that and had to give his time to respond and think about that offer. With regards to Cann, in training camp Cann left but what was back for the start of the season. Now his focus turned to Attakora and his offers had to be given time for Nana's side to mull things offer.
Sometimes you can't rush father time, things have to work themselves out.

I can't speculate on Winter's motives, but if he was aware of the history (and I can't imagine him not being, but I'll admit that its possible) the offer that he made DeRo wasn't one that would give him anything to think about. It was a token offer, one that would allow the team to say "We made him an offer, but he demanded a trade".

JonO
05-18-2011, 09:35 AM
The DeRo situation was most certainly not resolved during preseason. Rewriting of history does not make it so. In fact, it would have lingered on longer if DeRo had not finally put a stop to it.
I know he's addressed it already Roogs, but you are setting up the ultimate strawman argument here... (Sorry couldn't resist)

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 09:47 AM
I can't comment on the promises made to DeRo, because they way it was told to me the understanding was made between DeRo and Mo - I don't know if others were involved or knew about it at the time that it was made. Others definitely became aware of the promises and when that happened the reaction wasn't "Sorry, that's between you and MO" it was "well, we'll see what we can do".

The agreement regarding Cann's contract was absolutely NOT between him and Mo, everyone knew about it, accepted it and understood it. In short, Cann's salary this year plus his salary from last year were supposed to average $124k over the two years. To get to that number, Cann was expecting a salary this year of $170k and the team was offering $160k. The difference stems from differences between "salary" and "earnings" last year (his salary was one figure, but he actually earned more from bonuses etc.).

Mo's departure played no part in the Cann contract dealings. The entire club was aware of the deal, considered the deal to be one that it made, not one that Mo made, it recognized that deal, and was willing to honour that deal until a disagreement over what was to be included from last year ("salary" or "earnings") to determin this year's salary.

The bottom line is that Mo Johnston initially signed both players and is directly responsible for the terms and conditions of those contracts. The club may or may not have been aware of any verbal commitments that Mo made when the players were signed, but unless those terms are guaranteed in writing, I don't understand how anyone can chastise the current management regime for not honoring those commitments.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree on the matter, because we've already discussed it ad nauseum.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 09:52 AM
^ Because of the, "well, we'll see what we can do". That's when they took over responsibility for the verbal agreement. So the the question becomes did they have any real intention of "Seeing what they could do," or was that just another empty promise? Did they actually try and were told no by upper management? Or did they not try?

But you're right, we should just agree to disagree.

And agree that the game against Vancouver tonight is going to be very different from the last one and that TFC is going to win it 2-0.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:00 AM
You are neglecting the fact that Winter and Mariner tried to resolve it during the preseason. DeRo didn't accept the proposed contract extension, and that's why the situation lingered.

Whether or not Winter and Mariner made a reasonable offer is up for debate, depending on an individual's assessment of DeRo's relative value, and the fact that he was already legally bound to a contract.

I am not denying that they tabled an offer, although "try" is a subjective term. Essentially they offered him a coaching position after the contract was up. I don't know how much effort you could say was put into that contract offer. However, I was responding to your claim that they resolved the issue before the season started, the fact of the matter is they did not. It was resolved 2 games into the season. Whether you are pro-DeRo or not, that is fact.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 10:01 AM
And agree that the game against Vancouver tonight is going to be very different from the last one and that TFC is going to win it 2-0.

I hope so Beach...

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 10:03 AM
Roogsy, this is what I stated...


As for the timelines, I completely disagree. The DeRo and Cann contract situations were both addressed during the pre-season. Winter's intention was clearly to resolve both issues prior to the start of the regular season.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:04 AM
Roogsy, this is what I stated...


My apologies, I understood your statement that it was "addressed" as also having been resolved. You are correct sir.

boban
05-18-2011, 10:11 AM
So Winter is the latest coach to reference the entitlement that certain Canadian players have on this squad. Hasn't every coach said the same thing? The difference is Winter did it while still in charge.

If only one of former coaches said it then you could call it sour grapes, if multiple coaches say the same thing directly or indirectly there must be at least some truth to it. Where there is smoke there is fire. The only thing that surprised me with Winter's comments is that he didn't call out JDG.

Not a surprise. JDG played his whole adult life in Europe. He knows how things are done.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:13 AM
Either way, there are lots of people at fault for what happened to these players, but to blame the players ALONE (which means they do bare some responsibility) is just plain wrong. The fact of the matter is that they signed with Toronto under false pretenses. You can argue all you want about getting things "on paper" but all you are doing is reaffirming the fact that a person is forced to do that because otherwise the team is untrustworthy or unethical. That is hardly a vote of confidence.

Personally, I don't blame Winter for much with regards to the player contracts. That's not really what he does for TFC. I do however blame him on how he managed the relationships. What he did to Cann was embarrassing. I know people create excuses for him but in many circles it was viewed as a public shaming. With DeRo he should have either stepped up to MLSE and said "I want this guy, do what you have to do" or "If he does not want to stay under the current contract, get him out of here before the season starts". He did neither, and that is where I have a problem with him. And the whole Nana thing you guys know where I stand with that.

No, I am not impressed with how he "handled" things. But the funny thing is that I think those that are not the public face of TFC are actually more to blame for what has gone on, definitely more than Winter whose real responsibility lies on the pitch and where I have obviously been unimpressed even moreso. That is where I have a real problem with him. I simply don't believe he has the experience necessary to do more than "teach a new style" and that's about it. I think other coaches will outcoach him. I think he will continue to have friction with some types of players. I think that his unfamiliarity with MLS and with North America will be a major handicap for him. In short, I don't think he has what it takes to make us contenders. Teaching soccer players a different style of playing is simply not enough. A good coach has to do more and I have not seen anything from Winter that gives me that confidence.

Darlofletch
05-18-2011, 10:17 AM
So Winter is the latest coach to reference the entitlement that certain Canadian players have on this squad. Hasn't every coach said the same thing? The difference is Winter did it while still in charge.

If only one of former coaches said it then you could call it sour grapes, if multiple coaches say the same thing directly or indirectly there must be at least some truth to it. Where there is smoke there is fire. The only thing that surprised me with Winter's comments is that he didn't call out JDG.

My 2 cents

Yeah, I think this is very much an mlse inspired thing. I think they want (and in a way it's a very noble idea) to be as canadian as they can. there's been all sorts of pronouncements about growing the game in canada, about their investments in brennan, dasovic etc, and helping to create a strong national team. It seems that they see all that as just as important as winning.

Mo fully bought into this, and after starting with a heavy british influence, tried to get as canadian as he could, which reached it's peak in season 3, bringing in de ro, serioux, gerba etc etc.

it ran into problems after they brought in coaches from outside who were committed to winning first and foremost, screw what it meant to soccer in canada as a whole.

first off with preki, who got rid of gerba and serioux as soon as he could, and going by rumnours would have liked to get rid of de ro as well, preki was ousted after a bit of a coup by dasovic and other coaches, secure in the knowledge that the fo would have their backs. he left with his parting shot at de ro and de guz about "a couple of canadians". Now winter is saying similar things.

wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the 'homegrown' players or coaches now have the attitude that they're more important to the club than people from outside, that their development is just as important as the team winning. that's the message that's been running through the club from up high for a long time, why wouldn't they believe it.

mariner talked about winning cultures, that's not what tfc's been about, it's been a 'developing the game in canada' culture. as i said it's a noble idea, but I'd rather see it the other way round, build a winning culture first, then introduce academy players into that and canadian coaches into that winning culture.

rocker
05-18-2011, 10:24 AM
The fact of the matter is that they signed with Toronto under false pretenses. .

Nana signed under false pretenses? What were those?

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:26 AM
Nice misdirection. You know who I am referring to, especially since the previous posts to mine are quite specific as to who we're talking about but instead you choose to act dumb. Priceless.

Section 117
05-18-2011, 10:26 AM
Roogsy with all due respect who would have been the ideal coach then? Bearing in mind that probably the handful of coaches that are difference makers are employed and to getting them to come to this shit show is slim to none.

I think Winter is probably the best option to teach players how to play his system the problem which there are several are: one the majority of players are shit with zero soccer IQ, two he didn't have enough time to sign his players, and three adapting to MLS rules and officiating which even we have problems with it.

Yes it is early but I see enough signs and have spoken to enough people around the organization who all agree we are on the right track for the first time in 5 years. It will take some time, but we will see incremental improvements through out this year andnext offseason is the true test as then we can see who he brings in and truly makes this his team

Whoop
05-18-2011, 10:27 AM
Steve Nicol!

I mean he's the only coach that would make TFC successful.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:34 AM
Roogsy with all due respect who would have been the ideal coach then? Bearing in mind that probably the handful of coaches that are difference makers are employed and to getting them to come to this shit show is slim to none.

My first choice would have been Nichol. Given the resources he's had to work with, I think he's had a sterling MLS career. Besides that, I think a lesson from NY here would have been a good idea. A coach from a smaller European league/country that has actually won something with cheaper rosters and has shown to get the most out of his players. So a coach with a history of winning in Scandinavia or Belgium or something similar. That's where NY showed real intelligence in selecting a coach. Tell me, what has Winter won as a coach?


I think Winter is probably the best option to teach players how to play his system the problem which there are several are: one the majority of players are shit with zero soccer IQ, two he didn't have enough time to sign his players, and three adapting to MLS rules and officiating which even we have problems with it.

I don't disagree. That's why he'd be great as the Head of the Academy or as an assistant coach, like he was in Ajax. A head coach is not about development, which is what "teaching players how to play" is all about. I am shocked more people are not in tune to this fact.


Yes it is early but I see enough signs and have spoken to enough people around the organization who all agree we are on the right track for the first time in 5 years. It will take some time, but we will see incremental improvements through out this year andnext offseason is the true test as then we can see who he brings in and truly makes this his team

I see this often and I have no idea what this means. Anything would have been an improvement on Mo. So in that respect, yeah sure who wouldn't be thankful of the change? But is this change that will result in success for TFC? Some maybe, but to be frank, I don't think we should get our hopes up too high. I think Winter's tenure at TFC will result in TFC adopting this style of play as it's trademark and perhaps a couple of first-round appearances in the playoffs but that's about it. I have not seen anything tactical or innovative from Winter that tells me that he's going to be able to outcoach a Schmid or Arena or that he will be able to outmotivate a Kinnear or Kreis.

But I suppose a small modicum of success is better than what we've had for 4 years. I just hoped that with a fresh start, we would've aimed a little higher than simply "not crap".

By the way, there are VERY FEW people in this organization that I would care at all if they believe this organization is on the "right track". Mostly because some of them were saying it as well with Preki.

Danny is one person I would respect his opinion even though I wouldn't agree with him. I can't think of any others that I think would know their ass from a hole in the wall.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 10:40 AM
The bottom line is that Mo Johnston initially signed both players and is directly responsible for the terms and conditions of those contracts. The club may or may not have been aware of any verbal commitments that Mo made when the players were signed, but unless those terms are guaranteed in writing, I don't understand how anyone can chastise the current management regime for not honoring those commitments.

You're missing the point the bottom line is that it has nothing to do with Mo. The deals weren't some secret shared only between Mo and the player, they were well known and understood by everyone at the club. To not realize this, is to think that Cann and Mo had a deal that the club new nothing about, but TFC were willing to accept Cann on his word and offering him $160k. That defies all logic. If the club new nothing about the deal, or felt that the deal was something that they didn't have to honour because it was made by Mo then there's no way they ever would have tabled a $160k offer to a player who was under contract for $124k. Be very clear about it - the team's position isn't "we can't honour this deal because it was made by Mo and not us". The club's offer of $160k is tacit recognition of the deal AND the club's willingness to honour it in principal. The disagreement is over $10k, not the deal itself, who made it etc.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 10:40 AM
What he did to Cann was embarrassing. I know people create excuses for him but in many circles it was viewed as a public shaming.

see i thought the way Cann handled it as embarrasing. as a pro athlete you have a responsibilty to the team as well as yourself. walking out at a time where he was really needed in the rebuild i thought inappropriate.
and from management's point of view someone had to put their foot down and show that holding the team ransom tactic would not be tolerated.

not saying that cann didnt deserve the raise, i certainly think he did, but i dont think winter had much of an option. publicly being pushed over by single players was never going to fly. dont think either party wanted to be in that situation though.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:43 AM
You're missing the point the bottom line is that it has nothing to do with Mo. The deals weren't some secret shared only between Mo and the player, they were well known and understood by everyone at the club. To not realize this, is to think that Cann and Mo had a deal that the club new nothing about, but TFC were willing to accept Cann on his word and offering him $160k. That defies all logic. If the club new nothing about the deal, or felt that the deal was something that they didn't have to honour because it was made by Mo then there's no way they ever would have tabled a $160k offer to a player who was under contract for $124k. Be very clear about it - the team's position isn't "we can't honour this deal because it was made by Mo and not us". The club's offer of $160k is tacit recognition of the deal AND the club's willingness to honour it in principal. The disagreement is over $10k, not the deal itself, who made it etc.

This is where Cann screwed up. He should have taken the $160k and run. But since he didn't accept that deal, I guess it was never offered, it never existed and the team has made no recognition whatsoever of these under-the-table deals huh? :D

rocker
05-18-2011, 10:44 AM
Nice misdirection. You know who I am referring to, especially since the previous posts to mine are quite specific as to who we're talking about but instead you choose to act dumb. Priceless.

Dude, do you even read your own posts? I looked back at ALL YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD... and you don't mention who "they" are....

You expect me to read your mind? You said the players are not completely to blame and that "THEY" signed under false pretenses.

I then asked you to explain how Nana signed under false pretenses.

Are you talking about De Ro and Cann only and not Nana? Cuz the thread is about Winter complaining about all three of them. And then you generalized about "THEY".

Don't generalize if you meant De Ro and Cann.

menefreghista
05-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Tell me, what has Winter won as a coach?

Not only that, this is the first time ever that Winter has coached a professional team.

Coaching a youth team is a totally different thing.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 10:46 AM
see i thought the way Cann handled it as embarrasing. as a pro athlete you have a responsibilty to the team as well as yourself. walking out at a time where he was really needed in the rebuild i thought inappropriate.
and from management's point of view someone had to put their foot down and show that holding the team ransom tactic would not be tolerated.


When a player is owed money from the team, what other options does a player have than to withhold his services? What other leverage does he have? Cann wasn't "holding the team ransom" he was trying to pressure them into fullfilling their committment to him.



not saying that cann didnt deserve the raise, i certainly think he did, but i dont think winter had much of an option. publicly being pushed over by single players was never going to fly. dont think either party wanted to be in that situation though.


"Deserved" isn't the issue, "owed" is.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Dude, do you even read your own posts? I looked back at ALL YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD... and you don't mention who "they" are....

You expect me to read your mind? You said the players are not completely to blame and that "THEY" signed under false pretenses.

I then asked you to explain how Nana signed under false pretenses.

Are you talking about De Ro and Cann only and not Nana? Cuz the thread is about Winter complaining about all three of them. And then you generalized about "THEY".

Don't generalize if you meant De Ro and Cann.

Sorry, I didn't know it would be difficult to identify who we are talking about in this thread. :rolleyes:

"They" obviously means a single player, Nana. You're right.

rocker
05-18-2011, 10:47 AM
My first choice would have been Nichol.

What has Steve Nicol won tho?

I liked Nicol and would have signed him too. But judging based on trophies won would have ruled him out. Same thing if RSL had considered trophies when thinking about signing Kreis.

I think ideally I would have liked someone who has succeeded with more than one team in MLS... so Schmidt or Arena. But that's a small list and neither were available.

dupont
05-18-2011, 10:50 AM
I wonder if the media has inflated the egos of the local players which leads them to act in a selfish and self-entitled way?
This isn't the first time we've heard about this from a coach so there must be at least some truth to this opinion.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 10:51 AM
Who knows who was interested in coaching TFC.

Maybe guys like Nichol, Schmid, Arena, et al. didn't even want to come here. a) They're under contract to other teams and b) have never shown interest/don't want to come here.

Who knows who applied for the job.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 10:54 AM
When a player is owed money from the team, what other options does a player have than to withhold his services? What other leverage does he have? Cann wasn't "holding the team ransom" he was trying to pressure them into fullfilling their committment to him.



"Deserved" isn't the issue, "owed" is.

the only thing owed was the figure on his contract. the club could have promised him rainbow shitting unicorns. unless Cann had it in black and white, nobody owes him anything but what he agreed to. again, its a shit situation for peaches, and i feel for him that he was promised things by previous management. but if my manager promises me a raise, gets canned and i dont have anything in writing, no new manager is required to give me a raise. shit situation, but thats the reality of it.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 10:57 AM
What has Steve Nicol won tho?

I liked Nicol and would have signed him too. But judging based on trophies won would have ruled him out. Same thing if RSL had considered trophies when thinking about signing Kreis.

I think ideally I would have liked someone who has succeeded with more than one team in MLS... so Schmidt or Arena. But that's a small list and neither were available.


This is where it comes down to ownership. Dave Checketts picked Kreis. No one at MLSE is ever going to support an unknown, unproven coach on their own - that's why they'll get a consultant to do it so that if it doesn't work out they have an excuse and don't have to take responsibility. That's not their fault, that's the way many companies work.

Nicol hasn't won a championship so no one would go out on a limb in the boardroom and say, "We need to get this guy." Brian Burke has one ring and that makes all the difference, that's defensible if things go bad.

The choices were the consultant or a proven winner. Who knows, maybe the consultant was cheaper. Seattle had to pay very little for tampering with Colmbus to get Sigi (some allocation money, I think) but maybe the league made it clear it would be more next time.

ochos
05-18-2011, 10:57 AM
Great debating guys. I command you to all to take the rest of the day of and try to get some tail.

We'll regroup in the morning for OJ and whole grain pancakes

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 10:59 AM
This is where Cann screwed up. He should have taken the $160k and run. But since he didn't accept that deal, I guess it was never offered, it never existed and the team has made no recognition whatsoever of these under-the-table deals huh? :D

A fair result would be to split the difference at $165k. Each side could recognize that there was some ambiguity about what monies were to be included in calculating the $124k average and could have met half way. It's possible the that the club made that kind of an offer but Cann insisted on what he thought he was owed - I haven't heard that, but admit its possible.

What's beyond debate is the idea that the club viewed this as a deal between Mo and Cann and and as such that they weren't obligated to honour it.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 11:03 AM
what deal do you keep referring to?

no contract, no deal.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-18-2011, 11:03 AM
another problem with signing Nicol is the fact that he has done even less without Mariner there. I wouldnt have been against his signing but to think he would have turned this team around any quicker is a mistake.

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 11:06 AM
Not only that, this is the first time ever that Winter has coached a professional team.

Coaching a youth team is a totally different thing.

Well, Schellas Hyndman only coached Murray State, Eastern Illinois, and Southern Methodist before taking the job with FC Dallas. None of these are professional or anywhere near the caliber of the Ajax Academy and I think he's done okay.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:09 AM
the only thing owed was the figure on his contract. the club could have promised him rainbow shitting unicorns. unless Cann had it in black and white, nobody owes him anything but what he agreed to. again, its a shit situation for peaches, and i feel for him that he was promised things by previous management. but if my manager promises me a raise, gets canned and i dont have anything in writing, no new manager is required to give me a raise. shit situation, but thats the reality of it.

It wasn't in writing because the league wouldn't approve the deal, it would be a considered a violation of the salary cap rules. Before you get all high and mighty about that, look around the league - it happens everywhere. If Cann didn't make the agreement that he made, then he wouldn't have signed for TFC. EVERYONE at the club (not just Mo) understood what Cann did and appreciated his willingness to work with them to get a contract that would fit under the cap. The deal that Cann made was with the club, not Mo. Not a single person at the club believe that Cann left Europe to earn $45k, everyone knew that he signed for that amount to get under the league's cap rules and would be rewarded this season for doing that. At no point did the team say "sorry, tough luck that deal was with Mo and he's not here any more" the club recognized the deal and were willing to honour it but disagree over whether the deal was worth $160k (as they claimed) or $170k (as Cann claimed). The disagreement has NOTHING to do with any promises that Mo made and team not willing to live up to promises that he made. It has to do with a difference of $10k.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:10 AM
what deal do you keep referring to?

no contract, no deal.

That's not even TFC's position, why bring it up as if it's an issue?

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 11:14 AM
What I don't get is that some people want certain players to be rewarded with certain contract numbers (that cannot be verified by any of us) that were promised by the previous dodgy regime. That would be same dodgy regime that all the same people bitched about for overpaying certain players and thus crippling our team depth due to the salary cap.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:17 AM
What I don't get is that some people want certain players to be rewarded with certain contract numbers (that cannot be verified by any of us) that were promised by the previous dodgy regime. That would be same dodgy regime that all the same people bitched about for overpaying certain players and thus crippling our team depth due to the salary cap.

What I don't get is why some people think that deals are made with managers and not teams - especially when the team itself doesn't even believe this.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 11:19 AM
That's not even TFC's position, why bring it up as if it's an issue?

It's too bad this discussion always ends up like this, broken down into its smallest parts and debated in pieces. There is an issue here about the way team is run. At the end of the very first season there was a rumour that the coaching staff had been given one-year contracts (only Mo moved his family to Toronto) and promises about deals they'd get if things went well. Could things have possibly gone better? Only Mo stayed on for another one-year contract. Maybe that should have been more of a red flag.

As Whoop says, who knows who would take the job at TFC? What kind of a reputation does the team have?

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 11:23 AM
What I don't get is why some people think that deals are made with managers and not teams - especially when the team itself doesn't even believe this.

Well I think that is because when MLSE hired Mo Johnston it was announced that he was given full autonomy over all soccer operations. Or have you forgotten already?

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 11:25 AM
haha, me high and mighty huh? on this forum? thats pretty rich.

so if the leauge couldnt give him the deal at the time, and he was told that next season he would receive "X" amount of dollars, then he should have gotten that in writing from the club at that time. then there would have been no issues at all. cann would have gotten the money he deserves and it wouldnt have turned into a big public clusterfuck.

my point being (again) get your shit on paper, as thats something to fall back on. thats business. not pretty, but reality.

[end of being "high and mighty"]

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 11:28 AM
What has Steve Nicol won tho?

I liked Nicol and would have signed him too. But judging based on trophies won would have ruled him out. Same thing if RSL had considered trophies when thinking about signing Kreis.

I think ideally I would have liked someone who has succeeded with more than one team in MLS... so Schmidt or Arena. But that's a small list and neither were available.


Rocker, sometimes i think you do this to troll.

Steve Nicol Honours


Division 1 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Football_League_Division_1) (Level 1): 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1990
European Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League): 1984
FA Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/FA_Cup): 1986, 1989, 1992
Screen Sport Super Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Screen_Sport_Super_Cup): 1986
Charity Shield (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Charity_Shield): 1986 (shared), 1989, 1989, 1990
FWA Footballer of the Year (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Football_Writers%27_Association_Footballer_of_the_ Year) 1989
Runner-up

Charity Shield (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Charity_Shield): 1984, 1985
Intercontinental Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/FIFA_Intercontinental_Cup): 1984
European Super Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/European_Super_Cup): 1984, 1985
Division 1 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Football_League_Division_1) (Level 1): 1985, 1987, 1989, 1991
European Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League): 1985
League Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Football_League_Cup) 1987
FA Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/FA_Cup): 1988
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/United_States) New England Revolution

US Open Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/US_Open_Cup) 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) 2002
MLS Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Cup) Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/North_American_SuperLiga) 2008

Whoop
05-18-2011, 11:32 AM
I thought Winter's credentials as a player didn't count so why include Nicol's credentials as a player?

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Well I think that is because when MLSE hired Mo Johnston it was announced that he was given full autonomy over all soccer operations. Or have you forgotten already?

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The fact that Mo had full autonomy doesn't mean that the contracts that he signs are with him and not the club, or that deals that he makes are with him and not the club. When it came to Cann's situation, it wasn't a private deal worked out between Cann and Mo - everyone at the team knew what the deal was. No one at the club said "Mo, you're incredible! You conviced Cann to leave Europe and come play for us for a 1/3 of what he was making over there! You're a genius!" Everyone knew that Cann signed a deal at a low value to get under the salary cap, knowing that he'd get a big raise this year so that over the course of 2 years he'd average the salary that they agreed upon.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 11:34 AM
I mean Diego Maradona has just been hired as the coach of Al Wasl FC.

TFC should have hired him.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 11:38 AM
I thought Winter's credentials as a player didn't count so why include Nicol's credentials as a player?

Who said they didnt count?

Whoop
05-18-2011, 11:39 AM
And by the way, Steve Nicol, everyone's favourite coach, didn't have an extensive coaching career when he took over NER.

Two months with Notts County, player/coach for a couple of games with NER and then as a player/coach with the Boston Bulldogs in the A-League before re-joining NER.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:40 AM
haha, me high and mighty huh? on this forum? thats pretty rich.

I didn't accuse you of being high and mighty, I said don't get high and mighty over the team and player having an agreement that side-stepped the league's salary cap rules because they happen all the time.



so if the leauge couldnt give him the deal at the time, and he was told that next season he would receive "X" amount of dollars, then he should have gotten that in writing from the club at that time. then there would have been no issues at all. cann would have gotten the money he deserves and it wouldnt have turned into a big public clusterfuck.

my point being (again) get your shit on paper, as thats something to fall back on. thats business. not pretty, but reality.


I'll repeat, again, the deal couldn't be in writing because it would be seen by the league as a violation of its salary cap rules. The league doesn't allow teams to sign contracts with players where they make $50k one year to get under the cap only to make $300k the next year when there's more cap space. You can't blame Cann (or even TFC for that matter) for not getting the deal in writing because the league wouldn't approve it. Instead they did what other teams do, they made a side agreement.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 11:41 AM
Who said they didnt count?

If you go through the threads about Winter everything is about how good players don't make good coaches when Winter supporters pump up his playing credentials.

I'd like a combination of the two (playing and coaching credentials) but it's not like top notch coaches are jumping at the chance at coming to MLS.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:42 AM
I mean Diego Maradona has just been hired as the coach of Al Wasl FC.

TFC should have hired him.

That would be a tough call for him. There's more corruption, bribes and better coke in Dubai so that's a plus for Al Wasi, but the fast food and donuts are better here.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I didn't accuse you of being high and mighty, I said don't get high and mighty over the team and player having an agreement that side-stepped the league's salary cap rules because they happen all the time.

QUOTE]
so if the leauge couldnt give him the deal at the time, and he was told that next season he would receive "X" amount of dollars, then he should have gotten that in writing from the club at that time. then there would have been no issues at all. cann would have gotten the money he deserves and it wouldnt have turned into a big public clusterfuck.

my point being (again) get your shit on paper, as thats something to fall back on. thats business. not pretty, but reality.


I'll repeat, again, the deal couldn't be in writing because it would be seen by the league as a violation of its salary cap rules. The league doesn't allow teams to sign contracts with players where they make $50k one year to get under the cap only to make $300k the next year when there's more cap space. You can't blame Cann (or even TFC for that matter) for not getting the deal in writing because the league wouldn't approve it. Instead they did what other teams do, they made a side agreement.[/quote]

a side agreement never put on paper. thats my point.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
but fine, take away his experience as a player, which I still think is relevant because I'm familiar with the winning culture that he was a part of, and actually saw him play live.

but take that away, and you still have:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/United_States) New England Revolution

US Open Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/US_Open_Cup) 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) 2002
MLS Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Cup) Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/North_American_SuperLiga) 2008
and Rocker thinks thats not a good resume for a coach, and that a much less decorated ex player with ZERO coaching honours because he has never actually been a head coach before, was a better fit to manage this team.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
a side agreement never put on paper. thats my point.


Some businesses live and die by their side agreements. Let's hope professional soccer isn't one of them...

Parkdale
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
^ and that was your 100th post. Welcome to the darkside


:scarf:

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 11:48 AM
a side agreement never put on paper. thats my point.

...a side agreement that couldn't be put on paper because it was a violation of the league's salary cap rules. That's my point. A contract made of an illegal transaction has no legal value. If a drug dealer gives you coke today on the promise that you'll pay him next week and you sign a contract stating that, it's not a legally enforceable contract - so what's the point of signing it.

If Cann got their deal in writing, so what? Its not like he could have sued them into honouring an illegal deal.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 11:52 AM
but fine, take away his experience as a player, which I still think is relevant because I'm familiar with the winning culture that he was a part of, and actually saw him play live.

but take that away, and you still have:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/United_States) New England Revolution

US Open Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/US_Open_Cup) 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) 2002
MLS Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Cup) Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/North_American_SuperLiga) 2008

and Rocker thinks thats not a good resume for a coach, and that a much less decorated ex player with ZERO coaching honours because he has never actually been a head coach before, was a better fit to manage this team.

That's fine but guys like Nicol and Kreis weren't coaches until they took over a MLS side. Sigi Schmid was a college coach before coming to MLS, which is the closest thing in the past to an academy team in North America. Same with Schellas Hyndman. Colorado was Gary Smith's first head coaching gig and they won the MLS Cup.

It's not like you're going to get Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, or Pep banging on doors to come here.

I mean the Metrostars tried to get big name coaches and they flopped.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 11:56 AM
http://www.dedroidify.com/blogimages/No-Darth_Vader.jpg
^ and that was your 100th post. Welcome to the darkside


:scarf:

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 11:56 AM
That's fine but guys like Nicol and Kreis weren't coaches until they took over a MLS side. Sigi Schmid was a college coach before coming to MLS, which is the closest thing in the past to an academy team in North America. Same with Schellas Hyndman. Colorado was Gary Smith's first head coaching gig and they won the MLS Cup.

It's not like you're going to get Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, or Pep banging on doors to come here.

I mean the Metrostars tried to get big name coaches and they flopped.

Yes, I think you're right. More important that the coach's record is the person picking the coach. Maybe NE got lucky, but the same owner did a pretty good job picking a coach for his NFL team. Maybe Checketts got lucky in RSL, but he made the decision himself.

MLSE left the decision up to a consultant. Who knows, maybe it'll still turn out to be a great decision, maybe it won't. But no ne at MLSE will be responsible either way.

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 11:56 AM
but fine, take away his experience as a player, which I still think is relevant because I'm familiar with the winning culture that he was a part of, and actually saw him play live.

but take that away, and you still have:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/United_States) New England Revolution

US Open Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/US_Open_Cup) 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) 2002
MLS Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Cup) Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/North_American_SuperLiga) 2008
and Rocker thinks thats not a good resume for a coach, and that a much less decorated ex player with ZERO coaching honours because he has never actually been a head coach before, was a better fit to manage this team.

And you're assuming he would want to come here and have to deal with all these off the table side deals? Plus work under Mariner or some other GM/President figure?

sashavukelich
05-18-2011, 11:57 AM
lol.. Players credentials don't mean a damn thing to their coaching ability. look at SAF, Mourinho, Wenger etc etc.

He's been runner up 4 times (no prize for that), however the US Open CUP and SuperLiga certainly do count!

rocker, i agree with your earlier comment.

rocker
05-18-2011, 11:57 AM
and Rocker thinks thats not a good resume for a coach, and that a much less decorated ex player with ZERO coaching honours because he has never actually been a head coach before, was a better fit to manage this team.

Dude, relax. You don't seem to understand the way I argue.

I wasn't saying "What has Nicol won?" as coach to be a troll. I was contradicting Roogsy's implication that trophies matter in judging a coach. This helps your argument on Nicol, since he never won anything big as a coach.

I know it's a very subtle argument, but I hope you understand that I *like* Steve Nicol. But saying someone is not worthy as a coach because they haven't won as many trophies as the next time is dumb. Nicol never won MLS Cup, so he's a worse coach than Dominic Kinnear? Of course not.

Understand now?

I would have hired Nicol before I would have hired Winter, that's for damn sure. If you remember, I was saying the same thing last year. But I would hire Schmidt and Arena before I would hire Nicol, because both of them have succeeded (had good teams.. forget this trophy talk) at multiple MLS teams. Nicol has done pretty well, but he hasn't done well in the "new era" and hasn't done well at more than one team. So he's a slightly worse option than Schdmit or Arena.

None of these guys were probably available tho.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 12:05 PM
...a side agreement that couldn't be put on paper because it was a violation of the league's salary cap rules. That's my point. A contract made of an illegal transaction has no legal value. If a drug dealer gives you coke today on the promise that you'll pay him next week and you sign a contract stating that, it's not a legally enforceable contract - so what's the point of signing it.

If Cann got their deal in writing, so what? Its not like he could have sued them into honouring an illegal deal.

so the club cannot make a written agreement on a salary promised for next season that does fall within the salary cap? in that case its the league rules that screwed Cann no?

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 12:05 PM
and sparky, i am now waiting for my honoured member rpb mug, you can send it to my office ;)

Whoop
05-18-2011, 12:08 PM
Yes, I think you're right. More important that the coach's record is the person picking the coach. Maybe NE got lucky, but the same owner did a pretty good job picking a coach for his NFL team. Maybe Checketts got lucky in RSL, but he made the decision himself.

MLSE left the decision up to a consultant. Who knows, maybe it'll still turn out to be a great decision, maybe it won't. But no ne at MLSE will be responsible either way.

Belichick was a flop in Cleveland and a lot of the credit for the Patriots success should go to Scott Pioli who was the Director of Player Personnel for much of Belichick's tenure in New England.

And Kraft had the team for six years before hiring Belichick. He inherited Bill Parcells and the first coach he actually hired, Pete Carroll, was just okay.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
I wonder if the media has inflated the egos of the local players which leads them to act in a selfish and self-entitled way?
This isn't the first time we've heard about this from a coach so there must be at least some truth to this opinion.


Why does this only work one way but not the other?

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 12:24 PM
so the club cannot make a written agreement on a salary promised for next season that does fall within the salary cap? in that case its the league rules that screwed Cann no?

It's more complicated, and arbitrary, than that. The league approves all deals. The league would approve a deal that sees a player get a raise in the second year of a two year contract (when more cap space was available), but not one that it viewed as an attempt to violate the league's salary cap rules. For example, if a team already had 3 DPs (the limit) the league wouldn't approve a deal where a DP calibre player signed a 2 year deal where he made league minimum one year and $10 million the next (when on of the team's exisiting DPs contract expired).

The league's rules didn't screw over Cann. TFC not honouring its agreement screwed over Cann. The fact that both Cann and TFC were equally guilty of conspiring to circumvent the league's cap rules is a different issue althogether. This isn't a case of the league stepping in and snuffing the side deal, it's a case of TFC not honouring it over a disputed $10k.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:25 PM
Dude, relax. You don't seem to understand the way I argue.

I wasn't saying "What has Nicol won?" as coach to be a troll. I was contradicting Roogsy's implication that trophies matter in judging a coach. This helps your argument on Nicol, since he never won anything big as a coach.

I know it's a very subtle argument, but I hope you understand that I *like* Steve Nicol. But saying someone is not worthy as a coach because they haven't won as many trophies as the next time is dumb. Nicol never won MLS Cup, so he's a worse coach than Dominic Kinnear? Of course not.

Understand now?

I would have hired Nicol before I would have hired Winter, that's for damn sure. If you remember, I was saying the same thing last year. But I would hire Schmidt and Arena before I would hire Nicol, because both of them have succeeded (had good teams.. forget this trophy talk) at multiple MLS teams. Nicol has done pretty well, but he hasn't done well in the "new era" and hasn't done well at more than one team. So he's a slightly worse option than Schdmit or Arena.

None of these guys were probably available tho.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, when filling coaching positions, on a team that has had very little solid coaching for 4 years straight, is the sensible thing to go out and hire someone who has never coached at this level? Trophies are an indication of success. They don't guarantee anything and sure, you can decide to develop your own coach, but is that what an organization that is losing fans by the week should do? Take a punt on an unproven coach?

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 12:27 PM
And you're assuming he would want to come here and have to deal with all these off the table side deals? Plus work under Mariner or some other GM/President figure?

No I was countering Rockers point that Nicol hasnt really won anything so would likely be a poor choice.

Availability wasnt mentioned in the discussion

Whoop
05-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I'd be interested to know who was available AND interested in coaching TFC.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:32 PM
It's more complicated, and arbitrary, than that. The league approves all deals. The league would approve a deal that sees a player get a raise in the second year of a two year contract (when more cap space was available), but not one that it viewed as an attempt to violate the league's salary cap rules. For example, if a team already had 3 DPs (the limit) the league wouldn't approve a deal where a DP calibre player signed a 2 year deal where he made league minimum one year and $10 million the next (when on of the team's exisiting DPs contract expired).

The league's rules didn't screw over Cann. TFC not honouring its agreement screwed over Cann. The fact that both Cann and TFC were equally guilty of conspiring to circumvent the league's cap rules is a different issue althogether. This isn't a case of the league stepping in and snuffing the side deal, it's a case of TFC not honouring it over a disputed $10k.

I think this can all be boiled down to one basic point:

Is it unethical for the team to make promises that they don't intend on keeping? And please spare me the argument that it was the former GM that made these promises and is now gone. Mo represented TFC. He signed contracts on behalf of TFC. As far as these players are concerned, it was TFC that was making the promises.

So the question is, did these players sign contracts under false pretenses? Yes or no?

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 12:35 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. However, when filling coaching positions, on a team that has had very little solid coaching for 4 years straight, is the sensible thing to go out and hire someone who has never coached at this level? Trophies are an indication of success. They don't guarantee anything and sure, you can decide to develop your own coach, but is that what an organization that is losing fans by the week should do? Take a punt on an unproven coach?

And really, if it was just to coach that would be one thing, but they had to go and include all this talk about "building a culture." It doesn't really seem fair to give that job to a guy with so little experience and not hire someone above him, even as a consultant, kind of like Scotty Bowman with the Black Hawks (I mean, I know they hired a consultant but Bowman actually goes to games).

It would be as crazy as handing over the building of an entire expansion team to a guy who'd never even been a GM before, no one would do that.

FreekAce
05-18-2011, 12:35 PM
It's more complicated, and arbitrary, than that. The league approves all deals. The league would approve a deal that sees a player get a raise in the second year of a two year contract (when more cap space was available), but not one that it viewed as an attempt to violate the league's salary cap rules. For example, if a team already had 3 DPs (the limit) the league wouldn't approve a deal where a DP calibre player signed a 2 year deal where he made league minimum one year and $10 million the next (when on of the team's exisiting DPs contract expired).

The league's rules didn't screw over Cann. TFC not honouring its agreement screwed over Cann. The fact that both Cann and TFC were equally guilty of conspiring to circumvent the league's cap rules is a different issue althogether. This isn't a case of the league stepping in and snuffing the side deal, it's a case of TFC not honouring it over a disputed $10k.

fair enough. (or not in Cann's case), was the salary the club disputed a known number, or is it a cann said/club said situation?

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:39 PM
And really, if it was just to coach that would be one thing, but they had to go and include all this talk about "building a culture." It doesn't really seem fair to give that job to a guy with so little experience and not hire someone above him, even as a consultant, kind of like Scotty Bowman with the Black Hawks (I mean, I know they hired a consultant but Bowman actually goes to games).

It would be as crazy as handing over the building of an entire expansion team to a guy who'd never even been a GM before, no one would do that.


Unless TFC is under the impression that it was Winter that "built" the culture around Ajax?

If Winter was brought here to build something, wouldn't his resumé have to include experience in actually building something?

When I go out and land business on behalf of my firm, I take my history and performance numbers with me. Going without is ridiculous, I will never win the business and the business I do win is because of my history. They obviously don't do it because of my sparkling personality. To me that's just sensible, especially since Sports IS about PERFORMANCE moreso than any other industry! In the truest sense really. And yet, we give the job to someone who hasn't proven squat as a coach.

Not that I think he will fail. But I am confused why there is so much confidence that he will succeed! How about we demand more evidence than simply seeing a team on the field that can field two passes together. That's the silliest standard of "progress" I have heard. People were saying the same thing about Carver, Cummins, Preki, Dasovic and now Winter. It doesn't mean anything.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 12:45 PM
fair enough. (or not in Cann's case), was the salary the club disputed a known number, or is it a cann said/club said situation?

The disagreement was over $10k. In the club's eyes they owed him $160k. In Cann's eyes they owed him $170k. The dispute comes from MLS differences between "base salary" and "guaranteed compensation". When working out what the team owed Cann, they wanted to factor in all things - bonuses, the guaranteed compensation figure etc (ie everything that they paid out to him) and Cann wanted to base it on his base salary. The difference ended up being $10k.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. However, when filling coaching positions, on a team that has had very little solid coaching for 4 years straight, is the sensible thing to go out and hire someone who has never coached at this level? Trophies are an indication of success. They don't guarantee anything and sure, you can decide to develop your own coach, but is that what an organization that is losing fans by the week should do? Take a punt on an unproven coach?

This is a valid question, but as Whoop stated, I seriously doubt that the list of potential coaching candidates in the off season included established coaches with a remarkable track record at this level. We have to be cognisant of the fact that the most ideal candidates with MLS experience were all under contract with other MLS clubs.

Last season, TFC decided to hire a coach with MLS experience and a decent record in the league and it unfortunately backfired.

In the short term, the hiring of the new management regime appears to be a risky proposition because of the abysmal history of the franchise. Nontheless, in retrospect, the combination of Mariner, Winter, and DeClerk provide a fairly impressive wealth of knowledge and experience to build a solid foundation for the future for the franchise.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:47 PM
^ So in essence, beggers can't be choosers?

That's not reassuring my friend.

rocker
05-18-2011, 12:47 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. However, when filling coaching positions, on a team that has had very little solid coaching for 4 years straight, is the sensible thing to go out and hire someone who has never coached at this level? Trophies are an indication of success. They don't guarantee anything and sure, you can decide to develop your own coach, but is that what an organization that is losing fans by the week should do? Take a punt on an unproven coach?

Well, RSL did it and it worked. NE did it and it worked (NE sucked before Nicol arrived and Nicol had no experience coaching at this level). New England got immediate results. RSL got results after a period of a couple seasons.

I wanted someone experienced too (I was calling for this last fall). I knew squat about Winter. I have not "approved" of Winter yet because I cannot judge someone on so few games played. In other words, i think the jury is out on Winter. I see glimpses of good things, but I will wait until the end of the season to decide if taking a punt on an unproven coach is worth it.

All great coaches, however, started somewhere. And some of the best in this league coached at the lesser college level before someone gave them an MLS job.

There's no sense rehashing this every week with every result, though. I'm done talking about this. Winter is hired. we must live with it. Schmidt took 3 years, completely dismantling CBus's roster, to succeed, Kreis took 2 years, completely dismantled RSL's roster, to succeed. We just have to wait now -- what else can we do?

Section 117
05-18-2011, 12:50 PM
Roogsy any coach has to be a good teacher of their system regardless of where they coach. Sir Alex is a perfect example many players have come and gone while he was in charge and the thing that remains the same is the system and the coach. He teaches and implements the players who to his system and look at the results. BTW I am not comparing the two.

That being said I understand the level of frustration most fans have as many expect to have instant results once the changes were made. This is next impossible to happen given
the boat of garbage players that he was with. hence why I stated this up coming off season as being crucial. I know many people don't want to hear this but as per my conversations with a few high level coaches. They have noticed a difference but it is going to taken time

On the subject of Nicol who is to say that he wants to leave where he is at. There is no gaurentee that he could change this. Also coaches from Europe aren't a guarantee either so to given the title of coach and technical director I think Winter is the right person

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 12:53 PM
Well, RSL did it and it worked. NE did it and it worked (NE sucked before Nicol arrived and Nicol had no experience at this level). New England got immediate results. RSL got results after a period of a couple seasons.

The point isn't that a new coach can never be successfull, it's why would a team defined by turmoil not turn to an experienced coach? And why is their blind faith in Winter? By no means am I writing off Winter as a coach, but some people see him as the saviour who can do no wrong (and ignore the mistakes that he's already made).

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 12:56 PM
That being said I understand the level of frustration most fans have as many expect to have instant results once the changes were made. This is next impossible to happen given
the boat of garbage players that he was with. hence why I stated this up coming off season as being crucial. I know many people don't want to hear this but as per my conversations with a few high level coaches. They have noticed a difference but it is going to taken time


For all of my criticisms, I still like Winter as a coach and see glimpses of what he's trying to do.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 12:59 PM
^ So in essence, beggers can't be choosers?

That's not reassuring my friend.

In essence, yes. TFC is still in it's infancy stages as a franchise, and the league itself is still in the process of establishing itself as a preferred destination for players and coaches with a proven pedigree.

The most pertinent point that was made earlier in the thread is that all of the successful coaches in the history of MLS had virtually no track record of success at this level prior to being given the chance to coach in this league. It's the unfortunate reality that MLS clubs face for the time being.

Perhaps in 10 years, candidates with substantial coaching pedigrees will be lining up to coach in the top MLS markets.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 12:59 PM
Well, RSL did it and it worked. NE did it and it worked (NE sucked before Nicol arrived and Nicol had no experience coaching at this level). New England got immediate results. RSL got results after a period of a couple seasons.

I wanted someone experienced too (I was calling for this last fall). I knew squat about Winter. I have not "approved" of Winter yet because I cannot judge someone on so few games played. In other words, i think the jury is out on Winter. I see glimpses of good things, but I will wait until the end of the season to decide if taking a punt on an unproven coach is worth it.

All great coaches, however, started somewhere. And some of the best in this league coached at the lesser college level before someone gave them an MLS job.

There's no sense rehashing this every week with every result, though. I'm done talking about this. Winter is hired. we must live with it. Schmidt took 3 years, completely dismantling CBus's roster, to succeed, Kreis took 2 years, completely dismantled RSL's roster, to succeed. We just have to wait now -- what else can we do?

The difference with RSL is that they always had intended on grooming Kreis into the role, they just got pushed into it a year too early. Kreis has been learning the ropes around MLS for a long time, from playing in it to player-coaching. This is his league, he knows what works, he has seen what it takes to win here. And as a player, player-coach then coach, he has earned the respect of both management above him and players below him. He generated a culture of comraderie and teamplay that has created one of the most positive lockerrooms in all of MLS.

Winter either brings none of those things (on the league side) nor has proven he can do the others (yet admittedly). Grooming a coach from nothing over the years is different than bringing in someone from way outside somewhere else, also from nothing. All great coaches do have to start somewhere, I agree, but for every great coach there are tens, probably hundreds of failed coaches. How do you know Winter is not the latter? Are you saying Winter is guaranteed to be a great coach? If so, why? What indications are there that he will be? Because if there is no history of his greatness in coaching, and no guarantees of it coming in the future, then this franchise, one that has made boneheaded move after boneheaded move and lost the confidence of pretty much everyone, has decided to take a gamble/punt on an unproven coach, period. How is that supposed to earn anyone's confidence back? How can we look at this team and say "they are doing sensible things" when their biggest move is to take the biggest risk of the club's history yet?

I simply don't see RSL as a proper comparison for Winter. They had a long-term plan of putting Kreis in place. We were desperate for a coach and basically starting throwing darts at the wall, looked at his playing pedigree and said, "good enough!".

Yes we do have to wait now. But I don't have to sit here and suck Winter's balls over every little accomplishment as evidence of future greatness. Show me something more credible like stringing two wins together back-to-back first before I can even begin to allow myself to believe the hype around here.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:00 PM
The point isn't that a new coach can never be successfull, it's why would a team defined by turmoil not turn to an experienced coach? And why is their blind faith in Winter? By no means am I writing off Winter as a coach, but some people see him as the saviour who can do no wrong (and ignore the mistakes that he's already made).


This.

flamehawk
05-18-2011, 01:05 PM
...a side agreement that couldn't be put on paper because it was a violation of the league's salary cap rules. That's my point. A contract made of an illegal transaction has no legal value. If a drug dealer gives you coke today on the promise that you'll pay him next week and you sign a contract stating that, it's not a legally enforceable contract - so what's the point of signing it.

If Cann got their deal in writing, so what? Its not like he could have sued them into honouring an illegal deal.

While it may not have legal value, there's still an issue of principle. It doesn't absolve the club of responsibility in terms of ethics.

I don't see how the players can be blamed for being unhappy or distracted about these contract issues. I'd expect any worker to challenge bosses that do this sorta shit.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:06 PM
Roogsy any coach has to be a good teacher of their system regardless of where they coach. Sir Alex is a perfect example many players have come and gone while he was in charge and the thing that remains the same is the system and the coach. He teaches and implements the players who to his system and look at the results. BTW I am not comparing the two.

You are making the classic mistake of taking one critical element of a job and making it the only element. Yes, a coach has to be a good teacher, but a teacher isn't always a good coach. Unless teaching is the only element of successful coaching you are missing many ingredients. And I would argue that some coaches don't even have to be good teachers, at least not at the senior level. If they have other exceptional abilities, such as master tactitian or an incredible motivating capacity.


That being said I understand the level of frustration most fans have as many expect to have instant results once the changes were made. This is next impossible to happen given
the boat of garbage players that he was with. hence why I stated this up coming off season as being crucial. I know many people don't want to hear this but as per my conversations with a few high level coaches. They have noticed a difference but it is going to taken time

Sorry for the use of the term again but this is a strawman argument. Neither myself nor anyone on this side of the argument is looking for "instant results". However, there is a difference between waiting to see results and believing anything coming down the pipe as indications of future results. Skepticism is not a demand of instant results. This team has shown nothing to make us believe that this style can be effective in this league and yet every time we hold more than 50% possession, the posts start flying out about how the system is coming along and it will eventually yield results. There is no evidence that one leads to the other.


On the subject of Nicol who is to say that he wants to leave where he is at. There is no gaurentee that he could change this. Also coaches from Europe aren't a guarantee either so to given the title of coach and technical director I think Winter is the right person

We have gotten distracted with the Nichol argument. Nobody said he was available nor interested in TFC (although I have been told he was interested at one time). Someone asked me who I would have wanted ideally and I responded with a name I think would have fit in Toronto had the circumstances allowed. I will say however, that it's silly to think that since we could not get an ideal candidate like Nichol, that we have to settle for someone with no senior team head coaching experience at all. This team needed an injection of credibility and unfortunately, a sterling playing resumé does not address that need.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 01:16 PM
They had an experience MLS coach in Preki last season and it went to shit.

So normally what happens you go for the opposite.

Perfect example that a lot of people can relate to is Steve Yzerman taking a big risk in hiring a guy like Guy Boucher instead of hiring a retread, recycled coach.

This was TFC's moment of "thinking outside the box". The jury is still out.

I think the "blind faith" aspect is overblown. I think people mistake "give him a chance" to "blind faith". Even experience coaches will makes mistakes.

As for the culture argument it can just take one person to change the culture. Question is a) is the right person to change the culture and b) is it the right culture? But that one person needs to influence the rest or bring in his people or the right people to make the change effectual.

I can only think of one coach in the world right now who was responsible for the current culture at their current club and that's Alex Ferguson, maybe Arsene Wenger. Even then both clubs still have history. I mean the culture at Barcelona wasn't created by Pep.

When the talk of culture was mentioned I figured it would not necessarily mean a culture of winning, because that wasn't going to start right away, but rather a culture of accountability, a culture of demanding excellance, etc which would ultimately lead to or assist in winning.

Maybe Winter/Mariner are trying or have tried but people from older regimes are preventing it from happening or making things worse. Worst case scenario is that those people from the old regimes are changing the new guys.

The more and more stories come out, the more and more it seems like people above and around Winter and Mariner are the bigger issue.

Who's responsible for those guys?

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 01:21 PM
The more and more stories come out, the more and more it seems like people above and around Winter and Mariner are the bigger issue.


I agree with this 100%. We needed regime change, we got a management change.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 01:25 PM
Problem is the regime isn't going to change.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:27 PM
Perfect example that a lot of people can relate to is Steve Yzerman taking a big risk in hiring a guy like Guy Boucher instead of hiring a retread, recycled coach.

But TFC hiring Winter is like Tampa hiring Stevie Y as the coach not the GM. Stevie Y, as a player who has won almost everything, would know what he would have needed as a player. And since Tampa is in a market nobody cares about and had actually won something in the last 10 years, he had enough slack to take a gamble, and you would agree that hiring Boucher was a gamble, one that paid off admittedly, but still a gamble no?

Toronto had no such slack. TFC was in the fishbowl of public opinion, they had massively underperformed since their inception and were struggling with strife, discord and dysfunction. What they needed was a steady hand of a proven leader and coach, what they got instead was a rookie learning the ropes. That's just brutal. If this were any other business, TFC's would be a complete failure and go belly up.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 01:36 PM
But TFC hiring Winter is like Tampa hiring Stevie Y as the coach not the GM. Stevie Y, as a player who has won almost everything, would know what he would have needed as a player. And since Tampa is in a market nobody cares about and had actually won something in the last 10 years, he had enough slack to take a gamble, and you would agree that hiring Boucher was a gamble, one that paid off admittedly, but still a gamble no?

Toronto had no such slack. TFC was in the fishbowl of public opinion, they had massively underperformed since their inception and were struggling with strife, discord and dysfunction. What they needed was a steady hand of a proven leader and coach, what they got instead was a rookie learning the ropes. That's just brutal. If this were any other business, TFC's would be a complete failure and go belly up.

I agree... but again a) who was available and b) who was interested in coming here?

As for public opinion, to us as football supporters, yes, to the overall Toronto sports landscape, no.

I think the circumstances around Winter/Mariner's hiring is what they're getting punished for. If the town hall debacles and mismanagement of tickets hadn't occurred, people wouldn't be as unhappy.

I think TFC is going belly up, so to speak, not so much about the coaching or player management decisions of Winter/Mariner but rather with everything else around it.

And in that scenario doesn't Jurgen Klinsmann = Steve Yzerman?

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:41 PM
Sort of...Stevie Y has a vested interest in Tampa and their success. Klinsmann has no more vested interest in Toronto. If we blow up...it's no skin off his back. When you have money in the game, you play the game a little differently.

Gazza
05-18-2011, 01:43 PM
Sort of...Stevie Y has a vested interest in Tampa and their success. Klinsmann has no more vested interest in Toronto. If we blow up...it's no skin off his back. When you have money in the game, you play the game a little differently.

Is MLSE still paying Klinsman? Does he still consult for us or add input?

Whoop
05-18-2011, 01:45 PM
Sort of...Stevie Y has a vested interest in Tampa and their success. Klinsmann has no more vested interest in Toronto. If we blow up...it's no skin off his back. When you have money in the game, you play the game a little differently.

That's true.

But you would think if his recommendations were flops it would hurt his "consulting" business?

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 01:46 PM
But TFC hiring Winter is like Tampa hiring Stevie Y as the coach not the GM. Stevie Y, as a player who has won almost everything, would know what he would have needed as a player. And since Tampa is in a market nobody cares about and had actually won something in the last 10 years, he had enough slack to take a gamble, and you would agree that hiring Boucher was a gamble, one that paid off admittedly, but still a gamble no?

Toronto had no such slack. TFC was in the fishbowl of public opinion, they had massively underperformed since their inception and were struggling with strife, discord and dysfunction. What they needed was a steady hand of a proven leader and coach, what they got instead was a rookie learning the ropes. That's just brutal. If this were any other business, TFC's would be a complete failure and go belly up.

Once again, I believe the coaching options were limited, and it is premature to declare success or failure at this point. At the very least, Winter deserves to be judged based on his own merits after a reasonable timeframe. I also believe that Paul Mariner provides considerable MLS experience and expertise as a key member of the new management regime, which balances Winter's lack of familiarity with the league.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-18-2011, 01:46 PM
Problem is the regime isn't going to change.

yeah this. people need to accept it.
Just because you want it, doesnt mean its going to happen.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
That's true.

But you would think if his recommendations were flops it would hurt his "consulting" business?


With Toronto FC? Nah...they'll just blame it on our poorly run franchise. I doubt the global soccer markets will opt to consider Klinsmann a failure given TFC's history.

ensco
05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
Problem is the regime isn't going to change.

It very well could, and soon. Who knows? Depends on the buyer of MLSE, assuming it sells.

When you put your kids to bed tonight, ask them to pray that the buyer of MLSE has someone senior in their organization that loves soccer, and knows something about it.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:50 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-ViCzX9deHI/TOK6CRsK8TI/AAAAAAAAAfA/tV1Zh2vNsW8/s1600/pray.jpg

Gazza
05-18-2011, 01:51 PM
I wonder if Klinsman could approach the board, or anyone for that matter who is on the oustide looking in, and explain to them why they're failing.

Upper Management incompetence and the management structure is killing this franchise.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 01:52 PM
What they needed was a steady hand of a proven leader and coach, what they got instead was a rookie learning the ropes.

ITs amazing that of all the people on this board, you and I can see this and are pointing it out while everybody else is saying 'you need to give this guy a chance.'

Well of course we need to give him a chance, he's obviously never done this before.

fucking hell eh? Isnt that great! I cant think of a job that I didnt make a few terrible mistakes while I was learning the basics.

You want to support a guy while he relies on trial and error, you all sound like oversupportive parents.

"you're excellent, aron, dont let anybody tell you different, your team is improving, anyone can see that, you're going to be the best coach in the league one day now have some cocoa"

Pookie
05-18-2011, 01:53 PM
Why does this only work one way but not the other?

Well, according to you, it pretty much only works the other way... doesn't it?

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Well, according to you, it pretty much only works the other way... doesn't it?


Nope. Next!

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 01:58 PM
Well of course we need to give him a chance, he's obviously never done this before.


Yup...and of course now that he has the job we have no choice but to wait to see how it turns out. Dropping a 5 or 6th coach (whatever it is, I've lost count) at this point is ridiculous. We are now forced to see this gamble through. Lord help us if he was the wrong choice.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 01:59 PM
ITs amazing that of all the people on this board, you and I can see this and are pointing it out while everybody else is saying 'you need to give this guy a chance.'

Well of course we need to give him a chance, he's obviously never done this before.

fucking hell eh? Isnt that great! I cant think of a job that I didnt make a few terrible mistakes while I was learning the basics.

You want to support a guy while he relies on trial and error, you all sound like oversupportive parents.

"you're excellent, aron, dont let anybody tell you different, your team is improving, anyone can see that, you're going to be the best coach in the league one day now have some cocoa"

What do you suggest?

Let's all assume that there was a plethora of world class, proven coaching candidates that TFC didn't consider during the hiring process, and in the interim, let's prematurely chastise the new management regime before they have had a chance to rebuild the roster and implement their vision for the franchise.

Sure, that sounds reasonable...

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 02:01 PM
With Toronto FC? Nah...they'll just blame it on our poorly run franchise. I doubt the global soccer markets will opt to consider Klinsmann a failure given TFC's history.


Yes, there are so many reasons that can be given here. the thing is, we really have no idea what was the scope of the consulting. There was all this talk about a whole nre system and a whole new culture and a completely different direction for the team and so on and what we got was the former assistant coach of New England and a youth team coach. Sure, maybe they'll be incrediby successful here, but if they aren't it's on MLSE, not the consultant. Either they didn't pay for much consulting or they didn't demand enough for what they did pay for.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:02 PM
ITs amazing that of all the people on this board, you and I can see this and are pointing it out while everybody else is saying 'you need to give this guy a chance.'

Well of course we need to give him a chance, he's obviously never done this before.

fucking hell eh? Isnt that great! I cant think of a job that I didnt make a few terrible mistakes while I was learning the basics.

You want to support a guy while he relies on trial and error, you all sound like oversupportive parents.

"you're excellent, aron, dont let anybody tell you different, your team is improving, anyone can see that, you're going to be the best coach in the league one day now have some cocoa"


Yup...and of course now that he has the job we have no choice but to wait to see how it turns out. Dropping a 5 or 6th coach (whatever it is, I've lost count) at this point is ridiculous. We are now forced to see this gamble through. Lord help us if he was the wrong choice.

I agree with the both of you but like Roogsy says... at this point we have no choice but to wait to see how it turns out.

I'm just hoping it works out. But apparently that means I have blind faith in the guy.

CretanBull
05-18-2011, 02:05 PM
I agree with the both of you but like Roogsy says... at this point we have no choice but to wait to see how it turns out.

I'm just hoping it works out. But apparently that means I have blind faith in the guy.

That should be our club motto!

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:09 PM
The problem is the club wasn't properly run from the start.

Who is still here from the start?

brad
05-18-2011, 02:22 PM
The problem is the club wasn't properly run from the start.

Who is still here from the start?

I believe Nana is the only one.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 02:24 PM
They had an experience MLS coach in Preki last season and it went to shit.

This is a cop-out argument, that gets pulled out every time MLS experience is mentioned.

Preki's resume was hardly expansive and his most notable achievement was getting 'coach of the year' for making it into the playoffs with Chivas.

Chivas then got rid of him cause they didnt like him or something.

So yeah, I guess he stacks up with the other experienced names weve been discussing, you know the ones with track records.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:26 PM
Well, who else has MLS experience that was available? Coach of the Year counts for something, no? I mean Nicol has one.

He had more MLS coaching experience than Nicol, Kreis, Gary Smith, Hyndman joined their respective clubs.

And Mariner's MLS experience is thrown out the window?

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Well, who else has MLS experience that was available? Coach of the Year counts for something, no? I mean Nicol has one.

He had more MLS coaching experience than Nicol, Kreis, Gary Smith, Hyndman joined their respective clubs.

And Mariner's MLS experience is thrown out the window?

Just face it, we're MLSE apologists and the organization is destined for failure.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:39 PM
The problem that TFC faces and where they fucked up and where their past comes back to haunt them is that stability is so important in sports. If Winter wasn't the 6th coach in 5 years, he would have a shorter leash... but because they've gone through so many coaches... they have no choice but to stay the course.

If they were to gas Winter mid-season... your pool of coaches who want to come to TFC will diminish and will consist of the runner up of the FIFA 11 Gaming World Cup, Bitchy and Dale Mtichell.

Jeffro
05-18-2011, 02:40 PM
That's fine but guys like Nicol and Kreis weren't coaches until they took over a MLS side. Sigi Schmid was a college coach before coming to MLS, which is the closest thing in the past to an academy team in North America. Same with Schellas Hyndman. Colorado was Gary Smith's first head coaching gig and they won the MLS Cup.

It's not like you're going to get Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, or Pep banging on doors to come here.

I mean the Metrostars tried to get big name coaches and they flopped.

Interestingly enough, Pep only managed Barca B before taking the first team job at Barca :)

Gazza
05-18-2011, 02:43 PM
The problem that TFC faces and where they fucked up and where their past comes back to haunt them is that stability is so important in sports. If Winter wasn't the 6th coach in 5 years, he would have a shorter leash... but because they've gone through so many coaches... they have no choice but to stay the course.

If they were to gas Winter mid-season... your pool of coaches who want to come to TFC will diminish and will consist of the runner up of the FIFA 11 Gaming World Cup, Bitchy and Dale Mtichell.

Bring back Dale Mitchell! I miss kick and run football.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:44 PM
Nah, Even Pellerud would be able to get the guys to rip this league to shreds.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 02:49 PM
Sorry for the use of the term again but this is a strawman argument. Neither myself nor anyone on this side of the argument is looking for "instant results". However, there is a difference between waiting to see results and believing anything coming down the pipe as indications of future results. Skepticism is not a demand of instant results. This team has shown nothing to make us believe that this style can be effective in this league and yet every time we hold more than 50% possession, the posts start flying out about how the system is coming along and it will eventually yield results. There is no evidence that one leads to the other.



This is strange. I can just as easily say that there is no evidence to suggest that it doesn't work....unless 10-12 games is enough for people to know that this is a failure.

If that's the case then I guess people can see in to the future.

I find it so frustrating that now...when for the first time the team is trying to build for the future....when they went out and tried to hire someone to help them figure things out and select the right people to turn things around....now people have lost all patience.

I don't get it.

And if you, or anyone else is going to reply by saying something like:

"This club has no idea how to turn things around or fix things. The club and the owners are completely fucked in that regard"

Then fine. All I can do is disagree but it would really beg the question:

"Why still support them?"

This is question is not just for you Roogsy but:

If you really think that this club is beyond repair from top to bottom...then what options do you have besides grinning and bearing it or not supporting them?

If you really think that they're that fucked up, what's the point?

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Problem is the regime isn't going to change.

No, but it could be made bigger. Winter is likely as good a coach as any, as good as Kreis and Nicol and any of them. The problem is the situation he has to work in and what's being asked of him.

I've really only seen expansion teams start up in hockey but some of them, like the Florida Panthers, borught in guys like Bill Torrey and became respectable very quickly (it may not have lasted, but succsession is a different issue ;)).

TFC could have brought in someone like that from the start. Hell, they could have had Mo coach if the league wanted them to hire him so badly, but they never should have let him try to do everything. And they're still playing catch up from that and still don't have a senior executive to set the tone for the organization.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 02:55 PM
^^
I agree with a lot of that.

There wasn't a football team in place to run the team with Mo.

But the haphazard way TFC is being/has been run is probably Winter/Mariner's biggest hindrance.

Maybe a new owner might change things but you can't hold onto that hope either.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 02:56 PM
The problem is the club wasn't properly run from the start.

Who is still here from the start?

I can tell you who.

The supporters.

And I firmly believe that we are part of the problem.

We....collectively and individually know sweet fuck all about how to make this team (or any team for that matter) a success.

And the shittier this club became, the more the supporters began to believe that we know what's right and wrong for this club.

Unfortunately we know jack shit.

We have preferences on what we'd like to see but none of us have any credentials to indicate that we could make this club a success on the field.

We have plenty of people who can argue the shit out a subject, and people who know marketing and contracts and tactics and football history....but the sum of those parts is sweet fuck all.

The club has gone out and consulted with a guy like Jurgen Klinsmann and he pointed out guys like Aron Winter and Paul Mariner.

I want to give them a chance because, for the first time, the decsions seem to be made in an effort to make the product on the field better.

If people are so upset about the past and so cynical about the future that they can't see beyond 10-12 games...then so be it.

BUT...if the day comes that this team is successful, it will be inspite of the naysayers and that's shameful.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 03:05 PM
I can tell you who.

The supporters.

And I firmly believe that we are part of the problem.

The club has gone out and consulted with a guy like Jurgen Klinsmann and he pointed out guys like Aron Winter and Paul Mariner.



If the supporters are part of the problem they're a very small part. And the only reason they're a part of the problem is the same reason Leaf fans are a part of the problem - this ownership listens to them. And, as you say, because we know squat we send out mixed and pointless messages but they try to react to them anyway. There were threads on here to sign JDG so that's who they signed.

And as for what the consultant recommended, we actually have no idea what he said. For all we know he made ten recommendations and they did two of them (which seems be the case in every consultation I've seen implemented in other places).

Azerban
05-18-2011, 03:05 PM
I can tell you who.

The supporters.

And I firmly believe that we are part of the problem.

durf

durf

durf


yeah, i too remember that time i got the call from TFC FO and they were like "hey, azerban, why don't you come on down and pick our next starting XI and throw down some marketing concepts" and then we did a poo against vancouver and they came out with a special edition donut

that was me guys, sorry, lets all talk about all the things we did to personally ruin this team

trane
05-18-2011, 03:08 PM
Voodoodaddy,

I agree with this in that for the first time, we seem to have people who have a visision, so for me this is like season one. We are rebuilding, despite never realy having anything to rebuild.

Despite the results I believe we are going in the right direction. This believe will fade if our form is not improving. But for now it persists.


But I too hardly blame the supporters, it was not our task to build a club.

ensco
05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
^Azerban, I have coffee coming out my nose. lol

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 03:14 PM
If the supporters are part of the problem they're a very small part. And the only reason they're a part of the problem is the same reason Leaf fans are a part of the problem - this ownership listens to them. And, as you say, because we know squat we send out mixed and pointless messages but they try to react to them anyway. There were threads on here to sign JDG so that's who they signed.

And as for what the consultant recommended, we actually have no idea what he said. For all we know he made ten recommendations and they did two of them (which seems be the case in every consultation I've seen implemented in other places).

Fair enough...but you've spoken to my very first point.

Ownerships first mistake was listening to us. They've placated us because they're afraid of the bottom line. They bought into the notion that maintaing the atmosphere which made TFC an intital success was the way to keep the club successful.

So they give the supporters a voice to make sure that the drums and songs continue.

Unfortunately they forgot that people would only take a shitty product for so long and that the atmosphere was only there early on because it was new. Once the novelty of the expansion team wore off all we'd have left to cheer for was the product on the field.

But by then it was too late.

Now it's some circus high wire act trying to balance the expectations of the fans with wants and needs of the people they've hired to right the ship.

It's a messed up situation.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 03:15 PM
yeah, i too remember that time i got the call from TFC FO and they were like "hey, azerban, why don't you come on down and pick our next starting XI and throw down some marketing concepts" and then we did a poo against vancouver and they came out with a special edition donut

that was me guys, sorry, lets all talk about all the things we did to personally ruin this team


As usual...you chime in with your ever so witty retorts that add sweet fuck all to the disucssion.

Thanks.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 03:18 PM
Voodoodaddy,

I agree with this in that for the first time, we seem to have people who have a visision, so for me this is like season one. We are rebuilding, despite never realy having anything to rebuild.

Despite the results I believe we are going in the right direction. This believe will fade if our form is not improving. But for now it persists.


But I too hardly blame the supporters, it was not our task to build a club.

I never said it was our task to build the club. I'm just trying to say that we all think we know what we're talking about, but we don't.

We're being hyper critical of everything because of the past and ignoring the fact that we may have people in charge of the squad that know what they're doing.

It's not happening overnight so we go back to patting ourselves on the back with "I told you sos".

Its ridiculous.

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 03:24 PM
Fair enough...but you've spoken to my very first point.

Ownerships first mistake was listening to us. They've placated us because they're afraid of the bottom line. They bought into the notion that maintaing the atmosphere which made TFC an intital success was the way to keep the club successful.

So they give the supporters a voice to make sure that the drums and songs continue.

Unfortunately they forgot that people would only take a shitty product for so long and that the atmosphere was only there early on because it was new. Once the novelty of the expansion team wore off all we'd have left to cheer for was the product on the field.

But by then it was too late.

Now it's some circus high wire act trying to balance the expectations of the fans with wants and needs of the people they've hired to right the ship.

It's a messed up situation.


But it doesn't need to be messed up. It just leadership. Winter and Mariner may have a fantastic vision for the club but they still need one more guy in a more senior position to implement it.

As I said, for all we know that was part of the consultant's report.

The ownership, of course, picks and chooses what to listen to. It's just like the way the Leafs were run, signing fan favourites to crazy contracts, bringing guys like Gilmour and Clark back after they were finished - it's the easiest kind of supporter demands to appease.

Like signing JDG becuse there were threads on here.

So, I live in hope that if we keep demanding they straighten this mess out they might. I'd rather do that than walk away from it.

Azerban
05-18-2011, 03:28 PM
As usual...you chime in with your ever so witty retorts that add sweet fuck all to the disucssion.

Thanks.

no prob

sorry if i can't understand how you looked at all of the constants over the last 5 years, which are comprehensively listed thusly;


Nana
Us
A bunch of fat money-grubbing cunts
Purolator delivering the game ball


and decided that we're the problem

and now you're going on about how the worst thing they did is allowing us to unionize, so that they now have to listen to us, the paying customers

how about taking the whole corporate philosophy that led to them "[forgetting] that people would only take a shitty product for so long", and make that the worst thing

no, maybe if we didn't love so much they wouldn't hit us so hard

Whoop
05-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Some have argued that the acquisitions of DeRo and JDG were done to placate the supporters as that's who the supporters wanted.

Pookie
05-18-2011, 03:31 PM
This is where you lose all credibility. Are you saying DeRo is not playing a different role in NY than he was here? Have you even watched a NY game?

I'd love it if you could argue objectively before you make a blanket statement regarding my "credibility" and DeRo's new role. You know, using examples other than your "view" that he is playing a different role in NY?

For Example #1 NYRB brought him because he was "dangerous from the attacking third." Doesn't that imply a threat to score?

For Example #2: DeRo is averaging over 2 shots per game in NY, 2.16 to be exact. At that rate he will finish with roughly 60 shots while wearing a Red Bull kit. His past 2 seasons with Toronto have registered MLS totals of 59 shots and 55 shots respectively.

It appears that he is shooting at a similar pace to what he did in Toronto.

If he is shooting just as much, are these "different role" shots? Special shots that are weaker and designed to generate rebounds? Shots that were really just superhuman hard passes that the statistician miscounted as shots?

If his role were different, and the expectations were to feed NY's strikers, we would expect vastly different stats in the shots department wouldn't we?

tfcleeds
05-18-2011, 03:33 PM
Far be it from me to be a sunshine-pumper - I'm as cynical as most people on this board when it comes to assessing the current situation. But I do agree with the fact that we have to give Winter and Mariner time to see their vision come to fruition. This is Year One all over again, like it or not. The Mo years were a mistake, plain and simple, and we are starting from scratch all over again.

There were bound to be growing pains with the new management, and I think most of us knew that going in. Meaning no playoffs this year for one, and we were going to take our fair share of beatings (DC United as an example). I don't agree with Winter on everything, frankly, I find some of his selection/tactical decisions baffling, but it will do no good to get rid of our sixth coach in five years. It may be hard to grin and bear it, but I'm prepared to see him stay the course. Upper management has made their bed, and now they have to lie in it.

Any change that needs to happen doesn't necessarily involve Winter or Mariner. The change that is required is cleaing out the current FO and bringing in one that knows what the heck they're doing.

Pookie
05-18-2011, 03:34 PM
yeah, i too remember that time i got the call from TFC FO and they were like "hey, azerban, why don't you come on down and pick our next starting XI and throw down some marketing concepts" and then we did a poo against vancouver and they came out with a special edition donut

that was me guys, sorry, lets all talk about all the things we did to personally ruin this team

Funny.

Though in fairness, Mo was quoted as saying that he felt that the Designated Player needed to be Canadian.

Unless we were right up against a quota, there was no reason for that statement other than to make the fans "happy".

Azerban
05-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Unless we were right up against a quota, there was no reason for that statement other than to make the fans "happy".

how about "it was a relatively cheap, easy option" that "left more time for 'scouting' trips to brazil"

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Funny.

Though in fairness, Mo was quoted as saying that he felt that the Designated Player needed to be Canadian.

Unless we were right up against a quota, there was no reason for that statement other than to make the fans "happy".

Yes, just like he first said they'd sign a DP and then said that all the tickets were sold so they didn't need to. Those are clearly statements from the marketing department and that's always been the problem. Whether he was given the ordes explicitly or felt he needed to please the fans to keep his job it's not the right way to run a team.

The whole DeRo thing probably went on for so long because the marketing department wanted him here. As was said many times during the 'discussions' on here, outside of this forum DeRo wasn't disliked.

Azerban
05-18-2011, 03:43 PM
and really if you're basing transfer policy solely on the chatter of 5% of a group that represents 5% of your stadium capacity then i don't know what to say

except that maybe you're bad at your job

denime
05-18-2011, 03:43 PM
WOW,I was 100% sure I was reading this thread: http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27997

Guys you are repeating your self thread after thread.

Lately every thread end up being 2-3 posters vs rest of the board. :facepalm:

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 03:44 PM
It was cheap I guess but it would have been easier to sign some big name has-been to a massive contract instead. Remember the dance they had to do to get JDG here?

I also do agree that this was done in some way to make supporters happy as was the Ali G signing because outside of supporters and world football followers, no average Joe fan had a clue who either of these guys were and it sure wasn't to make them happy.

ManUtd4ever
05-18-2011, 03:47 PM
I think we can all rest assured that no more players will be signed based on their popularity within the RPB Forums.

Azerban
05-18-2011, 03:47 PM
It was cheap I guess but it would have been easier to sign some big name has-been to a massive contract instead. Remember the dance they had to do to get JDG here?


Easier, but less cheap. The JDG signing was perfect proportions of both.

And didn't he only come because he literally had zero (0) offers from anywhere else in Europe?

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 03:48 PM
no prob

sorry if i can't understand how you looked at all of the constants over the last 5 years, which are comprehensively listed thusly;


Nana
Us
A bunch of fat money-grubbing cunts
Purolator delivering the game ball


and decided that we're the problem

and now you're going on about how the worst thing they did is allowing us to unionize, so that they now have to listen to us, the paying customers

how about taking the whole corporate philosophy that led to them "[forgetting] that people would only take a shitty product for so long", and make that the worst thing

no, maybe if we didn't love so much they wouldn't hit us so hard

Yup...and like I said...we're PART of the problem.

And they should listen to us...about ticket prices....stadium/seating acesss, banners, songs, and shit like that.

They should have never, ever considered our wants when it comes to the product on the field.

From day one...they should have hired a GM and coach who were going to say: Here's my plan. I don't care what the fans want, or what the media says or anything along those lines. I have a vision to make this team successful and their input is not a part of the equation.

Instead...we salivated over getting guys like JDG and DeRo and they gave in and did it. I'm as guilty as everyone else.

After 3 seasons we screamed for results at any cost. They went out and hired Preki. He said "it's my way or the highway", pissed off some players, which in turn pissed off the supporters but he got some results. The minute the team went from results (which they got at the start of the season-ugly results but results nonetheless) to struggling it was blamed on anti-football and Preki's personality. But what happened to results at any cost?

So they fire him. Players that didn't like him stayed and showed their true colours (ie DeRo and his imaginary cheque) and the club picked the players over the coach they just hired, to placate the supporters.

Then the club holds these "town halls" and idiot Anselmi comes out and says that the club was wrong to hire Preki and they realize that. Now, the supporters who always believed Anselmi was an idiot believe he's less of an idiot.

So the club goes out and hires a guy, based (at least somewhat) on the word of Jurgen Klinsmann and his consulting company. Yay.....we're going to play "total football" with Aron Winter (a former Dutch national player and coach of the Ajax youth system-because buidling through youth is the future ya know) and Paul Mariner, a universally admired ex player and MLS contract/salary manager.

Sweet...we're on our way. Then the contrived drama surrounding DeRo, Cann and Nana and now our once great laid plans are actually the roads to ruins (according to some).

And all of this after 12 games.

Sweeeeeeet!

LOL

Beach_Red
05-18-2011, 03:53 PM
I think we can all rest assured that no more players will be signed based on their popularity within the RPB Forums.


Well, we'll have to wait and see how the team is doing 2/3 of the way through next season. If Winter wants to stay in Toronto, who knows what he'll do to stay. Did he move his family here?

denime
05-18-2011, 03:55 PM
Well, we'll have to wait and see how the team is doing 2/3 of the way through next season. If Winter wants to stay in Toronto, who knows what he'll do to stay. Did he move his family here?

AMEN

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 03:58 PM
WOW,I was 100% sure I was reading this thread: http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27997

Guys you are repeating your self thread after thread.

Lately every thread end up being 2-3 posters vs rest of the board. :facepalm:

As an observer and casual participant on this board it looks like some people are upset that their hero (Dero) got dumped to the Cows by the brass. Ever since April 1st, every post turns to this. It's clearly far too long lingering sour grapes. It is what it is. Management & coaching staff makes decisions on players and we either live with it or shut the fuck up and go cheer for some bandwagon team that's popular at the moment.

For me, I support the club and players of TFC. I may not like what's going on and I may not like all the decisions being made but I will always love my club. If I was from some bottom end burg in Kent County, England or something I would be cheering on whatever Blue Square club was in my area and living with the hardships (and successes) as they came.

Ultra & Proud
05-18-2011, 04:00 PM
So basically if TFC is so shit and apparently everything they do or ever will do is shit then go buy a Galaxy, RSL, or NYRB jersey and get the fuck off TFC supporters forums. Go bother their supporters for a while.

Azerban
05-18-2011, 04:01 PM
They should have never, ever considered our wants when it comes to the product on the field.


I agree with a bunch of your post, but I take issue with this. I don't think they have, and there's no reason to think that they did. I mean, if there's an interview with someone stating "yeah, the only reason we signed JDG and DeRo was due to a very convincing post by Red Patch Boys forums user TFCManchesterRed", I'd love to see it, but I don't think it's true.

You can't just point to us talking about a player, and TFC signing that player, and say we caused it. Correlation != causation. If anything, I believe those signings were due to the utterly pitiful scouting network we had in place, which means that we were talking about the same obvious people that were the entirety of what FO knew about, and not due to some jackass on the internet making a serious, passionate post about transfer targets and then running off to make weiner jokes for 5 months.

If we stopped signing players we talk about, and it seems we have, it's because Winter actually knows a person or two over in the land where they play Real Football, and not because they've decided to stop letting us handle transfer policy (only marketing imagery for now on, boys.)

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 04:05 PM
So the club goes out and hires a guy, based (at least somewhat) on the word of Jurgen Klinsmann and his consulting company. Yay.....we're going to play "total football" with Aron Winter (a former Dutch national player and coach of the Ajax youth system-because buidling through youth is the future ya know) and Paul Mariner, a universally admired ex player and MLS contract/salary manager.

Sweet...we're on our way. Then the contrived drama surrounding DeRo, Cann and Nana and now our once great laid plans are actually the roads to ruins (according to some).

And all of this after 12 games.

Sweeeeeeet!

LOL

Klinsman pointed them in the direction of a local soccer organisation with strong links to Ajax, took his bag of money and laughed his ass off all the way to the bank, from what I can tell.

Ill bet all the money that was funnelled into this "find someone to tell us what to do" project would have been enough to poach a manager who has a track record.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 04:16 PM
So basically if TFC is so shit and apparently everything they do or ever will do is shit then go buy a Galaxy, RSL, or NYRB jersey and get the fuck off TFC supporters forums. Go bother their supporters for a while.

I resent your comment. Ive been supporting this team from the very beginning, pumpinmg money into BMO and there is NOTHING you can tell me about supporting a team, anyway. You have no business whatsoever telling me I should go support a team I have no local connection to, because Im vocal about its mismanagement.

Do you not get it? We want to support a Toronto team because were from/in/near Toronto. However the organisation that bought the rights to a Toronto team, and stand in the way of anyone else doing the same, are treating it and us like a big joke.

The solution is not to go and support LA. For fucks sake, how slow is this?

Tell you what, go and ask a liverpool supporter (in merseyside) who was part of the movement that eventually saw Hicks and Gillette ousted, why he didnt just go and support Manchester United, instead of complaining about the owners.

Ill pay the dental bills.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 04:18 PM
The anger is and should have always been directed at the higher ups at TFC not the players and coaches.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 04:37 PM
AMEN

You seriously mean that up until 2/3 of next season, we have a license to be awful?

Sorry man, people are voting with their asses, however much pontification about system development, youth culture, attractive posession football and other fluffy white shit occurs.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 04:47 PM
Sorry man, people are voting with their asses,

But is that because of the results or ticket prices? Does the shitty weather lately have anything to do with it? Could some people just be fed up with the FO and their attempts at killing atmosphere?

Again, the anger - much like the Liverpool situation or even the United supporters with their green & gold campaign - should be at the higher ups. I don't recall Liverpool or United supporters turning on the coaches or players.

The players and coaches have become scapegoats for where the real anger should be directed towards.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 04:54 PM
Again, the anger - much like the Liverpool situation or even the United supporters with their green & gold campaign - should be at the higher ups. I don't recall Liverpool or United supporters turning on the coaches or players.


Actually, the Liverpool supporters turned on Hodgson in a way that Liverpool supporters have never turned on their managers. They also had a lot of choice words about a few of Hodgson's signings.

Loyalty to the coach is something I feel is important, but first the coach and players have to prove their loyalty to the team and the fans, and if they look like theyd rather be somewhere else, fuck em.

gmacpheetfc
05-18-2011, 04:57 PM
glory hunters

Whoop
05-18-2011, 05:05 PM
I know that supporters turned on Hodgson... but wasn't that because Hodgson was a Gillette/Hicks hire and had rejected Dalglish as a candidate? They inherited Benitez and towards the end of his tenure he started feeling heat from the supporters as well.

But once Fenway bought the team then the anger was directed solely at Hodgson to and then didn't he make the fateful mistake of turning on the supporters?

But until Fenway bought the team, the anger was directed at Gillette and Hicks not Hodgson, no?

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 05:18 PM
Loyalty to the coach is something I feel is important, but first the coach and players have to prove their loyalty to the team and the fans, and if they look like theyd rather be somewhere else, fuck em.

Agreed.

So why not give the coach a chance to show he wants to be here and is loyal?

Whoop
05-18-2011, 05:41 PM
Amen.

From the Dutch correspondent for WFC and FourFourTwo.



jouracule (http://twitter.com/#%21/jouracule) Mohamed Moallim
Unfortunately 'total football' has become a byword for 'pretty passing attacking football'. Has completely lost its original meaning.



jouracule (http://twitter.com/#%21/jouracule) Mohamed Moallim
I reiterate no side theoretically plays 'total football' today or has in the past 2-3 generations.

Unfortunately a lot of naive media, and some supporters, ran with it. Latching on to some moniker that's been hanging over Dutch football since '74. I don't think Winter or Mariner ever uttered the words "total football".

Suds
05-18-2011, 05:47 PM
Amen.

From the Dutch correspondent for WFC and FourFourTwo.





Unfortunately a lot of naive media, and some supporters, ran with it. Latching on to some moniker that's been hanging over Dutch football since '74. I don't think Winter or Mariner ever uttered the words "total football".

They never did as far as I recall. The term "total football" was picked up by the media and used countless times over and over again when reporting on Winter's hiring. It's the Fox News syndrome, say it enough times in the media and people start to think Aaron Winter was going around telling everyone he was bringing Total Football to TFC.

habstfc
05-18-2011, 06:01 PM
Easier, but less cheap. The JDG signing was perfect proportions of both.

And didn't he only come because he literally had zero (0) offers from anywhere else in Europe?

If he had zero offer's from europe or other places he wouldn't have gotten the contract he got here. Nobody's going to give a player 1.8 million with no other offer's on the table. Think about it.

Pachuco
05-18-2011, 06:08 PM
If he had zero offer's from europe or other places he wouldn't have gotten the contract he got here. Nobody's going to give a player 1.8 million with no other offer's on the table. Think about it.

I could also say, if JDG had ANY decent offers he would never have come. He was very clear from the beginning when he turned TFC down that he wanted to play a couple more years in Europe and that money wasn't an object. Think about it!

Oh, and an offer to clean up toilets for Celtic doesn't count as an offer.

De Guzman said openly on the Footy Show three weeks ago that he would like to return to Spain but no club has come any where near that amount of money for the Canadian international. After getting turned down at many clubs in Spain, the De Guzman camp have been working angles at Portsmouth, Tottenham and Celtic but all three clubs expressed very little to no interest.

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2009/07/07/jdg-to-tfc-90-done-but-is-it-really-the-right-deal-for-tfc/

jloome
05-18-2011, 06:12 PM
but fine, take away his experience as a player, which I still think is relevant because I'm familiar with the winning culture that he was a part of, and actually saw him play live.

but take that away, and you still have:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/United_States) New England Revolution

US Open Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/US_Open_Cup) 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Coach_of_the_Year_Award) 2002
MLS Cup (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/MLS_Cup) Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/North_American_SuperLiga) 2008

and Rocker thinks thats not a good resume for a coach, and that a much less decorated ex player with ZERO coaching honours because he has never actually been a head coach before, was a better fit to manage this team.

Actually, whether one's a more rational assumption than the other or not, both positions are assumptions ,since there's no established baseline for what qualifies someone as a good coach.

You could assume that Nicol would be better suited, and it might even get you better odds. But that doesn't make it a sure thing just because Winter has only coached youth teams. (And he has been a head coach; he's been a head coach of youth teams. As someone noted regarding Schellas Hyndman, it's really not that different.)

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 06:14 PM
WOW,I was 100% sure I was reading this thread: http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27997

Guys you are repeating your self thread after thread.

Lately every thread end up being 2-3 posters vs rest of the board. :facepalm:


Depends on the the thread you're in I suppose. But it's good to generalize that way. Either way, if you want to know how things turn out, how about your spend your time reading that thread if you're not going to contribute to this thread. :D

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 06:15 PM
I resent your comment. Ive been supporting this team from the very beginning, pumpinmg money into BMO and there is NOTHING you can tell me about supporting a team, anyway. You have no business whatsoever telling me I should go support a team I have no local connection to, because Im vocal about its mismanagement.

Do you not get it? We want to support a Toronto team because were from/in/near Toronto. However the organisation that bought the rights to a Toronto team, and stand in the way of anyone else doing the same, are treating it and us like a big joke.

The solution is not to go and support LA. For fucks sake, how slow is this?

Tell you what, go and ask a liverpool supporter (in merseyside) who was part of the movement that eventually saw Hicks and Gillette ousted, why he didnt just go and support Manchester United, instead of complaining about the owners.

Ill pay the dental bills.

This is the post that deserve an Amen.

I am also assuming that everyone in here that is accusing those of us that are not happy as being "disloyal" are also people that didn't participate in any way shape or form in any of the protests at the end of last season, because otherwise, they have some explaining to do.

habstfc
05-18-2011, 06:17 PM
I could also say, if JDG had ANY decent offers he would never have come. He was very clear from the beginning when he turned TFC down that he wanted to play a couple more years in Europe and that money wasn't an object. Think about it!

Oh, and an offer to clean up toilets for Celtic doesn't count as an offer.

The poster I am refering to said ZERO offers from europe, he didn't say he didn't get any offers any where near what he got here. You being a wiseguy and JDG hater it doesn't surprise me you would chime in with an anti JDG post. I don't hate anyone on this club, but you do( you and many other's can go cheer for someone else). That toilet comment exposes who you really are. Everyone else can interpret that any way they want.

Workie
05-18-2011, 06:21 PM
So basically if TFC is so shit and apparently everything they do or ever will do is shit then go buy a Galaxy, RSL, or NYRB jersey and get the fuck off TFC supporters forums. Go bother their supporters for a while.

Get a grip!
You can go drink your koolaid and pretend it's all love and roses. But I love my team and with that get the right to rip them when they need it.

Enjoy your academy games.....

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 06:22 PM
I know that supporters turned on Hodgson... but wasn't that because Hodgson was a Gillette/Hicks hire and had rejected Dalglish as a candidate? They inherited Benitez and towards the end of his tenure he started feeling heat from the supporters as well.

But once Fenway bought the team then the anger was directed solely at Hodgson to and then didn't he make the fateful mistake of turning on the supporters?

But until Fenway bought the team, the anger was directed at Gillette and Hicks not Hodgson, no?

Irrelevant. Your point was that supporters don`t turn on their managers which is absolute garbage. If we hadn`t turned on Mo and Preki they might still be here.

Workie
05-18-2011, 06:23 PM
I resent your comment. Ive been supporting this team from the very beginning, pumpinmg money into BMO and there is NOTHING you can tell me about supporting a team, anyway. You have no business whatsoever telling me I should go support a team I have no local connection to, because Im vocal about its mismanagement.

Do you not get it? We want to support a Toronto team because were from/in/near Toronto. However the organisation that bought the rights to a Toronto team, and stand in the way of anyone else doing the same, are treating it and us like a big joke.

The solution is not to go and support LA. For fucks sake, how slow is this?

Tell you what, go and ask a liverpool supporter (in merseyside) who was part of the movement that eventually saw Hicks and Gillette ousted, why he didnt just go and support Manchester United, instead of complaining about the owners.

Ill pay the dental bills.

Thank you!

You left out that some people follow the sport not just for flares, smoke bombs and flags. Some people enjoy the sport and watch the game.

But what do us non Ultras know? :D

Pachuco
05-18-2011, 06:28 PM
The poster I am refering to said ZERO offers from europe, he didn't say he didn't get any offers any where near what he got here. You being a wiseguy and JDG hater it doesn't surprise me you would chime in with an anti JDG post. I don't hate anyone on this club, but you do( you and many other's can go cheer for someone else). That toilet comment exposes who you really are. Everyone else can interpret that any way they want.

Your argument coulnd't be more flawed. My response proves it. He had no offers anywhere near what TFC offered him. It wasn't the other offers that determined JDG's value, it was Mo's trigger happy negotiations that did. It's not the first time MO severely overpaid someone. I'll let you think about actually defending your argument and responding to that instead of concetrating on labeling me as something. If you want to label me as a hater, feel free to label me a Habs hater as well.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 06:29 PM
Actually, whether one's a more rational assumption than the other or not, both positions are assumptions ,since there's no established baseline for what qualifies someone as a good coach.

You could assume that Nicol would be better suited, and it might even get you better odds. But that doesn't make it a sure thing just because Winter has only coached youth teams. (And he has been a head coach; he's been a head coach of youth teams. As someone noted regarding Schellas Hyndman, it's really not that different.)

Jeremy, you;ve lost the plot lately.

This is one of your best, right up there with
'I'd rather watch us miss the playoffs with attractive football than watch us get through with boring football'

coaching youth teams in holland isnt much different from coaching a first team in MLS.....ok man, whatever.

Nicol would have been a crapshoot, then, absolutely nothing to suggest that he would be any better than a green rookie.

Except his fucking resume.

Roogsy
05-18-2011, 06:30 PM
Jeremy, you;ve lost the plot lately.

This is one of your best, right up there with
'I'd rather watch us miss the playoffs with attractive football than watch us get through with boring football'

coaching youth teams in holland isnt much different from coaching a first team in MLS.....ok man, whatever.

Nicol would have been a crapshoot, then, absolutely nothing to suggest that he would be any better than a green rookie.

Except his fucking resume.



Shoot...I will take 4 MLS Finals appearances right about now!

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 06:39 PM
Shoot...I will take 4 MLS Finals appearances right about now!

And I would happily watch them play 'prekiball' all the way there too.

After all Prekiball gave us 4-1 against Chicago on a cold windy day in the rain.

The same fixture, at roughly the same time and with exactly the same weather, but with Winterball got us 2-2 (but apparrently it was more attractive so thats ok)

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 06:48 PM
Jeremy, you;ve lost the plot lately.

This is one of your best, right up there with
'I'd rather watch us miss the playoffs with attractive football than watch us get through with boring football'

coaching youth teams in holland isnt much different from coaching a first team in MLS.....ok man, whatever.

Nicol would have been a crapshoot, then, absolutely nothing to suggest that he would be any better than a green rookie.

Except his fucking resume.


Shoot...I will take 4 MLS Finals appearances right
about now!

Out of curiosity...what was Nichols coaching record and what were his coaching credentials when he was appointed at New England?

You guys say that we have to wait and see but you've already made up your minds.

One of you is hung up on Winters credentials and the other has already come out and said you'd rather have Preki back....

And then talk shit about protests you attribute to getting rid of Preki.

You sure are giving Winter a fair shot.

Lol

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 06:50 PM
Correction.

You now have both talked about preferring Preki.

Hahaha

Workie
05-18-2011, 06:57 PM
Correction.

You now have both talked about preferring Preki.

Hahaha

:jaw:

First they agree and now this! I'm getting another beer and some popcorn!:drinking:

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 06:59 PM
Out of curiosity...what was Nichols coaching record and what were his coaching credentials when he was appointed at New England?

At the time, MLS was little more than a sunday league, New England werent in a position were a substantial fanbase and source of revenue were threatening to give it all up.

Nicol was hired on an interim basis, then after 21 games it was considered he had proved himself and he was given the job.

Can you see the difference yet?

Nobody said they wanted Preki back, but it has to be accepted that Winter hasnt done any better, and all of the reasons people are espousing that Winter should be given a fair shake, didnt apply to Mo, Carver or Preki, so why is the guy who has so far done worse than all of them getting a free ride?

ensco
05-18-2011, 07:03 PM
It'd be interesting if there was some kind of icon that identified posters on whether on not they are a longtime SSH.

Because I'm telling you right now, if you've shelled out thousands to underwrite this ongoing series of management tutorials for both MLSE execs and coaches, you see it differently, than someone cheering from a pub or on TV.

Not saying there's an aristocracy of fandom btw. But the real anger is coming from the people paying for all this, with their own hard-earned dough.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 07:07 PM
At the time, MLS was little more than a sunday league, New England werent in a position were a substantial fanbase and source of revenue were threatening to give it all up.

Nicol was hired on an interim basis, then after 21 games it was considered he had proved himself and he was given the job.

Can you see the difference yet?

Nobody said they wanted Preki back, but it has to be accepted that Winter hasnt done any better, and all of the reasons people are espousing that Winter should be given a fair shake, didnt apply to Mo, Carver or Preki, so why is the guy who has so far done worse than all of them getting a free ride?

I see the difference in terms of the interim to full time but you failed to mention Nichols coaching credentials.

Probably because he didnt have any.

Why is winter getting what you call a free pass?

Because he's coached 12 games.

Even NE back in the Sunday league (lol) days looked at Nichol for 21 games before making a decision.

But of course...you know better.

Whatever.

I hope TFC CONTINUE to improve so that at seasons end we can all look back at these threads and laugh.

Some of the laughter will be of joy and some of the laughter will be mockery.

Can't wait.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 07:07 PM
It'd be interesting if there was some kind of icon that identified posters on whether on not you were a longtime SSH.

Because I'm telling you right now, if you've shelled out thousands to underwrite this ongoing series of managements tutorials, not lease for MLSE execs, but also for coaches, you see it differently than someone cheering from a pub or on TFC.

Not saying there's an aristocracy of fandom btw. But the real anger's coming from the people paying for this with their own dough.

And its hard to read from pundits in far off places snobbishly telling you that things are actually better and the only reason we cant see the improvement is because were somehow 'football challenged' and dont really know whats going on or how things work.

Im pleased that you enjoy watching a good game of footy, and happy that you get to see the strengths and qualities of the other teams as they pound us, and Im glad that Im subsidising your enjoyment.

But fuck off already.

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 07:09 PM
It'd be interesting if there was some kind of icon that identified posters on whether on not they are a longtime SSH.

Because I'm telling you right now, if you've shelled out thousands to underwrite this ongoing series of management tutorials for both MLSE execs and coaches, you see it differently, than someone cheering from a pub or on TV.

Not saying there's an aristocracy of fandom btw. But the real anger is coming from the people paying for all this, with their own hard-earned dough.

I'm a day one season seat holder.

If that interests you.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 07:12 PM
I see the difference in terms of the interim to full time but you failed to mention Nichols coaching credentials.

Probably because he didnt have any.

actually read what i said. he had 21 games under his belt and had vastly improved the fortunes of an ailing MLS squad BEFORE he was officially hired as coach.If he'd shat the bed, he wouldnt have got the job!

Winter had no games, no track record and got a 3 year contract.

Do you get it yet?


Even NE back in the Sunday league (lol) days looked at Nichol for 21 games before making a decision.

Oh, it appears that you did get it.....what was your point again?

v00d00daddy
05-18-2011, 07:18 PM
actually read what i said. he had 21 games under his belt and had vastly improved the fortunes of an ailing MLS squad BEFORE he was officially hired as coach.If he'd shat the bed, he wouldnt have got the job!

Winter had no games, no track record and got a 3 year contract.

Do you get it yet?



Oh, it appears that you did get it.....what was your point again?

You've written him off after 12 games. If that sounds reasonable to you I don't know what else to say.

ExiledRed
05-18-2011, 07:22 PM
You've written him off after 12 games. If that sounds reasonable to you I don't know what else to say.

Ive not written him off, Im stating that he hasnt improved a thing, and he needs to start winning games.

Im annoyed by people like you giving him a license to suck all the while pretending he is doing things better than his predecessors, with absolutely nothing to back that up.

Whoop
05-18-2011, 07:31 PM
Irrelevant. Your point was that supporters don`t turn on their managers which is absolute garbage. If we hadn`t turned on Mo and Preki they might still be here.

The problem with TFC is that the line between the FO and the coaches in this case is blurred.