Coach Winter on TSN Radio @ 5pm

[v00d00daddy]

Ive not written him off, Im stating that he hasnt improved a thing, and he needs to start winning games.

Im annoyed by people like you giving him a license to suck all the while pretending he is doing things better than his predecessors, with absolutely nothing to back that up.

I have my reasons for believing that we're improving. I'm not getting into them again.

I get that you're frustrated.

I just think that there's a difference between disagreeing with a persons reasons for thinking one way and saying that no reasons exist.

You don't see it the way I do. That's fine. But if you insist on saying that my opinion is based on nothing I'm going to challenge you on that.

I have my reasons.

You have your 12 game sample size. Either you can see the future or you're just defending your position by ignoring the counterposition.

That's why I laugh. At the end of this season...if TFC are better, by your standards, I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say about your stance looking back.

[ExiledRed]

I have my reasons for believing that we're improving. I'm not getting into them again.

I get that you're frustrated.

I just think that there's a difference between disagreeing with a persons reasons for thinking one way and saying that no reasons exist.

You don't see it the way I do. That's fine. But if you insist on saying that my opinion is based on nothing I'm going to challenge you on that.

I have my reasons.

You have your 12 game sample size. Either you can see the future or you're just defending your position by ignoring the counterposition.

That's why I laugh. At the end of this season...if TFC are better, by your standards, I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say about your stance looking back.

I'll say that winter improved his game and took his finger out of his arse in just the nick of time.

We dont have to wait that long though, we'll see how we fare against Vancouver. If we lose this trophy, the guy is a bust IMO.

[ensco]

I'm a day one season seat holder.

If that interests you.

It does.

I'll try to construct a poll to test my hypothesis across a broader group.

[Whoop]

Why settle for Steve Nicol, Jason Kreis, Sigi Schmid, or Gary Smith, I want Jose Mourinho.

[ExiledRed]

Why settle for Steve Nicol, Jason Kreis, Sigi Schmid, or Gary Smith, I want Jose Mourinho.

Again, here we have a man who is used to coaching players who command salaries and transfer fees that would leave any MLS squad with one player.

When Mourinho has a hole at right back, he makes a call and fills it with someone from one of the ten richest clubs in the world.

I think it would be different if he was given a MLS squad, with a defensive problem and no real attack, and he was told he had less than $400k to shore up the defence and find a goalscorer.

I think he could easily suck to be honest.

[Whoop]

My point is why are we discussing coaching options that weren't available last fall.

[ExiledRed]

My point is why are we discussing coaching options that weren't available last fall.

Were not.

Steve Nicol's name came up as an example of a coach with experience that could have probably been wooed from NE with enough cash, and would almost certainly have done better from the outset. Granted, this is speculation, but....

the fact remains, that the coach they actually did settle on, had no track record, was new to the league and is basically a shot in the dark, and was sold to us as some kind of expensive, highly qualified specialist that was going to turn this team inside out, get them playing exciting football and correct all our past mistakes.

Im not saying that Winter isnt going to do this, but i will say that if he does, it will be after readjusting his gameplan because his current one stinks.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'll say that winter improved his game and took his finger out of his arse in just the nick of time.

We dont have to wait that long though, we'll see how we fare against Vancouver. If we lose this trophy, the guy is a bust IMO.

This comment says it all.

I want TFC to defend the trophy as well, and I'll be very disappointed if they lose the NCC Final. That being said, the NCC will be decided a week from today, a couple of months into Winter's inaugral coaching campaign, and you're already prepared to write him off pending the outcome.

Two months sounds like a reasonable timeframe to pass judgement.

[ExiledRed]

This comment says it all.

I want TFC to defend the trophy as well, and I'll be very disappointed if they lose the NCC Final. That being said, the NCC will be decided a week from today, a couple of months into Winter's inaugral coaching campaign, and you're already prepared to write him off pending the outcome.

Two months sounds like a reasonable timeframe to pass judgement.

I'm prepared to write him off if he cant defend the trophy from an expansion team after being given a bye to the final, yes. If he loses the trophy, his record compared to Preki's will be fucking abysmal, but you'll be calling it a sure sign that we've improved and are developing a foundation for the future.

Out of interest, what were you saying about Preki, this time last year?

[Pookie]

I dislike MLSE very, very much.

That said, I find it funny that some folks would suggest that JK would take the cheque and run without putting significant effort into finding the best available candidate(s) and structure for this team. Though the conclusion Klinsman came to may be subjective, the management team and the philosophy of the club is not simply an exercise in dressing up the first available warm body and trodding them out in front of the cameras.

If TFC is eventually successful, Klinsmann's business prospects will grow. If TFC flops, what do you think happens to Klinsmann's reputation? To think he has no ambition, or vested interest in seeing his business grow and prosper is absolutely silly.

[Roogsy]

This is the problem I pointed to at the beginning of the year. I feared and now it seems obvious Winter-believers will defend the position that we have to suck in order to do things "right". Ridiculous. Half the team is a carry-over from last year and its the half Winter and Mariner chose to retain.

I expect TFC to retain the NCC. Our expectations shouldn't be any less.
I am tired of this argument. It seems that the accepted conclusion is that if we're not giving Winter our complete belief and confidence, we've written him off and yet we're given nothing substantial to rest our belief on other than verbal assurances. There is no room in the middle for skepticism or expectations of actual results before we crown him a genius. Obviously the logical thing to do is to award him such faith before he even proves anything. That's worked out for us in the past right?

That's it from me. I'm getting ready to watch the game and I'd like to see (and expect) taking at least a point in Vancouver.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'm prepared to write him off if he cant defend the trophy from an expansion team after being given a bye to the final, yes. If he loses the trophy, his record compared to Preki's will be fucking abysmal, but you'll be calling it a sure sign that we've improved and are developing a foundation for the future.


Winter and Mariner were given an extremely difficult task in rebuilding this club, without a clean slate to work with. It could be argued that TFC is akin to an expansion team this season, or worse. TFC is not heavily favoured going into the NCC Final and there is just cause for that prognostication, as there is little separating the two clubs at the moment.



Out of interest, what were you saying about Preki, this time last year?


The same thing as the overwhelming majority of supporters at that time.

I suppose that is somehow indicative that Winter is destined to fail as Preki did. Makes sense.

[ExiledRed]

I dislike MLSE very, very much.

That said, I find it funny that some folks would suggest that JK would take the cheque and run without putting significant effort into finding the best available candidate(s) and structure for this team. Though the conclusion Klinsman came to may be subjective, the management team and the philosophy of the club is not simply an exercise in dressing up the first available warm body and trodding them out in front of the cameras.

If TFC is eventually successful, Klinsmann's business prospects will grow. If TFC flops, what do you think happens to Klinsmann's reputation? To think he has no ambition, or vested interest in seeing his business grow and prosper is absolutely silly.

Klinsmanns reputation is not at stake, he'd have been mad to take the job if he thought his reputation would hinge on it. Nobody is going to care that MLSE fucked it up after paying huge for a few conversations with him. They'll just blame MLSE.

[ExiledRed]

The same thing as the overwhelming majority of supporters at that time.



Which was what exactly?

[denime]

Depends on the the thread you're in I suppose. But it's good to generalize that way. Either way, if you want to know how things turn out, how about your spend your time reading that thread if you're not going to contribute to this thread. :D

No need to it,once you take over the thread with few guys,thread turns to same old story,unfortunately.:(

TEAM glass always half empty: Roogsy, ExiledRed,Pachuco,CretanBull

VS

TEAM glass half full: REST OF THE BOARD


Since I know you guys know better that 99% of this board,there is nothing I can write that you don't know already and much better actually,that's why I just skim trough posts.:hide:

[Beach_Red]

Again, here we have a man who is used to coaching players who command salaries and transfer fees that would leave any MLS squad with one player.

When Mourinho has a hole at right back, he makes a call and fills it with someone from one of the ten richest clubs in the world.

I think it would be different if he was given a MLS squad, with a defensive problem and no real attack, and he was told he had less than $400k to shore up the defence and find a goalscorer.

I think he could easily suck to be honest.

This is a good point. One thing Nical has been able to do in NE is keep one of the cheapest teams in the league, playing in the middle of nowhere in a huge empty stadium competitive by filling in the roster. It's a good bet given more resources he could do even better.

And that's what this comes down to. Sure 12 games isn't enough to judge coaching tactics but if the roster doesn't improve is there really much reason to expect these players to any better in the final 12 games of the season against opposition that's also had a full season to get better?

Did Mariner and Winter do a good enough job finding players? I think most people, when Soccer Solutions was hired, thought TFC had tapped into some very deep connections that would be able to bring in more than a rookie coach and GM. Many people expected a major DP signing before the season started to show how serious the team was and then for the holes to he filled in with a few diamonds in the rough.

[ManUtd4ever]

Which was what exactly?

I wasn't a fan of Preki's style of play or his curious lineup decisions at times, but I was content with the results in the win column at that point in time, and I approved of the job he was doing.

I don't understand how this is relevant. The majority of supporters approved of the job Preki did over the first half of the season and ended up being proven wrong.

How does this reflect the timeframe that Winter and Mariner should be given to produce positive results for this organization?

I'm not heaping praise on the new management regime. I just think we should reserve judgement either way until the end of the season, as opposed to declaring them a success or failure at this early stage of their tenure.

[Roogsy]

No need to it,once you take over the thread with few guys,thread turns to same old story,unfortunately.:(

TEAM glass always half empty: Roogsy, ExiledRed,Pachuco,CretanBull

VS

TEAM glass half full: REST OF THE BOARD


Since I know you guys know better that 99% of this board,there is nothing I can write that you don't know already and much better actually,that's why I just skim trough posts.:hide:


More than 99% of the board? No. More than you? Probably. :lol: After all, what can you say about someone who was Preki's biggest backer? LMAO!

[habstfc]

Your argument coulnd't be more flawed. My response proves it. He had no offers anywhere near what TFC offered him. It wasn't the other offers that determined JDG's value, it was Mo's trigger happy negotiations that did. It's not the first time MO severely overpaid someone. I'll let you think about actually defending your argument and responding to that instead of concetrating on labeling me as something. If you want to label me as a hater, feel free to label me a Habs hater as well.

Your response proves nothing except the unreasonable hate you have on for the guy.

I guess that depends on what you consider what an offer "anywhere near" what he got here would be. I could intrepret that number to be 1.4 million or so. In my opinion that's "nowhere near" what he got here, you just choose to pretend that number to be next to nothing.

I wasn't a big fan of Mo either but I don't think he's that dumb or blind to offer a player 1.8 million if he could have got him for much less than that.

You are the biggest JDG hater on these boards there is no doubt about that, everyone on here knows this so I don't know why you think that is a label. I just don't know why your opinion of the guy is that low. There have been far more good games than bad in my opinion.

Ya I'm a habsfan like alot of others on this site, so what? See you at yuk yuk's.

[ExiledRed]

I wasn't a fan of Preki's style of play or his curious lineup decisions at times, but I was content with the results in the win column at that point in time, and I approved of the job he was doing.

I don't understand how this is relevant. The majority of supporters approved of the job Preki did over the first half of the season and ended being proven wrong.

How does this reflect the timeframe that Winter and Mariner should be given to produce positive results for this organization?

I'm not heaping praise on the new management regime. I just think we should reserve judgement either way until the end of the season, as opposed to declaring them a failure at this early stage of their tenure.



Which was what exactly?




Overall, I think we have yet to see what this club is truly capable of under Preki's tutelage which bodes well for our chances of legitimate success this season...

That was one of your less entusiastic posts.

Heres another expert:


I'm very optimistic right now. It just seems we have a coach that has concentrated on drilling team shape and players supporting one another into their performance, very much as Bruce Arena has done in LA and has been the case for several seasons in Houston under Kinnear.

It would be nice to get a couple more depth players but this team will compete well all season, I think. And we'll make the playoffs if they stick with the system.

Me? I'll be listening to Ensco from hereon in.


. That Chicago game was probably the best game I've ever seen TFC play.
But, in the bigger picture, I don't think I exactly can connect the dots between the results and the way we look on the field. The fact is, the other three home wins could very easily have been draws or even worse. The road games, we have been horrible in every one of them ex the LA game. I'm not really believing we're a good team yet, but not because I'm incapable of believing. Not because we've swan dived every year, just based on the sum of how we've looked overall.

[denime]

More than 99% of the board? No. More than you? Probably. :lol: After all, what can you say about someone who was Preki's biggest backer? LMAO!


there is nothing I can write that you don't know already and much better actually

Just like I said. ;)

[ExiledRed]

No need to it,once you take over the thread with few guys,thread turns to same old story,unfortunately.:(

TEAM glass always half empty: Roogsy, ExiledRed,Pachuco,CretanBull

VS

TEAM glass half full: REST OF THE BOARD


Since I know you guys know better that 99% of this board,there is nothing I can write that you don't know already and much better actually,that's why I just skim trough posts.:hide:

Do you mind? adults are talking

[Roogsy]

I'm not heaping praise on the new management regime. I just think we should reserve judgement either way until the end of the season, as opposed to declaring them a failure at this early stage of their tenure.

I wouldn't mind so much if people were pausing before they credited this new FO as our saviours. But that's not what people were doing.

We're not declaring them a failure. We're putting them on notice that results will be demanded sooner rather than later. If we were more diligent in our demands of excellence, we'd be wiser to demand benchmarks and gauges of measure instead of vague assurances that someday in the future we will be better.

[ManUtd4ever]

Me? I'll be listening to Ensco from hereon in.

That's good, because Ensco is rational enough to maintain an even keel and allow a reasonable timeframe before passing judgement one way or the other.

[ManUtd4ever]

I wouldn't mind so much if people were pausing before they credited this new FO as our saviours. But that's not what people were doing.

We're not declaring them a failure. We're putting them on notice that results will be demanded sooner rather than later. If we were more diligent in our demands of excellence, we'd be wiser to demand benchmarks and gauges of measure instead of vague assurances that someday in the future we will be better.

That's fine, but how do you gauge progress with a club that is rebuilding? By setting benchmarks for success and results within the first two months?

Most managers would get fired in their inaugral season if that was the standard criteria.

[ExiledRed]

That's good, because Ensco is rational enough to maintain an even keel and allow a reasonable timeframe before passing judgement one way or the other.

Ensco's opinion on Winter's appointment and performance is the same as mine, unless I've been reading his posts wrong.

He's as worried as I am that we've been stuck with a clueless wonder who is going to have to furiously reinvent his approach before he starts succeeding in this league.

Neither Ensco or I are calling for Winter's head to roll. Were calling for Winter to get his head out of his ass.

Am I wrong, E?

[ManUtd4ever]

Anyway, enough. Let's enjoy the game.

[Whoop]

I wouldn't mind so much if people were pausing before they credited this new FO as our saviours. But that's not what people were doing.

We're not declaring them a failure. We're putting them on notice that results will be demanded sooner rather than later. If we were more diligent in our demands of excellence, we'd be wiser to demand benchmarks and gauges of measure instead of vague assurances that someday in the future we will be better.

http://nocachyblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/colbert-on-notice.jpg

[Roogsy]

But why is over 4 months in charge not good enough? Hodgson was shitting the bed in Liverpool, they fired him after what, 6 months and look what happened there? Did they pull the trigger too soon? Would anyone argue it was not the right move? There is no evidence that soccer is like hockey or basketball, where building from the minor leagues (academies) and years of development are needed in order to succeed. Those things affect long-term viability, not short-term results. This team needed an injection of optimisim right away. Instead we got another long-term plan.

People who say that coaches should not be fired in their first year have been disproven by countless examples in leagues all around the world. Preki's dismissal was the right thing to do. And while I am not saying the same is necessary for Winter, I do believe more accelerated demands should be made upon him as opposed to "hey, make sure we get into the playoffs in your 2nd or possibly 3rd year". Ridiculous.

[Whoop]

^^
I agree but Liverpool hadn't gone through 6 coaches in 5 years.

[v00d00daddy]

I wouldn't mind so much if people were pausing before they credited this new FO as our saviours. But that's not what people were doing.

We're not declaring them a failure. We're putting them on notice that results will be demanded sooner rather than later. If we were more diligent in our demands of excellence, we'd be wiser to demand benchmarks and gauges of measure instead of vague assurances that someday in the future we will be better.

Honestly, maybe it's just a difference in interpretation thing but I see it the exact opposite way as you.

Show me a post where I've annointed anyone as a saviour or called anyone a genius.

Conversely...I can show you posts where you say you prefer a coach that you hated as a coach, and hated as a man over Winter.

And then you say you haven't written him off.

It doesn't jibe with me.

[algieb]

supporters off football the world over are all the same, give them a winning team and they are happy, promises to get better only last so long, treat them badly and ignore them at youre peril, paying customers make or brake any buisness

[ExiledRed]

^^
I agree but Liverpool hadn't gone through 6 coaches in 5 years.

Doesnt make a snot of difference.

Coaches should be judged individually, not based on the tenure of their predecessors

[denime]

Do you mind? adults are talking

Adults? in that case why are still in this thread,adult reasonable person would never write something like this:


Originally Posted by ExiledRed http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1301795#post1301795)
I'll say that winter improved his game and took his finger out of his arse in just the nick of time.

We dont have to wait that long though, we'll see how we fare against Vancouver. If we lose this trophy, the guy is a bust IMO.


Oh,I forgot you are one of few chosen ones that know everything about soccer,sorry I will not interrupt you anymore.:hump:

[algieb]

supporters dont need to know jshit eveyone has an opinion right or wrong,14 000 sth not appearing in sept oct whould make one helluva statement regarding product on field money talks bigtime in these matters

[ensco]

Ensco's opinion on Winter's appointment and performance is the same as mine, unless I've been reading his posts wrong.

He's as worried as I am that we've been stuck with a clueless wonder who is going to have to furiously reinvent his approach before he starts succeeding in this league.

Neither Ensco or I are calling for Winter's head to roll. Were calling for Winter to get his head out of his ass.

Am I wrong, E?

I'm closer to Exiled's position. I am seriously worried that Winter is a mistake. I thought Klinsmann had a special insight into the guy, but based on what we see, Winter's a raw rookie who can't handle men, and has no ability to bring in talent. Hopefully there's more to see, but I won't say I'm through if we get knocked out by Vancouver, I'll give him until August.

[ExiledRed]

Oh,I forgot you are one of few chosen ones that know everything about soccer,sorry I will not interrupt you anymore.:hump:

Thats good news, because i can barely understand your posts anyway

[Whoop]

Doesnt make a snot of difference.

Coaches should be judged individually, not based on the tenure of their predecessors

Again, I agree.

But the most important thing TFC needs right now - aside from wins naturally - is some stability. It's why Vancouver kept Thordarson instead bringing in a new coach.

Not a coaching carousel.

[denime]

But why is over 4 months in charge not good enough? Hodgson was shitting the bed in Liverpool, they fired him after what, 6 months and look what happened there? Did they pull the trigger too soon? Would anyone argue it was not the right move? There is no evidence that soccer is like hockey or basketball, where building from the minor leagues (academies) and years of development are needed in order to succeed. Those things affect long-term viability, not short-term results. This team needed an injection of optimisim right away. Instead we got another long-term plan.

People who say that coaches should not be fired in their first year have been disproven by countless examples in leagues all around the world. Preki's dismissal was the right thing to do. And while I am not saying the same is necessary for Winter, I do believe more accelerated demands should be made upon him as opposed to "hey, make sure we get into the playoffs in your 2nd or possibly 3rd year". Ridiculous.

Disagree,Barcelona did not build their team overnight,most their team is from their own academy.


BTW,next time when some of the posters complains how Mods have some inner(jerk)circle and back each other all the time,just give him the link to this thread,no such a thing on this board.

[Whoop]

And for the record, I'm with ensco.

If TFC doesn't retain the Voyageurs Cup he has until the summer to rectify things.

[Pachuco]

No need to it,once you take over the thread with few guys,thread turns to same old story,unfortunately.:(

TEAM glass always half empty: Roogsy, ExiledRed,Pachuco,CretanBull

VS

TEAM glass half full: REST OF THE BOARD


Since I know you guys know better that 99% of this board,there is nothing I can write that you don't know already and much better actually,that's why I just skim trough posts.:hide:

Funny I've defended Cann, I defend Dero, I defend Nana when the rest of the board rips on these guys. The same could be said for Roogsy. But somehow, it's the rest of the board that's glass hall full.

I'll just attribute your seriuosly flawed math and useless argument to the fact you skim through posts.

Oh, and I defend the hell out of Maicon around here as well which alot of people are ready to throw under the bus.

[Pachuco]

Your response proves nothing except the unreasonable hate you have on for the guy.

I guess that depends on what you consider what an offer "anywhere near" what he got here would be. I could intrepret that number to be 1.4 million or so. In my opinion that's "nowhere near" what he got here, you just choose to pretend that number to be next to nothing.

I wasn't a big fan of Mo either but I don't think he's that dumb or blind to offer a player 1.8 million if he could have got him for much less than that.

You are the biggest JDG hater on these boards there is no doubt about that, everyone on here knows this so I don't know why you think that is a label. I just don't know why your opinion of the guy is that low. There have been far more good games than bad in my opinion.

Ya I'm a habsfan like alot of others on this site, so what? See you at yuk yuk's.

I hate JDG as much as you have a hard on for the guy. So your opinions are pretty much as unreasonable as mine.

And I don't care if I'm labelled as a JDG hater, I should probably put that on the back of my jersey. But it's annoying that really that's your only comeback you've ever had when talking about JDG. How about the rest of the population that thinks we could do without the guy? I guarantee you I'm not in the minority.

Oh, and the article specifically says teams aren't showing much interest, and your assumption is he got a 1.4 mill offer? bahahaha. what a joke.

[Roogsy]

Honestly, maybe it's just a difference in interpretation thing but I see it the exact opposite way as you.

Show me a post where I've annointed anyone as a saviour or called anyone a genius.

Conversely...I can show you posts where you say you prefer a coach that you hated as a coach, and hated as a man over Winter.

And then you say you haven't written him off.

It doesn't jibe with me.


Actually, it's a classic case of remembering a post the way you want to remember it. I said:




Do I see changes on the pitch? Yeah. Is it "better"? It is better only in that it's a departure of the ugly football Preki had us playing but that's about as positive as I can be about the new "system". Like Preki's system, there are glaring gaps that other teams can and have exposed. I don't see any new brilliance with this new system. I just see a different style of playing without any substantive reason to believe that this system IS the answer to TFC's woes and that it will definitely be effective in MLS. What's worse, the fact that Winter's system a helluvalot more difficult for average players than Preki's system and I will readily admit that as much as I hated Preki's system (and quite frankly the man himself) I would rather have him here now than this experiement.



This is just a case of the "devil you know", that is all I was referring to. I certainly don't want him back. Denime might, but not me. :lol:

Since I view Winter as an "experiment" by TFC, yes I do have a problem with that setup That is not writing him off, that is a commentary on the decision to put in place a coach with little experience. That's what I have a problem with. For all I know, Winter could be the greatest coach to ever coach in MLS. But by the same token, for all you know he could be one of the worst. And that is the problem. We simply don't know. So how can we have confidence? Giving that kind of faith is the very definition of "blind faith". I am not saying don't give him a chance. What I am saying is put him on a short leash. By your logic, there are only two options: Write someone off or give them all your faith. Where is the moderation in that?

[Beach_Red]

And for the record, I'm with ensco.

If TFC doesn't retain the Voyageurs Cup he has until the summer to rectify things.

But does recitfy things neccessarily mean Winter has to go? As you said, when Vancouver joined MLS they kept their coach but added to their FO.

[habstfc]

I hate JDG as much as you have a hard on for the guy.

And I don't care if I'm labelled as a JDG hater, I should probably put that on the back of my jersey. But it's annoying that really that's your only comeback you've ever had when talking about JDG. How about the rest of the population that thinks we could do without the guy? I guarantee you I'm not in the minority.

Oh, and the article specifically says teams aren't showing much interest, and your assumption is he got a 1.4 mill offer? bahahaha. what a joke.

I have a hard-on for jdg, wow. I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

I don't think that the rest of us think that we could do without JDG. They might think he is paid too much but not that we would be better off without him.

I never said he was offered 1.4 million I was simply pointing out that number could be considered nowhere near 1.8 million. First read, then comprehend what you've just read.

Why do you waste your time on here? You obviously get no joy on here, most of your posts are of the negative variety.

[Pookie]

That's it from me. I'm getting ready to watch the game and I'd like to see (and expect) taking at least a point in Vancouver.

Well thank goodness for the result last night.

Winter has demonstrated progress as last night's 1-1 result was better than the 4-2 loss to open the season to the same team. Winter has met your expectations and given your short term focus, I guess you are able to conclude that we are "on track" and we can look forward to positive posts from you.... until the next game.


More than 99% of the board? No. More than you? Probably..

Though you wrote this for another, I absolutely love it.

I don't mean to sidebar your positivity today but I would like for you to take a shot at explaining a shot you took at me.

You know, the one where you claimed I lost all credibility because I can't seem to see that DeRo is playing a different role in NY? Apparently, it is obvious to someone with your unsurpassed knowledge of the game but to little ol me, it is far beyond my comprehension. This DeRo thing is one of your favourite management bashing angles.

You claim, perhaps conveniently, that DeRo's production is down because he is playing a different role, setting up the strikers was it?

I highlighted that DeRo, in NY, is on pace to take the same or slightly more shots vs his last 2 seasons in Toronto.

If this is a different role, why is he on pace to take the same (or more) shots? Are these special shots? Shots designed to rebound to the strikers? Is the statisician in NY simply generous and unable to see that DeRo's superhuman strength makes it impossible to decipher whether it was a pass or a shot?

Clearly, if his role is to pass and his role is so vastly different in NY, wouldn't we expect shot totals to decline?

Please, enlighten me.

[Pachuco]

Well thank goodness for the result last night.

Winter has demonstrated progress as last night's 1-1 result was better than the 4-2 loss to open the season to the same team. Winter has met your expectations and given your short term focus, I guess you are able to conclude that we are "on track" and we can look forward to positive posts from you.... until the next game.



Though you wrote this for another, I absolutely love it.

I don't mean to sidebar your positivity today but I would like for you to take a shot at explaining a shot you took at me.

You know, the one where you claimed I lost all credibility because I can't seem to see that DeRo is playing a different role in NY? Apparently, it is obvious to someone with your unsurpassed knowledge of the game but to little ol me, it is far beyond my comprehension. This DeRo thing is one of your favourite management bashing angles.

You claim, perhaps conveniently, that DeRo's production is down because he is playing a different role, setting up the strikers was it?

I highlighted that DeRo, in NY, is on pace to take the same or slightly more shots vs his last 2 seasons in Toronto.

If this is a different role, why is he on pace to take the same (or more) shots? Are these special shots? Shots designed to rebound to the strikers? Is the statisician in NY simply generous and unable to see that DeRo's superhuman strength makes it impossible to decipher whether it was a pass or a shot?

Clearly, if his role is to pass and his role is so vastly different in NY, wouldn't we expect shot totals to decline?

Please, enlighten me.

Only you Pookie would actually claim that Dero is playing the same role in NY as he was with TFC. And only you would claim that his production is actually down while the NY coach continues to love him and put him on the field. And then only you would twist his supposive production being down into blaming it on his age. After all, he's now 33 and like you said a long time ago, he's going to turn into a pumpkin.

BTW - There's one pretty easy explanation for him taking the same number of shots (if that's even true since I can't believe anything you say and I haven't looked for myself). Anyway, I would venture to guess since he's no longer a striker/forward/winger his shots are more then likely outside the box and less shots where he gets behind the defense.

[Roogsy]

*ding ding* You've got it right Pachuco. DeRo is playing much deeper in NY's system, very similar to JDG's role in Toronto.

Which has more goals? :D

Obviously Pookie has not watched many of NY's games. Doesn't matter anyways, he's as anti-DeRo as I am pro-DeRo so it doesn't bother me, I think most people see that.

[jabbronies]

I'm closer to Exiled's position. I am seriously worried that Winter is a mistake. I thought Klinsmann had a special insight into the guy, but based on what we see, Winter's a raw rookie who can't handle men, and has no ability to bring in talent. Hopefully there's more to see, but I won't say I'm through if we get knocked out by Vancouver, I'll give him until August.

I'm not writing off the season until I see what he does during the transfer window. So far I liked what they have done with new foundation of the team, now I wanna see how they beef up the lineup and take us to the next level.

[habstfc]

*ding ding* You've got it right Pachuco. DeRo is playing much deeper in NY's system, very similar to JDG's role in Toronto.

Which has more goals? :D

Obviously Pookie has not watched many of NY's games. Doesn't matter anyways, he's as anti-DeRo as I am pro-DeRo so it doesn't bother me, I think most people see that.

Dero has 1 goal.hmmm. Wasn't that on a pk on the weekend? I hardly think he's playing a similar role to that of a DM for TFC, that's Marquez"s role. The Red Bulls may not count on him as much offensively as he had here but to say he's playing the same role as JDG or Tchani is not true, you'll think of anything you can to justify your argument. It's obvious you're pro dero and that's okay, but what some people have a problem with is you saying things like he got screwed over by the club for not living up to "promises" made to him about being made a DP or getting considerably more money. He's a grown man with an agent he's got no one to blame but himself or his agent the way things turned out for him. If it's true that he turned down $600,000 that apparently he was offered here, he should have taken it because it looks like he's not going to get anything more from new york. I don't think his next contract will be anywhere near that.

For the record I was a DERO supporter when he was here, no where near a hater of the guy.

[Azerban]

Dero has 1 goal.hmmm. Wasn't that on a pk on the weekend?

to be fair, he did start his run-up from a very deep position

[Pachuco]

Dero has 1 goal.hmmm. Wasn't that on a pk on the weekend? I hardly think he's playing a similar role to that of a DM for TFC, that's Marquez"s role. The Red Bulls may not count on him as much offensively as he had here but to say he's playing the same role as JDG or Tchani is not true, you'll think of anything you can to justify your argument. It's obvious you're pro dero and that's okay, but what some people have a problem with is you saying things like he got screwed over by the club for not living up to "promises" made to him about being made a DP or getting considerably more money. He's a grown man with an agent he's got no one to blame but himself or his agent the way things turned out for him. If it's true that he turned down $600,000 that apparently he was offered here, he should have taken it because it looks like he's not going to get anything more from new york. I don't think his next contract will be anywhere near that.

For the record I was a DERO supporter when he was here, no where near a hater of the guy.

This line right here shows all you have done is gone to Wikipedia before commenting on NYR personnell. Because if you've watched them once, JUST ONCE this year you would know Marquez has been moved back to CB. And yes, Dero is now playing pretty much the position Marquez was playing last year for NYR. Not a DM, not an AM either. Pretty much plays like a CM.

[flambe]

But why is over 4 months in charge not good enough? Hodgson was shitting the bed in Liverpool, they fired him after what, 6 months and look what happened there? Did they pull the trigger too soon? Would anyone argue it was not the right move?

Not sure how you can compare LFC and Hodgson for TFC and Winter. LFC have a stable squad of tenure that aren't trying to play a new system. Hodgson did not inherit a bunch of players (Cann, Gargen, Gold, Harden) who quite obviously have difficulty playing the newly adopted system. Kenny came in as a club hero/coach and instilled some confidence in them, they responded with a renewed vigour and a couple of good signings and things are slowly turning around.

Toronto doesn't have the luxury of a stable squad, or even a squad that has ever played the possession based football that Winter is trying to instill.

The only way this is ever going to work is if it's given time. Winter understands this and has set low expectations for the club this year. Replace the people who can't play the system, 50% of our backline and I'll be happy(er).



I do believe more accelerated demands should be made upon him as opposed to "hey, make sure we get into the playoffs in your 2nd or possibly 3rd year". Ridiculous.

People are far to quick to throw Winter under the bus, not just you, but a good portion of this board. We're not going to win jack this season, middle to low table at best. We might win the NCC, but it will be down to luck more than anything. Last nights game proves that.

I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

People are far to quick to throw Winter under the bus, not just you, but a good portion of this board. We're not going to win jack this season, middle to low table at best. We might win the NCC, but it will be down to luck more than anything. Last nights game proves that.

I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.

well said

[Whoop]

Not sure how you can compare LFC and Hodgson for TFC and Winter. LFC have a stable squad of tenure that aren't trying to play a new system. Hodgson did not inherit a bunch of players (Cann, Gargen, Gold, Harden) who quite obviously have difficulty playing the newly adopted system. Kenny came in as a club hero/coach and instilled some confidence in them, they responded with a renewed vigour and a couple of good signings and things are slowly turning around.

Toronto doesn't have the luxury of a stable squad, or even a squad that has ever played the possession based football that Winter is trying to instill.

The only way this is ever going to work is if it's given time. Winter understands this and has set low expectations for the club this year. Replace the people who can't play the system, 50% of our backline and I'll be happy(er).




People are far to quick to throw Winter under the bus, not just you, but a good portion of this board. We're not going to win jack this season, middle to low table at best. We might win the NCC, but it will be down to luck more than anything. Last nights game proves that.

I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.

Not to diminish Dalglish's impact but I think selling a disinterested Fernando Torres and picking up two hungry young guys in Luis Suarez and Andy Carroll also helped.

I think Winter/Mariner will bring in some more pieces when the summer window opens up.

[Pookie]

Only you Pookie would actually claim that Dero is playing the same role in NY as he was with TFC. And only you would claim that his production is actually down while the NY coach continues to love him and put him on the field. And then only you would twist his supposive production being down into blaming it on his age. After all, he's now 33 and like you said a long time ago, he's going to turn into a pumpkin.

Actually, what I said was that it would be foolish for TFC to offer DeRo a long term, Designated Player contract given his age and the fact that his production would eventually decline. His production has declined this year vs his previous campaigns but there's always a way to spin it and this new "role" thing is apparently the crutch you are hanging on to.

Incidently, are the NYRB equally foolish for not tying up this can't miss, never aging superstar as their 3rd DP?

You folks point to DeRo's departure as a failure of current Management. You use it to suggest they are inept. I call BS on that argument as they effectively unloaded an aging player, with a suck balls attitude, for younger talent.



BTW - There's one pretty easy explanation for him taking the same number of shots (if that's even true since I can't believe anything you say and I haven't looked for myself). Anyway, I would venture to guess since he's no longer a striker/forward/winger his shots are more then likely outside the box and less shots where he gets behind the defense.

Stats can be found easily at ESPN.com. That's on the internet.

His year over year shot totals are similar. His goal totals are down.

If he is taking the same number of shots but from weaker positions on the pitch and unable to convert then perhaps he is failing to see better distribution options.

Either way, much more of a season to be played and perhaps he can turn it around. Perhaps the Red Bulls will offer him that 3rd DP slot in the offseason. But as of right now, Winter & Mariner made the absolutely correct decision at this point in time.

[ExiledRed]

Not sure how you can compare LFC and Hodgson for TFC and Winter. LFC have a stable squad of tenure that aren't trying to play a new system. Hodgson did not inherit a bunch of players (Cann, Gargen, Gold, Harden) who quite obviously have difficulty playing the newly adopted system. Kenny came in as a club hero/coach and instilled some confidence in them, they responded with a renewed vigour and a couple of good signings and things are slowly turning around.


I was taking a break, but I cant let this go....

Hodgsons biggest whine was that Rafa left him a poor squad of players. He fucking said that in the press, and sealed his fate in doing so. Liverpool fans dont like the coach blaming the players for their own inadequacies, and we shouldnt either.(re: winters recent outburst)

The reason they were playing like shit was they were trying to follow Hodgsons 'middle of the pack' system, and it went against the grain of everything Liverpool stands for and the players knew it.

Kenny did more than 'instill confidence in the players' he got them to start playing more creatively and freely and anandoned hodgsons system. Previously dodgy players suddenly started scoring hat tricks and braces,

Things arenty 'slowly turninig around' The transition was instantaneous. were winning games with 5 goals even though stevie is on the bench, and were playing the kids. Statistically speaking, if we'd started the season with Kenny, it would have been between us an United for the title.

So your asssessment is somewhat, wrong to say the least.


Toronto doesn't have the luxury of a stable squad, or even a squad that has ever played the possession based football that Winter is trying to instill.

No, we dont have the luxury ofplaying a system that apparently nobody in MLS is able to grasp (except the coaches who want to break it). The way you talk about this 'system' is that its so alien and outlandish that nobody over here could possibly figure it out.... good reason to scrap it if you ask me or we'll be playing 'can he figure out the system' with every single new arrival.


The only way this is ever going to work is if it's given time. Winter understands this and has set low expectations for the club this year. Replace the people who can't play the system, 50% of our backline and I'll be happy(er).


Setting low expectations at the outset is what turned me off Winter to begin with. Its pre fabricating excuses, and if i were inexperienced and unsure about my initial performance in a job, i might do the same.

[ManUtd4ever]

Toronto doesn't have the luxury of a stable squad, or even a squad that has ever played the possession based football that Winter is trying to instill.

The only way this is ever going to work is if it's given time. Winter understands this and has set low expectations for the club this year. Replace the people who can't play the system, 50% of our backline and I'll be happy(er).

People are far to quick to throw Winter under the bus, not just you, but a good portion of this board. We're not going to win jack this season, middle to low table at best. We might win the NCC, but it will be down to luck more than anything. Last nights game proves that.

I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.

Well said.

I agree with those that demand to see tangible improvement after the summer transfer window.

However, given the situation that Winter and Mariner walked into in Toronto, it is absolutely ludicrous to expect them to rebuild this club into a contender a few months into their inaugral season.

To those who are ready to write Winter off in August, all I have to say is, I'm glad you're not my boss. :D

[Roogsy]

You should be glad if your goal is not to perform. Every job on the planet has expectations of it...except the TFC coaching position. If no playoffs is a MUST for this season can we at least agree then a contender and dominant team is a must for next season or should we accept mediocrity again with a hint of success in the form of maybe squeaking into the playoffs? That's called aiming low and its what Mo had us buying into for 4 years. Apparently we haven't learned a thing.

And for the millionth time nobody is writing him off. What we're saying is show us something soon other than excuses.

[Pachuco]

Actually, what I said was that it would be foolish for TFC to offer DeRo a long term, Designated Player contract given his age and the fact that his production would eventually decline. His production has declined this year vs his previous campaigns but there's always a way to spin it and this new "role" thing is apparently the crutch you are hanging on to.

Incidently, are the NYRB equally foolish for not tying up this can't miss, never aging superstar as their 3rd DP?

You folks point to DeRo's departure as a failure of current Management. You use it to suggest they are inept. I call BS on that argument as they effectively unloaded an aging player, with a suck balls attitude, for younger talent.



Stats can be found easily at ESPN.com. That's on the internet.

His year over year shot totals are similar. His goal totals are down.

If he is taking the same number of shots but from weaker positions on the pitch and unable to convert then perhaps he is failing to see better distribution options.

Either way, much more of a season to be played and perhaps he can turn it around. Perhaps the Red Bulls will offer him that 3rd DP slot in the offseason. But as of right now, Winter & Mariner made the absolutely correct decision at this point in time.

Honestly, as with HabsTFC it couldn't be more obvious that you haven't seen him play with NY. Or you would atleast be capable of commenting on anything other then stats you find on your preferred internet site. So I'm going to stop analysing Dero with you, because at the end of the day, you have no credibility on this subject.

[Beach_Red]

I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.

This is a good point. It's really up to Mariner, isn't it? Winter has little experience as a coach but zero in finding players to come to a low-ranked MLS team in Canada. This is where MLSE could really spend some money, there's no salary cap on scouting or kickbacks to agents or bribes (yes, of course, that never happens...)

[v00d00daddy]

Setting low expectations at the outset is what turned me off Winter to begin with. Its pre fabricating excuses, and if i were inexperienced and unsure about my initial performance in a job, i might do the same.

So you were turned off to Winter when the expecations were set low by who exactly? Winter?

So you're saying that you were turned off to Winter when? Before the season even started?


You should be glad if your goal is not to perform. Every job on the planet has expectations of it...except the TFC coaching position. If no playoffs is a MUST for this season can we at least agree then a contender and dominant team is a must for next season or should we accept mediocrity again with a hint of success in the form of maybe squeaking into the playoffs? That's called aiming low and its what Mo had us buying into for 4 years. Apparently we haven't learned a thing.

And for the millionth time nobody is writing him off. What we're saying is show us something soon other than excuses.


Fine...it's semantics Roogsy. You're not writing him off. You just hate everything about him and are giving him some arbitrary amount of time to turn it around.

Whatever.

I'm done with this discussion just like I was with the DeRo topic. It's tiresome.

[menefreghista]

And for the millionth time nobody is writing him off. What we're saying is show us something soon other than excuses.

In a league with a salary cap, where teams with the financial wherewithal (TFC being one of them) can sign a few extraordinary players and 10 of 18 make the playoffs I don't think its unrealistic to expect better, even if you are 'rebuilding'.

[ManUtd4ever]

If no playoffs is a MUST for this season can we at least agree then a contender and dominant team is a must for next season or should we accept mediocrity again with a hint of success in the form of maybe squeaking into the playoffs?

Yes, by next season it is entirely reasonable to expect results, if not a dominant team, at least a team that is comfortably in a playoff spot by the end of the season and is capable of doing some damage in the playoffs.

[Roogsy]

Fine...it's semantics Roogsy. You're not writing him off.

Glad you finally realized it.


You just hate everything about him

Never said that. But I have been vocal about what I don't like about him because I think it impacts the team the most.


and are giving him some arbitrary amount of time to turn it around.

As opposed to giving him no benchmarks at all, no performance measures at all and having no expectations at all? Sounds too familiar.

The schedule I suggest is a compromise between what others have done in short amounts of time and what people on this board seem to be ok with. If he can't even do what I suggest by next year, we're a sad bunch. We might as well just call ourselves the Washington Generals and be done with it.

Do you have ANY expectations of this team or is anything they do, so long as they field 11 guys on a field to kick the ball around, enough for you to be happy? What are more reasonable expectations in your mind?

[flambe]

Hodgsons biggest whine was that Rafa left him a poor squad of players. He fucking said that in the press, and sealed his fate in doing so. Liverpool fans dont like the coach blaming the players for their own inadequacies, and we shouldnt either.(re: winters recent outburst)
I'm not disagreeing, however, the BIG difference here is that the squad was STABLE. TFC is not. Our roster changes drastically year over year. We have never really had a decent core group since day one, mostly due to the ever changing managerial system and their views on who that core group should be.




The reason they were playing like shit was they were trying to follow Hodgsons 'middle of the pack' system, and it went against the grain of everything Liverpool stands for and the players knew it.

Kenny did more than 'instill confidence in the players' he got them to start playing more creatively and freely and anandoned hodgsons system. Previously dodgy players suddenly started scoring hat tricks and braces
Yes of course, but again, the big difference here is that most of the squad already knew how to play free and creative football. The same cannot be said for Toronto.



Things arenty 'slowly turninig around' The transition was instantaneous. were winning games with 5 goals even though stevie is on the bench, and were playing the kids. Statistically speaking, if we'd started the season with Kenny, it would have been between us an United for the title.
Fine, I accept that I downplayed the "instantaneousness??" of his impact.



No, we dont have the luxury of playing a system that apparently nobody in MLS is able to grasp (except the coaches who want to break it). The way you talk about this 'system' is that its so alien and outlandish that nobody over here could possibly figure it out.... good reason to scrap it if you ask me or we'll be playing 'can he figure out the system' with every single new arrival.
Not sure how you got to "alien and outlandish". I was just saying that given our preki era style it's vastly different, and some players are obviously having difficulty with it. I would hope that we have more scouting ability than to sign a player and then hope he can play possession football. Maybe I'm giving the MT too much credit. But I think giving up on it a third of the way into the season (given the changes) because of a slow start is laughable.



Setting low expectations at the outset is what turned me off Winter to begin with. Its pre fabricating excuses, and if i were inexperienced and unsure about my initial performance in a job, i might do the same.
What exactly would you like him to do, set high standards so that you can all ream him out for failing to achieve them instead? It's called being realistic.

[ExiledRed]

So you were turned off to Winter when the expecations were set low by who exactly? Winter?

So you're saying that you were turned off to Winter when? Before the season even started?

Yes, as soon as he started making excuses, which happened to be before a ball was even kicked. I dont want a rookie, who needs all the time in the world to learn how things work around here, I wanted someone with experience, drive and charisma and an understanding that winning games in this league takes as much psychology as it does skill. So far Winter hasnt shown any of these traits, quite the opposite in fact.

Being turned off, doesnt mean I was writing him off though, so give it a rest.

[Section 117]

Actually some if the fans are the ones that are giving him excuses. If I recall he said the expectations were the playoffs but he did state that we are in a rebuilding phase so not to expect instant results

The one thing that some of you are forgetting is that he had two months to start on his vision of what the squad was going to look like. Every other team had an extra two months plus they were all in place at the time. Winter and Mariner didn't have enough time to go and find all of the players they wanted.

[Roogsy]

I know it's quickly dismissed by people on this board, but Winter has had almost the exact same amount of time as Hans Backe did. Winter was hired on January 6, 2011, Backe was hired on January 7, 2010. He turned the team over immediately and started 2010 on fire. He faced almost the exact same scenario as Winter has, with a squad he needed to retool and new talent that needed to be brought in.

It seems Toronto fans are not worthy of loftier expectations.

[pekduck]

I know it's quickly dismissed by people on this board, but Winter has had almost the exact same amount of time as Hans Backe did. Winter was hired on January 6, 2011, Backe was hired on January 7, 2010. He turned the team over immediately and started 2010 on fire. He faced almost the exact same scenario as Winter has, with a squad he needed to retool and new talent that needed to be brought in.

almost the exact same scenario? where does MLSE come in play?:rolleyes:

[ManUtd4ever]

I know it's quickly dismissed by people on this board, but Winter has had almost the exact same amount of time as Hans Backe did. Winter was hired on January 6, 2011, Backe was hired on January 7, 2010. He turned the team over immediately and started 2010 on fire. He faced almost the exact same scenario as Winter has, with a squad he needed to retool and new talent that needed to be brought in.

It seems Toronto fans are not worthy of loftier expectations.

True, but there are examples to support both sides of the discussion.

Hans Backe did produce instant results, and he deserves credit for rebuilding NY into a contending club early last season. He also had the luxury of an MLS brokered deal to sign Henry and Marquez during last summer's transfer window, which bolstered their lineup considerably.

I think RSL and Colorado are prime examples of the typical timeframe in which we can realistically expect positive results after a new regime undertakes a drastic rebuilding assignment with a football club.

[Roogsy]

His exceptional results right from the start did not have the benefit of Henry or Marquez, that's a red herring argument. In fact, signing them in the summer caused a bit of a drag on performance for the first little while.

[Beach_Red]

True, but there are examples to support both sides of the discussion.

Hans Backe did produce instant results, and he deserves credit for rebuilding NY into a contending club early last season. He also had the luxury of an MLS brokered deal to sign Henry and Marquez during last summer's transfer window, which bolstered their lineup considerably.

I think RSL and Colorado are prime examples of the typical timeframe in which we can realistically expect positive results after a new regime undertakes a drastic rebuilding assignment with a football club.

Do you think that up until the debacle of the Cup final in Toronto, MLSE could have gotten more out of MLS? They sure talked big about how important TFC was to the league.

Well they did give us DeRo.

[Pookie]

Honestly, as with HabsTFC it couldn't be more obvious that you haven't seen him play with NY. Or you would atleast be capable of commenting on anything other then stats you find on your preferred internet site. So I'm going to stop analysing Dero with you, because at the end of the day, you have no credibility on this subject.

I feel like i am debating with the George Bush propaganda machine. If you say I have no credibility often enough, without fact, you'll believe it to be true.

I found those stats from the same place you folks did when quoting his multiple goal campaigns as justification for a raise and DP contract. The only difference is now the stats don't suit your argument.

Let's make this simple.

Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?

If not, we agree.

If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?

[Beach_Red]

If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?


You may be putting too much emphasis on the DP tag. The relationship between Deo and management had a lot of problems and that was one of them but maybe not even the main one.

It seems his relationship with the management in NY is better.

[Pachuco]

I feel like i am debating with the George Bush propaganda machine. If you say I have no credibility often enough, without fact, you'll believe it to be true.

I found those stats from the same place you folks did when quoting his multiple goal campaigns as justification for a raise and DP contract. The only difference is now the stats don't suit your argument.

Let's make this simple.

Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?

If not, we agree.

If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?

The difference is, you have nothing but stats to go on when it comes to proving that Dero is apparantly having a bad year with the Red Bull.

When Roogsy and myself tell you that he's worth the money we think he's worth, we are talking not only stats, but personal observations of what he does on the field. We aren't blindly saying "we've never seen Dero play but he had 13 goals last year, so surely he's worth DP money". If that was the case I'd make the same case for Cunningham.

You of course, have no way to give us any personal observations since you haven't watched him play with NY. So although you may be able to pull one stat that isn't as relevant to his role now, you have no way to even comment on why that stat is what it is. When people who have seem him play tell you that he has an entirely different role on a much different team, you choose to ignore it, for the simple fact you can't comment on it.

So continue to throw out your highly technical observation on Wikipedia, but as long as you don't watch him play, I'm fairly certain you can't be credible on this subject.

[Pachuco]

His exceptional results right from the start did not have the benefit of Henry or Marquez, that's a red herring argument. In fact, signing them in the summer caused a bit of a drag on performance for the first little while.

YEAP, and it wouldn't be far from the truth if you said Henry was actually dragging them down until the last 4 or 5 games. Plus he was mostly injured on and off until this season.

Marquez has been an impact since he got here, but Winter also has a La Liga DM DP to work with as well.

And then of course, you are right, we aren't at the summer transfer window. So Hans up to this point last year had certaintly done a much better job.

BTW - What's made NYR a much better team is the acquisitions outside of the DP acquisitions. Rogers, Teemu Tanio, Tim Ream, Lindpere for example. NY is nothing without these guys.

[Pookie]

The difference is....

Let's make this simple.

Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?

If not, we agree.

If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?

[Pachuco]

Let's make this simple.

Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?

If not, we agree.

If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?

From what I read on the NYR boards, there is some agreement that if he plays well this year he'll be their third DP next year. Not sure whether that is valid or not, but who knows, I'm sure Dero will make it known if he's been robbed of another promise when the end of the year comes.

You would think you'd give it more time before you start claiming NY is making the same mistake. Fact of the matter is NY didn't promise him the DP tag when he got there, something TFC made a mistake of doing and they never lived up to their promises, even though in my mind he was overachieving on the field. As much as I liked Dero before he got here, God knows he was unbelievable when wearing a red jersey.

[Whoop]

There is also speculation that NYRB might be bringing in a different DP for their 3rd DP come summertime.

How they can fit everyone under the cap I don't know how they'll do it.

[supersaint]

Regardless of results, I am being more entertained at BMO this season, than I was watching Preki's abysmal style of coaching and woeful communication skills with the local media. He had me about ready to pack in my seasons tix. I do believe that we will eventually be succesful under Winter, maybe not this season, but next season. He hardly has an abundance of talent to work with. I cannot see Preki allowing, never mind encouraging Plata to take on the man and be creative. I love watching Yourra running down the wing, and Eckersley, Soolsma is improving and offers more creativity. Seattle was a disastrous performance admittedly, but even Real, Celtic, Man Utd, and incredibly enough Liverpool, have stinkers. Give the guy a friggin chance.

[habstfc]

There is also speculation that NYRB might be bringing in a different DP for their 3rd DP come summertime.

How they can fit everyone under the cap I don't know how they'll do it.

There is no way NY RED BULLS will make DERO their 3rd DP, why, because they don't have to. They have DERO locked up for 2 more years so there is no reason to. It's not like the guy is 27 or 28 and need to appease him by giving him the DP tag. I think they acquired him to make a push to win this year or if not next. I don't see him being in their plans after next year.

There is definately something funny going on with the salary cap with regards to NY and L.A. Henry, Marquez, and Dero take up almost 40% of their cap space. The number's don't add up,.1.5. million or so for the rest of the roster?