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Batman
05-14-2011, 08:05 PM
Feels Like a loss to me.

TFC07
05-14-2011, 08:07 PM
Yeah, it does feel like a loss. :(

TFCRegina
05-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Again, we'll be lucky to win 5.

Soccerpro
05-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Sadly, we were lucky for 2-2. Santos scores on an awful error by the Fire keeper and Frei makes a wonder save on a breakaway. A fair result, it could be said, would be 3-1 Fire. That tells you just how bad we are.

ExiledRed
05-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Feels Like a loss to me.

and we cant blame the refs this time

TFCRegina
05-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

TorontoGooner
05-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Shite. Bollocks to being patient whilst we "rebuild". That was just bad football, through and through. I've said it once, and i'll say it again, the Dutch style only works if you have the quality of players to do it. MLS players aren't up to scratch

If it wasn't for the Frei wonder save we'd have lost

deltox
05-14-2011, 08:10 PM
One of the best 1st halfs I've seen them play.

TFC14
05-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Fucking shit second half....least City won the FA cup today so i can still go to sleep with a smile on

2mil4dero+santo
05-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Any of you guys still "believe" ...?

smtavare
05-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Fuck Gargan all attacks were on his wing, goal was his and the rest of the d's fault

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

Barely took half a dozen posts before someone decided to try and sarcastically start a fight.

- Scott

A.J
05-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Sadly, we were lucky for 2-2. Santos scores on an awful error by the Fire keeper and Frei makes a wonder save on a breakaway. A fair result, it could be said, would be 3-1 Fire. That tells you just how bad we are.

Same can be said for William's header that Conway saved, the second goal for Chicago that Frei got his hand on but couldn't stop, etc.

There's no "if"s in sports.

ExiledRed
05-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Basically we have to go to Vancouver, and lose by less than we might beat them at BMO.

Im so pleased with the new culture though

gracos
05-14-2011, 08:12 PM
another loss for TFC, this is pathetic

TFC14
05-14-2011, 08:12 PM
^ LOL

smtavare
05-14-2011, 08:12 PM
No energy in second half, man I miss DeRO

Wingback6
05-14-2011, 08:12 PM
Sadly, we were lucky for 2-2. Santos scores on an awful error by the Fire keeper and Frei makes a wonder save on a breakaway. A fair result, it could be said, would be 3-1 Fire. That tells you just how bad we are.

they were lucky to score 2, 1st was a none call, and 2nd probably offside in any other league.

deltox
05-14-2011, 08:13 PM
Plata for stevanovic?

TFCRegina
05-14-2011, 08:13 PM
Any of you guys still "believe" ...?

I believe we made some personnel mistakes this season and we're continuing to do so, all so MLSE management can try to get some bonuses for keeping costs down.

Soccerpro
05-14-2011, 08:14 PM
they were lucky to score 2, 1st was a none call, and 2nd probably offside in any other league.

please don't make excuses

smtavare
05-14-2011, 08:14 PM
Almost losing in the last 15min of the game -- seems like the good ol days!

Redcoe15
05-14-2011, 08:15 PM
They played a great first quarter, a so-so second quarter, and after Marcos' goal early in the second half put them up 2-0, they dug their heels in and let the Fire score two goals in 11 minutes and our side lost the points. What a bitter outcome. It sure felt like a loss tonight. :(

deltox
05-14-2011, 08:16 PM
I'm gonna be positive for a second here. Plata was king today.


Now get back to your bitchfest

bman27
05-14-2011, 08:16 PM
feels so much like a loss, what a shame. The First half they looked like a real team, smart decisions, good passing and some fantastic play. The Turning point was Plata coming off, he's proven to be the spark plug for the team. As soon as he came off the whole team seemed to loss energy, that plus the weather, by the time the second goal happened they looked like a different team, they were making poor choices with the ball, if the passes were not going no where already they were getting picked off. This is a team in desperate need of a proper AM to provide the lifeblood, we shouldn't have to rely on our 19 year old to do that

Dkolish3
05-14-2011, 08:18 PM
Lost composure after first Chicago goal which in my opinion was a goal no matter what Frei did. First half Chicago had most of the ball but did nothing with it, when TFC had the ball they looked dangerous. To be honest Santos goal was a gift, and it retrospect Chicago probably should have won. good games from Soolsma, Plata, De Guz. Our dreaded home field advantage seems to be gone after going 2-3-1 to start the season, which is poor to most others teams home-field record. Maicon better get healthy.

Until next time onto the NCC.

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:18 PM
They played a great first quarter, a so-so second quarter, and after Marcos' goal early in the second half put them up 2-0, they dug their heels in and let the Fire score two goals in 11 minutes and our side lost the points. What a bitter outcome. It sure felt like a loss tonight. :(

I thought we played pretty well right up until the subs started, and we clearly shifted gears strategically. We even continued to take it to them for a short while after the second goal.

Definitely a disappointing outcome, because we looked sharp in the early stages.

- Scott

Redcoe15
05-14-2011, 08:18 PM
I'm gonna be positive for a second here. Plata was king today.
Plata needs to play a full 90. Taking him off was a difference maker tonight.

Jamaicanadian
05-14-2011, 08:19 PM
Plata for stevanovic?

Not a bad exchange in theory.....BUT the side was doing well at that point WTF.....Plata is 19 and was performing well...He cant run a full 90??Mandatory sub @ 60 WTF ...We don't have the depth to make changes like we have depth...

Frei is the man....feels like a loss

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:19 PM
feels so much like a loss, what a shame. The First half they looked like a real team, smart decisions, good passing and some fantastic play. The Turning point was Plata coming off, he's proven to be the spark plug for the team. As soon as he came off the whole team seemed to loss energy, that plus the weather, by the time the second goal happened they looked like a different team, they were making poor choices with the ball, if the passes were not going no where already they were getting picked off. This is a team in desperate need of a proper AM to provide the lifeblood, we shouldn't have to rely on our 19 year old to do that

We definitely need more offensive talent, so that the complexion of the team doesn't change so drastically when we have to bring a guy like Plata off. I agree with you that his sub was the turning point.

- Scott

Mikey
05-14-2011, 08:20 PM
At least I lol'd at the sad bastard planted in the south end to hold up a GOLTV scarf for the cameras.....

Fushida
05-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

Classy.

Blixa
05-14-2011, 08:21 PM
Am I ever glad I didn't renew my season tickets this year.

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:22 PM
Plata needs to play a full 90. Taking him off was a difference maker tonight.

Perhaps Winter thought the team could hang on without him, and wanted to make sure Plata was as fresh as possible for the next contest, instead of having him out there playing what he thought were unnecessary minutes.

I understand why the change was made - it just didn't work in our favour at all. The team lost it's offensive spark, and went into "defensive hang on for dear life" mode - something TFC fans are familiar with.

- Scott

bman27
05-14-2011, 08:23 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

Cause you know we are all cueing up to create the winter must go thread as well......:drinking:

Jamaicanadian
05-14-2011, 08:24 PM
Shakes the kid is 19 not 29.......I didnt understand tha change at the time and dont understand it now

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:26 PM
Shakes the kid is 19 not 29.......I didnt understand tha change at the time and dont understand it now

I understand what you are saying, and I'm sure the kid could play 90 minutes. But 19 year olds suffer injuries and fatigue like anyone else.

- Scott

TFC USA
05-14-2011, 08:26 PM
I thought we did well in the 1st half.

But yeah this team has no hope to do anything this season. At least we're off to a bad start instead of our usual good start and subsequent collapse.

CretanBull
05-14-2011, 08:28 PM
Shakes the kid is 19 not 29.......I didnt understand tha change at the time and dont understand it now

A 19 year old kid from Ecuador, there's a 99% chance that he's been playing since he could walk - chasing a ball is probably what made him first walk! Conditioning and being able to play a full 90 should be the least of his problems.

Jamaicanadian
05-14-2011, 08:30 PM
@ Shakes ...I hear you too bro....I also hear about the coach wanting to bring him along slowly.....kid glove treatment......This is MLS, if he can play he should play.... in part because of our total lack of depth...in part because he wants to use this league as a stepping stone...BTW he looked pissed...

bman27
05-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Shakes the kid is 19 not 29.......I didnt understand tha change at the time and dont understand it now

The only way i understand it is that winter doesn't want the team to become reliant on him creating play all the time, as much as he is already a gifted footballer, he is still growing and developing. I don't know if a 19 year old has the mental strength to carry a team like that

deltox
05-14-2011, 08:32 PM
Best halftime show ever

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:32 PM
I hear you too bro....I also hear about the coach wanting to bring him along slowly.....kid glove treatment......This is MLS, if he can play he should play.... because of our total lack of depth...

Yeah, the lack of depth is the real problem. We need to be able to sub off a 19 year old attacker without the rest of the team wilting like a hot air balloon with the heat removed.

- Scott

TFC USA
05-14-2011, 08:32 PM
Just to liven this thread up:

Jamaicanadian's signature can double as a footballing phrase and his sex life. I say sex life because if you're masturbating for 90 minutes long then you have other issues.

Batman
05-14-2011, 08:33 PM
REALLY AND TRULY....Is here any other city in North America where the cumulative results of their supposed Major League teams are such shit! I can't think of any.

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:33 PM
REALLY AND TRULY....Is here any other city in North America where the cumulative results of their supposed Major League teams are such shit! I can't think of any.

I'm guessing you'd be surprised, haha.

- Scott

DangerRed
05-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Imagine for a second it's 2009... the last game... and they tie.

"This was a hard-fought draw," Cummins said. "They were determined, and we were determined not to lose. I'm happy to be the first coach to take the lads into the playoffs. There is a bit of quality around this squad..."

And a year and a half later, here we are.

v00d00daddy
05-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

I'm going to limit my conversations with you to actual analysis of play. That's it. Xs and Os. Everything else is painful to read when it comes to you.

I'm limiting it to Xs and Os because Im confident that I'll never have to argue that aspect of this game with you because I doubt you know shit on the subject.

Enjoy your evening.

ManUtd4ever
05-14-2011, 08:35 PM
One of our best halves of the season followed by one of our worst. Very disappointing result tonight.

Jamaicanadian
05-14-2011, 08:36 PM
Just to liven this thread up:

Jamaicanadian's signature can double as a footballing phrase and his sex life. I say sex life because if you're masturbating for 90 minutes long then you have other issues.

hahahahahahahaha Actually the phrase has nothing to do with footy...Its about my prowess in the bed room hahahahahahahah

Batman
05-14-2011, 08:37 PM
I'm guessing you'd be surprised, haha.

- Scott

I'd love to see some stats.. because I'm pretty certain Toronto is at the bottom of the barrel.

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 08:39 PM
I'd love to see some stats.. because I'm pretty certain Toronto is at the bottom of the barrel.

Me too. Toronto might be at the bottom this year - to my knowledge no one compiles this kind of stat, but with the internet, you never know.

If you're talking about all-time history, or the last 10-15 years though, I'd be shocked if Toronto are at the bottom.

- Scott

Wingback6
05-14-2011, 08:42 PM
Plata needs to play a full 90. Taking him off was a difference maker tonight.

I disagree, subbing him was the right call, it was just done too early. 10-15min into the second half???

Should have waited till the 80th minute or at least, 70-75th.

The timing was the difference maker.

Jamaicanadian
05-14-2011, 08:45 PM
Why Wingback??? just curious as to your thinking....

bman27
05-14-2011, 08:45 PM
on a lighter point, my favorite part of tonight was seeing plata, "foul" the chicago defender who looked at least 6'2 on a in air play in the box

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 08:49 PM
Get rid of Cann, Gargan and Peterson and we have a team. Brilliant save by Frei to get the point. I think Winter has done well considering the hand he was dealt. Think about it, Cochrane trading away our first round pick and cash for Sturgis not to mention all the crap Preki brought in. We are seeing now how bad Preki was at picking players. I'm ok with Winter for the full 3 years.

DangerRed
05-14-2011, 08:54 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

Like I said before. Cuntish.

denime
05-14-2011, 08:56 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.

Stop trolling or you will get deserved vacation from this board.If you have nothing to bring to the discussion stay out of it.


Keep :troll: and you will get :smash::smash:,now it's up to you.

So now :topic:

@PlainEnglish1
05-14-2011, 08:57 PM
Shite. Bollocks to being patient whilst we "rebuild". That was just bad football, through and through. I've said it once, and i'll say it again, the Dutch style only works if you have the quality of players to do it. MLS players aren't up to scratch

If it wasn't for the Frei wonder save we'd have lost

Very true, its hard to change the style of certain players sometimes based on their nationality. It will be hard to bring the dutch style to the MLS with mostly MLS players as you have to be VERY technical which is why im sure Winter will look to gradually weed out quite a few players and gradually bring others who will fit the system.

adam1001
05-14-2011, 09:00 PM
Although the second half was sh*t all around, can we please relax with the fouls. I've lost count of the number of goals we've given up that were the result of stupid tackles around the box.

Toronto_Bhoy
05-14-2011, 09:07 PM
Regardless of why, Plata's exit was the turning point in the game. All that positive energy he generate tonight at BMO left when he was subbed. You could feel it right there in the park.

He really is a delightful "spark" that, IMO, this team has never really had. Unfortunately, only he, Eckersley and Frei are all we really have and maybe Tchani.

Santos, JDG, Gargan, Stevanovic and Peterson are nothing but passengers on a train going nowhere.

Kudos to the South End…never gave up.

sashavukelich
05-14-2011, 09:09 PM
Yeah, the lack of depth is the real problem. We need to be able to sub off a 19 year old attacker without the rest of the team wilting like a hot air balloon with the heat removed.

- Scott

THIS! Scotty you nailed it man, this and your previous post about us needing a player who can really retain possession.

I watched NE vs VWC (Nice game full of excellent passing), and man if we had Joseph/Feilhaber, we'd be bloody destroyers.

billyfly
05-14-2011, 09:28 PM
I knew we needed that 3rd goal if we wanted our 3rd win.

@PlainEnglish1
05-14-2011, 09:28 PM
THIS! Scotty you nailed it man, this and your previous post about us needing a player who can really retain possession.

I watched NE vs VWC (Nice game full of excellent passing), and man if we had Joseph/Feilhaber, we'd be bloody destroyers.

Isn't that Julian?

MG42
05-14-2011, 09:28 PM
Shmee again

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/sd/toronto_fc_130410/dan_gargan_5459289.jpg

Soccerpro
05-14-2011, 09:32 PM
Regardless of why, Plata's exit was the turning point in the game. All that positive energy he generate tonight at BMO left when he was subbed. You could feel it right there in the park.

He really is a delightful "spark" that, IMO, this team has never really had. Unfortunately, only he, Eckersley and Frei are all we really have and maybe Tchani.

Santos, JDG, Gargan, Stevanovic and Peterson are nothing but passengers on a train going nowhere.

Kudos to the South End…never gave up.

Wrong. The turning point was Peterson's foul at the top of the box that led to their goal from the resulting free kick. It was all one way traffic toward the Fire's end before that play. Mental lapse #107 so far this season by TFC's players

rocktml
05-14-2011, 09:32 PM
I TOLD YOU GUYS!!!!!!

From pre-game thread:
Rocktml- "The boys arent winning tonight. Draw at best."

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 09:34 PM
Isn't that Julian?

yep, meant to be. For close to $2M a season you would hope so.

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 09:35 PM
Regardless of why, Plata's exit was the turning point in the game. All that positive energy he generate tonight at BMO left when he was subbed. You could feel it right there in the park.

He really is a delightful "spark" that, IMO, this team has never really had. Unfortunately, only he, Eckersley and Frei are all we really have and maybe Tchani.

Santos, JDG, Gargan, Stevanovic and Peterson are nothing but passengers on a train going nowhere.

Kudos to the South End…never gave up.

Bit harsh, Santos, JDG and Stevanovic can play but they all flatter to deceive. The other two are just plain crap.

CretanBull
05-14-2011, 09:45 PM
Jamaicanadian's signature can double as a footballing phrase and his sex life. I say sex life because if you're masturbating for 90 minutes long then you have other issues.

I'm not sure what's more disturbing, our team's late game collapse or the image that you've put in my mind by saying this! :D

@PlainEnglish1
05-14-2011, 09:45 PM
yep, meant to be. For close to $2M a season you would hope so.

Shalrie would make a world of difference if he was playing CM for TFC.

ps, i hope you dont play for Toronto Celtic lol

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 09:47 PM
Does anyone have any stats as to how we compare with previous TFC teams over the same amount of games played? We can all try to be positive but our results this season are abysmal. Currently we are averaging one point per game, this means we are dropping two per game out of a possible three, it is simply not good enough. The other thing to consider is that we have more away games coming up in the second half of the season, results are the most important part of the game and we are not delivering. Things need to start picking up soon or season ticket sales will in my opinion fall quite a bit for next season and the TFC 'experience' is going to be a whole lot worse in a half empty stadium. Basically I reckon that TFC is on a big downward spiral if they dont pick it up this season, that will harm the club as a whole an awful lot.

jazzy
05-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Am I ever glad I didn't renew my season tickets this year.

I'm glad you didn't too

ExiledRed
05-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Does anyone have any stats as to how we compare with previous TFC teams over the same amount of games played? We can all try to be positive but our results this season are abysmal.

Winter has failed the Preki test, the Carver test and the Cummins test.

But were improving the culture.

lobo
05-14-2011, 09:51 PM
why are we so bad defensively? there is no complicated system when it comes to defending, it's pressure, cover, balance ... guys will get beat 1 v 1, that;s why there has to be defensive support, and we just don't do this ... makes my blood boil seeing this shite in our own end

grrrrr

fack

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Am I ever glad I didn't renew my season tickets this year.

:picard: Not sure why you posted this on a supporter forum. Good job on not supporting the team! You really showed them.

rocker
05-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Loved Plata tonight. Backheels, great passes, goal, energy, works hard. I wonder if by season's end he'll be considered the steal of the draft, since he went late for someone who seems to be a starter now.

On the other side of things, Gargan shouldn't be a starter. He's barely capable of playing in Major League Soccer. He's an NASL/USL guy or a back of the bench sub when starters go down. Everything he does is right on the edge between success and failure. He's a hard working guy but gets beat so often. Then he scrambles when he doesn't have to.

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 09:57 PM
Winter has failed the Preki test, the Carver test and the Cummins test.

But were improving the culture.

My biggest problem is that it does not take a genius to work out who is really crap in our team, for starters we have Peterson and Gargan. Why does Winter persist with these two? For me I would be willing to give anyone a chance over these two even if it were youth players. What exactly does he see in these two, I cannot see what he can see that is for sure? Before anyone says it, yep I think Peterson is beyond sh!t, nothing personal but the boy is pure crap for $140,000 a season, it really pisses me off.

rocker
05-14-2011, 09:59 PM
why are we so bad defensively?
fack

guess it's just talent. Gargan isn't capable. Cann does some things very well and some things very poorly. Cann can head and clear a ball, but sometimes whiffs when players are in close (like today) and isn't a good passer.. get a speedy player near him and he's often beat (unless he scrambles and makes some awkward tackle). Dicoy Williams is alright but seems stretched to play 90 minutes (I think he's better than Nana at passing and almost as good physically as Nana). Eckersley is the only one I would say is a solid MLS defender.

ExiledRed
05-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Does anyone have any stats as to how we compare with previous TFC teams over the same amount of games played?

2007
(Mo Johnston)
3-6-1 (10pts)


2008
(Johnston/Carver)
5-3-2 (17 pts)

2009
(Carver/Cummins)
3-3-4 (13 pts)

2010
(Preki)
5-4-1 (16pts)

2011
(Winter-Mariner)
2-3-5 (11pts)

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 10:01 PM
why are we so bad defensively? there is no complicated system when it comes to defending, it's pressure, cover, balance ... guys will get beat 1 v 1, that;s why there has to be defensive support, and we just don't do this ... makes my blood boil seeing this shite in our own end

grrrrr

fack

We have second division defenders, that's why. Not holding the ball well in the attack doesn't help either. Last year the whole team defended so there wasn't as much pressure on the crappy defenders. I think there is only so much you can do in one season.

NEWPY
05-14-2011, 10:01 PM
[QUOTE=torontocelt;1299064]My biggest problem is that it does not take a genius to work out who is really crap in our team, for starters we have Peterson and Gargan. Why does Winter persist with these two? For me I would be willing to give anyone a chance over these two even if it were youth players. What exactly does he see in these two, I cannot see what he can see that is for sure? Before anyone says it, yep I think Peterson is beyond sh!t, nothing personal but the boy is pure crap for $140,000 a season, it really pisses me off.[/QUOT Gargan would not make any other teams roster. plain and simple he BLOWS

Juanito
05-14-2011, 10:02 PM
People have said it, but Plata's substitution was definitely the turning point. His youthful exuberance is what the rest of the guys need to keep them on their toes. Once he was gone, there was a collective brain fart and they absorbed pressure until they cracked.

Winter needs to instil discipline into this squad. It's a bit concerning that they can't last 90 minutes and can't defend a two-goal lead.

Toronto_Bhoy
05-14-2011, 10:03 PM
Wrong. The turning point was Peterson's foul at the top of the box that led to their goal from the resulting free kick. It was all one way traffic toward the Fire's end before that play. Mental lapse #107 so far this season by TFC's players

When Plata exited TFC's entire team shape changed.

Fire's back line only had to contend with one up front, Santos, which meant they could play a higher line and push forward. With Stevenovic replacing Plata the pitch tilted and we are not good enough to defend.

The Fire's first goal was only a matter of time. I would have brought Marta on and kept their back line in their half of the field. Peterson's foul was just an all-to-common TFC mind fart. We were on our heels from the time a forward was subbed for a midfielder.

A tactical strategy that Winter gambled on…and lost.

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 10:03 PM
2007
(Mo Johnston)
3-6-1 (10pts)


2008
(Johnston/Carver)
5-3-2 (17 pts)

2009
(Carver/Cummins)
3-3-4 (13 pts)

2010
(Preki)
5-4-1 (16pts)

2011
(Winter-Mariner)
2-3-5 (11pts)


Might be going out on a limb but I don't think we will shit the bed late in the season this year. These stats don't take that into account.

Beach_Red
05-14-2011, 10:06 PM
Might be going out on a limb but I don't think we will shit the bed late in the season this year. These stats don't take that into account.

That's what we're counting on. So, will there be new players or will these guys get better? Because one thing we can count on is the opposition will be better late in the season.

flamehawk
05-14-2011, 10:09 PM
There is no way Gargan would've started today had Borman not been away for personal reasons and Yourassawsky injured.

Who else could we star though minus Borman and Yourass? Would you try Morgan? Attakora?

I think Omphroy deserves a chance, he can't be any worse than Gargan.

MG42
05-14-2011, 10:09 PM
W- L- D after 11 games

2007---4-6-1---13pts--7 home games

2008---5-4-2---17pts--6 home games

2009---4-3-4---16pts--7 home games

2010---5-4-2---17pts--5 home games

2011---2-4-5---11pts--7 home games

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 10:12 PM
My biggest problem is that it does not take a genius to work out who is really crap in our team, for starters we have Peterson and Gargan. Why does Winter persist with these two? For me I would be willing to give anyone a chance over these two even if it were youth players. What exactly does he see in these two, I cannot see what he can see that is for sure? Before anyone says it, yep I think Peterson is beyond sh!t, nothing personal but the boy is pure crap for $140,000 a season, it really pisses me off.

I think Winter has dealt well with what he inherited and until there is a replacement that will fit the criteria that he is looking for, including salary cap, his hands are tied. Winter didn't pick Peterson or Gargan so he is stuck with dealing with their contracts and finding replacements. Winter had a lot of positions to fill in a short period of time....can't blame him for crap left over from last year. He has to play somebody and the rookies just don't have the experience to step in.

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 10:14 PM
2007
(Mo Johnston)
3-6-1 (10pts)


2008
(Johnston/Carver)
5-3-2 (17 pts)

2009
(Carver/Cummins)
3-3-4 (13 pts)

2010
(Preki)
5-4-1 (16pts)

2011
(Winter-Mariner)
2-3-5 (11pts)

It will be interesting to see how the fans react in a few months if results continue like this that is for sure. No matter what anyone says here, football is a results driven business. Players, managers and owners live by the sword and die by the sword. If people in Toronto dont think that then they have been well and truly brain washed by MLSE, Leafs fans are already proof of that.

rocker
05-14-2011, 10:14 PM
W- L- D after 11 games

2007---4-6-1---13pts--7 home games

2008---5-4-2---17pts--6 home games

2009---4-3-4---16pts--7 home games

2010---5-4-2---17pts--5 home games

interesting stats....none of those teams kept up that point-per-game pace.
So generally they started strong and fell down after that.

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 10:15 PM
I think Winter has dealt well with what he inherited and until there is a replacement that will fit the criteria that he is looking for, including salary cap, his hands are tied. Winter didn't pick Peterson or Gargan so he is stuck with dealing with their contracts and finding replacements. Winter had a lot of positions to fill in a short period of time....can't blame him for crap left over from last year. He has to play somebody and the rookies just don't have the experience to step in.

Isn't the Ajax system all about giving youth a chance? Like I said I would rather experiment with youth than have these two in the side, what exactly do we have to lose, our results already are not good enough.

kaos197O
05-14-2011, 10:17 PM
My biggest problem is that it does not take a genius to work out who is really crap in our team, for starters we have Peterson and Gargan. Why does Winter persist with these two? For me I would be willing to give anyone a chance over these two even if it were youth players. What exactly does he see in these two, I cannot see what he can see that is for sure? Before anyone says it, yep I think Peterson is beyond sh!t, nothing personal but the boy is pure crap for $140,000 a season, it really pisses me off.
They must practice hard and give it their ALL. :rolleyes:

Good night out with the boys but DAMN, what happened to the atmosphere at home? Chicago had more flags and were givin er for tue full 90. Much of BMO was a mOrgue. BOO! Anyhow, not much to say really, other than wE are not good enough.

BTW, Halifax Donair in Milton(Burlington too) really brings it, down home style. I highly recommend to all East Coasters looking for a good donair fix. Mmmmmmmmm, delicious.

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 10:17 PM
That's what we're counting on. So, will there be new players or will these guys get better? Because one thing we can count on is the opposition will be better late in the season.

Agree, MLS definitely gets better as the season goes on. I think a couple of decent signings are imminent. I like the patience of this management team in their search for the right players.

Juanito
05-14-2011, 10:17 PM
It will be interesting to see how the fans are react in a few months if results continue like this that is for sure. No matter what anyone says here, football is a results driven business. Players, managers and owners live by the sword and die by the sword. If people in Toronto dont think that then they have been well and truly brain washed by MLSE, Leafs fans are already proof of that.

Personally, I'm ready to give Winter et. al. a pass for the year, as long as we are entertaining.

However, I know that people's patience with this club is very thin and they are ready to burn someone at the stake.

Still .... this LOSS (because at home, that is what a draw is) is hard to swallow.

Sweeper
05-14-2011, 10:22 PM
Isn't the Ajax system all about giving youth a chance? Like I said I would rather experiment with youth than have these two in the side, what exactly do we have to lose, our results already are not good enough.

I think Plata was a decent experiment and at this point I don't think we have that much youth depth or Winter would be taking advantage of it.

Auzzy
05-14-2011, 10:24 PM
There is no way Gargan would've started today had Borman not been away for personal reasons and Yourassawsky injured.

Who else could we star though minus Borman and Yourass? Would you try Morgan? Attakora?

I think Omphroy deserves a chance, he can't be any worse than Gargan.

Very good points. Some other posters don't seem to have the info from JMo's article: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/14/sp-mls-fire-tfc.html

i.e., Yourassowsky injury & Borman absence. However, I agree -- don't know why Omphroy or someone else doesn't get a chance above Gargan.

Something that I thought was great early in the game: Toronto was pressuring all over the field, usually first to the ball, giving Chicago little time to control the ball, leading to lots of turnovers in Toronto's favour, and protecting Toronto's backline from too much pressure. You know, the kind of play that everyone else has been employing vs. Toronto this season.

Towards the end, that all went to shit. Toronto was 2nd to every ball, no control, little pressure...

Juanito
05-14-2011, 10:27 PM
You tell them Frei:

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=3122

jazzy
05-14-2011, 10:28 PM
just feel our first touch and pass, again, lets us down, after some hard work defensively, we give the ball away , clearly too often , usually at midfield. And as much as I admire Stevanovich's drive and skillset, pass the fookin ball, when he sees 2/3 opposing players, he's like bull seeing red, and has to take them on...usually giving up the ball...same for Tchaini, who is a hard worker, his passes to nowhere are hurting us

Walnut
05-14-2011, 10:30 PM
2007
(Mo Johnston)
3-6-1 (10pts)


2008
(Johnston/Carver)
5-3-2 (17 pts)

2009
(Carver/Cummins)
3-3-4 (13 pts)

2010
(Preki)
5-4-1 (16pts)

2011
(Winter-Mariner)
2-3-5 (11pts)

And the wheels have yet to fall off during the Gold Cup - we still have that to look forward to.

jazzy
05-14-2011, 10:31 PM
We have second division defenders, that's why. Not holding the ball well in the attack doesn't help either. Last year the whole team defended so there wasn't as much pressure on the crappy defenders. I think there is only so much you can do in one season.

just read it , harsh on the defenders, mls capable, but well put

Jeffro
05-14-2011, 10:33 PM
Cue Pookie and v00d00 defending the brilliant coach that's getting us draws at home and losses on the road.


Again, we'll be lucky to win 5.

Cue Regina, trolling the board as usual.

If that first quote isn't an infraction, calling out and baiting members like that, I don't know what is.

torontocelt
05-14-2011, 10:39 PM
I think Plata was a decent experiment and at this point I don't think we have that much youth depth or Winter would be taking advantage of it.

Agreed, Plata has been great. He is a decent player and works really hard, that is what all our players should be doing. If you are a limited player you can make up for it with hard work, if you are a decent player and dont work hard then you are a liability. All of our team should be working their socks off like Plata, they should chase after every winnable ball and pressure the opposition whilst keeping shape. If they done that they would go a long way with making up for their short comings.

Juanito
05-14-2011, 10:40 PM
Jeffro ....

http://warriorwriters.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/troll.jpg

HA HA HA! I say this in pure jest folks! Come on guys, let's move on ... TFCRegina has his opinion, no need to start a dumpfest ... damn this squad makes for very unhappy supporters .... start winning DAMMIT!!

lobo
05-14-2011, 10:42 PM
guess it's just talent. Gargan isn't capable. Cann does some things very well and some things very poorly. Cann can head and clear a ball, but sometimes whiffs when players are in close (like today) and isn't a good passer.. get a speedy player near him and he's often beat (unless he scrambles and makes some awkward tackle). Dicoy Williams is alright but seems stretched to play 90 minutes (I think he's better than Nana at passing and almost as good physically as Nana). Eckersley is the only one I would say is a solid MLS defender.

i'm not talking about clearing the ball or passing it out ... i'm talking about simple defending tactics ... gargan jockeys bone inside the box, slows him down, but nobody gets behind to provide cover support (deguz and peterson both nearby), gargan gets beat cause he jumps in like a schoolboy (duh), and bone puts a ball across the goal, then eckersly and dicoy both play the ball (neither gets it) while Barouch is left alone to attack the far post, goal ... cann held a good position marking chaves, peterson doing dick all, only soolsma rushing in from the wing to mark Barouch (too late, but he shouldn't have to do that if our defenders were doing their job) ... simple defending by a U18 girls team would have prevented that goal ... get behind the ball, cover the defender pressuring the ball, balanced goalside marking, stay with your man ... this is simple stuff, no need for a lot of passing talent (that helps the counter attack) ... too much ball watching in front of our goal, and not enough basic simple defending, it's just fackin ugly to watch

Juanito
05-14-2011, 10:44 PM
I agree with lobo ... this team lacks some basic defensive skills. They get way too cute in the box for my comfort and it tends to bite them in the arse.

Jeffro
05-14-2011, 10:45 PM
Jeffro ....

http://warriorwriters.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/troll.jpg

HA HA HA! Come on guys, let's move on ... TFCRegina has his opinion, no need to start a dumpfest ... damn this squad makes for very unhappy supporters .... start winning DAMMIT!!

So state an opinion, don't try to start shit with your fellow supporters.

Derko
05-14-2011, 10:55 PM
Fuck Gargan all attacks were on his wing, goal was his and the rest of the d's fault

^Which goal???

First Chicago goal was a free kick off of a shit call by the referee, Frei had no chance, after that TFC started playing behind the ball, no attack, result was Chicago pressed for another goal, which Frei got a hand to it but a slidin Chicago player directed it in, It wasn't even on Gargan's side of the pitch!!! One of the finest 60 minutes TFC have ever played, creative and using the whole field. I'll take the draw for actually seeing good football for an hour. My opinion, that's all

lobo
05-14-2011, 10:55 PM
I agree with lobo ... this team lacks some basic defensive skills. They get way too cute in the box for my comfort and it tends to bite them in the arse.

thanks juan ... and i agree with those calling for some our youth defenders to get some minutes in

Derko
05-14-2011, 11:04 PM
No energy in second half, man I miss DeRO

Agree on the no energy, but hey man Dero is gone

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 11:06 PM
Personally, I'm ready to give Winter et. al. a pass for the year, as long as we are entertaining.

However, I know that people's patience with this club is very thin and they are ready to burn someone at the stake.

Still .... this LOSS (because at home, that is what a draw is) is hard to swallow.

As long as I see tangible development in the roster, and the way we play, over the course of the season - I'm okay with the team not garnering great results this season. It doesn't make you feel any better after a game like tonight, but after a few days, that sense of perspective seeps back in for me.

This has been my stance since before the season started. I'm okay with taking the season to lay a strong foundation, as long as it's clear that foundation is being laid. That's impossible to gauge from mere results - especially a small and relatively early sample of games - because the reality is a lot of these guys will be gone over the course of this season and the winter.

Other people are less patient, or don't think such time is necessary, and I understand those points of view. Where I get angry, is when these views are belittled as apologist, or being a "sheep" for MLSE, or whatever.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
05-14-2011, 11:07 PM
So state an opinion, don't try to start shit with your fellow supporters.

Yeah, articulating an opinion isn't the same as taking unprovoked potshots at fellow supporters.

- Scott

Derko
05-14-2011, 11:08 PM
Wrong. The turning point was Peterson's foul at the top of the box that led to their goal from the resulting free kick. It was all one way traffic toward the Fire's end before that play. Mental lapse #107 so far this season by TFC's players

Was it really a foul, didn't look like one from 110. looked like Peterson just stole the ball and the man went to ground.

Derko
05-14-2011, 11:12 PM
thanks juan ... and i agree with those calling for some our youth defenders to get some minutes in

I have been unhappy with Cann's getting cute with the ball so far this year, he really can be a shitty defender, someone said Nana's distribution was poor, Cann's is horrible to say the least, yet he gets every start.wtf

leafsman
05-14-2011, 11:15 PM
That second goal was gargan fault, he was the one that got beat to let the guy send the ball across. he was brutal as usual

Heathen
05-14-2011, 11:17 PM
Best halftime show ever

"We all dream of a team of Joao Platas!"

lobo
05-14-2011, 11:18 PM
^Which goal???

First Chicago goal was a free kick off of a shit call by the referee, Frei had no chance, after that TFC started playing behind the ball, no attack, result was Chicago pressed for another goal, which Frei got a hand to it but a slidin Chicago player directed it in, It wasn't even on Gargan's side of the pitch!!! One of the finest 60 minutes TFC have ever played, creative and using the whole field. I'll take the draw for actually seeing good football for an hour. My opinion, that's all

fire's second goal started with a direct attack on gargan, and gargan lost badly ... so, yes the goal did not happen on gargan's side, but the attack leading to the goal did... can't blame the goal entirely on gargan though, because nobody covered his stupid move, and barouch was left unmarked at far post

some piss poor defending washed out all that creativity you admired

(btw, nice much-needed win by the tangerines today)

jazzy
05-14-2011, 11:18 PM
Was it really a foul, didn't look like one from 110. looked like Peterson just stole the ball and the man went to ground.

yes thats what I saw, and in a sense another game decided by the ref.....that was good defending, he got btwn his player and had the ball, then on cue other player drops and ref calls foul ,........just don;t get it Plata gets kicked all night long and nothing and simple dives bam, foul

Derko
05-14-2011, 11:20 PM
i'm not talking about clearing the ball or passing it out ... i'm talking about simple defending tactics ... gargan jockeys bone inside the box, slows him down, but nobody gets behind to provide cover support (deguz and peterson both nearby), gargan gets beat cause he jumps in like a schoolboy (duh), and bone puts a ball across the goal, then eckersly and dicoy both play the ball (neither gets it) while Barouch is left alone to attack the far post, goal ... cann held a good position marking chaves, peterson doing dick all, only soolsma rushing in from the wing to mark Barouch (too late, but he shouldn't have to do that if our defenders were doing their job) ... simple defending by a U18 girls team would have prevented that goal ... get behind the ball, cover the defender pressuring the ball, balanced goalside marking, stay with your man ... this is simple stuff, no need for a lot of passing talent (that helps the counter attack) ... too much ball watching in front of our goal, and not enough basic simple defending, it's just fackin ugly to watch



I actually agree on some of your comments about defending, they need to be addressed.

I hope it is enough for Blackpool, but I don't think so, TFC=Blakpool of Canada!!

kaos197O
05-14-2011, 11:23 PM
As long as I see tangible development in the roster, and the way we play, over the course of the season - I'm okay with the team not garnering great results this season. It doesn't make you feel any better after a game like tonight, but after a few days, that sense of perspective seeps back in for me.

This has been my stance since before the season started. I'm okay with taking the season to lay a strong foundation, as long as it's clear that foundation is being laid. That's impossible to gauge from mere results - especially a small and relatively early sample of games - because the reality is a lot of these guys will be gone over the course of this season and the winter.

Other people are less patient, or don't think such time is necessary, and I understand those points of view. Where I get angry, is when these views are belittled as apologist, or being a "sheep" for MLSE, or whatever.

- Scott

Not that it means much but after watching the TFC Academy U17's today, it looks as if defense may be an ongoing issue! I was surprised at how small the midfield was(yet seemingly strong) and how nicely the team passed as a whole, but the finishing, and more so the defending, was pretty lousy today. Granted, the team is brand new, as many from last year are gone but......

I think we have to hope for improvements all the way around TBH!

madcow
05-14-2011, 11:27 PM
I wasn't able to watch the game and I may have missed the answer to my question in a previous post;b ut if Plata was playing another strong game why was he subbed off? Was he losing pace? Was it for defensive purposes? Was Winter saving him for next game? I ask because as someone pointed out earlier, he's young and he's been a spark plug for our offense.

lobo
05-14-2011, 11:31 PM
in my earlier analysis of the defensive breakdown on chicago's 2nd goal, I said cann was the only player in a good position ... having re-watched the goal, it was cann's lousy header that failed to clear the box that led to the attack that led to the goal, so i guess all four of our backs failed on that one

Auzzy
05-14-2011, 11:31 PM
I wasn't able to watch the game and I may have missed the answer to my question in a previous post;b ut if Plata was playing another strong game why was he subbed off? Was he losing pace? Was it for defensive purposes? Was Winter saving him for next game? I ask because as someone pointed out earlier, he's young and he's been a spark plug for our offense.

^ Winter said Plata was tired, and he generally doesn't want to overuse a 19-year old. Considering Stevanovich's salary and """""pedigree"""" you would really think he would be able to deliver, and be a decent replacement of Plata, especially vs. some tired defenders. But no, still likes to dribble when 4 Chicago players are on him, and didn't finish the 1v1 vs Conway.

madcow
05-14-2011, 11:33 PM
Thanks for the update Auzzy.

Fushida
05-14-2011, 11:43 PM
to sum it up, every year it goes like this for us:

1. "throwaway year" "new management" "rebuilding" "needs to give them time to build their team"

2. some new signings... hype hype hype hype hype... more hype

3. meaningless friendly results, more hype. team starts to "look" good, hype has caused most supporters to change views and think they can actually live up to the hype.

4. lose a few games, or a few bad results.. "team is shit" "mlse is at fault" "manager must go" "manager is shit"

5. cycle back to 1 at end of season.

habstfc
05-15-2011, 12:10 AM
Stevanovic has to score on that chance when it was 2-1 tonight. If he does, all is well and we win tonight.

I dont have the same outlook of doom and gloom many on here seem to have. If we win tonight and dallas doesn't get that phantom call the other night, combined with the crew game which we probably win if that red isn't given to tchani for celebrating his goal we could be sitting on 16 points right now. Sooner or later some of theses draws wil turn into wins for us. If you look at the standings we're still hanging in there.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 12:37 AM
A 19 year old kid from Ecuador, there's a 99% chance that he's been playing since he could walk - chasing a ball is probably what made him first walk! Conditioning and being able to play a full 90 should be the least of his problems.


This is not a stereotype or an insult but when I was in Ecuador visiting a few years ago, I passed by a poor town in a rural area. Little kids were playing in a sandy, pebbly lot in sandals and sometimes no shoes at all, kicking an old ball (hopefully as it may not even have been a ball) playing a game of pick up soccer. No CSA, no OSA, no Academy, just kids having fun. And that's where I realized Canada, with all the money in the world and all the organization we could have (which we don't at the national level) cannot compete with these tiny poor countries until the system allows kids to play with joy.

Plata plays with joy and I love watching him. He's the only bright spot I see on this team and I have to credit the decision to draft him. I may get his jersey, even if he's just a loaned player.

P.S. On the topic of his conditioning, Plata's rights are owned by Quito, which means he plays in the Andes mountains in the thin air. And Ecuador's average temperature on the coast (where most of the league games are played) is high 80s F. Conditioning is not an issue for this kid. I am sure he'd outlast anyone on the team.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 12:41 AM
People have said it, but Plata's substitution was definitely the turning point. His youthful exuberance is what the rest of the guys need to keep them on their toes. Once he was gone, there was a collective brain fart and they absorbed pressure until they cracked.

Winter needs to instil discipline into this squad. It's a bit concerning that they can't last 90 minutes and can't defend a two-goal lead.


I am not going to comment on the game other this point:

If a 19 year old, 5 foot nothing, loaned player making league minimum that nobody has ever heard of is subbed off and your team goes into the tank, what does it say about your team or your management?

DichioTFC
05-15-2011, 12:57 AM
You tell them Frei:

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=3122

Frei is a fucking boss. Re-quoting so everyone can watch Frei's comments. Cue "The Game is 90 Minutes" banner.


Cue Regina, trolling the board as usual.

If that first quote isn't an infraction, calling out and baiting members like that, I don't know what is.

Regina is just as frustrated as I'm sure we all are. I don't agree with him calling a couple people out, but let's keep in context, we're all either disappointed or used to this shit.

jloome
05-15-2011, 01:12 AM
Jesus, I see it's the usual sterling analysis on the board tonight.

Look, we didn't lose two points because Plata came off. We lost two points because Chicago switched to a 4-4-2 from a 4-5-1, pushed an extra player higher up the field, allowing them to advance the play quickly a couple of times when we were expecting to be able to full-field press them.

Chicago beat our pressure a couple of times and we stopped pushing up field reflexively. It was naive play, but it wasn't caused by Plata sub'ing out. In fact, Stevanovic hustled when he came on.

And this wasn't another awful performance. So many armchair fucking generals. We dominated up until the 55th minute, then didn't tactically adjust, and went to sleep. It happens. It's not a condemnation of the current regime.

And even if it were, what the fuck would you guys suggest, exactly, that might actually be productive? Firing our fifth manager in five years? Fat fucking lot of good that would do.

A little perspective; we're not even last in our division, but people are acting like we're the worst team in the league.

DichioTFC
05-15-2011, 01:23 AM
I'm a bit of an optimist / TFC apologist here, but even I can't help but think we lost two points today. There was a hilarious moment in the GO tunnel post-game... Fans were chanting "TFC *clap clap clap*" while me and TFCvBuffalo were chanting "Lost Two Points" where the claps were. Needless to say, the TFC chant died a quick death lol.

Still, there were positive signs from this game. The players are learning the system, we're controlling the ball, we're getting chances early. Most players have improved. Packing it in after the 65' is something new for Winter to address, but the entire game prior to that point had the potential to be the turning point of our season.

Right now, according to this http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html, we have a 10.3% chance of making the playoffs. Win our next two league games, that chance grows to 22.4%. Our next game (which wasn't posted) will be against bottom feeder Sporting KC. Point being, there's a lot of soccer left to play. And as the team improves, the results will follow.

Biggest game of the season thus far is on Wednesday. On to the next one.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 01:27 AM
I am not sure I understand your point Jeremy. You say we got outcoached and outplayed when it counted most, but we shouldn't be upset about that?

DichioTFC
05-15-2011, 01:27 AM
Jesus, I see it's the usual sterling analysis on the board tonight.

Look, we didn't lose two points because Plata came off. We lost two points because Chicago switched to a 4-4-2 from a 4-5-1, pushed an extra player higher up the field, allowing them to advance the play quickly a couple of times when we were expecting to be able to full-field press them.

Chicago beat our pressure a couple of times and we stopped pushing up field reflexively. It was naive play, but it wasn't caused by Plata sub'ing out. In fact, Stevanovic hustled when he came on.

And this wasn't another awful performance. So many armchair fucking generals. We dominated up until the 55th minute, then didn't tactically adjust, and went to sleep. It happens. It's not a condemnation of the current regime.

And even if it were, what the fuck would you guys suggest, exactly, that might actually be productive? Firing our fifth manager in five years? Fat fucking lot of good that would do.

A little perspective; we're not even last in our division, but people are acting like we're the worst team in the league.

Jeremy's unnecessary flaming aside, I generally agree with him. We have a lot of soccer left to play. The catalyst for the collapse was Peterson's sloppy tackle and the ensuing lack of confidence. Yes, we've seen players switch off late in games before, but it's something new for this group of players to do it. Until it happens again, I'm willing to consider it a one-off occurrence.

phonzo
05-15-2011, 01:36 AM
sigh....finally home and honestly the only comment on that game i have is...WTF

Shakes McQueen
05-15-2011, 01:45 AM
Jesus, I see it's the usual sterling analysis on the board tonight.

Look, we didn't lose two points because Plata came off. We lost two points because Chicago switched to a 4-4-2 from a 4-5-1, pushed an extra player higher up the field, allowing them to advance the play quickly a couple of times when we were expecting to be able to full-field press them.

Chicago beat our pressure a couple of times and we stopped pushing up field reflexively. It was naive play, but it wasn't caused by Plata sub'ing out. In fact, Stevanovic hustled when he came on.

And this wasn't another awful performance. So many armchair fucking generals. We dominated up until the 55th minute, then didn't tactically adjust, and went to sleep. It happens. It's not a condemnation of the current regime.

And even if it were, what the fuck would you guys suggest, exactly, that might actually be productive? Firing our fifth manager in five years? Fat fucking lot of good that would do.

A little perspective; we're not even last in our division, but people are acting like we're the worst team in the league.

Well said jloome, if a bit overly angry, haha. I do think the substitution of Plata played into our "demise" tonight, along with the tactical adjustment by Chicago, but the rest of your post is well taken.

- Scott

QSIM
05-15-2011, 02:00 AM
The only consistency in this club is my love for Stefan Frei. Im getting a kit. Black or Green?

Nicholas982
05-15-2011, 02:30 AM
I TOLD YOU GUYS!!!!!!

From pre-game thread:
Rocktml- "The boys arent winning tonight. Draw at best."

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The one-in-three chance that your prediction would be wrong didn't come to pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your outlandish and near-psychic prediction, which had a 66% chance of being true, was actually TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

YOU'RE THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN I TOUCH YOU PLEASE!?!?!?!?!?!?!111

Nicholas982
05-15-2011, 02:34 AM
2007
(Mo Johnston)
3-6-1 (10pts)


2008
(Johnston/Carver)
5-3-2 (17 pts)

2009
(Carver/Cummins)
3-3-4 (13 pts)

2010
(Preki)
5-4-1 (16pts)

2011
(Winter-Mariner)
2-3-5 (11pts)

FML:facepalm:

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 03:05 AM
The target number most people think will be needed to get into the playoffs is 40 points, being that there are 10 slots this year, 2 more than last year. With 23 league games left, we need 29 points to reach that target. That's 1.26 points per game. In all likelihood, that means a minimum of 6 wins with hopefully 11 draws and no more than 6 losses. Not all that unattainable but it definitely means there is no room for losses at home. With 10 games left at BMO Field, and with TFC's poor road record, unless TFC becomes road warriors all of a sudden, we need 6 wins minimum at home in those 10 games and 4 draws with an additional 7 draws on the road. Any losses at home will force us to start taking full points on the road.

In other words, we are still in it, but there is no more time to see "hopeful signs". 10th spot out of 18 teams is not an unreasonable expectation for this year. 8th spot would have been too ambitious but the league has gifted us this chance to squeeze in, I hope the team takes full advantage of it.

denime
05-15-2011, 07:11 AM
This is not a stereotype or an insult but when I was in Ecuador visiting a few years ago, I passed by a poor town in a rural area. Little kids were playing in a sandy, pebbly lot in sandals and sometimes no shoes at all, kicking an old ball (hopefully as it may not even have been a ball) playing a game of pick up soccer. No CSA, no OSA, no Academy, just kids having fun. And that's where I realized Canada, with all the money in the world and all the organization we could have (which we don't at the national level) cannot compete with these tiny poor countries until the system allows kids to play with joy.

Plata plays with joy and I love watching him. He's the only bright spot I see on this team and I have to credit the decision to draft him. I may get his jersey, even if he's just a loaned player.

P.S. On the topic of his conditioning, Plata's rights are owned by Quito, which means he plays in the Andes mountains in the thin air. And Ecuador's average temperature on the coast (where most of the league games are played) is high 80s F. Conditioning is not an issue for this kid. I am sure he'd outlast anyone on the team.

Roogsy ,this is true but the problem is with all those sick MF sex predators out there,kids can't play any outdoor sport today unless is organized and under adult/coach supervision.With supervision and instructions they can't feel free,and that's the problem we have in NA.

"Young players need freedom of expression to develop as creative players... they should be encouraged to try skills without fear of failure." Arsene WengerOur kids are encouraged to win 5$ trophies at age 7-17 where skill is secondary as long you win the game.Small kids like Plata or Messi would be cut from every REP team in this country because of their size,hockey mentality all the way.

menefreghista
05-15-2011, 07:44 AM
Our next game (which wasn't posted) will be against bottom feeder Sporting KC.

Our next MLS game is next Sunday against Colorado, on the road.

I wonder if KC can bounce back from playing all their games on the road so far (they don't play their first home game until June 9). If they start doing well at home it will make the playoff race much more interesting.


The target number most people think will be needed to get into the playoffs is 40 points, being that there are 10 slots this year, 2 more than last year. With 23 league games left, we need 29 points to reach that target. That's 1.26 points per game. In all likelihood, that means a minimum of 6 wins with hopefully 11 draws and no more than 6 losses. Not all that unattainable but it definitely means there is no room for losses at home. With 10 games left at BMO Field, and with TFC's poor road record, unless TFC becomes road warriors all of a sudden, we need 6 wins minimum at home in those 10 games and 4 draws with an additional 7 draws on the road. Any losses at home will force us to start taking full points on the road.

In other words, we are still in it, but there is no more time to see "hopeful signs". 10th spot out of 18 teams is not an unreasonable expectation for this year. 8th spot would have been too ambitious but the league has gifted us this chance to squeeze in, I hope the team takes full advantage of it.

I agree with you. Despite all the dropped home points and how poor we looks sometimes, the new playoff format is designed to keep much of the league in playoff contention for most of the season.

And really we aren't THAT bad (by MLS standards). With some better defending and a few more attacking options we could be a half decent MLS side.

Hugh Jazz
05-15-2011, 07:49 AM
The only consistency in this club is my love for Stefan Frei. Im getting a kit. Black or Green?

Yes, another strong game by Frei. Anyone else notice how a couple times last night the backline just stopped and assumed Frei would make the save even when there were rebounds and Fire players got there first? Lots of lazy plays last night.

menefreghista
05-15-2011, 07:55 AM
I don't think the Plata sub was the turning point. Chicago was already pinning us into our own end. The Santos goal was against the run of play and made us look like we were doing better than we were.

One thing I found weird is that all 3 of our subs were our front attacking 3.

I'm also starting to get the impression that Winter only likes to use about 15 of our players (not saying that as a knock on Winter, the other players might just suck to much to play). So we might have a bigger roster but we have very little depth.

Heathen
05-15-2011, 08:25 AM
Obviously I'm disappointed with losing a two goal lead but some perspective is required here, the first half and beginning of the second was the best we've played all year. The subbing of Plata affected our play because he is much more direct than Stevanovic so when the game became stretched as the Fire pressed we missed his heads down running at defenders. Overall despite the dropped points I definitely saw more good than bad out of this game, specifically Tchani was excellent imho absolute 180 degrees compared to the Dallas game.

gomesv
05-15-2011, 08:50 AM
^ Winter said Plata was tired, and he generally doesn't want to overuse a 19-year old. Considering Stevanovich's salary and """""pedigree"""" you would really think he would be able to deliver, and be a decent replacement of Plata, especially vs. some tired defenders. But no, still likes to dribble when 4 Chicago players are on him, and didn't finish the 1v1 vs Conway.


I've said it before, Stevanovich hasn't done a thing to earn 5 seconds of playing time on this team, the fact that Winter keeps trotting him out there must be a moral killer for the other players, bringing him in for Plata was in my opinion the game killer mistake.................get rid of this single minded player....:facepalm::facepalm:

CretanBull
05-15-2011, 08:52 AM
Our kids are encouraged to win 5$ trophies at age 7-17 where skill is secondary as long you win the game.Small kids like Plata or Messi would be cut from every REP team in this country because of their size,hockey mentality all the way.

Things are slowly changing because of the more diverse immigrant influence, but when soccer took hold in this country is was basically old school British ideas being taught to hockey people. That meant big, strong CBs, mid-field destroyers and big, strong strikers. There was some variety in the fulll-backs and wide players, but it almost didn't matter because the game was played up and down through the middle - it was 4-4-2 and always 4-4-2.

The other main influence here was the Italian style of game, which stressed defensive minded negative football.I remember being taught at 11 years old how to frustrate the other team and kill off a game. My team was incredibly successfull, but there wasn't much in the way of creative play - we were taught how to win games, not how to express our creativity.

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 09:04 AM
This season is lost. The second half has TFC playing most of their important games on the road, against superior opposition. Giving away these easy points to mediocre clubs at home while sporting a dismal away record spells disaster for this team, this year. This is the managers fault. Like many of you, I was at the game. After their hard fought 2-0 lead, a clever manager would have subbed his fading defenders. Cann and even dumbass Gargan played reasonably well in the first half, but they faded quickly by the 50 th minute: that was the time for Winter to put in attakora or Yoursssy.....fresh legs works wonders in a 2 nil lead at home...but alas, this is Toronto, and we have Winter....We all have a right to our opinions, mine is that Winter is a stupid strategist and tactician, and his record of achievement here supports this.

Ageroo
05-15-2011, 09:11 AM
This season is lost. The second half has TFC playing most of their important games on the road, against superior opposition. Giving away these easy points to mediocre clubs at home while sporting a dismal away record spells disaster for this team, this year. This is the managers fault. Like many of you, I was at the game. After their hard fought 2-0 lead, a clever manager would have subbed his fading defenders. Cann and even dumbass Gargan played reasonably well in the first half, but they faded quickly by the 50 th minute: that was the time for Winter to put in attakora or Yoursssy.....fresh legs works wonders in a 2 nil lead at home...but alas, this is Toronto, and we have Winter....We all have a right to our opinions, mine is that Winter is a stupid strategist and tactician, and his record of achievement here supports this.

Neither were on the bench last night.....and as far as i know Gargan got the start because Yourass was injured and Borman was in South Africa attending to family matters...so it was very slim pickings to sub Gargan.

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 09:15 AM
Neither were on the bench last night.....and as far as i know Gargan got the start because Yourass was injured and Borman was in South Africa attending to family matters...so it was very slim pickings to sub Gargan.
Neither were on the bench? This speaks volumes about Winter the saviour. So, Attakora is so useless that he is not good enough to sub even when the normal subs are injured? Based on Winters comments, Attakora is simply not good enough, not good enough to be a back up sub even. He is an idiot.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 09:18 AM
And really we aren't THAT bad (by MLS standards). With some better defending and a few more attacking options we could be a half decent MLS side.

This is true of every MLS team, the difference between last place and the middle of the table is always one or two players. Getting past the middle is more difficult but that never seems to be the goal here, just squeaking into the playoffs by a single point is always sold to us as some huge success.

The disappointment this season is that everyone knew the team was digging its way out of a hole, we've heard thousands of times how the new management has to clean up the mess of the old management - so people expected some big move, some kind of statement to show they were different and were going to really turn things around and we haven't seen that.

Maybe it's too soon, but there's certainly no sense of urgency here. For some reason this team seems to think the rest of the teams in the league will just stand still until they catch up.

Ageroo
05-15-2011, 09:18 AM
Neither were on the bench? This speaks volumes about Winter the saviour.

Explain to me how this speaks volumes? Ok maybe regarding Attakora because he seems to be in the doghouse, but Yourass was injured....are you suggesting have him field and injured player....explain your logic please to back up your statement. I am neither a fan or a hater of Winter, but I am just curious to hear why this speaks volumes......

ensco
05-15-2011, 09:22 AM
A little perspective; we're not even last in our division, but people are acting like we're the worst team in the league.

Hang on: I'd say the "people" have it about right.

When you adjust for games played, home games played, and strength of schedule, we're clearly in the bottom 3 in the league. In that group of 3 are us, an expansion team (Vancouver) and a team (KC) that has yet to play a home game.

I see the hopeful talk about the playoffs above, but the standings are deceptive, there's really nothing at all to support the idea that we'll be in the mix later, based on where we are now.

Then you look at where Philadelphia, Seattle, SJ and Portland are...

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 09:28 AM
Simple deductive reasoning. Winter says Attakora is not playing because he is not practicing well (he has not been in a game for ages, so this we must assume/infer). Two regular sub defenders cannot play. Attakora still remains off the bench. So, deductive reasoning: Attakora is so far down the line he may as well go back to school and take up journalism for a living or something like baking. In my view, a manager with brains would at the very minimum, put all available players on the bench, even if he is a player that he cannot stand for some fucking reason. I distinctly recall reading hundreds of posts in this forum last season where Attakora was extolled as the best young defender in mls.....now, he is a bum.......Cannot learn the system.....what system. Winter has no system. I still see the defenders shank the ball up the pitch whenever they are in trouble....at least Attakora had excellent tackling ability, better than Cann, Gargolye and JDG for that matter...but alas, Winter is our saviour, we have to believe in him. Perhaps Winter should take in a few mls games himself, he could watch those mighty Portland and Philly teams that have been around so long, and so him how it is done in north america.

ilikemusic
05-15-2011, 09:30 AM
Hang on: I'd say the "people" have it about right.

When you adjust for games played, home games played, and strength of schedule, we're clearly in the bottom 3 in the league. In that group of 3 are us, an expansion team (Vancouver) and a team (KC) that has yet to play a home game.

I see the hopeful talk about the playoffs above, but the standings are deceptive, there's really nothing at all to support the idea that we'll be in the mix later, based on where we are now.


And this is without even considering the fact that TFC historically only gets worse as the season drags on. The annual nosedive (which this season wont even be so much a nosedive as it would just be continued ineptitude) usually sets in around the time of the first friendly.

Gazza
05-15-2011, 09:31 AM
The Plata sub was not only a mistake tactically, it seemed to drain the excitement out of the building as well. Like Frei said, it was around that time that the team seemed to think that the rest of the game was a formality. Especially Stevanovic, who was subbed on for Plata. I don't like what i see from him, and like what someone said before, he seems to be just a passenger out there. All flare and no substance. It doesn't matter if there is anyone on him or what part of the pitch he's in, he seems to need to do two unnecessary step-overs before advancing.

Heathen
05-15-2011, 09:34 AM
Have to say watching the Seattle - Portland game last night depressed me, the Timbers really gave Seattle a game compared to the piss poor effort we put in there. I know it was a big big game for them but another expansion team playing better more entertaining football than we ever have.

TFC14
05-15-2011, 09:34 AM
Hang on: I'd say the "people" have it about right.

When you adjust for games played, home games played, and strength of schedule, we're clearly in the bottom 3 in the league. In that group of 3 are us, an expansion team (Vancouver) and a team (KC) that has yet to play a home game.

I see the hopeful talk about the playoffs above, but the standings are deceptive, there's really nothing at all to support the idea that we'll be in the mix later, based on where we are now.

Then you look at where Philadelphia, Seattle, SJ and Portland are...
I think the most disappointing thing is that we haven't been winning our home games. We have already played 7 league games at home and we only have 11 points...we have 2 league road games coming up this month still and 3 of 6 away in June. The month of July is completely away but 1 game. Given the trend not only from TFC in the past but with this league, its very difficult to win on the road in the MLS. I'm scared to see our spot in the table come August to be honest

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 09:41 AM
The Plata sub was not only a mistake tactically, it seemed to drain the excitement out of the building as well. Like Frei said, it was around that time that the team seemed to think that the rest of the game was a formality. Especially Stevanovic, who was subbed on for Plata. I don't like what i see from him, and like what someone said before, he seems to be just a passenger out there. All flare and no substance. It doesn't matter if there is anyone on him or what part of the pitch he's in, he seems to need to do two unnecessary step-overs before advancing.
In hockey terms, Stevanovic runs with his head down, never sees the play, only looking at the puck. He has tons of talent, and almost scored twice last night, but there are so many times when he just runs into defenders only to lose the ball and ruin any build up. But that was not the problem last night. When Chicago changed their formation Winter did nothing to counter it, and was left hanging without a defender on the bench who could sub for Cann and Gargan who were dying out there. Winters fault we tied, he can blame nobody else.

TFC14
05-15-2011, 09:46 AM
Pts Gp W L T

11 11 2 4 5

...thats pretty pathetic when you have had 7 home games, whats worse....

Goals for: 11
Goals against: 17

-6 goal differential ...and only 11 goals in 11 games...thats attacking football alright, total shit

And this shows the complete inconsistency of the team:

Last 5 Game Results

T-L-W-L-T

If i think back to grade 5 math to complete this pattern were going to have many more losses and ties than wins.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 09:57 AM
So, is this season looking like it's the one step back in order to take two steps forward?

prizby
05-15-2011, 09:58 AM
defence was immaculate in the first half...i thought it was best i had seen all season...just wasn't the same in the 2nd

sashavukelich
05-15-2011, 10:01 AM
Might be going out on a limb but I don't think we will shit the bed late in the season this year. These stats don't take that into account.

i tend to agree, and what with our available cap space? I think we'll make a move when the Euro Window opens and start to push on a bit.

I wish i knew (we knew), where they were scouting. :) I'm sure Mariner has been a busy busy boy.

TFC14
05-15-2011, 10:02 AM
So, is this season looking like it's the one step back in order to take two steps forward?
call me a pessimist but I fail to see how we will take two steps forward. you can't expect Frei to stay around much longer Eckersleyand Stevanovic are loaned players. This shit thats going on with Attakora doesn't make me believe he'll be around much longer. I fail to see a young core of players to go into the future with, Santos, DeGuzman, Cann, Gordon aren't getting any younger all near 30. were missing a lot of key roles already, with a few exits next year I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon

backbeat
05-15-2011, 10:02 AM
So, is this season looking like it's the one step back in order to take two steps forward?

that's what i always expected this year - clear out as much as they can - implement a style/culture - begin to build the team with options for each position - expand the academy.

never had too much hope for the play-offs this year, rather a foundation that will, in a couple of years, produce a consistent top-level MLS team year after year - I still believe that's where we're headed with Winter and gang...

none the less, it was frustrating to watch the win fizzle away....

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 10:03 AM
I think the most disappointing thing is that we haven't been winning our home games. We have already played 7 league games at home and we only have 11 points...we have 2 league road games coming up this month still and 3 of 6 away in June. The month of July is completely away but 1 game. Given the trend not only from TFC in the past but with this league, its very difficult to win on the road in the MLS. I'm scared to see our spot in the table come August to be honest


I don't disagree, however, I am counting on two things. 1) We won't have our annual summer swoon. And 2) reinforcements in the summer in the way of a DP.

If we're still in it by the time they bring someone in, we still have a shot. But there are no more mulligans. Last night's game was their final "practice". They have to be spot on and consistent the rest of the season. And honestly, we can't lose more than 7-8 games or we have to start winning a whole lot more than we're drawing.

backbeat
05-15-2011, 10:05 AM
call me a pessimist but I fail to see how we will take two steps forward. you can't expect Frei to stay around much longer Eckersleyand Stevanovic are loaned players. This shit thats going on with Attakora doesn't make me believe he'll be around much longer. I fail to see a young core of players to go into the future with, Santos, DeGuzman, Cann, Gordon aren't getting any younger all near 30. were missing a lot of key roles already, with a few exits next year I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon

actually this team looked pretty good in the first half and part of the 2nd, then fell apart. also the last game they showed advancement - i do see them as a marked improvement since game one and i think this team will get stronger in the 2nd half of the season unlike TFC teams of the past...in my mind they're headed in the right direction

TFC14
05-15-2011, 10:07 AM
I don't disagree, however, I am counting on two things. 1) We won't have our annual summer swoon. And 2) reinforcements in the summer in the way of a DP.

If we're still in it by the time they bring someone in, we still have a shot. But there are no more mulligans. Last night's game was their final "practice". They have to be spot on and consistent the rest of the season. And honestly, we can't lose more than 7-8 games or we have to start winning a whole lot more than we're drawing.
i guess being pessimistic again i have my doubts that they can actually attract an impact DP that will be able to make a difference with this team. were not going to get a beckham, henry or marquez.

TFC14
05-15-2011, 10:11 AM
actually this team looked pretty good in the first half and part of the 2nd, then fell apart. also the last game they showed advancement - i do see them as a marked improvement since game one and i think this team will get stronger in the 2nd half of the season unlike TFC teams of the past...in my mind they're headed in the right direction
the team is too inconsistent, you have to play a full 90 to win...were halfway through may when do we quit giving them excuses and start expecting a complete 90 min performance? Playing one good half gets you exactly what we have been getting, loss or a tie at best. I think that after 11 league games, 2 kick abouts with edmonton, and an entire pre season with the majority core players we should be expecting more than half of a games worth of effort. We have achieved 11 of a possible 33 points, we've played 8/11 at home...you can't make excuses for that. they play what 34/36 games this season we have already played almost 1/3rd of our games, there needs to be more urgency and less babying this team with excuses

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2011, 10:14 AM
I just hope last night's second half letdown doesn't deflate the team's morale heading into Vancouver on Wednesday. I watched the Vancouver match last night, and most of their big guns were rested in preparation for the NCC Final. The boys are going to have their work cut out for them on the west coast.

gomesv
05-15-2011, 10:15 AM
The Plata sub was not only a mistake tactically, it seemed to drain the excitement out of the building as well. Like Frei said, it was around that time that the team seemed to think that the rest of the game was a formality. Especially Stevanovic, who was subbed on for Plata. I don't like what i see from him, and like what someone said before, he seems to be just a passenger out there. All flare and no substance. It doesn't matter if there is anyone on him or what part of the pitch he's in, he seems to need to do two unnecessary step-overs before advancing.


Just watching him before games during warm ups, while the rest of the team is focused, Stevanovich is trying to show us how skilled he is with his foot work, and spins on the ball, sure lots of skill but no substance on the field, even those guys outside the stadium doing tricks with the soccer ball have skill...............

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 10:19 AM
I just hope last night's second half letdown doesn't deflate the team's morale heading into Vancouver on Wednesday. I watched the Vancouver match last night, and most of their big guns were rested in preparation for the NCC Final. The boys are going to have their work cut out for them on the west coast.

We always make it sound like TFC is in complete control and it was their 'letdown' and not adjustments made by the other team. Let's hope Vancouver haven't scouted TFC and found their weaknesses...

Yohan
05-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Very disappointed about last night's game but I saw a lot of positives.

-best 1st half of footy this season so far. lots of hustle, passing was accurate. wing play was by far most dangerous.
-JDG/Tchani combo works in the middle
-Gargan had a decent game, except for sucking at 1v1 for 2nd goal. even his passes were spot on for most part
-Frei is a god
-Peterson's set pieces were better than normal
-Plata is right now the most dangerous TFC attacker. that kid has some good footy smarts. makes rights decision most of the times and just so confident in himself
-Plata has some sort of telepathic connection with Maicon. they hook each other up pretty nicely
-Santos is a poacher striker. he'll disappear for long stretches of the game, but he can still pop up from nowhere to get involved. no more of this AM nonsense plz
-Eck is #1 RB.
-Soolsma had his best TFC outing. Yes, he's slow, but he's got skills and smarts to still be effective on the wings.

What plagues TFC right now is lack of confidence and overall slackness in defensive end. I'm not sure how Winter is going to fix this, but defending is a team responsibility.

First half, I saw what Winter wanted this team to play like, and it was just as dangerous as any MLS team in attack. Whether Winter can get the lads to play that dangerously consistently, but I'm drinking the kool aid.

PS: Tchani exposed the flaws of NCAA system. That lad has so much raw talent but his passing and first touch... ugh. if he can put together his passing and first touch, he'll be next Shalrie Joseph

Stevanovic is turning into another Laurent Robert really soon...

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 10:34 AM
We always make it sound like TFC is in complete control and it was their 'letdown' and not adjustments made by the other team. Let's hope Vancouver haven't scouted TFC and found their weaknesses...
Finding our weaknesses is easy. All you have to do as a manager is to assess what Winter is doing, and then do the exact opposite.

jloome
05-15-2011, 10:37 AM
Well said jloome, if a bit overly angry, haha. I do think the substitution of Plata played into our "demise" tonight, along with the tactical adjustment by Chicago, but the rest of your post is well taken.

- Scott

Yeah, sorry man. Just the first few pages seemed purely malicious, like people waiting to complain. There are more productive things in life.

I'm not going to lie an say Aron Winter has filled me with staggering confidence, but I've enjoyed the style of play so far. I'd like to see it when he's filled a couple more spots with players not left over from the last regime.

We stopped playing at 2-0, our opponents adjusted and came back. Footie story old as time.

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2011, 10:40 AM
Yeah, sorry man. Just the first few pages seemed purely malicious, like people waiting to complain. There are more productive things in life.

I'm not going to lie an say Aron Winter has filled me with staggering confidence, but I've enjoyed the style of play so far. I'd like to see it when he's filled a couple more spots with players not left over from the last regime.

We stopped playing at 2-0, our opponents adjusted and came back. Footie story old as time.

Agreed.

Unfortunately, TFC hasn't had much practice playing with the lead this season. Hopefully, they will learn to play a full 90 minutes and adjust tactically as the season progresses.

jloome
05-15-2011, 10:41 AM
Neither were on the bench? This speaks volumes about Winter the saviour. So, Attakora is so useless that he is not good enough to sub even when the normal subs are injured? Based on Winters comments, Attakora is simply not good enough, not good enough to be a back up sub even. He is an idiot.

Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 10:45 AM
Agreed.

Unfortunately, TFC hasn't had much practice playing with the lead this season. Hopefully, they will learn to play a full 90 minutes and adjust tactically as the season progresses.

Playng a full 90 minutes has been a problem for years. I guess that's partt of the "culture" that needs to be changed here. Is it a matter of bringing in different players with a different attitude or is there something more the team could be doing?

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 10:50 AM
Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.
Evidently, attending every game, buying season tickets, soaked too the bone, witnessing the revolving door policy which turns our favorite and best players into ghosts, does not weigh evenly with your arm chair platitudes. Are you going to slap your knee in delight when Attakora is traded for the next Gargon? Read my post, it mirrors your earlier comments, if you didn't notice. I was at the game, you were not.

jloome
05-15-2011, 10:52 AM
There's really nothing at all to support the idea that we'll be in the mix later, based on where we are now.

Basing how we'll play for the final two-thirds of the season on the first third is a false equivalency. No team plays consistently well or poorly all season in MLS due to roster parity. It's entirely possible we improve merely because we have fewer injuries the rest of the way that two or three teams above us.

You might as well look at the Portland win and say "that's how we'll play the rest of the year."

In terms of wins and losses, we're two games under .500. People are overreacting. Six week ago, almost everyone here was willing to write off this year and accept this kind of outcome. Go back and check. When it actually happens, they all lose their minds.

It's feeble. Anyone who publicly said "I don't expect us to win this year" and is now howling for Winter's head needs to fall back on logic for a minute and calm down.

We're not going to win squat this year, and we'd already mostly accepted that. People just have short memories. I mean, our best striker is probably Alan Gordon, the ultimate MLS journeyman. Our best winger is a 5'1 loan product from Quito.

With our roster, I'd say getting points out of seven of our opening eleven games isn't really that awful - even though ties eventually kill you in this league.

jloome
05-15-2011, 10:53 AM
I was at the game, you were not.

You're aware that this logically means absolutely nothing, right?

EDIT: And it most certainly does not MIRROR my comments. I questioned his view of Attakora and whether he has judgment. I didn't call him an IDIOT.

mightydrm
05-15-2011, 10:55 AM
So many miserable buggers on this thread. What the hell is wrong with you? Great first half for the second game in a row, attractive dominant soccer. Best in five seasons in my opinion. Yes, they blew it and maybe Winter needed to adjust tactics. But all this revisionist history, give me a break. MLSE did not cause Carver to quit; the abysmal refs did. MLSE can be blamed for not firing Mo after the New York debacle, and for last years price hike, but move on folks. It was bloody great last night for 60 minutes and we can expect more of that.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 10:59 AM
So many miserable buggers on this thread. What the hell is wrong with you? Great first half for the second game in a row, attractive dominant soccer. Best in five seasons in my opinion. Yes, they blew it and maybe Winter needed to adjust tactics. But all this revisionist history, give me a break. MLSE did not cause Carver to quit; the abysmal refs did. MLSE can be blamed for not firing Mo after the New York debacle, and for last years price hike, but move on folks. It was bloody great last night for 60 minutes and we can expect more of that.

Well, you ask and answer your own question - the best play in five seasons and they still can't win a home game. If that doesn't get people upset then we really deserve a last place team.

How can we expect to get past any team ahead of us in the standings if we're satisfied with a good half?

We all understand rebuilding but we also know this league and have seen so many other teams pass us by.

jloome
05-15-2011, 11:01 AM
We all understand rebuilding but ....

Nope. No "but". The vast majority agreed on here six weeks ago that this is exactly what we'd see and Winter had too little to work with to make a competitive go of it this year.

Now that the passion of the actual game is involved, that logic goes out the window. It's passion, but passion isn't always productive or accurately directed.

ExiledRed
05-15-2011, 11:04 AM
We're not going to win squat this year, and we'd already mostly accepted that. People just have short memories. .

Pardon me, but there is a contingency on this board that has always felt such a low expectation is neither acceptable or necessary, and its not an insignificant minority of uneducated noobs either.

Todays division of opinion is no different than last weeks, or the week priors. Do you have some kind of literary phrase that represents your assessment? , like 'environment of falsehood' or 'illusory foundation' or something?

ensco
05-15-2011, 11:04 AM
This isn't above some sort of inability to move on, or being miserable....c'mon, we're a bad team. There's no point pretending otherwise. So we had a good first half. Big deal. We stunk the joint out in the second half. Guess what? We should have lost that game, not tied it.

I'd wager that a large number of the most upset people here are SSHs, who have paid thousands, in some case many thousands, over five years, to underwrite this.

We've been complete patsies, it's the supporters who just follow on TV, or buy tickets for less than cost when they feel like it, that are in the right place.

Much as we SSHs all enjoy the games, we SSHs have been fools, and we know it.

(cue all the people, who are now going to me me I'm not a true supporter...)

bgnewf
05-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Pain In The Rain - TFC v Chicago Video Blog

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/05/pain-in-the-rain-tfc-v-chicago-video-blog/

Pain in the rain indeed. After a bright start, and a goal plus an assist from emerging TFC star Joao Plata, the Reds wilted considerably in the wet weather, and they let Chicago back into the game in the second half on what looked to me as very tired legs... It took another miracle save from Stefan Frei late to save the single point in the end.

In this video blog I take a quick look back at the match in detail and I take a look ahead at TFC's critical trip to Vancouver on Wednesday for the first leg of the Voyageurs Cup Final.

Your comments are always welcome and appreciated

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Well, you ask and answer your own question - the best play in five seasons and they still can't win a home game. If that doesn't get people upset then we really deserve a last place team.

How can we expect to get past any team ahead of us in the standings if we're satisfied with a good half?

We all understand rebuilding but we also know this league and have seen so many other teams pass us by.

Beach, I don't think anyone is satisfied with last night's result. Some people are merely encouraged that the club has shown glimpses of grasping the system that Winter is trying to implement over the last few games. It stands to reason that as the players get more acclimated, last night's exceptional first half might become the norm as opposed to the exception.

I think we all realized that TFC was going to have a difficult start to the season, but there have been signs as of late that the club has the potential to become more competitive and consistent throughout the rest of the season. Time will tell.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Nope. No "but". The vast majority agreed on here six weeks ago that this is exactly what we'd see and Winter had too little to work with to make a competitive go of it this year.

Now that the passion of the actual game is involved, that logic goes out the window. It's passion, but passion isn't always productive or accurately directed.

No, we need to see more signs, even this early. If the team doesn't have the skill then we need to see extra effort. We've actually seen good halfs from TFC in every season. This year doesn't look any different than any other.

Chicago doesn't have much more skill than TFC but they came into our house and overcame being two goals down. And they're unlikely to make the playoffs this year, either, so they're getting better, too.

Yes, sure, TFC is going to get better but so is every other team in the league. What, specifically, have we seen so far that shows us this team is improving faster than the teams we have to pass are improving?

Cashcleaner
05-15-2011, 11:26 AM
My observations after 90 minutes standing LEGITIMATELY in 112 for the first time:

- Frei made the difference between a 2-2 draw and a 3-2 loss. Anyone who continues to say this guy is overrated needs to reassess their knowledge of this team and player dynamics. Excellent save on Paladini's attempt in the 83rd minute. It wasn't luck. It wasn't "an easy save that any other keeper would do".

- Plata has made a believer outta me. I'll be honest, I wasn't all that convinced with him when we picked him up but now I gotta admit, he has more than earned his place here in Toronto. Why he was subbed out when he looked like a threat almost 100% of the time on the pitch is beyond me. Roogsy is bang-on with his assessment. Plata is from Quito - a city standing 2800 metres above seas level and has played in temperatures and weather more extreme than we typically get. I assure everyone that he can handle a breezy rainy night in Toronto.

- I'm done with Dan Gargan. Please. No more. I just can't take it. He's not "Andy Welsh" bad, it's just that while much of the club continues to improve at a certain pace, he seems to be lagging behind.

- I'm somehow not all that disappointed as I think I should be. I dunno. Again, it was the first time in my new seat in 112 (thanks again, Boris!) and the drum was right fucking next to me, so my perception is a little skewed. We seem to be playing a lot more cohesively, and so even though one could argue that we lost 2 points tonight (and I would agree) we're actually starting to resemble a team that plays the sport of association football at a professional level.

- By the way, that last remark doesn't apply to our defence.

Other than that I don't know what to say. I had a great time in my new seat and even without the drum for the first half of the game, I thought we were pretty loud in 112. Again, it always seems like we're the loudest in the worst weather - even if the players don't appreciate the slippery conditions.

mightydrm
05-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Maybe I have different expectations, but I am a SSH and have been since day one. Everything was great, despite losing, until the debacle in New York. Last year was a disaster - great first half and Cruz Azul then a collapse and the MLSE price hike. But I am prepared to get over that and actually enjoy my soccer. Half the people on the thread seem to take no pleasure in it at all. I've got no time for them - like the guy who complained that Yourassowsky wasn't brought in for Gargan when he was't available due to injury - just looking for something to complain about. If we make the playoffs he'll bitch and moan about the price of tickets, or something.

denime
05-15-2011, 11:31 AM
^^ Agree Cash 111-113 was rocking last night,it was great to see whole 112-113 bounce

denime
05-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Maybe I have different expectations, but I am a SSH and have been since day one. Everything was great, despite losing, until the debacle in New York. Last year was a disaster - great first half and Cruz Azul then a collapse and the MLSE price hike. But I am prepared to get over that and actually enjoy my soccer. Half the people on the thread seem to take no pleasure in it at all. I've got no time for them - like the guy who complained that Yourassowsky wasn't brought in for Gargan when he was't available due to injury - just looking for something to complain about. If we make the playoffs he'll bitch and moan about the price of tickets, or something.

I was told that lack of Sexual activities makes people complain all the time.

more of :hump: makes people :fluffy:

Pachuco
05-15-2011, 11:38 AM
I hate to say it, but this game came down to tactics and personel management. Chalk this up as 2 points lost by Winter. I know people will defend him to no end but I don't care. He can personally be blamed for dropping those points. He got confident, took out our spark plug and we all watched the engine die after that. Mo had alot less to work with in year 1 and somehow we look like the first year TFC team.

ExiledRed
05-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Maybe I have different expectations, but I am a SSH and have been since day one. Everything was great, despite losing, until the debacle in New York. Last year was a disaster - great first half and Cruz Azul then a collapse and the MLSE price hike. But I am prepared to get over that and actually enjoy my soccer. Half the people on the thread seem to take no pleasure in it at all. I've got no time for them - like the guy who complained that Yourassowsky wasn't brought in for Gargan when he was't available due to injury - just looking for something to complain about. If we make the playoffs he'll bitch and moan about the price of tickets, or something.

Yeah we have to scrape the barrell to find things to complain about these days.

Yohan
05-15-2011, 11:46 AM
Other than that I don't know what to say. I had a great time in my new seat and even without the drum for the first half of the game, I thought we were pretty loud in 112. Again, it always seems like we're the loudest in the worst weather - even if the players don't appreciate the slippery conditions.
Heard the Bunker loud and clear from top of 127. just drowned out NEE a lot of times

Chicago supporters were in full voice for most of the game too. props to them

Pachuco
05-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Does anyone know what's happened to NEE? are they protesting or something? I swear that's like the 3rd game in a row where no noise comes out of that corner. For a while there they were louder then 112 and all of a sudden I don't hear a peep out of them.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 11:52 AM
Beach, I don't think anyone is satisfied with last night's result. Some people are merely encouraged that the club has shown glimpses of grasping the system that Winter is trying to implement over the last few games. It stands to reason that as the players get more acclimated, last night's exceptional first half might become the norm as opposed to the exception.

I think we all realized that TFC was going to have a difficult start to the season, but there have been signs as of late that the club has the potential to become more competitive and consistent throughout the rest of the season. Time will tell.


Sure, TFC is going to get better, more consistent, more competitive. So is every other team in the league. Which teams, specifically, do we think TFC is going to pass by this year or next year?

Everyone accepts that, once again, TFC got a late start to the season, didn't have management in place for the full off-season and started further behind every other team in the league (even the expansion teams). So, sure, this year will be another "learning experience," and we don't expect to compete this year but we do seem to think that the natural thing will be that next year the team will be better and all I'm saying is EVERY team feels that way, every team is trying to get more consistent and more competitive and there's really no reason to think TFC will do any better at it than any other team. We haven't really seen any signs yet that TFC can "punch above its weight" which is what's needed to be at the top of a salary cap league.

We're getting exactly what anyone would expect out of these players, no better and no worse.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 12:15 PM
I was told that lack of Sexual activities makes people complain all the time.

more of :hump: makes people :fluffy:


Well then we should be the happiest people on the planet because TFC has been screwing us continuously for 5...er "V" rather...years.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 12:17 PM
So many miserable buggers on this thread. What the hell is wrong with you?

I know crazy huh? You'd think we would have dropped points at home against one of the worst teams in the league or seomthing.

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Maybe I have different expectations, but I am a SSH and have been since day one. Everything was great, despite losing, until the debacle in New York. Last year was a disaster - great first half and Cruz Azul then a collapse and the MLSE price hike. But I am prepared to get over that and actually enjoy my soccer. Half the people on the thread seem to take no pleasure in it at all. I've got no time for them - like the guy who complained that Yourassowsky wasn't brought in for Gargan when he was't available due to injury - just looking for something to complain about. If we make the playoffs he'll bitch and moan about the price of tickets, or something.
1. I go to the game, I don't look at the line up, sorry, did not know Yourassowsy was injured. My fault I suppose. But did the same analysis of that lineup not make you wonder why Attakora was not in his place? that is the point I made that you missed. And, if all i wanted to do was complain, why would I waste a saturday night in the rain, and go to these games at all? Take a look at the average fan at BMO, and you will see what I look like: tired, bored, confused, anxious, and wondering why years of this has not led me to leave and seek other pastures? Because I like soccer, because I understand soccer, and have higher expectations than some here seem to have. I look for more than a place to simply show up and drink beer. And I have a great memory. I remember how you guys felt whenever Attakora, or DeRo or Barrett, or Cronin had a great game, and how we were all wondering how the new manager would step in to improve the team, enough to make it into a contender. Well, I am still waiting, and if this does not happen soon, the average BMO fan will, like me, leave in droves and like the Blue Jays, wonder what happened here? Remember how crappy TFC was in year one, and how loud the place was, now we are crappy, and the only people making noise are the supporters like yourselves. So, rather than bemoan the criticism of an average fan, you may want to take notice, cause things could get a lot worse at BMO before they get better. Just saying, sorry for the rant. Go team go.

Alonso
05-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Any of you guys still "believe" ...?


Yup. This guy.


The team looks really good at moments and really bad at others. The thing is they are playing better football when they're really good then I have ever seen out of this team.

I think time (a year or two with eachother) and a few more pieces will iron out a lot of the bad stuff.

Haven't read any of the thread yet, so excuse me if this has been beaten to death already, but the biggest mistake of the night was subbing out Plata and watching all our offensive pressure evaporate and keeping the Chicago attack honest.

From there on, we were on our heels.

Alonso
05-15-2011, 12:31 PM
Am I ever glad I didn't renew my season tickets this year.



Haha.

You did miss a great live game yesterday though.

There's a lot of highs and lows but thats just the way life goes. It WAS entertaining for sure.

Don't blame you for bailing though as the ticket prices might convince me to do the same for next year too. Especially when I can get them when ever I want anyway.

Alonso
05-15-2011, 12:33 PM
Perhaps Winter thought the team could hang on without him, and wanted to make sure Plata was as fresh as possible for the next contest, instead of having him out there playing what he thought were unnecessary minutes.

I understand why the change was made - it just didn't work in our favour at all. The team lost it's offensive spark, and went into "defensive hang on for dear life" mode - something TFC fans are familiar with.

- Scott


Yeah good point, I guess I just have the privledge of hindsight eh? :D

It's still Winters fault though.... :D

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 12:33 PM
Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.


Don't bother. The VAST majority of people who post know very little about actually playing the game, or the way the game can and should look.

I don't care if I sound like a snob.

There are several posters on this board who know their shit. I may not agree with them but that's not the point.

It's a waste of time to try and talk tactics or man marking with a poster like Chevy.

BTW..your previous post (rant..lol) was bang on in my opinion. :)

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Don't bother. The VAST majority of people who post know very little about actually playing the game, or the way the game can and should look.

I don't care if I sound like a snob.

There are several posters on this board who know their shit. I may not agree with them but that's not the point.

It's a waste of time to try and talk tactics or man marking with a poster like Chevy.

BTW..your previous post (rant..lol) was bang on in my opinion. :)
Rather than be Jloome's minion, why not answer the simple question I pose and none of you can answer. Why didn't Winter have Attakora on the bench on a night when two of his subs were away? The hard work and resulting lead were wasted when in the second half Cann and Gargan and Eckersley were exhausted, and needed to be subbed. But alas, I am not enough of a snob to recognize this glaring error

Alonso
05-15-2011, 12:55 PM
^Which goal???

First Chicago goal was a free kick off of a shit call by the referee, Frei had no chance, after that TFC started playing behind the ball, no attack, result was Chicago pressed for another goal, which Frei got a hand to it but a slidin Chicago player directed it in, It wasn't even on Gargan's side of the pitch!!! One of the finest 60 minutes TFC have ever played, creative and using the whole field. I'll take the draw for actually seeing good football for an hour. My opinion, that's all


I think your bang on Derko. Are you still in 110 by the way? I moved over to 107.

(Oh and changed my board name for ForzaMexico to my first name Alonso, just in case you didn't notice and are wondering who the hell this is... LOL)

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 01:03 PM
Rather than be Jloome's minion, why not answer the simple question I pose and none of you can answer. Why didn't Winter have Attakora on the bench on a night when two of his subs were away? The hard work and resulting lead were wasted when in the second half Cann and Gargan and Eckersley were exhausted, and needed to be subbed. But alas, I am not enough of a snob to recognize this glaring error


Simple...because Winter knows much less about how he wants his squad shaped and the type of football he wants to play than you do.

You know better.

Do you truly think that Winter doesn't know what he's doing?

I don't get this place sometimes.

If we had asked anyone here how TFC looked at the end of the 1st half I would imagine that most people would be happy. Yes...they shit the bed and gave away two points.

It sucks but it happens. It's part of learning how to win. This team has nothing to do with the teams from seasons 1 through 4. Its a team that is working on doing things differently than they've ever done before.

You wanna chalk up the loss of composure to one susbstitution made or not made? That's fucking ridiculous.

What if he had subbed in Nana for any of the players you mentioned and we gave up another goal? It just as easily could have happened....but that's not the fucking point.

Was it a tactical error on Winters part? Maybe. Was it player fatigue? Maybe. Was it Chicago waking up and playing better? Maybe. Was it a poor performance by the subs that we did make? Maybe.

The truth is...it was likely some combination of all of that...and more.

I don't know what else to say. If people don't watch that first half and see that this team is making progress than I guess I'll just have to disagree with them.

There's a plan
It's being implemented.
When it is, we should be good.

Until then there's nothing to do but watch the games and argue in between. :D

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 01:06 PM
Rather than be Jloome's minion, why not answer the simple question I pose and none of you can answer. Why didn't Winter have Attakora on the bench on a night when two of his subs were away? The hard work and resulting lead were wasted when in the second half Cann and Gargan and Eckersley were exhausted, and needed to be subbed. But alas, I am not enough of a snob to recognize this glaring error


Shit..I forgot to directly answer your question.

He's not happy with Attakora. Still has confidence in him but is not satisfied with him right now. Said it in his interview.

Why are you (and others) still asking this question?

Do you think you can better assess talent than Aron Winter?

Do you know how Attakora has been playing and training in recent days/weeks?

No....of course not. All you know is that Gargan sucks so the solution is to put in another player, any player. No matter the outcome, because of course...you know exactly what would have happened had Attakora played right?

Gimme a break.

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Sure, TFC is going to get better, more consistent, more competitive. So is every other team in the league. Which teams, specifically, do we think TFC is going to pass by this year or next year?

Everyone accepts that, once again, TFC got a late start to the season, didn't have management in place for the full off-season and started further behind every other team in the league (even the expansion teams). So, sure, this year will be another "learning experience," and we don't expect to compete this year but we do seem to think that the natural thing will be that next year the team will be better and all I'm saying is EVERY team feels that way, every team is trying to get more consistent and more competitive and there's really no reason to think TFC will do any better at it than any other team. We haven't really seen any signs yet that TFC can "punch above its weight" which is what's needed to be at the top of a salary cap league.

We're getting exactly what anyone would expect out of these players, no better and no worse.

I agree, there are no guarantees that TFC will finish in the top half of the table by the end of the season. In a league that is mired in parity, I also believe there is a minimal discrepancy in talent among the teams in the bottom half of the standings.

I have seen enough positives in the last few games to summize that the team is slowly but surely moving in the right direction. Last night for example, despite the disappointing result, featured the most prolific attacking display in the first half that I've witnessed at BMO Field in quite some time. There were a few passing sequences involving Plata, Santos, Tchani, and JDG that were an absolute pleasure to watch. Unfortunately, the team took their foot off the gas pedal after taking a 2-0 lead and they paid the price. Hopefully, it will be a lesson learned for a young squad that is still very much a work in progress.

denime
05-15-2011, 01:13 PM
Well then we should be the happiest people on the planet because TFC has been screwing us continuously for 5...er "V" rather...years.

So why are you than so miserable lately? :D

jazzy
05-15-2011, 01:22 PM
The only consistency in this club is my love for Stefan Frei. Im getting a kit. Black or Green?

both!..ha......I don't buy many but must say my black,(my first),... it's an honor to have his name on it.................if I was a spend thrift, or nuts,...(maybe)? I'd even buy the green,..defintely a nice summer shirt and which he wears the most and it is sharp....uh apparently rumour has it we'll have a couple of games in the summer,....lol

69Chevy396
05-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Shit..I forgot to directly answer your question.

He's not happy with Attakora. Still has confidence in him but is not satisfied with him right now. Said it in his interview.

Why are you (and others) still asking this question?

Do you think you can better assess talent than Aron Winter?

Do you know how Attakora has been playing and training in recent days/weeks?

No....of course not. All you know is that Gargan sucks so the solution is to put in another player, any player. No matter the outcome, because of course...you know exactly what would have happened had Attakora played right?

Gimme a break.
After the 3-0 loss to Seattle I was reading some posts re: the problems TFC was facing, and yours was particularly pointed, and I agreed with you then:

I quote: "Brutal game for everyone except Frei.

But all this "I told you so" talk is a joke.

Yes....this team lacks talent at several important positions but last night lack of talent wasnt the only reason tfc failed miserably.

It was a combo of a low talent group of players totally ignoring the gameplan.

How or why does this happen? It's one thing to be outclassed by another team but at least learn something from it. At least get used to playing out your gameplan so that you can improve on it for future games.

As soon as we start constantly kicking the ball up field I tune out.

I also don't understand winters choice at rb. Why does Gargan play so much?

Winters sub choices were strange too but it could very well be a case of him recognising that the players weren't interested enough so he may as well see what a guy like gold can do. Who knows?"

Well, last night, when Chicago were pressing after our defenders were exhausted, they hoofed the ball up the field, and despite continued effort by Martina and others, they lost their formation as there was no adequate distribution from the back end. Unless you have seen Attakora practice lately all you have to go on in rendering this assessment of his decline, is what Winter says about him. In this regard, I do no more about this than Winter, because unlike him, I watched him play last season and know what he is capable of. Had Gargan not given away the ball so easily that second goal would not have happened. He played better than he has in the past, but saying that Winter has not options other than him is ridiculous unless you simply agree with whatever Winter says without reflection or memory of how good Attakora has played. When the latter gets traded and once again becomes the standout defender, it won't be me who is eating his words.

mightydrm
05-15-2011, 01:31 PM
I agree with the Springsteen fan that it is an odd call not to have Nana on the bench. I also agree that the club should be concerned about attendance; it has been in continual slow decline since last summer. (i don't agree with all the night games, for example, or the second year in a row with so few summer games) But I don't agree with the rest of the doom and gloom stuff - the team was exciting yesterday, and the game a blast. Teams have trouble with 2-0 leads. Just ask West Ham.....

Cashcleaner
05-15-2011, 01:31 PM
The only consistency in this club is my love for Stefan Frei. Im getting a kit. Black or Green?

LOL! I know I was seriously considering slapping down some cash yesterday to get the black top and put his name and number on.

Jamaicanadian
05-15-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.

Bro! How come you're not coaching at this level.......but writing about coaching at this level?

As much as it pains me to say this; your opinion is as good as mine!

jazzy
05-15-2011, 01:53 PM
[QUOTE=denime;1299174]Roogsy ,this is true but the problem is with all those sick MF sex predators out there,kids can't play any outdoor sport today unless is organized and under adult/coach supervision.With supervision and instructions they can't feel free,and that's the problem we have in NA.


I have to wonder about this statement, many books theorize on how are children have lost simple play period's or as Roogsy stated, with a great phrase "joy to play"..times..Were there not predators in earlier times ??, is this a modern phenom? I highly doubt it. I feel, with the utmost respect to this viewpoint, that a part of our desire to control and define our childrens growth and interactions within society contribute to this lack of freeform and devil may care growth, to our children which is highly needed (IMHO) for a child to grow and explore life and develop creative solutions to all that life has to offer. Which is why we, and many experts agree, is why sports form an important vehicle for childrens interactions in the first place...??...My children are a bit older now but I , tried very hard to find environments , where they could get out and be alone within their own unsupervised,.private worlds and they ensueingly recipicated that trust later on. , ....and we lived in the downtown core......oh ya I grew up in , Jane and Finch....where freedom to play is even more treasured....simply again, "respectfully", if children are respected and educated about their surroundings........they will share thier wisdom at home,....my 3 girls are the stronger for it,.....just sayin

AmherstNY_TFC
05-15-2011, 02:52 PM
My $0.02:

1) I still believe.

2) TFC is not going to become a competitive side overnight. Four years of whiffing on draft picks, trades, Designated Player signings and "street" free agent signings have condemned TFC to being the third expansion team. The changes are not going to happen overnight. There is a small talent pool in the US and Canada, and getting foreigners to play here is difficult, as the money and competition is better overseas. There are plenty of MLS players who have opted to play in places like Norway and Denmark or the lower leagues in places like Germany. So, management is at a disadvantage when trying to sign players to begin with.

3) With the salary cap a consideration, unfortunately, you get stuck with journeymen like Dan Gargan, Nick Garcia before him, and Marco Velez before him.

4) I thought that they played well over most of the game. The players are starting to grasp the system, and I think we have settled on a starting 11. Left back seems to be the only position up for grabs right now. This is a young team that went through an overhaul after the start of the season (the DeRo trade). They have to learn to be professionals, and learning how to close games out is part of that process.

5) It's not as simple as saying that the substitution of Plata caused the game to turn. Chicago adjusted their tactics, and the ball fell right for them twice. That free kick was perfectly struck (it could easily have ended up in the Beer Garden). Frei got his hand on the ball, but it deflected off their player and went in. Conway almost fumbled a corner kick into the net. If anyone from TFC gets a foot on that ball, we're talking about a 3-2 win.

6) I don't think we should pin our hopes on some Designated Player coming in as a savior when the transfer window re-opens. New England did not sign a Designated Player while Marnier was employed by them.

torontocelt
05-15-2011, 03:45 PM
Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.

In fairness you can be a great player with a great history at the top level but you can still suck ass as a manager, take a bow one Mr John Barnes. Fantastic player in his day, played at the very top level internationally and domestically but his results as a manager were nothing short of appalling. As I am sure you are aware there are many like John Barnes also, he is just one example.

Will Winter be another Barnes, well that is yet to be seen but there are some similarities. Barnes took the Celtic job as his first management job ever, he had Kenny Dalglish working above him as a director of football, he was meant to be helping Barnes giving him advice as this was his first management job. Barnes decided to play a 4, 2, 2, 2 formation which was quite common in South America but not so common in Scotland. He would not budge from his belief that this formation would work for Celtic and despite having a team which was quite rich in talent (Viduka, Larsson (bad injury kept him out most of the season), Lambert, Petrov, Berkovic etc) and money to spend (5m pounds on Rafeal Schitd, worst transfer in Celtic's history) he still managed to only win 65% of his matches.

It was not long before Barnes was sacked, 8 months actually. Barnes was proven to be tactically naive as his formation was clearly not suited for the ultra physical league in Scotland. On top of this despite having some class players they could not play the way he envisioned, alas they were not Brazil and due to this players eventually turned against him as they felt he simply did not know what he was doing. Barnes tenure will go down as one of the worst in Celtic's history, a coach with a decorated playing history who had no management history and who had unrealistic expectations of his players and a misunderstanding of the league he was managing in. It is quite funny though that Dalglish managed to come out with some dignity as he won us a cup after taking over in the short term with exactly the same players but obviously he has proven in the past and present that he can manage a team. Furthermore Martin O'neill took over that summer and although the club had finished a massive 20 points behind rangers the previous year he lead us to a domestic treble in his first season. Three years later Celtic made it to the uefa cup final losing to porto (managed by jose and one year later they were european champions) by 3 goals to 2 after extra time. It is amazing what kind of impact a great manager can have on a club and it is also equally amazing the impact a poor manager can have on a club.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 03:56 PM
So why are you than so miserable lately? :D

Some of us like a little cuddling after.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 04:19 PM
In fairness you can be a great player with a great history at the top level but you can still suck ass as a manager.

The coaching ranks are filled with the corpses of once great players who couldn't make the transition. And there are a lot of successful coaches who never played the games they coach at an elite level.

It's too early to say about Winter, plus there's the problem that he walked into the middle of a huge mess. A great trial by fire, I guess, with a team he has no real connection to, so a good learning experience.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 04:29 PM
Which raises the question, what evidence is there that Winter is a successful coach? Carver was an assistant too.

He was a great player no doubt. But we were promised the best coaching team in MLS, shouldn't there be some history to back that up?

denime
05-15-2011, 04:30 PM
Some of us like a little cuddling after.

True ,no cuddling when you support teams owned by ML$E,business only.

ag futbol
05-15-2011, 04:30 PM
You can slice, dice, divy up this rebuilding project any way we like it but identifying and signing the right players is critical. Soolsma, Martina, and Stevanovic should be providing answers going forward when they are not.

It is very hard to extrapolate that lack of performance on anyone else. JDG-Tchani are providing adequate control of the midfield and we generally have two competent fullbacks who can make it forward. The central defenders are not spectacular but can generally do their jobs.

Can't depend on average career MLS players and one superdraft pick we got lucky with to do everything.

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 04:58 PM
Well, last night, when Chicago were pressing after our defenders were exhausted, they hoofed the ball up the field, and despite continued effort by Martina and others, they lost their formation as there was no adequate distribution from the back end. Unless you have seen Attakora practice lately all you have to go on in rendering this assessment of his decline, is what Winter says about him. In this regard, I do no more about this than Winter, because unlike him, I watched him play last season and know what he is capable of. Had Gargan not given away the ball so easily that second goal would not have happened. He played better than he has in the past, but saying that Winter has not options other than him is ridiculous unless you simply agree with whatever Winter says without reflection or memory of how good Attakora has played. When the latter gets traded and once again becomes the standout defender, it won't be me who is eating his words.

The way Attakora played last year is completely irrelevant. Look at Cann for example.

He was very good last year. This year, he hasn't looked nearly as good. The reason being....more is being asked of him. (and Nana for that matter)

The Attakora of last year is not what this team needs. TFC needs players like Nana and Cann to adapt to the new system and the demands that the system put on them. Nana's first touch wasn't good last year. Neither was his decision making on the ball, passing of the ball or awarness on the pitch.

That being said, he's young. He's got lots of physical skills and I think he can get better in all the areas that I mentioned above. He's just not there yet. Add to that that there may be some attitude/committment issues (just a guess on my part) and there are several reasons why he's not an option for Winter.

BTW...Winter does not have to have seen Nana play last year to know what kind of player he is. I'm sure Winter can identify a players skill set quite quickly. Especially when he's watching him train, day in and day out.

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 05:01 PM
The coaching ranks are filled with the corpses of once great players who couldn't make the transition. And there are a lot of successful coaches who never played the games they coach at an elite level.

It's too early to say about Winter, plus there's the problem that he walked into the middle of a huge mess. A great trial by fire, I guess, with a team he has no real connection to, so a good learning experience.


Which raises the question, what evidence is there that Winter is a successful coach? Carver was an assistant too.

He was a great player no doubt. But we were promised the best coaching team in MLS, shouldn't there be some history to back that up?

Honest questions guys.

Do you see progress in the way TFC plays now, as compared to the way they've played for the last 4 seasons?

I think they're moving about the pitch much more as a team than they ever have. They keep their shape better and they move into space better.

They're nowhere near good at it....but I see improvements.

Do you?

torontocelt
05-15-2011, 05:07 PM
BTW...Winter does not have to have seen Nana play last year to know what kind of player he is. I'm sure Winter can identify a players skill set quite quickly. Especially when he's watching him train, day in and day out.

Peterson, Gargan? I would be very worried if Winter rates these two which he appears to at the moment.

backbeat
05-15-2011, 05:09 PM
Peterson, Gargan? I would be very worried if Winter rates these two which he appears to at the moment.

Winter is building a team/system/culture - he said that at the beginning - i am quite sure that both will not be around, unless as depth, next year.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 05:10 PM
Yeah, sure there are some improvements. Just not enough to be very optimistic. This whole Nana situation for example, how long will it go on before they either trade him or cut him and bring in someone better or put him in a game? Themain issue is roster - there's a salary cap and a small roster to deal with it doesn't seem like.

At this point the team would probably have more points if Preki had been allowed to continue. At least he knew the level of players he could attract to TFC and what they were capable of and built around that.

This "culture" talk was actuially a bigger risk than I think the team should have taken after four less than successful seasons. It may work out great but it may also be a complete failure because they won't be able to get enough players who can make it work. Meanwhile, almost every other MLS team manages to get better and some are moving quite a bit past the rest of the pack.

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 05:19 PM
Peterson, Gargan? I would be very worried if Winter rates these two which he appears to at the moment.

Winter is not content with the current roster. He said it again in the post game press conference.

I can only assume he'd like an upgrade in the attacking mid and lb depts.

ExiledRed
05-15-2011, 05:28 PM
This "culture" talk was actuially a bigger risk than I think the team should have taken after four less than successful seasons. It may work out great but it may also be a complete failure because they won't be able to get enough players who can make it work. Meanwhile, almost every other MLS team manages to get better and some are moving quite a bit past the rest of the pack.

This talk of fabricating a 'culture' has been the most absurd aspect of this episode in my opinion.

First you generate a history, through winning that is, and then the culture will follow, otherwise what is your culture based on other than hypothetical anecdotes about european kids who play for Ajax and then get sold for good money to higher leagues?

backbeat
05-15-2011, 05:36 PM
This talk of fabricating a 'culture' has been the most absurd aspect of this episode in my opinion.

First you generate a history, through winning that is, and then the culture will follow, otherwise what is your culture based on other than hypothetical anecdotes about european kids who play for Ajax and then get sold for good money to higher leagues?

actually - i think you need to be systematic about developing it down the pipeline to the academy sides - develop players in the style/culture of the 1st team - i don't think a happen-chance style evolved over time will deliver faster than being pragmatic and systematic about it.

again i believe they're going about it the right way - but - it will take time

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 05:38 PM
Winter is not content with the current roster. He said it again in the post game press conference.

I can only assume he'd like an upgrade in the attacking mid and lb depts.


Well, every MLS coach wants an upgrade to their roster - and an increase in the salary cap and an increase in the size of the roster. What makes a good MLS team is the ability to balance a few higher paid players with a core group and to get the most out of that core, to get them, "punching above their weight," so to speak.

It may be that I have a personal bias against this talk of "culture" because I grew up in Canada and have spent my whole life hearing about superior European culture, so I didn't really want to get into that, but yes, it's absurd.

Exiled is right, win some games, that'll bring in all the culture anybody needs. So far I haven't seen this team do anything different than any other sports team in the world.

Darlofletch
05-15-2011, 05:39 PM
Very disappointed about last night's game but I saw a lot of positives.

-best 1st half of footy this season so far. lots of hustle, passing was accurate. wing play was by far most dangerous.
-JDG/Tchani combo works in the middle
-Gargan had a decent game, except for sucking at 1v1 for 2nd goal. even his passes were spot on for most part
-Frei is a god
-Peterson's set pieces were better than normal
-Plata is right now the most dangerous TFC attacker. that kid has some good footy smarts. makes rights decision most of the times and just so confident in himself
-Plata has some sort of telepathic connection with Maicon. they hook each other up pretty nicely
-Santos is a poacher striker. he'll disappear for long stretches of the game, but he can still pop up from nowhere to get involved. no more of this AM nonsense plz
-Eck is #1 RB.
-Soolsma had his best TFC outing. Yes, he's slow, but he's got skills and smarts to still be effective on the wings.

What plagues TFC right now is lack of confidence and overall slackness in defensive end. I'm not sure how Winter is going to fix this, but defending is a team responsibility.

First half, I saw what Winter wanted this team to play like, and it was just as dangerous as any MLS team in attack. Whether Winter can get the lads to play that dangerously consistently, but I'm drinking the kool aid.

PS: Tchani exposed the flaws of NCAA system. That lad has so much raw talent but his passing and first touch... ugh. if he can put together his passing and first touch, he'll be next Shalrie Joseph

Stevanovic is turning into another Laurent Robert really soon...

Just getting chance to go through the thread now, but +1 to pretty much all of that.

especially the gargan bit, he's obviously got limitations but he played a decent game last night. he's not as good as the hype made him out to be last year, but he's not as bad as everyone keeps saying this year. 70,000's maybe a bit much, and I wouldn't want him in the starting lineup regularly, but he's a valuable part of the squad.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 05:43 PM
Honest questions guys.

Do you see progress in the way TFC plays now, as compared to the way they've played for the last 4 seasons?

I think they're moving about the pitch much more as a team than they ever have. They keep their shape better and they move into space better.

They're nowhere near good at it....but I see improvements.

Do you?

I will answer your question but I do hope you answer mine as well.

I am not one of those people that accept change for the sake of change. I have always viewed the departure of Mo as not just cleaning out the garbage of the last few years but to start anew doing it right.

For me Winter's hiring immediately raised questions. Much like when I interview people for positions in my firm, I look for history and performance to give me an indication of what their capabilities are. If i look at Winter's CV, I don't see anything that says to me "this guy has proven to be able to do THIS job that I need him to do". Or is there? Unless I have missed something.

Do I see changes on the pitch? Yeah. Is it "better"? It is better only in that it's a departure of the ugly football Preki had us playing but that's about as positive as I can be about the new "system". Like Preki's system, there are glaring gaps that other teams can and have exposed. I don't see any new brilliance with this new system. I just see a different style of playing without any substantive reason to believe that this system IS the answer to TFC's woes and that it will definitely be effective in MLS. What's worse, the fact that Winter's system a helluvalot more difficult for average players than Preki's system and I will readily admit that as much as I hated Preki's system (and quite frankly the man himself) I would rather have him here now than this experiement.

And that is what this whole thing is. An experiment. An experiment into finding out whether the Dutch style can be successful in MLS. Everybody assumes it will be but there is a reason that its not adopted everywhere. The Dutch style fits in Holland. There are no guarantees it will work in North America. And if it doesn't? We will have once again wasted several years and have to start over. I'm tired of reasonable performance measures and standards not being put in place. In a well run business, timelines, expectations and consequences are clearly outlined. But once again its not done here. Wasn't that the mistake with Mo in the first place? We are once again asked "to believe" when there is no evidence supporting a reason to believe other than blind faith. We are making the same mistake we did at the beginning of year 1, giving far too much faith without any assurances in return. We have once again written TFC a blank cheque and given it to them with a smile. There is a lack of prudence in this whole scenario.

So do I see improvements? As a general answer, no. We're just playing differently. Improvements involves a certain level of measuring an appreciation either in quality or quantity and there has been none of that. With Preki we played ugly and defended like crazy and got below average results. With Winter we're now playing a prettier brand of soccer but we're not significantly improving our scoring and now we're worse at defending. That's not "better", that's just different.

backbeat
05-15-2011, 05:51 PM
I will answer your question but I do hope you answer mine as well.

I am not one of those people that accept change for the sake of change. I have always viewed the departure of Mo as not just cleaning out the garbage of the last few years but to start anew doing it right.

For me Winter's hiring immediately raised questions. Much like when I interview people for positions in my firm, I look for history and performance to give me an indication of what their capabilities are. If i look at Winter's CV, I don't see anything that says to me "this guy has proven to be able to do THIS job that I need him to do". Or is there? Unless I have missed something.

Do I see changes on the pitch? Yeah. Is it "better"? It is better only in that it's a departure of the ugly football Preki had us playing but that's about as positive as I can be about the new "system". Like Preki's system, there are glaring gaps that other teams can and have exposed. I don't see any brilliance. I just see a different style of playing without any substantive reason to believe that this system IS the answer to TFC's woes and that it will definitely be effective in MLS. What's worse, the fact that Winter's system a helluvalot more difficult for average players than Preki's system and I will readily admit that as much as I hated Preki's system (and quite frankly the man himself) I would rather have him here now than this experiement.

And that is what this whole thing is. An experiment. An experiment into finding out whether the Dutch style can be successful in MLS. Everybody assumes it will be but there is a reason that its not adopted everywhere. The Dutch style fits in Holland. There are no guarantees it will work in North America. And if it doesn't? We will have once again wasted several years and have to start over. I'm tired of reasonable performance measures and standards being put in place. We are once again asked "to believe" when there is no evidence supporting a reason to believe other than blind faith.

So do I see improvements? As a general answer, no. We're just playing differently. Improvements involves a certain level of measuring an appreciation either in quality or quantity and there has been none of that. With Preki we played ugly and defended like crazy and got below average results. With Winter we're now playing a prettier brand of soccer but we're not significantly improving our scoring and now we're worse at defending. That's not "better", that's just different.

and yet we're about 1/3rd into his first season at the helm - and you're ready to write him off?

rocker
05-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Preki got almost a season to prove himself, and Roogsy would be willing to have him back.... but Winter gets 11 games to prove himself. Interesting.

Like Jason Kreis says.... you can't judge a coach on less than one season. No sense pontificating about whether Winter is a failure or not at this time. That's my opinion.

Pachuco
05-15-2011, 06:02 PM
Honest questions guys.

Do you see progress in the way TFC plays now, as compared to the way they've played for the last 4 seasons?

I think they're moving about the pitch much more as a team than they ever have. They keep their shape better and they move into space better.

They're nowhere near good at it....but I see improvements.

Do you?

Personally, the team that was 1 point of out being in the playoffs under Carver/Cummins was a much better team in my opinion. I do think the team Winter has built though is better then Preki's team.

But all this talk about the best soccer I've seen at BMO is crazy, particularly in a game where we didn't even win. People want to believe so bad that anytime we get a goal at home it becomes the best soccer they've ever seen. Sorry but there's no sense in extrapulating part of a game and praising it if they couldn't hold that for an entire 90 minutes.

To this day, Winter's team has been incapable of playing a solid game. They've had their moments, but every TFC team has had their moments. Do I need to remind people that Mo Johnston's team beat Dallas at home 4-0? And that was the worst team we've ever seen at BMO.

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 06:02 PM
Where have I written him off? Saying we need to demand perfornance measures and insisting on a more certain timeline isn't exactly writing someone off and claiming that to be my point is misleading and false. He's here, we might as well get used to him. But damn we're fools for praising professional soccer players for performing at a basic level and making passes and holding shape. If you want me to believe in Winter, after 4 yars of another "successful player" at the helm of the club, then I need to know I'm not buying into another "5 year plan" with vague promises and requests that we believe in them because "this time we have it right". If we don't have even a measure of skepticism, then we're fools and deserved to be swindled again.

Shakes McQueen
05-15-2011, 06:05 PM
Honest questions guys.

Do you see progress in the way TFC plays now, as compared to the way they've played for the last 4 seasons?

I think they're moving about the pitch much more as a team than they ever have. They keep their shape better and they move into space better.

They're nowhere near good at it....but I see improvements.

Do you?

I think the roster talent clearly isn't where it needs to be, but I agree with you that in the stretches where they are linking up reasonably well, we do look like a better team than any previous season.

This is why, despite the results not being where they will ultimately need to be, I am still optimistic about the job Winter and Mariner are doing.

- Scott

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 06:09 PM
Preki got almost a season to prove himself, and Roogsy would be willing to have him back.... but Winter gets 11 games to prove himself. Interesting.

Like Jason Kreis says.... you can't judge a coach on less than one season. No sense pontificating about whether Winter is a failure or not at this time. That's my opinion.

So if MLSE had hired me to do this job you would have given me a year or more to prove myself? At what point do we have standards? At what point do we say "if you want me to give you time, you have to give me some answers and not ask me to blindly believe again!". That's not reasonable? Or do we accept everything this team does at face value because "real supporters" do that?

Yohan
05-15-2011, 06:15 PM
6) I don't think we should pin our hopes on some Designated Player coming in as a savior when the transfer window re-opens. New England did not sign a Designated Player while Marnier was employed by them.
NER ownership is tight arsed with cash. Though they did sign a DP finally this season.

I think Mariner will sign a DP, but he's not going to sign anyone.

Darlofletch
05-15-2011, 06:17 PM
and yet we're about 1/3rd into his first season at the helm - and you're ready to write him off?


Preki got almost a season to prove himself, and Roogsy would be willing to have him back.... but Winter gets 11 games to prove himself. Interesting.

Like Jason Kreis says.... you can't judge a coach on less than one season. No sense pontificating about whether Winter is a failure or not at this time. That's my opinion.

defending roogsy? this feels wrong, but here I am.

where in his post did he say that he's written off winter. he's on the fence, and is just making the point that we've got no real evidence so far to back up the giant leap of faith we've all been asked to make.

There's little moments here and there that make us look good, the first half yesteday was great, but there's obviously a long way to go beofre we're making this system a success.

it's fair to question whether it will actually work given the limitations of mls. admitting to doubts doesn't equate to writing the whole thing off.

Shakes McQueen
05-15-2011, 06:18 PM
Personally, the team that was 1 point of out being in the playoffs under Carver/Cummins was a much better team in my opinion. I do think the team Winter has built though is better then Preki's team.

I think that team contained somewhat better players than Winter is currently operating with. That was the year we were flush with allocation money.

- Scott

Roogsy
05-15-2011, 06:21 PM
defending roogsy? this feels wrong, but here I am.

where in his post did he say that he's written off winter. he's on the fence, and is just making the point that we've got no real evidence so far to back up the giant leap of faith we've all been asked to make.

There's little moments here and there that make us look good, the first half yesteday was great, but there's obviously a long way to go beofre we're making this system a success.

it's fair to question whether it will actually work given the limitations of mls. admitting to doubts doesn't equate to writing the whole thing off.

Dear lord the Apocalypse is upon us. :lol:

Thanks, that's all I really want to say. On that note, I'm off to a Halo night with the guys. :hump:

Darlofletch
05-15-2011, 06:26 PM
Yes, the former starting right back for the Netherlands obviously knows nothing of this sport.

Jesus wept. I think I'm going to have to establish a 10 metre cordon of "dumb" from any computer running the forums for the next four or five weeks.

Anyone want to talk tactics? Player responsibilities? Or we could just go with simpistic rage, maybe smash something.

wow, could you be any more condescending, as has been pointed out, there's plenty of great players that haven't worked as coaches. and wasn't winter a midfielder?

plenty of wrong in a post where you're calling other people dumb.

Shakes McQueen
05-15-2011, 06:30 PM
wow, could you be any more condescending, as has been pointed out, there's plenty of great players that haven't worked as coaches. and wasn't winter a midfielder?

I think his exasperation has more to do with when people accuse Winter of making "clear" and "obvious" errors in his tactical or roster decisions, despite the fact that he has likely forgotten more football knowledge than most of us will ever learn.

Yes, many good players have failed at coaches - in all sports. But I also think fans fail to have a little humility sometimes, in recognizing that Winter possesses a lot of inside and intimate knowledge of the team that none of us has.

So when Winter leaves a player off the team that you think should have obviously started, it probably isn't because he went "herp-a-derp" and threw darts at the depth chart.

- Scott

Gazza
05-15-2011, 06:32 PM
I think his exasperation has more to do with when people accuse Winter of making "clear" and "obvious" errors in his tactical or roster decisions, despite the fact that he has likely forgotten more football knowledge than most of us will ever learn.

Yes, many good players have failed at coaches - in all sports. But I also think fans fail to have a little humility sometimes, in recognizing that Winter possesses a lot of inside and intimate knowledge of the team that none of has.

So when Winter leaves a player off the team that you think should have have obviously started, it probably isn't because he went "herp-a-derp" and threw darts at the depth chart.

- Scott

Great post.

Darlofletch
05-15-2011, 06:44 PM
I think his exasperation has more to do with when people accuse Winter of making "clear" and "obvious" errors in his tactical or roster decisions, despite the fact that he has likely forgotten more football knowledge than most of us will ever learn.

Yes, many good players have failed at coaches - in all sports. But I also think fans fail to have a little humility sometimes, in recognizing that Winter possesses a lot of inside and intimate knowledge of the team that none of us has.

So when Winter leaves a player off the team that you think should have obviously started, it probably isn't because he went "herp-a-derp" and threw darts at the depth chart.

- Scott

obviously all that's true, but the 'forgotten more knowledge..' and 'inside and intimate knowledge...' bits are probably true of anyone that's ever been a coach or player. including all the ones who've failed miserably at coaching. doesn't mean they're all always right.

to call him an idiot as the poster who provoked the 'dumb' remark did is going a bit too far, but still, twas a ridiculously pompous comeback.

Beach_Red
05-15-2011, 07:01 PM
I think his exasperation has more to do with when people accuse Winter of making "clear" and "obvious" errors in his tactical or roster decisions, despite the fact that he has likely forgotten more football knowledge than most of us will ever learn.

Yes, many good players have failed at coaches - in all sports. But I also think fans fail to have a little humility sometimes, in recognizing that Winter possesses a lot of inside and intimate knowledge of the team that none of us has.

So when Winter leaves a player off the team that you think should have obviously started, it probably isn't because he went "herp-a-derp" and threw darts at the depth chart.

- Scott

But when it's a player with known contract issues it's to be expected that people have questions about the decisions and who's ultimately making them, especially with this organization's history of saying silly things like Dichio can't fly. Sure, Winter may not know that, he's new here, but someone in the FO should know that these kinds of questions will be raised.

Unless all that, "we screwed up," and "we're sorry," and "we'll do better" from the town halls was just empty PR to sell some tickets...

v00d00daddy
05-15-2011, 07:08 PM
I will answer your question but I do hope you answer mine as well.

I may have missed it.....what question?



I am not one of those people that accept change for the sake of change. I have always viewed the departure of Mo as not just cleaning out the garbage of the last few years but to start anew doing it right.

For me Winter's hiring immediately raised questions. Much like when I interview people for positions in my firm, I look for history and performance to give me an indication of what their capabilities are. If i look at Winter's CV, I don't see anything that says to me "this guy has proven to be able to do THIS job that I need him to do". Or is there? Unless I have missed something.

Okay...well who would have fulfilled that requirement? There are a handful of MLS coaches who have found success in this league. One of them maybe? Otherwise we're left looking for coaches from other leagues.


Do I see changes on the pitch? Yeah. Is it "better"? It is better only in that it's a departure of the ugly football Preki had us playing but that's about as positive as I can be about the new "system". Like Preki's system, there are glaring gaps that other teams can and have exposed. I don't see any new brilliance with this new system. I just see a different style of playing without any substantive reason to believe that this system IS the answer to TFC's woes and that it will definitely be effective in MLS. What's worse, the fact that Winter's system a helluvalot more difficult for average players than Preki's system and I will readily admit that as much as I hated Preki's system (and quite frankly the man himself) I would rather have him here now than this experiement.

I've read the posts after this one and I find it interesting that you (and others) are saying that you're not writing Winter off. You've said that you were skeptical from day one, haven't seen anything that makes you optimistic, and have gone so far as saying that you'd rather have back a coach who's system you hated (not to mention that you hate the man as well).

You didn't come out and say that you've written him off but it doesn't sound like you're very far from doing so. I'd say you already have.


And that is what this whole thing is. An experiment. An experiment into finding out whether the Dutch style can be successful in MLS. Everybody assumes it will be but there is a reason that its not adopted everywhere. The Dutch style fits in Holland. There are no guarantees it will work in North America. And if it doesn't? We will have once again wasted several years and have to start over. I'm tired of reasonable performance measures and standards not being put in place. In a well run business, timelines, expectations and consequences are clearly outlined. But once again its not done here. Wasn't that the mistake with Mo in the first place? We are once again asked "to believe" when there is no evidence supporting a reason to believe other than blind faith. We are making the same mistake we did at the beginning of year 1, giving far too much faith without any assurances in return. We have once again written TFC a blank cheque and given it to them with a smile. There is a lack of prudence in this whole scenario.

People are getting hung up on this "Dutch style" thing. What Winter is doing is not exclusively Dutch or any other thing. It's about playing football the way most people on this planet try to play it. Dictating the pace of the game, holding possession as much as you can and exploiting your opposition in the process.

Granted, it hasn't been working all that well but I think it's a thing that is going to take time to come. It takes a roster of players that are on the same page. Not necessarily all gifted players, but players that have sound fundamentals and who know how to fulfill a specific role.

In that department I think there have been improvements. We have wingers that we've never really had before and we're working out kinks in the back line in an attempt to find a consistent back four with backs that can get forward. It's gonna take more than 10-12 games to sort that out.


So do I see improvements? As a general answer, no. We're just playing differently. Improvements involves a certain level of measuring an appreciation either in quality or quantity and there has been none of that. With Preki we played ugly and defended like crazy and got below average results. With Winter we're now playing a prettier brand of soccer but we're not significantly improving our scoring and now we're worse at defending. That's not "better", that's just different.

And that's where I say we'll have to agree to disagree. Only time will tell.