2011 Salaries

[oxygenatedbrain]

Hadn't noticed any discussion on this...if I missed it, kill it.

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/May%...0By%20Club.pdf (http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/May%201,%202011%20Salary%20Information%20-%20By%20Club.pdf)

[ArmenJBX]

Excellent, excellent spread of salary cap.
Lots of good, cheap players, no more overpricing (Martina at 90k for example)
Frei making 150k is fair.
Stevanovic at 250k is I guess justified based on his pedigree.
All in all, a much more "average" salary spread than years past.

[Roogsy]

Ouch...when you take all the salaries into account, it almost 2.4mill of base salaries and 2.7mill of guaranteed comp. When you take into account that we are paying half of DeRo and Barrett's contracts, unless we have a crapload of allocation space, there is no more room for players.


Excellent, excellent spread of salary cap.
Lots of good, cheap players, no more overpricing (Martina at 90k for example)
Frei making 150k is fair.
Stevanovic at 250k is I guess justified based on his pedigree.
All in all, a much more "average" salary spread than years past.

That's a good thing?

[ArmenJBX]

Ouch...when you take all the salaries into account, it almost 2.4mill of base salaries and 2.7mill of guaranteed comp. When you take into account that we are paying half of DeRo and Barrett's contracts, unless we have a crapload of allocation space, there is no more room for players.



That's a good thing?

Consider the fact that we payed Garcia 200k+, Barrett 250k and De Rosario 350k, I'd say we're getting a lot more bang for the buck now.

[A.J]

Players in the roster spots from 21 to 30 don't count towards the cap.

And I didn't know Stevanovic's salary was that high. Is TFC paying that in full?

[Roogsy]

Players in the roster spots from 21 to 30 don't count towards the cap.

And I didn't know Stevanovic's salary was that high. Is TFC paying that in full?


Ah ok, that does not make somewhat of a difference.

[Roogsy]

Consider the fact that we payed Garcia 200k+, Barrett 250k and De Rosario 350k, I'd say we're getting a lot more bang for the buck now.

Barrett and DeRo were our top 2 scorers last year and they totaled 600k in salary. How many player salaries are you going to have to add up to reach their production on goals and assists by the end of the year? I wouldn't be surprised if goes well past 600k. So in that respect, no, it's not better "bang for your buck". I am not sure how you are measuring this efficiency, but it will be an interesting exercise at the end of the year.

[QSIM]

We have a good spread to move forward in the future (beyond this season)

[razor787]

The salaries confuse me a bit. Which is it that is the actual cap hit, the base salary, or the compensation? And what is the difference between them? How would someone get the 'compensation' rate, instead of the base?

[torontocelt]

Adrian Cann, Stephan Frei, Peterson (especially), Srurgis and Stenanovich, WTF?

[Brooker]

do Harden and Peterson have the same agent? if so, he's a fucking genius.

[CretanBull]

Peterson is over-paid by about $100,000 a year.

[flamehawk]

Wow Ecky only on 75,000? That's a steal. Soolsma seems a little overrated considering that at >$80k

[menefreghista]

Ouch...when you take all the salaries into account, it almost 2.4mill of base salaries and 2.7mill of guaranteed comp. When you take into account that we are paying half of DeRo and Barrett's contracts, unless we have a crapload of allocation space, there is no more room for players.

You should also keep in mind that Tchani is a GA player, so he has no cap hit.

Did Frei graduate from GA?

[Pookie]

Ouch...when you take all the salaries into account, it almost 2.4mill of base salaries and 2.7mill of guaranteed comp. When you take into account that we are paying half of DeRo and Barrett's contracts, unless we have a crapload of allocation space, there is no more room for players.




In your math have you considered:

- only the first 20 roster spots count against the cap
- Tchani is a Gen Adidas player and does not count

?

Regardless, only the base salaries count against the cap. Cap is 2.67M.

And if we bring in someone else, only half of their salary counts against the 2011 cap given when they would arrive with the transfer window.

Assuming that we didn't release anyone off the current roster we could easily fit in a cap max hit player (ie. DP or combination thereof) without allocation money.

[kaos197O]

TFC ONLY

BASE/GUARANTEED COMP.

Attakora $ 45,000/ $ 45,000
Borman $ 42,000/ $ 42,000
Bouchiba $ 92,004/ $ 92,004
Cann $ 123,996/ $ 132,746
Cordon $ 32,604/ $ 32,604
de Guzman $1,863,996/ $1,910,746
Eckersley $ 75,000/ $ 90,000
Frei $ 100,000/ $ 155,000
Gargan $ 70,000/ $ 70,000
Gold $ 42,000/ $ 42,000
Gordon $ 96,504/ $ 96,504
Harden $ 65,000/ $ 73,666.67
Henry $ 42,000/ $ 43,000
Kocic $ 42,000/ $ 42,000
Lindsay $ 42,000/ $ 43,000
Makubuya $ 32,604/ $ 32,604
Martina $ 89,460/ $ 96,140.75
Morgan $ 32,604/ $ 32,604
Omphroy $ 42,000/ $ 42,000
Peterson $ 142,500/ $ 150,775
Plata $ 42,000/ $ 42,000
Santos $ 126,000/ $ 126,000
Soolsma $ 86,004/ $ 86,004
Stevanovich $ 240,000/ $ 250,000
Stinson $ 32,604/ $ 32,604
Sturgis $ 85,000/ $ 89,250
Tchani $ 90,000/ $ 194,000
Williams $ 50,004/ $ 50,004
Yourassowsky $ 80,004/ $ 81,670.67
Zavarise $ 42,000/ $ 46,517.75

[MG42]

Salary & Budget:


Players occupying roster spots 1-20 count against the club’s 2011 salary budget of $2,675,000, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Salary Budget Players.
Roster spots 19 and 20 are not required to be filled, and teams may spread their salary budget across only 18 Salary Budget Players. A minimum salary budget charge will be imputed against a team’s salary budget for each unfilled senior roster slot below 18.
The maximum budget charge for a single player is $335,000.*
A Designated Player counts $335,000 against the club’s salary budget, unless the player joins his club in the middle of the season, in which case his budget charge will be $167,500.

* See section entitled Allocation Money below, under Player Acquisition Mechanisms, for details on buying down a player’s budget charge.


Players occupying roster spots 21-30 do not count against the club’s salary budget, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Off-Budget Players (maximum of 10 per team).
All Generation adidas players are Off-Budget players.



Players occupying roster spots 1-24 will earn at least $42,000 in 2011.
Players occupying roster spots 25-30 will earn at least $32,600 in 2011.
Clubs may elect to leave up to two of these roster spots (25-30) vacant and use $35,000 for each empty spot as allocation money.
Clubs may sign up to two Home Grown Players to Generation adidas contracts.



1. de Guzman Julian M $ 1 ,863,996.00 $ 1,910,746.00
2. Stevanovic Alen M $ 240,000.00 $ 250,000.00
3. Peterson Jacob F $ 142,500.00 $ 150,775.00
4. Santos Maicon F $ 126,000.00 $ 126,000.00
5. Cann Adrian D $ 123,996.00 $ 132,746.00
6. Frei Stefan GK $ 100,000.00 $ 155,000.00
7. Bouchiba Elbekay M $ 92,004.00 $ 92,004.00
8. Gordon Alan F $ 96,504.00 $ 96,504.00
9. Tchani Tony M $ 90,000.00 $ 194,000.00
10. Martina Javier F $ 89,460.00 $ 96,140.75
11. Soolsma Nick M-F $ 86,004.00 $ 86,004.00
12. Sturgis Nathan D-M $ 85,000.00 $ 89,250.00
13. Yourassowsky Mikael D $ 80,004.00 $ 81,670.67
14. Eckersley Richard D $ 75,000.00 $ 90,000.00
15. Gargan Daniel M $ 70,000.00 $ 70,000.00
16. Harden Ty D $ 65,000.00 $ 73,666.67
17. Williams Dicoy D $ 50,004.00 $ 50,004.00
18. Attakora-Gyan Nana D $ 45,000.00 $ 45,000.00
19. Zavarise Gianluca M $ 42,000.00 $ 46,517.75
20. Lindsay Nicholas F $ 42,000.00 $ 43,000.00

21. Henry Doneil D $ 42,000.00 $ 43,000.00
22. Plata Joao F $ 42,000.00 $ 42,000.00
23. Omphroy Demitrius D $ 42,000.00 $ 42,000.00
24. Kocic Milos GK $ 42,000.00 $ 42,000.00
25. Gold Matt M $ 42,000.00 $ 42,000.00
26. Borman Danleigh M $ 42,000.00 $ 42,000.00
27. Cordon Oscar M $ 32,604.00 $ 32,604.00
28. Makubuya Keith F $ 32,604.00 $ 32,604.00
29. Morgan Ashtone D $ 32,604.00 $ 32,604.00
30. Stinson Matthew M $ 32,604.00 $ 32,604.00

[ag futbol]

Fairly good salary spread. Once we stop paying all those bad Mo Johnston contracts we'll have some more breathing room.

Hypothetically we'd still be under the cap at this point no?

[prizby]

based on the top 20 idea and only base salary counting against the cap including half of barrett's and DeRo's, we are approaching 2.3mil, so we are 370k-400k under the cap, but we have 30 players now, so someone will have to be released in order to make room for any new signing

[DangerRed]

Wow - Eckersley at that price is a huge grab.

I think most will agree J-Pete is overpriced.

And Stevanovic, well, even though I'm a huge fan, I'm surprised about the salary. I'm very happy he's on the squad though and thought he had a great game last night. Hopefully he stays fit and we see some great production from him going forward.

[ManUtd4ever]

Among the non-DP contracts, Peterson's salary is an eye sore. Otherwise, it's a very reasonable spread throughout the roster.

It's encouraging to note that management has enough cap space to sign 1-2 impact players during the summer transfer window, pending the release of 2 existing roster players.

[gmacpheetfc]

I'm assuming that is Eckersley's wage at burnley unless we've only had to pay a percentage same for stevanovic

I am I correct that nicholas Lindsay was de-activated or w/e since he is a long term injury, leaving us with a free roster spot? Or is that only FM rules ahahah.

[oxygenatedbrain]

Lindsay, and depending on his recovery from surgery, Bouchiba, could be SEIs, permitting replacement signings.

[rocker]

Excellent, excellent spread of salary cap.
Lots of good, cheap players, no more overpricing (Martina at 90k for example)
Frei making 150k is fair.
Stevanovic at 250k is I guess justified based on his pedigree.
All in all, a much more "average" salary spread than years past.

yeah, this roster is much more reasonably priced based on performance than in previous years. Not as many MoJo-type anonymous overpaid players. And some good value players too, like Eck.

[MG42]

I hope that is not the salary that Cann was pissed about lol

[boban]

Kenny Cooper $250,000 .. wow .. steal.

And yet we in 5 years still don't have a legit striker.

[denime]

Wow - Eckersley at that price is a huge grab.

I think most will agree J-Pete is overpriced.

And Stevanovic, well, even though I'm a huge fan, I'm surprised about the salary. I'm very happy he's on the squad though and thought he had a great game last night. Hopefully he stays fit and we see some great production from him going forward.

Stevanovic salary is 6000 Euro per week,we are covering only one part of his Inter/Torino based salary.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I hope that is not the salary that Cann was pissed about lol

it is, he wanted 175k they offered 160k, he walked away and got what he has now

[Pinkie]

Kenny Cooper $250,000 .. wow .. steal.

And yet we in 5 years still don't have a legit striker.

are you trying to say that getting him was at all a possibility

because it wasn't

[KGH]

Dropping Tchani and JDG down to $335k our current roster is $1,985,476.

We know we have some of Dero and Barretts but we also get allocation $ for not making the playoffs as well as making the Concacaf we should be in great position to pick up a DP mid year.

I also love the new home grown rule. If we develop a guy like Cordon each year that can turn into a starter our roster will be solid.

[levyashin]

excellent money management by Mariner,finally looks like somebody knows what they are doing.

[boban]

are you trying to say that getting him was at all a possibility

because it wasn't
No. I am saying we couldn't get a striker if it hit TFC mngmnt in the face.
Just funny how teams find them yet we can't find one remotely close to one.

[MG42]

No. I am saying we couldn't get a striker if it hit TFC mngmnt in the face.
Just funny how teams find them yet we can't find one remotely close to one.

Finding them isn't the problem, it's getting them to perform here.

Mista
Edson Buddle
Conor Casey
Carlos Ruiz
Jeff Cunningham
Ali Gerba

[boban]

Finding them isn't the problem, it's getting them to perform here.

Mista
Edson Buddle
Conor Casey
Carlos Ruiz
Jeff Cunningham
Ali Gerba
Mista's best days were done = wrong player
Buddle was young and needed more time = fail of mngmnt
Casey never wanted to be here.
The rest were pretty much run out of town by the fans.

[MG42]

^yeah but your statement was that they couldn't find a striker if it hit them in the face...well they have found strikers...good strikers, that for one reason or another have not worked out here.

[CretanBull]

it is, he wanted 175k they offered 160k, he walked away and got what he has now

It's not what he "wanted" its what he was promised when he left Europe to come play for Toronto.

[boban]

^yeah but your statement was that they couldn't find a striker if it hit them in the face...well they have found strikers...good strikers, that for one reason or another have not worked out here.
Nah, each - different reason for each one, was not a good striker when coming here. Their presence here only proved that - and one didn't wan to be here so I don't include that as acquiring a good striker..

[rocker]

so De Ro is up to $493,000 this year. Hope he can feed his children on that!
half a million doesn't go as far as it used to :(

[Azerban]

so De Ro is up to $493,000 this year. Hope he can feed his children on that!
half a million doesn't go as far as it used to :(

listen you know how much change falls out of your pockets as you dive over pool tables

it's a lot, ok

[CretanBull]

so De Ro is up to $493,000 this year. Hope he can feed his children on that!
half a million doesn't go as far as it used to :(

Apparently, it gets you to first place.

[Lucky Strike]

Did anyone see that Marvell Wynne is now getting over 300K? Yikes!

[Ossington Mental Youth]

It's not what he "wanted" its what he was promised when he left Europe to come play for Toronto.

well, he wanted and was promised 175 by Mo, who was no longer in the position to offer him that.

[CretanBull]

well, he wanted and was promised 175 by Mo, who was no longer in the position to offer him that.

It falls on more than just Mo, the entire front office new the situation. TFC agreed to match the salary that he was making in Europe, but couldn't fit that salary under the cap in the year that he came over so he agreed to play for less in the first year of his contract (something like $65k?) on the condition that they made up the difference in the second year of his contract so the total value of the contract would equal the money that they mutally agreed upon. Everyone knew that's what the deal was, no one thought that Cann left Europe making over $120k to play in the MLS for $65k (or whatever it was). It's BS for them to renege on that deal on the grounds that it was a deal that Mo made.

When we can't find player who are willing to play for us, when we go into training camp with 11 players - this is why. Players talk to each other and they know what's going on.

[Section 117]

Not for anything. For all of the FO's incompetence and deals that were offered why didn't any of these players get anything in writing? I know when I signed my contract at work it was revised a few times as things that were discussed weren't in the document.

I feel bad for the players that this has happen to, but wtf how stupid are they and the people who are working for them?

[CretanBull]

The league wouldn't approve this kind of deal because they would consider it a circumvention of its salary cap.

I find it hard to blame the players. In their minds they're doing what they can to help their new employer - typically that's the sort of move that makes you one of the good guys, a team player etc. And its not like they jump into these situations blindly, with a deal made in secret only the player and GM know what's what. These deals are done in the open, the player gets assurances from multiple people, they get pat on the back for doing the right thing, they're applauded for their willingness to work with the team to get a deal done etc.

[Roogsy]

Not for anything. For all of the FO's incompetence and deals that were offered why didn't any of these players get anything in writing? I know when I signed my contract at work it was revised a few times as things that were discussed weren't in the document.

I feel bad for the players that this has happen to, but wtf how stupid are they and the people who are working for them?

This argument has been seen over and over P, but what you are overlooking is that "side agreements" happen all the time in that industry, perhaps not in yours. To only blame a player who is simply doing what is common and accepted within an industry is unfair. Why is your question not followed up with "Why did TFC make those promises in the first place and what does it say about their honesty if they do and then break them?"

Nonetheless, that is in the past. Let's hope the new administration does not make the same mistakes although the things I have heard don't give me confidence that they are not making other mistakes.

[Section 117]

Roogsy I don't disagree that there are side deals I have a few that aren't in writing but with the huge disparity in salaries being the main issue sorry but money is money there would be no way I would leave that open to a handshake. To leave things on the table that are hugely significant is just stupid. If I were the player that agent would have been tossed

Also, if management gets changed why should they feel obligated to something that is potentially heresy. Player X says Mo promised me a raise of $200k. New management
says that's nice but where's the proof. Player has none and the are SOL.

[BFin]

Barrett and DeRo were our top 2 scorers last year and they totaled 600k in salary. How many player salaries are you going to have to add up to reach their production on goals and assists by the end of the year? I wouldn't be surprised if goes well past 600k. So in that respect, no, it's not better "bang for your buck". I am not sure how you are measuring this efficiency, but it will be an interesting exercise at the end of the year.

Just doing some quick math off the top of my head:

Dero - 27 games - 15 goals
Barrett - 23 games - 7 goals
Salary Total: 600k

Gordon - 5 games - 2 goals
Santos - 8 games - 2 goals
Pro-rated stats to match Barrett and Dero game totals from last year gives them about 16 goals for the year.
Salary Total: ~222k

One of Martina/Plata should fill in the final 6 goals which would put the team at an equal fotting for goals, with half of the salary. Not bad efficiency.

[CretanBull]

Also, if management gets changed why should they feel obligated to something that is potentially heresy. Player X says Mo promised me a raise of $200k. New management
says that's nice but where's the proof. Player has none and the are SOL.

The GM changed, not the entire front office - there's no (honest) doubt about the deal that was in place. They wouldn't have offered Cann $160 if they doubted that there was an agreement in place (for $170).

[werewolf]

doesn't seem to be very many mid-range players (at least just looking at TFC), most players either make under $50 000, or over $96 000, with a few in the 6 figures.

[London]

peterson and gargan need 50% pay cuts,

stevanovic needs released

[menefreghista]

I find it hard to blame the players.

Me too.

What I find so hard to believe is all the people who bend over backwards to defend our shitty FO.

Mo Johnston might be gone but the poor practices continue, just look at how they are dicking around Nana.

[London]

cant blame the players at all.

get as much as you can, who would turn down more money????

[Roogsy]

Just doing some quick math off the top of my head:

Dero - 27 games - 15 goals
Barrett - 23 games - 7 goals
Salary Total: 600k

Gordon - 5 games - 2 goals
Santos - 8 games - 2 goals
Pro-rated stats to match Barrett and Dero game totals from last year gives them about 16 goals for the year.
Salary Total: ~222k

One of Martina/Plata should fill in the final 6 goals which would put the team at an equal fotting for goals, with half of the salary. Not bad efficiency.

Prorating is nice but hardly applicable. If we had prorated DeRo's scoring rate at the beginning of last year, he was on pace to score like 30 goals. Let's do the numbers at the end of the season because injury and streakiness are a big part of a player's season.

You're also dismissing the fact that you need more players to come up with equal production. While the dollars add up, roster space is equally as important. Using up less roster space to come up with the production is a valuable asset as well. How do you gauge that?

[BFin]

Prorating is nice but hardly applicable. If we had prorated DeRo's scoring rate at the beginning of last year, he was on pace to score like 30 goals. Let's do the numbers at the end of the season because injury and streakiness are a big part of a player's season.

You're also dismissing the fact that you need more players to come up with equal production. While the dollars add up, roster space is equally as important. Using up less roster space to come up with the production is a valuable asset as well. How do you gauge that?

Pro-ration is the only potential answer to your question so if the answer to your own question is not applicable...why did you pose it?

You asked where the production WOULD come from and THUS FAR the production will come at a greatly reduced price. I'm fine with someone else making up the final 6 goals, since it would be nice to have more than 2 guys scoring on a roster of 30. You're also discounting the fact that dumping a guy like MAKABOOOOOYA would open up a roster spot without harming the team in any way.

[Section 117]

Me too.

What I find so hard to believe is all the people who bend over backwards to defend our shitty FO.

Mo Johnston might be gone but the poor practices continue, just look at how they are dicking around Nana.

So you would give Nana how much?? Cause I have heard what he is asking for which is more than what Cann is being paid and that is fucking ludicrous. People are filling his head with so much bs it is not funny. He is no where being ready for Europe. If he was offered $100k he should take it and run to the bank cause IMO he won't get offered more than that anywhere else

[Roogsy]

So you would give Nana how much?? Cause I have heard what he is asking for which is more than what Cann is being paid and that is fucking ludicrous. People are filling his head with so much bs it is not funny. He is no where being ready for Europe. If he was offered $100k he should take it and run to the bank cause IMO he won't get offered more than that anywhere else

The problem is that they are also unwilling to give him a shorter contract. Whatever the case, I don't see it as anything but a normal negotiating process. If the two sides can't agree, then so be it, that's business. There isn't always a solution and maybe we go next year without him and he is playing elsewhere. My problem comes into the fact that they seem to be using his contract limbo situation to sit him, and if that affects the team negatively, then it's a problem.

[Roogsy]

Pro-ration is the only potential answer to your question so if the answer to your own question is not applicable...why did you pose it?

Since my questions clearly stated "at the end of the year", proration is definitely not the only answer to the question. Allow me to restate:


How many player salaries are you going to have to add up to reach their production on goals and assists by the end of the year?

The question is stated in future tense and points to the end of the year as the measuring stick.


You asked where the production WOULD come from and THUS FAR the production will come at a greatly reduced price. I'm fine with someone else making up the final 6 goals, since it would be nice to have more than 2 guys scoring on a roster of 30. You're also discounting the fact that dumping a guy like MAKABOOOOOYA would open up a roster spot without harming the team in any way.

I disagree. If we have learned anything from this team it's that it manages it's roster spots inefficiently, especially considering the compact schedule of games once you add in the NCC. That is an issue of depth. You just can't "release" someone without consequences anymore for one. And second, if it takes you 4 starters to do what 2 starters were doing before, that is not more "efficient" roster usage since you only have 11 spots on the pitch, 5 and quite possibly 7 of which are almost fully dedicated to defensive assignments. Not to mention it's not apples to apples comparison. If you're going to compare the production of 4 starters now, it should be compared to the production of 4 starters in previous years.

[menefreghista]

So you would give Nana how much?? Cause I have heard what he is asking for which is more than what Cann is being paid and that is fucking ludicrous. People are filling his head with so much bs it is not funny. He is no where being ready for Europe. If he was offered $100k he should take it and run to the bank cause IMO he won't get offered more than that anywhere else

My problem is with the fact that they are freezing him out of the squad because he won't sign the contract they are offering.

That is bs. A total dick move.

[BFin]

How can you answer that question without looking at the YTD stats and pro-rating them over the course of the same number of games as the players you would like us to compare them against? Why would you ask it if no one can suitably answer the question for you with the statistics available at this present time?

My answer pointed to the end of the year as well. It showed that given the current rate of production from the club (3 multi goal scorers and Plata coming on strong) we are on pace to exceed/equal the goal totals of Barrett/DeRo with one more player, and half of the cost. Your question asked how...for 50% of the dollars and one more player helping the cause, that's how.

I honestly didn't know that "roster efficiency" was a stat, but I will try and speak to it. I understand the grind of the season. I understand that we need depth with our players for injuries. What I'm failing to understand is how having 2 goal scorers (Barrett/Dero) and one guy with 0 as opposed to 3 balanced scorers actually hurts the club? I could have expanded my stats to show the 3rd leading goal scorer on TFC last year and compare the top 3 of 2010 vs the top 3 of 2011...but I don't think that's a favourable comparison for you in this conversation.

Final point and them I'm off the thread: The goals will come. They will come cheaper, and they will be across a more balanced lineup. I'll take that over the inconsistencies of the our attacking players in previous years. Cheers.

[P-NUTZ]

players who make side deals and get burned are dumb.

i refuse to accept any excuses by "professional" soccer players.

get a good agent/lawyer, and cover your ass.
This isn't a poker table with side bets and straddles.

How elementary.

[CretanBull]

players who make side deals and get burned are dumb.

i refuse to accept any excuses by "professional" soccer players.

get a good agent/lawyer, and cover your ass.
This isn't a poker table with side bets and straddles.

How elementary.

If Cann took that route deal, he wouldn't be playing for TFC right now. The side-deal is what made it possible for him to come here.

[P-NUTZ]

great - its still stupid IMO.
thats also why he did a disappearing act in the preseason.
people in many businesses do this stuff "to get something done" and more often than not people have their bad beat stories and say they wouldn't do it again the same way.

[Roogsy]

I am quite sure no other player or manager will be making that mistake again. TFC's name is mud in transfer circles. Other teams in MLS will enjoy the benefit of the doubt.

[CretanBull]

great - its still stupid IMO.
thats also why he did a disappearing act in the preseason.
people in many businesses do this stuff "to get something done" and more often than not people have their bad beat stories and say they wouldn't do it again the same way.

I'm not a fan of Cann, so I'm not arguing that he's worth the money in question - I just think as a matter of principal he's owed it. I've said it a dozen times now, players talk to each other and these types of antics hurt us. When we're after a player and he has a few different places where he might sign and he asks around about TFC he'll hear that the FO has a history of fucking over their players and breaking promises. That player isn't going to think "well, those players were stupid to trust the manager" they're going to think "cool, thanks for letting me know - next!".

[Roogsy]

Not just that CB, when a player wants to come over to MLS, if there are more than just one club going after him and the contracts are similar, it will be the more trustworthy institution that gets the nod more often than not.

All TFC have done is make their job to bring in players all that much harder. For that, we saved ourselves 40-50k, not to mention pissing off an MVP in the process.

[P-NUTZ]

i understand and appreciate that byproduct.
but it's still childish that they dont take better responsibility with their business/career.

[CretanBull]

i understand and appreciate that byproduct.
but it's still childish that they dont take better responsibility with their business/career.

How is trusting someone childish? Its not like he could have had the stipulation put into his contract and chose not to - it wasn't possible. He was faced with a decision, stay in Europe or trust that his home town team that desparately wanted him wouldn't fuck him over. Usually we admire people when they do what Cann did.

[Roogsy]

i understand and appreciate that byproduct.
but it's still childish that they dont take better responsibility with their business/career.

Let's remember most of these guys have barely finished high school (although in MLS, there is a larger percentage of college-level educated players than elsewhere in the world). Nonetheless, these are men that have rarely benefited from higher education and their biggest asset and skill is their physique and football abilities. They rely on others to do this sort of things for them. If a European agent is unfamiliar with TFC, then this sort of things happens. Shoot...even MLS agents get burned by TFC. (Which is why they now have a very poor reputation in many circles.)

There is definitely reponsibility on the player's side but guess what, nobody else is affected by these dishonest decisions. Whatever decisions (mistakes) these players make in the negotiating process, they're definitely paying for them (and nobody else mind you) aren't they?

Usually it's lessons like these that push players into building better teams around them. But there is definitely an element of disallusionment with these players, especially when it comes down to their hometown clubs. And then we wonder why there is little loyalty from the player? Shouldn't loyalty be earned? The real question here is, why do we fans demand loyalty from these players and not expect them to become mercenaries when it's this kind of treatment they get when they leave themselves open like that? As fans, we can't expect nothing short of players becoming ruthless with clubs when they see clubs dealing with players like this, and yet we get upset at them for becoming hardline? It's an inconsistency that the player will never be able to benefit from.

[P-NUTZ]

well there are obviously many risks and outcomes from this sort of business it seems.

[DangerRed]

stevanovic needs released

You need a head exam.

[Section 117]

Actually that is really not the reason why he is sitting. This why the fans and the media think he is sitting. It has more to do with his training and actual game performance then anything else

[Section 117]

How do you know that for sure? Because it is not what I heard check my response to Roogsy. It is performance based nothing else

[Ossington Mental Youth]

How do you know that for sure? Because it is not what I heard check my response to Roogsy. It is performance based nothing else

knowing youve been a reliable source in the past ill take your word for it and it makes me feel a bit better (in a weird way as id like him to stay and id like to play well)

[Beach_Red]

Not for anything. For all of the FO's incompetence and deals that were offered why didn't any of these players get anything in writing? I know when I signed my contract at work it was revised a few times as things that were discussed weren't in the document.

I feel bad for the players that this has happen to, but wtf how stupid are they and the people who are working for them?

It depends on what's standard procedure in your industry.

[Roogsy]

Actually that is really not the reason why he is sitting. This why the fans and the media think he is sitting. It has more to do with his training and actual game performance then anything else

It will be interesting to see once they do sort out his contract how quickly he returns to the lineup. ;)

[prizby]

Pro-ration is the only potential answer to your question so if the answer to your own question is not applicable...why did you pose it?

You asked where the production WOULD come from and THUS FAR the production will come at a greatly reduced price. I'm fine with someone else making up the final 6 goals, since it would be nice to have more than 2 guys scoring on a roster of 30. You're also discounting the fact that dumping a guy like MAKABOOOOOYA would open up a roster spot without harming the team in any way.

he's a developmental roster spot, you could only give the new guy 32k/year...don't think anyone from Europe will come for that

[Chevy]

I am quite sure no other player or manager will be making that mistake again. TFC's name is mud in transfer circles. Other teams in MLS will enjoy the benefit of the doubt.

The loans of Stevanovich and Eckersley suggest otherwise.

[DangerRed]

The loans of Stevanovich and Eckersley suggest otherwise.

Those are unique, and they were made possible because of the reputations of Winter (Stevanovic) and Mariner (Eckersley) and their previous career connections. TFC's name probably played a much smaller role. Here's what I mean:

Stevanovic and Eckersley are also very similar in that their early careers were tied to some of the largest clubs in the world (Stev = Inter, Eck = Man U) but have since slid into relative obscurity and been beset by a lack of playing time.

In other words, interested buyer (TFC) used existing relationships (Winter/Mariner) to secure some interested players (Stev/Eck).

You're right that we're able to attract guys like this, and it's a good sign, but Roogsy also right -- anywhere where Mariner and Winter aren't connected, we're viewed as ridiculous. I'm willing to bet we'd have a tough time getting a loaner from another big English club, or most in Europe.

Probably could do something interesting with Bayern if Klinsmann were to step up during the summer transfer window..

[Waggy]

Those are unique, and they were made possible because of the reputations of Winter (Stevanovic) and Mariner (Eckersley) and their previous career connections. TFC's name probably played a much smaller role. Here's what I mean:

Stevanovic and Eckersley are also very similar in that their early careers were tied to some of the largest clubs in the world (Stev = Inter, Eck = Man U) but have since slid into relative obscurity and been beset by a lack of playing time.

In other words, interested buyer (TFC) used existing relationships (Winter/Mariner) to secure some interested players (Stev/Eck).

You're right that we're able to attract guys like this, and it's a good sign, but Roogsy also right -- anywhere where Mariner and Winter aren't connected, we're viewed as ridiculous. I'm willing to bet we'd have a tough time getting a loaner from another big English club, or most in Europe.

Probably could do something interesting with Bayern if Klinsmann were to step up during the summer transfer window..

So your argument is when an MLS team not named the Galaxy or Red Bulls is trying to make a transfer, their reputation is based MORE on the people working for them then the club itself? I'll try and contain my shock. TFCs reputation isn't mud in international transfer circles. TFC, like most MLS teams doesnt HAVE a reputation in international transfer circles. Real Salt Lake doesn't have a reputation in international transfer circles. That's the value of TFC hiring people like Winter and Mariner, who have reputations and connections. And the reason they were sought after and (very) well paid. I know we all love TFC but lets be realistic here, if you think a footballer in europe with no family or close friend connections here has even heard of Toronto FC you're delusional. And if your argument is their agent would warn them about coming here- then where were these agents warning people against making side deals with a sheister like Mo? I swear, every time I check a thread expecting a decent discussion I end up with a headache.

Congrats to Mariner doing a good job managing the cap, hope we can use some of the free space wisely.


Edit: Also Danger, just used your post as a jump off. Wasn't responding to you. More the general tone and comments

[Thrillos]

I actually agree with the rosters for everyone except Gargan and Sturgis. The former should be just above league minimum and the latter should not be playing the sport.

Cann I would say is a bit high, but in all fairness he was told a deal and if we factor in the 40k he earned last year and average with this year I would say its an alright return. (not sure how long his contract is at this salary though.....)

Peterson might be a bit high but I can live with his salary, I think he has been the most underrated player on the team so far this season. He has quietly gone about his business and probably been the most consistent player all season. He continues to prove he is one of the few players on the field that can put a cross to one of our own players in the box, be it from or dead ball or run of play. I would say his overall play game in and game out is above Santos so far and it is reflected that way in the salaries.

Stevanovic is 100% worth the money. He did have a horrible game at right back, but considering up until that game he was an attacking midfielder I can look the other way.

Oh and Soolsma is making too much money too I guess, but i think he will come around as the season goes on.

[ag futbol]

It depends on what's standard procedure in your industry.
Yeah I think that's a fair point.

But TFC FO doesn't appear to be doing themselves any favors in the goodwill department.

[Auzzy]

I actually agree with the rosters for everyone except Gargan and Sturgis. The former should be just above league minimum and the latter should not be playing the sport.

Cann I would say is a bit high, but in all fairness he was told a deal and if we factor in the 40k he earned last year and average with this year I would say its an alright return. (not sure how long his contract is at this salary though.....)

Peterson might be a bit high but I can live with his salary, I think he has been the most underrated player on the team so far this season. He has quietly gone about his business and probably been the most consistent player all season. He continues to prove he is one of the few players on the field that can put a cross to one of our own players in the box, be it from or dead ball or run of play. I would say his overall play game in and game out is above Santos so far and it is reflected that way in the salaries.

Stevanovic is 100% worth the money. He did have a horrible game at right back, but considering up until that game he was an attacking midfielder I can look the other way.

Oh and Soolsma is making too much money too I guess, but i think he will come around as the season goes on.

Stevanovic right back? That was Peterson.

[torontocelt]

Peterson might be a bit high but I can live with his salary, I think he has been the most underrated player on the team so far this season. He has quietly gone about his business and probably been the most consistent player all season. He continues to prove he is one of the few players on the field that can put a cross to one of our own players in the box, be it from or dead ball or run of play. I would say his overall play game in and game out is above Santos so far and it is reflected that way in the salaries.

Stevanovic is 100% worth the money. He did have a horrible game at right back, but considering up until that game he was an attacking midfielder I can look the other way.

Every game I watch Peterson feck up corner kicks and free kicks, his delivery is inconsistent to say the least. I would love to see his actual stats for this. I am also hoping that you have Peterson mixed up with Stevanovic? Stevanovic has talent for sure although it is not being used to its full capability yet, he is obviously a good player though. Peterson on the other hand, well for him to be the third highest paid player on the team is a joke. For me he is most definitely one of our weakest links and I really dont have anything positive to say about his football capabilities except he players where the manager tells him without fuss but I am sure most people would do this if they were making $140,000 a year, especially when you should probably be making $40,000 a year.

[Thrillos]

Ya my bad, the line about playing right back was supposed to be in the peterson paragraph not sure how it got down there after the stevanovic line...


Anyway I have to disagree with the peterson hate, not sure where people are getting the idea his free kicks and crossing are not good. Go back and watch the highlights of all our games so far. Majority of crosses and dead balls that had any chance of becoming a goal were off his foot.

[menefreghista]

So your argument is when an MLS team not named the Galaxy or Red Bulls is trying to make a transfer, their reputation is based MORE on the people working for them then the club itself? I'll try and contain my shock. TFCs reputation isn't mud in international transfer circles. TFC, like most MLS teams doesnt HAVE a reputation in international transfer circles. Real Salt Lake doesn't have a reputation in international transfer circles. That's the value of TFC hiring people like Winter and Mariner, who have reputations and connections. And the reason they were sought after and (very) well paid. I know we all love TFC but lets be realistic here, if you think a footballer in europe with no family or close friend connections here has even heard of Toronto FC you're delusional. And if your argument is their agent would warn them about coming here- then where were these agents warning people against making side deals with a sheister like Mo? I swear, every time I check a thread expecting a decent discussion I end up with a headache.

I think this is all fine and nice for foreign players that wouldn't know any better.

But Canadian and American players and their agents would be more in tune with the shit way our FO operates.

[DangerRed]

So your argument is when an MLS team not named the Galaxy or Red Bulls is trying to make a transfer, their reputation is based MORE on the people working for them then the club itself? I'll try and contain my shock. TFCs reputation isn't mud in international transfer circles. TFC, like most MLS teams doesnt HAVE a reputation in international transfer circles. Real Salt Lake doesn't have a reputation in international transfer circles.

I think we agree on principle that the relationships TFC FO has abroad are what's making these loan deals possible, but I think you're wrong when you say TFC doesn't have a bad rep in international transfer circles.

Any dimwit agent who gets approached about a transfer just has to google TFC or even do a casual read of a board like this one (and believe me, they do it, as it's part of basic research) before they come back to their client and say "yeah, i looked into it, and TFC's a shambles and has treated players like shit in the past. Here's what their best player had to say when he got punted off to New York (hands him an article). If you want to go to the MLS, that's not necessarily a bad idea, but you should look at some other clubs."

[ManUtd4ever]

I don't think players in North America or abroad would begrudge TFC management based on previous contractual disputes. The notion is actually quite laughable considering the fact that TFC is still in it's infancy stages as an organization.

I agree that MoJo tarnished the reputation of the club while he was at the helm but that's in the past now. Aron Winter and Paul Mariner are both well connected, respected individuals in the industry.

As for previous contractual disputes having a negative impact on the perception of TFC management, let's not forget that contractual issues are a routine part of the business in any football league around the world. In the off season, Schelotto and Buddle, two marquee players in MLS, left their respective clubs because they weren't willing to resign contracts for less than what they felt was fair market value. Does that mean that players and their agents will shun LA as a potential destination in the future? Of course not.

[Roogsy]

Not to mention nobody is mentioning the Celtic debacle. Word is, Celtic felt burned by TFC and is not happy with them. You don't think screwing with one of the biggest clubs in the UK and arguably the world doesn't help us with our rep? You don't think clubs in the lower leagues of Europe don't remind their players of the Cann situation when players are thinking of coming over? Do people think they all operate in a bubble?

This won't stop TFC from making deals. Nobody said it would. What it does do is make it harder and provide TFC with a lot less flexibility and most importantly, trust from their counterparties.

[menefreghista]

Don't forget the situations with Ent, Ornoch and Sidra as well. That was just this off season. And its not like TFC fired the guy that orchestrated these situations.

Plus the treatment Nana is getting now.

[Gazza_55]

It falls on more than just Mo, the entire front office new the situation. TFC agreed to match the salary that he was making in Europe, but couldn't fit that salary under the cap in the year that he came over so he agreed to play for less in the first year of his contract (something like $65k?) on the condition that they made up the difference in the second year of his contract so the total value of the contract would equal the money that they mutally agreed upon. Everyone knew that's what the deal was, no one thought that Cann left Europe making over $120k to play in the MLS for $65k (or whatever it was). It's BS for them to renege on that deal on the grounds that it was a deal that Mo made.

When we can't find player who are willing to play for us, when we go into training camp with 11 players - this is why. Players talk to each other and they know what's going on.

This is the second post about Cann that I have an issue with. Adrian Cann was cut by Esbjerg and was on trial with an English League Two side in 2010. So he was making 0 dollars in Europe before coming to TFC.

I hate Mo as much as the next guy but Cann's choice was a) Out of contract trialling with Burton Albion who are currently 19th in League Two
b) Playing with TFC

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Don't forget the situations with Ent, Ornoch and Sidra as well. That was just this off season. And its not like TFC fired the guy that orchestrated these situations.

Plus the treatment Nana is getting now.

once again those were players that were called on by Mo, given a chance then said no thanks
As for Attakora, he hasnt had the best season so far, id like to see him stick around but not based on sentimentality so much as he works well within the system

[menefreghista]

once again those were players that were called on by Mo, given a chance then said no thanks
As for Attakora, he hasnt had the best season so far, id like to see him stick around but not based on sentimentality so much as he works well within the system

Only Ent would have been from the Mo days. But it was the most recent off season that all three got screwed by TFC.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

by our current FO tho? or by Cochrane?
id be shocked if Mariner/Winter invited them over then told em to pack their bags

[menefreghista]

by our current FO tho? or by Cochrane?
id be shocked if Mariner/Winter invited them over then told em to pack their bags

Hiring new guys doesn't automatically erase a previously poor reputation. Especially when it appears they still don't handle the player contract negotations well.

[v00d00daddy]

Hiring new guys doesn't automatically erase a previously poor reputation. Especially when it appears they still don't handle the player contract negotations well.

What evidence is there that Winter and Mariner don't handle contract situations well?

As far as I can see contracts are now dependant on performance, suitability to the squad and whether or not a player is a model team player.

That's how it should be.

Look at the martina situation. He's a Winter/Mariner guy and Winter hasnt liked what he's seen recently. Result: he's in a suit last Saturday.

These guys are not afraid to hold players accountable. Contracts are earned now.

No more about who your agent is or who you're friendly with within the organization.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Hiring new guys doesn't automatically erase a previously poor reputation. Especially when it appears they still don't handle the player contract negotations well.

i definitely agree it doesnt erase the previous probs of the previous FO, i do think (even tho these 3 separate incidents happened) we are headed in the right direction (although time will tell)

[smtavare]

What a ripp-off on Peterson's contract, 3rd highest paid player on the team.

Makes me hate him even more:picard:

[Yohan]

Bargains
CHI
-Diego Chavez F $45,000.00 $45,000.00
-Gaston Puerari F $50,000.00 $50,000.00

COL
-Omar Cummings F $80,438.00 $89,188.00

DAL
-Fabian Castillo F $42,000.00 $42,000.00
-Brek Shea M-D $100,000.00 $133,000.00
-Omar Bravo F $120,000.00 $170,000.00

LA
-AJ DeLaGarza D $ 55,110.00 $ 55,110.00

NY
-Juan Agudelo F $55,000.00 $85,000.00
-Joel Lindpere M $90,000.00 $125,000.00
-Tim Ream D $55,125.00 $ 62,625.00

PHI
-Keon Daniel M $42,000.00 $46,410.00

SEA
-Jhon Kennedy Hurtado $135,000.00 $136,000.00
-Mauro Rosales M $42,000.00 $42,000.00

SJ
-Brandon MacDonald M-D $45,000.00 $45,000.00

VAN
-Terry Dunfield M $65,000.00 $65,000.00
-Russell Teibert M $50,004.00 $ 55,604.00

Also, who came up with that rumour that Barrett was getting paid to 300k again? lol

[menefreghista]

Also, who came up with that rumour that Barrett was getting paid to 300k again? lol

Wouldn't surprise me if it was misleading info to make people feel better about the trade.

[torontocelt]

Ya my bad, the line about playing right back was supposed to be in the peterson paragraph not sure how it got down there after the stevanovic line...


Anyway I have to disagree with the peterson hate, not sure where people are getting the idea his free kicks and crossing are not good. Go back and watch the highlights of all our games so far. Majority of crosses and dead balls that had any chance of becoming a goal were off his foot.

This is possibly because he takes all of the free kicks and all of the corners pretty much. The reason I knoow he is inconsistant at deadball delivery is I think he is utter cack and as such I scrutinize his efforts. I am not including his away form though just that which I see at BMO. His delvery could be decent but he regularly fails to beat the first man which is a major problem. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion but I really do not rate Peterson at all.

[Chevy]

so De Ro is up to $493,000 this year. Hope he can feed his children on that!
half a million doesn't go as far as it used to :(

No worries, we all know there's an unnamed 'mystery club' lurking in the bushes just dying to splash out a million bucks a year for him. :)

[KGH]

Wow...Just crunched Van's Numbers. They weren't afraid to spend coming into the league and still gives them room to bring in another DP (or 2) mid year depending on how much allocation $$$ they were given.

Total payroll -> $3,570,853
Salary Cap hit -> $2,488,714

[CretanBull]

This is the second post about Cann that I have an issue with. Adrian Cann was cut by Esbjerg and was on trial with an English League Two side in 2010. So he was making 0 dollars in Europe before coming to TFC.

I hate Mo as much as the next guy but Cann's choice was a) Out of contract trialling with Burton Albion who are currently 19th in League Two
b) Playing with TFC

None of that changes the agreement that he had in place with TFC - which is what we're talking about.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

None of that changes the agreement that he had in place with TFC - which is what we're talking about.

a deal he had in place with Mo, who was fired, therefore the deal didnt exist any more.

im outta here, dunno why i bothered to post the above comment i know this arguments gonna go in circles with noone being convinced otherwise

[menefreghista]

a deal he had in place with Mo, who was fired, therefore the deal didnt exist any more.

im outta here, dunno why i bothered to post the above comment i know this arguments gonna go in circles with noone being convinced otherwise

Earl Cochrane and Paul Beirne are still with the club....

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Earl Cochrane and Paul Beirne are still with the club....

yep, Cochrane def being a prob re contracts but hes not in power to make those moves any more and wasnt at the time that Winter and Mariner took over, PB wasnt ever in that position unless im completely mistaken

[ginkster88]

I thought league minimum was $40k?

I can't imagine being a professional athlete making $32K/year in LA.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

guess i was lying to myself when i said it was gonna be the last post in this thread on this topic

[menefreghista]

yep, Cochrane def being a prob re contracts but hes not in power to make those moves any more and wasnt at the time that Winter and Mariner took over, PB wasnt ever in that position unless im completely mistaken

Paul Beirne is very hands on.

The point being there are people at TFC still around that know about the promises made to Cann.

We can't just brush them off because we have new guys in charge of the player acquisitions.

[CretanBull]

a deal he had in place with Mo, who was fired, therefore the deal didnt exist any more.

im outta here, dunno why i bothered to post the above comment i know this arguments gonna go in circles with noone being convinced otherwise

Agreed on the later point, but if TFC's approach was "sorry, that alledged deal was with Mo, we're not calling you a liar but we have no proof of it so we can't honour it" then why did they offer him $160k ($10k short of what the deal was for)? That action alone suggest that they knew of the deal. Like I said earlier, its not like the deal was worked out in secrecy between Cann and Mo - it's something that everyone at the club was aware of.

Nobody at the club thought that Cann came to TFC for the $60k that he was paid last year, everyone understood he took a reduced salary to get under the cap with the understanding that he'd get a huge raise in the 2nd year of his contract so that his effective contract averaged over the two years would total what they agreed upon.

Its simply not credible for the team to back out of that deal and claim that the deal was with Mo, not the team. The current FO might feel justified in taking that position, but its a position that has hurt the club's (already battered) reputation.

[Yohan]

I thought league minimum was $40k?

I can't imagine being a professional athlete making $32K/year in LA.
developmental contracts make 32k min.

I think it was in the Beckham Experiment and it talked about couple of LA players (incl Gordon?) sharing rooms and stuff... Because living on min league wage sucks

[bgnewf]

Salary Cap 101- What TFC Fans Need To Know

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/05/salary-cap-101/

The MLS Players Union has released 2011 player salaries. I take the opportunity to take both a look at the raw numbers & the surprisingly good shape TFC finds itself in when it comes to managing the MLS Salary Cap.

[Thrillos]

Earl Cochrane and Paul Beirne are still with the club....


And thats the major problem, I'm amazed those two are still here. Paul Beirne especially since his horrendous ticket pricing is why ticket sales are in such a cluster fuck right now.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

is that his doing personally or is it a board decision?
im not familiar with the innerworkings of MLSE and im not about to start throwing out punches because we have a name available to us

[Thrillos]

is that his doing personally or is it a board decision?
im not familiar with the innerworkings of MLSE and im not about to start throwing out punches because we have a name available to us


It was his decision to do it, whether he needed board approval or not I don't know. either way if he did need approval MLSE isn't going to turn down more money if they are told they are going to make it. But it was his decision to up the prices each and every year.

[Kaz]

I rarely do this but I'm going to repost this from the news section concerning overall team salaries. I'm not an expert but I find it interesting.

What I find interesting about the article on player salary, is that the average salary on Colorado, one of the lowest average salaries in the league, included 10 players making more then $130,000. Toronto has 6 players making more then 130k we have 14 making more then 80 to 13 on Colorado.

RSL which has a lower salary value then us. has 12 players making more then 130k

Our average salary if you toss out JDG is only 90k.

What one can get from this, is getting a strong core team and keeping them together for a while will be more likely to build a winning team then buying expensive players.

New York has 14 players over 100k 9 of which are over 150k and 5 of those over 200k. (if you remove the two DPs and DeRo average club salary for the remaining 27 players is only averaged at 100k)

The top teams in the league have a large number of skilled players, TFC is using large parts of it's cap to pay players on other teams. I feel bad for Winter, and have a much better understanding of the issues. TFC is near last with one of the lowest paid rosters.

Chicago one of the highest "average salaries" like TFC has 16 players making 80k or more, but only 8 making more then 130k+ (average w/o DP 89k)

Thus TFC needs to use this year to help build that core group of 130k plus starters. and a good core with a salary range of about 115-140 without a DP or about 200+ with a DP.

[ginkster88]

developmental contracts make 32k min.

I think it was in the Beckham Experiment and it talked about couple of LA players (incl Gordon?) sharing rooms and stuff... Because living on min league wage sucks

I don't like to talk about player wages relative to normal people wages because I never like to assume a level of income for these boards but... no matter which way you slice it, $40K/year with no upside is slim, especially in cities like Toronto, Vancouver and LA.

Even though these guys are mostly young and without spouses or families those bills can pile up fast (believe me)! It has to be tough for these guys just hanging onto a roster spot/their careers.

[iansmcl]

Can someone explain to me (if it's been explained before, sorry I've missed it): how are there three DPs, KC's Omar Bravo; DAL's Fabian Castillo; and Timbers' Diego Chara that make far less than the DP cap hit of $335 000?

[Yohan]

Can someone explain to me (if it's been explained before, sorry I've missed it): how are there three DPs, KC's Omar Bravo; DAL's Fabian Castillo; and Timbers' Diego Chara that make far less than the DP cap hit of $335 000?
they were acquired with transfer fee that put them over 335k mark

[boban]

And thats the major problem, I'm amazed those two are still here. Paul Beirne especially since his horrendous ticket pricing is why ticket sales are in such a cluster fuck right now.
You honestly blame Paul for that?
The board makes the rules on that. It's just up to Paul to carry it out.
If not, no job.

[Thrillos]

You honestly blame Paul for that?
The board makes the rules on that. It's just up to Paul to carry it out.
If not, no job.

Yes I do, because I know it was him. How do you think you know it wasn't him......

[ExiledRed]

You honestly blame Paul for that?
The board makes the rules on that. It's just up to Paul to carry it out.
If not, no job.

Yeah, for all the problems facing this team and all the faults of ownership, it really is grating to see the way Paul Bierne's name gets invoked as the source of the problem and easy scapegoat.

I miss Paul on these boards, I find it regrettable that the relationship broke down to the point that its probably not a good idea for him to post on here.

Paul is not MLSE, Paul is Paul, he's a great guy and I hope he has a thick skin, because it really was better when he was on our side and working with us to improve the atmosphere, and not the obvious scapegoat for every single damn thing from surly security spitting on flags to Ty Harden being useless.

[ExiledRed]

Yes I do, because I know it was him. How do you think you know it wasn't him......

Just to be the devils advocate and to turn that on its head, how do you think you know it was him?

I think most people would find it hard to believe that Paul comes up with the prices all by himself and MLSE just do what he says.

[ManUtd4ever]

I have no insider knowledge, but I would postulate that Tom Anselmi and Paul Bierne are involved in submitting a proposal to the MLSE board of governors based on market census data gathered to determine the annual TFC ticket pricing structure.

In other words, everyone involved in the process is at fault to a certain extent regarding the current exorbitant prices at BMO Field and the ludicrous increases we have been subjected to for the first four years.

[BFin]

I love how he is completely dismissing the fact that TFC has a finance department that works on these things. Do you think ticket pricing is just random % increases on an annual basis? I'm sure the finance team was given the mandate to determine what ticket prices would need to be to reach a certain level of profit and a business case was built.

There is no way that Paul simply sits there and says "Well tickets are going to cost this much this year because I like the number 9!"...that's foolish.

[Beach_Red]

I have no insider knowledge, but I would postulate that Tom Anselmi and Paul Bierne are involved in submitting a proposal to the MLSE board of governors based on market census data gathered to determine the annual TFC ticket pricing structure.

In other words, everyone involved in the process is at fault to a certain extent regarding the current exorbitant prices at BMO Field and the ludicrous increases we have been subjected to for the first four years.


Would those tickets seem so expensive if the team was in first place and playing in the CCL final?

[Roogsy]

I love how he is completely dismissing the fact that TFC has a finance department that works on these things. Do you think ticket pricing is just random % increases on an annual basis? I'm sure the finance team was given the mandate to determine what ticket prices would need to be to reach a certain level of profit and a business case was built.

There is no way that Paul simply sits there and says "Well tickets are going to cost this much this year because I like the number 9!"...that's foolish.

If there is anything we have learned it's that TFC are poor at projections and gauging sentiment and popularity. They got caught by surprise by the popularity of TFC and how well they filled the stadium, got greedy and then got caught by surprise by the backlash over price hikes that was trying to take advantage of that popularity. Reaching profit targets has to take into consideration all aspects of the business and one important aspects of it is to not make erroneous assumptions, something TFC is prone to do. So while you are right that Paul doesn't go off and say "Hey, I am going to charge a million bazillion dollars for a small beer" he (or his staff) have been proven to be unable to properly gauge stress points in their consumer demand.

[ManUtd4ever]

Would those tickets seem so expensive if the team was in first place and playing in the CCL final?

As for me personally, no. I sit in a reasonably priced supporters section.

As for the rest of the stadium, I'll quote Stone Cold Steve Austin...

"HELL YEAH!"

[ensco]

Pricing belongs to Anselmi. Beirne works for Anselmi. Not much point focusing on it beyond that. I doubt there's a "board" for TFC anyway - it's a small subsidiary. Anselmi probably has to check with the CEO on certain decisions, pricing is probably one. I never believed Anselmi when he said he needed "board approval" on the JDG signing, that was ridiculous, for MLSE corporate the signing of a $5 million player contract isn't material.

If Anselmi and Beirne weren't there, I believe whoever was there, would have come to similar decisions as they did. It's pretty similar to what happened with Marlies pricing. The problem is way bigger than any individual.

[iansmcl]

they were acquired with transfer fee that put them over 335k mark

Ahh, it was so obvious. Thanks.

[Roogsy]

Pricing belongs to Anselmi. Beirne works for Anselmi. Not much point focusing on it beyond that. I doubt there's a "board" for TFC anyway - it's a small subsidiary. Anselmi probably has to check with the CEO on certain decisions, pricing is probably one. I never believed Anselmi when he said he needed "board approval" on the JDG signing, that was ridiculous, for MLSE corporate the signing of a $5 million player contract isn't material.

If Anselmi and Beirne weren't there, I believe whoever was there, would have come to similar decisions as they did. It's pretty similar to what happened with Marlies pricing. The problem is way bigger than any individual.


I have to agree with this.

[mastermixer]

If there is anything we have learned it's that TFC are poor at projections and gauging sentiment and popularity. They got caught by surprise by the popularity of TFC and how well they filled the stadium, got greedy and then got caught by surprise by the backlash over price hikes that was trying to take advantage of that popularity. Reaching profit targets has to take into consideration all aspects of the business and one important aspects of it is to not make erroneous assumptions, something TFC is prone to do. So while you are right that Paul doesn't go off and say "Hey, I am going to charge a million bazillion dollars for a small beer" he (or his staff) have been proven to be unable to properly gauge stress points in their consumer demand.

I seriously believe the only reason the 1st season was sold out was because David Beckham attached his pretty face to MLS at the same time as our tickets went on sale. I remember right before the beckham hoopla we only had about 8000-10000 season seats sold, right after there was a HUGE surge. However it was the SG's that helped keep the fans coming back year after year.

[Roogsy]

I seriously believe the only reason the 1st season was sold out was because David Beckham attached his pretty face to MLS at the same time as our tickets went on sale. I remember right before the beckham hoopla we only had about 8000-10000 season seats sold, right after there was a HUGE surge. However it was the SG's that helped keep the fans coming back year after year.

Absolutely. And try 7,000, not even 8,000. I remember it like it was yesterday. Within days the tickets had surged to over 11,000.

You're right, this wasn't an MLSE success story, this was a MLS/soccer in North America success story and MLSE simply benefited. I know people who bought simply because their wives wanted to see Beckham. It had nothing to do with TFC or some brilliance by MLSE.

[MG42]

Absolutely. And try 7,000, not even 8,000. I remember it like it was yesterday. Within days the tickets had surged to over 11,000.

You're right, this wasn't an MLSE success story, this was a MLS/soccer in North America success story and MLSE simply benefited. I know people who bought simply because their wives wanted to see Beckham. It had nothing to do with TFC or some brilliance by MLSE.


Ummmmm, I won the Doug Hamilton Executive of the Year Award in 2007 mmmmkay let's not forget that

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg

[ExiledRed]

What the Beckham effect did, was elevate the pereption of the league product to the point that people were able to imagine a soccer team that wasnt something like the Lynx, or even Toronto Croatia.

People didnt buy tickets to see Beckham, they bought them because Beckham's involvement meant that the soccer would be at a level that was higher than was expected. Beckham's involvement also increased base awareness of the team, because MLSE werent marketing it much at all.

[Thrillos]

I don't care if some don't believe me, I put it out there for the people that have seen the stuff I have called in the past that ended up being true.

Paul is the business operations, it was his call to up the prices, in which he proposes to Anselmi. Anselmi just goes with what Paul says because Paul is the guy that was brought in to make these decisions.

Anselmi's job is to oversee everything, so basically congratulate when people below him do good and ream out and/or fire when they fuck up.

The only reason Paul was on these boards previously was to get an idea of how much people would pay. He is sitting on his computer making it sound like he is on here to help us, when he is just deciding how much he can increase prices for that given year.

[BFin]

Actually if you have ever worked in a large corporation before you would know that the objectives are trickled down from the senior leadership teams. After these objectives are set tactics are created to meet these objectives.

In this case the Executives at MLSE (TFC specific) would state we want to increase revenues. How do you increase revenues at a sold-out match? Up ticket prices, up concessions, up merch prices. Unless you could add 5000 new seats for free there is nothing that the business operations team could do to satisfy the exec, without raising prices.

I doubt this was Paul's initiative, and I doubt you have any inside information that no one else does with respect to the business operations of MLSE.

[Thrillos]

Actually if you have ever worked in a large corporation before you would know that the objectives are trickled down from the senior leadership teams. After these objectives are set tactics are created to meet these objectives.

In this case the Executives at MLSE (TFC specific) would state we want to increase revenues. How do you increase revenues at a sold-out match? Up ticket prices, up concessions, up merch prices. Unless you could add 5000 new seats for free there is nothing that the business operations team could do to satisfy the exec, without raising prices.

I doubt this was Paul's initiative, and I doubt you have any inside information that no one else does with respect to the business operations of MLSE.

Your entitled to your own opinion, but I know some on here have seen the stuff that I called well ahead anyone else knew about such things.

I'm glad you know how "most" corporations work, but that doesn't mean you know how MLSE works now does it.....

[rocker]

^ So why would Paul increases prices? What's the incentive for him personally to do that? Is his salary tied to increases? Promotion?

otherwise, lower employees don't raise prices unless higherups tell them to.

[Yohan]

^ So why would Paul increases prices? What's the incentive for him personally to do that? Is his salary tied to increases? Promotion?

otherwise, lower employees don't raise prices unless higherups tell them to.
you forgot Paul Beirne may be as evil as Darth Vader;)

[Thrillos]

^ So why would Paul increases prices? What's the incentive for him personally to do that? Is his salary tied to increases? Promotion?

otherwise, lower employees don't raise prices unless higherups tell them to.

How the hell would I know whats going through his head???

[ensco]

^ So why would Paul increases prices? What's the incentive for him personally to do that? Is his salary tied to increases? Promotion?

otherwise, lower employees don't raise prices unless higherups tell them to.

Is that a serious question?

Because he wants a raise, or a promotion, or a big new job, or to be noticed as a comer.

[BFin]

How the hell would I know whats going through his head???
You seem to know everything else about his profession and organization.

Can't you call what's going on in his head well before it happens as well?

[Roogsy]

Um yeah....Thrillos has been calling stuff spot on for some time now. He has never claimed to know everything about the organization, but the info he has brought has been pretty solid. So your doubting him only comes across as insisting on taking the MLSE side because you want to not because there is any reason to doubt Thrillos. It's no wonder people have stopped feeding info to this board, even the guys with the most solid reps catch grief from people who know little about what is going on.

[MG42]

Your entitled to your own opinion, but I know some on here have seen the stuff that I called well ahead anyone else knew about such things.

I'm glad you know how "most" corporations work, but that doesn't mean you know how MLSE works now does it.....

this is true

[MG42]

Um yeah....Thrillos has been calling stuff spot on for some time now. He has never claimed to know everything about the organization, but the info he has brought has been pretty solid. So your doubting him only comes across as insisting on taking the MLSE side because you want to not because there is any reason to doubt Thrillos. It's no wonder people have stopped feeding info to this board, even the guys with the most solid reps catch grief from people who know little about what is going on.

this is also true

[BFin]

There has been no info to support his case at all, so forgive me for doubting that he knows what the objectives and responsibilities of Paul Beirne's day to day are, and forgive me for assuming that MLSE is run from the top down, like every other major corporation in the world. Last time I checked the janitor at Rogers wasn't determining rate increases.

I don't think anyone cares about "sources" or "feeding info" but you. The rest of us are just happy to go to games, have fun, and come on here to discuss the reuslts. Everything doesn't have to be a conspiracy, everything doesn't have to be someones fault. Paul has stated in the past that he is a soccer fan and a TFC supporter, so I don't think it's right to come on here and rip the man for doing absolutely nothing but what is asked of him by the corporation he works for.

[Roogsy]

For a guy who only cares about results and having fun, you spend an awful lot of time in threads that have nothing to do with the things you claim you are only interested in.

The funny thing is that when you look at your position, it's incredible that you don't see the gaps in logic. The team is screwed up, can't win games to save their life but not everything is someones "fault". Really? So it's just bad luck that TFC is built poorly? It's just bad luck that TFC has more personnel and contract problems than any other team in MLS? It's just bad luck that we have some of the highest prices in the league for some of the worst performance?

I guess it is just bad luck. Nobody can possibly be responsible for these things.

[Thrillos]

There has been no info to support his case at all, so forgive me for doubting that he knows what the objectives and responsibilities of Paul Beirne's day to day are, and forgive me for assuming that MLSE is run from the top down, like every other major corporation in the world. Last time I checked the janitor at Rogers wasn't determining rate increases.

I don't think anyone cares about "sources" or "feeding info" but you. The rest of us are just happy to go to games, have fun, and come on here to discuss the reuslts. Everything doesn't have to be a conspiracy, everything doesn't have to be someones fault. Paul has stated in the past that he is a soccer fan and a TFC supporter, so I don't think it's right to come on here and rip the man for doing absolutely nothing but what is asked of him by the corporation he works for.

Of course there is going to be no info to support my case, if there was everyone would know about.... Like I always said i'm not here to prove it to people who don't want to believe it for whatever reasoning they have.

I want the people that love going to games as much as I do and are pissed about how poorly this club has been run and how we have been gouged in our wallets. I want these people to know how fucked up it is because if the roles were reversed and someone else knew I would want them to spread the info.

[menefreghista]

Um yeah....Thrillos has been calling stuff spot on for some time now. He has never claimed to know everything about the organization, but the info he has brought has been pretty solid. So your doubting him only comes across as insisting on taking the MLSE side because you want to not because there is any reason to doubt Thrillos. It's no wonder people have stopped feeding info to this board, even the guys with the most solid reps catch grief from people who know little about what is going on.

I really hope these insiders don't stop posting here. Its one of the main reasons I joined the forum.

Besides the media covering TFC sucks so bad that if wasn't for places like this we would have no idea what was really going on at the club. We would just get more PR level fluff pieces.

[Whoop]

Isn't Paul a de-facto exec with the team? Doesn't he essentially run the business side of TFC?

I think in that case he would be the guy calling the shots on any business decisions, no?

[Thrillos]

Isn't Paul a de-facto exec with the team? Doesn't he essentially run the business side of TFC?

I think in that case he would be the guy calling the shots on any business decisions, no?

Yes, he is the head of business operations, so it literally is his call on any money matters with the team.

Although up until Winter and Mariner came in, he liked to get involved with the football side far too much.

[MG42]

Isn't Paul a de-facto exec with the team? Doesn't he essentially run the business side of TFC?

I think in that case he would be the guy calling the shots on any business decisions, no?

yeah pretty much.


// Paul Beirne - Senior Director - Business Operations

Seeing how he is the senior director of BO he is at least part of the "senior leadership team" that BFin so rudely speaks of.


Actually if you have ever worked in a large corporation before you would know that the objectives are trickled down from the senior leadership teams. After these objectives are set tactics are created to meet these objectives.

[Roogsy]

Yes, he is the head of business operations, so it literally is his call on any money matters with the team.

Although up until Winter and Mariner came in, he liked to get involved with the football side far too much.


No, no, he's just the team receptionist. He passes on messages from up top on MLSE's ivory tower.

[Thrillos]

No, no, he's just the team receptionist. He passes on messages from up top on MLSE's ivory tower.

hahaha now it all makes sense....

[boban]

Pricing belongs to Anselmi. Beirne works for Anselmi. Not much point focusing on it beyond that. I doubt there's a "board" for TFC anyway - it's a small subsidiary. Anselmi probably has to check with the CEO on certain decisions, pricing is probably one. I never believed Anselmi when he said he needed "board approval" on the JDG signing, that was ridiculous, for MLSE corporate the signing of a $5 million player contract isn't material.

If Anselmi and Beirne weren't there, I believe whoever was there, would have come to similar decisions as they did. It's pretty similar to what happened with Marlies pricing. The problem is way bigger than any individual.
This. Bang on.
I would like to clarify on my earlier post about the board making the rules. They may not have been explicit on the pricing scheme, but they have created a culture on minimum returns and expectations. It's up to the minions (and Paul is one of them) to carry it out. Paul may be the arhictect of the exact pricing, but he knows who is looking over his shoulder to make sure it fits within the grand scheme MLSE has. So he realy doesn't have much control. And seriously, last year whem Anselmi was talking about bringing ticket prices in line with other sports entertainment in the city, it was clear its an MLSE, not TFC opperendi.

[Beach_Red]

This. Bang on.
I would like to clarify on my earlier post about the board making the rules. They may not have been explicit on the pricing scheme, but they have created a culture on minimum returns and expectations. It's up to the minions (and Paul is one of them) to carry it out. Paul may be the arhictect of the exact pricing, but he knows who is looking over his shoulder to make sure it fits within the grand scheme MLSE has. So he realy doesn't have much control. And seriously, last year whem Anselmi was talking about bringing ticket prices in line with other sports entertainment in the city, it was clear its an MLSE, not TFC opperendi.


This certainly seems to be the management style, not giving explicit enough direction so employees are constantly trying to please their bosses but are always a little unsure. It's not unique to MLSE, of course.