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__wowza
05-02-2011, 09:30 AM
God, it's been awhile since we've had one of these bad boys!! Taken from DichioTFC's concept, lemme ask you, how do you feel about how Prek- errr, Winter's done so far?

Just some guidelines to those who are on the fence:


Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.


For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in April:



T/T/T/L/T/W/L: 4 points out of a possible 18
(red text denotes NCC fixture)



Toronto FC v Chivas USA
Apr 02: Tie 1 - 1

Earthquakes v Toronto FC
Apr 09: Tie 1 - 1

Toronto FC v LA Galaxy
Apr 13: Tie 0 - 0

Toronto FC v D.C. United
Apr 16: Loss 0 - 3

Toronto FC v Crew
Apr 23: Tie 1 - 1

FC Edmonton v Toronto FC
Apr 30: Win 0 - 3Sounders v Toronto FC

gmacpheetfc
05-02-2011, 09:41 AM
.........what were your expectations this season figure it out!

__wowza
05-02-2011, 09:59 AM
whaaa?

Darlofletch
05-02-2011, 10:06 AM
as overall technical director, I think he's a good choice to have in charge of the team and the academy and all that.

as head coach, I'm still on the fence about that really. He doesn't have a good enough squad, and it seems he's trying to get them to play a style that they're not good enough for. Hopefully they can learn it and improve quickly and the growing pains will be worth it. not entirely convinced about that last sentence though.

I went with yes. we'll see.

Dreadlocks
05-02-2011, 10:14 AM
I'm mixed on him to date. He has brought in some useful players and appeared to have control over the locker room but on the other side, I really question some his squad selections and the appointment of Santos as captain.

Roogsy
05-02-2011, 10:15 AM
as overall technical director, I think he's a good choice to have in charge of the team and the academy and all that.

as head coach, I'm still on the fence about that really. He doesn't have a good enough squad, and it seems he's trying to get them to play a style that they're not good enough for. Hopefully they can learn it and improve quickly and the growing pains will be worth it. not entirely convinced about that last sentence though.

I went with yes. we'll see.

This.

I am sort of on the fence with Winter on the Head Coach position. He continues to baffle me with some of the choices he makes and I just don't get the impression he appreciates the skill level and football intelligence of his players.

Because of these points, I went with no, simply based on results.

lazlo_80
05-02-2011, 10:51 AM
This guy needs some leeway. He's had a month and a half with this team. Implementing a new system so completely different from Preki ball, with the team he inherited is going to take a while.

Look how much talent Preki got rid of in his time here. This is a big rebuilding.

Roogsy
05-02-2011, 10:54 AM
Not that I am saying it is enough time, far from it. but he has actually had 4 months as he was hired at the beginning of January. He started training camp in February so you can reasonably shorten it to 3 months. But saying he has had a month and a half is not accurate in any way.

Detroit_TFC
05-02-2011, 11:08 AM
I was puzzled by Winter's roster and subs in Seattle but that's not enough to put in the negative for me.

His ability to rally the team and to get the players to outperform their limited abilities is on the watch list now though.

s2cazz
05-02-2011, 11:11 AM
Winter is doing a good job. What more do you expect? You play the cards you are dealt.

I know we have already lived through one 5 year plan but we need to give the man more time at the helm before we can even truly evaluate his performance. So far I'd say I trust him and his judgement miles ahead of the last dipshit they had.

You need to build a house before you can move in, and so far we have just broke ground as far as I'm concerned. We knew going in that this season would be a write-off.

kaos197O
05-02-2011, 11:13 AM
I'm mixed on him to date. He has brought in some useful players and appeared to have control over the locker room but on the other side, I really question some his squad selections and the appointment of Santos as captain.
I question whether or no he really has control of the locker room. He repeatedly says that the players are not playing the way they were told to. Why is that? I also don't like the fact that he has taken NO ownership in the teams results. Always blames the team and sometimes throws players under the bus. I could go on but for now I have to vote NO!

Roogsy
05-02-2011, 11:18 AM
So far, he has over 80% approval. That's pretty good considering the results. What I hope to see from this the results of this poll is the cessation of complaints that somehow Winter is already being run out of town and that there are calls for his ouster. I have no idea where people get these ideas and these types of polls will hopefully put that nonsense to rest.

__wowza
05-02-2011, 11:24 AM
He repeatedly says that the players are not playing the way they were told to. Why is that? I also don't like the fact that he has taken NO ownership in the teams results.

players are people, just like the rest of us. they're prone to doubts and pressure. they can go down a goal, miss a pass or blow marking they're prone to think may think "well, this isn't working, what if i try this instead?". it's the X factor that a lot of people often overlook.

__wowza
05-02-2011, 11:34 AM
as for winter himself, it's an interesting comparison gauging our response to preki's last year during the month of april: L/W/L/W/W/L (all three losses sustained on the road.

i think people are willing to give winter the benefit of the doubt when it comes to adapting to the MLS style of play, but there are dozens of other outside factors contributing to why preki would receive such a low rating (blowing up the roster, jimmy b retiring, preki-ball, etc).

i really do think that it will take winter longer to adapt to the league than most people will ever admit, but i do feel that some of the moves the organization has made under him will make this team better. i honestly didn't expect to make the playoffs this year, nor did i think that games like the one against seattle weren't going to happen.


don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i'm happy with the way this teams performed, but i'd be a hell of a lot more upset if i could say "i see this happening for the next 2 or 3 years".

flatpicker
05-02-2011, 11:52 AM
I'm still glad that Winter is here.
It's good to have someone in charge who has a specific vision of how he wants to run the club.
Yes, it's been a rough start to the season... I think the team is not playing to their potential.
(not that I necessarily think the team is as good as some other MLS clubs).

I'm hoping that some other pieces can be added to our roster that will fit the system and improve things.
As well as the existing players getting better at the system Winter has brought to Toronto.

Heathen
05-02-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm still glad that Winter is here.
It's good to have someone in charge who has a specific vision of how he wants to run the club.
Yes, it's been a rough start to the season... I think the team is not playing to their potential.
(not that I necessarily think the team is as good as some other MLS clubs).

I'm hoping that some other pieces can be added to our roster that will fit the system and improve things.
As well as the existing players getting better at the system Winter has brought to Toronto.

Everyone keeps going on about his vision, you know what I'd like a little less vision and a bit more in-game coaching and tactics

flatpicker
05-02-2011, 12:05 PM
^ I'm not saying he's perfect... both he and the players have some learning to do.

Let's just hope they learn fast!

dow117
05-02-2011, 12:12 PM
Bottom line is; we need better players. Its hard to say where the issues are coz nothing is constant ... 6 coaches / 100+ players through the door. I think it was mentioned that Frei is the only player in Edmonton that was on the last Nutrilite championship game .... until we stabilize and acquire solid players that are comfortable on the ball ; the jury is out and success is still a dream away !

Yohan
05-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Everyone keeps going on about his vision, you know what I'd like a little less vision and a bit more in-game coaching and tactics
Winter has shown nothing much about adapting. Probably the biggest reason why TFC is losing right now is that TFC is so damn predictable

2mil4dero+santo
05-02-2011, 12:23 PM
Another coaching FAIL. Bring us a real first team coach MLSE!!! Bring back Carver or Preki!!!!

ManUtd4ever
05-02-2011, 12:29 PM
I approve of the philosophy that Winter and DeClerk are trying to implement at the grass roots level of the Academy all the way through to the first team. Hopefully, that systemic approach will pay dividends in years to come.

As for Winter's perfromance as a coach of the first team thus far, it's difficult to gauge because only a few players on the current roster seem capable of executing consistently within his possession oriented system.

I agree with the notion that TFC's build up on the attack has become entirely too predictable, and opponents are exploiting our inability to effectively distribute the ball. The majority of goals against have been on the counter attack a result of turnovers in the defensive third of the pitch.

I'll reserve judgement on Winter's tactical acumen until I see how he responds over the next few matches in terms of his adjustments to the roster. I also agree with the notion that he should blend a direct style of play with his preferred possession oriented system until more players with the appropriate skillset are acquired.

In short, I approve of what Winter is trying to do, but I don't necessarily approve of the job he's done with the first team at this point of the season.

Dreadlocks
05-02-2011, 12:50 PM
I question whether or no he really has control of the locker room. He repeatedly says that the players are not playing the way they were told to. Why is that? I also don't like the fact that he has taken NO ownership in the teams results. Always blames the team and sometimes throws players under the bus. I could go on but for now I have to vote NO!

Agreed.

I made that comment with the Cann situation in mind and you'll also notice I used the past tense in "appeared to have...". To me he sent the message that what he says is law. Getting the teams MVP from last year go on TV and say "I was wrong" showed Winter was boss to me.

I think that since then he has lost a bit of credibility with the players because of the lack of results.

Although I don't know the L.A. situation fully, I get the feeling that this may be Ruud Gulit part 2. Wasn't he also partial to Ty Harden?

Dreadlocks
05-02-2011, 12:52 PM
Hey mods, you think you can add an "on the fence" option in the poll? I can't really say I approve or disapprove at this point.

ManUtd4ever
05-02-2011, 12:56 PM
I question whether or no he really has control of the locker room. He repeatedly says that the players are not playing the way they were told to. Why is that? I also don't like the fact that he has taken NO ownership in the teams results. Always blames the team and sometimes throws players under the bus. I could go on but for now I have to vote NO!

Is that because of a lack of willingness to buy into the system on the part of most of our current players or a lack of technical ability to execute properly within the system?

I believe it's the latter, and it is Winter's job to make the necessary adjustments moving forward.

Beach_Red
05-02-2011, 01:03 PM
Is that because of a lack of willingness to buy into the system on the part of most of our current players or a lack of technical ability to execute properly within the system?

I believe it's the latter, and it is Winter's job to make the necessary adjustments moving forward.


Well, for players who have been here for a while it would be tough to get them to buy into a new system on a team that changes coaches every year.

And if it's a lack of ability then they know their time on the team will be ending soon as part of the "necessary adjustments" so that's also going to make it tough to get any extra effort out of them now.

It's sure making this year's games look awfully expensive.

bdiddy
05-02-2011, 01:36 PM
I think one of the problems we are going to have now is - our players have played for how many different coaches over the years? Changing up styles? Players? Leadership? Etc?

Coaches:
Mo
Carver
Interm-coach (can't remember name..)
Preki
Winter

5 coaches in 5 years - a multitude of players changing... no clear strategy or future plan - until now.

I find its really hard to give a final determination as to how the team is doing under a coach when we always have rotating players/coaches/etc year after year. I think a lot of us fans have accepted that this year is probably a write-off in terms of hope for a Playoff spot.

My hope for this year - is to see a core of good players stick together and build together... who knows what happens to DeGuz once he's contracts up. But I like the fact that Winter has been using some of his Academy players, giving them a taste and showing what it takes to get there. I see absolutely no value in getting rid of another coach so quickly - I think we've proven pretty well with this rotation of coaches, that a new one won't change the fortures of our club quickly.

It gives hope to younger academy players striving, puts pressure on current players to play better and gives experience where its needed.

We need to build stability, a core group of players that don't have to watch over their shoulder to see when they are going to get traded. Nobody will perform at their top level when they have those issues.

ryan
05-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Cummins is who you missed. Also Dasovic.

__wowza
05-02-2011, 02:29 PM
Hey mods, you think you can add an "on the fence" option in the poll? I can't really say I approve or disapprove at this point.

like the other approval threads, there's a reason why this option doesn't exist and that's because you set the criteria for it yourself. when it comes down to what you think a good gaffer is, is it win/loss record? is it how they cope with the schedule? is it an efficient use of tactics?

because you're placing him against your standard of adequacy, it's kind of difficult to have an option that allows people to make their own definition, but not make up their mind.

Dreadlocks
05-02-2011, 02:43 PM
like the other approval threads, there's a reason why this option doesn't exist and that's because you set the criteria for it yourself. when it comes down to what you think a good gaffer is, is it win/loss record? is it how they cope with the schedule? is it an efficient use of tactics?

because you're placing him against your standard of adequacy, it's kind of difficult to have an option that allows people to make their own definition, but not make up their mind.

I understand but I have thought about this and I can build cases in my mind for approval and cases for disapproval. So if I vote one way or another, it won't be a true reflection of my opinion.

Winter has not done enough to be called a failure nor has he done enough to be called a success imo. So I pick answer C!

Shep
05-02-2011, 02:54 PM
couldnt vote either way on this myself.

needs an 'On the Fence' option :)

I'd like to think this 'rebuilding' business is going somewhere, and I'm not a fan of the fast-food mentality of 'I want it now'.. but so far we've been kind of parked. Not appearing to move forward at all.. I couldve sworn we even threw it into reverse for a second there.

Time will tell

ensco
05-02-2011, 03:37 PM
I don't feel there's enough data to vote.

Just remember, Preki was at 90% or something last June. This poll won't tell you much.

__wowza
05-02-2011, 03:54 PM
I pick answer C!


needs an 'On the Fence' option :)


welp..
me -> :(:hump: <- you guys
i'll add it in next month.



I don't feel there's enough data to vote.
Just remember, Preki was at 90% or something last June. This poll won't tell you much.

yeah, but the difference with preki last may looked sort've like this:

May 8 - W vs Chicago 4-1
May 12 - W @ Montreal 0-1 (NCC)
May 15 - D @ LA 0-0
May 19 - D @ Vancouver 0-0 (NCC)
May 22 - W vs New England 1-0
May 29 - W @ San Jose 1-3

a convincing win against chicago (i was at that game, labrocca's fluke and two goals for barrett were HUGE), two away wins, two away draws (including one against LA), 9 goals in 6 games, 4 clean sheets in 6 games. you get the picture. we were in love. rereading the thread, many didn't mind seeing preki-ball yield these results for us!

jimiv
05-02-2011, 07:03 PM
welp..
me -> :(:hump: <- you guys
i'll add it in next month.




yeah, but the difference with preki last may looked sort've like this:

May 8 - W vs Chicago 4-1
May 12 - W @ Montreal 0-1 (NCC)
May 15 - D @ LA 0-0
May 19 - D @ Vancouver 0-0 (NCC)
May 22 - W vs New England 1-0
May 29 - W @ San Jose 1-3

a convincing win against chicago (i was at that game, labrocca's fluke and two goals for barrett were HUGE), two away wins, two away draws (including one against LA), 9 goals in 6 games, 4 clean sheets in 6 games. you get the picture. we were in love. rereading the thread, many didn't mind seeing preki-ball yield these results for us!

Preki's first 6 games of 2010...

L/L/W/L/W/L

Columbus v Toronto FC -Mar 27: Loss 2 - 0
NE Revolution v Toronto FC - Apr 10: Loss 4 - 1
Toronto FC v Philadelphia Union - Apr 15: Win 2 - 1
Colorado Rapids v Toronto FC - Apr 18: Loss 3 - 1
Toronto FC v Seattle Sounders - Apr 25: Win 2 - 0
Real Salt Lake v Toronto FC - May 1: Loss 2 - 1

ochos
05-02-2011, 07:11 PM
I'm happy with Winter, the new system and direction of the team. But I'm puzzled by the team selection... Harden's playing time in particular is puzzling. That's why he didn't get my yes

Couchy81
05-02-2011, 08:49 PM
Anyone who says he has failed is jumping the gun.

I don't like his roster selections so far, but I also don't like the roster, so I can't really be a hypocrit.

I like his critical comments about the team and that they are under performing. Honesty is a quality I like in a coach.

Give him the season and we go from there.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2011, 10:13 PM
I like the 4-3-3 attacking system....ill give winter until may of 2012, then ill collect my thoughts on him...

DichioTFC
05-03-2011, 05:25 AM
God, it's been awhile since we've had one of these bad boys!! Taken from DichioTFC's concept, lemme ask you, how do you feel about how Prek- errr, Winter's done so far?

Just some guidelines to those who are on the fence:


Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.


For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in April:



T/T/T/L/T/W/L: 4 points out of a possible 18
(red text denotes NCC fixture)



Toronto FC v Chivas USA
Apr 02: Tie 1 - 1

Earthquakes v Toronto FC
Apr 09: Tie 1 - 1

Toronto FC v LA Galaxy
Apr 13: Tie 0 - 0

Toronto FC v D.C. United
Apr 16: Loss 0 - 3

Toronto FC v Crew
Apr 23: Tie 1 - 1

FC Edmonton v Toronto FC
Apr 30: Win 0 - 3Sounders v Toronto FC


I approve of this poll :D

I voted yes. Results are not terribly important unless we're losing due to utter incompetency. It might just be me, but I can see good signs from this team with just a few really, really bad spots that ruin everything on the whole.

Anyhoo, yes for me.

ilikemusic
05-03-2011, 05:26 AM
He has yet to do anything to inspire confidence. I suppose we have no choice but to give him time, but I am not going to spout some bullshit about 'vision', or make excuses for him because he is new to the league. TFC management, in all of incarnations, has done an amazing job of convincing people that teams can't be turned around quickly.

__wowza
05-03-2011, 04:14 PM
Preki's first 6 games of 2010...
L/L/W/L/W/L


why are you comparing preki's record in april to winter's record in may?

jloome
05-03-2011, 07:35 PM
I approve of the progress he's made in changing the style of play;

I approve of some of the players he's brought in.

I am on the fence as to his ability to handle personalities.

I disapprove of his team selection often enough for it to be worrying.

I disapprove of the job Paul Marriner did in finding us some quality, although three months isn't a huge amount of time.

As for other team issues, media and PR continue to waver between average and appalling and the absence of a sensible DP signing this season to either control the back line or pump in goals was a disappointing.

boban
05-03-2011, 08:07 PM
I don't feel there's enough data to vote.

Just remember, Preki was at 90% or something last June. This poll won't tell you much.
But you got to know this board is aces for coming to too quick conclusions.

Roogsy
05-04-2011, 08:45 AM
I approve of the progress he's made in changing the style of play;

I approve of some of the players he's brought in.

I am on the fence as to his ability to handle personalities.

I disapprove of his team selection often enough for it to be worrying.

I disapprove of the job Paul Marriner did in finding us some quality, although three months isn't a huge amount of time.

As for other team issues, media and PR continue to waver between average and appalling and the absence of a sensible DP signing this season to either control the back line or pump in goals was a disappointing.

This is very close to how I feel.

__wowza
05-04-2011, 12:01 PM
But you got to know this board is aces for coming to too quick conclusions.

yeah, god for bid this board is pleased with a coaches performance warrants 10 outt've a possible 12 points!! these threads are always done at the end of the month as a retrospective of their entire months performance.

i understand you're making a generalization, but it'd probably be better suited for one of the roster threads where a players ranks are dramatically different.

boban
05-04-2011, 06:10 PM
yeah, god for bid this board is pleased with a coaches performance warrants 10 outt've a possible 12 points!! these threads are always done at the end of the month as a retrospective of their entire months performance.

i understand you're making a generalization, but it'd probably be better suited for one of the roster threads where a players ranks are dramatically different.
No, it fits here too.
Player specific, coach, or team as a whole, this board is like sailing on the rough seas - up, down, but never level and smooth.
We win 2 games and we're the best at anything, we lose 1 game and we suck like nobody anywhere.

jloome
05-04-2011, 06:12 PM
No, it fits here too.
Player specific, coach, or team as a whole, this board is like sailing on the rough seas - up, down, but never level and smooth.
We win 2 games and we're the best at anything, we lose 1 game and we suck like nobody anywhere.

Not all of us, dude. Some people are just louder than others; in my experience that's usually those with the largest chip on their shoulder.

TFCRegina
05-05-2011, 12:07 AM
Voted no as a reflection of my general distaste with the entire management team. I'm not sure who to blame, but somebody is.

boban
05-05-2011, 12:30 AM
Voted no as a reflection of my general distaste with the entire management team. I'm not sure who to blame, but somebody is.
Seriously what did you expect?
I hope for a little better, but not looking to blame anyone or have a distaste. If Tchani wasn't so stupid against the Crew we would have 9 points. We would be sitting right on playoffs doorstep with more than 25 games to go.
Enough time to strengthen the team and get better coherence from the boys and go on a run or two.
We're not that far out of it.

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 05:51 AM
as overall technical director, I think he's a good choice to have in charge of the team and the academy and all that.

as head coach, I'm still on the fence about that really. He doesn't have a good enough squad, and it seems he's trying to get them to play a style that they're not good enough for. Hopefully they can learn it and improve quickly and the growing pains will be worth it. not entirely convinced about that last sentence though.

I went with yes. we'll see.

This post along with jloome's, more or less sum up my opinion.

He is clearly trying to get them to play above their collective ability, but it's still too early to say if that's because he's trying to weed out the chaff, and keep the players that can adapt to it well.

I am pleased that we appear to be getting more competent and consistent defensively, without going into a purely defensive gameplan (as Preki preached).

Only time well tell if the problems are simply growing pains, or more writhing in mediocre limbo.

- Scott

__wowza
05-05-2011, 10:13 AM
No, it fits here too.
Player specific, coach, or team as a whole, this board is like sailing on the rough seas - up, down, but never level and smooth.
We win 2 games and we're the best at anything, we lose 1 game and we suck like nobody anywhere.

yet despite winter's record, and despite not winning a single game in april, we have 79% of people approve of the job he's doing. see what i'm saying?

it's retrospective.
people have had time to digest.

we're basing their opinions off of the last game in april as much as they are the first game of april. so again, i reiterate, i understand the generalization with matchday, roster threads, etc. i've seen it too. one game santos is our saviour, the next he's crap. last year gargan was up for player of the year, this year people are saying he shouldn't even be on the pitch..

but if you can explain how he managed to go a month without winning yet still have over 75% of the vote (especially with us shortsighted fans), i'm honestly all ears.

ochos
05-05-2011, 10:19 AM
yet despite winter's record, and despite not winning a single game in april, we have 79% of people approve of the job he's doing. see what i'm saying?

it's retrospective.
people have had time to digest.

we're basing their opinions off of the last game in april as much as they are the first game of april. so again, i reiterate, i understand the generalization with matchday, roster threads, etc. i've seen it too. one game santos is our saviour, the next he's crap. last year gargan was up for player of the year, this year people are saying he shouldn't even be on the pitch..

but if you can explain how he managed to go a month without winning yet still have over 75% of the vote (especially with us shortsighted fans), i'm honestly all ears.

Originally Posted by Darlofletch http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1289914#post1289914)
as overall technical director, I think he's a good choice to have in charge of the team and the academy and all that.

as head coach, I'm still on the fence about that really. He doesn't have a good enough squad, and it seems he's trying to get them to play a style that they're not good enough for. Hopefully they can learn it and improve quickly and the growing pains will be worth it. not entirely convinced about that last sentence though.

I went with yes. we'll see.

los sonadores
05-06-2011, 01:26 AM
I can only imagine that the team's play will improve. I'm trying to reserve my judgment until next year: Winter needs some different players, Mariner and Winter (who met for the first time 3 months ago and come from very different backgrounds) need time together, and Winter needs more managerial experience - in general and in the league. How much experience remains to be seen, but a year should at least begin to help.

Above all, I fail to see how not giving both Winter and Mariner the full three years on their contracts could possibly be constructive. Not with the turnover we've already had, the clueless Anselmi, and not with the academy being reshaped.

Mo vs Winter/Mariner seem like night and day in terms of attitude and general class. Mo was an MLS Rumours star, dishonest, completely unreliable, and as a 'football operations director' a dressing room cancer in himself. I don't see those qualities at a basic level in the current pairing.

As for the media and especially the PR depts, they are still annoying and/or amateurish.

menefreghista
05-06-2011, 06:31 AM
Mo vs Winter/Mariner seem like night and day in terms of attitude and general class. Mo was an MLS Rumours star, dishonest, completely unreliable, and as a 'football operations director' a dressing room cancer in himself. I don't see those qualities at a basic level in the current pairing

Based on the way Nana is being treating I can't help but feel its more of the same, just with different people in charge.

v00d00daddy
05-06-2011, 07:55 AM
Based on the way Nana is being treating I can't help but feel its more of the same, just with different people in charge.


How is Nana being treated?

Apart from not being selected in the starting XI

menefreghista
05-06-2011, 08:05 AM
How is Nana being treated?

Apart from not being selected in the starting XI

He's being frozen out of the squad because he doesn't want to sign the extension they are offering.

I wonder how all the 'a contract is a contract' people are feeling about Nana being dicked around by management.

Beach_Red
05-06-2011, 08:15 AM
Mariner and Winter (who met for the first time 3 months ago and come from very different backgrounds) need time together, and Winter needs more managerial experience - in general and in the league. How much experience remains to be seen, but a year should at least begin to help.

Above all, I fail to see how not giving both Winter and Mariner the full three years on their contracts could possibly be constructive. Not with the turnover we've already had, the clueless Anselmi, and not with the academy being reshaped.


When you put it like that - in the fifth year of the team's existence - it sure makes the tickets seem far too expensive.

Of course the team will stay the course with Winter and Mariner but so far it really doesn't look like a night and day difference. Yes, they took over a team that's a mess but no one seems to be in much of a hurry to change things much. Sure, we understand these things take time and a lot of the old has to be cleared out but there doesn't seem to be much of a sense of urgency - on the filed or off.

Mariner learned after only one, "We're about to sign a big name," and has been quiet since, but one significant signing, and not a loan, might not be a bad idea sometime soon.

__wowza
05-06-2011, 08:28 AM
He's being frozen out of the squad because he doesn't want to sign the extension they are offering.

I wonder how all the 'a contract is a contract' people are feeling about Nana being dicked around by management.

that makes sense to me though. why would you start a player and involve him in your tactics (insert a "winter has tactics?" joke) only to have him leave?

Beach_Red
05-06-2011, 08:31 AM
that makes sense to me though. why would you start a player and involve him in your tactics (insert a "winter has tactics?" joke) only to have him leave?


If it's true (and we don't know it is) it means that the coach isn't making the decisions about who plays. Maybe this is a special case because the contract is being renegotiated (though until it is there's that whole, "A contract is a contract and you live up to it," thing we went through once before on here), but it brings up a lot of questions about how the decisions get made at TFC and who is ultimately running the team.

mastermixer
05-06-2011, 08:32 AM
They still need to tap into the market south of the United States. TFC hasn't really ever done that.

menefreghista
05-06-2011, 08:36 AM
that makes sense to me though. why would you start a player and involve him in your tactics (insert a "winter has tactics?" joke) only to have him leave?

Having an expiring contract isn't a good enough reason not to use a player. You play your strongest squad possible. Besides the guys playing ahead of him probably won't be around next year either.

menefreghista
05-06-2011, 08:38 AM
They still need to tap into the market south of the United States. TFC hasn't really ever done that.

Agreed. The Fire signed a 20-year old Columbian this week on a free transfer.

Somehow we aren't capable of making signings like that.

ManUtd4ever
05-06-2011, 08:41 AM
If it's true (and we don't know it is) it means that the coach isn't making the decisions about who plays. Maybe this is a special case because the contract is being renegotiated (though until it is there's that whole, "A contract is a contract and you live up to it," thing we went through once before on here), but it brings up a lot of questions about how the decisions get made at TFC and who is ultimately running the team.

Beach, this doesn't make any sense. If anything, it illustrates that Winter is firmly in control of the roster decisions. Who else would make that call?

If the speculation is valid that Nana isn't willing to sign a contract extension and Nana isn't able (or willing) to adapt to Winter's system, the logical move would be to keep him sidelined to avoid injury and trade him to acquire assets.

Beach_Red
05-06-2011, 08:48 AM
Beach, this doesn't make any sense. If anything, it illustrates that Winter is firmly in control of the roster decisions. Who else would make that call?

If the speculation is valid that Nana isn't willing to sign a contract extension and Nana isn't able (or willing) to adapt to the Winter's system, the logical move would be to keep him sidelined to avoid injury and trade him to acquire assets.


Those are two seperate things - singing the contract and willingness or ability to adapt. If it's an inability to play the system that's one thing, but the rumour (and it's just an unsubstantiated rumour at this point) is that the player doesn't want to sign a contract for the number of years the team is offering (this did come up last year so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibilities).

In the meantime, he is under contract and as far as we know living up to his end. How is the team not playing him different from a player under contract sitting out?

And sure, I understand the team has these "long term goals" but how many games in the meantime do they sacrifice?

ManUtd4ever
05-06-2011, 08:58 AM
Those are two seperate things - singing the contract and willingness or ability to adapt. If it's an inability to play the system that's one thing, but the rumour (and it's just an unsubstantiated rumour at this point) is that the player doesn't want to sign a contract for the number of years the team is offering (this did come up last year so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibilities).

In the meantime, he is under contract and as far as we know living up to his end. How is the team not playing him different from a player under contract sitting out?

And sure, I understand the team has these "long term goals" but how many games in the meantime do they sacrifice?

I really like Nana, but based on his form this season, I don't think Winter has sacrificed anything by starting Cann or Williams in his place. For whatever reason, he has been terrible in his limited appearances. Even Harden has been more impressive this year.

v00d00daddy
05-06-2011, 12:58 PM
If the RUMOUR that Nana is sitting because he won't extend a contract that TFC is offering then I think it's a shitty move on TFC's part.

Not because Nana is some vital cog in the machine that is a successful TFC but rather because it should be a common courtesy. Let the guy earn another contract. Whether or not it be with TFC.

All that being said. It's just as likely that he's not playing because he doesn't have the skill set that Winter is looking for.

Who knows.

Where did this rumour start?

Does it have legs? Is it from multiple anonymous sources or is it just speculation? Has Nana told someone this?