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View Full Version : TFC's Problem: Danleigh Borman



DichioTFC
05-01-2011, 04:11 PM
Just watched the game in review on TFC TV (didn't watch the actual match), and I think Borman is a bigger problem than we realize. I watched this with the understanding that he was our LB, so correct me if I'm wrong. Still, even as a CM or DM, it appeared that he was a major problem.

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?id=3055

Seattle's first goal
1:08 - Borman (#25) is nowhere near the Seattle attacker on the right wing. As the ball gets played down the wing, Borman first tries to cut down the angle of the guy with the ball, then sprints to try to recover. Problem is that Borman is so far out of position, the crosser has a full three or four seconds in the attacking third to cross the ball. Gargan loses track of his man and Seattle score their first goal, but that wouldn't have happened had Borman been on his man from the get-go.
http://i51.tinypic.com/20zxu2w.png
-----------
leadup to Frei's first big save, (before second goal)
3:06 - Borman who was supposed to be LB, is completely out of position, playing almost as DM (even though there are five TFC players surrounding three Seattle players).
http://i52.tinypic.com/2gtxdmh.png
3:13 - play gets switched to right side. Cann has to take on a winger while Borman is now playing as a CB, covering for Cann, when he should've had the right winger to begin with.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2ryrfox.png
-----------
leadup to Frei's second big save
3:19 - right before the ball gets played to (again) the Seattle right wing (Jaqua), Borman is completely out of position and Cann is playing too soft on the attacker. Ball gets played over one-time by Jaqua on a beautiful pass, but he wouldn't have had that opportunity if Borman were positioned properly.
http://i52.tinypic.com/29xw1lx.png
-----------
Second Seattle goal
3:55 - I'm not sure if Borman is lost at this point, but he's playing the attacker very loosely. Ball gets played to the right side (yes, again) where Borman should be defending. Rest of defenders sprint back to try to defend. Borman. Jogs. Back.
http://i51.tinypic.com/f3i6fm.png
http://i55.tinypic.com/ea33p4.png
-----------
leadup to another Frei save (weak shot on target)
4:30 - Just watch Borman. Seriously, just watch him. He's in the bottom left of the frame. Compare his backtracking speed with the Seattle attacker just above him.
http://i51.tinypic.com/33opkbq.png
4:35 - The Seattle attacker that Borman was previously in-line with is now inside the box making an attempt on net, as the Toronto defender has to come out to close him down. Borman is jogging back the whole way, even slower than he was on the second Seattle goal.
http://i51.tinypic.com/f0z33d.png
-----------


Granted Borman could've been put into an attacking role (the next clip shows him making a nice pass to Yourass for one of two TFC shots on target), but still, as a defender, from this recap alone, he looks pretty terrible. Like a Marvel Wynne with less speed.

Updated with pictures

spark
05-01-2011, 04:13 PM
IMO he not the answer and gives us nothing more than Hrscranovics did.

Heathen
05-01-2011, 04:22 PM
IMO he not the answer and gives us nothing more than Hrscranovics did.

He's cheaper

ryan
05-01-2011, 04:23 PM
His passing is questionable, that's for sure.

I'm personally fucking tired of the 5+ defender to defender missed passes that go out of play in each game.

Borman is usually responsible for 2 of those.

Walms
05-01-2011, 04:45 PM
Im still wondering why Eckersly wasent played, from what I've seen. he is tfc's best RB... way over Fricking Gargan

DichioTFC
05-01-2011, 04:47 PM
IMO he not the answer and gives us nothing more than Hrscranovics did.

Borman has started pretty much every game this season if I'm not mistaken, which is ridiculous considering the depth we have at LB.

Not sure why Winter is undervaluing a strong defensive back four, considering the depth we have on our team at that position.

Oblio2
05-01-2011, 04:53 PM
Im still wondering why Eckersly wasent played, from what I've seen. he is tfc's best RB... way over Fricking Gargan


Id take thisguy over Gargan.....

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/logos/logos1008/logos100801206/7715067-portrait-of-disabled-senior-man-on-wheelchair--indoor.jpg


or even this guy....


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EOtChQK2NWU/TZur6lLHIsI/AAAAAAAAImk/CCK-RdooOcI/s1600/10%2BMost%2BInteresting%2BPeople%2BWith%2BNo%2BLeg s%2B4.jpg


or...this guy


http://www.palenightproductions.com/Images/DecomposingCorpse1.jpg

DichioTFC
05-01-2011, 04:58 PM
^ Remember when we had this guy?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KjCLsoLU7c4/RiBbpTZVdUI/AAAAAAAAANk/MnZEwSP1SL4/s320/Pylon.jpg

I would take him over Gargan and Borman right now.

profit89
05-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Gargan is brutal

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Ah, Bormans the problem....... right.

Listen. he was as bad as the rest of them last night. Few of them give a damn and they demoralise the ones who do.

Borman's crap, but he's not even close to being TFC's 'problem'

CretanBull
05-01-2011, 05:06 PM
Ah, Bormans the problem....... right.

Listen. he was as bad as the rest of them last night. Few of them give a damn and they demoralise the ones who do.

Borman's crap, but he's not even close to being TFC's 'problem'

Couldn't agree more :thumbsup:

I haven't liked Borman since he's arrived here, but he isn't the problem as much as the fact that about 7 of our starting 11 are as bad as he is.

jloome
05-01-2011, 06:43 PM
I think his point with this exercise is that Borman was our biggest liability last night. I'm not sure it's that clearcut as half of our starting lineup isn't good enough to start in MLS. but he's definitely right that Borman's positioning was absolute shit.

Super Cereal
05-01-2011, 06:45 PM
Well done compiling all of that, nice.

Have to agree. At the time of the trade he struck me as a throw in for the sake of a throw in. Expected Winter to try to make him seem valuable, but give it up you're hurting the team.

werewolf
05-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Seems his biggest problem is getting caught upfield, not unusual since he used to be a midfielder, and we were losing for most of the game. Still photos don't give proper understanding of the situation as to why he was out of position.

He is also one of the best crossers on the team.

He may not have had a strong game, but its far from the biggest problem.

Section 117
05-01-2011, 07:33 PM
Here is an idea: THE WHOLE BACK FOUR INCLUDING THE SUBS ARE FUCKING SHIT. NONE OF THEM CAN MAKE A SIMPLE PASS.

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 08:21 PM
Maybe the problem is that he's trying to play 'total football'

I swear......this board.....

wzhxvy
05-01-2011, 08:47 PM
DichioTFC good stuff..great work. I have to say...I have had always had some concerns about Borman, but your analysis is revealing....I also do not know what his natural position is.

prizby
05-01-2011, 09:34 PM
1. Borman wasn't playing left back in the 2nd half...we were playing 3 at the back

2. How many times did Borman make runs up the left side into open space when Stevanovic had the ball and what did Alan do, he cut to the middle and lost the ball leaving Borman out to dry

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 09:34 PM
DichioTFC good stuff..great work. I have to say...I have had always had some concerns about Borman, but your analysis is revealing....I also do not know what his natural position is.

This is my point though.

Total football requires that you leave your position and someone else covers for you. Its about switching roles and overlapping plays.

I mean is he fucking up because hes doing what he's told, and being caught out of position because nobody knows what the fuck is going on?

Whoop
05-01-2011, 09:50 PM
In Winter's defense total football doesn't exist.

That was more of a media/fan concoction that what Aron Winter ever said.

When did Winter ever say that TFC was going to play Total Football?

Total Football is a concept from the '60s-70s. (Yes, yes, I know it existed before and has gone different mutations since the '70s.)

I think the problem goes further than that... too many players on the team lack a) basic footballing skills and b) lack football IQ.

sashavukelich
05-01-2011, 09:59 PM
I can't understand why Youra and Eckersly aren't starting, they are clearly a step above. I don't have a problem with borman, but your interesting analysis shows so clear defensive deficits in his game, or his inability to play both ways (which is fine, then he just needs to be a stay at home defender).

I do however think Gargan was entirely at fault for the first goal because he was ball watching and not marking his man.

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 10:07 PM
I can't understand why Youra and Eckersly aren't starting, they are clearly a step above. I don't have a problem with borman, but your interesting analysis shows so clear defensive deficits in his game, or his inability to play both ways (which is fine, then he just needs to be a stay at home defender).

I do however think Gargan was entirely at fault for the first goal because he was ball watching and not marking his man.

Ok with Ecklersley..... two games on fieldturf within three days and he's on loan from who?.....

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 10:09 PM
Right Burnley.

Ok, so its hardly Juventus, but still theyre not going to be happy if we wreck their player, and theres probably no way theyd want him on fieldturf three days apart.

CretanBull
05-01-2011, 10:18 PM
I think the problem goes further than that... too many players on the team lack a) basic footballing skills and b) lack football IQ.

They're asking a team made up mostly of NCAA players to play a fairly complicated system that requires good natural instincts. Peterson, Gargan etc. are hardly Cruyff and co.

2mil4dero+santo
05-01-2011, 11:23 PM
I think is the funniest thread I've seen so far on this board... borman is our problem lol... you could replace borman with roberto carlos in his prime and we wouldn't be any better. wow...

ilikemusic
05-02-2011, 12:39 AM
Danleigh Borman! Even when it was Andy Welsh I knew it was Danleigh Borman!

trane
05-02-2011, 09:29 AM
^ Remember when we had this guy?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KjCLsoLU7c4/RiBbpTZVdUI/AAAAAAAAANk/MnZEwSP1SL4/s320/Pylon.jpg

I would take him over Gargan and Borman right now.


The thing about this guy, is he would at least stay in position.

trane
05-02-2011, 09:31 AM
In Winter's defense total football doesn't exist.

That was more of a media/fan concoction that what Aron Winter ever said.

When did Winter ever say that TFC was going to play Total Football?

Total Football is a concept from the '60s-70s. (Yes, yes, I know it existed before and has gone different mutations since the '70s.)

I think the problem goes further than that... too many players on the team lack a) basic footballing skills and b) lack football IQ.

This is been out problem since day one, and Winter has stated so, and is addressing it. We will see what happens, we will see how it is addressed.

Sweeper
05-02-2011, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the breakdown, but this is a team game. Borman is no worse than Gargan or Cann or Harden he is just joining the attack (as instructed) and getting burned when we turn over the ball and the other team counter attacks. The problem is we can't hold the ball under pressure. Teams will continue to pressure us looking for the turnover so until we can make quicker passes and move better off the ball, we will continue to get beat up on the counterattack. We need to hold the ball in their end so we don't have to defend. Going to take a while to get there, I just hope we can get there with the talent pool and salary space that is available.

Fort York Redcoat
05-02-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm of the mind that one player is not the issue but full credit to the OP for his tracking of Borman's game that was akin to a very small bull in a china shop.

bdiddy
05-02-2011, 10:37 AM
DichioFC - while I disagree with some of your points, I agree with others. Borman is having a bit of trouble.

On the first goal for example; i remember watching Borman try to move up to provide a passing lane (to I think DeGuzman), I think De Guzman lost the ball, so instead of getting the ball on the run, Borman had to turn back and hustle (I don't believe they showed that) which is why he was so far out of position and nobody else cycled around to pick up his man.

In your first picture- I see 3 reds and 2 greens on the same line. The one red closest should have picked up Bormans man straight across, rather than having Borman track all-the way back. Borman then should have ran back through the middle. The fact that a good cross got through is not great... what was worse than Borman on that play was Gargan...

Gargan was right beside the man but got caught looking at a beautiful cross coming in and thinking... I wonder if I could head that into my net... Oops, my marked man is now 4 feet away and I just jumped in the air for no reason.

In the end, I think the first priority needs to get Gargan on the sidelines as a Sub only. He's not fast enough and makes too many bad passes/bad crosses/bad reads.

Borman was also trying to make a lot of overlapping runs and he was aggressively trying to get the ball. I think he was over-extending himself which meant he got caught out of position. Overall - he should have been better.

But - Gargan is the real error at defense. If we had a quality RB (maybe Ekersly); that first goal would probably be erased by a taller, stronger, better positioned RB.

Diddy

Roogsy
05-02-2011, 10:37 AM
He's cheaper


He will be cheaper next year. This year he (and Tchani) is costing us half of DeRo's salary.

jloome
05-02-2011, 11:44 AM
DichioFC - while I disagree with some of your points, I agree with others. Borman is having a bit of trouble.

On the first goal for example; i remember watching Borman try to move up to provide a passing lane (to I think DeGuzman), I think De Guzman lost the ball, so instead of getting the ball on the run, Borman had to turn back and hustle (I don't believe they showed that) which is why he was so far out of position and nobody else cycled around to pick up his man.

In your first picture- I see 3 reds and 2 greens on the same line. The one red closest should have picked up Bormans man straight across, rather than having Borman track all-the way back. Borman then should have ran back through the middle. The fact that a good cross got through is not great... what was worse than Borman on that play was Gargan...

Gargan was right beside the man but got caught looking at a beautiful cross coming in and thinking... I wonder if I could head that into my net... Oops, my marked man is now 4 feet away and I just jumped in the air for no reason.

In the end, I think the first priority needs to get Gargan on the sidelines as a Sub only. He's not fast enough and makes too many bad passes/bad crosses/bad reads.

Borman was also trying to make a lot of overlapping runs and he was aggressively trying to get the ball. I think he was over-extending himself which meant he got caught out of position. Overall - he should have been better.

But - Gargan is the real error at defense. If we had a quality RB (maybe Ekersly); that first goal would probably be erased by a taller, stronger, better positioned RB.

Diddy

It's a good point. They attacked Gargan's position all night. There were a couple of times when they had a break down our left flank and actually checked it at half field to switch play to the right side.

TFCRegina
05-02-2011, 11:50 AM
He will be cheaper next year. This year he (and Tchani) is costing us half of DeRo's salary.

Yep. Can't wait for Barrett's cap hit to expire as well.

bdiddy
05-02-2011, 01:22 PM
It's a good point. They attacked Gargan's position all night. There were a couple of times when they had a break down our left flank and actually checked it at half field to switch play to the right side.

Agreed - it was almost defeating. It was almost like - lets cross it in from Borman's side because Gargan doesn't mark his man and you can slip through. That guy Fernandez got away from Gargan all night long.

I think one problem I have overall judging talent throughout MLS is just experience with other players/etc. I've had many years to follow NFL/NBA/MLB players to understand how our players relate to other teams quality. But sometimes its hard to understand how our MLS quality players (or lack of quality) relates to other teams, as I don't know the players as well.

[NBF]
05-02-2011, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the breakdown, but this is a team game. Borman is no worse than Gargan or Cann or Harden he is just joining the attack (as instructed) and getting burned when we turn over the ball and the other team counter attacks. The problem is we can't hold the ball under pressure. Teams will continue to pressure us looking for the turnover so until we can make quicker passes and move better off the ball, we will continue to get beat up on the counterattack. We need to hold the ball in their end so we don't have to defend. Going to take a while to get there, I just hope we can get there with the talent pool and salary space that is available.

1. Agreed: Borman is no worse than Gargan.(and no less)

2. Agreed: The problem is we can't hold the ball under pressure.

3. Formations: 4-3-3 vs 3-4-3

Toronto's 4-3-3:

---------------GK--------------
DR-------CB---------CB------DL
---------DM--------DM---------
---------------CM--------------
RW--------------------------LW
---------------FC--------------

Seattle's 3-4-3:

---------------GK--------------
-------CB------CB------CB-----
-------------------------------
RM-------CM-------CM------LM
-------------------------------
------ST-------FC------ST-----

Its obvious to me that Sigi Schmidt did his homework in preparation to Saturdays game. The 4-3-3 requires that the fullbacks push forward to support the attack, but TFC's fullbacks are average at best on defense and are useless pushing forward. All Seattle had to do in the game was to make use of the numerical advantage in the midfield and attack the open space behind the fullbacks pushing forward. Look at it this way.

TFC's defense in 4-3-3:

-------------------------Frei--------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
--------------Williams-------------Cann----------------
-------------------------------------------------------
Gargan------Fernandez------------Jaqua---------Borman
-------------------------------------------------------
--------DeGuzman------Montero------Peterson---------
-------------------------------------------------------
-*Wahl------------------Tchani--------------*Freiborg-
-------------------------------------------------------
Martina------*Alonso--------------*Evans----Stavanovic
-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------Gordon------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
----------Hurtado--------Riley--------Ianni-------------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Keller-------------------------


Seattle's attack in 3-4-3:

Still Kicking
05-02-2011, 06:27 PM
I disagree with the detailed analysis of the play and the zeroing in on Borman, because of where your analysis of the play begins. You show the Seattle attack underway, but the attack was a counter-attack. JDG had the ball, he was making his way forward, but without much control. Remember he even threw in a Savardian spin-a-rama to try and make his way through two Sounders and lost the ball. I maintain that Borman (a midfielder at this point) would have been moving forward to take a winger position to the left of JDG. I thought that JDG's lack of effectiveness with the ball and footy foolishness (he should have known that his burst up the middle of his own half had created a defending vacuum behind him - hell, he is the holding midfielder)was the reason that the Sounders were able to spread the ball and find Evans all alone. I am not the type to harp on JDG's mistakes nor am I a huge defender of Borman- but I feel that analysis of a breakdown in coverage depends so much on where you choose to "start the tape".

Alonso
05-02-2011, 06:39 PM
1. Borman wasn't playing left back in the 2nd half...we were playing 3 at the back

2. How many times did Borman make runs up the left side into open space when Stevanovic had the ball and what did Alan do, he cut to the middle and lost the ball leaving Borman out to dry



This happened at least 4 times that I can clearly remember. It was like he purposefully was not looking for Bormans runs...

It could be that Seattle were looking to shut this down though, seeing that it had worked for us in several previous games and maybe Stevanovic was trying to keep them honest to open up that option for later in the game. But in any case he just ran into 3 Seattle players and lost possession every time instead.

prizby
05-02-2011, 07:15 PM
This happened at least 4 times that I can clearly remember. It was like he purposefully was not looking for Bormans runs...

It could be that Seattle were looking to shut this down though, seeing that it had worked for us in several previous games and maybe Stevanovic was trying to keep them honest to open up that option for later in the game. But in any case he just ran into 3 Seattle players and lost possession every time instead.

the amount of space Borman had compared to what Stevanovic had when he cut inside was not even comparable...Borman had the whole left flank and Stevanovic had 2 or 3 defenders collapsing on him...you could see Borman just get hanged out to dry cuz Stevanovic rarely treks back too...do we want our full backs to join the attack and run forward...then we got to use them, turning the ball over when they are 15 yards in front of the ball is not going to lead to any good

Dreadlocks
05-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Borman is mediocre at best but is not the entire problem.

1) We need an attacking mid who tracks back and shows for the ball giving the wing backs and DM's an option. (... and this not a former player reference)
2) ALL of them - including Borman need to make the simple, quick pass as soon as they get the ball. So many times there is a man to pass to and they hesitate then the lane closes. Then they are forced backwards and we all know the rest.
3) The wingers need to track back and show for the ball more too. Steva did this in his first couple of games and looked pretty strong - not so much on Saturday though. Martina may not be as at fault on the right as Gargan but if he doesn't track back and show (which he hasn't), guys like Gargan who can't make the 20 yard pass on the line are set up to fail.

They say the best offence is a good defense in most sports but in soccer, it's not possible to score if you don't have the ball.

We need more meaningful possession.