The rot goes deep.

[Wingback6]

I will attempt to be Succint here.

While I don't live in TO I've followed TFC in some capacity since 2007?

And I have come to this conclusion, which I know will not be a novel one.
MLSE is the problem, we only have to look at the other franchises that this Monopoly runs to know it.

It has been the same story year after year (we are rebuilding). But you will never build anything if you change the foundation every new day.

The only reason the Maple Leafs have a shot at improvement is because they brought in Burke who is more powerful in the NHL than the corporate stooges that run MLSE. Until we get someone like that at TFC it will be the same lie year after year.

One need only look at the description of the organization from the point of view of former players, and others who were screwed over by the club as well as the 'horror' stories of people living in basements. blah blah blah. to realize the problem with this club. Here is the rub.

MLSE makes a lot of money, that should be the first warning sign. If they are making money someone is paying and it is the fans and the players. I am no business man buy my impression of business especially big ones, is they don't make money by being generous. DeRo going... a business decision. Bringing in new middle management to solve upper management problems: Business decision. Raising prices on the product, when the product does not have any significant improvements: Business decision.

MLSE is a business and a very good one. That is not good for the football. Why? Because good football leads to good business, not the other way around. As long as MLSE gets the incoming capital of a good team, from a bad team, then the team will be bad. They will only spend money on the club when it is clear they will lose more money if they don't.

What do we do as fans?? we want to support our team, and the players, but if I am right, then what can we do? Boycott games, refuse to buy merchandise, leave the scarves at home??

And if I am wrong, then somebody else please explain the plights of the three franchise owned by MLSE in another convincing way.

[Red Rat]

his is old news

[Yeoman]

shut up rat i'm learning

[Parkdale]

rage level: approaching yeoman levels

[__wowza]

MLSE is a business and a very good one. That is not good for the football. Why? Because good football leads to good business, not the other way around. As long as MLSE gets the incoming capital of a good team, from a bad team, then the team will be bad. They will only spend money on the club when it is clear they will lose more money if they don't.


i heard they just spent $20 mil in a new academy.
fuck that though, let's not talk about the new training facilities.
they don't care about the future, ya know?

[DichioTFC]

rage level: approaching yeoman levels

Has potential to exceed Yeoman rage levels if we don't kill FC Edmonton on Wednesday. Shit will hit the fan.

[Yeoman]

yeoman rage only will occur if we somehow get trounced and then montreal goes on to win like 82-6
right now it's morbid yeoman curiosity

[Wingback6]

i heard they just spent $20 mil in a new academy.
fuck that though, let's not talk about the new training facilities.
they don't care about the future, ya know?

Touche... though my point has more to do with management of the first team
building an academy is alot easier than building a winning franchise... and that's what pays for the Academy facilities.

Why can they spend $20 million on new fields and not another $500,000 on the franchise leading scorer?

[ExiledRed]

i heard they just spent $20 mil in a new academy.
fuck that though, let's not talk about the new training facilities.
they don't care about the future, ya know?

The future is selling off any really talented academy players to european teams for a million here or five million there.

When this team got $5million toward its operational budget because they let a young player that they didnt even pay for, go.......

Well what do you think they thought?

[Oblio2]

The future is selling off any really talented academy players to european teams for a million here or five million there.

When this team got $5million toward its operational budget because they let a young player that they didnt even pay for, go.......

Well what do you think they thought?



http://www.income-opps.com/images/cha-ching.gif

[TOBOR !]

MLSE is a business and a very good one. That is not good for the football. Why? Because good football leads to good business, not the other way around. As long as MLSE gets the incoming capital of a good team, from a bad team, then the team will be bad. They will only spend money on the club when it is clear they will lose more money if they don't.



that's a real headscratcher, that is.

[boban]

The future is selling off any really talented academy players to european teams for a million here or five million there.

When this team got $5million toward its operational budget because they let a young player that they didnt even pay for, go.......

Well what do you think they thought?
touche .. well put.

[ryan]

MLSE makes a lot of money, that should be the first warning sign. If they are making money someone is paying and it is the fans and the players. I am no business man buy my impression of business especially big ones, is they don't make money by being generous. DeRo going... a business decision. Bringing in new middle management to solve upper management problems: Business decision. Raising prices on the product, when the product does not have any significant improvements: Business decision.

MLSE is a business and a very good one. That is not good for the football. Why? Because good football leads to good business, not the other way around. As long as MLSE gets the incoming capital of a good team, from a bad team, then the team will be bad. They will only spend money on the club when it is clear they will lose more money if they don't.

What do we do as fans?? we want to support our team, and the players, but if I am right, then what can we do? Boycott games, refuse to buy merchandise, leave the scarves at home??

And if I am wrong, then somebody else please explain the plights of the three franchise owned by MLSE in another convincing way.

Don Garber must lie awake a night fuming knowing how amazing things COULD have been in Toronto if he didn't give the new franchise to MLSE.

Not sure if there were other options at the time, but his comments from a month or two ago surely suggest his rage at MLSE's ways in this developing league.

[Section 117]

FYI Garber is the one who gave us the drunk Scot. So he is partially to blame for this shit

[boban]

Don Garber must lie awake a night fuming knowing how amazing things COULD have been in Toronto if he didn't give the new franchise to MLSE.

Not sure if there were other options at the time, but his comments from a month or two ago surely suggest his rage at MLSE's ways in this developing league.
Which comments? Any link?

[ryan]

Which comments? Any link?

It was at the first press event for the Montreal Impact


Garber openly criticized and expressed legitimate concern for teams in MLS who operate multiple sports franchises under the same banner. By his view, they are not able to solely focus on and properly allocate resources to making soccer successful in their cities.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1473-Garber-s-curious-comments-in-Montreal

[sashavukelich]

^^^ i'd like to see those comments as well

[boban]

It was at the first press event for the Montreal Impact

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1473-Garber-s-curious-comments-in-Montreal
That's fucken funny.
here he was for years kissing their ass how well they run things, now he can't stand MLSE .. LMAO.
Interesting to note this is the 3rd pro sports commissioner that has issues on how MLSE run their teams. Please MLSE, get the fuck out of all sports teams for the love of God and this city .. just get out!!!!!

[Section 117]

Yeah get out of here MLSE so we can get some individual who cares about making money and nothing else. Remember sometimes the devil you know is better then the devil you don't.

I am just saying please everyone relax. We don't know if we get a single owner what if Bell or Rogers buy the club will we really better off?? Or what if we get someone like Daniel Snyder vs getting someone like Steinbrenner??

[ryan]

Yeah get out of here MLSE so we can get some individual who cares about making money and nothing else. Remember sometimes the devil you know is better then the devil you don't.

I am just saying please everyone relax. We don't know if we get a single owner what if Bell or Rogers buy the club will we really better off?? Or what if we get someone like Daniel Snyder vs getting someone like Steinbrenner??

I believe Rogers would be a step up, not quite the step the Sabres took, but a step up none the less. The Blue Jays are evidence of that, but it's not as clear cut because winning in the MLB is a much more daunting task (considering our division) than it is in MLS.

[boban]

Yeah get out of here MLSE so we can get some individual who cares about making money and nothing else. Remember sometimes the devil you know is better then the devil you don't.

I am just saying please everyone relax. We don't know if we get a single owner what if Bell or Rogers buy the club will we really better off?? Or what if we get someone like Daniel Snyder vs getting someone like Steinbrenner??
My point is that ownership has proven time and again, in every sports holding they have, they are not qualified to own a team from a sports competition point of view.

And this sale within MLSE is a farce as far as I am concerned. When I talk of selling for MLSE, I speak of the whole 100%, not some bullshit 66%. At the very least, spin/sell off TFC separately. Someone needs to make an offer for just that team.

[AL-MO]

i heard they just spent $20 mil in a new academy.
fuck that though, let's not talk about the new training facilities.
they don't care about the future, ya know?

You can spend millions of dollars on training facilities, grass pitches, digital ad boards and the like, but none of that matters if your first team (and support of it) is not the priority. Furthermore most of that is window dressing when you consider that this club's been in disarray for 4 + years.

[gate7]

whats the record now without DeRo? just asking

[Roogsy]

You can spend millions of dollars on training facilities, grass pitches, digital ad boards and the like, but none of that matters if your first team (and support of it) is not the priority. Furthermore most of that is window dressing when you consider that this club's been in disarray for 4 + years.

Word...

[Fort York Redcoat]

The future is selling off any really talented academy players to european teams for a million here or five million there.

When this team got $5million toward its operational budget because they let a young player that they didnt even pay for, go.......



Pretty sure we're not the first team in the world to benefit from this procedure of selling youth.

But if someone can tell me how likely it is that we could've convinced Edu to stay and made it work I'd love to hear it.

[__wowza]

my point exactly redcoat.

the running of a successful youth academy means that you groom players for when you need them/in the positions you need them, and sell those you can't use at a premium.

MLSE solely be in the business of selling off academy talent may be a secondary objective, but the ultimate goal of ANY youth system is to build players cheap, and close to home, instead of buying them. this ultimately helps control your cap issues while adding depth to the squad. but yeah, if MLSE makes a few bucks in the meanwhile, i'd doubt they'd mind.
at this point, let's take the bad with the good.

[ExiledRed]

Pretty sure we're not the first team in the world to benefit from this procedure of selling youth.

But if someone can tell me how likely it is that we could've convinced Edu to stay and made it work I'd love to hear it.

cmon, Teams that do this are usually accept that they are too small to compete at the highest level and would benefit more from the cash generated from potentially star players. They are not challenging for the title.

Teams that are competing at the highest level, only sell off their academy level kids if they dont believe they'll break into their own first team.

Mo sold Edu to Rangers through his contacts, and won himself kudos from his bosses and an extension because of it, its hardly like there was a rush on for Edu, he certainly wasnt the best player on Toronto's squad when he left.

Cummins was given a shot because of his history of developing youth to a high level and bringing in piles of cash from the sale of talented youngsters:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/12/stuart-jame-on-watford-settlement

[Roogsy]

my point exactly redcoat.

the running of a successful youth academy means that you groom players for when you need them/in the positions you need them, and sell those you can't use at a premium.

MLSE solely be in the business of selling off academy talent may be a secondary objective, but the ultimate goal of ANY youth system is to build players cheap, and close to home, instead of buying them. this ultimately helps control your cap issues while adding depth to the squad. but yeah, if MLSE makes a few bucks in the meanwhile, i'd doubt they'd mind.
at this point, let's take the bad with the good.

I actually agree with this post. Hopefully the Academy will be producing a number of players well above the amount we require. If the team wants to make money selling the ones we don't need or the ones that don't fit into our team, so be it. I have no problems with that. My biggest issue with the academy is that the impact of these new resources dedicated to the academy won't be felt for many years to come. In the meantime, if the First Team does not get it's act together, all this time and money and effort spent on the academy will be a waste.

[Fort York Redcoat]

cmon, Teams that do this are usually accept that they are too small to compete at the highest level and would benefit more from the cash generated from potentially star players. They are not challenging for the title.

Teams that are competing at the highest level, only sell off their academy level kids if they dont believe they'll break into their own first team.

Mo sold Edu to Rangers through his contacts, and won himself kudos from his bosses and an extension because of it, its hardly like there was a rush on for Edu, he certainly wasnt the best player on Toronto's squad when he left.

Cummins was given a shot because of his history of developing youth to a high level and bringing in piles of cash from the sale of talented youngsters:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/12/stuart-jame-on-watford-settlement

Alright, point taken for Mo's connection being more than Edu's talent in this case but it wasn't a hard sell. For a number one pick and US National Edu has made leaps and bounds to deserving the attention that his potential was garnering and he's the first real example of selling on that we have.

I love the fact you're talking about our team as a big club level competing at the highest level but I don't see that as our short term future.

It can't be as cut and dry as other leagues. We need to sell some kids to Europe and keep as many as we can. Some of those kids that go to Europe may stop here afterwards but I still cannot see this league as a top league that can keep all the talent coming through. I hope that's not always the case.

[menefreghista]

How much money do MLS teams make on average selling players to Europe? When's the last time a Candian player was sold to Europe from a North American domestic team?

I'd say its shockingly little.

If I had the time I'd try to do a study on that.

A player like Edu is more of an anomaly.

In MLS you develop players so they play on your squad and hopefully it gives you a competitive advantage over other MLS teams. If you end up selling players that's just an extra unexpected bonus.

[Whoop]

In MLS you develop players so they play on your squad and hopefully it gives you a competitive advantage over other MLS teams. If you end up selling players that's just an extra unexpected bonus.

That's what I figured as well.

[Fort York Redcoat]

How much money do MLS teams make on average selling players to Europe? When's the last time a Candian player was sold to Europe from a North American domestic team?

I'd say its shockingly little.

If I had the time I'd try to do a study on that.

A player like Edu is more of an anomaly.

In MLS you develop players so they play on your squad and hopefully it gives you a competitive advantage over other MLS teams. If you end up selling players that's just an extra unexpected bonus.

When was the last time we had the facilities to groom selling players to Europe? It's not been prevalent therefore it never will be? A bit defeatist don't you think? It sounds like you'd prefer the Academy money to go elsewhere. It certainly wasn't the first place I'd put the money either but now that it's there I'm pretty sure that's enough to improve what the have already substantially.

[menefreghista]

When was the last time we had the facilities to groom selling players to Europe? It's not been prevalent therefore it never will be? A bit defeatist don't you think? It sounds like you'd prefer the Academy money to go elsewhere. It certainly wasn't the first place I'd put the money either but now that it's there I'm pretty sure that's enough to improve what the have already substantially.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I just think people need to temper their expectations of what an Academy will produce in terms of monetary payback. We aren't reinventing the wheel here.

Besides, that doesn't even start with the bias in Europe in buying North American players at a discount. Teams in Europe are also a lot less likely to take chances like they use to. They are always looking for bargains.

[Whoop]

Don't forget restrictions on non-EU players in some countries.

[menefreghista]

Don't forget restrictions on non-EU players in some countries.

Good point. You have to be an exceptional player to get past that.

[ExiledRed]

A player like Edu is more of an anomaly.
.

We'll see what happens to Frei.

[ExiledRed]

Good point. You have to be an exceptional player to get past that.

Or Swiss.

[menefreghista]

We'll see what happens to Frei.

I could foresee Frei signing an extension and just staying with us.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Don't put words in my mouth.

I just think people need to temper their expectations of what an Academy will produce in terms of monetary payback. We aren't reinventing the wheel here.

Besides, that doesn't even start with the bias in Europe in buying North American players at a discount. Teams in Europe are also a lot less likely to take chances like they use to. They are always looking for bargains.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I actually wanted clarification on your standpoint. Temperance is a good thing. I expect better prospects. The concept has been around a long time but not here. Not at this level of investment.

[menefreghista]

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I actually wanted clarification on your standpoint. Temperance is a good thing. I expect better prospects. The concept has been around a long time but not here. Not at this level of investment.

My opinion is that we should be aiming to develop players for our first team. I don't think there is a lot of money to be made selling players to Europe, well not as much as some people think anyways.

The talk about selling players reminds me of the total football talk.

[Fort York Redcoat]

My opinion is that we should be aiming to develop players for our first team. I don't think there is a lot of money to be made selling players to Europe, well not as much as some people think anyways.

The talk about selling players reminds me of the total football talk.

Agree. A realistic goal.

To find a player to be sold on to Europe at top dollar is a golden ticket. If we find one- fantastic but if we groom stars and leaders for our first team it's the primary goal.

[Technorgasm]

SO, Now that we hav Winter, a new coaching staff and a new system
is the message here that qwe are NOT willing to give this a chance, and build from it?

or is it jsut a general call for new ownership?

I can tell you, no matter what we do or say, MLSE will not be giving up/selling TFC.

I am very pleased with the changes that have been made and am hopefull of future progress and success, something that I have not had since the inception of this franchise.

ITs time to back the lads on teh field, and enjoy our team, our club and our football.

Thats what supporters do, they support, and take the good with the very very bad.
Results will come, . . . but not with out inspiration. . insiration is OUR responsibility.

[Beach_Red]

SO, Now that we hav Winter, a new coaching staff and a new system
is the message here that qwe are NOT willing to give this a chance, and build from it?



Some people are just wondering if that system can be built here. It may be worth noting that no other MLS team has hired Soccer Solutions to develop a system for them.

Preki was building a system, too, a boring, plodding system that turned the previous years losses into ties at best - but at least he knew it was a system he could get players who could play it.

Maybe Winter's system will be fantastic, if he can get the players to play it.

[flambe]

I am very pleased with the changes that have been made and am hopefull of future progress and success, something that I have not had since the inception of this franchise.

ITs time to back the lads on teh field, and enjoy our team, our club and our football.

agreed, my only concern is the apparent lack of interest and effort from a large bunch of our players. that for me, makes it hard to keep positive.

[Roogsy]

Some people are just wondering if that system can be built here. It may be worth noting that no other MLS team has hired Soccer Solutions to develop a system for them.

Preki was building a system, too, a boring, plodding system that turned the previous years losses into ties at best - but at least he knew it was a system he could get players who could play it.

Maybe Winter's system will be fantastic, if he can get the players to play it.


I hated Preki. But there is one credit you have to give the man, he was able to get the players to play his system within weeks. Almost right off the bat.

Here, a month and a half after the season started and 3 months after training camp and we still look like blind men in a tuna factory looking for pussy.

[Detroit_TFC]

^That's the definition of frustration, that is.

[Suds]

Some people are just wondering if that system can be built here. It may be worth noting that no other MLS team has hired Soccer Solutions to develop a system for them.

Preki was building a system, too, a boring, plodding system that turned the previous years losses into ties at best - but at least he knew it was a system he could get players who could play it.

Maybe Winter's system will be fantastic, if he can get the players to play it.

It's a fair question, but one that I think should be asked after more than 7 or 8 games. In fact, I think it will be well into next year before we can start to make a true evaluation if TFC can develop their own system and style to play.

Truth be told I get tired reading some post on here that basically amount to - we won a game, the system is great Winter is awesome OR we lost a game, the system sucks and we should fire Winter.

I knew this team would have a very tough time this year. It does not take long to see this team would not be that good regardless of what "system" was being used. Individually they make brutal mistake after brutal mistake and there is no system that will fix that. It's quite simple - we lack quality all over the pitch!

That said, I agree with the approach of developing a system/style for TFC and building the team around that. Developing players from a young age to play in that system. But people need to realize this could, and will most likely, take years.

[Yohan]

I hated Preki. But there is one credit you have to give the man, he was able to get the players to play his system within weeks. Almost right off the bat.

Here, a month and a half after the season started and 3 months after training camp and we still look like blind men in a tuna factory looking for pussy.
Because Preki's system was designed for NA style football in mind. So not much adjustment is required for most players

[Suds]

Because Preki's system was designed for NA style football in mind. So not much adjustment is required for most players

Yep. Put 9 players behind the ball, try not to get scored against, then counter by hoofing the ball down the field when you win it and try to pot a goal.

Sounds like my pub team.

[Roogsy]

Because Preki's system was designed for NA style football in mind. So not much adjustment is required for most players


I don't disagree.

So what exactly makes us think we can teach these same players who are taught that way of playing from youth and have been playing it their whole lives that way to all of a sudden learn it a completely different way and do it well? How long should that take? 1 month? 3 months? 1 year? 3 years?

[tfcleeds]

^Especially when many of said players probably aren't skilled enough to play in such a system in the first place.

[Beach_Red]

^Especially when many of said players probably aren't skilled enough to play in such a system in the first place.


Are the players on RSL good enough to play in that system? On the Galaxy? Philadelphia? How long did it take them to bring in the players good enough to make them winning teams?

[Suds]

I don't disagree.

So what exactly makes us think we can teach these same players who are taught that way of playing from youth and have been playing it their whole lives that way to all of a sudden learn it a completely different way and do it well? How long should that take? 1 month? 3 months? 1 year? 3 years?

Yeah, I think this is the problem. You cannot teach the majority of the players we have now to play in the way Winter wants them to.

The passing game, or lack thereof, has clearly exposed the lack of some basic skills in our players. The passing is nothing short of atrocious; and I'm not just talking about completing passes. Look at how many passes come to a player weighted extremely poor (too hard to too light), bouncing3 feet off the ground, poorly positioned (forcing the receiving player to stop their run or turn back for the ball).

If these guys can't pass the ball now it's likely they never will.

[Yohan]

Are the players on RSL good enough to play in that system? On the Galaxy? Philadelphia? How long did it take them to bring in the players good enough to make them winning teams?
Generally you see results in year 2... Whether Toronto supporters will have the patience to put up with shite football for the entire season remains to be seen. (remember how shitty RSL, Dallas, NY, Philly used to be?)

[Beach_Red]

Generally you see results in year 2... Whether Toronto supporters will have the patience to put up with shite football for the entire season remains to be seen. (remember how shitty RSL, Dallas, NY, Philly used to be?)

You mean will we buy season tickets for next year if the team does really crappy this year? There's little chance season ticket sales will go up from this year, just a question of how far they'll drop.

But as for seeing improvement in the team, people here are saying that this is about the best these players will ever be so if it's largely the same roster next year why would the results be any different?

Lots of teams go from losing to winning in a couple of seasons and the big question here is if this team is on the right track. Did many of those other teams implement completely new systems that they had a tough time finding players for? Or did they implement systems they knew they could get the players for?

[Heathen]

Are the players on RSL good enough to play in that system? On the Galaxy? Philadelphia? How long did it take them to bring in the players good enough to make them winning teams?

So now we should be playing like RSL, Galaxy or the Union because I thought the Winter philosophy was to move away from the way MLS teams (even the successful) ones typically play.

[TOBOR !]

FFS.

Winter arrived with a vision and a philosophy. He was faced with limititations and is working to overcome those - replace players who can't play in his system with players who can, and modify the system to reduce the impact of the players who are struggling. As the process move along, the players who struggle will be replaced with those that don't and we will then see Aron's vision unfold before our eyes.

I expect this process can take up to two to three years, considering the nebulous rules of MLS. But during that time the Academy players will have had three more years of development.

Who knows what this squad will look like by then, but I really hope we aren't so impatient that Winter gets run out of town.

[gomesv]

So now we should be playing like RSL, Galaxy or the Union because I thought the Winter philosophy was to move away from the way MLS teams (even the successful) ones typically play.

Yes please, I'll take some of the attractive possession style football of RSL, are you serious?????:rolleyes:

[Alonso]

FFS.

Winter arrived with a vision and a philosophy. He was faced with limititations and is working to overcome those - replace players who can't play in his system with players who can, and modify the system to reduce the impact of the players who are struggling. As the process move along, the players who struggle will be replaced with those that don't and we will then see Aron's vision unfold before our eyes.

I expect this process can take up to two to three years, considering the nebulous rules of MLS. But during that time the Academy players will have had three more years of development.

Who knows what this squad will look like by then, but I really hope we aren't so impatient that Winter gets run out of town.

Me to man. We have to give one coach a fair shake here. Not a single coach has been given a realistic chance here yet, like Kreis said in that article about Preki being fired, its simply not fair to give a new coach 1 year or less.

[cmonyoureds]

Touche... though my point has more to do with management of the first team
building an academy is alot easier than building a winning franchise... and that's what pays for the Academy facilities.

Why can they spend $20 million on new fields and not another $500,000 on the franchise leading scorer?

because a training facility can take on revenue generation in many ways. don't kid yourself, that was a business decision also.

[Hitcho]

wait - it's MLS. if we "sell" players, the league gets a chunk of the cash and the club have to spend a portion of what they get on the team, no? so how does MLSE profit from this academy in that model?

more likely is we get to trade young players we developed in positions we have already filled for good, established players from other MLS clubs in positions we do need, or cap space, draft picks, extra DP spot, etc.

[ExiledRed]

wait - it's MLS. if we "sell" players, the league gets a chunk of the cash and the club have to spend a portion of what they get on the team, no? so how does MLSE profit from this academy in that model?

more likely is we get to trade young players we developed in positions we have already filled for good, established players from other MLS clubs in positions we do need, or cap space, draft picks, extra DP spot, etc.

Think about this for just a second.

Somebody gives you $500 and tells you that you can only spend it on groceries.

Does this mean that you will spend the $500 on groceries, and then go and buy additional groceries with money you had already budgeted?

Or do you go and spend the money you originally put aside for groceries on something else?

[Hitcho]

Think about this for just a second.

Somebody gives you $500 and tells you that you can only spend it on groceries.

Does this mean that you will spend the $500 on groceries, and then go and buy additional groceries with money you had already budgeted?

Or do you go and spend the money you originally put aside for groceries on something else?

Sure, but I don't see why this matters. Would you rather MLSE scrapped the youth academy and spent other money it had on players, stadium improvements, etc instead? That just leaves us in a worse position since A) no young talent is being developed for use in the team and/or B) there's less money for MLSE to spend on the club overall - everybody wins.

I get that it might be saving/making them money in the bigger picture, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a potential revenue source a significant portion of which HAS to be spent on TFC, or that we've got the opportunity to develop and keep young (hopefully local) talent. I'm happy for MLSE to make some money off of that if we benefit as a club in the process.

Besides which there's an up front investment by MLSE which is likely going to take a long time to recover from this academy development plan, if they ever do (not the whole cost I know, but they must be on the hook for something).

Another benefit - improved training facilities for the first team and all reserve/youth teams.

Plus increased community use for local leagues etc.

I just don't see the downside to any of this. So what if it "saves" MLSE some money on one front (which is debatable anyway), the benefits here completely undermine any cynicism as to MLSE's motives in my book. Not that I'm an MLSE apologiser, overall they've still screwed up royally and raped the fans on prices in the process, but on this issue (and the grass going down), taken alone it's hard to knock them.

[menefreghista]

The thing is the club should be investing in an Academy anyways. It is a minimum requirement for any serious professional soccer team.

I don't like the way the Academy investment is used as a PR exercise to appease some fans.

And the dreams of constantly selling players for large sums of money are nice and all, but are not very likely in reality. The academy should be used to train future TFC starters. Anything else is a bonus after that.

And another thing, don't think MLSE hasn't thought this out. You need to think of the $20 million as a 20-year investment, not a one year lump sum. I'm sure there is something they can profit from here, whether its field rentals or even in running leagues, charging a premium using the TFC brand.

[ManUtd4ever]

The thing is the club should be investing in an Academy anyways. It is a minimum requirement for any serious professional soccer team.

I don't like the way the Academy investment is used as a PR exercise to appease some fans.

And the dreams of constantly selling players for large sums of money are nice and all, but are not very likely in reality. The academy should be used to train future TFC starters. Anything else is a bonus after that.

And another thing, don't think MLSE hasn't thought this out. You need to think of the $20 million as a 20-year investment, not a one year lump sum. I'm sure there is something they can profit from here, whether its field rentals or even in running leagues, charging a premium using the TFC brand.

I agree in principle, but in MLS, Academies are not the norm by any means. The vast majority of MLS clubs in the past have relied exclusively on the MLS Superdraft and supplemental drafts to acquire youthful prospects.

I think the siginificant investment in the new TFC Academy complex is one of the few initiatives that MLSE actually deserves credit for implementing.

[menefreghista]

Academies are not the norm by any means.

I know that. But they are becoming the norm. So I don't know why we are congratulating TFC FO for keeping up with the competition.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The thing is the club should be investing in an Academy anyways. It is a minimum requirement for any serious professional soccer team.

I don't like the way the Academy investment is used as a PR exercise to appease some fans.

And the dreams of constantly selling players for large sums of money are nice and all, but are not very likely in reality. The academy should be used to train future TFC starters. Anything else is a bonus after that.

And another thing, don't think MLSE hasn't thought this out. You need to think of the $20 million as a 20-year investment, not a one year lump sum. I'm sure there is something they can profit from here, whether its field rentals or even in running leagues, charging a premium using the TFC brand.

That sum is not the minimum requirement and regardless the vilifying of a sports club making money, any supporter would want to hear about this development news. It's up to the supporter whether this announcement overwhelms them to the point that all is right with what the club does going forward.

I don't see many supporters here taking it to that extreme.

[Gobi]

FFS.

Winter arrived with a vision and a philosophy. He was faced with limitations and is working to overcome those - replace players who can't play in his system with players who can, and modify the system to reduce the impact of the players who are struggling. As the process move along, the players who struggle will be replaced with those that don't and we will then see Aron's vision unfold before our eyes.

I expect this process can take up to two to three years, considering the nebulous rules of MLS. But during that time the Academy players will have had three more years of development.

Who knows what this squad will look like by then, but I really hope we aren't so impatient that Winter gets run out of town.

AMEN!

Tobor sane. Tobor speak sense.

I don't doubt for a second that MLSE has its own interests at heart and winning isn't among them.
But we're not even 2 months in, so let's not hang Winter just yet, ok?

[bones]

AMEN!

Tobor sane. Tobor speak sense.

I don't doubt for a second that MLSE has its own interests at heart and winning isn't among them.
But we're not even 2 months in, so let's not hang Winter just yet, ok?

I'll agree with you here to the point of saying "Winning isn't in MLSE's interest". I've heard this about the Leafs and Raps too but in a salary capped environment the only way you can make more money in a given season (once you've yanked the prices for tickets up the crack) is to have more games, aka PLAYOFFS.

FOR THIS REASON ALONE, MLSE would want a winning team. But, on top of that, keeping all those regular tickets sold is another reason and there are way too many fair weather fans in this city that need winners to cheer for.

Bones...

[ExiledRed]

there are way too many fair weather fans in this city that need winners to cheer for.

Yeah thats Toronto...... full of fairweather fans that need winners to cheer for. I say the teams should stop winning for a season and then we'd see what happens to all those fairweather glory hunting....... oh yeah, sorry.

[Hitcho]

MLSE making money from TFC per se I have no issues with, otherwise we wouldn't have a club to cheer for in the first place. The issue is how they go about it.

Some methods, like gouging your fans on ticket pricing and concession prices, are just plain wrong. They can go to hell with that and people will continue to cancel season tickets and stop coming to games if they don't reverse the trend sharpish.

But other methods, like the academy, I have no problem with - as long as they don't try and pass the cost on to us through ticket pricing. If MLSE can generate a stream of good young players (in MLS terms), keep some and sell others for profit, then that's fine by me. It's how a whole raft of football league cubs in England survive and a very important part of the the country's football fabric and national team. So this could be good for TFC, the league in general and the CMNT.

[Heathen]

Yes please, I'll take some of the attractive possession style football of RSL, are you serious?????:rolleyes:

RSL play at a tempo that I've seen no indication Winter wants us to play at, too many people around here associate high tempo attacking football with the long ball, direct does not neccessarily mean long ball it means getting the ball forward as quick as possible which is by quick passing not plodding up the field and passing it between centre-halves.