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View Full Version : Dear MLSE, CUT Season Ticket Prices



Oldtimer
05-01-2011, 05:44 AM
Dear MLSE, I'm writing to you in time before you start your annual budget-writing exercise, so you have time to factor in these thoughts, because they probably represent a significant portion of your fanbase.

I've been a season ticket holder since 2006.

Before this year, there were always people who wanted my tickets for the games I couldn't get to. Selling the odd game lowered my cost to a manageable level, even with the enormous rise in ticket prices. Now it's difficult to sell tickets, and if I manage to sell tickets at all, I can't get face value. So this raises my cost of holding season tickets.

I can easily pick up tickets at less than face, either from scalpers (who no longer "scalp," but sell cheaply tickets they pick up for cheaper from desperate sellers) or even from yourselves at various discount codes from my various community and even landlord links.

So my cost has gone up, and the marginal value (the potential true discount) of holding season tickets has gone down.

Most people who go to live soccer do so because it's an inexpensive form of entertainment (or at least, used to be). As Mr. Anselmi has stated, you are in the entertainment business. You don't have to be a genius to see that the entertainment value has also declined, both in drop in atmosphere in the matches, and the value of watching a losing team that is always rebuilding. That's why you have to give discounts, and I can't sell my tickets.

So in my estimation, the cost of season tickets are currently about 30% too high. At the real cost of tickets (about 20% below face) and the declining number of games that I can sell tickets to, that is my price point.

Even at a frozen price, the value proposition isn't there.

So if you want to keep me as a season ticket holder, you know what you need to do. You already cut prices to the Raptors this year. You will lose me as a season ticket holder unless you cut the cost of my season tickets. I'll be making my decision based on what you do.

My guess is that I won't be alone.

Sincerely yours,

Oldtimer.

Brooker
05-01-2011, 05:50 AM
I can hear it now..... "but we already gave you a price freeze!"

:rolleyes:

CretanBull
05-01-2011, 06:00 AM
I couldn't agree more OldTimer :thumbsup:

Mikey
05-01-2011, 06:03 AM
They have publicly said the team has gone back to square one, so lets have the season ticket prices back to 2007 too......

(not that even that would have me renew again.)

DOMIN8R
05-01-2011, 06:40 AM
As Ensco has stated repeatedly, STHs can't give game tickets away anymore. With higher prices, the *new* enforcement of the rules in the stadium (no streamers, no profanity, patdowns, etc.) make it less of a complete entertainment experience for the casual fan (who use to say that they liked the game day atmosphere), IMO.

I think that any sensible sports executive would say that plans for stadium expansion at BMO should be put on hold for the time being.

Pookie
05-01-2011, 07:07 AM
I agree with everything but the idea of linking the value of the ticket with a winning franchise.

Winning does not factor into the price of a ticket. It may affect secondary demand and encourage new fans to watch but should not influence the base price of a ticket.

It is a dangerous link.

koryo
05-01-2011, 07:09 AM
I agree with everything but the idea of linking the value of the ticket with a winning franchise.

Winning does not factor into the price of a ticket. It may affect secondary demand and encourage new fans to watch but should not influence the base price of a ticket.

It is a dangerous link.

Completely agreed. However, MLSE has already made that connection. Well, not with a winning franchise but with a mediocre one. I shudder to think of how greedy they'll get if this team ever starts to win.

Funnily enough, I don't see it working in the opposite direction though.

Flipityflu
05-01-2011, 07:19 AM
i wish the best of luck to you sir...i sent a similar email last year, and i'm no longer a season ticket holder.

Mikey
05-01-2011, 07:26 AM
As Ensco has stated repeatedly, STHs can't give game tickets away anymore. With higher prices, the *new* enforcement of the rules in the stadium (no streamers, no profanity, patdowns, etc.) make it less of a complete entertainment experience for the casual fan (who use to say that they liked the game day atmosphere), IMO.

I think that any sensible sports executive would say that plans for stadium expansion at BMO should be put on hold for the time being.

I think the supporters group restrictions are more to do with the direction the new marketing guy wants for TFC. The huge investment they are putting into junior development and soccer facilities needs to transfer into having a new potential group of younger supporters (and their soccer mums) coming to the games. The whole "come see the dancing fanboy experience" at BMO is done, theres no additional ticket sales to be had. And frankly, with a team this bad, having knowledgable fans is a pain in the ass.

I dont think MLSE expending the stadium has anything more to do with TFC, they want a larger venue for That NHL winter classic thingy, and to be able to host visiting international teams on summer tours, so that they can fleece fan-boys Real Madrid style on a regular basis.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 07:26 AM
Great post by the OP! I really do hope that MLSE heeds your message. I think the people running this club are dumb, but I don't think they are dumb enough to keep prices the way they are.

I've actually thought of the 'price freeze' and when you factor in not having the first home game free next year the overall prices of season tickets would actually go up next year. That being said I still don't think they can go ahead with that plan.

What I foresee is a price freeze in the south end (or at least a 10% discount) and as high as a 30% drop in the more expensive seats.


I agree with everything but the idea of linking the value of the ticket with a winning franchise.

You are right about this. The only real factor should be supply and demand and perceived value.

Unfortunately for us this is exactly why the tickets have gotten to where they are. But now its time for the prices to go in the other direction.

tfc007
05-01-2011, 07:34 AM
I agree with Oltimer 100% Ive been debating If I want to continue as a season ticket holder.I been here since day one and most likely it will be my last year here.I will follow TFC via TV like I do to the rest of The Torontos Teams.Its too bad we could have been one of the best footballing citys in north america,instead we are the joke of the MLS!Thank you again MLSE!:hulk:

Pookie
05-01-2011, 07:34 AM
Completely agreed. However, MLSE has already made that connection. Well, not with a winning franchise but with a mediocre one. I shudder to think of how greedy they'll get if this team ever starts to win.

Funnily enough, I don't see it working in the opposite direction though.

They have and a number of fans have put that idea forward too. "I'm paying this much to watch a shitty team?!?!"

To those fans, I would simply ask, does your income go up if Toronto is projected to have a good year? For the majority of us, our ability to pay for tickets is fairly constant regardless of where they are projected to finish in the standings.

Given the lack of corporate support, the bulk of our ticket support is like that.

Stick with the value arguments, such as:

- Your game day experience and the relative library that exists outside of 111-113.

- The fact that some clubs include ALL playoff games in their packages at no cost vs the fact that if TFC ever make it, you'll pay some kind of "Loyalty Premium" on top of your package

- Having access to additional tickets for friends at a discount (LA does this)

- Food and concession packages included in the price (Seattle does this)

- Parking passes (Many clubs include these)

etc


But most of all, stick with the long term disposable income of our target market and the clear indication that they are well above our comfort level (as evidenced by CCL games that go unsold, the North Stand that sits half full, approx 3,000 unsold seats every game, the real scanned attendance numbers).

Equating our pricing and ability to pay with winning is exactly the line of thinking that has led them to where we are right now.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 07:44 AM
Equating our pricing and ability to pay with winning is exactly the line of thinking that has led them to where we are right now.

That isn't really what happened though. We have been utter shit for 5 seasons now, with a possible exception of 2009 looking decent (minus the collapse).

The reasons for past price increases had more to do with pent up demand based on selling the atmosphere. This club never had any winning to sell.

Heathen
05-01-2011, 07:48 AM
...
To those fans, I would simply ask, does your income go up if Toronto is projected to have a good year? For the majority of us, our ability to pay for tickets is fairly constant regardless of where they are projected to finish in the standings.
...

It's not ability to pay that matters here. It's willingness to pay for the quality of the product and that definitely isn't going to stay constant if we pick up 7 points from the next 24

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 07:51 AM
It's not ability to pay that matters here. It's willingness to pay for the quality of the product and that definitely isn't going to stay constant if we pick up 7 points from the next 24

It does have some factor in it. Most TFC season ticket holders are either yuppies or middle class families. We don't have an endless stream of income to make up for price increases. And with what happened in the economy a few years back a lot of people aren't making a whole lot more today than they did when TFC launched. So when a lot of us look back at what we paid in 2007 and what we pay now, we start to think that maybe it wasn't such a good investment of our discretionary income.

I've also wondered if all these extra games are part of the problem as well.

ensco
05-01-2011, 08:00 AM
They have to do this, and more. MLSE are facing a general collapse of SSH demand in almost any scenario. Cutting prices isn't going to be enough, even if they do it thousands of seats will be dropped.

The number one reason to own seasons is the fear that you won't be able to get seats when the team is playing well, if you're not an SSH. This is clearly no longer an issue.
The city is so awash in TFC tickets that they would have to play well for months, or a year, before scarcity would return. So why own the seats?

MLSE have shown, with both the Leafs and Raptors, that they spend to defend the base. I'd wager that a bigtime DP is coming this summer.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 08:07 AM
I'd wager that a bigtime DP is coming this summer.

I bet we don't get one until Teachers sells their portion of MLSE.

I'm starting to think that's part of the reason De Rosario wasn't made a DP either.

They might be trying to cut costs to match the decrease in revenue.

Under new management moves like getting DP players will have to be done to start winning fans back.

ensco
05-01-2011, 08:15 AM
They might be trying to cut costs to match the decrease in revenue.


If you're right, they'll be getting 7,000 people at games next season.

They have the same issue with the SSH base x100 with the Raptors btw.

No wonder Teachers wants out.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 08:23 AM
If you're right, they'll be getting 7,000 people at games next season.

They have the same issue with the SSH base x100 with the Raptors btw.

No wonder Teachers wants out.

The Raptors have been notoriously cheap. The only way you win in the NBA is to spend above the cap (in most cases). Sure there are other factors to consider, but that is the jist of it.

Teachers sees Leafs revenues maxed out (and even a handful of boxes left unsold), Raptor and TFC revenue in decline and it is no wonder they want out. They are selling at the peak (they may have actually missed the peak). The new owner won't see increases in revenues unless the Leafs consistently go on long play off runs. But TFC and the Raptors are pretty much in a state of decline.

Globetrotter
05-01-2011, 08:26 AM
I don't they they care about whether or not you can resell your tickets, nor should they.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 08:27 AM
I don't they they care about whether or not you can resell your tickets, nor should they.

Yes they should. Season ticket holders who can't sell their extras at a reasonable price will more than likely cancel the following renewal period.

ensco
05-01-2011, 08:29 AM
I don't they they care about whether or not you can resell your tickets, nor should they.

um, every team competes directly with its SSH base to sell unsold tickets to games. That's life.

tfc2008
05-01-2011, 08:45 AM
You know when they started to think about it, when you guys STOPPED to buy beer and foods on the game, when you guys stopped to do that then you see they gone change everything

boban
05-01-2011, 09:09 AM
Dear MLSE, I'm writing to you in time before you start your annual budget-writing exercise, so you have time to factor in these thoughts, because they probably represent a significant portion of your fanbase.

I've been a season ticket holder since 2006.

Before this year, there were always people who wanted my tickets for the games I couldn't get to. Selling the odd game lowered my cost to a manageable level, even with the enormous rise in ticket prices. Now it's difficult to sell tickets, and if I manage to sell tickets at all, I can't get face value. So this raises my cost of holding season tickets.

I can easily pick up tickets at less than face, either from scalpers (who no longer "scalp," but sell cheaply tickets they pick up for cheaper from desperate sellers) or even from yourselves at various discount codes from my various community and even landlord links.

So my cost has gone up, and the marginal value (the potential true discount) of holding season tickets has gone down.

Most people who go to live soccer do so because it's an inexpensive form of entertainment (or at least, used to be). As Mr. Anselmi has stated, you are in the entertainment business. You don't have to be a genius to see that the entertainment value has also declined, both in drop in atmosphere in the matches, and the value of watching a losing team that is always rebuilding. That's why you have to give discounts, and I can't sell my tickets.

So in my estimation, the cost of season tickets are currently about 30% too high. At the real cost of tickets (about 20% below face) and the declining number of games that I can sell tickets to, that is my price point.

Even at a frozen price, the value proposition isn't there.

So if you want to keep me as a season ticket holder, you know what you need to do. You already cut prices to the Raptors this year. You will lose me as a season ticket holder unless you cut the cost of my season tickets. I'll be making my decision based on what you do.

My guess is that I won't be alone.

Sincerely yours,

Oldtimer.
While I agree with your base argument that tickets prices should drop - and drop substantially, your premise that you can't resell tickets is more than a little weak. Despite the very reality you put forward in that argument its weak in the eyes of MLSE> Who cares really if you can't resell like year 1 or 2? I don't see a lot of ears sympathizing (from the decision makers) with you on that.

CretanBull
05-01-2011, 09:25 AM
While I agree with your base argument that tickets prices should drop - and drop substantially, your premise that you can't resell tickets is more than a little weak. Despite the very reality you put forward in that argument its weak in the eyes of MLSE> Who cares really if you can't resell like year 1 or 2? I don't see a lot of ears sympathizing (from the decision makers) with you on that.

You're right, they don't care if we can resell or not - but they have to be made aware that there's a very weak demand for tickets right now and that will effect them and their ability to sell them in the near future.

People are getting about 75% of face value, and often can't even sell them at that price - we've seen plenty of 2 for 1 and even free tickets offered up in our ticket trader. Anyone who bought tickets this season thinking that they'd go to the occasional game and sell the rest just for the sake of holding on to the STH rights won't be renewing next season.

Parkdale
05-01-2011, 09:37 AM
While I agree with your base argument that tickets prices should drop - and drop substantially, your premise that you can't resell tickets is more than a little weak. Despite the very reality you put forward in that argument its weak in the eyes of MLSE> Who cares really if you can't resell like year 1 or 2? I don't see a lot of ears sympathizing (from the decision makers) with you on that.


except he's explained that he needs to sell 30% of his tickets in order to continue to attend. If his price drops to 70% of what it is now, we're good... but if not.... he will drop ALL of them and MLSE will have to sell 100% of that seat.

The issue isn't that he needs to sell part of his SSH pack, it's that there is no demand for this crappy product, and that applies equally to MLSE selling 17 games a year, or OldTimer selling 5.

If a moderator on the RPB site (with full access to ticket trader) can't find someone to take tickets at face value, then imagine how hard it is for the rest of the fans who need to unload some tickets.

For the record, I have 2 pairs of seats. One set is in 112 and I keep those. One set is in the red. I sell those two tickets to a pal for the entire season at below face value. If I didn't have a guy buying the entire season, and had to sell them at 2for1, I'd be dropping them in a heart beat.

ManUtd4ever
05-01-2011, 10:03 AM
I agree with OT, and I also agree with the notion that ticket prices shouldn't be tied to success on the pitch. I hope MLSE is sensible enough to eventually scale pricing back to 2007 levels and keep them at that level for the foreseeable future.

Alixir
05-01-2011, 10:14 AM
I wish MLSE would shit sack Anselmi....seriously the guy knows fuck all about running a football franchise. In the off season they should have started lobbing heads from the top.

TFCRegina
05-01-2011, 10:51 AM
They have and a number of fans have put that idea forward too. "I'm paying this much to watch a shitty team?!?!"

To those fans, I would simply ask, does your income go up if Toronto is projected to have a good year? For the majority of us, our ability to pay for tickets is fairly constant regardless of where they are projected to finish in the standings.

Given the lack of corporate support, the bulk of our ticket support is like that.

Stick with the value arguments, such as:

- Your game day experience and the relative library that exists outside of 111-113.

- The fact that some clubs include ALL playoff games in their packages at no cost vs the fact that if TFC ever make it, you'll pay some kind of "Loyalty Premium" on top of your package

- Having access to additional tickets for friends at a discount (LA does this)

- Food and concession packages included in the price (Seattle does this)

- Parking passes (Many clubs include these)

etc


But most of all, stick with the long term disposable income of our target market and the clear indication that they are well above our comfort level (as evidenced by CCL games that go unsold, the North Stand that sits half full, approx 3,000 unsold seats every game, the real scanned attendance numbers).

Equating our pricing and ability to pay with winning is exactly the line of thinking that has led them to where we are right now.

It's not about income, it's about your willingness to pay or the demand for tickets. If the team is consistently shitty, your willingness to pay drops, and the price that you're willing to buy tickets at drops.

Supply and Demand.

Pookie
05-01-2011, 11:05 AM
That isn't really what happened though. We have been utter shit for 5 seasons now, with a possible exception of 2009 looking decent (minus the collapse).

The reasons for past price increases had more to do with pent up demand based on selling the atmosphere. This club never had any winning to sell.

True through they did have the promise of a winning team each time the renewals went out. A new coach, a full season with JDG, the DeRo trade from Houston, etc.

That's why basing ticket prices on winning is so hard. Projections are meaningless and even if you won one year, there is no guantee you are capable of repeating. So, you can't forward price and you can't price based on history.

Much more realistic to price on the long term ability of your target market to pay and the value they receive for doing so.

mw83krk
05-01-2011, 11:11 AM
I too have had to sell tickets to matches that I cannot attend at huge discounts (below face value). I used to have a lineup of fans responding to my posts for extra tickets, now I have to offer them up for 25% below face to even garner any interest (and these are mid-gray seats)

I think the problem lies with the way TFC (and MLSE as a whole manage their business). The people who make the actual decisions are ones who have no clue about sports, rather they are individuals with strong business backgrounds who's knowledge base is balance sheets, income statements and cash flows, rather than winning sports teams. Decisions are always run through them based on what the ROI will be and what will lead to increase revenues, not increase on-pitch performance. Unfortunately, this doesn't always work in the sports and entertainment industry, as it's a totally different beast the regular business. MLSE is slowly showing that they aren't the geniuses that everyone else thought they were. Other than the Leafs, the Marlies have been a complete failure, the Raptors live of the requirements of Leafs season tickets holders, and TFC is a prime example of how MLSE mismanaged something that was a sure-fire bet.

With the majority of games being on GOLTV, must of the people I know who would go to a couple of games per year, don't have this channel and no longer casually follow the team .... they are no longer intersted. Why aren't these games more readily available?

Pookie
05-01-2011, 11:13 AM
It's not about income, it's about your willingness to pay or the demand for tickets. If the team is consistently shitty, your willingness to pay drops, and the price that you're willing to buy tickets at drops.

Supply and Demand.


At some point it is absolutely about disposable income. There is a price ceiling for all of us.

As price rises, demand drops regardless if the product.

Remember too that we are talking about season tickets, not one off games. I might be willing to pay $1000 for a ticket to the Leafs in a Cup final. But if I had to buy $1,000 tickets for all 12 home games in the playoffs, that is a different story

Azerban
05-01-2011, 11:24 AM
With the majority of games being on GOLTV, must of the people I know who would go to a couple of games per year, don't have this channel and no longer casually follow the team .... they are no longer intersted. Why aren't these games more readily available?

if you watched tfc for the first time last night, would you still be interested?

mclaren
05-01-2011, 11:26 AM
I feel for you guys. I dropped my season tickets this year and what a great decision. I can go to games very easily and cheaply (by buying tickets below face value) and watch other games online. More importantly I, and others like me, sent a strong message to MLSE.

ensco
05-01-2011, 11:59 AM
I have very good reds, and I can tell you that the market for every game (except LA) was at between 20-50% of my cost, which itself is about 20-30% less than "face".

It's a bloodbath if you need to sell better seats.

Don't forget, higher price seats make up a lot of the SSH base.

TorCanSoc
05-01-2011, 12:02 PM
I've been at 2 season tickets, up as high as 4 season tickets.. this year I dropped 3 I've kept only 1. Even though it pains me to do it..... I'm going to drop my season ticket next year.

MLSE got accolades for being a model franchise in the first three years of operations. Do they give awards for shooting the golden goose? The goose is dead..... its now just a matter of finding out who's holding the gun.

Pachuco
05-01-2011, 12:14 PM
I can't go to Wednesday's game. I'm predicting I won't get $5 bucks for that game. And I have dark Greys.

Anyway, I agree with OldTimer. The fact I can't resell my tickets for even half of face value at times is the major reason I will not renew this year unless the prices drop atleast 25% for my section. The demand for TFC tickets right now is as bad as it's ever been and it has a huge impact on the atmosphere and my ability to recoup a little bit of money to games I can't attend.

ensco
05-01-2011, 12:23 PM
I can't go to Wednesday's game. I'm predicting I won't get $5 bucks for that game. And I have dark .

This game.....is a prime example of everything that's wrong.

NASL expansion team.
Full price.
Forced on SSH.
8pm in early May.
Gametime forecast 9 degrees with 40% chance of rain.

I'm sick of it. I'm not buying tickets to the May 25 game, or CCL games if they make.

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 12:57 PM
This game.....is a prime example of everything that's wrong.

NASL expansion team.
Full price.
Forced on SSH.
8pm in early May.
Gametime forecast 9 degrees with 40% chance of rain.

I'm sick of it. I'm not buying tickets to the May 25 game, or CCL games if they make.

You can add one more to your list for the May 4th game: essentially a friendly now that we are up 3-0 after the first leg.

By the way, you already have a ticket to the May 25 game if you are a season ticket holder.

gomesv
05-01-2011, 01:12 PM
I feel for you guys. I dropped my season tickets this year and what a great decision. I can go to games very easily and cheaply (by buying tickets below face value) and watch other games online. More importantly I, and others like me, sent a strong message to MLSE.

This is exactly why I'll be dropping my Season tickets next year.... I won't lie, I'll still go to a majority of games, but by next year it will cost me half the money....:drum:

ensco
05-01-2011, 01:19 PM
You can add one more to your list for the May 4th game: essentially a friendly now that we are up 3-0 after the first leg.

By the way, you already have a ticket to the May 25 game if you are a season ticket holder.

Oh right. I got on a roll there, got all worked up.

Well, I don't like being forced to take that game too!

menefreghista
05-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Oh right. I got on a roll there, got all worked up.

Well, I don't like being forced to take that game too!

I wonder how relieved MLSE are now that there won't be any refunds for those tickets.

boban
05-01-2011, 01:40 PM
except he's explained that he needs to sell 30% of his tickets in order to continue to attend. If his price drops to 70% of what it is now, we're good... but if not.... he will drop ALL of them and MLSE will have to sell 100% of that seat.

The issue isn't that he needs to sell part of his SSH pack, it's that there is no demand for this crappy product, and that applies equally to MLSE selling 17 games a year, or OldTimer selling 5.

If a moderator on the RPB site (with full access to ticket trader) can't find someone to take tickets at face value, then imagine how hard it is for the rest of the fans who need to unload some tickets.

For the record, I have 2 pairs of seats. One set is in 112 and I keep those. One set is in the red. I sell those two tickets to a pal for the entire season at below face value. If I didn't have a guy buying the entire season, and had to sell them at 2for1, I'd be dropping them in a heart beat.
But they don't give a fuck about your demand. MLSE only cares about its demand. So to argue about rolling pricing back because of tickets holders lack of ticket demand is totally absurd.

ilikemusic
05-01-2011, 01:47 PM
The team is so bad, and has such a bad name around the city, that I dont think slashing ticket prices would really do any good.

Spending $10 to be bored out of my skull while teams pound the shit out of TFC is not that much more appealing than spending $40 to see them do it.

Pookie
05-01-2011, 02:26 PM
^ again, we are talking about ticket prices for season ticket holders. Single game ticket prices don't really matter and could be handled using "dynamic ticket pricing" to maximize the club's revenue.

A season ticket holder buys tickets, generally speaking, because they want to go to all the games guaranteed and save money off of the idea of buying them in bulk. At this point, the per game buyer is secondary to solidifying my business.

This is what I would do:

Taken to an extreme, offer the STH a per game price that is deeply discounted. Reds at $40/game as an example. Offer other "value" items like I've mentioned earlier (ie. discount off tickets for friends, parking, concessions, playoff games, etc).

They will sell out their STH base.

This creates scarcity and fuels a demand for season tickets. Of course, the season tickets are capped therefore the wait list grows. They can now leverage other brands like they did with the Marlies (and could do with the Raptors) or charge more in packages like a flex pack.

Next comes the single game seat and here is where dynamic ticket pricing comes into effect.

The price of the ticket for a single game varies depending on demand. Using that example, pricing for the red ticket might start out at $90. For a game like Edmonton on Wednesday, maybe that price drops to $60, never dropping below the STH price.

For a game like LA with Beckham, that $90 seat climbs to $150. Maximizing TFC's revenue for games that count... including home openers, playoff push games (wouldn't that be nice), latest signing games like Henry in New York, etc.

Yes, this would make the single game buyer pay more but in doing so, I've created value for my season ticket base. Further, my net revenue might paint a better picture than the one I have now. 7,000 tickets dynamically priced each and every game with the potential to leverage other brands. But none of this is possible unless there is a large and loyal STH base.

DangerRed
05-01-2011, 02:26 PM
I agree with OT, and I also agree with the notion that ticket prices shouldn't be tied to success on the pitch. I hope MLSE is sensible enough to eventually scale pricing back to 2007 levels and keep them at that level for the foreseeable future.

I think you, OldTimer and everyone else calling for a price cut will find that MLSE will respond in the same manner you have responded to my pessimism about this team's prospects: be patient! Hahahahaha.

Anyway, yeah, my friends and I are dropping three unless there's a price cut, which there will not be (they'll tell you that they've frozen prices), so I'm virtually guaranteed not to renew next year.

ensco
05-01-2011, 02:28 PM
But they don't give a fuck about your demand. MLSE only cares about its demand. So to argue about rolling pricing back because of tickets holders lack of ticket demand is totally absurd.

It's all interrelated. It's not that this affects the revenue per SSH to MLSE, but SSHs taking losses, on games they can't go to, is effectively the same thing as a price increase, to the SSHs.

RedsYNWA
05-01-2011, 02:58 PM
I have only kept 2 seats in the south end, not for next year, even if they do make the playoffs etc. My friend who dropped his pair got a pair of free tix to two games and paid 20$ each to the other 2 only missing out on the DCU game...I like that math for next year. If everyone did not renew we would be getting our tix at 50% off the current prices

DangerRed
05-01-2011, 03:03 PM
I have only kept 2 seats in the south end, not for next year, even if they do make the playoffs etc. My friend who dropped his pair got a pair of free tix to two games and paid 20$ each to the other 2 only missing out on the DCU game...I like that math for next year. If everyone did not renew we would be getting our tix at 50% off the current prices

Oh yeah - next year, when the stadium is half to three-quarters full, you'll be able to get those "family game day" packages just like elsewhere in the MLS.

This really hasn't been a killing of the golden goose. It's been its brutal dismemberment and slow torture, five years in the making.

ryan
05-01-2011, 03:04 PM
I don't want the poor play of the club to be used as a reason to lower ticket prices, cause if/when they become a strong team it only gives justification for MLSE to put the prices through the stratosphere.

Oblio2
05-01-2011, 03:53 PM
In the first few seasons...I had people clamouring to get tickets....If there were any going spare, I almost had peple rip my hands off to get them. I bought an extra pair in 127 and sold them at face value to friends, so they could go....
This season I cant GIVE tickets away. My 127's are basically unold and nobody wants to go. It shows that fan support is dropping and MLSE needs to consider this. This isn't the show it once was and when the "noisy fun supporters" leave.....you are in trouble and left with a boring, crappy game day. Coupled with an awful team...this is going to turn out very, very bad for MLSE and if they dont sort it out soon...the "Crown Jewel" of MLS will, in my opinion be gone from Toronto within 5 years

flatpicker
05-01-2011, 04:52 PM
^ I completely agree.
These are precarious times for TFC.

jabbronies
05-01-2011, 05:07 PM
Shit team or not - I'm happy I kept my season seats this year. The guys in my section are a blast! it's a good few hours of drinking with the boys and girls - However - Shit team or not - I won't be as willing to pay more for these tickets in the future.

At the end of the day, this league is mickey mouse and if the cost goes any higher, isn't worth the value that I'm paying for them. This isn't the top league in the world - I shouldn't be paying more on a per game basis than let's say - Major League baseball - which is the top league in the world!

Know your place in the market MLSE, it's not at the top, especially when you've been sitting in the basement of a bottom feeder league your whole existance.

ExiledRed
05-01-2011, 05:11 PM
JDG should put a million toward the loss

Roogsy
05-01-2011, 05:25 PM
I was "appeased" with the price freeze contingent on the team's direction and the promise of "getting it right". Since it appears their vision of "getting it right" is to make fans wait more, I would say it would be nothing short of expected for them to at LEAST extend the price freeze. THAT would be a real demonstration of their regret for "getting it wrong" initially. But I won't hold my breath. I think they pay lipservice to the loyalty fans have shown.

boban
05-01-2011, 05:52 PM
I was "appeased" with the price freeze contingent on the team's direction and the promise of "getting it right". Since it appears their vision of "getting it right" is to make fans wait more, I would say it would be nothing short of expected for them to at LEAST extend the price freeze. THAT would be a real demonstration of their regret for "getting it wrong" initially. But I won't hold my breath. I think they pay lipservice to the loyalty fans have shown.
Another freeze?
How come they could cut prices for Raptors tickets (more than once)?
Surely TFC fans deserve a price cut.

DangerRed
05-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Another freeze?
How come they could cut prices for Raptors tickets (more than once)?
Surely TFC fans deserve a price cut.

That magical "Mo Edu money" that everyone talks about ran out some time ago. Someone has to pay for the $20 mil academy facility, or for that roof that Paul Beirne tweeted about yesterday. :rolleyes: That someone, MLSE thinks, should be you.

Don't expect a cut.

Oldtimer
05-01-2011, 06:08 PM
The quality of the product on the field is only relevant because that's why it's hard for me to sell tickets, and that's why the atmosphere has declined.

Anyways, it's all about dollars and cents to me. I can get deep discount tickets, so unless my SSH cost declines to reflect that, I won't be renewing.

Also, I agree that MLSE doesn't give a crap that I can't resell my spare tickets, except that it raises my net cost to the point that I won't renew at current prices. That they care about. There's nobody to take up my season tickets if I don't renew.

BTW, a roof won't make me renew at current prices.

TFC Cityboy
05-01-2011, 06:09 PM
2 factual points to make here.

Point 1
I was in England recently and paid 70 pounds (around $110) for 2 adult & 2 kid tickets at Eastlands for Manchester City v Fulham. BMO equivalent seats would be section 106,$41x4 = $164 with no kid rate and I paid the equivalent of $6 for a pint at City.
This is for arguably the best league in the world. Contrast that to the "entertainment" value of the MLS. Oh and did I mention we were under a roof?.

Point 2
Tom Anselme was on the Soccer Show with Nigel and Bobby on Setanta on Thursday. Nigel talked about the previous night's match at Edmonton. Anselme said he missed it because he was watching the hockey.

2 factual points. No commentary from me necessary

Roogsy
05-01-2011, 06:11 PM
Another freeze?
How come they could cut prices for Raptors tickets (more than once)?
Surely TFC fans deserve a price cut.

I absolutely agree! But if I think an extended price freeze is unlikely I think you will see hell freeze over before this organization cuts prices...even though they should.

OurGame
05-01-2011, 06:11 PM
I only renew because each year since year 2 I have been able to get rid at face value..

the day I can't i won't renew .. Fuck them / if I want to go I will just walk up and go ..
team sucks and mlse killed the goose ..
greedy c&(ts

gomesv
05-01-2011, 06:14 PM
I don't want the poor play of the club to be used as a reason to lower ticket prices, cause if/when they become a strong team it only gives justification for MLSE to put the prices through the stratosphere.

It won't be the poor play of the club, it will be the realization that this club has it's core supporters and not many more casual fans to draw on, then the well will run dry

Better wise up MLSE time is running out..... I for one won't accept a freeze, only a significant reduction will do.....

DangerRed
05-01-2011, 06:24 PM
BTW, a roof won't make me renew at current prices.

Same. I come to watch a competitive team. But you won't see anybody from MLSE tweeting something like "Seattle looks good. We could definitely use a goal scorer or two."

Hamilton_Red
05-01-2011, 06:32 PM
The only option to them right now is to go out and sign at least two decent players. DP's preferably - need a CB and a striker. With the European leagues winding down their should be decent players available.

Batman
05-01-2011, 06:36 PM
I could see going down to 11-000 - 12000 SSH in 2 seasons from now if this club doesn't get it's act together both product and price wise.

CretanBull
05-01-2011, 06:46 PM
I could see going down to 11-000 - 12000 SSH in 2 seasons from now if this club doesn't get it's act together both product and price wise.

Based on last year and this season so far, I think that they'd consider anything over 5000 SSH a success.

They struggled to sell seats this year, the people who have already given up their season tickets aren't going to buy new one next year. A significant number of old season ticket holders who thought about giving up their tickets this year but didn't are probably going to give them up next year. Most new season ticket holders who got conned into buying tickets this season isn't likely coming back next season.

ryan
05-01-2011, 06:55 PM
2 factual points to make here.

Point 1
I was in England recently and paid 70 pounds (around $110) for 2 adult & 2 kid tickets at Eastlands for Manchester City v Fulham. BMO equivalent seats would be section 106,$41x4 = $164 with no kid rate and I paid the equivalent of $6 for a pint at City.
This is for arguably the best league in the world. Contrast that to the "entertainment" value of the MLS. Oh and did I mention we were under a roof?.

Point 2
Tom Anselme was on the Soccer Show with Nigel and Bobby on Setanta on Thursday. Nigel talked about the previous night's match at Edmonton. Anselme said he missed it because he was watching the hockey.

2 factual points. No commentary from me necessary


:puke:

ensco
05-01-2011, 07:05 PM
I could see going down to 11-000 - 12000 SSH in 2 seasons from now if this club doesn't get it's act together both product and price wise.

If they only drop prices 25%, they'll be lucky to have 12,000 SSH seats next year. They would have to sign a major player, to do better.

The SSH base has been cynically bled dry and taken for fools. It's coming home to roost now.

koryo
05-01-2011, 07:11 PM
They have and a number of fans have put that idea forward too. "I'm paying this much to watch a shitty team?!?!"

To those fans, I would simply ask, does your income go up if Toronto is projected to have a good year? For the majority of us, our ability to pay for tickets is fairly constant regardless of where they are projected to finish in the standings.

Given the lack of corporate support, the bulk of our ticket support is like that.

Stick with the value arguments, such as:

- Your game day experience and the relative library that exists outside of 111-113.

- The fact that some clubs include ALL playoff games in their packages at no cost vs the fact that if TFC ever make it, you'll pay some kind of "Loyalty Premium" on top of your package

- Having access to additional tickets for friends at a discount (LA does this)

- Food and concession packages included in the price (Seattle does this)

- Parking passes (Many clubs include these)

etc


But most of all, stick with the long term disposable income of our target market and the clear indication that they are well above our comfort level (as evidenced by CCL games that go unsold, the North Stand that sits half full, approx 3,000 unsold seats every game, the real scanned attendance numbers).

Equating our pricing and ability to pay with winning is exactly the line of thinking that has led them to where we are right now.

Fair enough. I don't believe in setting ticketing policy by performance myself. The only point I was making was that they were happy to set a considerable price increase in 2010 when we were no more than a middling team.

At one of the town hall meetings last fall, Anselmi was wittering on about "value proposition" this and "product experience in line with other professional teams in the city" that... you know, the usual shit they spout just before they pull down your pants and ensure you won't want to sit down at the football.

So I took a simplistic view: if MLSE are going to treat TFC strictly as a commodity, then so will I. And the bottom line (a word they understand very well), is that the value-proposition just isn't there. Not even close.

Sold my ticket and don't regret it for a minute. Christ, I can't even be arsed watching them on telly half the time.

redcard
05-01-2011, 08:28 PM
The only option to them right now is to go out and sign at least two decent players. DP's preferably - need a CB and a striker. With the European leagues winding down their should be decent players available.

i could see this happening...hopefully they are quality players...but the team will never disappear from the toronto scene...revenue sharing! if teams like dallas can exist anyone can!

ryan
05-01-2011, 08:37 PM
I think I'd need a price drop to justify me getting a pair of partial packs (cause the assholes won't give me season's where I want them)

Considering the south stands (where I'd want to be) are given away below face value in places like this, why the fuck am I giving MLSE money when I can help existing STH's move their tickets they can't use. Fuck I'd even give people face value cause it's simply the right fucking thing to do.

Roogsy
05-01-2011, 08:44 PM
Fair enough. I don't believe in setting ticketing policy by performance myself. The only point I was making was that they were happy to set a considerable price increase in 2010 when we were no more than a middling team.

At one of the town hall meetings last fall, Anselmi was wittering on about "value proposition" this and "product experience in line with other professional teams in the city" that... you know, the usual shit they spout just before they pull down your pants and ensure you won't want to sit down at the football.

So I took a simplistic view: if MLSE are going to treat TFC strictly as a commodity, then so will I. And the bottom line (a word they understand very well), is that the value-proposition just isn't there. Not even close.

Sold my ticket and don't regret it for a minute. Christ, I can't even be arsed watching them on telly half the time.

I agree with this post and nobody should blame you. I have not cut back as much as you have but I have cut back substantially. The fundamental point is something you point to in your post. Essentially this "relationship" is one way. It is not being reciprocated. We kill ourselves supporting this team and they respond with ticket price hikes and condascension in the form of Beirne and Anselmi giving us a lecture on supply and demand. Well they deserve the lesson they are getting back in return.

Whoop
05-01-2011, 09:52 PM
I have noticed they have ramped up their advertising this year in order to sell tickets.

It's still small budget stuff but they're trying.

Soon, very soon, they're going to have to try harder.

QSIM
05-02-2011, 12:12 AM
They should pay us to go to this shit.

koryo
05-02-2011, 06:26 AM
I agree with this post and nobody should blame you. I have not cut back as much as you have but I have cut back substantially. The fundamental point is something you point to in your post. Essentially this "relationship" is one way. It is not being reciprocated. We kill ourselves supporting this team and they respond with ticket price hikes and condascension in the form of Beirne and Anselmi giving us a lecture on supply and demand. Well they deserve the lesson they are getting back in return.

You're bang on Roogsy. In a way I admire everyone who's still giving their all. game in game out (or in many cases, the odd game). I just don't have it in me. I know I'll bristle when I hear things like "we deserve a winning team", only because it reminds me of "we deserve a supporters' gate".

While the latter is entitlement, the former is very true in every sense.

rviewmirror
05-02-2011, 08:46 AM
I'm with the OP. will be dropping my season tix if there is no give from MLS on the price or value. I think there are a lot of people in this same boat

billyfly
05-02-2011, 08:58 AM
You're bang on Roogsy. In a way I admire everyone who's still giving their all. game in game out (or in many cases, the odd game). I just don't have it in me. I know I'll bristle when I hear things like "we deserve a winning team", only because it reminds me of "we deserve a supporters' gate".

While the latter is entitlement, the former is very true in every sense.


LOL.....F.U. Koryo!

I WANT MY GATE

Roogsy
05-02-2011, 09:05 AM
We have one and it requires us to show up 45 minutes early in order to get physically abused. :D

Parkdale
05-02-2011, 09:07 AM
^ and maybe RUSH can play at the gate's grand unveiling

Parkdale
05-02-2011, 09:07 AM
We have one and it requires us to show up 45 minutes early in order to get physically abused. :D


at least the abuse is random. :cool:

billyfly
05-02-2011, 09:07 AM
You mock Rush?!

craigtfc
05-02-2011, 09:32 AM
Is that ticket freeze price going be with the price of the MLS cup ticket included or without that additional fee. Because if with the additional ticket price for the MLS cup it wouldn't be a price freeze we would be getting one less game.

koryo
05-02-2011, 11:37 AM
We have one and it requires us to show up 45 minutes early in order to get physically abused. :D

Haha!

EAT IT BILLYFLY!!!!

RedRum
05-02-2011, 12:23 PM
Not even a drop in ticket prices will do much now. 2 MLSE decisions came back to haunt them. 1) Not firing Mo after the year 3 NY collapse, 2) Having the gall to announce raised ticket prices at the end of last year for a team that was utter garbage and fan interest already in decline. The psychological effect this had on people was absolutely the nail in the coffin for TFC.

Sad part is the fan interest problem could be fixed within a year, but the FO is too stupid to know how to do it. Any OTTP/MLSE execs reading, shoot me a pm. My consultant fee would be reasonable :D

menefreghista
05-02-2011, 12:34 PM
Having the gall to announce raised ticket prices at the end of last year for a team that was utter garbage and fan interest already in decline. The psychological effect this had on people was absolutely the nail in the coffin for TFC.

This is a big part of the problem right now.

A lot of people say that winning cures everything, but I think once a larger chunk of your fanbase feels like they have been ripped off (for years) it is difficult to get those people back.

It was shocking how arrogant they were during last years renewal. The years of success got to their heads and they lost all sense.

ManUtd4ever
05-02-2011, 12:44 PM
This is a big part of the problem right now.

A lot of people say that winning cures everything, but I think once a larger chunk of your fanbase feels like they have been ripped off (for years) it is difficult to get those people back.

It was shocking how arrogant they were during last years renewal. The years of success got to their heads and they lost all sense.

Agreed. The issue is more about value proposition than it is about a winning product on the pitch. I'm not knocking MLS, but the reality is that knowledgeable football fans in this city realize they are paying to watch a second tier league and the ticket prices should reflect that standard of football, plain and simple.

gomesv
05-02-2011, 12:45 PM
I believe football can grow in this city, but never to anywhere near the level of hockey, therefore you need to nurture the limited fans you have or lose them.....simple as that, it's not an unlimited supply.

Parkdale
05-02-2011, 12:50 PM
I believe football can grow in this city, but never to anywhere near the level of hockey, therefore you need to nurture the limited fans you have or lose them.....simple as that, it's not an unlimited supply.


and look at how Hockey did in most of the American markets (other than original teams) after the lockout.

Nothing makes people stop believing in a sports dream faster than bad owners.

losing? we can handle that.

Parkdale
05-02-2011, 12:51 PM
You mock Rush?!

no, I mock YOU for liking Rush.

gomesv
05-02-2011, 12:54 PM
and look at how Hockey did in most of the American markets (other than original teams) after the lockout.

Nothing makes people stop believing in a sports dream faster than bad owners.

losing? we can handle that.


Absolutely, treat us fair (prices/concessions) and we will put up with rebuilding because we love this team.........:scarf:

billyfly
05-02-2011, 01:13 PM
no, I mock YOU for liking Rush.

Rush is not amused.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRW0nqX3Z7vQHNAiwN6o8ikqtXtb-thCrOkm548L2opMSYmzu1BCQ&t=1

dupont
05-02-2011, 03:19 PM
I can handle losing but what I am really angry about is how MLSE took a positive development like having tons of people ready to support a local Toronto team FINALLY... and just pissed away all the goodwill with rising ticket prices and flat out scams (like the Marlie packs).
They are pushing away what was an incredibly enthusiastic fanbase and it's just really sad to see because I was starting to get used to a local soccer club being a big deal in my hometown.

Le sigh.

CretanBull
05-02-2011, 03:47 PM
I can handle losing but what I am really angry about is how MLSE took a positive development like having tons of people ready to support a local Toronto team FINALLY... and just pissed away all the goodwill with rising ticket prices and flat out scams (like the Marlie packs).
They are pushing away what was an incredibly enthusiastic fanbase and it's just really sad to see because I was starting to get used to a local soccer club being a big deal in my hometown.

Le sigh.

That sums up my feelings perfectly.

RedRum
05-02-2011, 06:29 PM
For those that think signing a "name" DP would solve TFC's ticket selling problems, ask yourself why "the Beckham game" in 2007 was fetching $400-$500 per ticket from scalpers, while the same game this year had walk-up tickets still available for purchase the day of the game.

The road to redemption will be long and winding for MLSE as far as TFC is concerned.

wzhxvy
05-02-2011, 06:58 PM
check out ebay...tickets sell for single digits...yes tickets for tomorrow's game selling for 2 bucks...2 bucks !!! basically free...good job Paul, you business, operations and marketing visionary.

Gazza_55
05-02-2011, 07:04 PM
This is a big part of the problem right now.

A lot of people say that winning cures everything, but I think once a larger chunk of your fanbase feels like they have been ripped off (for years) it is difficult to get those people back.

It was shocking how arrogant they were during last years renewal. The years of success got to their heads and they lost all sense.

This.

But not just last years renewal but EVERY years renewal. In the history of MLS I don't think any club has raised ticket prices for their STH's in the first 4 years of existence. Especially not 50 to 85% increases. And especially when the team has sucked every year.

Seattle had a freeze for the founding STH's that just ran out this year but the increase wasn't much and they've made the playoffs and won the US Open Cup 2 years running. Maybe MLSE should have looked around the league instead of to other sports for their supply/demand model.

Alonso
05-02-2011, 07:23 PM
The quality of the product on the field is only relevant because that's why it's hard for me to sell tickets, and that's why the atmosphere has declined.

Anyways, it's all about dollars and cents to me. I can get deep discount tickets, so unless my SSH cost declines to reflect that, I won't be renewing.

Also, I agree that MLSE doesn't give a crap that I can't resell my spare tickets, except that it raises my net cost to the point that I won't renew at current prices. That they care about. There's nobody to take up my season tickets if I don't renew.

BTW, a roof won't make me renew at current prices.

Agreed completely. My renewal can't be justified if I can attend the games anyway for cheaper, and I can't sell the tickets to the games I can't attend.

A significant price cut will be the only thing that has me renewing next season. Throw in a roof, and then I might start to think that MLSE is starting to get the idea that you should go above and beyond for your supporters, not the bare minimum while racking them over the coals when times were good.

Scalpers are going to drop another significant portion of their seats too for sure after this season. MLSE has one season to turn this ship around and its this one. If they don't send the SSH's the right signals this could get real ugly for them.

OurGame
05-02-2011, 09:28 PM
check out ebay...tickets sell for single digits...yes tickets for tomorrow's game selling for 2 bucks...2 bucks !!! basically free...good job Paul, you business, operations and marketing visionary.

haha

Hitcho
05-02-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm reaching breaking point on affordability too.

Whatever MLSE might say, attendance and atmosphere is visibly and audibly down.

Make a long term decision and DROP ticket prices, while you still have a club and a supporter base to nurture.

kodiakTFC
05-02-2011, 10:34 PM
Heres a funny question. Do you think MLSE will give season ticket holders a free ticket to the NCC final?

menefreghista
05-02-2011, 11:30 PM
Heres a funny question. Do you think MLSE will give season ticket holders a free ticket to the NCC final?

Season ticket holders already have a ticket to that game.

Oblio2
05-03-2011, 07:27 AM
Tried to give, GIVE a ticket to a scalper....he refused to take it. Can't offload these things....it's like they have "Tickets Aids"

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 07:37 AM
Tried to give, GIVE a ticket to a scalper....he refused to take it. Can't offload these things....it's like they have "Tickets Aids"

Haha.

I also noticed now that Air Miles customers can get a 15% discount on TFC tickets. Seems the FO is getting desperate.

A price decrease is inevitable. The FO can't be that dumb.

flatpicker
05-03-2011, 08:04 AM
...
A price decrease is inevitable. The FO can't be that dumb.


hmmmmm.....

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 08:05 AM
hmmmmm.....

LOL. I know, I shouldn't be that presumptuous.

Pookie
05-03-2011, 08:11 AM
The scalper story and the experience we've all had trying to give away tickets convinces me that there are 2 separate issues/markets to deal with

1. Season Ticket Market (ALL games FOR ONE price)

I don't buy their season tickets numbers for a second but they do have a loyal customer base that is at (or has reached) their respective breaking point. This market wants to go to every game but to do so is an expensive proposition. Our disposable income doesn't rise in the way that ticket prices do.

The FO went after the idea that they would get a different "class" of ticket holder like they have for the Leafs. A corporate buyer or a group of friends pooling resources. The goal was that the same seat would sell for more than it would presently.

It didn't work. TFC is not that kind of product or more correctly, the corporate market for this product isn't the same. Sending clients to a game with their kids to hear "Twat, you're shit, hahha ... douchebag... " isn't necessarily the same kind of experience that they would get in the Golds at the ACC.

Going back to basics, this market wants ALL the games at a discounted rate. They will be loyal and will soak in your merchandise, spread demand by word of mouth and will provide the baseline financials that drive a business. This is the market that is in serious need of a price correction. The decision to buy is based on value, not on the prospects of the team. This is a loyal market that is very price conscious.

2. Secondary Market (the Single Game buyer)

This market has all but dried up. Seats go unsold at the gate. CCL games are 10,000+ short of capacity. Even regular MLS games are 1,000's short of capacity.

This is where the concept of a winning team actually has legs. I think it is dangerous for season ticket buyers to equate winning with their ticket prices but for single game buyers, a winning team is the gravy in the boat that will drive more butts in the seats.

And a winning product, a well hyped game (ie. one with playoff implications or simply a rivalry like Montreal or Columbus) or star visiting player can drive the single game ticket price up once they adopt Dynamic Ticket Pricing. Single game ticket prices in this model rise and fall based on demand right up until game time.

They are separate but connected. A strong Season Ticket base creates scarcity which can help drive up the demand for single game buyers. Similarly, a low season ticket base also means low single game prices and unpredictable revenue stream.

But you can't treat both markets the same in terms of pricing and thinking that they will all come back once the team is a winner is a dangerous concept, in particular for the Season Ticket market.

__wowza
05-03-2011, 08:36 AM
pooks has been saying it a lot and i totally agree with him:

I WOULD NOT PAY MORE FOR A WINNING TEAM! i'm hearing a lot of the "if they're going to jack up prices, at least give us a winning club" talk. personally, i'm not in the same boat as the rest of you. i'm not a SSH and most of the games i attend are either because i've purchased tickets of the forum, off of stubhub, or off of a friend.

i'm a different demographic. i'm part of the demographic of people that're more than happy not paying to come to the field and watch a losing team, when i can support them from the comfort of my couch with other friends. a winnning team won't change the fact that i'm not coming to games because the ticket prices are too high.

i was offered season seats this year, and i turned them down under the pretense that i could:

1) probably get them for cheaper (i was getting free tickets by the end of last season).
2) be in a position where i wouldn't be able to sell them.
3) not justify buying them for the value.


the more MLSE alienate people, the harder it's going to be to bring them back. i haven't read from one person that said it was a mistake giving up their season's tickets (although i could be mistaken).

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 08:41 AM
The FO went after the idea that they would get a different "class" of ticket holder like they have for the Leafs. A corporate buyer or a group of friends pooling resources. The goal was that the same seat would sell for more than it would presently.

It didn't work. TFC is not that kind of product or more correctly, the corporate market for this product isn't the same. Sending clients to a game with their kids to hear "Twat, you're shit, hahha ... douchebag... " isn't necessarily the same kind of experience that they would get in the Golds at the ACC.

I agree with this.

The problem I think is that the Leafs had tens of years to grow into a product that could allow for that. And even than it took a number of years for Leafs ticket to get to the point where only corporate buyers could afford season tickets.

TFC FO tried to accelerate that kind of market onto the TFC season ticket holder base. The only problem is that the core fanbase for TFC isn't big enough for that. And they aren't growing it now with continued poor results and siphoning off games to Gol TV where no one can see them.

---------

I have said this before too. A lot of fans feel they have been ripped off by this club in terms of the ticketing schemes. People who feel that way are almost impossible to get back.


I WOULD NOT PAY MORE FOR A WINNING TEAM!

I agree with you.

I hate saying this, but the only real determining factor for ticket prices should be supply and demand. Its obvious now that supply and demand should mean lower prices for season ticket holders next year. What isn't obvious is if TFC FO will actually pay attention to what is going on. For all we know they'd be happy with 7,000 season ticket holders at current prices than 15,000 at a reduced price.

MG42
05-03-2011, 08:52 AM
I just hope when MLSE gets sold the new owner clears house on the business side of TFC.

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 09:04 AM
the more MLSE alienate people, the harder it's going to be to bring them back. i haven't read from one person that said it was a mistake giving up their season's tickets (although i could be mistaken).

I'm starting to feel more and more like it was a mistake getting season tickets up this season. Everything from the cocky way they treated renewals to just the absolute failure to even get the ticket boxes shipped out to me in a downtown office tower has been annoying. And that's not even getting into the performance issues with the club.

And speaking of which, I think my buddies and I agree that we won't get seasons/pay more for them again, even if performance improves to mid-table from bottom-table. It's so easy to get tickets (now at below face) that the rationale for seasons just simply isn't there any more.

ensco
05-03-2011, 09:10 AM
^What a great series of posts. Bang, bang, bang on.

I'd just add the following causation theory: the issue is not just corporate ownership, but even more so the tiny size of TFC in the scheme of MLSE.

The business managers of TFC, since the initial success became apparent in 2007, have pushed the market hard in every direction they could, were indeed blinded to the obvious mistakes they were making, because no one upstairs cared at MLSE. TFC management will only get noticed for building something close to, or on track to, a Leafs- or Raptors-scale success.

It's truly awful to contemplate - it's not just about replacing Anselmi, or Teachers selling, because the same things will happen again even if both those things happen.

Suds
05-03-2011, 09:22 AM
The apathy among the fans is something I though I would never see.

The way things have been going, one day TFC will be a discussed in business classes everywhere as a classic case of NOT how to run a business. Let's face it, customer services is abysmal, price far out weights value, poor interactions with staff at BMO have turned many people away from the stadium, and I have not even started on the shit-show that has been the past 4 years of running the actual team club.

Now to be fair, there have been some great things like the recent announcement to expand the academy program, build the new training facilities, hiring people with real soccer accumen in the hopes they can deliver (jury still out on that one). The thing that scares the hell out of me is that TFC has screwed just about everything to date and I losing faith they can even deliver on the positive things they are working on.

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 09:27 AM
The way things have been going, one day TFC will be a discussed in business classes everywhere as a classic case of NOT how to run a business.

I was thinking that too.

TFC is starting to look a lot like the Toronto Rock, minus the winning of course.

ManUtd4ever
05-03-2011, 09:37 AM
I am actually confident that the audacity of the front office over the the last few years will prove to be beneficial to the STH base for the long term future.

My rationale is that it didn't take long for apathy to set in among the TFC fan base upon being exploited, and in the next couple of years, MLSE (or the eventual ownership successor) will realize that the Toronto Maple Leafs ticket pricing model is simply unsustainable in this city's intelligent demographic football market.

Although it won't happen immediately, I believe a price decrease is inevitable at this point, regardless of the results on the pitch. The current market trends dictate as such.

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 10:11 AM
I am actually confident that the audacity of the front office over the the last few years will prove to be beneficial to the STH base for the long term future.

My rationale is that it didn't take long for apathy to set in among the TFC fan base upon being exploited, and in the next couple of years, MLSE (or the eventual ownership successor) will realize that the Toronto Maple Leafs ticket pricing model is simply unsustainable in this city's intelligent demographic football market.

Although it won't happen immediately, I believe a price decrease is inevitable at this point, regardless of the results on the pitch. The current market trends dictate as such.

I challenge you to point to one concrete piece of evidence or historical precedent where this company is concerned that leads you to believe that "MLSE (or the eventual ownership successor) will realize that the Toronto Maple Leafs ticket pricing model is simply unsustainable in this city's intelligent demographic football market." Calling the city's football market an "intelligent" demographic is a bit much. The people on this board a lot more like Leaf fans than you (or they) think.

Pookie
05-03-2011, 10:18 AM
^ the one thing that encourages me is that they are discussing dynamic ticket pricing openly for their properties. This is where the price of the ticket never drops below the STH price but fluctuates based on availability and demand.

To make that work, they have to create demand. They don't have demand now.

The thing that discourages me is a direct comment that was made to me 3 years ago by an exec that indicated they felt that the corporate market and/or the concept of buyers pooling their resources on a season ticket was the way of the future for the season ticket base. That's a culture that will be hard to break.

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 10:24 AM
The thing that discourages me is a direct comment that was made to me 3 years ago by an exec that indicated they felt that the corporate market and/or the concept of buyers pooling their resources on a season ticket was the way of the future for the season ticket base. That's a culture that will be hard to break.

That is discouraging if true, but I think three years ago TFC was in a different reality. The stadium was packed every day and missteps were still being excused by the expansion nature of the club. We're in year five now and things are very different. And since dynamic pricing is the antithesis of the pooled resources model, you can say that their thinking has evolved. But does that mean price cuts are imminent? No.

ManUtd4ever
05-03-2011, 10:32 AM
I challenge you to point to one concrete piece of evidence or historical precedent where this company is concerned that leads you to believe that "MLSE (or the eventual ownership successor) will realize that the Toronto Maple Leafs ticket pricing model is simply unsustainable in this city's intelligent demographic football market." Calling the city's football market an "intelligent" demographic is a bit much. The people on this board a lot more like Leaf fans than you (or they) think.

I believe the evidence will present itself beyond next year's STH renewal period and in the years to follow.

As for the intelligence of football supporters in this city, I completely disagree. MLSE is going to witness first hand just how differently the ticket buying public in Toronto will respond to exploitation when it comes to watching second tier football as opposed to the NHL.

Pookie
05-03-2011, 10:33 AM
It's true. I wrote to our own exec about it. The fellow is still with the management team so while we are 5 years into it, the culture is likely still there.

Remember there was also the concept of a "Membership fee"? That would entitle access to tickets for those on the red list. That's gone away given the lack of demand.

Dynamic pricing would impact single game prices. It isn't really the anti-pooling of resources scenario unless they apply it to season ticket holders for extra games like playoffs (if we ever get there).

Beach_Red
05-03-2011, 11:15 AM
^ the one thing that encourages me is that they are discussing dynamic ticket pricing openly for their properties. This is where the price of the ticket never drops below the STH price but fluctuates based on availability and demand.

To make that work, they have to create demand. They don't have demand now.

The thing that discourages me is a direct comment that was made to me 3 years ago by an exec that indicated they felt that the corporate market and/or the concept of buyers pooling their resources on a season ticket was the way of the future for the season ticket base. That's a culture that will be hard to break.

But this is something they have shown zero ability to do. They have been able to capitalize on demand that already existed but they haven't been able to increase the damand.

The short answer, of course, is that a winning team increases demand but as people have said, only to a point. So much more goes into creating a product people want to buy.

Oh well, Canadians have never had much of a history of value-add businesses, we're still so much a 'drawers of water hewers of wood,' culture. It's not MLSE, but they may be the most obvious.

Roogsy
05-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Have you guys noticed how quiet TFC's FO has been?

I can only imagine how much they're scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I bet they still don't get it.

Beach_Red
05-03-2011, 11:25 AM
Have you guys noticed how quiet TFC's FO has been?

I can only imagine how much they're scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I bet they still don't get it.


Do you think Klinsmann is still taking their calls?

Oblio2
05-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Paul. Are you reading this?????

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 11:37 AM
Paul. Are you reading this?????

He probably is. Along with others in the FO.

But he doesn't post at all anymore. Who wants to be told by people that they are stupid or idiots or arrogant?

But I'm sure he still lurks.


Have you guys noticed how quiet TFC's FO has been?

I can only imagine how much they're scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I bet they still don't get it.

The only response by the FO in all of this was to get the news out that the most recent bad turn out wasn't as bad as it seems. Like we are all dumb and they think we still fall for their bullshit. The interesting thing is that Paul Beirne wasn't even quoted in that piece, I think it was CV2's dad.

I also wonder if they get it. I could see them believe winning will cure all and that discounts are not necessary. Try to promote the price freeze like its a good thing.

ensco
05-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Have you guys noticed how quiet TFC's FO has been?

I can only imagine how much they're scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I bet they still don't get it.

MLSE suits clearly think winning 6 of 8 makes it all go away, until it comes back. To them this thread is just rinse, repeat, yawn. They don't actually think that you ever wake up one day, and the suckers are just gone.

Maybe this is what having losing teams in every sport every year does to you.

Or maybe the cynical bastards are right.

Hitcho
05-03-2011, 11:48 AM
Not sure if this problem has been highlighted or not in the previous 5 or 6 pages, but:

People on these boards are dropping season tickets. If MLSE wants to get them back by dropping prices, then those people have to go to the back of the line, no? Which means there's probably a whole bunch of people ahead of them who are not "SG type people". And even if former SG people do get tickets back, they will likely have to start at the higher price range and not be able to afford it or refuse to pay it. SO once they're gone, they are likely gone for the long term.

And the danger in that is that the "fan atmosphere" which MLSE have so happily marketed the last few years will be driven away (or at least reduced) with no way of bringing it back. Then what do they do?

It's carpe diem for MLSE and this club. They've given us a whole series of punches over the last five years and expected us to take it on the chin (admittedly whilst putting grass down, but that was only because of unexpected demand and revenues from us the fans). Now they need to take a punch of their own, drop prices for next season and soak up the pain while they rebuild supporter trust, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

I worry about the future of this team because you just can't ever see MLSE making a decision like that for the long term...

Beach_Red
05-03-2011, 11:48 AM
^ Or maybe they just have a lower number of suckers required to stay for it to be a success. Because not every single sucker will be gone. Even the Raptors will sell some season tickets next year....

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 11:48 AM
The only response by the FO in all of this was to get the news out that the most recent bad turn out wasn't as bad as it seems. Like we are all dumb and they think we still fall for their bullshit.

My friends and I fell for their bullshit when we got seasons this year. I feel like a fool, but I really don't think we will do it again. Eight wins, unless they're in a row and followed by another eight wins, will not erase the suckage. And moreover, they're highly unlikely.

C.Ronaldo
05-03-2011, 11:49 AM
You know when they started to think about it, when you guys STOPPED to buy beer and foods on the game, when you guys stopped to do that then you see they gone change everything

3 years and counting, I have not bought a single thing at BMO

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 11:52 AM
^More than a year for me.

Hitcho
05-03-2011, 11:52 AM
It's very telling that those people on here who dropped season tickets are not struggling to get to games. That's deadly for MSLE because there's no incentive to re-purchase (or purchase if you're a new fan).

With the Leafs, the fear was always "drop tickets and you'll never get to games". Clearly that model doesn't work with TFC, so why are they still using it for pricing?

menefreghista
05-03-2011, 11:57 AM
My friends and I fell for their bullshit when we got seasons this year. I feel like a fool, but I really don't think we will do it again. Eight wins, unless they're in a row and followed by another eight wins, will not erase the suckage. And moreover, they're highly unlikely.

I have the same problem with the group I share 4 south end tickets with. We would have been better off just getting 2 and splitting them, than picking up extras as needed.

DangerRed
05-03-2011, 12:00 PM
I have the same problem with the group I share 4 south end tickets with. We would have been better off just getting 2 and splitting them, than picking up extras as needed.

It looks like next year, you won't need any and you'll be able to buy walkups wherever you please. Although I do think a fair amount of the mom-and-dad season ticket holders who would otherwise consider dropping tickets altogether will say, "well, I know they sucked in 2011, but they've frozen prices for next year, so I think i'll just hold on." I guess we'll see how well that works a year from now.

mastermixer
05-03-2011, 12:00 PM
This thread is group thereapy for me right now.

I wish there was a way to send this thread to the front office... post by post.

Beach_Red
05-03-2011, 12:08 PM
It looks like next year, you won't need any and you'll be able to buy walkups wherever you please. Although I do think a fair amount of the mom-and-dad season ticket holders who would otherwise consider dropping tickets altogether will say, "well, I know they sucked in 2011, but they've frozen prices for next year, so I think i'll just hold on." I guess we'll see how well that works a year from now.

For many of those "Mom and Dad" ticket holders the fact that TFC was a "hot ticket" in town meant more than wins and losses. This is Toronto, afterall. They renewed for a few years because there was no other way to gurantee getting in to the games. Now that you can just walk up and buy tickets it's more like a Jays game, you might go a couple of times a year but you don't need to invest in seasons to guarantee that.

jimmyjazz
05-03-2011, 03:33 PM
At the town hall last year I made basically the same comments as those that started this post to Paul Beirne / Tom Anselmi, and asked them to organize things to allow the rpb to sit together.

Paul Beirne scoffed at me. Said "we cant do that".

I dropped my 6 seasons seats. Dont expect I will be back for a long time (until the owners massively lower prices).

Jim

Wull
05-03-2011, 04:01 PM
Have you guys noticed how quiet TFC's FO has been?

I can only imagine how much they're scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. I bet they still don't get it.

http://www.515117.com/the-simpsons-season-4-episode-17-last-exit-to-springfield/

19 minutes in

boban
05-03-2011, 04:46 PM
I just hope when MLSE gets sold the new owner clears house on the business side of TFC.
MLSE is not being sold. OTPP is selling its share.

boban
05-03-2011, 04:49 PM
it's not just about replacing Anselmi, or Teachers selling, because the same things will happen again even if both those things happen.

To quote you again Esco ....

Bang, bang, bang on.

Alonso
05-03-2011, 07:06 PM
At the town hall last year I made basically the same comments as those that started this post to Paul Beirne / Tom Anselmi, and asked them to organize things to allow the rpb to sit together.

Paul Beirne scoffed at me. Said "we cant do that".

I dropped my 6 seasons seats. Dont expect I will be back for a long time (until the owners massively lower prices).

Jim


They can do whatever they want. They own the team. It's incredibly short sighted of them to disregard there base of support so easily.

If they want the fans to come back they should nuture the atmosphere that the supporters create as part of the solution.

This includes the approach Seattle took with there supporters groups and sections. If they want to right the ship, they would take the North end call it the supporters section and make sure that we had some control over it to fill it with RPB's, NEE's, etc. NO SCALPERS IN THAT SECTION. ALL SUPPORTERS ALL THE TIME. NO FAMILIES OR PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SIT.

AND they would do it a discounted price from what they are priced at now because that price point from that vantage point in just insane.

Macksam
05-03-2011, 10:54 PM
and look at how Hockey did in most of the American markets (other than original teams) after the lockout.

Nothing makes people stop believing in a sports dream faster than bad owners.

losing? we can handle that.
It's odd you say that. Most teams did reasonbly well at the gate after the NHL lockout. The MLB lockout in 1994 lost a lot of casual fans though.

MG42
05-04-2011, 07:11 AM
MLSE is not being sold. OTPP is selling its share.


yeah , exactly, it's being sold...the majority share...being sold...hence the company...to a new owner...reportedly..carry on

menefreghista
05-04-2011, 07:27 AM
yeah , exactly, it's being sold...the majority share...being sold...hence the company...to a new owner...reportedly..carry on

And it will inevitably lead to a change in upper management. That always happens in these kinds of corporate changes.

jimmyjazz
05-04-2011, 04:31 PM
If they want the fans to come back they should nuture the atmosphere that the supporters create as part of the solution.

This includes the approach Seattle took with there supporters groups and sections. If they want to right the ship, they would take the North end call it the supporters section and make sure that we had some control over it to fill it with RPB's, NEE's, etc. NO SCALPERS IN THAT SECTION. ALL SUPPORTERS ALL THE TIME. NO FAMILIES OR PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SIT.

AND they would do it a discounted price from what they are priced at now because that price point from that vantage point in just insane.


Bang on from my perspective.

Jim

Nicholas982
05-05-2011, 12:52 AM
yeah , exactly, it's being sold...the majority share...being sold...hence the company...to a new owner...reportedly..carry on


I tried explaining that to him a few weeks back in another thread. :picard:

__wowza
05-05-2011, 10:20 AM
i saw a really weird sign whilst i was watching the game last night. there was something akin to

"text + issue + location"

is that specific to security? or is it a general suggestion box for BMO? it was really confusing to say the least without any sort of clarification.

C.Ronaldo
05-05-2011, 10:21 AM
Whats the waiting list at now MLSE? HAHA

douchebags messed it all up

teachers need to sell now.....for the sake of my retirement plan. get rid of MLSE while you still can

Roogsy
05-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Somebody at MLSE let me in on a secret that even the Leaf ST list has taken somewhat of a hit. I was surprised.

Wull
05-05-2011, 10:36 AM
i saw a really weird sign whilst i was watching the game last night. there was something akin to

"text + issue + location"

is that specific to security? or is it a general suggestion box for BMO? it was really confusing to say the least without any sort of clarification.


It's for issues like broken seats, security concerns etc.

Suds
05-05-2011, 10:43 AM
Somebody at MLSE let me in on a secret that even the Leaf ST list has taken somewhat of a hit. I was surprised.

It's not a surprise to me. In fact, many major sports teams across North America are seeing hit to tickets sales and season seats in all sports. There are all kinds of factors and theories as to why, but I think there are 2 key ones.

Tickets prices have skyrocketed in the last decade in all form of entertainment. Buyers can't go to everything so they are being more selective. The second is competition for those bums in seats. Me being a SSH for TFC means I do not buy Leafs, Raptors, Argos, or Jays tickets anymore. I only go if I get tickets given to me. I also love going to concerts which I do less now as well.

ensco
05-05-2011, 10:50 AM
I don't know, but based on the Leafs FO behaviour towards someone I know who let their Leaf seats go last year....I believe the Leafs have a problem in the boxes, platinums and golds, which is a large percentage of revenues. Reds and the upper bowl are fine, I'd wager.

SSH price for a pair of golds for the Leafs is now more than $20,000 a year.

Leafs also have a huge hole in TV revenues that's not totally obvious. TV revs for more successful teams are up 50-100% in last 5 years, Leafs are up much less. Last year only maybe 10 Leaf games were shown nationally on HNIC, which has to be a record.

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 10:56 AM
Somebody at MLSE let me in on a secret that even the Leaf ST list has taken somewhat of a hit. I was surprised.

Good. More people need to vote with their wallets. Even if you're a diehard fan, stop going to the games, and watch the games on TV instead. That's what I've done with TFC this season.

They make a microscopic fraction of money off of one TV viewer, compared to what they make selling you a $150+ ticket, and $40+ worth of concessions.

I'm a big Leaf fan, but I won't be buying a ticket until they demonstrate that the franchise has turned a corner, top to bottom. I like the path TFc are on under Winter, but I'm still not going to reward the ownership with my money until they deliver some results.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 10:57 AM
I don't know, but based on the Leafs FO behaviour towards someone I know who let their Leaf seats go last year....I believe the Leafs have a problem in the boxes, platinums and golds, which is a large percentage of revenues. Reds and the upper bowl are fine, I'd wager.

SSH price for a pair of golds for the Leafs is now more than $20,000 a year.

Leafs also have a huge hole in TV revenues that's not totally obvious. TV revs for more successful teams are up 50-100% in last 5 years, Leafs are up much less. Last year only maybe 10 Leaf games were shown nationally on HNIC, which has to be a record.

MLSE admitted a couple of years ago that luxury boxes weren't consistently sold out for the Leafs any more. Not sure about actual seats.

- Scott

Beach_Red
05-05-2011, 11:02 AM
MLSE admitted a couple of years ago that luxury boxes weren't consistently sold out for the Leafs any more. Not sure about actual seats.

- Scott

They started advertising them on TV. I hope what we're seeing is a change in sports, moving away from luxury boxes and corporate seats and back to individual customers.

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 11:04 AM
They started advertising them on TV. I hope what we're seeing is a change in sports, moving away from luxury boxes and corporate seats and back to individual customers.

We can hope. The loudest Leafs games every year, are those preseason games where Coca-Cola buys out all the tickets, and gives them away to actual Leafs fans.

Nothing more depressing than watching a regular season game, and seeing the lower bowl half-empty until the mid-period mark, because all of the rich casual STH's are still in the halls doing who knows what.

- Scott

ryan
05-05-2011, 11:10 AM
We can hope. The loudest Leafs games every year, are those preseason games where Coca-Cola buys out all the tickets, and gives them away to actual Leafs fans.

Nothing more depressing than watching a regular season game, and seeing the lower bowl half-empty until the mid-period mark, because all of the rich casual STH's are still in the halls doing who knows what.

- Scott

My Wife worked for a company who owned a nice pair of golds, one day she was given a pair to give to me.

My buddy and I went down, and the 2 ladies beside us were surprised to see people in the seats, said rarely is anyone actually there.

I found out that the tickets are usually given away, but the businessmen usually just go to the bar in the west end of the arena.


What a waste. I'm by no means a Leafs fan, but the seats are fantastic and it makes me sad as a sports fan in general to know that they are practically wasted seats of such good quality every game.

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 11:22 AM
What a waste. I'm by no means a Leafs fan, but the seats are fantastic and it makes me sad as a sports fan in general to know that they are practically wasted seats of such good quality every game.

I'd love to see a policy where, if you're a Leafs STH, you have to use your seats a certain number of games per year or they refuse to let you renew them.

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to go yourself, but it would at least get rid of a lot of the corporate STH's that use their seats as nothing more than an occasional client wooing tool.

- Scott

dupont
05-05-2011, 11:26 AM
My brother has to go to Leaf games with lawyers from his work. He wants to watch the game SO BAD but apparently the lawyers just want to sit in some weird restaurant area where you can't see the game. So he has to just sit there with them missing the entire game. That must be so frustrating!

DangerRed
05-05-2011, 11:29 AM
Not a Leaf fan, but got an interesting story. My company has a box from which I've seen three games now and another time I had a couple seats given to me about 8 rows back from centre ice.

(The box seats are never for just the game. They're work. You're working either with clients or working schmoozing with co-workers.)

Anyway, I took my wife to the centre-ice game. We get to the seats, we notice most people around us are wearing suits and/or fur coats for the ladies. Some guy ordered pad thai. Pad fucking thai, I thought. At a hockey game. Wow.

So these two kids show up the row in front of us and start cheering like mad. They're having a great time, maybe a little drunk, but still enjoying themselves.

This lasts about 5 minutes. A fur-coat wearing woman sitting next to the teenagers turns to them and says, where did you get these tickets? One kid replies "Oh, they're my dad's. Mr Smith." Woman replies: "Oh, I know Mr. Smith. I know him very well" totally implying she's going to tell on these two. The kids shut up for the rest of the game, killing the last vestige of audible cheering around me. Seriously, the section was silent except for murmurs of conversation between the men in suits.

I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.

menefreghista
05-05-2011, 11:33 AM
I don't know, but based on the Leafs FO behaviour towards someone I know who let their Leaf seats go last year....I believe the Leafs have a problem in the boxes, platinums and golds, which is a large percentage of revenues. Reds and the upper bowl are fine, I'd wager.

SSH price for a pair of golds for the Leafs is now more than $20,000 a year.

Leafs also have a huge hole in TV revenues that's not totally obvious. TV revs for more successful teams are up 50-100% in last 5 years, Leafs are up much less. Last year only maybe 10 Leaf games were shown nationally on HNIC, which has to be a record.

And to me this explains why Teachers are getting out. Revenue continues to decrease. Its no wonder they can't get their asking price. Who would look at their books and pay it? All three of their major properties are in decline.

The Leafs are suffering from being out of the play offs too many years, coupled with the new economic reality. For some companies holding Leafs seasons just isn't worth it anymore. Especially when you are trying to cut costs in so many other parts of your business. It doesn't look good to be frivolously entertaining clients while asking your employees to suck it up and live without pay raises.

I think Beach Red is onto something with the end of the corporate ticket. We will see that trend continue, for the betterment of the average fan.

And to bring this back to TFC, I think next year they are going to have to make the NCC games free for season ticket holders.

ensco
05-05-2011, 11:38 AM
And to bring this back to TFC, I think next year they are going to have to make the NCC games free for season ticket holders.

This isn't even remotely close to enough. They have to do this and a lot more.

menefreghista
05-05-2011, 11:41 AM
This isn't even remotely close to enough. They have to do this and a lot more.

I agree.

They can probably get away with freezing prices in the south end (but with free NCC tickets of course). That would mean about $323 for a south end season ticket. A big difference than the $433 they tried last renewal.

But they absolutely have to move down on the prices for the higher end tickets, and not just by a little.

Roogsy
05-05-2011, 11:47 AM
Not a Leaf fan, but got an interesting story. My company has a box from which I've seen three games now and another time I had a couple seats given to me about 8 rows back from centre ice.

(The box seats are never for just the game. They're work. You're working either with clients or working schmoozing with co-workers.)

Anyway, I took my wife to the centre-ice game. We get to the seats, we notice most people around us are wearing suits and/or fur coats for the ladies. Some guy ordered pad thai. Pad fucking thai, I thought. At a hockey game. Wow.

So these two kids show up the row in front of us and start cheering like mad. They're having a great time, maybe a little drunk, but still enjoying themselves.

This lasts about 5 minutes. A fur-coat wearing woman sitting next to the teenagers turns to them and says, where did you get these tickets? One kid replies "Oh, they're my dad's. Mr Smith." Woman replies: "Oh, I know Mr. Smith. I know him very well" totally implying she's going to tell on these two. The kids shut up for the rest of the game, killing the last vestige of audible cheering around me. Seriously, the section was silent except for murmurs of conversation between the men in suits.

I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.


Brutal. Imagine that. Kids cheering at a sports event. What neanderthals! :rolleyes:

DangerRed
05-05-2011, 11:47 AM
I agree.

They can probably get away with freezing prices in the south end (but with free NCC tickets of course). That would mean about $323 for a south end season ticket. A big difference than the $433 they tried last renewal.

But they absolutely have to move down on the prices for the higher end tickets, and not just by a little.

Totally agree. With the MLS Cup foisted on us last year, me and my buddies are paying $750 EACH for light greys. Read that sentence twice. It makes NO SENSE.

Shakes McQueen
05-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Brutal. Imagine that. Kids cheering at a sports event. What neanderthals! :rolleyes:

I would be livid if I witnessed that conversation.

- Scott

DangerRed
05-05-2011, 11:53 AM
I would be livid if I witnessed that conversation.

- Scott

I was more surprised, to be honest, given my low level of interest in the Leafs. My wife and I looked at each other in shock, as if to ask whether this was really happening. It was crazy.

I never did find out how much an order of pad thai costs at a Leaf game, though...:D

Roogsy
05-05-2011, 11:54 AM
I was more surprised, to be honest, given my low level of interest in the Leafs. My wife and I looked at each other in shock, as if to ask whether this was really happening. It was crazy.

I never did find out how much an order of pad thai costs at a Leaf game, though...:D


Be glad you didn't. Food at the ACC is ridiculously priced.

menefreghista
05-05-2011, 11:55 AM
Totally agree. With the MLS Cup foisted on us last year, me and my buddies are paying $750 EACH for light greys. Read that sentence twice. It makes NO SENSE.

Its even worse when you consider what we paid in season 1.

Pookie
05-05-2011, 12:12 PM
The Leafs are suffering from being out of the play offs too many years, coupled with the new economic reality. For some companies holding Leafs seasons just isn't worth it anymore. Especially when you are trying to cut costs in so many other parts of your business. It doesn't look good to be frivolously entertaining clients while asking your employees to suck it up and live without pay raises.



... it's not only the question of optics but the question of law. I'm in sales in the Health Care industry and the notion of "entertainment" in order to advance a sale is now completely taboo. That goes from pharmaceuticals to devices to virtually anyone selling to a Health Care Professional/Organization.

The corporate market is undergoing significant change. For MLSE, their price point means that as that market declines they will feel it.

That said, the Personal Seat License which expires if you fail to renew your Leaf tickets gives them some degree of insulation against a massive drop in renewals.

TFCRegina
05-05-2011, 12:22 PM
And to me this explains why Teachers are getting out. Revenue continues to decrease. Its no wonder they can't get their asking price. Who would look at their books and pay it? All three of their major properties are in decline.

The Leafs are suffering from being out of the play offs too many years, coupled with the new economic reality. For some companies holding Leafs seasons just isn't worth it anymore. Especially when you are trying to cut costs in so many other parts of your business. It doesn't look good to be frivolously entertaining clients while asking your employees to suck it up and live without pay raises.

I think Beach Red is onto something with the end of the corporate ticket. We will see that trend continue, for the betterment of the average fan.

And to bring this back to TFC, I think next year they are going to have to make the NCC games free for season ticket holders.

Revenue isn't decreasing for the leafs, it's just the opportunity cost is rising for owning the Leafs. The rate of return isn't growing as fast as it used to which means that other investments are better relative to the Leafs.

Revenues for TFC and the Raptors are obviously down.

__wowza
05-05-2011, 01:11 PM
It's for issues like broken seats, security concerns etc.


and those pesky kids with flares. drats and curses!! :flare:

ManUtd4ever
05-05-2011, 01:43 PM
This isn't even remotely close to enough. They have to do this and a lot more.


I agree.

They can probably get away with freezing prices in the south end (but with free NCC tickets of course). That would mean about $323 for a south end season ticket. A big difference than the $433 they tried last renewal.

But they absolutely have to move down on the prices for the higher end tickets, and not just by a little.


Totally agree. With the MLS Cup foisted on us last year, me and my buddies are paying $750 EACH for light greys. Read that sentence twice. It makes NO SENSE.

Agreed on all points.

ManUtd4ever
05-05-2011, 02:00 PM
Not a Leaf fan, but got an interesting story. My company has a box from which I've seen three games now and another time I had a couple seats given to me about 8 rows back from centre ice.

(The box seats are never for just the game. They're work. You're working either with clients or working schmoozing with co-workers.)

Anyway, I took my wife to the centre-ice game. We get to the seats, we notice most people around us are wearing suits and/or fur coats for the ladies. Some guy ordered pad thai. Pad fucking thai, I thought. At a hockey game. Wow.

So these two kids show up the row in front of us and start cheering like mad. They're having a great time, maybe a little drunk, but still enjoying themselves.

This lasts about 5 minutes. A fur-coat wearing woman sitting next to the teenagers turns to them and says, where did you get these tickets? One kid replies "Oh, they're my dad's. Mr Smith." Woman replies: "Oh, I know Mr. Smith. I know him very well" totally implying she's going to tell on these two. The kids shut up for the rest of the game, killing the last vestige of audible cheering around me. Seriously, the section was silent except for murmurs of conversation between the men in suits.

I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.

True enough. Last night some fucking tourist sitting in the row behind me in my section actually had the nerve to ask me and my buddy if we could sit down. I said sorry, this is a supporters section, if you have a problem, take it up with security.

Suds
05-05-2011, 02:05 PM
Revenue isn't decreasing for the leafs, it's just the opportunity cost is rising for owning the Leafs. The rate of return isn't growing as fast as it used to which means that other investments are better relative to the Leafs.

Revenues for TFC and the Raptors are obviously down.

Bang on.

Pookie
05-05-2011, 02:07 PM
Totally agree. With the MLS Cup foisted on us last year, me and my buddies are paying $750 EACH for light greys. Read that sentence twice. It makes NO SENSE.

The funny thing is that it isn't just the $750. It's the $750 plus the CCL games + MLS Cup playoffs + Friendlies.

A season ticket holder wants to get to ALL games for one price. We know that if TFC ever make the playoffs, we'll be treated to special loyalty pricing (read: marked up) for the right to go.

So, your $750 puts you in the top tier of the league with pricing in Seattle and LA.

Except in LA, they include:

Guaranteed Seats For 17 Regular Season Games + Bonus Games
The LA Galaxy will play 17 regular season home games in 2011, plus up to three bonus games that are included in the full season package. Bonus games have previously included matches against Real Madrid, Chelsea, AC Milan, Barcelona, Glasgow Rangers, and Boca Juniors, as well as MLS Cup Championship games.

Factor those free additional games into the package and yep, you are left scratching your head as to the "value" we get.

ryan
05-05-2011, 02:09 PM
True enough. Last night some fucking tourist sitting in the row behind me in my section actually had the nerve to ask me and my buddy if we could sit down. I said sorry, this is a supporters section, if you have a problem, take it up with security.

There was 7,000 empty seats.....

:picard:

manitou22
05-05-2011, 02:28 PM
Somebody at MLSE let me in on a secret that even the Leaf ST list has taken somewhat of a hit. I was surprised.
True. I'm a Leafs ST holder. I was able to improve my seats (purples) before the 2009-10 season. The rep told me they were "shocked" by the number of people who didn't renew.

C.Ronaldo
05-06-2011, 08:43 AM
... it's not only the question of optics but the question of law. I'm in sales in the Health Care industry and the notion of "entertainment" in order to advance a sale is now completely taboo. That goes from pharmaceuticals to devices to virtually anyone selling to a Health Care Professional/Organization.

The corporate market is undergoing significant change. For MLSE, their price point means that as that market declines they will feel it.

That said, the Personal Seat License which expires if you fail to renew your Leaf tickets gives them some degree of insulation against a massive drop in renewals.

This is true

corps are taking a much more conservative mind frame when it comes to spending. Its not all about revenues anymore, the bottom line needs to be Black

Couchy81
05-06-2011, 10:55 AM
The problem with Leaf games is they designed the sections wrong. The platinums have their own boxes, and obviously people want to be in their boxes since they're paid for, so they will be in their seats less. If MLSE thought it through, they would have exclusive seats with boxes lining the upper ring of the lower bowl, and have normal tickets the rest of the way down to the ice. That way the real fans fill up the sections visible on TV closest to the ice, and the corporate folks are out of sight in the upper sections of the lower bowl - which is still a great vantage point.

As for BMO, the ticket prices are ridiculous, and definitely keeping casual supporters away in the thousands. Doesn't MLSE know that it's better for them to have tickets priced at the point where the stands fill up, so they make a ton of money on concessions? Better for everyone.

tfcleeds
05-06-2011, 11:02 AM
Not a Leaf fan, but got an interesting story. My company has a box from which I've seen three games now and another time I had a couple seats given to me about 8 rows back from centre ice.

(The box seats are never for just the game. They're work. You're working either with clients or working schmoozing with co-workers.)

Anyway, I took my wife to the centre-ice game. We get to the seats, we notice most people around us are wearing suits and/or fur coats for the ladies. Some guy ordered pad thai. Pad fucking thai, I thought. At a hockey game. Wow.

So these two kids show up the row in front of us and start cheering like mad. They're having a great time, maybe a little drunk, but still enjoying themselves.

This lasts about 5 minutes. A fur-coat wearing woman sitting next to the teenagers turns to them and says, where did you get these tickets? One kid replies "Oh, they're my dad's. Mr Smith." Woman replies: "Oh, I know Mr. Smith. I know him very well" totally implying she's going to tell on these two. The kids shut up for the rest of the game, killing the last vestige of audible cheering around me. Seriously, the section was silent except for murmurs of conversation between the men in suits.

I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.

Man, that story is depressing. Cheering at a sporting event, the very idea!

Just shows what the atmosphere at the ACC has become. These people should be at the fucking opera instead of the Leafs game.

gomesv
05-06-2011, 11:17 AM
Not a Leaf fan, but got an interesting story. My company has a box from which I've seen three games now and another time I had a couple seats given to me about 8 rows back from centre ice.

(The box seats are never for just the game. They're work. You're working either with clients or working schmoozing with co-workers.)

Anyway, I took my wife to the centre-ice game. We get to the seats, we notice most people around us are wearing suits and/or fur coats for the ladies. Some guy ordered pad thai. Pad fucking thai, I thought. At a hockey game. Wow.

So these two kids show up the row in front of us and start cheering like mad. They're having a great time, maybe a little drunk, but still enjoying themselves.

This lasts about 5 minutes. A fur-coat wearing woman sitting next to the teenagers turns to them and says, where did you get these tickets? One kid replies "Oh, they're my dad's. Mr Smith." Woman replies: "Oh, I know Mr. Smith. I know him very well" totally implying she's going to tell on these two. The kids shut up for the rest of the game, killing the last vestige of audible cheering around me. Seriously, the section was silent except for murmurs of conversation between the men in suits.

I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.


Maybe Mr Smith's kids need to grow a set, they should've told that douche to shut her trap.......:facepalm:

C.Ronaldo
05-06-2011, 11:26 AM
i would have asked her to go back to the country club and shove it.

i mock the sit downers all the time at BMO. its fun. until you get the old guy that cant stand :/

menefreghista
05-06-2011, 11:51 AM
Don't worry, other than 111-113 and 127 BMO Field is headed in the same direction as the ACC.

tfcleeds
05-06-2011, 11:58 AM
^Expect pad thai to be on the menu for 2012.

JonO
05-06-2011, 12:00 PM
i mock the sit downers all the time at BMO. its fun. until you get the old guy that cant stand :/
By mocking those who choose to support differently to you, you are basically doing the same thing that woman did - look down on others...

Hitcho
05-06-2011, 12:13 PM
I left that night being thankful for what we have at BMO, as broken as it can be sometimes.

Shitty thing to witness, but couple of reasons why i wouldn't worry too much about BMO going the same way: 1) NHL games have never had the kind of atmosphere you can expect (or hope for these days!) at a TFC game so cheering loudly stands out a lot more and 2) you're looking at the most conservative part of a conservative atmosphere at ACC, ie worst case scenario. At TFC games, there should always be the freedom to chant and cheer without being glared at, and fucked if I would let someone tell me to shut up at a TFC game (assuming no vulgarity, unfair abuse etc being thrown!). Comes down to expectations. Fur coat lady EXPECTED a quiet section to be a prissy, pompous cow in. TFC fans do not expect that, or shouldn't.


True. I'm a Leafs ST holder. I was able to improve my seats (purples) before the 2009-10 season. The rep told me they were "shocked" by the number of people who didn't renew.

I am not shocked. Hockey isn't bullet proof, even in Canada's biggest city with a team like the Leafs. You screw over ANY fan base badly enough and for long enough and eventually you will lose them. Add in austere economic times and that process will accelerate. I don;t expect half empty games at the ACC, but the days of 10,000% demand for seats and waiting list positions are gone (for now at least). Another Toronto team that MLSE has screwed over. Way to go guys!

Hey - what are the odds of MLSE taking over the Crew if they get kicked out of the Toronto scene through any sale by the teachers? :D

__wowza
05-06-2011, 12:23 PM
By mocking those who choose to support differently to you, you are basically doing the same thing that woman did - look down on others...

http://www.gamertagpics.com/users/a/As/AshleySmashleyy/okay_meme_tf2_version_by_jaymewes-d2y3ud5.jpg

Pookie
05-06-2011, 06:31 PM
Don't worry, other than 111-113 and 127 BMO Field is headed in the same direction as the ACC.

.. by design

mdc 77
05-07-2011, 10:22 AM
Don't worry, other than 111-113 and 127 BMO Field is headed in the same direction as the ACC.

Except not sold out, minus the sushi and (yes mostly losing) but without the tradition of an almost 100 year old club? yes just like it.

menefreghista
05-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Except not sold out, minus the sushi and (yes mostly losing) but without the tradition of an almost 100 year old club? yes just like it.

While all valid points, I was talking about atmosphere...

mdc 77
05-07-2011, 10:34 AM
While all valid points, I was talking about atmosphere...

You think? I don't think that will ever happen. I think you'll always have supporter groups in the two corners creating any atmosphere, the trouble might be they are the only sections in the stadium that are. Like most MLS stadiums.

Red Rat
05-08-2011, 08:35 PM
MLSE read on.
Yesterday we had no flags in the stadium and soon enough drums will not make into the stadium. TRN is non existent, U-Sector was not able to get flags in and us well just two flags. Nee did better.
So MLSE here is to your policy, soon you will hear a pin drop. I know that you remember the lack of sound coming from your supporters, maybe we should not make ourselves heard again.

two thumbs up for you!!!

ryan
05-08-2011, 09:54 PM
MLSE read on.
Yesterday we had no flags in the stadium and soon enough drums will not make into the stadium. TRN is non existent, U-Sector was not able to get flags in and us well just two flags. Nee did better.
So MLSE here is to your policy, soon you will hear a pin drop. I know that you remember the lack of sound coming from your supporters, maybe we should not make ourselves heard again.

two thumbs up for you!!!

I certainly noticed the lack of them.