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View Full Version : Do you think JDG's performing better this season



Oldtimer
04-25-2011, 01:14 PM
How do you think he's doing?

ArmenJBX
04-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Miles better than last season.
Julian de Guzman makes an obvious difference in our midfield; it's clear that his quality and skillset is beneficial to our style of play.

His assist on Toni Tchani is exactly what we need from de Guzman consistently, and his breakup of opposition's plays has been far better this year as well.

Whoop
04-25-2011, 01:22 PM
Better... but still not DP quality in my opinion.

And I like the guy.

Wull
04-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Better... but still not DP quality in my opinion.

And I like the guy.

This. He's keeping me off his back at the moment but I expect more the fitter he gets and the more people adapt to the system.

Roogsy
04-25-2011, 01:26 PM
I think the style suits him better. I don't quite see him playing better necessarily.

__wowza
04-25-2011, 01:50 PM
i have to go back to the game last season, you know, the game after he purposely dodged the ball being shot at him when he was in the wall resulting in a goal.

the game afterwards, he was playing like he had something to prove. he arguably had his best game as a red. if you cut his DP money and made him earn it back, you'd see a completely different JDG. till then, he'll get up to fitness and continue under-performing for a DP. im not saying hes not good, but he's never made me say "fuck, he killed himself that game!"

how bad is it when i can't say something about a DP that i've said for obi white?

wzhxvy
04-25-2011, 02:06 PM
Better... but still not DP quality in my opinion.

And I like the guy.

Yes agree with this and my sentiments as well.

ryan
04-25-2011, 02:06 PM
At the end of the season, he'll go down as our best player of the year.

Everyone else can just be a hater.

If you don't think he's worth 350K, or whatever the DP cap hit (cause the rest of his salary is of NO RELEVANCE to a fan) then you're mad.

Pachuco
04-25-2011, 02:17 PM
I thought he was phenomenal our last game and in general, I do think he's performing better.

Having said that, I wouldn't pay DP money to a guy as one dimensional as him. I truly believe you can find DPs that can be comparable from a defensive standpoint but can also join in the attack (Something JDG seriously lacks). His assist on Saturday was real nice, but that's also as rare as it gets for JDG.

I prefer big strong DMs in this league (Shalrie Joseph) or guys who will punish a player for holding on to the ball too long (Osvaldo Alonso). In both cases though I expect DMs to be able to join in the attack and make threating passes every once in a while.

So although he's playing better, unless he takes a massive pay cut I just can't see how JDG stays on this team beyond his contract.

Hustle
04-25-2011, 02:24 PM
^This argument about any wage above 350k being no relevance to the fan does not float in my opinion. There is ALWAYS a limit to the resources avaialable to sign players. If JDG takes 1.7m of those resources, it means less is available for the next possible 2nd or third dp signing. That is important to me as a fan. Just because the cap hit is 350k, doesn't mean we shouldnt be concerned that he eats another 1.35m of money that he isnt worth.

Otherwise, you might as well say pay him 5million a year, because whats the difference?

It matters.

ryan
04-25-2011, 02:29 PM
^This argument about any wage above 350k being no relevance to the fan does not float in my opinion. There is ALWAYS a limit to the resources avaialable to sign players. If JDG takes 1.7m of those resources, it means less is available for the next possible 2nd or third dp signing. That is important to me as a fan. Just because the cap hit is 350k, doesn't mean we shouldnt be concerned that he eats another 1.35m of money that he isnt worth.

Otherwise, you might as well say pay him 5million a year, because whats the difference?

It matters.

Really, cause money is an issue for 2 Billion dollar MLSE?

TFC turns a profit, LA Galaxy does not.

TFC spending a couple million on DP's.
LA Galaxy spending what...11 million?

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that JDG is impacting our ability to spend whatever money MLSE wants based on those facts?


Would you like to tell me how much it matters over a 14 dollar pint?

Pachuco
04-25-2011, 02:31 PM
^This argument about any wage above 350k being no relevance to the fan does not float in my opinion. There is ALWAYS a limit to the resources avaialable to sign players. If JDG takes 1.7m of those resources, it means less is available for the next possible 2nd or third dp signing. That is important to me as a fan. Just because the cap hit is 350k, doesn't mean we shouldnt be concerned that he eats another 1.35m of money that he isnt worth.

Otherwise, you might as well say pay him 5million a year, because whats the difference?

It matters.

Exactly. It's retarted to think that it's ok to overpay a player just because only a certain amount counts towards the cap. I guess in none capped leagues like baseball no Toronto fan should ever complain about an overpaid baseball player :rolleyes:.

Sorry but an overpaid player is an overpaid player, and fans will never hesitate to point it out when they think a player isn't worth the amount of money he makes.

ryan
04-25-2011, 02:36 PM
Exactly. It's retarted to think that it's ok to overpay a player just because only a certain amount counts towards the cap. I guess in none capped leagues like baseball no Toronto fan should ever complain about an overpaid baseball player :rolleyes:.

Sorry but an overpaid player is an overpaid player, and fans will never hesitate to point it out when they think a player isn't worth the amount of money he makes.

His first impression was poor due to poor play and an injury.

Add in the fact that the majority of people who watch this team can't even see his value because it's either score or you're useless, and this argument is a lost cause.

He's forever overpaid to the masses, even if he has a career year. I don't expect to win that argument if that were the case.

However, to say he's not justifying a 350K hit, when he's one of very few players on this team who can pass a ball without having 20,000 people hold their breath, I mean come on.

Pachuco
04-25-2011, 02:36 PM
Really, cause money is an issue for 2 Billion dollar MLSE?

TFC turns a profit, LA Galaxy does not.

TFC spending a couple million on DP's.
LA Galaxy spending what...11 million?

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that JDG is impacting our ability to spend whatever money MLSE wants based on those facts?


Would you like to tell me how much it matters over a 14 dollar pint?

You argument is that since MLSE can afford it, they should just go ahead and overpay JDG. That would be borderline idiotic for them to do. I wonder what the teacher's pension fund would think about how you would run a football team.

ryan
04-25-2011, 02:44 PM
You argument is that since MLSE can afford it, they should just go ahead and overpay JDG. That would be borderline idiotic for them to do. I wonder what the teacher's pension fund would think about how you would run a football team.

You do not interpret my words correctly.

I saying no way does his salary impact the financial decisions MLSE could make, so I don't see why a fan should give a shit about his paid salary.

What impacts our roster is his cap hit, his DP slot and his national status (which as a non international is a bonus IMO)

His ability to move the ball without playing into a disaster of a turnover is clearly underrated by some forum members.

Pachuco
04-25-2011, 03:00 PM
You do not interpret my words correctly.

I saying no way does his salary impact the financial decisions MLSE could make, so I don't see why a fan should give a shit about his paid salary.

What impacts our roster is his cap hit, his DP slot and his national status (which as a non international is a bonus IMO)

His ability to move the ball without playing into a disaster of a turnover is clearly underrated by some forum members.

And I'm telling you that as a fan I give a shit about having overpaid players on the team. Whether it be Jacob Peterson making too much money or JDG making too much money. You are to simplistic in your assessment of why you don't care how much money JDG makes. It's all about return on investment, as I know that impacts:

* MLSE's decisions to sign other big money players
* The value of ticket prices
* What other players think and feel when another player on the team is severley overpaid and how that impacts the dynamics of the team.

But anyway, I'm not telling you that you should care about how much money he makes. I personally care he's overpaid, and it doesn't matter what you say, you'll never convince me that I shouldn't care with simplistic arguments like that.

ryan
04-25-2011, 03:03 PM
And I'm telling you that as a fan I give a shit about having overpaid players on the team. Whether it be Jacob Peterson making too much money or JDG making too much money. You are to simplistic in your assessment of why you don't care how much money JDG makes. It's all about return on investment, as I know that impacts:

* MLSE's decisions to sign other big money players
* The value of ticket prices
* What other players think and feel when another player on the team is severley overpaid and how that impacts the dynamics of the team.

But anyway, I'm not telling you that you should care about how much money he makes. I personally care he's overpaid, and it doesn't matter what you say, you'll never convince me that I shouldn't care with simplistic arguments like that.

Point 1, I disagree with and have given evidence as to why. What's yours?
Point 2, Again I disagree, MLSE is a money hungry beast, with or without on field/court/ice production. The proof for that is obvious.
Point 3 Only a selfish cunt would take that stance, too bad there's no place for them on our roster.

You can call me simple all you want, at least I'm taking the time to provide supporting reason to my argument while you're just coming off as butthurt that DeRo is gone.

Pachuco
04-25-2011, 03:09 PM
Point 1, I disagree with and have given evidence as to why. What's yours?
Point 2, Again I disagree, MLSE is a money hungry beast, with or without on field/court/ice production. The proof for that is obvious.
Point 3 Only a selfish cunt would take that stance, too bad there's no place for them on our roster.

You can call me simple all you want, at least I'm taking the time to provide supporting reason to my argument while you're just coming off as butthurt that DeRo is gone.

What evidence have you given? the fact that MLSE is a 2 Billion dollar coporation so they can afford overpaying a player? come on man. What MLSE is worth is irrelevant. How much money they have is irrelevant. Rich people don't get rich buy throwing their money away. On top of that, TFC isn't worth 2 billion, MLSE is. Julia De Guzman is employed by the league and by MLSE. Which is why once again I've proven your argument is way to simplistic.

and what the fuck does Dero have to do with this?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-25-2011, 03:14 PM
Really, cause money is an issue for 2 Billion dollar MLSE?

TFC turns a profit, LA Galaxy does not.

TFC spending a couple million on DP's.
LA Galaxy spending what...11 million?

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that JDG is impacting our ability to spend whatever money MLSE wants based on those facts?


Would you like to tell me how much it matters over a 14 dollar pint?

Amen brother! Fully agree

TFCREDNWHITE
04-25-2011, 03:17 PM
What evidence have you given? the fact that MLSE is a 2 Billion dollar coporation so they can afford overpaying a player? come on man. What MLSE is worth is irrelevant. How much money they have is irrelevant. Rich people don't get rich buy throwing their money away. On top of that, TFC isn't worth 2 billion, MLSE is. Julia De Guzman is employed by the league and by MLSE. Which is why once again I've proven your argument is way to simplistic.

and what the fuck does Dero have to do with this?

He controls our midfield! His cap hit is completely worth it! Weather he gets 1.1 mill or 1.7 mill who cares! JDG is king in these parts

Belfast_Boy
04-25-2011, 03:21 PM
I think it's pretty much the same.

he hasn't got better. it's the fans understanding of a defensive mid that has.

but like Vic said he's still not worth the $.

ryan
04-25-2011, 03:22 PM
What evidence have you given? the fact that MLSE is a 2 Billion dollar coporation so they can afford overpaying a player? come on man. What MLSE is worth is irrelevant. How much money they have is irrelevant. Rich people don't get rich buy throwing their money away. On top of that, TFC isn't worth 2 billion, MLSE is. Julia De Guzman is employed by the league and by MLSE. Which is why once again I've proven your argument is way to simplistic.

and what the fuck does Dero have to do with this?

My evidence is that they spend 25% of the same amount of money on their DP's as the LA Galaxy do, while LA is losing money and we are profiting. Clearly TFC has more room to maneuver financially.

MLSE as a whole (not just TFC) makes what, (rough guess but I believe I'm in the ballpark) 80-100M in profits a year? While the TFC component of MLSE could fall into the red, MLSE as a whole could still be way ahead with TFC having a much bigger payroll.

MLSE chooses to turn a profit with TFC and spend less. It's their choice! They aren't hamstrung by player contracts, they CHOOSE to do this. They just invested 30M into a development academy, again, they have money and choose what to do with it. JDG is NOT impacting ANYTHING with TFC's finances.

The DeRo angle comes from the New York Red Bull in your avatar and your 3rd point in your previous post.

ryan
04-25-2011, 03:24 PM
I think a fair question that should be asked, is: "Is JDG worth a 350K cap hit"

And I also don't think it should be asked until this season is over. There are far too many variables that have effected his (and the entire team's) performance in the past couple years.

There are no more excuses this year, but at the same time (and judging by the poll) people seem to agree he's played better. This implies that his injury and the team disarray of years past have impacted his ability to perform, as JDG has said himself.

But again, I personally don't think it's truly fair to assess until this season is through.

Stryker
04-25-2011, 04:24 PM
He's playing better, but is still a bust as a DP. And by that I mean he should be having a more positive impact to be burning up that much of the cap and a DP slot.

Wull
04-25-2011, 04:29 PM
If you want to change the question; yes he's playing better, no he's not been worth the $350k cap hit so far this season

69Chevy396
04-25-2011, 04:35 PM
If DeRo wasn't traded. If MLSE signed another goal scoring threat as a DP, then JDG's improved play this year would have some meaning. As it stands, the team is worse than last year, will likely miss that playoffs again, and that is all that matters. I would rather have DeRo and another scoring DP on the roster than two JDGs. Shit, he is better than last year, but this barely moves him up to average among MLS holding midfielders. Cronin, in my estimation, was just as good as JDG, why did we get rid of him?

ExiledRed
04-25-2011, 04:56 PM
At the end of the season, he'll go down as our best player of the year.

Everyone else can just be a hater.

If you don't think he's worth 350K, or whatever the DP cap hit (cause the rest of his salary is of NO RELEVANCE to a fan) then you're mad.

This is twice youve said this, and it bugs me. Of course their fee is relevant.

JDG uses a DP Slot, and draws money from the operational budget that could be used on stronger players. Im pretty sure that there is a limit to what we'll spend on DP's and right now JDG's fee represents a reduction in how much were prepared to pay another DP.

If MLSE is going to spend big money and pay someone above the cap, we want to know that player is worth it, because they dont do this often.

Also, For 350k we could get two players that might actually have an impact on this club, and we'd still have that DP slot left.

Suds
04-25-2011, 05:03 PM
I'd say after the limited playing time JDG has seen this year it's too early to tell.

Similar to why I'm holding off my decision on how well the new coaching staff is doing until at least half way through the season, I think I'll do the same with each player. Any player can have a few good or bad games. Being bale to play well consistently is the key and to date I don't think enough games have been played.

JDG had one of his best games on Saturday, however, his past performances were sub-par so that's not saying much. He's had a game or two better than last year. When it's multiple games better than last year I'll more than willing to give him his due.

ManUtd4ever
04-25-2011, 05:07 PM
JDG has executed admirably within Winter's tactical style of play this season. I have noticed a marked improvement in his ball distribution and defensive presence. He seems more motivated this season as well, possibly because he feels the need to step up in DeRo's absence, and he believes in the system in which he's being deployed.

Is he DP worthy? I don't think he has justified it yet, but if he can continue to improve throughout the season, become a defensive midfield anchor, and display offensive creativity consistently, perhaps he will make a convincing argument this season.

ryan
04-25-2011, 05:27 PM
This is twice youve said this, and it bugs me. Of course their fee is relevant.

JDG uses a DP Slot, and draws money from the operational budget that could be used on stronger players. Im pretty sure that there is a limit to what we'll spend on DP's and right now JDG's fee represents a reduction in how much were prepared to pay another DP.

If MLSE is going to spend big money and pay someone above the cap, we want to know that player is worth it, because they dont do this often.

Also, For 350k we could get two players that might actually have an impact on this club, and we'd still have that DP slot left.

What you're saying isn't exactly truth. How can the excess beyond the cap for JDG be used on stronger players? Teams have a salary cap, that's all you can spend, a whopping 2.7M. DP money is for the DP player, it cannot be spread around a team as you imply. You can't put that 1.7M into the roster, you simply CANNOT, unless it's into another DP.

So sure whatever, ditch JDG and his 350K salary hit and go get us 3 more Jacob Peterson's, cause that's what 100K and change gets you. Looking forward to that starting 11.

We have 2 more DP slots, so making a case that he's wasting a slot when we have 2 available is rather silly.

Toronto spent 1M on Mista last year with JDG on the roster, but somehow this year JDG is preventing us from spending that same million we're no longer using? Really? And ticket prices went down too, didn't they? :facepalm:

There's no proof that he's limiting our ability to get other DP's, nothing stopped us from bringing Stevanovic on loan and Mariner has suggested himself that he's going to be active during the next transfer window. Surely doesn't sound like he's limited at all.

The proof will come in July. I'm not going to bicker about this any longer, you'll see when the time comes.

Yohan
04-25-2011, 05:30 PM
the argument for DPs would make sense when we have better idea what TFC's salary cap situation is like

Wull
04-25-2011, 05:33 PM
Where are these reduced prices?

habstfc
04-25-2011, 05:35 PM
This is twice youve said this, and it bugs me. Of course their fee is relevant.

JDG uses a DP Slot, and draws money from the operational budget that could be used on stronger players. Im pretty sure that there is a limit to what we'll spend on DP's and right now JDG's fee represents a reduction in how much were prepared to pay another DP.


This argument would have more validity if we had 3 dp's and JDG was the worst of all of them. DP's aren't exactly breaking down the door to come play here.

brad
04-25-2011, 06:04 PM
What you're saying isn't exactly truth. How can the excess beyond the cap for JDG be used on stronger players? Teams have a salary cap, that's all you can spend, a whopping 2.7M. DP money is for the DP player, it cannot be spread around a team as you imply. You can't put that 1.7M into the roster, you simply CANNOT, unless it's into another DP.

None of us can answer this because none of us know what goes on behind closed doors at the MLSE. You may be right. Or it may be that we have a certain budget for DP salaries over and above the cap, and that is most we are willing to spend.

That could be preventing us from bringing in DP's. Again, we will never know.


So sure whatever, ditch JDG and his 350K salary hit and go get us 3 more Jacob Peterson's, cause that's what 100K and change gets you. Looking forward to that starting 11.Give me Beckerman, Wondolowski and 50k of cap space to spare and I'd say we have improved our team substantially over just having JDG.

There is a lot of quality talent in this league at lower prices - I suggest you look into the player salaries a bit.


Toronto spent 1M on Mista last year with JDG on the roster, but somehow this year JDG is preventing us from spending that same million we're no longer using? Really? And ticket prices went down too, didn't they? :facepalm:Again, we don't know the status of things behind the scenes. The profit model may have changed with the current state of the team and the fact that MLSE are selling the club.

ExiledRed
04-25-2011, 08:35 PM
What you're saying isn't exactly truth. How can the excess beyond the cap for JDG be used on stronger players? Teams have a salary cap, that's all you can spend, a whopping 2.7M. DP money is for the DP player, it cannot be spread around a team as you imply. You can't put that 1.7M into the roster, you simply CANNOT, unless it's into another DP.

You're not gett ing the point. The money available for DP's (whatever the amount is) isnt an infinite pool of cash. There's a limit to what will be spent and right now JDG is taking up some or maybe even all of that limit, To put it in simple terms, if JDG wasnt the DP, we might have a better one.



So sure whatever, ditch JDG and his 350K salary hit and go get us 3 more Jacob Peterson's, cause that's what 100K and change gets you. Looking forward to that starting 11.

There's other posters on this forum who are more likely to find the examples, but I'll bet I can find a player getting less than $175k on every team on this league who would have more impact than JDG has had.


We have 2 more DP slots, so making a case that he's wasting a slot when we have 2 available is rather silly.

Right, and it may not be wise to use more than one DP when it has such an impact on the roster. 3 DP's would limit the rest of the squad considerably, even 2 would make it difficult.



Toronto spent 1M on Mista last year with JDG on the roster,
but somehow this year JDG is preventing us from spending that same million we're no longer using? Really? And ticket prices went down too, didn't they? :facepalm:

Dont use the facepalm, it has the opposite effect on me from what you were intending. It makes me think that you're not sharp. Mista was a mistake of the highest order. Last year we had four players making over 1.2m between them, and our resulting lack of depth was exposed badly.



There's no proof that he's limiting our ability to get other DP's,
There's no proof that he's not, but there is direct evidence that signing another DP would limit the roster we have considerably.



The proof will come in July. I'm not going to bicker about this any longer, you'll see when the time comes.

JDG hasnt made an impact since he got here, but OK, I guess in July we'll see that he's been the glue holding this amazing team together all along.

ExiledRed
04-25-2011, 08:39 PM
This argument would have more validity if we had 3 dp's and JDG was the worst of all of them. DP's aren't exactly breaking down the door to come play here.

The argument is valid, if you think that 3 DP's is too much of a risk and would limit the roster considerably. Imagine you buy 3 dps, two get injured for a third of the season each (likely) and the other is a flop (also likely).

You're done, You have no depth and you have to pay the rest of the team a pittance, while you have three guys making a fortune for shit. (and thats just great for the morale of the hardworkers, just ask DeRo)

Whoop
04-25-2011, 08:47 PM
The crazy thing even though I don't think JDG is DP quality (I like him but he's not the right DP for TFC) there are a lot of DPs in the MLS are pretty shit right now.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1568-Designated-Player-Roundup-Week-6

I mean Andres Mendoza? And Branko Boskovic hasn't done much since last season.

You have to get the right DP... a young guy who wants to prove himself, like Fredy Montero or the right guy like Alvaro Saborio. It's like exiled has said, you need the right guy with the right attitude.

TFCRegina
04-25-2011, 08:49 PM
Can't wait for Carts to chime in.

ExiledRed
04-25-2011, 08:58 PM
Can't wait for Carts to chime in.

Ask him if we should try and get Joe Cole as DP

habstfc
04-25-2011, 09:51 PM
Right, and it may not be wise to use more than one DP when it has such an impact on the roster. 3 DP's would limit the rest of the squad considerably, even 2 would make it difficult.

There's no proof that he's not, but there is direct evidence that signing another DP would limit the roster we have considerably.

I don't totally disagree with what you are saying but N.Y. and L.A. don't seem to have cap problems, but that's another story.

ag futbol
04-25-2011, 09:55 PM
We have 2 more DP slots, so making a case that he's wasting a slot when we have 2 available is rather silly.

I believe the economic term "opportunity cost" comes to mind.

Whoop
04-25-2011, 09:56 PM
In a cap system you have to account for every dollar.

Cristiano14
04-25-2011, 10:32 PM
His first impression was poor due to poor play and an injury.

Add in the fact that the majority of people who watch this team can't even see his value because it's either score or you're useless, and this argument is a lost cause.

He's forever overpaid to the masses, even if he has a career year. I don't expect to win that argument if that were the case.

However, to say he's not justifying a 350K hit, when he's one of very few players on this team who can pass a ball without having 20,000 people hold their breath, I mean come on.

I really disagree with that last bit, he has screwed up quite a number of passes before and I do find myself in some degree of nervousness when he's about to play a ball.

Any he is overpaid regarless of the cap or how you look at it.

having said that I think he is playing better and was great last game, I hope he keeps getting better as he comes to fitness.

brad
04-25-2011, 11:17 PM
I don't totally disagree with what you are saying but N.Y. and L.A. don't seem to have cap problems, but that's another story.

MLS will bend the rules to ensure success in the biggest markets. NY in particular - which is the biggest market for sport in North America and completely untapped by the MLS.

DichioTFC
04-25-2011, 11:30 PM
JDG is performing much better. Nobody really mentioned it, but JDG had that beautiful chip pass on Tchani's goal last Saturday. That's his main capability, vision and tactical ability. Its too bad what he does isn't as quantifiable as easily as goals are.

Skinner
04-26-2011, 01:07 AM
If DeRo wasn't traded. If MLSE signed another goal scoring threat as a DP, then JDG's improved play this year would have some meaning. As it stands, the team is worse than last year, will likely miss that playoffs again, and that is all that matters. I would rather have DeRo and another scoring DP on the roster than two JDGs. Shit, he is better than last year, but this barely moves him up to average among MLS holding midfielders. Cronin, in my estimation, was just as good as JDG, why did we get rid of him?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions....but respectfully, this is a ridiculous statement

jloome
04-26-2011, 01:35 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions....but respectfully, this is a ridiculous statement

Yeah, I love Sam Cronin, think he's going to be a great MLS guy for years. But ability and reading the game, DeGuzman's on a whole different level.

Cashcleaner
04-26-2011, 07:35 AM
I think Whoop summed it up best for me. JDG is certainly playing better, but I would stay he's still performing below his pay grade.

In his defence, injuries will always skew people's perception, though.

Davenport
04-26-2011, 07:52 AM
He's a decent MLS midfielder on crazy money. Thanks Johnston.
He has improved but that wasn't hard after his 2010 performances.

Oldtimer
04-26-2011, 08:21 AM
I think he's performing up to his cap hit, and certainly better than last year.

Robbo was around $300k, JDG is certainly at least that skilled, and he appears to me more skilled.

If he performs like last game or better over a period of time, then we can start discussing DP-quality value, at least for a holding midfielder. (Whether having a DP HM without a DP-striker to pair him to is entirely yet another discussion).

levyashin
04-26-2011, 09:25 AM
he has gone from $ 50,000 to $80,000 .if he did not have d.p. next to his name he would be on the bench next to gargan,peterson,harden,et al.

Oldtimer
04-26-2011, 09:28 AM
^ now that is patently ridiculous.

ManUtd4ever
04-26-2011, 09:31 AM
^ now that is patently ridiculous.

Some posts aren't even worth responding to...

Maltese Falcon
04-26-2011, 10:48 AM
he has gone from $ 50,000 to $80,000 .if he did not have d.p. next to his name he would be on the bench next to gargan,peterson,harden,et al.
Clearly you haven't watched him live my friend. When he's on his game he wins every ball in mid and distributes it well across the pitch. The problem last year is that Preki was moronic and the team wasn't deep enough. Too many games he would be playing on the right wing or as an attacking mid, thats not his role. If he's used for what he's good at he has the skill to shine. Don't forget he probably still isn't match fit, but he played great against Columbus and if he keeps up that form I don't think there will be the need for a thread like this.

Wull
04-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Can the Canadian contingent take their maple leaf glasses off for a second? Regardless of shit tactics and teammates, last year he shat out of tackles, let players run by unchallenged, never adapted his passing to deal with his surroundings, got bundled off the ball and dumped on his ass all too often. No one else can take the blame for that but him.

He's been a complete bust up until now and a few decent games (not great, decent) don't suddenly make it someone else's fault or him worth the cap hit, overall salary and the issues it's caused go away.

Carts
04-26-2011, 10:59 AM
I thought he was very good against Columbus, but far from 'great' and far from 'DP worthy'...

His over-the-top touch-ball for our goal is the skill and poise we need from him...

BUT, we need that all-game, not a 'flash of class'...

Prior to that goal - he had the ball on the top corner of the box, great run in by Peterson, JDG alone with service = 5-yards over a leaping Peterson and fell to nobody...

Minutes later, from the mid, JDG sent a over the top ball to the outside for Martina. The result "The Flash" couldn't of caught it and it went to touch for a goal kick...

He's looks better within the system, MUCH BETTER, but I don't see this AMAZING, GREAT, DP STATUS mid that others do...

He needs his "flashes of class" to not be "flashes" but to he "his play". And then when things go wrong, its a rare occurrence - not the other way around...

He's currently a solid squad member - but definitely not irreplaceable in the starting XI as we develop and move forward with transfer targets...

Carts...

Gazza
04-26-2011, 11:40 AM
he has gone from $ 50,000 to $80,000 .if he did not have d.p. next to his name he would be on the bench next to gargan,peterson,harden,et al.

Also, he IS the reason Tchani got sent off, if we're being honest here.

Dreadlocks
04-26-2011, 11:48 AM
I think this board is way to hard on the guy. He is our best player imo and is getting better each match. When a player is rounding into form it doesn't happen over night. You start to see improvements bit by bit each match peaking at the start of the final 3rd of the season.

However, I can't defend his performance last year or the previous season but based on his (and others) comments this year, it's a much more suitable environment now and he should succeed - and to me he has shown this idea to be accurate....so far.

Dreadlocks
04-26-2011, 11:54 AM
Also, he IS the reason Tchani got sent off, if we're being honest here.

If you are being serious with that statement then you are saying that you would rather let a player come to our home field and literally try to kick one of our players legs clean off and nobody do anything about it?

C'mon man - the ref and assistants got it wrong - not JDG. He was sticking up for his team mate and that shows leadership; yet another quality he apparently lacks!

Gazza
04-26-2011, 12:01 PM
If you are being serious with that statement then you are saying that you would rather let a player come to our home field and literally try to kick one of our players legs clean off and nobody do anything about it?

C'mon man - the ref and assistants got it wrong - not JDG. He was sticking up for his team mate and that shows leadership; yet another quality he apparently lacks!

C'mon man, if JDG doesn't send that quality pass through to Tchani, Thcani can't slot it home and celebrate in the crowd.

He knew what he was doing. Which makes him an 80k player instead of 50k player like the previous poster had stated.

Roogsy
04-26-2011, 12:06 PM
I don't totally disagree with what you are saying but N.Y. and L.A. don't seem to have cap problems, but that's another story.

I know people rag on MLS that somehow they bend over backwards for these teams, but in reality they don't do it often. They created the Beckham rule which all teams have access to but they did it for LA. They grandfathered Donovan's contract the first years of the DP rule. They also added more "DP" room probably for NY. So in the large, "big ticket" items I think they do help the big teams.

But on a day-to-day basis, they don't bend the rules at all. The reason why they field the teams they do is still good cap management. Arena has been in the league long enough to know how to work it. And Backe has gotten the most out of the roleplayers on this team that he is not paying much under the cap. Add to that the fact that these teams are smart enough to pick up players while having other teams (ie. Toronto in the case of BOTH LA and NY) pick up large portions of their salary cap hit and all of a sudden, cap space isn't as much an issue for them as you would think.

Does anyone know if Toronto has ever picked up a starter while making another team pay for a large portion of his salary? I can't remember if we have ever had any.

ManUtd4ever
04-26-2011, 12:10 PM
I know people rag on MLS that somehow they bend over backwards for these teams, but in reality they don't do it often. They created the Beckham rule which all teams have access to but they did it for LA. They grandfathered Donovan's contract the first years of the DP rule. They also added more "DP" room probably for NY. So in the large, "big ticket" items I think they do help the big teams.

But on a day-to-day basis, they don't bend the rules at all. The reason why they field the teams they do is still good cap management. Arena has been in the league long enough to know how to work it. And Backe has gotten the most out of the roleplayers on this team that he is not paying much under the cap. Add to that the fact that these teams are smart enough to pick up players while having other teams (ie. Toronto in the case of BOTH LA and NY) pick up large portions of their salary cap hit and all of a sudden, cap space isn't as much an issue for them as you would think.

Does anyone know if Toronto has ever picked up a starter while making another team pay for a large portion of his salary? I can't remember if we have ever had any.

Nick Garcia, although I use the term "starter" loosely, LOL...

McBrace
04-26-2011, 12:11 PM
^ Garcia, I think..

Beat me to it..LOL...

I would use the term player loosely when it came to him..lol

menefreghista
04-26-2011, 12:13 PM
Does anyone know if Toronto has ever picked up a starter while making another team pay for a large portion of his salary? I can't remember if we have ever had any.

Garcia?

:D

Edit: LOL.

bigtfcfan
04-26-2011, 12:50 PM
JDG made it on this week's best team

Dreadlocks
04-26-2011, 01:19 PM
C'mon man, if JDG doesn't send that quality pass through to Tchani, Thcani can't slot it home and celebrate in the crowd.

He knew what he was doing. Which makes him an 80k player instead of 50k player like the previous poster had stated.

Ahhh! now I get the logic! What was I thinking?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-26-2011, 05:09 PM
JDG made it on this week's best team

Nice

v00d00daddy
04-26-2011, 06:03 PM
I'll echo what many here are saying.

He's been better but far from living up to the DP tag...but.....hopefully its coming.

I like that Winter still expects much more from JDG and I like that JDG seems to be responding..game to game.

He has the potential to be our most influential player out there. I know that seems crazy considering how bad he's looked at TFC but you don't just lose the ability that he has.

Hopefully this is just the beginning of JDG's ascent to prominence again.

69Chevy396
04-26-2011, 06:21 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions....but respectfully, this is a ridiculous statement

ok, I concede jdg is better than Cronin currently, but in two years the reverse might be true. jdg leads a team that cannot score and gives up way too many cheap goals, issues that cannot be ignored when assessing his impact and contribution

prizby
04-26-2011, 07:15 PM
Better... but still not DP quality in my opinion.

And I like the guy.

agreed, was gonna say the same thing...borderline DP money in my books

Dreadlocks
04-26-2011, 07:22 PM
agreed, was gonna say the same thing...borderline DP money in my books

Borderline so far.....

I have faith in him - blind faith based on his history with TFC but faith nonetheless. SOme might even call it hope!:D

prizby
04-26-2011, 07:22 PM
Really, cause money is an issue for 2 Billion dollar MLSE?

TFC turns a profit, LA Galaxy does not.

TFC spending a couple million on DP's.
LA Galaxy spending what...11 million?

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that JDG is impacting our ability to spend whatever money MLSE wants based on those facts?


Would you like to tell me how much it matters over a 14 dollar pint?

if you haven't learned yet, MSLE only spends money if there is going to be an ROI

torontocelt
04-26-2011, 09:33 PM
JDG is a good player but he has not performed to an acceptable standard at TFC over a prolonged period of time for a man on his wages. If he continues to play at his current standard then I would not even consider renewing his contract as a DP. If his stock was low a few years ago in Europe before he joined us then you can bet it is even lower now. He is a man that has the potential to be a really good player but he has it all to prove.

torontocelt
04-26-2011, 09:36 PM
Another thing, how is anyone supposed to judge if he is playing better this season than last when he has only played 5 matches with only 3 starts as opposed to 25 last season with 21 starts?

Oldtimer
04-26-2011, 10:06 PM
If his stock was low a few years ago in Europe before he joined us then you can bet it is even lower now.

His stock wasn't low at all, he was the player of the year at his club. He was blackballed by la liga's owners because he exposed the dirty secret that some of their clubs, including his own, were being behind in paying players. If he hadn't had done that, he'd still be playing in Spain.

When he arrived at TFC he was injured and forced into playing a totally different system, and really didn't want to be here. Most people base their impressions of him mostly on last year. Even his boosters recognize that he wasn't very helpful last year. How he performs this year will be critical to whether he regains his once-sterling reputation. I think he has it in him to be a DP-quality player (at least as much as any DM can be a DP). We'll see if he continues his form.

torontocelt
04-26-2011, 10:17 PM
I would argue that he would not be in Toronto if his stock was not low. Did JDG not arrive on a free transfer? I would imagine his wages would have been acceptable for a whole heap of clubs throughout Europe if they wanted him but it never happened. A player with a 'sterling reputation' would not have ended up in Toronto if he and his agent had not exhausted all possible avenues. You kind of back up what I am saying when you wrote that he 'really didn't want to be here'. I would imagine he would rather have been playing at a good level in Europe than the MLS, you tell me why none of the hundreds of clubs who could afford him never went for him on a free transfer?

Roogsy
04-26-2011, 10:29 PM
Blackballed? Come on! An entire league? AND an entire region? He couldn't go play in Germany or Holland or heaven forbid a smaller European country? That's ridiculous.

TFCRegina
04-26-2011, 10:32 PM
I thought he was very good against Columbus, but far from 'great' and far from 'DP worthy'...

His over-the-top touch-ball for our goal is the skill and poise we need from him...

BUT, we need that all-game, not a 'flash of class'...

Prior to that goal - he had the ball on the top corner of the box, great run in by Peterson, JDG alone with service = 5-yards over a leaping Peterson and fell to nobody...

Minutes later, from the mid, JDG sent a over the top ball to the outside for Martina. The result "The Flash" couldn't of caught it and it went to touch for a goal kick...

He's looks better within the system, MUCH BETTER, but I don't see this AMAZING, GREAT, DP STATUS mid that others do...

He needs his "flashes of class" to not be "flashes" but to he "his play". And then when things go wrong, its a rare occurrence - not the other way around...

He's currently a solid squad member - but definitely not irreplaceable in the starting XI as we develop and move forward with transfer targets...

Carts...

There's the Carts i know and love.

Shakes McQueen
04-26-2011, 10:36 PM
Played better? Yes. Played up to his contract? No. It's going to take more than a few decent games to convince me of that.

I attribute some of that to the lack of talent around him, and directing him, up until this year. However, I also attribute some of that to his own general lack of passion up until this season. The MLS game is different from La Liga, but it's something a good player should be able to adapt to after a handful of games.

I still hold out hope that he will get that spark back, because I want him to do well, and justify the money he gets paid. I'm not betting against the house.

- Scott

habstfc
04-26-2011, 10:56 PM
I could argue til the cows came home that if marquez and henry are worth 5 million each per season then what JDG makes is about right but I won't make that argument.

Roogsy
04-26-2011, 11:41 PM
I could argue til the cows came home that if marquez and henry are worth 5 million each per season then what JDG makes is about right but I won't make that argument.

You could try to make that argument but it would be very difficult. Rafa & Henry are global stars that have played on European champion teams. What exactly makes JDGs contract worth what it is relative to theirs? The fact that they played in the same league? Because that is where the similarity ends. By that rationale, every player in the EPL or La Liga should be looking at multi million-dollar paydays in MLS.

Whoop
04-26-2011, 11:47 PM
I think he meant in terms of salary.

Marquez and Henry at 5.5 million each.
JDG at 1.7 million.

On that basis... I can see the argument.

Either way, I just want a better team. If a better JDG helps the goal then so be it.

Shakes McQueen
04-26-2011, 11:50 PM
I agree, Vic. For better worse, pedigree counts for something when making contract demands. Being an above-average La Liga player is worth a certain amount of leverage.

Pure performance-wise, obviously he hasn't earned that $1.7m per season.

- Scott

Roogsy
04-27-2011, 09:37 AM
I agree, Vic. For better worse, pedigree counts for something when making contract demands. Being an above-average La Liga player is worth a certain amount of leverage.

Pure performance-wise, obviously he hasn't earned that $1.7m per season.

- Scott

So every above-average Liga player should expect big paydays when they come to MLS?

I guess Mista's contract was pretty bang-on then.

Yohan
04-27-2011, 09:41 AM
So every above-average Liga player should expect big paydays when they come to MLS?

I guess Mista's contract was pretty bang-on then.
Hindsight is 20/20, eh

Wull
04-27-2011, 09:44 AM
Henry and Marquez would also bring in a fair chunk of revenue on name alone with sponsorship, jersey sales etc. Julian didn't even reach DeRo's level of impact that way

Whoop
04-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Depends on his agent. :lol:

But yeah an above average La Liga player would be expected to make more than a Div. 2 player from Germany when they come to MLS.

But like Yohan said hindsight is 20/20... though there were warning signs with Mista (and JDG).

Beach_Red
04-27-2011, 10:05 AM
Depends on his agent. :lol:


And how many threads there are on supporters' boards saying, "Please sign this guy!" And how desperate a team is to please its supporters.

Oldtimer
04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Blackballed? Come on! An entire league? AND an entire region? He couldn't go play in Germany or Holland or heaven forbid a smaller European country? That's ridiculous.

He was blackballed in Spain. Fact. Not the whole league (at least one club made him an offer), but most of the clubs.

Of course he could have played in England, Holland, etc., but not for the money that Mo offered him. So you could argue that he's not really worth $1.7 mil, but he wasn't a player on the decline.

Whoop
04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
I don't recall him having any offers from Germany or Holland. I think at one point, while he was still in Spain, Benfica was looking at him. Other than an offer from another La Liga team (which one I can't remember) he didn't have a lot of options.

Oldtimer
04-27-2011, 11:55 AM
I don't recall him having any offers from Germany or Holland. I think at one point, while he was still in Spain, Benfica was looking at him. Other than an offer from another La Liga team (which one I can't remember) he didn't have a lot of options.
He said at the time that he had a number of offers, but none approaching Toronto's.

Oldtimer
04-27-2011, 12:00 PM
Here's some proof (for those with poor memory):


De Guzman negotiated with Toronto GM Mo Johnston earlier this summer, but the midfielder turned down a lucrative offer to become the club's first DP because he wanted to keep playing in Europe. De Guzman reportedly fielded offers from teams in England, Holland and Spain. He and TFC recently resumed talks.http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2009/09/08/sp-mls-torontofc-dichio.html (centre box, next to the DD retirement story).


So any idea that he had no other options is untrue.


More honours:


De Guzman, of Toronto, is expected to play for TFC for the remainder of this season plus three additional years.
The Canadian Soccer Association's male player of the year in 2008, De Guzman has been without a team since his contract expired with Deportivo La Coruna of the Spanish League.


http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/09/09/10798826-sun.html

He wasn't crap, by any means. $50,000 a year player? Give me a break.

brad
04-27-2011, 12:16 PM
Two other things hurt JDG's contract situation in Spain

-he is considered an international and La Liga only allows for a ceratin number of internationals per team (3 I think)
-he was looking for a contract during the worst of the financial collapse and the value of a good quality DM was a lot lower as a result.

Bottom line - in Spain, he was a good quality, middle of the road player and under normal circumstances would have had no problem finding another club willing to take him on a free.

Roogsy
04-27-2011, 12:18 PM
He was blackballed in Spain. Fact. Not the whole league (at least one club made him an offer), but most of the clubs.

Of course he could have played in England, Holland, etc., but not for the money that Mo offered him. So you could argue that he's not really worth $1.7 mil, but he wasn't a player on the decline.


That's my only point. That he wasn't worth what we're paying him. But he certainly could have gone on to play elsewhere for less, including Spain. That Deportivo no longer wanted to make an offer, regardless of their reasons, isn't exactly the definition of "blackballed". If he was a desireable player, teams would have offered him a contract, and apparently at a lower level of pay, he would have received one.

In essence, Toronto artificially inflated his actual worth. It's our own fault.

Pachuco
04-27-2011, 12:23 PM
Here's some proof (for those with poor memory):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2009/09/08/sp-mls-torontofc-dichio.html (centre box, next to the DD retirement story).


So any idea that he had no other options is untrue.


More honours:



http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/09/09/10798826-sun.html

He wasn't crap, by any means. $50,000 a year player? Give me a break.

Someone can offer me $5 for my $2500 bike. But until someone makes a realistic offer it isn't really an offer.

DeGuzman was open about wanting to stay in Europe and that it wasn't about the money, it was a life long goal to play and stay in Europe. When he first turned us down, it was very clear his goal was to play in Europe even though the TFC offer was lucrative.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/674499

So, having said that. It's obvious no one came at him with a serious offer. Or he would not have changed his mind and decided to accept the Toronto offer. He always wanted to come here at a later time, when it was time to retire.

Oldtimer
04-27-2011, 12:27 PM
So, having said that. It's obvious no one came at him with a serious offer. Or he would not have changed his mind and decided to accept the Toronto offer. He always wanted to come here at a later time, when it was time to retire.

It depends what you mean by "serious offer." He had real offers, just not for what he was offered for TFC.

torontocelt
04-27-2011, 12:29 PM
Someone can offer me $5 for my $2500 bike. But until someone makes a realistic offer it isn't really an offer.

DeGuzman was open about wanting to stay in Europe and that it wasn't about the money, it was a life long goal to play and stay in Europe. When he first turned us down, it was very clear his goal was to play in Europe even though the TFC offer was lucrative.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/674499

So, having said that. It's obvious no one came at him with a serious offer. Or he would not have changed his mind and decided to accept the Toronto offer. He always wanted to come here at a later time, when it was time to retire.


Petty much that is how I see it also, he was not a player in demand in Europe, hence he joined TFC.

Pachuco
04-27-2011, 12:32 PM
It depends what you mean by "serious offer." He had real offers, just not for what he was offered for TFC.

At the end of the day both you and I are coming to conclusions based on what we read leading up to JDG deciding to come to MLS. Neither one of us has any proof that he didn't or did have offers.

So all I can say is my opinion on how it happened. And everything I read about JDG or interviews I watched him in he was very adement that he would stay in Europe and it wasn't about the money. Even after reports came out that we sent him a lucrative offer. So I came to the conclusion at the time that he finally gave in when he wasn't shown a real option in Europe. It's even more suspicious since he waited and waited and waited to the point TFC said the offer ran out. Sounds to me like he was hoping to get something from Europe that was adequate and that never happened.

habstfc
04-27-2011, 02:32 PM
It depends what you mean by "serious offer." He had real offers, just not for what he was offered for TFC.

A serious offer might have been say 1.2 million, if he's offered 1.7 here of course he's going to take the much bigger paychheque, just like you or I would.

I don't buy the argument at all about jersey sales etc. for henry and marquez. They're making over 10 million between them there's no way jersey sales for those two would come anywhere near that. I would even bet that Dero has sold just as many jersey's here in toronto as either Henry or Marquez has sold in New York. It's a sad fact but nobody really cares about the Red Bulls in N.Y.C., sorry but they don't. The attendance figures speak of this. The last 2 games they've had 13,000 and 14,000 people. There are no excuses for people not to show up at Red Bull Arena, Henry, one of the best strikers of the last 20 years, the pedigree of marquez, new stadium with a roof.

hodgkiss
04-27-2011, 04:02 PM
is "ryan" (on this board) the same guy we always seemed to get into scraps with years ago? seems like the same kinda person. and the arguments always seem to go against the grain even tho they might be somewhat valid...

how can i forget that guys name... can anyone help me?

mightydrm
04-27-2011, 04:15 PM
The only real question to demonstrate his value to TFC is " how does the team play without him?" On the evidence of last year, Vancouver this year, etc, the answer is "awful". That tells you his value. He is sublime, possibly wasted without one or two other equally skilled players, but at a level well higher than most players in the league.

Thrillos
04-27-2011, 05:56 PM
I still don't care how much we actually pay him. The way I look at it is this, is he worth 335K?? (DP cap usage) Yes he is and I highly doubt anyone on here would be able to argue he isn't worth 335k against the cap. What he gets paid on top of that is all on him and his agent and really has no effect on me or any other fans.

menefreghista
04-27-2011, 06:09 PM
I still don't care how much we actually pay him. The way I look at it is this, is he worth 335K?? (DP cap usage) Yes he is and I highly doubt anyone on here would be able to argue he isn't worth 335k against the cap. What he gets paid on top of that is all on him and his agent and really has no effect on me or any other fans.

That's too simple an answer.

His salary above the cap which MLSE pays could be a factor into why we don't have more DP players.

Pachuco
04-27-2011, 07:40 PM
The only real question to demonstrate his value to TFC is " how does the team play without him?" On the evidence of last year, Vancouver this year, etc, the answer is "awful". That tells you his value. He is sublime, possibly wasted without one or two other equally skilled players, but at a level well higher than most players in the league.

Sorry but, there are MANY games that I could point to where I could show you we've played TERRIBLE with JDG on the field.

NY 5 - Toronto FC 0. That's all I really need to say.

This is classic stuff on this board. When we suck with him on the field it's everybody else's fault. When we lose without him it's all because JDG wasn't in the game.

Shakes McQueen
04-27-2011, 08:05 PM
Sorry but, there are MANY games that I could point to where I could show you we've played TERRIBLE with JDG on the field.

NY 5 - Toronto FC 0. That's all I really need to say.

This is classic stuff on this board. When we suck with him on the field it's everybody else's fault. When we lose without him it's all because JDG wasn't in the game.

Gotta agree with this. It's pretty classic confirmation bias.

I think JDG is a good footballer, and I still think he can be a good footballer in this league. But I definitely don't see strong evidence that the team has consistently been better with him in the lineup. He has been just as up and down as TFC itself, in his time here.

- Scott

69Chevy396
04-27-2011, 08:08 PM
Two other things hurt JDG's contract situation in Spain

-he is considered an international and La Liga only allows for a ceratin number of internationals per team (3 I think)
-he was looking for a contract during the worst of the financial collapse and the value of a good quality DM was a lot lower as a result.

Bottom line - in Spain, he was a good quality, middle of the road player and under normal circumstances would have had no problem finding another club willing to take him on a free.
La liga has no such restrictions on number of foreign players, fewer internationals because the dOmestic plahers are so good

menefreghista
04-27-2011, 10:09 PM
La liga has no such restrictions on number of foreign players, fewer internationals because the dOmestic plahers are so good

They do have restrictions on foreign players.

The reason why it doesn't seem that way is any player that is from an EU country counts as a domestic.

brad
04-28-2011, 11:32 AM
They do have restrictions on foreign players.

The reason why it doesn't seem that way is any player that is from an EU country counts as a domestic.

I looked it up - it's 3 non-EU players per team

Pretty sure JDG was a non-EU player. I could be wrong on this, but I remember reading an article back at the time that said this.

ryan
04-28-2011, 01:19 PM
is "ryan" (on this board) the same guy we always seemed to get into scraps with years ago? seems like the same kinda person. and the arguments always seem to go against the grain even tho they might be somewhat valid...

how can i forget that guys name... can anyone help me?

No idea who you are talking about, but that's not me.

Roogsy
04-28-2011, 01:22 PM
I think he is referring to Kenny Blankenship.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
At the end of the day both you and I are coming to conclusions based on what we read leading up to JDG deciding to come to MLS. Neither one of us has any proof that he didn't or did have offers.

So all I can say is my opinion on how it happened. And everything I read about JDG or interviews I watched him in he was very adement that he would stay in Europe and it wasn't about the money. Even after reports came out that we sent him a lucrative offer. So I came to the conclusion at the time that he finally gave in when he wasn't shown a real option in Europe. It's even more suspicious since he waited and waited and waited to the point TFC said the offer ran out. Sounds to me like he was hoping to get something from Europe that was adequate and that never happened.

He was lined up to sign with Espanyol when Jarque died. I believe Espanyol has confirmed this. In the wake of Jarque's death, Espanyol opted to spend the DeGuzman money on another Spaniard (I think it was one of DeGuzman's Depo teammates).

A couple of sources from around the time. Not great; but commensurate with the effort expended.

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/espanyol-coach-pochettino-keen-de-guzman-260974
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2009/07/05/1364232/report-deportivo-la-corunas-julian-de-guzman-wanted-by

69Chevy396
04-28-2011, 05:54 PM
They do have restrictions on foreign players.

The reason why it doesn't seem that way is any player that is from an EU country counts as a domestic.

I don't get it, Real Madrid has six internationals, not three

ag futbol
04-28-2011, 06:06 PM
That's my only point. That he wasn't worth what we're paying him. But he certainly could have gone on to play elsewhere for less, including Spain. That Deportivo no longer wanted to make an offer, regardless of their reasons, isn't exactly the definition of "blackballed". If he was a desireable player, teams would have offered him a contract, and apparently at a lower level of pay, he would have received one.

In essence, Toronto artificially inflated his actual worth. It's our own fault.
The club owed him (and various other players) money and was dicking them around. He went public with it and they started reducing his role pretty drastically.

As much as Depor was a reasonably deep team at the time, it wasn't a case of them not needing his skills.

brad
04-28-2011, 06:45 PM
I don't get it, Real Madrid has six internationals, not three

At least three of them will have an EU passport.

menefreghista
04-28-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't get it, Real Madrid has six internationals, not three

Its not uncommon for South American players to have blood lines in Spain, Italy or Portugal. They then use this as a way to get an EU passport.

Plus the restriction is only for your starting line up. You can sign as many non-EU players you want (as Euro teams don't have restrictions like MLS teams on roster size). But you can only dress 3 non-EU players.

Julian De Guzman does not have an EU passport. His brother does but he obtained one by living in Holland long enough and obtaining Dutch citizenship.

Maltese Falcon
04-29-2011, 12:09 PM
That's too simple an answer.

His salary above the cap which MLSE pays could be a factor into why we don't have more DP players.
Do you know how much MLSE is worth??? Thats a cop out penny pinching excuse. MLSE has the funds to do whatever it wants to to do, spending a few more millions to bring in another DP is not going to break the bank...they have the funds to burn if they choose, but when Toronto fans accept mediocrity why should they bother to improve the squad by pumping in more finances? TFC is one of the highest grossing MLS franchises last time I looked, if you were a suit why would you see the need to change a thing? These people don't know football they know dollars. And Toronto franchises follow this trend: Winning team = $$$ Losing team = $$$. There aren't a lot of owners that have enough passion to create winning standards regardless of finances these days.

menefreghista
04-29-2011, 01:21 PM
Do you know how much MLSE is worth??? Thats a cop out penny pinching excuse. MLSE has the funds to do whatever it wants to to do, spending a few more millions to bring in another DP is not going to break the bank...they have the funds to burn if they choose, but when Toronto fans accept mediocrity why should they bother to improve the squad by pumping in more finances? TFC is one of the highest grossing MLS franchises last time I looked, if you were a suit why would you see the need to change a thing? These people don't know football they know dollars. And Toronto franchises follow this trend: Winning team = $$$ Losing team = $$$. There aren't a lot of owners that have enough passion to create winning standards regardless of finances these days.

You're preaching to the choir my friend.

Personally I'm of the belief that TFC should be trying to carry 2-3 DP players at all times, simply due to how much money we fans have pumped into the club over its 5 year existence.

I don't buy any 'we don't need a DP while we are rebuilding' bullshit I've seen some people post.

Ageroo
04-29-2011, 01:25 PM
Sorry but, there are MANY games that I could point to where I could show you we've played TERRIBLE with JDG on the field.

NY 5 - Toronto FC 0. That's all I really need to say.

This is classic stuff on this board. When we suck with him on the field it's everybody else's fault. When we lose without him it's all because JDG wasn't in the game.

I am a fan so take what I say however you like.......the bolded part I have issue with as it was his 5th game with the club...where I am assuming he was not match fit as he was out of contract coming to the club. Using this as an example really doesn't prove much in my opinion.

But I agree with you that it is not all doom and gloom when he is out of the roster and not all rosy with him there either. I am hoping that his fitness and level of play will be ramped up as well as the squad this season. So far in the full matches he has played I have liked what I have seen, but we will see with stiffer competition what he does.

If you want to throw out performances where his presence is felt...then look at last year's home and home series against NY. TFC lost both matches, BUT.......... 1-0 loss in NY with JDG in the lineup and Henry playing.....then getting destroyed 4-1 at home without him in the lineup. (I believe he was serving an accumulation suspension)......you see I can throw out numbers too. :) But as I said...these like yours can be said about anyone as well. We could do this all day for most players on most rosters.

Wull
04-29-2011, 02:05 PM
I am a fan so take what I say however you like.......the bolded part I have issue with as it was his 5th game with the club...where I am assuming he was not match fit as he was out of contract coming to the club. Using this as an example really doesn't prove much in my opinion.

But I agree with you that it is not all doom and gloom when he is out of the roster and not all rosy with him there either. I am hoping that his fitness and level of play will be ramped up as well as the squad this season. So far in the full matches he has played I have liked what I have seen, but we will see with stiffer competition what he does.

If you want to throw out performances where his presence is felt...then look at last year's home and home series against NY. TFC lost both matches, BUT.......... 1-0 loss in NY with JDG in the lineup and Henry playing.....then getting destroyed 4-1 at home without him in the lineup. (I believe he was serving an accumulation suspension)......you see I can throw out numbers too. :) But as I said...these like yours can be said about anyone as well. We could do this all day for most players on most rosters.


Why can't you be this animated when you're in lower 115?! :D

Ageroo
04-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Why can't you be this animated when you're in lower 115?! :D

haha.......thanks for saying hello by the way. ;)

Wull
04-29-2011, 02:36 PM
haha.......thanks for saying hello by the way. ;)
Seats 1 and 2 are sometimes empty, come on up!!

69Chevy396
04-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Its not uncommon for South American players to have blood lines in Spain, Italy or Portugal. They then use this as a way to get an EU passport.

Plus the restriction is only for your starting line up. You can sign as many non-EU players you want (as Euro teams don't have restrictions like MLS teams on roster size). But you can only dress 3 non-EU players.

Julian De Guzman does not have an EU passport. His brother does but he obtained one by living in Holland long enough and obtaining Dutch citizenship.

thanks' didn't know this

Pachuco
04-29-2011, 04:58 PM
I am a fan so take what I say however you like.......the bolded part I have issue with as it was his 5th game with the club...where I am assuming he was not match fit as he was out of contract coming to the club. Using this as an example really doesn't prove much in my opinion.

But I agree with you that it is not all doom and gloom when he is out of the roster and not all rosy with him there either. I am hoping that his fitness and level of play will be ramped up as well as the squad this season. So far in the full matches he has played I have liked what I have seen, but we will see with stiffer competition what he does.

If you want to throw out performances where his presence is felt...then look at last year's home and home series against NY. TFC lost both matches, BUT.......... 1-0 loss in NY with JDG in the lineup and Henry playing.....then getting destroyed 4-1 at home without him in the lineup. (I believe he was serving an accumulation suspension)......you see I can throw out numbers too. :) But as I said...these like yours can be said about anyone as well. We could do this all day for most players on most rosters.

Ok but it wasn't me throwing out the examples first. It was someone else and I replied with one example to show that it's easy enough to contradict that statement. But, the fact you justify us losing 5-0 and playing what has to be the worst game TFC has played defensively in their existence doesn't mean it didn't happen while he was on the field. To be honest I'm not the one interested in trying to prove/disprove this theory. I've seen us play some bad games with him on the field (Colorado loss where he jumped out of the wall and can be solely blamed for that loss) and I've seen us play great games without him as well.

Same could be said for any player on the roster right now. Which is why I think it's useless to use this as an argument when defending JDG.

My opinion is that in general, JDG was not influential last year in making this team better. The results speak for themselves but most importantly I base my opinion from watching him play when he's on the field, not on how the team plays when he's off the field.

I can admit that he's been influential in making the team better this year (in the limited games we've seen him play). If he keeps that up then great, but still not DP worthy in my mind.

habstfc
04-29-2011, 07:15 PM
I can admit that he's been influential in making the team better this year (in the limited games we've seen him play). If he keeps that up then great, but still not DP worthy in my mind.

If you really want to get down to it the only real DP that's accomplished what mls has wanted from the "DP role" is beckham. He raised the profile of the league considerably (although that didn't last long). No other DP has put people in the seats the way he has, not henry, not marquez etc.

ag futbol
04-29-2011, 07:27 PM
If you really want to get down to it the only real DP that's accomplished what mls has wanted from the "DP role" is beckham. He raised the profile of the league considerably (although that didn't last long). No other DP has put people in the seats the way he has, not henry, not marquez etc.
I think you have to add Blanco to that list. Nobody here might give a shit, but he brought lots of people to the games.

69Chevy396
04-29-2011, 08:55 PM
I think you have to add Blanco to that list. Nobody here might give a shit, but he brought lots of people to the games.
Interesting that you mentioned Blanco. He represents the type of dp that the team needs, a player who is dangerous offensively, who can distribute the ball, score goals, take spot kicks. Jdg is one dimensional defensive player, cannot hit the back of the net, and rarely makes the quality pass of a blanco. The one he made last week for the goal Blanco makes ten times a game.

habstfc
04-29-2011, 09:58 PM
Blanco never brought the casuals out. The general public wouldn't have known who he was.

Pachuco
04-30-2011, 12:21 AM
If you really want to get down to it the only real DP that's accomplished what mls has wanted from the "DP role" is beckham. He raised the profile of the league considerably (although that didn't last long). No other DP has put people in the seats the way he has, not henry, not marquez etc.

I'm sure the MLS would take a DP like Angel anytime. He may not have raised the profile of the league, but he's raised the level of play in the league. Based on all the DPs that have been signed since Beckham, my guess is what MLS wants from a DP is different then what you think they want.

BTW - Blanco is a legend in Mexico. You're crazy to think he didn't raise MLS awareness in Mexico.

Maltese Falcon
04-30-2011, 10:01 AM
If you really want to get down to it the only real DP that's accomplished what mls has wanted from the "DP role" is beckham. He raised the profile of the league considerably (although that didn't last long). No other DP has put people in the seats the way he has, not henry, not marquez etc.
I think Beckham is the extreme case that obviously got the ball rolling as far as designated players go (the Beckham Rule). Personally when I think of DP's I have to go with someone like Montero as being the poster boy of what the MLS SHOULD be looking for. The allure of Henry/Marquez isn't filling up Red Bull stadium. And while they're both quality players, I would rather the MLS become a league that finds and holds onto great young talent with the DP and has clubs in Europe watching not to see their long forgotten heroes, but battling against each other to scoop up youth. Seeing the competitiveness and quality in the league and having to pay big dollars to get a chance at it.

habstfc
04-30-2011, 02:47 PM
I think Beckham is the extreme case that obviously got the ball rolling as far as designated players go (the Beckham Rule). Personally when I think of DP's I have to go with someone like Montero as being the poster boy of what the MLS SHOULD be looking for. The allure of Henry/Marquez isn't filling up Red Bull stadium. And while they're both quality players, I would rather the MLS become a league that finds and holds onto great young talent with the DP and has clubs in Europe watching not to see their long forgotten heroes, but battling against each other to scoop up youth. Seeing the competitiveness and quality in the league and having to pay big dollars to get a chance at it.

That's why I think they should scrap the dp altogether and raise the salary cap considerably. To bring in aging stars most people ( casual fans) have never heard of is the wrong way to go about it.

69Chevy396
04-30-2011, 04:28 PM
What does this about well past his prime Beckham coveted by EPL teams at the end of the MLS contract?

los sonadores
05-01-2011, 02:48 AM
JDG not playing well tonight... but i think it's already established that if he has too much befuddled individualist shit playing around him or clueless movement he can't do much about it. He's a holder that can advance the play well but only if he has options to play the ball.

ensco
05-01-2011, 08:17 AM
JDG not playing well tonight... but i think it's already established that if he has too much befuddled individualist shit playing around him or clueless movement he can't do much about it. He's a holder that can advance the play well but only if he has options to play the ball.


Winter subbing him out was more than interesting. Whatever we all think, JDG isn't impressing Winter much.

OurGame
05-01-2011, 10:04 AM
JDG is on a Phat contract and realizes where he is playing / can you spell NO reason to have motivation whatsoevr..

Azerban
05-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Blanco never brought the casuals out. The general public wouldn't have known who he was.

lol

just lol

take a look @ dis

Pachuco
05-01-2011, 11:23 AM
Worst game JDG has had this year. Let's hope it's not a trend. I'm glad Winter recognized he was doing more harm then good in this game.

ilikemusic
05-01-2011, 01:39 PM
JDG is on a Phat contract and realizes where he is playing / can you spell NO reason to have motivation whatsoevr..

It was a horrible, horrible signing. It was plainly obvious at the time it was completed that TFC was his absolute last resort and that he only came here for the payday.

BTW I am one of the three who voted that he is performing worse. He should be graded on a dynamic scale. His worth, and therefore the judgment of his performances, should really only be relative to his contract (i.e. what kind of resources is he taking up).

He is a useless dolt who is only here for the cheque. We would be better off starting a rookie at the league minimum because at least he would have some motivation.

Bars92
05-01-2011, 04:33 PM
At this stage I gladly pay Dero the 1.7 mil instead of Deguz. The team would be so much better off. At least we'd lose 3-2..instead of 3-0..

Blowing Bubbles
05-01-2011, 04:34 PM
guy is producing very little. same as it ever was.

bigtfcfan
05-01-2011, 04:48 PM
JDG was abysmal last night. Winter is courageous to do what other coaches before him never did. He realized he wasn't playing well and took him out.

SoccMan
05-02-2011, 09:26 AM
Just have a look at the second Seattle goal again and see how JDG gives up the ball right in the middle of the park, that's our million dollar man for you, Seattle takes the ball and comes right back and scores. Get this piece of crap off the field I could find a hundred players better than this idiot playing in local amateur leagues around Toronto that would do a better job out there than this crap.

69Chevy396
05-04-2011, 05:12 PM
He is clearly not that bad, but that goal was the direct consequence of his poor judgement, and he did give it up way too easily

harrietgate
05-07-2011, 08:43 PM
TFC 2 Houston 1

Tonight was De Guzman's best ever. Heartening indeed.