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trane
04-18-2011, 03:10 AM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2011, 07:31 AM
awesome, glad to hear it and im with you on this

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 07:47 AM
I agree that the club should theoretically improve throughout the course of the season, and I fully support allowing the new management regime the appropriate timeframe before passing judgement.

However, I have no patience or tolerance for a club that sleepwalks through a match, especially in front of their own supporters. I am going to assume that the debacle on Saturday was primarily due to fatigue, but gutless performances like that are completely unacceptable, despite the fact that the club is in rebuilding mode. If TFC loses a hard fought match, I think most supporters can live with that if they see an honest effort and glimpses of progress.

So let's hope that the return of Gordon and a revamped backline will spark this team to much stronger performances from this point forward.

ecospice
04-18-2011, 08:06 AM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.

Totally agree. There are many new parts to the big red machine - they now need to learn to work together and most of them show that they are capable of learning the system and performing in it.

:scarf:

Sweeper
04-18-2011, 08:06 AM
Yes I share your long term goal and positive outlook too. Win or lose I support the team. I think TFC are starting to gather a lot of individual skill but haven't been able to form a team yet. The back line definitely needs sorting out as last year the whole team played defence so the current deficiencies weren't quite as apparent. The schedule is definitely working against us this year.

__wowza
04-18-2011, 08:42 AM
Totally agree. There are many new parts to the big red machine - they now need to learn to work together and most of them show that they are capable of learning the system and performing in it.

:scarf:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTepAPqqVLMRaBIXsVUk-GTf5LzKG5i6LYzJRLgCIT-G6O9PFYG0Q

drewski
04-18-2011, 08:44 AM
total agreement.

it's gonna take time and patience, two things seriously lacking in sport management & fandom these days (and IMO society in general) I seriously wonder if Sir Alex would have been given the time to succeed today that he was given back in the 80's). That's not to say we should blindly support, but rightfully this is a building project and will take time and see mistakes happen. As long as we learn from the mistakes and make a generally continue a long term upward trend, I'm happy.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:47 AM
^ Agreed. If this is September and we are still shiting the bed, and showing little or no signs of improvment then we may have to re-evaluate. But at this point I realy think that we will be a much better team by summer time.

Pachuco
04-18-2011, 08:56 AM
I take it one game at a time. I see no reason to asssume the best and I also see no reason to assume the worst. I have no idea whether this system will work in the MLS once we have the right players in place. I too share the team's vision and goals. For the first time in TFC's existence I actually buy the system they are trying to implement. But that doens't mean it will be succesfull. So the difference with this thread and my own feelings is I'll judge our play and progress as we play each game this season. I'm not going to assume we are going to get better just because I want to believe, and I'm not going to assume we are going to get worst just because I don't want to believe.

I don't even know if that make sense. haha.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:59 AM
^ Yeah, I believe in the sense, that I think that this system will work if implemented, do I think it will be properly impelemented, that we will have the players, I believe that we will, but clearly it could go all wrong.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 09:19 AM
I trust trane.

If trane believes, I believe. LOL

trane
04-18-2011, 09:20 AM
^ Hahahaha. What can I say?


But I know that you trust the Ajax way.

LucaGol
04-18-2011, 09:45 AM
I am very worried and consequently don't believe :) :hide:

(As an aside, I will still watch and hope though) :scarf:

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm not going to assume we are going to get better just because I want to believe, and I'm not going to assume we are going to get worst just because I don't want to believe.

I don't even know if that make sense. haha.

HAHA it does, youll call it as you see it basically

trane
04-18-2011, 09:48 AM
It is a bit scary, that I am the positive one, something is not right.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 09:50 AM
That's what I mean. LOL

Or it just means you might be onto something.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 09:53 AM
It is a bit scary, that I am the positive one, something is not right.

LOL...

http://www.asitecalledfred.com/comics101/images/2005/oct19/bizarro.jpg

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2011, 09:54 AM
It is a bit scary, that I am the positive one, something is not right.

HAHA im digging it man

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 10:37 AM
I'm more than dubious right now.

Every season, because of a spate of underachievement by the better teams, we are faced with some easy games, that if we win, we end up in a comfortable position, and if we lose we end up in a difficult position. Every season we bomb those games.

This is like Saturday, if we won we'd still be second, the teams with games in hand would have to make up that ground, We would have a positive GD and our record would vindicate Winter somewhat and it would be very difficult to call the new systm into question.

However we lost, and as a result we are at the bottom of the table, there are two teams below us with two games in hand that could use those games to collect our entire points total for the season so far. We have -3 GD, Its going to be a slog gaining ground in the league (if that indeed is a priority) and were going to need our conference rivals to be as inconsistent as ever to break into a playoff position.

Im any other league, with any other coach, Saturday was a must win.

When a team approaches a must win game against a relatively soft opponent, and BOMBS (and this team is famous for it) you have to ask is our coach inspiring these players to win games, is he able to stress the importance of a game like that and get the very best game out of them when it matters?

Personally I dont think he is, he has little charisma, he's not confident in front of the camera, and he's less experienced than they are when it comes to assessing the MLS opposition.

rocker
04-18-2011, 11:20 AM
I am always reminded of what Sigi Schmidt did in Columbus or what Kreis did in RSL. Both respected coaches now, both absolutely gutted the teams they inherited, with predictable results: shitty play for a season or two. They slowly found players that did what they wanted to do, they eventually kept those rosters together, and had success. I know other teams have turned things around faster but these two respected coaches did not. The difference for them is their fan support was much lower than TFC's and they were not under the microscope. They had time to build. But every time someone cites RSL and Columbus Crew as teams performing well, that building period is forgotten.

Also, I don't like to judge TFC on any one game.

To me, it's about the season as a whole. During their glory years, Houston used to be notoriously bad at the start of seasons but would always turn it on as they went along. Other teams, like Dallas and LA in previous years, or NE two years ago, would hold close to the playoffs with lots of ties and then make a surge near the end.

Another thing I've noticed is that for average/mediocre teams, 3 games in 7 days is really tough. A very good team can survive (see LA this past week), but it kills lesser teams. Vancouver saw that in Houston last week. It doesn't help when your opponent had a week between games. MLS is a tight league (Bruce Arena once called many games a "coin flip" because of parity) and things like fatigue can cause problems.

Just tempered thoughts from someone who has watched so many MLS games since TFC entered the league.

Gazza
04-18-2011, 11:23 AM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.

Your post was a breath of fresh air. Some logic in a time of chaos and depression.

Toronto sport's fans seem to have a bi-polar nature, which i wouldn't dare blame on the fans themselves. Years of being abused and toyed with will do that to you.

I too can see the positive outlook for the future even though the present is quite bleak. I'm not one to go down with a sinking ship either.

Gazza
04-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Unless trane is actually Tom Anselmi and he's been setting us up for this post since 2008.

MLSE is so desperate that they brought out their last resort! lol.

CoachGT
04-18-2011, 11:33 AM
I see a positive future based upon what I've seen from this team this year. Saturday was a brain fart, specifically by a few individuals. Frei was outstanding and continues to show very good form. Cordon was a breath of (creative) fresh air. We have a good core of young players. We have created chances in each of our games. And the football is, in the very least, entertaining!

We're still a couple of pieces away, but I see more cohesion from this group than any other that has played here to date.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm more than dubious right now.

Every season, because of a spate of underachievement by the better teams, we are faced with some easy games, that if we win, we end up in a comfortable position, and if we lose we end up in a difficult position. Every season we bomb those games.

This is like Saturday, if we won we'd still be second, the teams with games in hand would have to make up that ground, We would have a positive GD and our record would vindicate Winter somewhat and it would be very difficult to call the new systm into question.

However we lost, and as a result we are at the bottom of the table, there are two teams below us with two games in hand that could use those games to collect our entire points total for the season so far. We have -3 GD, Its going to be a slog gaining ground in the league (if that indeed is a priority) and were going to need our conference rivals to be as inconsistent as ever to break into a playoff position.

Im any other league, with any other coach, Saturday was a must win.

When a team approaches a must win game against a relatively soft opponent, and BOMBS (and this team is famous for it) you have to ask is our coach inspiring these players to win games, is he able to stress the importance of a game like that and get the very best game out of them when it matters?

Personally I dont think he is, he has little charisma, he's not confident in front of the camera, and he's less experienced than they are when it comes to assessing the MLS opposition.

I can't disagree with the points you've made. Saturday was probably the most demoralizing game I've ever attended.

What I find puzzling is that this club has looked impressive at times earlier this season. The only rationale for Saturday's lethargic performance is fatigue, the decision to start Peterson at RB, and the absence of Gordon.

DC United may yet prove to be one of the stronger clubs in the East so they might not be the doormat many thought they were.

Winter is not a charismatic figure, but other successful coaches in the league have a similar demeanour. I'm not ready to write him off because of his soft spoken nature. He does however need to recognize that tactical adjustments need to made depending on the opponent because as many have suggested, we're far too predictable at the moment.

The key is to gauge how Winter and the club respond to the debacle on Saturday. The match against Columbus will be a statement game that will provide more insight into what this club is truly made of, and what we can expect moving forward.

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 11:39 AM
I'm worried but I still believe.

MKR
04-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Your post was a breath of fresh air. Some logic in a time of chaos and depression.

Toronto sport's fans seem to have a bi-polar nature, which i wouldn't dare blame on the fans themselves. Years of being abused and toyed with will do that to you.

I too can see the positive outlook for the future even though the present is quite bleak. I'm not one to go down with a sinking ship either.

it's not Toronto fans. It's sports fans in general. I follow a couple of other teams (not based out of toronto) and of course when things go bad everyone wants a ton of changes (RIGHT AWAY!) and when things go good with the same players it's championship here we come.

I think the reason why toronto fans seem to have this mentality more so is because toronto teams have been so poor for so long so the negative side of being a sports fan always shows through. the side that wants always come up with the answers as to why the team sucks or to trade the whole team after a loss.

torontocelt
04-18-2011, 11:44 AM
^ Yeah, I believe in the sense, that I think that this system will work if implemented, do I think it will be properly impelemented, that we will have the players, I believe that we will, but clearly it could go all wrong.

I think that this is key just as much as the much hyped system. If you do not have players who are good enough then the system is going to fail for sure. We clearly dont have the players at this point and our squad is thread bare. To be honest I just cannot see Winter's system working out as it is going to take some effort to get players who are good enough to play this system and in the MLS it isn't easy / bordering on impossible to get the right players. You can only coach a player so much, if it isn't there then it just isn't there.

Also all of this talk from some posters comparing Fergie to Winter, well Fergie had huge success at every club he managed before man u. At Aberdeen he was immensely successful domestically and internationally. When he moved to man u things didn't work out at first but he had a proven successful track record in management, this is something that Winter does not have. You cannot look back at Winter and say that he has been a success elsewhere as this is his first job as a senior manager. I wish him all the best but I am beginning to doubt his vision, time will tell.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 11:46 AM
I think that this is key just as much as the much hyped system. If you do not have players who are good enough then the system is going to fail for sure. We clearly dont have the players at this point and our squad is thread bare. To be honest I just cannot see Winter's system working out as it is going to take some effort to get players who are good enough to play this system and in the MLS it isn't easy / bordering on impossible to get the right players. You can only coach a player so much, if it isn't there then it just isn't there.

Also all of this talk from some posters comparing Fergie to Winter, well Fergie had huge success at every club he managed before man u. At Aberdeen he was immensely successful domestically and internationally. When he moved to man u things didn't work out at first but he had a proven successful track record in management, this is something that Winter does not have. You cannot look back at Winter and say that he has been a success elsewhere as this is his first job as a senior manager. I wish him all the best but I am beginning to doubt his vision, time will tell.


My thoughts exactly.

backbeat
04-18-2011, 11:58 AM
I think that this is key just as much as the much hyped system. If you do not have players who are good enough then the system is going to fail for sure. We clearly dont have the players at this point and our squad is thread bare. To be honest I just cannot see Winter's system working out as it is going to take some effort to get players who are good enough to play this system and in the MLS it isn't easy / bordering on impossible to get the right players. You can only coach a player so much, if it isn't there then it just isn't there.

Also all of this talk from some posters comparing Fergie to Winter, well Fergie had huge success at every club he managed before man u. At Aberdeen he was immensely successful domestically and internationally. When he moved to man u things didn't work out at first but he had a proven successful track record in management, this is something that Winter does not have. You cannot look back at Winter and say that he has been a success elsewhere as this is his first job as a senior manager. I wish him all the best but I am beginning to doubt his vision, time will tell.

i don't think the comparison between Winter and Fergie was track record rather the time given to turn things around in this era - suggesting that today even Fergie wouldn't have had the luxury.

me i'm in the 'i have faith' category - Winter has been here 3 months or so and that is the point - there does need to be some patients - as for tactics i've already seen Winter imply a variety over the first number of games - game 2 was a totally different approach to game 1.

Redcoe15
04-18-2011, 12:34 PM
http://web.mit.edu/molly/Public/i-believe.jpg

-AEX0WRZzfI

:scarf:

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 12:41 PM
me i'm in the 'i have faith' category - Winter has been here 3 months or so and that is the point - there does need to be some patients - as for tactics i've already seen Winter imply a variety over the first number of games - game 2 was a totally different approach to game 1.

TFC has lost 2 games, and you are not asking him to completely change his tactics or be fired? Amazing!!!

:lol:

Yeoman
04-18-2011, 01:27 PM
as i've said it once, i've said it a thousand times
this is something that we're just going to have to write off a few years
are you willing to accept three or four bad years, to have 20 or 30 good ones?
i know i am

trane
04-18-2011, 01:50 PM
^ I do not think we need that long to know if we are on the right track. But I agree short term pain for long term gain I am very ok with.

Yeoman
04-18-2011, 02:02 PM
three would really be my upmost tops
two i can live with

dupont
04-18-2011, 02:17 PM
I have some pretty good hope for next season but I think this season is kind of a write off. That was my impression even before the season started actually just because they haven't brought in enough players yet.

TOBOR !
04-18-2011, 02:20 PM
I think it's a bit early to be doubting Winter's vision. I think he has the tactical acumen to make adjustments after poor results as well as during games - as long as he has the personnel available to him. Keeping in mind that for him this team is still being evaluated. It's not where he wants it to be yet. Noted he'll have more trouble getting his kind of player right now in MLS / for MLS, but I believe the plan is to bring up the Academy players to fill the roster - already educated in the Winter system. So, hold steady lads, have some faith in the boss, sunny days are on the horizon . [/poorly punctuated paragraph]

DangerRed
04-18-2011, 02:20 PM
Here's what it feels like being a TFC fan sometimes (starts at the 1:50 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjZImQDoww

Edit: irony, apparently this clip is from a Dutch TV show.

GuelphStorm2007
04-18-2011, 02:32 PM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.

Bravo Trane. I am totally on your side on this one as far as I am concerned wht the the past is is the past. lets stop the negativity and support Winter De klerk and Mariner. I think the teams goals will be achieved sooner than we all think.:scarf:

maninb
04-18-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm more than dubious right now.

Every season, because of a spate of underachievement by the better teams, we are faced with some easy games, that if we win, we end up in a comfortable position, and if we lose we end up in a difficult position. Every season we bomb those games.

This is like Saturday, if we won we'd still be second, the teams with games in hand would have to make up that ground, We would have a positive GD and our record would vindicate Winter somewhat and it would be very difficult to call the new systm into question.

However we lost, and as a result we are at the bottom of the table, there are two teams below us with two games in hand that could use those games to collect our entire points total for the season so far. We have -3 GD, Its going to be a slog gaining ground in the league (if that indeed is a priority) and were going to need our conference rivals to be as inconsistent as ever to break into a playoff position.

Im any other league, with any other coach, Saturday was a must win.

When a team approaches a must win game against a relatively soft opponent, and BOMBS (and this team is famous for it) you have to ask is our coach inspiring these players to win games, is he able to stress the importance of a game like that and get the very best game out of them when it matters?

Personally I dont think he is, he has little charisma, he's not confident in front of the camera, and he's less experienced than they are when it comes to assessing the MLS opposition.

Based on what you said both Sigi Scmid and Jason Kreis would have been fired LONG before they won LMS cups just because their teams sucked the first year....give it a rest!

prizby
04-18-2011, 04:08 PM
Alex Ferguson had 4 points in his first 8 games with United

we have 5 in 6...Winter > Fergie

Shakes McQueen
04-18-2011, 04:38 PM
The team has actually played better than I was expecting so far this season, and I say that as someone who is completely willing to give Winter time to build his own roster of players, and implement his own stamp on the playing style.

I'm excited to see where this team is at this time next season, after Winter has time to acquire more assets, unload more dead weight, and become further acquainted with the quirks of MLS soccer.

- Scott

jimiv
04-18-2011, 04:44 PM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.

I agree, as glimpses of what's to come have been there. Hopefully, Saturday's issues will be addressed and the team will learn from it and they come out gangbusters against Columbus this weekend.

:scarf:

sashavukelich
04-18-2011, 05:26 PM
Fella's i'm on that boat as well...this boat is going to float and sail the seas to cups galore.

Davenport
04-18-2011, 05:32 PM
I love the optimism on this board, but silk purses cannot be fashioned from sow's ears.

TFC07
04-18-2011, 05:52 PM
I still don't understand why Winter starts Harden and Peterson every game. I believe this system Winter is bringing to club, but I don't agree with Winter's players selection. That is my issue with Winter here.

trane
04-18-2011, 06:13 PM
^ I am not a fan of Harden and Peterson on the backline. If I have to guess it is his developmental youth coach insticnt, which I think are wrong, that he can develop these two into players he can use.


Harden, looked nervous and does not know how to be physical in the CB way, meaning physical but keeping the fauls down.

CBTFC
04-18-2011, 07:04 PM
count me in :).

denime
04-18-2011, 07:09 PM
I still don't understand why Winter starts Harden and Peterson every game. I believe this system Winter is bringing to club, but I don't agree with Winter's players selection. That is my issue with Winter here.

You have to play them if you want to trade them for something better than beg of soccer balls. ;)

ochos
04-18-2011, 07:30 PM
Glad you're finally on board trane :)

I have faith. Let's give this team a bit of time.. I think the way this league is improving, and the type of player's we're bringing in, other players will want to come here. I was truly proud of 112/113/127 last game, and I'd love to see us be able to spread that in the coming months, get BMO rockin' again!

ensco
04-18-2011, 07:35 PM
What is there to believe in? Aron Winter is untested in a role like the one is is filling. Same for Mariner (a little less so in his case, I know, but he was never upstairs before).

Too soon to say. Way too soon.

What is our interest in making Winter more comfortable, anyway?

ecospice
04-18-2011, 07:59 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTepAPqqVLMRaBIXsVUk-GTf5LzKG5i6LYzJRLgCIT-G6O9PFYG0Q

Exactly.

Awesome find on Nikolai Volkoff, btw

123 elite
04-18-2011, 08:40 PM
Someone must be passing out the cool-aid. There has been absolutely nothing other than talk to suggest there is a system at all. I seriously wonder if you are watching the same team as me. We have no midfield. We have strikers or attacking midfielders that don't have a clue where anyone else is and we have the most inept defence i've seen in 5 years of watching this and that includes 2 players who were rocks last season. Frei gets a pass. He isn't god afterall.

denime
04-18-2011, 08:57 PM
Someone must be passing out the cool-aid. There has been absolutely nothing other than talk to suggest there is a system at all. I seriously wonder if you are watching the same team as me. We have no midfield. We have strikers or attacking midfielders that don't have a clue where anyone else is and we have the most inept defence i've seen in 5 years of watching this and that includes 2 players who were rocks last season. Frei gets a pass. He isn't god afterall.

You can always switch to Whitecaps no one is holding the gun on your head to follow TFC.

MKR
04-18-2011, 08:59 PM
you can 'turn around' a team in the MLS in under 1 year. If you are serious about it.

3 years? ha.

ensco
04-18-2011, 09:03 PM
Someone must be passing out the cool-aid. There has been absolutely nothing other than talk to suggest there is a system at all. I seriously wonder if you are watching the same team as me. We have no midfield. We have strikers or attacking midfielders that don't have a clue where anyone else is and we have the most inept defence i've seen in 5 years of watching this and that includes 2 players who were rocks last season. Frei gets a pass. He isn't god afterall.

Nothing was worse than Braz and Reda.

123 elite
04-18-2011, 09:14 PM
You can always switch to Whitecaps no one is holding the gun on your head to follow TFC.

Odd line of thought. I'm a toronto fc fan. Why would i do that? I've watched many a shit team in my life. Doesn't mean i hate them. I do know when i am watching shit however. Watching shit and trying to pretend its not is weird behaviour as far as i'm concerned.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 09:28 PM
Based on what you said both Sigi Scmid and Jason Kreis would have been fired LONG before they won LMS cups just because their teams sucked the first year....give it a rest!

What? In Schmid's first MLS gig he took over a crappy LA and won the western conference, and earned coach of the year.

He followed that up with the semi finals and actually winning the CONCACAF cup.

Followed by the Open Cup, a Shield and Cup double.
Schmid had all that to show for his 'system' when Columbus were tanking, and frankly, if schmid were to come here and declare he was 'rebuilding' I would be a lot more comfortable because a coach like that can point to his track record and say 'i know what the fuck is going on round here'

What about Kreis? This guy took over the team mid-season after the coach was shown the door, retired as a player to do so, and kept the team alive despite all kinds of political bullshit going on around him. He showed he had the capacity and the will to do what he had to in year one, and he came through.

Winter has neither the resume of Schmid, nor the obstacles faced by Kreis to point to, on the contrary, he is a highly paid specialist, head-hunted for the job of making the team competetive, in a well funded, well supported club with state of the art facilities, a SSS and grass.

I never said fire him, but Im telling you he's not doing very well right now, despite the hyperbole about:

culture errrrrrr...... posession...errrrrr....rebuilding errrrrrr.....and......taking time to learn this attractive football......errrrrrrrrrr...patience from the fans.

backbeat
04-18-2011, 09:34 PM
you can 'turn around' a team in the MLS in under 1 year. If you are serious about it.

3 years? ha.

i'm sure it is possible....and then start all over again and again and again - the difference is we ARE trying to employ a long tern strategy through the academy of a culture and system and player development... you may not believe in it or like it, so be it...but i am happy to wait it out.....i do not want the McDonald's instant gratification method...i'd really like to see a system developed, like what was announced today that deals with player development into a consistent system that will produce a team that stays near the top of the table on-going...

king dave
04-18-2011, 09:36 PM
What? In Schmid's first MLS gig he took over a crappy LA and won the western conference, and earned coach of the year.

He followed that up with the semi finals and actually winning the CONCACAF cup.

Followed by the Open Cup, a Shield and Cup double.
Schmid had all that to show for his 'system' when Columbus were tanking, and frankly, if schmid were to come here and declare he was 'rebuilding' I would be a lot more comfortable because a coach like that can point to his track record and say 'i know what the fuck is going on round here'

What about Kreis? This guy took over the team mid-season after the coach was shown the door, retired as a player to do so, and kept the team alive despite all kinds of political bullshit going on around him. He showed he had the capacity and the will to do what he had to in year one, and he came through.

Winter has neither the resume of Schmid, nor the obstacles faced by Kreis to point to, on the contrary, he is a highly paid specialist, head-hunted for the job of making the team competetive, in a well funded, well supported club with state of the art facilities, a SSS and grass.

I never said fire him, but Im telling you he's not doing very well right now, despite the hyperbole about:

culture errrrrrr...... posession...errrrrr....rebuilding errrrrrr.....and......taking time to learn this attractive football......errrrrrrrrrr...patience from the fans.
^Exact-o-mondo Ian.
KD.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 09:37 PM
You can always switch to Whitecaps no one is holding the gun on your head to follow TFC.

Cant think why you'd suggest this, everything he said was truth and he wouldnt say it if he didnt give a rats arse would he?

backbeat
04-18-2011, 09:42 PM
What? In Schmid's first MLS gig he took over a crappy LA and won the western conference, and earned coach of the year.

He followed that up with the semi finals and actually winning the CONCACAF cup.

Followed by the Open Cup, a Shield and Cup double.
Schmid had all that to show for his 'system' when Columbus were tanking, and frankly, if schmid were to come here and declare he was 'rebuilding' I would be a lot more comfortable because a coach like that can point to his track record and say 'i know what the fuck is going on round here'

What about Kreis? This guy took over the team mid-season after the coach was shown the door, retired as a player to do so, and kept the team alive despite all kinds of political bullshit going on around him. He showed he had the capacity and the will to do what he had to in year one, and he came through.

Winter has neither the resume of Schmid, nor the obstacles faced by Kreis to point to, on the contrary, he is a highly paid specialist, head-hunted for the job of making the team competetive, in a well funded, well supported club with state of the art facilities, a SSS and grass.

I never said fire him, but Im telling you he's not doing very well right now, despite the hyperbole about:

culture errrrrrr...... posession...errrrrr....rebuilding errrrrrr.....and......taking time to learn this attractive football......errrrrrrrrrr...patience from the fans.

Winter and team aren't doing well??? are you for real???

it has been 3 f'n months!! give it a break man!!

and you want culture, rebuilding , taking time to learn?? in 3 months?? really?

well i'm glad (or hoping) they're not listening to you 'cuz all we'd be doing is rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding...ad infinitum.....

take the time to put in a long term plan and structure that develops a system and players for ongoing success NOT building a quick fix to satiate the instant gratification generation...please....

king dave
04-18-2011, 09:50 PM
Can't help but think of the old 'follow the bouncing ball' scenario.

MLSE to TFC to MOJO to $$$$$$ to lack of success to unhappy supporters to more $$$$$$$ to town halls to outside consultant to 'random saviour' to lack of success to more $$$$$$$$ to more unhappy supporters to . . . ?
Like I say?

'I will chase a dream and win.
But I refuse to chase a parked Vespa.' KD, 04/18/11.
KD.

backbeat
04-18-2011, 09:53 PM
Can't help but think of the old 'follow the bouncing ball' scenario.

MLSE to TFC to MOJO to $$$$$$ to lack of success to unhappy supporters to more $$$$$$$ to town halls to outside consultant to 'random saviour' to lack of success to more $$$$$$$$ to more unhappy supporters to . . . ?
Like I say?

'I will chase a dream and win.
But I refuse to chase a parked Vespa.' KD, 04/18/11.
KD.

the 'random saviour' has been given 3 months by you - and you really think that is ok?? you're pissing on Winter after 3 months???

king dave
04-18-2011, 09:56 PM
take the time to put in a long term plan and structure that develops a system and players for ongoing success NOT building a quick fix to satiate the instant gratification generation...please....
Are you on fucking Crack?
I am just kidding man.
This culture of young people today? Will demand success and if not?
They will move away.
Sounds like you are a committed supporter.
And that is a very good thing kiddo.
But Toronto has a history of bringing pro-sports 'gurus' in to fix things and they never get fucking fixed.
But I love your gumption kid.
Are you a drinker?
KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 09:58 PM
the 'random saviour' has been given 3 months by you - and you really think that is ok?? you're pissing on Winter after 3 months???
I think I love this fucking douche!!!
And I piss wherever I fucking want:D
KD.

backbeat
04-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Are you on fucking Crack?
I am just kidding man.
This culture of young people today? Will demand success and if not?
They will move away.
Sounds like you are a committed supporter.
And that is a very good thing kiddo.
But Toronto has a history of bringing pro-sports 'gurus' in to fix things and they never get fucking fixed.
But I love your gumption kid.
Are you a drinker?
KD.

yes i am a drinker - - and proud of it!!!

as for gurus in T.O. - haven't seen them

never-the-less i give Winter more than a single season

and i do believe they have got it right..

just me i guess...

backbeat
04-18-2011, 10:00 PM
I think I love this fucking douche!!!
And I piss wherever I fucking want:D
KD.

glad to hear it - me too!!

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:00 PM
^I think we are gonna get along very, very well.
Pm me.
KD.

backbeat
04-18-2011, 10:03 PM
^I think we are gonna get along very, very well.
Pm me.
KD.

:drinking: :scarf:

we love the same team....

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:08 PM
Are you Catholic?
KD.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 10:22 PM
Winter and team aren't doing well??? are you for real???

it has been 3 f'n months!! give it a break man!!

and you want culture, rebuilding , taking time to learn?? in 3 months?? really?

well i'm glad (or hoping) they're not listening to you 'cuz all we'd be doing is rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding...ad infinitum.....

take the time to put in a long term plan and structure that develops a system and players for ongoing success NOT building a quick fix to satiate the instant gratification generation...please....

First, you need to tone it down. Im saying that after three months, his performance has been below average, and he hasnt done anything to reassure us that his plan will work. Im not 'pissing on him' or calling for his head.

Your last paragraph is just hot air, what does it actually mean? What is this system for ongoing success and how will it look when its fully implemented? Has Winter illustrated this or how he thinks he can adapt to MLS in order to implement this system for the first time in his career?

I am saying quite bluntly that there is NOTHING to suggest that this long term plan is feasible, workable or even credible in this league. There is NOTHING to suggest Winter is capable of implementing such a plan in this league or in any other,

So when it looks like its not working, it might not be because the system takes time, it might actually be because 'its not working'

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:23 PM
Chance, "Yes! There will be growth in the spring!"
KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:29 PM
First, you need to tone it down. Im saying that after three months, his performance has been below average, and he hasnt done anything to reassure us that his plan will work. Im not 'pissing on him' or calling for his head.

Your last paragraph is just hot air, what does it actually mean? What is this system for ongoing success and how will it look when its fully implemented? Has Winter illustrated this or how he thinks he can adapt to MLS in order to implement this system for the first time in his career?

I am saying quite bluntly that there is NOTHING to suggest that this long term plan is feasible, workable or even credible in this league. There is NOTHING to suggest Winter is capable of implementing such a plan in this league or in any other,

So when it looks like its not working, it might not be because the system takes time, it might actually be because 'its not working'
Are you a fucking Catholic?
We/us are old fucking twats, NO?
These mess. boards are full of youth.
Your comments are unbelievabely whats' roaming in my fucking head.
This is why we will never . .
But I love the dialogue here tonight.
And I am up forit.
The fucking punks have gone to bed
Fucking right!
KD.

sashavukelich
04-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Mods - Can we please clean up this troll mess and get back on topic?

Thanks.

Kreis had a rough start with RSL, i think winter at lesat needs 2-3 transfer windows to evaluate his 'vision' for TFC. The man has had one and is still bound to many poor players from other management groups. He needs to shift a LOT of players to get what he needs.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:42 PM
Mods - Can we please clean up this troll mess and get back on topic?

Thanks.

Kreis had a rough start with RSL, i think winter at lesat needs 2-3 transfer windows to evaluate his 'vision' for TFC. The man has had one and is still bound to many poor players from other management groups. He needs to shift a LOT of players to get what he needs.
I think you are right.
Nothing but fucking bullshit here.
Mods?
KD.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 10:44 PM
I think you are right.
Nothing but fucking bullshit here.
Mods?
KD.

I was Catholic once. Im from fucking Merseyside.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:45 PM
Very nice to discuss wth you backbeat:)
Looi forward to having a pint with you.
KD.

brad
04-18-2011, 10:46 PM
Kreis had a rough start with RSL, i think winter at lesat needs 2-3 transfer windows to evaluate his 'vision' for TFC. The man has had one and is still bound to many poor players from other management groups. He needs to shift a LOT of players to get what he needs.

I think you can get an idea long before 2-3 transfer windows. After 10-12 games, you can evaluate the signings he's made and get an idea of how good he is at bringing players in.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:46 PM
I was Catholic once. Im from fucking Merseyside.
And what about your children Ian?:D
KD.

brad
04-18-2011, 10:49 PM
I am saying quite bluntly that there is NOTHING to suggest that this long term plan is feasible, workable or even credible in this league. There is NOTHING to suggest Winter is capable of implementing such a plan in this league or in any other

We are being asked to show blind faith by an organization that has given us no reason to give it to them.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:49 PM
I think you can get an idea long before 2-3 transfer windows. After 10-12 games, you can evaluate the signings he's made and get an idea of how good he is at bringing players in.

Brad 1 - 0 Saskahana Hat Co. - FT.
KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 10:52 PM
We are being asked to show blind faith by an organization that has given us no reason to give it to them.
Are you drunk?
Because that pretty much somes up everytihing is the fewest words.
Nice.
Well done.
KD.

brad
04-18-2011, 11:05 PM
One more point. We turned to Klinsmann as a consultant on how to fix this club. What track record does he have of doing this? I look at his history and I see a marvelous player, a questionable stint in coaching, and pretty much no track record of success in the sort of role that TFC hired him for.

As with Winter, lack of track record doesn't mean this will fail, it just puzzles me a bit.

The pessimist in me trying not to think that MLSE got fleeced.

king dave
04-18-2011, 11:14 PM
One more point. We turned to Klinsmann as a consultant on how to fix this club. What track record does he have of doing this? I look at his history and I see a marvelous player, a questionable stint in coaching, and pretty much no track record of success in the sort of role that TFC hired him for.

As with Winter, lack of track record doesn't mean this will fail, it just puzzles me a bit.

The pessimist in me trying not to think that MLSE got fleeced.
Now I am gonna prepare my final drinky poo' of the night and give you my take.
I am gonna take a piss and be back in 5 min. you fucking punks.
Stay 'outatune

KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Okay I am back.
Are you prepared?
Well here we go kids.
Hold the rope and stay with the fucking tour.
First off?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTUEAL9nFMY

KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 11:24 PM
First?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Teachers%27_Pension_Plan
KD.

king dave
04-18-2011, 11:27 PM
2nd, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Tanenbaum
KD.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:33 PM
So because MLSE has fucked up before (MANY times) we should automatically assume any attempt they make will fail? We should railroad anyone who comes into town just because they were hired by MLSE? Blind faith we don't need to have but for fucks sake if we won't even give people a chance to fix things then we're fucked forever. And besides, KD, MLSE is selling. By the end of next offseason Rogers or someone else will own it all, and we can scapegoat someone different for a few months.

king dave
04-18-2011, 11:51 PM
So because MLSE has fucked up before (MANY times) we should automatically assume any attempt they make will fail? We should railroad anyone who comes into town just because they were hired by MLSE? Blind faith we don't need to have but for fucks sake if we won't even give people a chance to fix things then we're fucked forever. And besides, KD, MLSE is selling. By the end of next offseason Rogers or someone else will own it all, and we can scapegoat someone different for a few months.[/quote]
Man O fucking man!
I can only hope that some other fucking org. gets its fucking mits on this team ASAP.
Scapegoat?
As a supporter, I have a thick fucking hide.
I also have a fucking brain.
And that brain enables me to think in a logical manner.
Although. Only of the good days:D
But my 5o year old brain tells me thinkgs and I have to listen.
Oh. Scapegoat?

Pass the chutney and the rice.
KD.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:58 PM
So because MLSE has fucked up before (MANY times) we should automatically assume any attempt they make will fail? We should railroad anyone who comes into town just because they were hired by MLSE? Blind faith we don't need to have but for fucks sake if we won't even give people a chance to fix things then we're fucked forever. And besides, KD, MLSE is selling. By the end of next offseason Rogers or someone else will own it all, and we can scapegoat someone different for a few months.
Man O fucking man!
I can only hope that some other fucking org. gets its fucking mits on this team ASAP.
Scapegoat?
As a supporter, I have a thick fucking hide.
I also have a fucking brain.
And that brain enables me to think in a logical manner.
Although. Only of the good days:D
But my 5o year old brain tells me thinkgs and I have to listen.
Oh. Scapegoat?

Pass the chutney and the rice.
KD.[/QUOTE]

I think we let a lot of other problems go ignored, and a lot of other blame go unassigned because it's easy to say the clubs problems are MLSE. I think/hope we fixed those with the Winter/Mariner hirings, but who knows. I don't know if changing owners instantly fixes any of the teams problems though, short of the rare Marc Cuban type buying the group. The fact of the matter is large faceless ignorant corporations own most sports teams. Even if we get a new owner in all likelyhood it'd be trading red delicious for Macintosh. Apples for Apples. It's not like MLSE is heavily involved in day to day stuff with TFC- they own something like 100 billion dollars worth of businesses, one worth 100 million or less isn't worth their time or effort. And rogers would be the same. It's the people they put in charge that we have to worry about. And as of January thats Winter/Mariner. If Rogers were hired tomorrow would that change? Odds are that they wouldn't. And if they did it probably wouldn't be for the better.

king dave
04-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Goodnight gang.
Great chatting with you fucking live-at-home-douches.
I am just a cowboy here.
Thanks you fucks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B435SzgfRk&feature=fvsr

KD.

123 elite
04-19-2011, 06:07 AM
Goodnight gang.
Great chatting with you fucking live-at-home-douches.
I am just a cowboy here.
Thanks you fucks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B435SzgfRk&feature=fvsr

KD.


Sometimes its better to write in real sentences than giant font if you have a point to make.

flatpicker
04-19-2011, 06:43 AM
^ You should spend more time getting to know King Dave. ;)

CoachGT
04-19-2011, 07:33 AM
I still believe.

If you don't believe, or don't want to believe, why bother following the team at all. There must be better uses of your time.

Suds
04-19-2011, 07:47 AM
i'm sure it is possible....and then start all over again and again and again - the difference is we ARE trying to employ a long tern strategy through the academy of a culture and system and player development... you may not believe in it or like it, so be it...but i am happy to wait it out.....i do not want the McDonald's instant gratification method...i'd really like to see a system developed, like what was announced today that deals with player development into a consistent system that will produce a team that stays near the top of the table on-going...

I'm definitely on the side of building a long-term program that is built around a playing style and a system players from young are taught to play. Time will tell if Aaron Winter and his team will succeed in this.

Sure, it's easy to grab a bunch of players and then find a style to fit them. The challenge with that is, every year your team is different so every year you're trying to implement a new style. That does not seem logical to me. Also, every coach employs their own style or formation to some degree. So they are always trying to fit players in to how they want their teams to play.

It will take many years before we see the results of being able to pick a player out of the academy and say - here, you're playing the #2 role and the kid knows what to do. But I would rather work towards that than roll the dice each year and hope we can figure out a system for whatever 20 players we have that year.

As for Winter as a head coach - the jury is still out. We do not have enough of a track record to make a determination either way.

brad
04-19-2011, 08:02 AM
I still believe.

If you don't believe, or don't want to believe, why bother following the team at all. There must be better uses of your time.

I don't agree with this - there is a middle ground.

I support the team, I renewed my tickets and will continue to go the matches. I will continue to support them even if they don't magically turn things around.

I hope that Winter and Co. can turn this thing around. I don't want to see them replaced, I think they've been hired an should be given a chance to change things.

That's different from actually believing it will happen though. TFC's execs have no track record of being able to deliver a quality product. They have a history of lying to us to tell us what we want to hear to placate us and get us to renew our tickets. MLSE has no track record of having teams that are capable of winning. There are enough huge question marks over the people they have brought in and the process of how the came in to make me question.

I short - I hope it happens, but I no longer blindly believe the party line from the FO. I'll believe what I can see with my own two eyes.

The old quote rings true to me "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" Except this is the fifth time....

123 elite
04-19-2011, 08:15 AM
I still believe.

If you don't believe, or don't want to believe, why bother following the team at all. There must be better uses of your time.

Why do people keep coming out with this kind of comment when you are critical of the team. I've been watching them for 5 years now. I like watching them. I think they're crap so far. I'll still watch them. I love football. they play on my doorstep. Its not like i can switch channel here. I don't believe in santa but i still enjoy christmas.

CoachGT
04-19-2011, 08:28 AM
Why do people keep coming out with this kind of comment when you are critical of the team. I've been watching them for 5 years now. I like watching them. I think they're crap so far. I'll still watch them. I love football. they play on my doorstep. Its not like i can switch channel here. I don't believe in santa but i still enjoy christmas.

Why? Because even a positive thread ends up with people who want to point out doom and gloom. It gets tiring to read. And this isn't a thread about the front office. It is about what we see on the field.

I get Brad's point - it may be too early for some. But at the same point, too early still indicates hope. Even an inkling of it. I'm not talking about that. But if you think that it is going to be horrible, my guess is that you'll find what you are looking for.

DangerRed
04-19-2011, 08:46 AM
Why? Because even a positive thread ends up with people who want to point out doom and gloom. It gets tiring to read. And this isn't a thread about the front office. It is about what we see on the field.

I get Brad's point - it may be too early for some. But at the same point, too early still indicates hope. Even an inkling of it. I'm not talking about that. But if you think that it is going to be horrible, my guess is that you'll find what you are looking for.

What? Here's a novel take: why not, instead of faith-based "hope" judgments, you make yours based on fact and what we've seen to date. We're third last in our conference and the two teams below us have two games in hand on us. Each.

We can't score. We can't defend. Our coach has said publicly he's ashamed of the way we played on Saturday. We have won one game out of the first six. We're in a two-way tie for the worst goal differential in the league. Our players don't give a shit - they let other teams taunt our supporters after they score on us, and more often than not, they hang their heads and give up the moment they start losing.

Against all of that, the strongest argument you (and others in the "positive story" camp) put up is that "too early" indicates there is still hope.

I would humbly suggest that if you take all of that on aggregate, and you still think supporters have no right to express concern with the current state of the club and to criticize the team, its players and a number of recent roster decisions, then you're being completely unrealistic.

123 elite
04-19-2011, 08:49 AM
I thought this was a discussion board. I'm all for positive points but not when there are clearly none. Like i have said... i don't see how you can call a defence that takes the ball to the halfway line/byline then runs back and passes straight across field eventually back to the goalie for a punt up to the opposition, a midfield that cannot pass or hold the ball up, 2 wingers who despite their skills hang on to the ball so long that they end up boxed in at the corner flag surrounded by three defenders with the nearest redshirt having a smoke up at the halway line and misfiring strikers A SYSTEM. Its not anything. Thats what has been on display. You can talk about plans and systems all you want but that is the evidence.
Most of the goals with have come from individual moments eg Santos v Van, long balls... Martina v Portland, set pieces...chivas. the only goal i have seen that showed any kind of team play was v San Jose. As for team effort Santos glaring fuck up v Chivas said it all. What system is that ? How can i believe in that.

WE traded our 2 top scorers and replaced them with players who have not shown anything YET, we have our 2 best defenders from last year underperforming, we have Peterson, Gargan and Harden starting regularly when most thought them very tradable last year or at least only as back up and we have a bunch of signings that aren't getting much air time. What is the system ? What is the plan?

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 08:51 AM
It's important to temper expectations with rational thought. TFC is now the youngest team in the league. Youth traditionally equates inconsistency in professional sports. The result is an inspiring performance in San Jose and the debacle against DC United within the span of a week.

Based on the potential of the players that constitute our first team, I think this club can eventually be competitive this season if healthy and motivated.

The glaring deficiency in both ugly losses this season has been questionable tactics deployed that exploited a vulnerable backline. I'm confident that Winter will recognize that opponents are pressing forward and pouncing on turnovers, and make the necessary personnel/tactical adjustments.

I believe our most reliable backline has yet to be fielded for a match, which will go a long way to improving the defensive acumen of the club. I would like Winter to deploy Yourassowsky and Eckersley as the fullbacks to determine if they are more adept at closing the gaps on the wings, pushing forward, and distributing the ball. I also believe that the centrebacks consisting of Cann, Nana, Williams, and Harden should simplify their game based on their skillset.

If TFC can limit the number of defensive errors moving forward, the club will have a chance to earn a result in every match. Let's hope Winter will make the necessary adjustments.

Davenport
04-19-2011, 09:01 AM
Sorry, but anyone who thinks that this current squad will do well is seriously deluded.
Thanks to Johnston this club is no further down the road than in 2007 and the great patience shown by fans is starting to wear thin.
One win after 6 games...4 at home... is not good and does not bode well for the rest of the summer.
There was so much potential here and it's going to take an awful lot of work to repair the damage.

trane
04-19-2011, 09:37 AM
Someone must be passing out the cool-aid. There has been absolutely nothing other than talk to suggest there is a system at all. I seriously wonder if you are watching the same team as me. We have no midfield. We have strikers or attacking midfielders that don't have a clue where anyone else is and we have the most inept defence i've seen in 5 years of watching this and that includes 2 players who were rocks last season. Frei gets a pass. He isn't god afterall.


Me????? ahahahahahaha.Helll no. I just call it as I see it, give in another five games and if I see things that suggest that we are realy going nowehere, I will join Exiled Red. I just like the overall stated vision and goals, and some of the things he is trying to do, as well as most of the players he has brought in, Martina, Stevanovic, the kid from New York, and I see that there is true potential. But at some point it will have to be more then stated vision and goals, but results, he needs some more time.

[ I do wish that the process was started sooner but that is on the MLSE not winter]

brad
04-19-2011, 09:42 AM
What? Here's a novel take: why not, instead of faith-based "hope" judgments, you make yours based on fact and what we've seen to date. We're third last in our conference and the two teams below us have two games in hand on us. Each.

This is largely the approach I am taking, except I don't feel I have enough information yet to base an opinion on. Our start is questionable, that is is expected and no indication as to how we will do. Plenty of teams have slow starts and turn it around. I remember Columbus going winless for a long time before they turned it around and were a dominate force that season.

There are two many x-factors right now, and too many things we don't know. This is not a laundry list - I don't have time to post my complete thoughts, but it is things like

-players Winter has brought in that we are not playing. Take Williams. Winter signed him, he had a brief appearance and hasn't played since. Maybe he is a dud and that's why he's not playing. Or maybe he's a stud that will solidify this back line but he is carrying a knock. We don't know yet.
-what they will do with the cap space. They have it,and the DeRo trade opened things up as well. Do they spend it or not? Do we end up with another Mista or JPA caliber player (from his first couple of seasons)
-Winter an co's ability to judge talent. With the exception of Gordon, I have question marks on every player that he signed (including Steva and Martina). Not saying they are good, bad or average yet, but none of his signing have yet to wow me beyond a strong performance in a single match.

trane
04-19-2011, 09:51 AM
Sorry, but anyone who thinks that this current squad will do well is seriously deluded.
Thanks to Johnston this club is no further down the road than in 2007 and the great patience shown by fans is starting to wear thin.
One win after 6 games...4 at home... is not good and does not bode well for the rest of the summer.
There was so much potential here and it's going to take an awful lot of work to repair the damage.


We are shit. We have been shit for 4+ years, I have been saying this very loadly for very long. But now we have a clear and logical plan, and I think it is the right one. I believe that it can work. We will see. If five games in we are still the same shit team, maybe my view will change. But I base it on what I see on the pitch. I do not care what others see on the pitch, I base my opinion on what I see on the pitch. What I see on the pitch is a work in progress which seesm to be pointed in the right direction. A direction I want them to go in.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Faith based football - If you believe hard enough, actual evidence becomes irrelevant!

trane
04-19-2011, 10:06 AM
^ What????? We are shit, we have been shit. But do you expect that we become Bayern Munich overnight? I am not one to preach patience, but I am one that understands that a team in not build over a couple of games.

I means seriously have you ever read any of my post of the past four season, do I strike you are the guy to simply believe blindly?

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:11 AM
but I am one that understands that a team in not build over a couple of games.

They have played 140+ games mate -- and continue to be awful, and in many regards they are getting worse. Faith, I am afraid, is not enough for this team to get better. Money is required.

trane
04-19-2011, 10:13 AM
^ What? Seriously are you telling me????

Winter has not been here 140+ games, "mate". If you want to know my position on the past four years, there are plenty of post that will tell you.


Money is required? What a roster with 10 DPs plus Frie? Money is only part of the answer.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:17 AM
^ What? Seriously are you telling me????

Winter has not been here 140+ games, "mate". If you want to know my position on the past four years, there are plenty of post that will tell you.

The fact that after over 4 years in existence that no progress has been made -- and we are back to square one yet again should be all the evidence you need that organizationally we continue to flounder. Graduating a load of kids from the academy and doing some window dressing is not enough to make progress. Season 5 is going to make season 4 look good. Keep believing though :)

trane
04-19-2011, 10:29 AM
^ We are back at square one, because we had too. Yes that is what I am about blind faith, you got it "mate".


What is your point anyway, we suck, so we will always suck. How do you propose to change things, other then going through the process that we are undertaking. Overwise we will keep on being shit.

Beach_Red
04-19-2011, 10:36 AM
The fact that after over 4 years in existence that no progress has been made -- and we are back to square one yet again should be all the evidence you need that organizationally we continue to flounder. Graduating a load of kids from the academy and doing some window dressing is not enough to make progress. Season 5 is going to make season 4 look good. Keep believing though :)


It's not true that "no progress has been made." this team started from scratch. An infrastructure had to be built. It was built too slowly, no doubt, and it's not finished yet, but it is improving.

There was clearly no proper business plan from the beginning that increased investment in any organized, directed way. The organization scrambled for four years with inexperienced people obvisouly in over their heads and only started to get their act together when they were passed by other teams and put under pressure by supporters.

What happened in the off season - hiring the consultant and putting together a plan - is what should have been done as soon as they were given the franchise, but it wasn't. There's not much point in worrying about that now, but there's also not much point in refusing to see that things have changed.

trane
04-19-2011, 10:38 AM
^ Thank you.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:41 AM
^ We are back at square one, because we had too. Yes that is what I am about blind faith, you got it "mate".


What is your point anyway, we suck, so we will always suck. How do you propose to change things, other then going through the process that we are going throug. Overwise we will keep on being shit.

The process -- the management trying to force a system of play the players are not equipped to cope with and is unnatural. Over reliance of young (cheap) players. Failure to invest in depth. Failure to invest in talent. The virtual assurance that their will be no investment in DP talent this season.

If a ship is on the wrong course -- you do not get a new captain and not change course.

trane
04-19-2011, 10:44 AM
^ Well, you believe a different solution and direction is need. Fair enough. I agree with the present direction, as I think that we need to implement and teach one system of play, and built a squad around that system of play.

I think that footy is not just about tallent, but the merging of the right tallent with the right system for that tallent. I think this is what Winter is trying to do. We will see if it will work.

__wowza
04-19-2011, 10:47 AM
i gotta agree with trane on here.
i think we all agree, it's just everyone has a different view of "progress".


some think progress means: a winning team / good GD / a playoff run
some think it means: a young team / a new system implemented / a youth academy


neither are wrong, but that doesn't stop us from arguing about it. whether we like to admit it or not, this team has made progress. we may not be winning, but we're moving forward and showing signs of a serious cup/CCL run in the next 5 years. i'm talking consistent top of the table and never looking back. i can see it happening, and i intend to hold out hope of that view until the day it escapes me.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:48 AM
there's also not much point in refusing to see that things have changed.

After six games:

2007 - 6 points
2008 - 10 points
2009 - 8 points
2010 - 8 points
2011 - 6 points

Yes - things have certainly changed. How foolish of me to refuse to see the obvious improvement...

trane
04-19-2011, 10:50 AM
^ You are right. We are wrong. Discussion done.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 10:59 AM
^ You are right. We are wrong. Discussion done.

If only everything were that easy!

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 11:04 AM
After six games:

2007 - 6 points
2008 - 10 points
2009 - 8 points
2010 - 8 points
2011 - 6 points

Yes - things have certainly changed. How foolish of me to refuse to see the obvious improvement...

In case you haven't noticed, no one that I recall has predicted a successful club on the pitch this season. If anything, even the most optimistic supporters have cautioned that this is a rebuilding year and are ready to accept what has been a slow start out of the gate with the hope that the team will gradually improve throughout the season.

Is it acceptable to be asked for more patience given the struggles of the franchise for the first four years? Guess what, that is up to each individual. Don't fool yourself into expecting immediate results with this club and then you won't be bitter over the results in the short term. Winter and Mariner deserve better than to be saddled with unrealistic expectations as a result of the clusterfuck that they inherited.

The infrastucture of the club is finally being built in a manner that is condusive to long term stability and success. If this was year one, the current regime was in place, and the plans for the Academy complex were initiated, everyone would be ecstatic despite the results on the pitch thus far.

Davenport
04-19-2011, 11:05 AM
i gotta agree with trane on here.
i think we all agree, it's just everyone has a different view of "progress".


some think progress means: a winning team / good GD / a playoff run
some think it means: a young team / a new system implemented / a youth academy


neither are wrong, but that doesn't stop us from arguing about it. whether we like to admit it or not, this team has made progress. we may not be winning, but we're moving forward and showing signs of a serious cup/CCL run in the next 5 years. i'm talking consistent top of the table and never looking back. i can see it happening, and i intend to hold out hope of that view until the day it escapes me.

Tell me one thing that proves that.

v00d00daddy
04-19-2011, 11:14 AM
Well I guess I'm nuts.

For the first time in 5 years I'm optimistic.

We have a coach that is trying to implement a brand new style...from the academy right on up.

We have a coach that doesn't take shut from his players and wants a team above all else.

Gone are the days of hoofing the ball up field for no reason.

Growing pains are to expected imo.

It's funny that people can predict doom and gloom after 5-6 games. Kreskins everywhere. Lol

Only time will tell. What should happen in the meantime?

Fire winter?
Pine for deros return?
Continue to whine about opposing players who gloat when they score?

Fuck that.
This is the first time since season 1 where I think grinning and bearing it is required.

Just my take. We will get better.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 11:19 AM
In case you haven't noticed, no one that I recall has predicted a successful club on the pitch this season. If anything, even the most optimistic supporters have cautioned that this is a rebuilding year and are ready to accept what has been a slow start out of the gate with the hope that the team will gradually improve throughout the season.

Is it acceptable to be asked for more patience given the struggles of the franchise for the first four years? Guess what, that is up to each individual. Don't fool yourself into expecting immediate results with this club and then you won't be bitter over the results in the short term. Winter and Mariner deserve better than to be saddled with unrealistic expectations as a result of the clusterfuck that they inherited.

The infrastucture of the club is finally being built in a manner that is condusive to long term stability and success. If this was year one, the current regime was in place, and the plans for the Academy complex were initiated, everyone would be ecstatic despite the results on the pitch thus far.

Rebuilding year - or similar notion - appears to be unique to North American sports. This, I feel, is in part due to the passive nature of the support. In particular, Toronto sports fans have come to epitomize this passive acceptance that results take time -- and we shouldn't expect too much too soon.

The owners of Toronto FC did not defer charging us full price to see a work-in-progress team for 4 seasons -- and they are still charging us full price to see another work-in-porgress. If we were being offered a discount to watch an experiment, I could understand the patience requests and would perhaps agree with their requests. However - this is not the case. Paying full price affords us with the right to demand a team that is capable and able.

Rebuilding year, or whatever you want to call it, is simply a scheme to buy time and to further pacify the consumers. Next year we will be better...

v00d00daddy
04-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Sorry about the illegible nature of my post.
iPhone + fat thumbs = bad posts
Lol
Too much of a pain to edit

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 11:25 AM
Rebuilding year - or similar notion - appears to be unique to North American sports. This, I feel, is in part due to the passive nature of the support. In particular, Toronto sports fans have come to epitomize this passive acceptance that results take time -- and we shouldn't expect too much too soon.

The owners of Toronto FC did not defer charging us full price to see a work-in-progress team for 4 seasons -- and they are still charging us full price to see another work-in-porgress. If we were being offered a discount to watch an experiment, I could understand the patience requests and would perhaps agree with their requests. However - this is not the case. Paying full price affords us with the right to demand a team that is capable and able.

Rebuilding year, or whatever you want to call it, is simply a scheme to buy time and to further pacify the consumers. Next year we will be better...

Ah, but this is a separate issue, and one in which I share your opinion. The ticket pricing structure is completely ridiculous throughout the majority of sections in the stadium, regardless of the results on the pitch.

Personally, I am willing to bare it because my seasons tickets are still a reasonable value at the current price point.

__wowza
04-19-2011, 11:28 AM
whether we like to admit it or not, this team has made progress


Tell me one thing that proves that.

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/downsview-become-academy-home
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/laying-down-roots
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/doneil-henry
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/nicholas-lindsay
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/keith-makubuya
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/ashtone-morgan
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/matt-stinson
http://www.eyeweekly.com/city/sports/article/104114--toronto-fc-says-they-re-sorry
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2011/04/01/dobson_toronto_fc_derosario/
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/10/23/toronto_fc_tickets/


do you want me to keep going?
or would you like to invalidate:

- a promised price freeze
- 4 academy graduates
- a new million $ training facility
- the clubs public apology to fans and acknowledgment of failure
- the town hall meetings
- the dero trade
- a free home opener

as worthless, meaningless gestures by a club that's no better than they were five years ago?

torontocelt
04-19-2011, 11:37 AM
It's important to temper expectations with rational thought. TFC is now the youngest team in the league. Youth traditionally equates inconsistency in professional sports. The result is an inspiring performance in San Jose and the debacle against DC United within the span of a week.

Based on the potential of the players that constitute our first team, I think this club can eventually be competitive this season if healthy and motivated.

The glaring deficiency in both ugly losses this season has been questionable tactics deployed that exploited a vulnerable backline. I'm confident that Winter will recognize that opponents are pressing forward and pouncing on turnovers, and make the necessary personnel/tactical adjustments.

I believe our most reliable backline has yet to be fielded for a match, which will go a long way to improving the defensive acumen of the club. I would like Winter to deploy Yourassowsky and Eckersley as the fullbacks to determine if they are more adept at closing the gaps on the wings, pushing forward, and distributing the ball. I also believe that the centrebacks consisting of Cann, Nana, Williams, and Harden should simplify their game based on their skillset.

If TFC can limit the number of defensive errors moving forward, the club will have a chance to earn a result in every match. Let's hope Winter will make the necessary adjustments.

Our first team is weak, we are still playing some players who should not be getting a sniff at a game. Our squad is extremely weak, we have no depth. At present the squad is a real shambles, it really is a product of complete mismanagement over a course of years.

trane
04-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Well I guess I'm nuts.

For the first time in 5 years I'm optimistic.

We have a coach that is trying to implement a brand new style...from the academy right on up.

We have a coach that doesn't take shut from his players and wants a team above all else.

Gone are the days of hoofing the ball up field for no reason.

Growing pains are to expected imo.

It's funny that people can predict doom and gloom after 5-6 games. Kreskins everywhere. Lol

Only time will tell. What should happen in the meantime?

Fire winter?
Pine for deros return?
Continue to whine about opposing players who gloat when they score?

Fuck that.
This is the first time since season 1 where I think grinning and bearing it is required.

Just my take. We will get better.

Agree.

Funny, thing is me and you were two of the biggest critics, and now we are called kool aid drinkers.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 11:46 AM
LOL

I find that ironic.

I don't know... put me down for some kool aid as well.

torontocelt
04-19-2011, 11:48 AM
In case you haven't noticed, no one that I recall has predicted a successful club on the pitch this season. If anything, even the most optimistic supporters have cautioned that this is a rebuilding year and are ready to accept what has been a slow start out of the gate with the hope that the team will gradually improve throughout the season.

Is it acceptable to be asked for more patience given the struggles of the franchise for the first four years? Guess what, that is up to each individual. Don't fool yourself into expecting immediate results with this club and then you won't be bitter over the results in the short term. Winter and Mariner deserve better than to be saddled with unrealistic expectations as a result of the clusterfuck that they inherited.

The infrastucture of the club is finally being built in a manner that is condusive to long term stability and success. If this was year one, the current regime was in place, and the plans for the Academy complex were initiated, everyone would be ecstatic despite the results on the pitch thus far.

Winter himself set a goal of the play offs regardless of the rebuilding taking place.

trane
04-19-2011, 11:49 AM
LOL

I find that ironic.

I don't know... put me down for some kool aid as well.

It ironic as hell. But we have been calling for change, now we get it, we have to hold and see, at least for a while.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Our first team is weak, we are still playing some players who should not be getting a sniff at a game. Our squad is extremely weak, we have no depth. At present the squad is a real shambles, it really is a product of complete mismanagement over a course of years.

Obviously there is much work to be done, but I don't believe the outlook is as hopeless as you portray. I think there are alternatives within the current roster that have not been implemented yet that will allow for a modest improvement.

We have no basis to judge Eckersely at RB, Williams at CB, Yourassowsky as a regular starting LB, Cordon as an AM, etc.

Until Winter experiments with the lineup and finds the most effective combination of players to constitute the first team, we have no basis to reach any concrete conclusions one way or the other.

My personal opinion is that the players waiting in the wings should provide an upgrade in the weakest areas of the starting lineup.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Winter himself set a goal of the play offs regardless of the rebuilding taking place.

Winter also cautioned that it would take time. In this league, a team can flounder in the first half and still qualify for the playoffs with a strong finish to the season.

__wowza
04-19-2011, 11:55 AM
It ironic as hell. But we have been calling for change, now we get it, we have to hold and see, at least for a while.


fuck that, we're toronto sports fans!!
we want change to happen NOW.


we constantly want.
when we get what we want, suddenly we don't want it anymore because we have it. we're a capitalists wet dream. we can never be happy waiting for results, we get all jittery, start questioning everything and saying "we can do without this" or "we need that".

what we need to do is take the good with the bad in this club.
it's sugar coated poison. i only heard a handful of people mention our academy grads getting field time in the latter half of the season. good vibes don't generate discussion.

DangerRed
04-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Winter also cautioned that it would take time. In this league, a team can flounder in the first half and still qualify for the playoffs with a strong finish to the season.

I look forward to pulling up this comment of yours on the day we mathematically get eliminated from the playoffs. We're front-end loaded on home games this year. That means points later in the year are going to be fewer and fewer and harder to get.

You know who will be a real threat? Sporting Kansas. They don't have a game at home until June 9, already have a road win, already have 4 points and they have two games in hand on us. THAT is a team that expect a "strong finish to the season." Not us. For us to succeed later in the year, we need to fill the huge gaps we have all over the place, from front to back. We need skill. We have very little of that.

dupont
04-19-2011, 12:07 PM
good vibes don't generate discussion.

That is because the media always dwells on the bad over and over and over.
I think people would be a lot happier if everyone decided to boycott the news.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:08 PM
All this ironic coming from the guy with the Stevanovic avatar.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 12:11 PM
I look forward to pulling up this comment of yours on the day we mathematically get eliminated from the playoffs. We're front-end loaded on home games this year. That means points later in the year are going to be fewer and fewer and harder to get.

You know who will be a real threat? Sporting Kansas. They don't have a game at home until June 9, already have a road win, already have 4 points and they have two games in hand on us. THAT is a team that expect a "strong finish to the season." Not us. For us to succeed later in the year, we need to fill the huge gaps we have all over the place, from front to back. We need skill. We have very little of that.

I am not predicting that TFC makes the playoffs, I never have. I was explaining why Winter's proclomation is theoretically plausible despite the fact that he also stated that results on the pitch would take time.

I stand by my prediction that TFC will have a much stronger second half of the season, but the deficit in the standings could very well be too much to overcome at that point.

DangerRed
04-19-2011, 12:11 PM
All this ironic coming from the guy with the Stevanovic avatar.

How's it ironic, exactly? Stevanovic is the best player on the team, head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of pace and technical skill. That doesn't mean anything when everyone around him is horrible and/or disinterested.

You gotta think that even if the guy's an asshole, at least some of the time when he's shaking his head at boneheaded moves by his team mates, he just might be on to something.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:16 PM
Stevanovic may be the most skilled player on the team but he hasn't shown to be the best player on the team. I mean his runs to nowhere, failing to use his teammates properly instead of trying to do constant stepovers, etc.

I guess we should give him time, no?

Suds
04-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Stevanovic may be the most skilled player on the team but he hasn't shown to be the best player on the team. I mean his runs to nowhere, failing to use his teammates properly instead of trying to do constant stepovers, etc.

I guess we should give him time, no?

Kind of set himself up for that one, eh? :D

torontocelt
04-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Winter also cautioned that it would take time. In this league, a team can flounder in the first half and still qualify for the playoffs with a strong finish to the season.


I can understand Winter having to say we are aiming for the play offs, after all he is the leader and he has to install confidence and not make out we will be weak despite the rebuilding taking place. I mean that is what a good leader does, he installs confidence in his players and he also sets standards, he lets them know what he expects. I applaud Winter for doing this but then I question his get out clause of 'it could take time'? This sends out a negative perspective to his players, it allows them to see that mistakes will be tolerated, that there is no immediate goal for players. what he has done is send a mixed message to supporters but worse still to his players, the mental aspect of any sport is important and I think Winter has made a mistake here.

Pookie
04-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Folks need to define "rebuild" a little differently.

This isn't the NHL where teams lose on purpose to go after high draft picks or sign Restricted Free Agents to be the foundation of the future.

"Rebuilding" for TFC is about establishing links to potential pools of future talent. Be that from the Academy or from Winter/Mariner's connections.

In the past, we didn't really have much of an Academy. And outside of First Wave, we didn't have much of a line on talent. It is clear that progress has been made in this regard.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:22 PM
Kind of set himself up for that one, eh? :D

I like Stevanovic.

He's still not used to MLS and his team yet... but I guess the team should bench him.

DangerRed
04-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Stevanovic may be the most skilled player on the team but he hasn't shown to be the best player on the team. I mean his runs to nowhere, failing to use his teammates properly instead of trying to do constant stepovers, etc.

I guess we should give him time, no?

He runs to nowhere because he gets no delivery. He fails to use his team mates because they repeatedly refuse to run forward or make space. He's also been prevented from shining when he gets played at forward instead of the left wing, where he thrives.

I only WISH that giving Stevanovic more time was this team's problem. It isn't. The skill level on this team is low - I think even you will agree on that - and the more likely outcome is that Stevanovic will play only as good as everyone else on the team, rather than everyone else on the team playing as good as Stevanovic.

We have a few good pieces, but we're miles and miles from complete (or even passable). We're like a deformed, unbalanced bodybuilder who only works out three or four muscles in his entire body. It's not a competitive position, to put it mildly.

DangerRed
04-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Kind of set himself up for that one, eh? :D


I like Stevanovic.

He's still not used to MLS and his team yet... but I guess the team should bench him.

Oh boy. Well, good talkin' to ya. I'm done for now. See you in the "TFC-Columbus post game rant thread."

Beach_Red
04-19-2011, 12:26 PM
In the past, we didn't really have much of an Academy. And outside of First Wave, we didn't have much of a line on talent. It is clear that progress has been made in this regard.

This is a very good example of the kind of progress we're talking about.

Suds
04-19-2011, 12:28 PM
He runs to nowhere because he gets no delivery. He fails to use his team mates because they repeatedly refuse to run forward or make space. He's also been prevented from shining when he gets played at forward instead of the left wing, where he thrives.

I only WISH that giving Stevanovic more time was this team's problem. It isn't. The skill level on this team is low - I think even you will agree on that - and the more likely outcome is that Stevanovic will play only as good as everyone else on the team, rather than everyone else on the team playing as good as Stevanovic.

We have a few good pieces, but we're miles and miles from complete (or even passable). We're like a deformed, unbalanced bodybuilder who only works out three or four muscles in his entire body. It's not a competitive position, to put it mildly.

And most people in this thread are not necessarily disputing that. We are not delusional in thinking this team is a good team.

What we are saying is we are seeing glimpses of what could be. What they are trying to do; even though is has not been successful. The point is, some of us feel it's these small signs we see that show we are starting to get on course for the first time in the teams history. More time is needed to decide if it is or is not going to work. I don't think a final conclusion can be made either way.

Some of us are not ready to blow it up and start all over again for the umpteenth time.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:29 PM
DR... that's your assessment of him. But you'll find a ton of people who disagree with you.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but it goes to show that it's not as cut and dried as everyone says.

Results wise, Stevanovic hasn't done anything. I mean aren't goals and assists supposed to be what he does?

Jeffro
04-19-2011, 12:29 PM
I can see progress. I see and understand what we are trying to do and believe that by the summer we will be a much better football team.

I expect that there will be major stumbles along the way, but ultimately for the first time I share the teams vision and goals, and believe that they will be achieved.

I remind people that I was among the first to get of our past sinking ships, I do not think this is one.


I approve this post and this thread. This is how I feel as well.

Some people only see negatives, some people only see positives, some people see things the way they are.

Suds
04-19-2011, 12:30 PM
Oh boy. Well, good talkin' to ya. I'm done for now. See you in the "TFC-Columbus post game rant thread."

Relax. It's just a little sarcasm. We're all TFC fans here.

TFCRegina
04-19-2011, 12:30 PM
How's it ironic, exactly? Stevanovic is the best player on the team, head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of pace and technical skill. That doesn't mean anything when everyone around him is horrible and/or disinterested.

You gotta think that even if the guy's an asshole, at least some of the time when he's shaking his head at boneheaded moves by his team mates, he just might be on to something.

Interesting argument. I've heard it somewhere else with respect to two different players. Didn't hold a lot of water for lots of people. Don't think it will this time either, unless people are hypocrites.

brad
04-19-2011, 12:39 PM
DR... that's your assessment of him. But you'll find a ton of people who disagree with you.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but it goes to show that it's not as cut and dried as everyone says.

Results wise, Stevanovic hasn't done anything. I mean aren't goals and assists supposed to be what he does?

He does a lot of things well, and he also holds the ball for too long. This is not always because the rest of the team isn't showing for him. That's a common cop all to commonly used IMHO (albeit often true).

He will often make the wrong choice and try and take on 2 or 3 players instead of a clear option for support behind him.

McBrace
04-19-2011, 12:41 PM
He runs to nowhere because he gets no delivery. He fails to use his team mates because they repeatedly refuse to run forward or make space. He's also been prevented from shining when he gets played at forward instead of the left wing, where he thrives.

I only WISH that giving Stevanovic more time was this team's problem. It isn't. The skill level on this team is low - I think even you will agree on that - and the more likely outcome is that Stevanovic will play only as good as everyone else on the team, rather than everyone else on the team playing as good as Stevanovic.

We have a few good pieces, but we're miles and miles from complete (or even passable). We're like a deformed, unbalanced bodybuilder who only works out three or four muscles in his entire body. It's not a competitive position, to put it mildly.

I clearly remember him not using Borman on the overlap twice last match, and turning back rather than using his team mates.. I think he's a good player, he just needs to learn that you aren't gonig to be given the space and time in this league. Oh and stay on your feet son..

Fort York Redcoat
04-19-2011, 12:43 PM
Winter also cautioned that it would take time. In this league, a team can flounder in the first half and still qualify for the playoffs with a strong finish to the season.


I look forward to pulling up this comment of yours on the day we mathematically get eliminated from the playoffs. We're front-end loaded on home games this year. That means points later in the year are going to be fewer and fewer and harder to get.

You know who will be a real threat? Sporting Kansas. They don't have a game at home until June 9, already have a road win, already have 4 points and they have two games in hand on us. THAT is a team that expect a "strong finish to the season." Not us. For us to succeed later in the year, we need to fill the huge gaps we have all over the place, from front to back. We need skill. We have very little of that.

Well as long as you're right in the end?:noidea: Myself I'd dread having to be right about something so bloody pessimistic and frustrating but to each his own.

brad
04-19-2011, 12:44 PM
^^Where as I don't think we will make the playoffs either, but I will bookmark this post and more than happily eat my words if we do...

Davenport
04-19-2011, 12:44 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/downsview-become-academy-home
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/laying-down-roots
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/doneil-henry
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/nicholas-lindsay
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/keith-makubuya
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/ashtone-morgan
http://www.torontofc.ca/player/matt-stinson
http://www.eyeweekly.com/city/sports/article/104114--toronto-fc-says-they-re-sorry
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2011/04/01/dobson_toronto_fc_derosario/
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/10/23/toronto_fc_tickets/


do you want me to keep going?
or would you like to invalidate:

- a promised price freeze
- 4 academy graduates
- a new million $ training facility
- the clubs public apology to fans and acknowledgment of failure
- the town hall meetings
- the dero trade
- a free home opener

as worthless, meaningless gestures by a club that's no better than they were five years ago?

All those things don't guarantee an improvement on the field, which is what it's all about.

This team is owned by a disfunctional organisation.
I applaud their efforts to try and improve but the squad is no stronger now than at the beginning and fan apathy is at an all time low. It's going to be hard to convince a lot of those supporters to return.

Don't forget MLSE owns the biggest ice hockey team in the world and they know more about hockey than soccer, but the Leafs are a joke and haven't won the Cup since 1967.

Fort York Redcoat
04-19-2011, 12:45 PM
^^That I get

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:45 PM
He does a lot of things well, and he also holds the ball for too long. This is not always because the rest of the team isn't showing for him. That's a common cop all to commonly used IMHO (albeit often true).

He will often make the wrong choice and try and take on 2 or 3 players instead of a clear option for support behind him.

I'm not disagreeing with you. LOL

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:47 PM
I clearly remember him not using Borman on the overlap twice last match, and turning back rather than using his team mates.. I think he's a good player, he just needs to learn that you aren't gonig to be given the space and time in this league. Oh and stay on your feet son..

So, what a minute, give him time?

Much like guys like Nani and Cristiano Ronaldo were with United?

Difference is at that level you have teammates who can support you and you have other avenues (cup matches, reserves, etc) to bring you along slowly.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:48 PM
All those things don't guarantee an improvement on the field, which is what it's all about.

This team is owned by a disfunctional organisation.
I applaud their efforts to try and improve but the squad is no stronger now than at the beginning and fan apathy is at an all time low. It's going to be hard to convince a lot of those supporters to return.

Don't forget MLSE owns the biggest ice hockey team in the world and they know more about hockey than soccer, but the Leafs are a joke and haven't won the Cup since 1967.

As much as I hate MLSE and am not a Leaf fan, MLSE hasn't owned the Leafs since 1967.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 12:51 PM
See you in the "TFC-Columbus post game rant thread."

This is one thing we can all believe in - unfortunately!

Well played sir.

Davenport
04-19-2011, 12:54 PM
As much as I hate MLSE and am not a Leaf fan, MLSE hasn't owned the Leafs since 1967.
They "run" them then....which is even worse !

Whoop
04-19-2011, 12:56 PM
They haven't run the Leafs since 1967 either.

trane
04-19-2011, 01:01 PM
I approve this post and this thread. This is how I feel as well.

Some people only see negatives, some people only see positives, some people see things the way they are.

Thank you. There is not much more I can add. It is that simple.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 01:04 PM
As much as I hate MLSE and am not a Leaf fan, MLSE hasn't owned the Leafs since 1967.

What MLSE is most guilty of is a lack of imagination. Sure, they make a load of money -- but if they (the Leafs) were much more successful they would make a load more money.

One of the biggest drawbacks of being owned by a pension fund is the the reliance the fund has on predictable revenues. They are not interested in winning cups -- they are interested in a 7% annualized return.

McBrace
04-19-2011, 01:09 PM
So, what a minute, give him time?

Much like guys like Nani and Cristiano Ronaldo were with United?

Difference is at that level you have teammates who can support you and you have other avenues (cup matches, reserves, etc) to bring you along slowly.


I meant he won't have the space and time on the pitch, because the defenders just run straight at you...

I think it's more of an ego thing, he hold on to the ball because he figures his teammate are shit. When he's run out of options , he goes down trying to draw a foul. This will change.(I hope)

I more concerned with his fitness. He can't seem to finish a game.

Jeffro
04-19-2011, 01:20 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 01:25 PM
What MLSE is most guilty of is a lack of imagination. Sure, they make a load of money -- but if they (the Leafs) were much more successful they would make a load more money.

One of the biggest drawbacks of being owned by a pension fund is the the reliance the fund has on predictable revenues. They are not interested in winning cups -- they are interested in a 7% annualized return.

MLSE is guilty of trying to exploit the fan base in Toronto, except that in the case of the Raptors, TFC, and the Marlies, the jig is up. If ticket prices are not scaled back to reasonable levels, the attendance for 3 of their 4 sports properties will continue to decrease.

MLSE has also demonstrated a willingness to invest singinificant financial recources in all of their franchises (justifiably so), although it can definitely be questioned as to whether or not the resources were used wisely.

Believe me, MLSE would love nothing more than to exceed current revenues with all of their clubs routinely qualifying for the post season.

trane
04-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Jeffro,

I am all for discussion, but this gets tiresome.

Jeffro
04-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Jeffro,

I am all for discussion, but this gets tiresome.


I totally agree, at least add something of value to the conversation...

Fort York Redcoat
04-19-2011, 01:37 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

QFFT

plus Quoted for Kool-Aid.:D

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 01:40 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

It wasn't always like this. It's gradually gotten worse because some supporters are fed up after years of fultility, and I can understand that. The organization has to be held accountable for the poor product on the pitch.

What I don't understand is the need to demean those who are willing to be patient. I think it is important to have realistic expectations at this point in particular, because the organization appears to finally be heading in the right direction.

It would be also be great if people can focus on the positive and negative aspects following a match; the tactical approach, individual player performances, etc. I don't understand the point in going on an anti MLSE rant directed at the previous management regime. What's done is done, and we are entering a new era of football that will hopefully yield positive results.

I don't like the fact that TFC is starting over, but for all intent purposes, I am judging this club like an expansion team, ticket prices not withstanding.

Batman
04-19-2011, 01:47 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Well said!
:scarf:

Whoop
04-19-2011, 01:49 PM
It wasn't always like this. It's gradually gotten worse because some supporters are fed up after years of fultility, and I can understand that. The organization has to be held accountable for the poor product on the pitch.

What I don't understand is the need to demean those who are willing to be patient. I think it is important to have realistic expectations at this point in particular, because the organization appears to finally be heading in the right direction.

It would be also be great if people can focus on the positive and negative aspects following a match; the tactical approach, individual player performances, etc. I don't understand the point in going on an anti MLSE rant directed at the previous management regime. What's done is done, and we are entering a new era of football that will hopefully yield positive results.

I don't like the fact that TFC is starting over, but for all intent purposes, I am judging this club like an expansion team, ticket prices not withstanding.

It's shitty but I mean what else can you do other than be patient?

Protest? Storm the field? Boo?

I'm willing to ride it out a bit. Been there with hockey in the past and going through it right now.

Beach_Red
04-19-2011, 01:51 PM
All those things don't guarantee an improvement on the field, which is what it's all about.

This team is owned by a disfunctional organisation.
I applaud their efforts to try and improve but the squad is no stronger now than at the beginning and fan apathy is at an all time low. It's going to be hard to convince a lot of those supporters to return.

Don't forget MLSE owns the biggest ice hockey team in the world and they know more about hockey than soccer, but the Leafs are a joke and haven't won the Cup since 1967.

There are no guarantees. There are a lot of other teams in the league also trying to win.

And this is a single-entity, salary capped league. You can't simply outspend the other teams. Now, I've been as critical of MLSE as anyone else, but for specific reasons. Yes, of course, they want a 7% return (though they've settled for 5%, haven't they?), that alone doesn't mean they can't win championships.

When it comes to TFC, MLSE made some very poor decisions and took far too long to correct them. But they were specific decisions. They put in field turf (oh, sure, maybe it was the city or the CNE or someone else, whatever, when they'd made enough money and there was enough pressure grass was put in), they hired inexperienced people - and not even very many of them, did they hire any scouts? There wasn't even an assistant GM for years - they hired people on short-term contracts which limited the number of people who were willing to take the jobs, they didn't spend for a DP for years, and so on.

So, there are no guarantees, but they do now seem to be running the team in such a way that it can compete for a championship in a salary-capped league.

That wasn't true for the first four years.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2011, 01:52 PM
It's shitty but I mean what else can you do other than be patient?

Protest? Storm the field? Boo?

I'm willing to ride it out a bit. Been there with hockey in the past and going through it right now.

Exactly. Besides, compared to enduring the Harold Ballard years as a Leaf fan in the 80's, this is child's play. :D

Whoop
04-19-2011, 01:54 PM
No... I'm talking about my real life. Not the Leafs. LOL

CoachGT
04-19-2011, 01:56 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Absolutely!!!!!

I still believe.....

Suds
04-19-2011, 01:57 PM
It's shitty but I mean what else can you do other than be patient?

Protest? Storm the field? Boo?

I'm willing to ride it out a bit. Been there with hockey in the past and going through it right now.

Storming the field at the end of the first year is one of my best memories to date of being a TFC fan! :scarf:

ensco
04-19-2011, 01:58 PM
There is a specific consequence to saying "I believe" prematurely.

Winter strikes me as very comfortable, and certain of himself to a degree that seems extreme given his resume.

Is it in our interest for him to be that comfortable? The likelihood of a couple of lost years while he turns the whole team over and implements his "system", is not small. As an SSH, I'm not that interested in underwriting that, in a league where others seem able to achieve results and build simultaneously.

Not saying I don't believe...speaking for myself, I am really impressed by Mariner, and liked the Dero trade. But I just have no idea how you know that everything is fine with such certainty, or why you would want to declare yourself satisfied so definitively, so quickly.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Storming the field at the end of the first year is one of my best memories to date of being a TFC fan! :scarf:
I know...

I meant in protest. LOL

Walnut
04-19-2011, 02:02 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Well said -- there are lots of positives to be taken from last match. The sunset was stunning, that guy won 12 pizzas, it didn't rain, we didn't lose 7-0, and it was only moderately freezing.

It is this kind of buoyant spirit that will help lift the team up. Defeatist elements are the enemy that is holding the team back!

__wowza
04-19-2011, 02:02 PM
All those things don't guarantee an improvement on the field, which is what it's all about.

This team is owned by a disfunctional organisation.
I applaud their efforts to try and improve but the squad is no stronger now than at the beginning and fan apathy is at an all time low. It's going to be hard to convince a lot of those supporters to return.

Don't forget MLSE owns the biggest ice hockey team in the world and they know more about hockey than soccer, but the Leafs are a joke and haven't won the Cup since 1967.

now your specifying improvement on the field, and that i agree with you on. there's a difference though, in our first year, i didn't see us improving at all. i didn't look at the team and say "this organization has a plan! we're going places!" i didn't do that last year, i didn't do it the year before that or the one before that.

this year they've made me believe that we have a plan.
all we can do is be patient.

i don't expect an academy to pay off immediately, nor do i expect the 5 (i'd incorrectly quoted as 4) academy grads to make the starting XI right away. look at it this way, we have 4 (lindsay's injured) potential starters against edmonton, who're playing in the reserve league, that means we can potentially rest some of our first teamers for league action.. and we're barely making a dent in the salary cap because they're home grown.

Beach_Red
04-19-2011, 02:10 PM
There is a specific consequence to saying "I believe" prematurely.

Winter strikes me as very comfortable, and certain of himself to a degree that seems extreme given his resume.

Is it in our interest for him to be that comfortable? The likelihood of a couple of lost years while he turns the whole team over and implements his "system", is not small. As an SSH, I'm not that interested in underwriting that, in a league where others seem able to achieve results and build simultaneously.

Not saying I don't believe...speaking for myself, I am really impressed by Mariner, and liked the Dero trade. But I just have no idea how you know that everything is fine with such certainty, or why you would want to declare yourself satisfied so definitively, so quickly.


Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 02:11 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

This is one of the better things that have come out of this -- we have a commitment for a longer term plan.

Oldtimer
04-19-2011, 02:12 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

People come on here for various reasons, not always related to support. Most are fans of the sport in some way.

Our board is different from the NEE's one, who made a decision last year to close their board to non-members.

It's really either-or. If we allow all and sundry on, then we can't complain if they are negative. The board has some basic rules, but you don't have to be positive, or even a supporter to be on here.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 02:20 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

There is some truth to that.

You see guys trying to save their jobs "say screw the future" with the attitude of a) "if I'm gone, it will be the new guy's problem" or b) "if I stay, I'll deal with it later."

Same happens with players in the last year of their contract trying to get a new contract. Hence the term "he only plays well when he's playing for a contract."

flatpicker
04-19-2011, 02:21 PM
This thread made me think of this song.
Perhaps it should be added to our repertoire.

V1VczvVrD_I

I used to be on an endless run
Believed in miracles 'cuz I'm one
I've been blessed with the power to survive
After all these years I'm still alive

Oh I believe in miracles
I believe in a better world for me and you
Oh Oh I believe in miracles
I believe in a better world for me and you

:drinking:

Shep
04-19-2011, 02:28 PM
It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Yeah I learned shortly after I joined the boards that it's in my best interest not to spend too much time in the general forums... they reek of internet drama. Ppl just getting caught up in circular arguments. It's almost like a youtube comment page. So I just check in once in a while for jokes.

The RPB section is where it's at. A LOT less whingy pessimism.

trane
04-19-2011, 02:33 PM
Well said -- there are lots of positives to be taken from last match. The sunset was stunning, that guy won 12 pizzas, it didn't rain, we didn't lose 7-0, and it was only moderately freezing.

It is this kind of buoyant spirit that will help lift the team up. Defeatist elements are the enemy that is holding the team back!


This is like my first "positive" thread, in a long, long time. I even resnet being called positive, but we have sucked, we have been going nowere, now we are trying to turn the ship. I am happy that at least the organization recognized the need for real and deep change, it is a start.

I have been called negative, a non-supproter, ect. ect, but I always just called it as I saw it, now I see that we are trying to built a great team, I am happy about that.

Right now I am believing the message.

Waggy
04-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Wow this thread turned depressing quick. I think I'm done with these boards for a while. To pull a Sports Guy and reference Shawshank- Hope is a beautiful thing, and hope never dies. If your hope is dead then I don't know why you're on this board, or watching Toronto FC games. It's not like this is a lifetime commitment, this is a new team in a new league. Don't like it? Go back to supporting your old team. Coming on here and whining isn't doing anything. Think the team is fucked till MLSE sells? Don't follow the team till MLSE sells! Think the team is fucked until Winter gets fired or makes x change? DONT FOLLOW THE TEAM UNTIL WINTER DOES IT! Following a sports team is supposed to be fun, whether the team is winning or losing. If it's not fun, no-ones putting a gun to your head. No-one is making you follow the team, or like it, or be positive or anything. But you don't have to be a dick and bother those of us who still ENJOY following this team. Who LIKE watching soccer. Who want to have intelligent conversations about the direction of the club and the league. Maybe talk tactics, maybe talk personelle, maybe talk potential trades or lineups. This board has turned into a place populated by 70-80% of posters who are essentially trolling the other 20%. And if you think we 20% are crazy then that's fine. We probably are. But we're happy as we are, just leave us be. Jesus.

/end rant


edit: and to clarify, there is a difference between criticism and being negative. Criticsm is of course part of being a sports fan. But constant misery, whining and sky is falling claims aren't. It's one thing to be concerned, or worried. It's another to basically say "I am not happy, and won't be happy until this team becomes a powerhouse. And until that day happens everyone else will hear about my pissed offness EVERY DAY!"

Walnut
04-19-2011, 03:08 PM
Criticsm is of course part of being a sports fan. But constant misery, whining and sky is falling claims aren't.

As a lifelong West Ham fan, I can assure you that constant misery is indeed part of being a supporter of that club.

AmherstNY_TFC
04-19-2011, 03:09 PM
TFC in Year Five is sort of like having a credit card that keeps raising the credit limit: eventually, the bill comes due.

We are all angry that we have spent the last four years plowing our hearts, our souls, our time, and our hard-earned money into a club that has been so poorly run for the last four years. I think we all agree that there was no over-arching plan for continued success. Everything was done with an eye towards short-term success. Whenever things went south (and they did most of the time) management gave us a short-term fix: cashier the coach, bring in a Canadian star player, bring in a player via trade, etc.

How many of our Super Draft picks are in the first-team squad, let alone the starting 11? I think Frei is the only one. Management has whiffed on trades. Other than DeRo, how many players has TFC traded for that provided a lasting contribution? They have signed two Designated Players. One was a flop (Mista), and one hasn't lived up to expectations (JDG).

When those areas are #FAIL, you're left with signing "street" free agents, and most of those guys aren't attached to any club is for a reason. The cupboard is bare after four years of whiffing on 90% of the personnel decisions. We are, in effect, the third expansion team.

We're all feeling used and abused, and we feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. But, we can't fool ourselves that there is some "quick fix" out there that is going to have this team playing an up-tempo attacking system and winning matches on a consistent basis. "quick fix" solutions got us into this mess. The is no Designated Player that is going to come in and change this team's fortunes overnight.

At the very least, the new management team seems to have identified the problems, and is always looking to improve the club. Look at the signing of Eckersley. It is a statement that the club is not satisfied with its current roster, and wants to add a player that can potentially make it better. While the squad had to be blown up, not every player can be shown the door.

I'm willing to hang in there because I, too, believe that there is a plan, and that the management team is in place to make that plan a reality. They are willing to make a bold trade to get the team in the right direction. We tough it out because we hope that we'll be rewarded for our suffering. Building a team from scratch does not happen overnight. There will be bumps in the road (like last Saturday), but I am not giving up my seat. I am not giving up my support, and will continue to cheer the boys on regardless.

trane
04-19-2011, 03:11 PM
^ I gave up my seat last year, before they brought in the new guys.

Jeffro
04-19-2011, 03:12 PM
People come on here for various reasons, not always related to support.

True, a lot of people are just here to troll, fan the flames and argue, and while we cater to their 'free speech' we'll continue to lose the efforts and opinions of our valued members.

I don't object to having opposing points of view and discussion about them. There are many people on this board who I disagree with on many issues. I don't begrudge them their opinions or their place here to discuss them. I begrudge the unneccesary flame ware in every thread, and in particular, this thread, that was started from a perspective of rationality. Trane says he sees some positives for the future and suddenly he's a kool-aid drinker who thinks we're going to win the cup this year.

trane
04-19-2011, 03:14 PM
^ I agree Jeffro at some point free discusion kills true discourse.

tfcleeds
04-19-2011, 03:15 PM
In response to Amherst's post:

Agreed. As much as it's painful to say so, we really have to look at this as being Year 1 all over again. That is how much having Mo around for 4 years hindered the progress of this club. There will be growing pains under Winter/Mariner, but I would like to believe that the next 4 years will be more fruitful than the first 4. Only time will tell.

sashavukelich
04-19-2011, 03:29 PM
^ I gave up my seat last year, before they brought in the new guys.

moi aussi, i'm on the list back for it now. i miss it! lol so i bought a partial package

trane
04-19-2011, 03:41 PM
^ I am going to get back on the list, for some prawnies I think, and just get as many tickets as possible of people.

Walnut
04-19-2011, 03:52 PM
^ I am going to get back on the list, for some prawnies I think, and just get as many tickets as possible of people.

Should be no problem getting seats by renewal time.

jazzy
04-19-2011, 07:18 PM
This is like my first "positive" thread, in a long, long time. I even resnet being called positive, but we have sucked, we have been going nowere, now we are trying to turn the ship. I am happy that at least the organization recognized the need for real and deep change, it is a start.

I have been called negative, a non-supproter, ect. ect, but I always just called it as I saw it, now I see that we are trying to built a great team, I am happy about that.

Right now I am believing the message.

it's too easy finding shit in the world, sometimes mindless hope is essential,...tempered of course, but a relief all the same,.......thats why I enjoy a soccer excursion,....and everything that ensuses......... thread is a nice change,.....

trane
04-20-2011, 10:30 AM
^ tempered is a good word. I have a temepred believe that we can turn this around this year.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2011, 10:50 AM
I love this thread. First time I've ever rated one.Thanks trane.

Wull
04-20-2011, 10:52 AM
I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass off in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2011, 10:55 AM
I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass of in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

...with green tape over my mouth:D

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 11:11 AM
I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass off in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?

Pachuco
04-20-2011, 11:16 AM
You can always switch to Whitecaps no one is holding the gun on your head to follow TFC.

So basically, if you don't think TFC is thre greatest team to ever play in the history of the world you should just change and support another team. :rolleyes:

The guy was calling it as he sees it.

Pachuco
04-20-2011, 11:21 AM
Well I guess I'm nuts.

For the first time in 5 years I'm optimistic.

We have a coach that is trying to implement a brand new style...from the academy right on up.

We have a coach that doesn't take shut from his players and wants a team above all else.

Gone are the days of hoofing the ball up field for no reason.

Growing pains are to expected imo.

It's funny that people can predict doom and gloom after 5-6 games. Kreskins everywhere. Lol

Only time will tell. What should happen in the meantime?

Fire winter?
Pine for deros return?
Continue to whine about opposing players who gloat when they score?

Fuck that.
This is the first time since season 1 where I think grinning and bearing it is required.

Just my take. We will get better.

The same way you are predicting the team will get better, is the same way people are predicting it won't. Not sure what confuses you so much there. You are contradicting yourself. If you believe, it's because you like what you see, if you don't, it's because you don't like what you see.

Me, I'm in wait and see mode. I don't see a reason to predict either way at this point. But I see no problem with other people going on something they see. After all, it took me 2 games to get on the fire Preki bandwagon.

Wull
04-20-2011, 11:34 AM
Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?

Mo has baggage among certain sections of fans from years before he got here

Beach_Red
04-20-2011, 11:38 AM
Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?


But for some of us it isn't about personalities. Like I said earlier in this thread, simply the difference between a guy on a three year contract as opposed to a guy on a series of one year-with-option contracts is a big deal.

All those players moving in and out of TFC for three years was clearly the result of a guy on a short leash trying to save his job every day. Then, when things were supposed to be different, when the GM and the coach were finally given multi-year contracts they fired them in the first year.

This is why MLSE drive me crazy. They're business is running sports teams and they make these kinds of decisions about contracts and personel that pretty much guarantee the results they get. It would have taken an incredibly experienced guy with a lot of past success to ride out an expansion team on a series of one year contracts - but that guy would have been a lot more expensive, if they could have found one to take the job.

So now they have a GM and a coach on proper deals who don't have to spend any time begging their boss for grass or trying to sell players to pay for a DP and they can finally settle in and build a team.

It may not work, but there's almost nothing to compare with the way the team was structured for the first three years.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 11:42 AM
Mo has baggage among certain sections of fans from years before he got here

I know, but if you accused a single Mo detractor of basing their prejudice on the fact that they consider him a Judas, they would say...

"No, thats not it, he's clearly useless and he's making awful mistakes that are unacceptable in any football league. He's a bonehead, he signs players like Andy Welsh and talks bullshit. Its got nothing to do with Celtic"

Any of these guys are calling for patience and time right now, are just exposing that they stuck the knife to Mo before he even signed Jimmy Brennan, based on their old world loyalties.

(Trane, I know you were never a Celtic/Rangers fan)

trane
04-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?

hahahahhhah. Well I never called him a dirty fuckhead, and that he sould be dropped in Lake Ontario untill season two. I was critical of the 3-5-2, because we simply did not have the defenders to play it, and do not see it as a viable system. However, I would like to see the current system of play impelemnted, and I hope that he is able to get it done. Believe me, if July is here, and it looks like we are going nowere fast, then it may all look different to me. As I say I try to call them as I see it. This is how I am seeing it at this time.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 11:54 AM
So now they have a GM and a coach on proper deals who don't have to spend any time begging their boss for grass or trying to sell players to pay for a DP and they can finally settle in and build a team.


Mo had to deal with bad attitude players who dont accept that theyve been drafted, canadian quotas, absurd scheduling, call-up absences and injuries induced by the player repelling fieldturf.

What you are saying is that because Winter doesnt have any of these excuses, he should be given more leeway, time and respect?

Whoop
04-20-2011, 11:58 AM
Mo was also a colossal failure in New York and people were warned about him before he even got here about his ineptness and personality that had nothing to do with Celtic vs. Rangers.

ensco
04-20-2011, 12:05 PM
Mo had a remarkable string of successes in year one, and had, rightly imho, a lot of support around here. There were always haters, but there were lots of "in Mo we trust" threads in those days.

Edu, Dichio, Wynne, O'Brien, they all worked out. He dealt with the Casey, Mulrooney and Nagamura fiascos very nicely. He had a problem with Braz and Reda and dealt with it fast. I still think the team in June 2007 is the best one we had. It was injuries that stopped that team.

The problem for him started with the Carver hire, and never really stopped after that.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 12:05 PM
Mo was also a colossal failure in New York and people were warned about him before he even got here about his ineptness and personality that had nothing to do with Celtic vs. Rangers.

That's true, but he was only given 12 games.

His record was 2-3-7

We are 1-2-3 after 6 games

Is that statistic relevant?

Whoop
04-20-2011, 12:07 PM
That's true, but he was only given 12 games.

His record was 2-3-7

We are 1-2-3 after 6 games

Is that statistic relevant?

It had more to do with than just the record.
I think he was found to be a snake even then...

Beach_Red
04-20-2011, 12:08 PM
Mo had to deal with bad attitude players who dont accept that theyve been drafted, canadian quotas, absurd scheduling, call-up absences and injuries induced by the player repelling fieldturf.

What you are saying is that because Winter doesnt have any of these excuses, he should be given more leeway, time and respect?


No, I'm not saying that. It's going to happen, but it's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that Winter should be judged based on his own situation. No matter who got the job now they'd still have some restrictions to deal with - unhappy players, players already under contract and a salary cap.

Whether people were willing to look at the actual situation of the FO of the team for the first three years or not is irrelevant now. We can look at the way it's structured now. So, I think with all the leeway and patience being given to Winter and Mariner the the team still has to win more games than it did last year.

And Whoopee, it's almost funny bringing up Mo's half a season as head coach in New York in a discussion about patience. Certainly no one's going to call Winter colassal failure if he starts the season 2-3-7 - and he has Mariner helping him out.

Whoop
04-20-2011, 12:08 PM
I think the best team TFC had was the one in the summer of 2009 before the signing of JDG.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 12:10 PM
I still think the team in June 2007 is the best one we had. It was injuries that stopped that team.

It was the turf, it was always the turf, but you know that.


The problem for him started with the Carver hire, and never really stopped after that.

I agree, I honestly think if he'd kept coaching and hadnt gone upstairs, we'd have had a playoff season by now.

Beach_Red
04-20-2011, 12:11 PM
It had more to do with than just the record.
I think he was found to be a snake even then...

Wait, are we talking about coaching or contract negotiations? Lucky for Winter he has Mariner.

Waggy
04-20-2011, 12:12 PM
2 people are driving from Pearson to Oshawa on the 401. Both are going 85 because they've never driven in Canada before and are used to left side driving. Neither is using the express lane, again due to unfamiliarity. One is sitting hunched forward, gripping the steering wheel so tight his knuckles are going white, whipping his head around looking mirror to mirror, swearing constantly, changing lanes every 2 or 3 minutes. The other is sitting back, has 1 hand on the wheel and is trying to learn the radio stations. He is taking in the surroundings and reading the road signs. Both are on the same highway going the same speed, who do you feel more comfortable driving with? Who do trust more to not get lost before reaching the final destination? I think you can prob figure out who is Mo in the analogy. Numbers don't always tell the story. Sometimes intangibles do. And if they could be quantified or described numerically then they wouldn't be intangible.


edit: Oh, and I forgot the 1 hand on the wheel guy also has a former taxi driver from Toronto riding shotgun to help him navigate

Beach_Red
04-20-2011, 12:12 PM
It was the turf, it was always the turf, but you know that.



I agree, I honestly think if he'd kept coaching and hadnt gone upstairs, we'd have had a playoff season by now.


You may be right. It would certainly have helped to bring in a GM with some management experience or a team VP or even a president.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 12:18 PM
2 people are driving from Pearson to Oshawa on the 401. Both are going 85 because they've never driven in Canada before and are used to left side driving. Neither is using the express lane, again due to unfamiliarity. One is sitting hunched forward, gripping the steering wheel so tight his knuckles are going white, whipping his head around looking mirror to mirror, swearing constantly, changing lanes every 2 or 3 minutes. The other is sitting back, has 1 hand on the wheel and is trying to learn the radio stations. He is taking in the surroundings and reading the road signs. Both are on the same highway going the same speed, who do you feel more comfortable driving with? Who do trust more to not get lost before reaching the final destination? I think you can prob figure out who is Mo in the analogy. Numbers don't always tell the story. Sometimes intangibles do. And if they could be quantified or described numerically then they wouldn't be intangible.

I want the guy who is determined not to crash his car on a foreign highway.

I dont want the guy who believes that the highway is inferior and if he just drives the way he does back home, eventually the laws will change to accomodate him.

scooterTFC
04-20-2011, 12:22 PM
Strategy and execution are two different things.

Strategy
Conceptually I like the strategic vision that the club has articulated since Winter's arrival - I'll paraphrase my understanding of it as, 'defining a specific style of play and a committment to developing our own players through a well funded professionally run youth academy'.

Execution
None of us know know how successful the club will be at implementing this strategic vision. Its a long term strategy so judging as success or failure after few games isn't possible. I think this strategic vision had better be bigger than Winter. It needs to be something that the MLSE suits are buying into at a higher level. Hiring Winter and his success or failure as the coach of the first team is merly a component of the implmentation of strategy.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 12:23 PM
The Winter in your analogy is going to get frustrated with the crappy toronto radio stations, and crash his car while fiddling with the radio.

He also needs a translator for the road signs, and to speed the fuck up.

I dont want anyone who does 85 on the 401 in any circumstances. (I actually think Mo was trying to do 140 while talking on his cellphone when he got booked)

Oldtimer
04-20-2011, 12:39 PM
(I actually think Mo was trying to do 140 while talking on his cellphone when he got booked)

:lol:

Mo would have been an OK coach in MLS... in 2006 when they were looking.
The problem is that MLS keeps improving and you have to run to catch up.
It always seems that this team is 2 years behind where we need to be.

That 2009 team would have gone far in the playoffs if it had been 2007.

ManUtd4ever
04-20-2011, 12:45 PM
I think the best team TFC had was the one in the summer of 2009 before the signing of JDG.

On paper, yes, but the most attractive football I watched at BMO Field for any sustained period of time was probably early in the 2008 season, after the acquisitions of Guevara, Robert, and Ricketts. If I recall correctly, that team started the season with 2 losses but after those signings, they had a good run and were something like 6-4-3 a couple of months into the season before injuries and national team call ups derailed the season.

Whoop
04-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Good call.

Though I really enjoyed the first half against Cruz Azul last year at BMO.

Roogsy
04-20-2011, 12:53 PM
2 people are driving from Pearson to Oshawa on the 401. Both are going 85 because they've never driven in Canada before and are used to left side driving. Neither is using the express lane, again due to unfamiliarity. One is sitting hunched forward, gripping the steering wheel so tight his knuckles are going white, whipping his head around looking mirror to mirror, swearing constantly, changing lanes every 2 or 3 minutes. The other is sitting back, has 1 hand on the wheel and is trying to learn the radio stations. He is taking in the surroundings and reading the road signs. Both are on the same highway going the same speed, who do you feel more comfortable driving with? Who do trust more to not get lost before reaching the final destination? I think you can prob figure out who is Mo in the analogy. Numbers don't always tell the story. Sometimes intangibles do. And if they could be quantified or described numerically then they wouldn't be intangible.


edit: Oh, and I forgot the 1 hand on the wheel guy also has a former taxi driver from Toronto riding shotgun to help him navigate


What were you smoking when you wrote this?

Whoop
04-20-2011, 01:02 PM
It is 4/20. LOL

Waggy
04-20-2011, 01:06 PM
What were you smoking when you wrote this?

Someone clearly forgot what day it is today :lol: :stogey:


It made sense in my head. My point is basically there's less of a panicked feel around the team in the past 3 months. Less urgency. Could be related to the series of 1 year deals that Mo was on like someone referenced. Could just be better management.


And 145 on his cell phone? Maybe in year 2. By 3 he was lost, doing 20km with the blinkers on while other drivers yelled and threw things at him.

Roogsy
04-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Someone clearly forgot what day it is today :lol: :stogey:




DAMN! Completely forgot....gotta make some calls. ;)

Whoop
04-20-2011, 01:09 PM
Just reading Bill Walsh's book (good book).

In it he was talking about calling plays in the NFL and how he would script things because one time, as a young coach, he got caught "flying by the seat of his pants".

I think that's where Mo failed ultimately. Mo seemed to be more of a reacting guy.

I mean he wanted to get DeRo anyway possible, not thinking of the consequences of his actions down the road. Same with JDG. He brings him in not realizing the consequences of doing so, same with Mista.

He was always flying by the seat of his pants and you can't.

When my GM suggests a trade we talk about how it will impact the team, now and in the future - we can win it now but how will it affect the future? Is there a plan for the future if we make this deal? Is it worth the risk if we don't win?

Some guys will say screw the future, we gotta win now. Others will say, how are you going to get out of that hole in the future if we don't win? Other will say, screw the future and if we don't win, let the new guy worry about it.

Mo was a guy trying to save his job and he was doing whatever he could towards the end to keep his job. Remember in 2009 he said if the team didn't make the playoffs in 2010 he didn't expect to be around in 2011.

So in the end... he wasn't looking at 2011 when he was making decisions and as a result, the new guy was going to be fucked or severely hampered.

__wowza
04-20-2011, 01:13 PM
Someone clearly forgot what day it is today :lol: :stogey:



HOLY SHIT ITS 420!!
HOW DID I NOT REMEMBER THAT?

menefreghista
04-20-2011, 01:14 PM
It made sense in my head. My point is basically there's less of a panicked feel around the team in the past 3 months. Less urgency. Could be related to the series of 1 year deals that Mo was on like someone referenced. Could just be better management.

I think you might be confusing general fan apathy with a lack of panic.

__wowza
04-20-2011, 01:15 PM
http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/101/781/original/Y0UJC.png?1298581940

OH YEAH IT'S BECAUSE I SMOKE POT.

trane
04-20-2011, 02:56 PM
That's true, but he was only given 12 games.

His record was 2-3-7

We are 1-2-3 after 6 games

Is that statistic relevant?

Just to get the record straight, other then my issue with the 3-5-2 I was not that harsh on Mo in year one. He made some moves that had real promise, even up to the midle of the second seson. But somewere in there is realy struck me that he realy had not direction and not plan. Then I did turn against the entire FO, including Mo.

ExiledRed
04-20-2011, 03:05 PM
Mo screwed it up with the Barrett trade. I figure he was doing the best he could with the resources he had, and the obstacles that werent fully cleared, like fieldturf, cnadian quota etc.....

But...... McBride for that useless, gamekilling, cap gouging, never was?

That was when I lost faith in Mo.

I lost faith in Carver/Cummins when they started the useless, gamekilling, cap gouging, never was over a healthy Dichio.

trane
04-20-2011, 03:09 PM
^ I think me and you lost it with Mo around the same time, and around simillar issues, I may have deen discontent a little earlier, but not much. [my discontent may have been earlier due to the constatn defensive lapses-not that that has improved by much].

trane
04-20-2011, 03:10 PM
^ OH, and also the entire thing about MLSE selling the atmposphere and seemed not to give to shits about the product on the field, got me going.

ensco
04-20-2011, 03:44 PM
I would donate real money to charity, if I could sit with Mo in a bar for a couple of hours and hear his version of the story of what happened here.

Oldtimer
04-20-2011, 03:50 PM
I would donate real money to charity, if I could sit with Mo in a bar for a couple of hours and hear his version of the story of what happened here.

Would you get the truth from that snake, however? (Even if you plied him with a few scotches).

Waggy
04-20-2011, 03:55 PM
I think you might be confusing general fan apathy with a lack of panic.

I mean from the front office. You aren't hearing a lot of comments putting pressure on the team- you aren't seeing moves made for the sake of being made. You aren't seeing the team trying out a new formation every game. The fans... well I'm finding the fans now worse then they were

ensco
04-20-2011, 07:12 PM
Would you get the truth from that snake, however? (Even if you plied him with a few scotches).

You're not getting into the spirit of the idea!

We TFC SSHs already donate money for dubious entertainment purposes, how would this be different? :D

(also, seriously, nobody's ever as good or as bad as you think - I genuinely believe Mo screwed up, but I still think he's sorta kinda interesting)

Yohan
04-20-2011, 07:55 PM
Mo screwed it up with the Barrett trade. I figure he was doing the best he could with the resources he had, and the obstacles that werent fully cleared, like fieldturf, cnadian quota etc.....

But...... McBride for that useless, gamekilling, cap gouging, never was?

That was when I lost faith in Mo.


Mo traded Brian McBride for Chad Barrett and Stefan Frei and allocation money

it's all how you look at this trade, I suppose

Auzzy
04-20-2011, 08:19 PM
McBride never wanted to come here, so if Mo got Frei plus allo plus Barrett for his rights, that wasn't such a bad deal.

However, mortgaging the future by agreeing to crazy guaranteed future increases in Barrett's contract (i.e., for this year), that was nuts. Not sure if it could have been avoided -- but nuts nonetheless.

rocker
04-20-2011, 08:40 PM
The McBride deal was actually quite even if you just compare McBride and Barrett.

16 goals, 8 assists, by Barrett.
18 goals, 7 assists, by McBride.

McBride got those numbers in 6 fewer games, so the percentages are better for him. But not by a whole lot.

I call it basically even when you consider the other things TFC got out of it beyond Barrett.

ag futbol
04-20-2011, 08:53 PM
I'm sure we'd all agree, looking at Mo Johnston moves in isolation is pointless. A broken clock is still right twice a day, and Johnston just threw shit at the wall and some stuff inevitably stuck.

So without complementing Mo in any way: I thought the deal worked out ok, considering for all intensive purposes it was basically TFC sticking up Chicago due to retarded MLS rules.

No argument with Frei and allocation money. Barrett didn't produce as much as expected and we were rumored to have raised his salary when he came here. That contract was not favorable considering his production. Would have been better if he came on the same contract he had or if he was stuck on a raise: passed completely.