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View Full Version : TFC's problems are tactical -- an observation about MLS



jloome
04-17-2011, 02:36 PM
Mod: Please don't move this into the post-game forum. It's a perspective based on several games, not just the latest.


TFC's "slow start" issue is not really a slow start issue -- it's a consequence of a bad tactical choice: to play "build from the back" early in the game in MLS.

MLS is a direct league, where quick pressure on the ball and athleticism and valued above technique and movement. In the early portion of a game, when an opponent's energy is highest, our "build from the back" is intensely vulnerable to full-field pressure, because our opponent is more interested in creating an error than maintaining team shape.

It would make more sense for us to play direct until the initial burst of energy that typifies the start of a game is done and the game has settled down somewhat. After about 20-30 minutes, we switch to the controlled possession game and force them to chase.

The same rule would apply in the second half.

This actually suits us better than simply playing possession as we have two highly technically skilled wingers who are able to bring down a ball in direct play and take a defender on one-one-one, as opposed to just being a component of the short-build-up play that's integral to "total" football.

In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.

Jack
04-17-2011, 02:54 PM
That's a pretty reasonable assessment.

rocker
04-17-2011, 02:54 PM
interesting observation

Alonso
04-17-2011, 03:18 PM
Mod: Please don't move this into the post-game forum. It's a perspective based on several games, not just the latest.


TFC's "slow start" issue is not really a slow start issue -- it's a consequence of a bad tactical choice: to play "build from the back" early in the game in MLS.

MLS is a direct league, where quick pressure on the ball and athleticism and valued above technique and movement. In the early portion of a game, when an opponent's energy is highest, our "build from the back" is intensely vulnerable to full-field pressure, because our opponent is more interested in creating an error than maintaining team shape.

It would make more sense for us to play direct until the initial burst of energy that typifies the start of a game is done and the game has settled down somewhat. After about 20-30 minutes, we switch to the controlled possession game and force them to chase.

The same rule would apply in the second half.

This actually suits us better than simply playing possession as we have two highly technically skilled wingers who are able to bring down a ball in direct play and take a defender on one-one-one, as opposed to just being a component of the short-build-up play that's integral to "total" football.

In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.


Beautifully thought out, and I have the feeling that you're probably right and even if not, making sure were steady before we go to a possession game can't hurt at this point.

SOMEONE email this to Winter!:scarf:

Alonso
04-17-2011, 03:20 PM
Seriously, anyone got Winters email!!!!

tiberius
04-17-2011, 03:21 PM
In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.

I think you are bang on the money - there is no point in tearing up Winter or the individual players at this point (other than to vent frustration :D) This will be a learning year for everyone. Tactical adjustments coupled with some player changes over the course of the year, should improve the product on the field for 2012!

brad
04-17-2011, 03:30 PM
I think that's a pretty accurate assessment.

In theory, the possession game from the start should be the right way to go. Maintain possession while the opponent chases you all over the pitch and wears themselves down.

In practice, we aren't good enough to maintain posession that way.

69Chevy396
04-17-2011, 03:44 PM
This makes a lot of sense, except one wonders how things would be different if JGD and Santos were playing the way everybody here says they can, and if DeRo wasn't moved so quickly. Essentially, TFC is playing as well as they can given the talent on the team. If they return to the long ball tactic, they will still lose, and look ugly in doing it. We just need better players, and the ones we have, need to play harder. Winter probably expected a lot more from JDG and is quietly wondering what the hell went wrong with this guy....he really has done nothing for this team, the short sweet passes are a fucking joke when after he makes the pass, he stops moving, and disappears from the play all together....Santos is either hurt or stoned, or both.....these two were supposed to lead the team, and they simply haven't....When Gordon returns Santos should sit....and, when the team finally finds a replacement for Guevera, get rid of JDG.

prizby
04-17-2011, 03:53 PM
i'm not worried...Alex Ferguson in his first season with United had 4 points after 8 games...gonna take some time

LucaGol
04-17-2011, 03:57 PM
You don't necessarily have to play "direct" to beat high pressure defense.

To counteract high-pressure defense we must
- spread out (we must play balls into spaces vacated by pressuring defenders), the opposition want to compress the field, we must defend against this by spacing vertically and horizontally
- play long and diagonal balls (pretty sure we suck at this considering we can't even make short passes)
- move the ball quickly (relates to technical ability and energy, two things which we seemingly have none of)
- combination play (TFC have never done this since we don't move off the ball, lazy, no soccer IQ, I dunno?)
- play with a long dribble (draw defenders out of position, exploit these gaps)
- for goodness sakes have our midfielders show for the ball within reasonable distances

That's all I can think of for now.


It is imperative Winter drills these tactics home in practice and we improve on them. Otherwise we are doomed to failure under his system.

People are upset at Charlie Davies dancing in front of the supporters ... , I'd be more upset that teams are using high pressure defense against us, basically insulting our technical ability right from the opening whistle. (Not that they're wrong, but its just funny they know this tactic will work and that we are currently doing nothing to punish them.)

LucaGol
04-17-2011, 04:12 PM
The longer you hold the ball at the back, and the slower you move, the more time you're giving the team that's applying the high pressure defense to build the mouse trap that will eventually lead you to turn the ball over.

The defending team is not just running into random places on the field, they're forcing the team with the ball into certain areas and heaping pressure on them.

69Chevy396
04-17-2011, 04:13 PM
Scary thought TFC can do none of these things well, after 5 years this is becoming more and more like the MLSE we all know and love. When we finally have the manager we believe will make the difference, we ask why the club is not spending all the available money it can under the cap to improve this team, and why it is not signing a second DP. It was a good idea gone bad last year only because Mista was a flop, but what is holding them back now? Particularly after DeRo leaves, this team has got many new parts, but no clear on field leadership and no star player; the competition is taking these risks, why aren't we? Sorry for belaboring this point, but JDG is a DP in name only, the team needs a creative attacking midfielder,who is a field captain, not a guy who plays midfield like a confused central defender. I can't help feel that a Pirlo type player would solidify the transition from defence to offence, giving the defenders more distribution opportunities than the pylon we have at that position now.

Detroit_TFC
04-17-2011, 06:10 PM
The long view version could be that Winter/Mariner will cycle out players who can't play the system and bring in players who (they think) can.

Now whether people will tolerate the process of getting there, that's another question.

tiberius
04-17-2011, 07:06 PM
The long view version could be that Winter/Mariner will cycle out players who can't play the system and bring in players who (they think) can.

Now whether people will tolerate the process of getting there, that's another question.

Hey Detroit - no worries - we have a proven track record for tolerating the cycling of players: Robinson, Wynne, Casey, Dunivant, Cronin, Dero - solid performers who disappear ...

Who the hell is left on the team that we would cry a tear for? (well except for Frei of course and some of us will miss Cann when he inevitably goes...)

[NBF]
04-17-2011, 07:18 PM
Oh yeah, you are right its probably a tactical choice thats creating a deficit in the first 10 minutes, but I think it comes down to Winter's personal choices in the lineup rather than the best man for the position before the game started.

We had a healthy right back in Gargan able to fill the right back position before the game started with Jacob Peterson at the position. We also had a healthy centre back in Attakora before we had to "depend" on Ty Harden in the lineup.

If you look at the last two games Ty Harden is a pylon. He is literally the slowest player on the field. If there was a foot race between Jaime Moreno and Ty Harden. I think Moreno would run laps around Harden.

Jaime Moreno FFS!!!!!!!:o

swan
04-17-2011, 07:27 PM
;1279113']Oh yeah, you are right its probably a tactical choice thats creating a deficit in the first 10 minutes, but I think it comes down to Winter's personal choices in the lineup rather than the best man for the position before the game started.

We had a healthy right back in Gargan able to fill the right back position before the game started with Jacob Peterson at the position. We also had a healthy centre back in Attakora before we had to "depend" on Ty Harden in the lineup.

If you look at the last two games Ty Harden is a pylon. He is literally the slowest player on the field. If there was a foot race between Jaime Moreno and Ty Harden. I think Moreno would run laps around Harden.

Jaime Moreno FFS!!!!!!!:o

seems like he is still experimenting with the players in games or something..

brad
04-17-2011, 09:07 PM
i'm not worried...Alex Ferguson in his first season with United had 4 points after 8 games...gonna take some time

Comparing TFC to United and Winter to one of the greatest managers if all time is a bit of a reach.

I doubt it would be hard dig out a list of managers that were in the same position and failed.

Oldtimer
04-17-2011, 09:15 PM
Comparing TFC to United and Winter to one of the greatest managers if all time is a bit of a reach.

I doubt it would be hard dig out a list of managers that were in the same position and failed.

Obviously its unlikely that we have another Sir Alex, but his point is correct: it takes time to get a team on track, even one of the greatest managers of all time found it so.

Note also that Mr. Ferguson's track record was spotty, he had been fired from one of his previous jobs. The supporters wanted to get rid of him that season, for sure.

ag futbol
04-17-2011, 09:29 PM
You don't necessarily have to play "direct" to beat high pressure defense.

To counteract high-pressure defense we must
- spread out (we must play balls into spaces vacated by pressuring defenders), the opposition want to compress the field, we must defend against this by spacing vertically and horizontally
- play long and diagonal balls (pretty sure we suck at this considering we can't even make short passes)
- move the ball quickly (relates to technical ability and energy, two things which we seemingly have none of)
- combination play (TFC have never done this since we don't move off the ball, lazy, no soccer IQ, I dunno?)
- play with a long dribble (draw defenders out of position, exploit these gaps)
- for goodness sakes have our midfielders show for the ball within reasonable distances

That's all I can think of for now.


It is imperative Winter drills these tactics home in practice and we improve on them. Otherwise we are doomed to failure under his system.

People are upset at Charlie Davies dancing in front of the supporters ... , I'd be more upset that teams are using high pressure defense against us, basically insulting our technical ability right from the opening whistle. (Not that they're wrong, but its just funny they know this tactic will work and that we are currently doing nothing to punish them.)
Yeah i have to agree with this.

For me, it really starts with our backline's inability to move the ball properly. If we're going to play a possession game properly these guys have to be a lot more fluent moving the ball around and simply can't crack under pressure.

I also noticed we were terrible at switching the ball which is very necessary if we want to play a short game all the time because the other team will simply just overload the one side.

billyfly
04-17-2011, 09:55 PM
MLS soccer is a game of ping pong.

Oldtimer
04-17-2011, 11:07 PM
Pretty much spot on.

It will be interesting to see how Winter adapts his strategy, and also how hotter weather affects things.

Winter seems technically aware, perhaps changing things can get better results out of the current squad.

trane
04-18-2011, 02:51 AM
I am not worried. I liked what I saw, in terms of development. Clearly, we have issues in terms of the backline, and team defence in general but they will be resolved, hopefully.

I understand where jloome is coming from, but I these things would be solved, if once we learn to stay in shape at all times, keeping us solid defensively, and simply play better defensively. Reverting to what MLS does is sort of the tail waging the dog, at this point, lets implement and learn the system, and then we will see how it works. Personaly I do not think the issues are about what other MLS teams do, but what we have yet not learned to do.

Luca gol I agree with you. AND I agree with jloome observation, I just do not think that the answer is copying what a league that is deeply flawed tactically, on as he says, and I have observed for years, depends of defensive mistakes ( and they are plenty) as its major tactical approach, is the way to go. We need to bring a better brand of football to this league, and at this point, I believe that we will do it.

trane
04-18-2011, 02:52 AM
MLS soccer is a game of ping pong.

Agreed. And if we do not change that then my days of watching it are pretty well numbered.

CretanBull
04-18-2011, 03:53 AM
Winter's biggest problem is that he's trying to introduce a new and relatively complex system - the basics are easy, the nuances require a higher footie IQ and better natural instincts - to NCAA trained players who didn't start to play really competitive soccer until they were 18 or 19. The amount of quality training and development that a NCAA player has at 21, a European kid has at 15 or 16.

A few years ago Mike Grella would have been the 1st OV pick in the MLS draft, but he chose to go to Leeds instead. At the time, Leeds were in League One (the 3rd division). The manager loved his athletism and raw talent, but often commented on how far behind he was in his development. He was he never anything more than a subsitute (and to be fair, had some good games and scored a few) and when Leeds were promoted to the Championship Grella was sent out on loan to a League One team - he wouldn't be able to cut it in the Championship until he improved his footie IQ. That's where the consensus 1st pick measures up in Europe...great athletes, raw talent, lots of potential - but no instincts, no feel for the game, no innate understanding.

Thats what Winter is dealing with. That's what better players like JDG and Martina are trying to work with.

For all of the talk of a possession based 4-3-3 fluid motion short passing game, we've seen far more of the possession in our own end where the other team doesn't care if we hold the ball, and then lots of long, risky passes, often resulting in turn overs, then relying on JDG and Tchani to recover the ball. If they win the ball the 4 opposing mids on our 3 gives them very little time/space to make an outlet pass so they often end up turning the ball over. Our front 3 need to VASTLY improve their off the ball movement and make themselves instantly available to receive an outlet pass. Until we securely have the ball in our possession, our 4-3-3 should look like a 4-5-1 with the wide players falling back into the midfield to collect the ball/receive a pass and then quickly get forward reforming 4-3-3. All of that is second nature to a 16 year old kid in any European country, but its all new to a NCAA graduate/MLS vetran.

v00d00daddy
04-18-2011, 05:27 AM
Mod: Please don't move this into the post-game forum. It's a perspective based on several games, not just the latest.


TFC's "slow start" issue is not really a slow start issue -- it's a consequence of a bad tactical choice: to play "build from the back" early in the game in MLS.

MLS is a direct league, where quick pressure on the ball and athleticism and valued above technique and movement. In the early portion of a game, when an opponent's energy is highest, our "build from the back" is intensely vulnerable to full-field pressure, because our opponent is more interested in creating an error than maintaining team shape.

It would make more sense for us to play direct until the initial burst of energy that typifies the start of a game is done and the game has settled down somewhat. After about 20-30 minutes, we switch to the controlled possession game and force them to chase.

The same rule would apply in the second half.

This actually suits us better than simply playing possession as we have two highly technically skilled wingers who are able to bring down a ball in direct play and take a defender on one-one-one, as opposed to just being a component of the short-build-up play that's integral to "total" football.

In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.

I agree that this approach could be effective but I don't think it serves the team well in the long run.

Winter has said that he wants to be one of the first teams (if not the first) to be successful playing a style different than what has become the norm in MLS.

Playing possession right off the start CAN be successful. The only breakdown has been the back line.

A competent defender should welcome opposition players running at them. If the team is in sync it's actualy exactly what a possession based team wants.

Unfortunately we don't have a back line that can cope with a bit of pressure. We have guys like Cann (not so much) and Attakora (seems like all the time lately) that hoof the ball to midfield when pressure arrives. If they were more confident in their ability to trap and move the ball towards JDG and Tchani the whole pressure thing would be a non starter.

Combine that with the ongoing clusterfuck at RB and you have pretty easy pickings for the opposition.

So....yes....deviating from possession in the first 20-30 minutes of the game might garner better results, and I'm all for that, but only as long as it doesn't become THE gameplan.

Our back line (and the rest of the team) need to learn how to properly play Winters style. The only way to do that is to learn from mistakes.

denime
04-18-2011, 05:32 AM
Winter's biggest problem is that he's trying to introduce a new and relatively complex system - the basics are easy, the nuances require a higher footie IQ and better natural instincts - to NCAA trained players who didn't start to play really competitive soccer until they were 18 or 19. The amount of quality training and development that a NCAA player has at 21, a European kid has at 15 or 16.

A few years ago Mike Grella would have been the 1st OV pick in the MLS draft, but he chose to go to Leeds instead. At the time, Leeds were in League One (the 3rd division). The manager loved his athletism and raw talent, but often commented on how far behind he was in his development. He was he never anything more than a subsitute (and to be fair, had some good games and scored a few) and when Leeds were promoted to the Championship Grella was sent out on loan to a League One team - he wouldn't be able to cut it in the Championship until he improved his footie IQ. That's where the consensus 1st pick measures up in Europe...great athletes, raw talent, lots of potential - but no instincts, no feel for the game, no innate understanding.

Thats what Winter is dealing with. That's what better players like JDG and Martina are trying to work with.

For all of the talk of a possession based 4-3-3 fluid motion short passing game, we've seen far more of the possession in our own end where the other team doesn't care if we hold the ball, and then lots of long, risky passes, often resulting in turn overs, then relying on JDG and Tchani to recover the ball. If they win the ball the 4 opposing mids on our 3 gives them very little time/space to make an outlet pass so they often end up turning the ball over. Our front 3 need to VASTLY improve their off the ball movement and make themselves instantly available to receive an outlet pass. Until we securely have the ball in our possession, our 4-3-3 should look like a 4-5-1 with the wide players falling back into the midfield to collect the ball/receive a pass and then quickly get forward reforming 4-3-3. All of that is second nature to a 16 year old kid in any European country, but its all new to a NCAA graduate/MLS vetran.

Very well said :thumbsup:

keem-o-sabi
04-18-2011, 06:22 AM
It's fine to play the ball out of the back. I've coached in this system before, the problem is the backs aren't either looking forward to find a target to play to feet, or the targets are standing and not open.

Yes the stats show that a really high percentage of goals scored come from dispossessing a team in their own defensive third, then set pieces, then passing movements (although goals off of passing movements has increased with teams looking to play on the ground more in the past two years). The players are choosing the wrong options (ie Saturday's first 2 goals).

Yes they aren't looking to stretch other teams ever. That is a problem, when you watch Ajax/Holland play this system, it can be very direct. Your first option in the 433/343 is to look to your target striker, can you play him in the feet, then the wings up top. You want to eliminate as many defenders as possible under control. Under previous regimes here at TFC, it was eliminate defenders, and hope to win the second ball off of the long ball.

The system is fine, the players off the ball aren't working enough.

trane
04-18-2011, 06:33 AM
Winter's biggest problem is that he's trying to introduce a new and relatively complex system - the basics are easy, the nuances require a higher footie IQ and better natural instincts - to NCAA trained players who didn't start to play really competitive soccer until they were 18 or 19. The amount of quality training and development that a NCAA player has at 21, a European kid has at 15 or 16.

A few years ago Mike Grella would have been the 1st OV pick in the MLS draft, but he chose to go to Leeds instead. At the time, Leeds were in League One (the 3rd division). The manager loved his athletism and raw talent, but often commented on how far behind he was in his development. He was he never anything more than a subsitute (and to be fair, had some good games and scored a few) and when Leeds were promoted to the Championship Grella was sent out on loan to a League One team - he wouldn't be able to cut it in the Championship until he improved his footie IQ. That's where the consensus 1st pick measures up in Europe...great athletes, raw talent, lots of potential - but no instincts, no feel for the game, no innate understanding.

Thats what Winter is dealing with. That's what better players like JDG and Martina are trying to work with.

For all of the talk of a possession based 4-3-3 fluid motion short passing game, we've seen far more of the possession in our own end where the other team doesn't care if we hold the ball, and then lots of long, risky passes, often resulting in turn overs, then relying on JDG and Tchani to recover the ball. If they win the ball the 4 opposing mids on our 3 gives them very little time/space to make an outlet pass so they often end up turning the ball over. Our front 3 need to VASTLY improve their off the ball movement and make themselves instantly available to receive an outlet pass. Until we securely have the ball in our possession, our 4-3-3 should look like a 4-5-1 with the wide players falling back into the midfield to collect the ball/receive a pass and then quickly get forward reforming 4-3-3. All of that is second nature to a 16 year old kid in any European country, but its all new to a NCAA graduate/MLS vetran.

Agreed. But we do have many players now that should have enough footy IQ, maybe not enough of them yet.

MarkoftheDrink
04-18-2011, 08:24 AM
I think it is to early to judge this team in terms of how our system relates to other teams or the league as a whole. Total football relies on the whole team playing as one much more so than more direct systems. Any weak links in our team or lack of cohesion in the team is much more apparent when you don't play hoof and hope. This is also a system that relies on self confidence and split second decision making. Second guessing and overthinking kills the flow and beauty of this style of football, but these things only come with familiarity.

Until Winter has found a starting eleven that he can go to week after week, that then has time to gel with eachother, I don't think its possible to judge what Winter is trying to do here and whether it works in MLS.

It is tempting to make judgements with the lack of success we've had so far, the past failures of other Dutch coaches trying this system in MLS and failing, our first four seasons, the media questioning what is being done here, etc. Growing up with as a Leafs fan I've seen the short cut to success been taken too many times. Shit, wasn't MoJo's reign here just a microcosm of that "quick fix, just get into the playoff to appease the fans" mentality?

TFC did not exist five years ago and nothing was ever built, we've been at square one since day one and IMO we finally have a builder. Please let him build before you decide to get out your pitchforks and drive him out of town. If he turns out to be MoJo 2.0 by all means I'll lead the mob but until then have some faith and patience and watch for the signs that this team is being run like a proper football club with a direction and a philosophy.

Detroit_TFC
04-18-2011, 08:25 AM
CB - you've put the point right on it. What Winter seems to want to do is very different from the current frame of reference for most players both currently in the league and coming up from NCAA. It's big gamble, one that could pay off big but also could fail. It may require bringing in players deeply in tune with his approach, but for the pennies we have to offer we aren't going to get the highly talented players who could make an immediate impact. Also we'll be training players through the academy but that will take years. The potential payoff is a highly technical squad that would be difficult for any team in the league to breakdown. Well, we're in for a period of unpleasant and possibly stomach turning "sausage-making" to get there...if Winter is given that chance even do that much.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:28 AM
^ He has to be given the chance. I am one to call for a managers head quickly, when shit is not happening, but this situation is different, this is a rebuild. Now at the end of the season and we have not improved my opinion may change but we are a long way from that.

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 08:28 AM
It's fine to play the ball out of the back. I've coached in this system before, the problem is the backs aren't either looking forward to find a target to play to feet, or the targets are standing and not open.



You've spoken to my frustration in coaching youth players. I've tried to teach a 4-3-3 with movement to Canadian youth... the biggest problem is that they have been brought up with a direct style since age 4, and don't have the conceptual framework to do it well. However, they can learn, but it's really difficult for them, which is why TFCA is crucial long-term.


Winter's biggest problem is that he's trying to introduce a new and relatively complex system - the basics are easy, the nuances require a higher footie IQ and better natural instincts - to NCAA trained players who didn't start to play really competitive soccer until they were 18 or 19. The amount of quality training and development that a NCAA player has at 21, a European kid has at 15 or 16.



This is the big issue. Canadians and Americans lack the IQ... but I think it can be taught.

Jloome's main point... that it's hard to achieve in MLS is correct. Now top Premiership sides play a hybrid between direct and possession styles... and they are able to absorb the pressure that the more direct teams play. So I think that there is a chance that TFC can find a consistent style that will withstand the pressure. In the meantime, maybe jloome's idea will work.


^ He has to be given the chance. I am one to call for a managers head quickly, when shit is not happening, but this situation is different, this is a rebuild. Now at the end of the season and we have not improved my opinion may change but we are a long way from that.

Agreed.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 08:31 AM
Mod: Please don't move this into the post-game forum. It's a perspective based on several games, not just the latest.


TFC's "slow start" issue is not really a slow start issue -- it's a consequence of a bad tactical choice: to play "build from the back" early in the game in MLS.

MLS is a direct league, where quick pressure on the ball and athleticism and valued above technique and movement. In the early portion of a game, when an opponent's energy is highest, our "build from the back" is intensely vulnerable to full-field pressure, because our opponent is more interested in creating an error than maintaining team shape.

It would make more sense for us to play direct until the initial burst of energy that typifies the start of a game is done and the game has settled down somewhat. After about 20-30 minutes, we switch to the controlled possession game and force them to chase.

The same rule would apply in the second half.

This actually suits us better than simply playing possession as we have two highly technically skilled wingers who are able to bring down a ball in direct play and take a defender on one-one-one, as opposed to just being a component of the short-build-up play that's integral to "total" football.

In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.


I have always thought that we needed a hybrid of a direct game sprinkled with possession (or the other way around, your pick). This strict adherence to "building" from the back won't work with the skill level we have. If we were Barcelona, we could fight off the initial pressure by maintaining shape and possession, but we simply don't have the skill level to do that. It's far easier to force a mistake than it is to keep possession and teams know this and are ramming it down our throats.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:36 AM
^ But roogsy, should we not try to learn to play differenlty? ( I am realy interested in your opinion) I for one, am tiered of watching MLS, as Billyfly called it, ping pong footy.


Althought I agree that a good club, can play different routes, midle wings, over the top, counter, ect. A good club shuold be felxible to mold its attack and tactics, to what best suites any particular game.


[ People always talk about how they hate to watch defensive football as opposed to attacking football, well watching this league what I have realized is that I hate watching tacticaly inept football, it is borring it is not an interesting game to watch, nor is it effective agaisnt better clubs, if all you do is launch or run right at the defenders, and hope that they fuck up, which they do all to often] I love Billyfly's description as it is perfect, it is like ping pong, the ball/players are launched into one direction, then repeled and are launched back in the other, or the ball simply bounces around the pitch like a pinball machine.

Beach_Red
04-18-2011, 08:43 AM
^ He has to be given the chance. I am one to call for a managers head quickly, when shit is not happening, but this situation is different, this is a rebuild. Now at the end of the season and we have not improved my opinion may change but we are a long way from that.


Yes, he absolutely has to be given the chance. Let's not forget, he (and Mariner) have a lot more to do than just the on field stuff. They're still dealing with an FO that couldn't manage the paperwork for a simple trial in the off-season. There are probably some big office politics to deal with.

This team is digging its way out of a deep hole.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:44 AM
^ That is exactly it.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 08:47 AM
^ But roogsy, should we not try to learn to play differenlty? ( I am realy interested in your opinion) I for one, am tiered of watching MLS, as Billyfly called it, ping pong footy.

Yes.

In my opinion we should have taken the best elements of this team, the things we did well, and then adjusted them to a less direct style.

What Dasovic's extremely short tenure showed is that we are able to score. Why have we regressed? Because the team decided to throw out everything we learned last year and be tunnel-visioned in the way to build this team. I think that's a mistake. Winter says he watched tapes from last year but why then has he completely ignored what this team did well? Every player out there looks uncomfortable.

What I think this team needed was to keep last year's formations that they were comfortable with and slowly and gradually change it as players were brought in, to a more offensive and possession minded formation. Right now, in a 4-3-3 we have taken one less player away from the central midfield role and put him in an attacking position, which has created pressure on our midfield that they have not been able to handle and instead we find ourselves on our heels right from the start, ultimately putting pressure on our defensive line which has forced them into multiple errors. And since we have not found any capable wingbacks yet, the system is bound to be ineffectual until we do.

At the end of the day, if you don't have the personnel, you can't implement the system you want. Correct personnel management would would dictate that you find the system that fits your players until you are able to bring in the players that fit the ultimate system you want. I firmly believe Winter has put the cart before the horse. I don't want Winter gone...I want him to learn from his mistakes. But he keeps making more. Putting Peterson on the backline is the exact same type of mistake he made as putting Cann on the wing in the first game. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

trane
04-18-2011, 08:50 AM
^ I usually agree with your approach, the system has to fit the players, and then changed it over as you get the players we want in. BUT I understand what they want to do and why. They believe that a complete rebuild, and I do not blame them. I agree thought, that you end up throwing out the baby with the bath water, but I think it may be worth in the long run.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 09:07 AM
Someone should count the time of average possession before a player passes the ball to a teammate.

The diff between MLS and Euro leagues is right there. The defense in MLS is on top of you right away.

trane
04-18-2011, 09:19 AM
^ This is something that I have been thinking about. But even in regular play, here people are always simply running to the ball carrier and pressing, even if outnumbered, and yes getting on top of the player with the ball, but that also seems to contribute to poor shape at the back, meaning that guys pull way out of position to press a ball carrier, leaving miles of room behind them, and if another player runs into that space or the attacking player beats you, you are in deep shit.

In Europe you are tought to be aware not only of the player with the ball, BUT of were you are on the pitch and the other players, and to move and play defensively accordingly.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 09:22 AM
What I think this team needed was to keep last year's formations that they were comfortable with and slowly and gradually change it as players were brought in, to a more offensive and possession minded formation. Right now, in a 4-3-3 we have taken one less player away from the central midfield role and put him in an attacking position, which has created pressure on our midfield that they have not been able to handle and instead we find ourselves on our heels right from the start, ultimately putting pressure on our defensive line which has forced them into multiple errors. And since we have not found any capable wingbacks yet, the system is bound to be ineffectual until we do.

At the end of the day, if you don't have the personnel, you can't implement the system you want. Correct personnel management would would dictate that you find the system that fits your players until you are able to bring in the players that fit the ultimate system you want. I firmly believe Winter has put the cart before the horse. I don't want Winter gone...I want him to learn from his mistakes. But he keeps making more. Putting Peterson on the backline is the exact same type of mistake he made as putting Cann on the wing in the first game. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

This.

I said something similar in the post-game rant thread.

This ultimately falls on the coach. I just hope he learns because the team, more than anything else, needs proper stability.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 09:23 AM
The amount of space around a player when he has the ball in any Euro league as compared to the MLS is staggering.

Its so blatant that I sometimes wonder if our pitch is too small.

brad
04-18-2011, 09:24 AM
I do think it's a gamble, and probably a smart one. If Winter can get this team playing this style mist of othe MLS teams will spend the match chasing ghosts around the pitch. We will end up being a team that scores a lot of second half goals once the opposition has tired out.

I do think that getting a sound possession based system would allow TFC to become a dominant team in this league.

The big question is if he has the talent to make this happen. Personally, I think he still needs better talent in some positions to do so.

trane
04-18-2011, 09:26 AM
The amount of space around a player when he has the ball in any Euro league as compared to the MLS is staggering.

Its so blatant that I sometimes wonder if our pitch is to small.


Hahahahaha. This tought has sometimes crossed my mind, it seems smallish, for real, maybe it is because I am used to the larger San Siro as a kid, which looks huge.

trane
04-18-2011, 09:29 AM
The amount of space around a player when he has the ball in any Euro league as compared to the MLS is staggering.

Its so blatant that I sometimes wonder if our pitch is to small.

I will say this though, in Europe the attacking player ussualy has option, and the moment, that the defensive player starts approaching he gets rid of the ball, before the defender gets close, this only chances when the field gets tight in the last third of the pitch. In MLS the passing options are not there, and the attacker has to hold the ball longer as well, allowing the defender to move up and press him.

Pigfynn
04-18-2011, 09:31 AM
What a thoughtful and useful thread this is.

It's refreshing to read.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 09:32 AM
^Exactly Trane. So what does this mean? What is the real problem and how do you fix it?

trane
04-18-2011, 09:34 AM
^ I still think you need to be patient and implement the system, I may have approached it diffrenlty, meaning that slowly changed it over, but now that we have chosen this road, you stick to it, not for ever, but for the forceable future. They must learn individualy and as a club.


By the way you realy got me wondering about pitch size.

Yohan
04-18-2011, 09:36 AM
^Exactly Trane. So what does this mean? What is the real problem and how do you fix it?
drill the team until they get it. less talented teams in MLS do it and make their system work because each players play as a team. TFC is still a jumble of individuals trying to pass the ball to each other. (kinda like NYRB actually)

see Colorado and Houston play. not very skilled individually, (except some key players) but players know what to do in each tactical situation and make their system work

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 09:36 AM
The big question is if he has the talent to make this happen. Personally, I think he still needs better talent in some positions to do so.

Agreed. Some players just won't be able to step up their play. That's where you stop looking at systems and just look at the quality of players on the pitch. We are very weak in certain positions. It will take time to fix this.

I'm agreed that most of the squad should be able to learn the system, it will probably take a couple more months to see results. Hopefully the pit won't be too deep by then, and we can see some post-season play this year.

Yohan
04-18-2011, 09:44 AM
Agreed. Some players just won't be able to step up their play. That's where you stop looking at systems and just look at the quality of players on the pitch. We are very weak in certain positions. It will take time to fix this.

I'm agreed that most of the squad should be able to learn the system, it will probably take a couple more months to see results. Hopefully the pit won't be too deep by then, and we can see some post-season play this year.
Hopefully in a few months, Winter will be able to get rid of some bad habits, like long balls to Martina or Stevanovic when they are standing still. Most retarded example of long ball use

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 09:50 AM
drill the team until they get it. less talented teams in MLS do it and make their system work because each players play as a team. TFC is still a jumble of individuals trying to pass the ball to each other. (kinda like NYRB actually)

see Colorado and Houston play. not very skilled individually, (except some key players) but players know what to do in each tactical situation and make their system work


Exactly.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 09:50 AM
Interesting article that speaks to this "passing game".

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2011/04/armchair-analyst-third-central-midfielder

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2011, 09:52 AM
What a thoughtful and useful thread this is.

It's refreshing to read.

yep several threads like this after the loss and ive been avoiding the bored based on the fact that i thought it would be worse than usual. a nice surprise really

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 09:55 AM
Interesting article that speaks to this "passing game".

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2011/04/armchair-analyst-third-central-midfielder

Good find, and relevant.


The downside to these tactics, of course, is that it takes several years of practice and familiarity to achieve the level of cohesion RSL display. Most teams, and most fanbases, don’t have that kind of patience.


Real Salt Lake did, and now they’re in the CONCACAF Champions League finals.

Heathen
04-18-2011, 09:55 AM
i'm not worried...Alex Ferguson in his first season with United had 4 points after 8 games...gonna take some time

You do know about what Ferguson achieved at Aberdeen before going to Man Utd?

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 09:56 AM
I have always thought that we needed a hybrid of a direct game sprinkled with possession (or the other way around, your pick). This strict adherence to "building" from the back won't work with the skill level we have. If we were Barcelona, we could fight off the initial pressure by maintaining shape and possession, but we simply don't have the skill level to do that. It's far easier to force a mistake than it is to keep possession and teams know this and are ramming it down our throats.

Agreed.

Heathen
04-18-2011, 10:03 AM
I have always thought that we needed a hybrid of a direct game sprinkled with possession (or the other way around, your pick). This strict adherence to "building" from the back won't work with the skill level we have. If we were Barcelona, we could fight off the initial pressure by maintaining shape and possession, but we simply don't have the skill level to do that. It's far easier to force a mistake than it is to keep possession and teams know this and are ramming it down our throats.

Exactly, this is all I'm asking for some flexibility in approach. I don't know if you can ever build a mini Barcelona/Ajax clone in the MLS because of salary cap, player restrictions etc

denime
04-18-2011, 10:21 AM
^Exactly Trane. So what does this mean? What is the real problem and how do you fix it?

It comes down to skill level,not the size of the pitch.
Defenders in Europe have respect from opponent midfielders and forwards,they know they can not charge like 12 years old kids,or MLS players in our case.Why?
Tactic,team shape,composure and respect because at the end midfielder or forward will make him look stupid with a nice move and let him miss the ball and player.

Best fix is skilled players,MLS physical league and we all know why,zero skill.Sad part is MLS is proud about being physical league.

Players have to be comfortable with the ball and our back 4 are not comfortable at all,other teams know that and they pressuring them,it will take some time and new players to solve that problem,it's obvious our defenders are not confident when they have a ball,panic mode kicks in and we eather boot the ball or make a soft pass across the field that is so easy to intercept.

denime
04-18-2011, 10:25 AM
Hopefully in a few months, Winter will be able to get rid of some bad habits, like long balls to Martina or Stevanovic when they are standing still. Most retarded example of long ball use

THIS has to stop immediately.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 10:28 AM
Players have to be comfortable with the ball and our back 4 are not comfortable at all,other teams know that and they pressuring them,it will take some time and new players to solve that problem,it's obvious our defenders are not confident when they have a ball,panic mode kicks in and we eather boot the ball or make a soft pass across the field that is so easy to intercept.

I have made an effective defender on my teams doing exactly this. I have never had much skill. Rather poor to be frank. But I am a big, fast guy with great movement and I have always been effective against more skilled players who are easily pressed into mistakes. If these players ever figured out (and some did) not to panic when I defended them and use their skill against me, I would always get beat. But when I was able to throw them off their game and make rash decisions, I was always able to effectively disrupt offensive attacks.

On the same note, because of my lack of ball skills, I have always been very poor at bringing the ball out of my own defensive zone. Any pressure against me by offensive players would result in balls being coughed up or at least my heaving the ball upfield in order not to lose possession myself.

I see my amateur level lack of skill in our own players. And that disturbs me. They should not be making the same mistake some hack in a weekend league makes.

Asking me to play a possession game is ridiculous. I see the same foolishness in asking our players to do that as well.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 10:38 AM
I have made an effective defender on my teams doing exactly this. I have never had much skill. Rather poor to be frank. But I am a big, fast guy with great movement and I have always been effective against more skilled players who are easily pressed into mistakes. If these players ever figured out (and some did) not to panic when I defended them and use their skill against me, I would always get beat. But when I was able to throw them off their game and make rash decisions, I was always able to effectively disrupt offensive attacks.

On the same note, because of my lack of ball skills, I have always been very poor at bringing the ball out of my own defensive zone. Any pressure against me by offensive players would result in balls being coughed up or at least my heaving the ball upfield in order not to lose possession myself.

I see my amateur level lack of skill in our own players. And that disturbs me. They should not be making the same mistake some hack in a weekend league makes.

Asking me to play a possession game is ridiculous. I see the same foolishness in asking our players to do that as well.

While I agree with you that asking players to play roles they are illsuited for is bound to not work- isn't that the point this year? Winter is trying to find players to fit the system as we go. By the time the club is ready to compete maybe only 5-6 players from todays roster will still be around the club, but they'll be the core who know the system inside and out and who can drive us to be a successful club for years down the road. It's going to take time, this whole process. Even if we have success this year, it's still short term with mostly temporary players. We won't truly see Winterball for 3-4 years, when the academy players start taking roster spots. Not that we can't be successful or compete until then, but that's when we'll really see his vision for the club come to life.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 10:48 AM
While I agree with you that asking players to play roles they are illsuited for is bound to not work- isn't that the point this year? Winter is trying to find players to fit the system as we go. By the time the club is ready to compete maybe only 5-6 players from todays roster will still be around the club, but they'll be the core who know the system inside and out and who can drive us to be a successful club for years down the road. It's going to take time, this whole process. Even if we have success this year, it's still short term with mostly temporary players. We won't truly see Winterball for 3-4 years, when the academy players start taking roster spots. Not that we can't be successful or compete until then, but that's when we'll really see his vision for the club come to life.

Then again we are talking about putting the cart before the horse and fitting square pegs in round holes.

If the players we have NOW are not suited for the system, then you can't force the system in until you have the players. Therefore, it is an absolute waste of time to make these current players play a system they are not suited for and a good manager would adjust his system to suit his current players, not some future roster of players that has not appeared yet.

Rebuilding is rebuilding and that is fine. If he is still in the middle of rebuilding, then so be it. But in the meantime, you still have to try to go out and win games with whatever mishmash of players you have and making them do something they just don't have the ability to do is just plain stupid. You still have to keep the PAYING fans happy. You still have to try to make it into the playoffs. League games are not for experimenting. Preseason is for that. Training sessions is for that. Shoot...even friendlies are for that. League games count. You have to look at your roster, know their abilities and create a plan that uses the PLAYERS abilities to their utmost effectiveness, thus giving yourself the best shot at winning NOW. He is not doing that and that is what is giving me the most frustration in this entire exercise. His inflexibility is very similar to Preki's, even if it is a completely different style, and we all know how Preki's year turned out.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 10:57 AM
Then again we are talking about putting the cart before the horse and fitting square pegs in round holes.

If the players we have NOW are not suited for the system, then you can't force the system in until you have the players. Therefore, it is an absolute waste of time to make these current players play a system they are not suited for and a good manager would adjust his system to suit his current players, not some future roster of players that has not appeared yet.

Rebuilding is rebuilding and that is fine. If he is still in the middle of rebuilding, then so be it. But in the meantime, you still have to try to go out and win games with whatever mishmash of players you have and making them do something they just don't have the ability to do is just plain stupid. You still have to keep the PAYING fans happy. You still have to try to make it into the playoffs. League games are not for experimenting. Preseason is for that. Training sessions is for that. Shoot...even friendlies are for that. League games count. You have to look at your roster, know their abilities and create a plan that uses the PLAYERS abilities to their utmost effectiveness, thus giving yourself the best shot at winning NOW. He is not doing that and that is what is giving me the most frustration in this entire exercise. His inflexibility is very similar to Preki's, even if it is a completely different style, and we all know how Preki's year turned out.

Assuming our core going forward is Frei, Nana, JDG, Henry, Omphroy (presumptive I know, but sue me I'm an optimist), Lindsay, Tchani and Zavarise, do we want those guys learning a system that fits the random players we have now, or do we want them drilling for the style of football we'll be asking them to play for years? I know most of those guys aren't starters or with the first team yet, but they all train together still. Those guys learning is our goal this year, any success on the pitch is a bonus. They need to learn their roles, they need to learn how they have to view the games and assess situations. Sometimes short term success and long term success ARE mutually exclusive. Putting a band-aid on this season may make us feel better about this year but it'll do damage long term.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 11:11 AM
Sorry Waggy, that is ridiculous. Adjusting along the way is not a "band aid" solution, it is a realistic evaluation of your current team make-up as opposed to hoping the team make-up changes somewhere along the road. Nobody has proven that trying to win games now is somehow sacrificing the future. Success on the pitch now should not be a "bonus". That is a defeatist attitude and completely unecessary.

As for learning their roles, that too is far too hopeful. I am fairly certain they already know their roles, whether they have the ability to fulfill their roles effectively is another matter.

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 11:14 AM
I'm starting to think that the defensive woes are partly becasue of the lack of an attacking mid and the fact that our wingers don't show for the ball as much as they should. Tchani and DeGuzman can break up plays all they want but if they don't have a diagonal option in a winger or attacking mid, their only option is a square pass to one another, a back pass to a central defender or a through ball to a lone central attacker who has no support. This makes it very easy to pressure to force errors.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Sorry Waggy, that is ridiculous. Adjusting along the way is not a "band aid" solution, it is a realistic evaluation of your current team make-up as opposed to hoping the team make-up changes somewhere along the road. Nobody has proven that trying to win games now is somehow sacrificing the future. Success on the pitch now should not be a "bonus". That is a defeatist attitude and completely unecessary.

As for learning their roles, that too is far too hopeful. I am fairly certain they already know their roles, whether they have the ability to fulfill their roles effectively is another matter.

The ability question's fair. The idea of a club implementing one style of play from the first team to the academy though has a lot of merit. Isn't the point of a rebuilding year to figure out who has the ability to stay and who doesn't? Who can play what roles, who is expendable, figure out what holes need to be filled etc? That doesn't come from changing the system annually to get slightly better results. Winter needs to be playing Winterball to figure out who can do it and who can't. Besides, it's not like this team as currently comprised playing ANY system is going to do very well, so why rock the boat to save an extra 2 or 3 points? I may be being overly hopeful about the future but I'm realistic about this club this year. The playoffs would be nice, but it's very unlikely. The club just doesn't have the talent. I'd rather be playing the system of football we're going to be playing in the future so the management can figure out which current players can be part of it in the future and the young players can be learning it in training.

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 11:30 AM
Roogsy and Waggy,

You both are essentially arguing two completely valid coaching methods. One school of thought says, find the players to play the coaches system (al la Jose Moreno) while the other says play the system that fits the players you have (a la Luis Van Gaal)

I haven't read all of your posts so hopefully that makes sense.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 11:36 AM
The ability question's fair. The idea of a club implementing one style of play from the first team to the academy though has a lot of merit. Isn't the point of a rebuilding year to figure out who has the ability to stay and who doesn't? Who can play what roles, who is expendable, figure out what holes need to be filled etc? That doesn't come from changing the system annually to get slightly better results. Winter needs to be playing Winterball to figure out who can do it and who can't. Besides, it's not like this team as currently comprised playing ANY system is going to do very well, so why rock the boat to save an extra 2 or 3 points? I may be being overly hopeful about the future but I'm realistic about this club this year. The playoffs would be nice, but it's very unlikely. The club just doesn't have the talent. I'd rather be playing the system of football we're going to be playing in the future so the management can figure out which current players can be part of it in the future and the young players can be learning it in training.

The highlighted portion of your post is exactly what the problem is here. What guarantees do you have that Winterball IS what will bring TFC success? How do you know whether Winter will ever be able to bring in sufficient talent considering the salary cap in MLS?

MLS is and has always been about working with what you have and adding pieces you have enough room to add in order to achieve success, not about fantasizing about the kind of team you'd like to have in an ideal world. This isn't Europe where the limits on what you can spend on a roster depends on what an owner is willing to pay. My biggest fear is that a year or two down the line, when Winter has finally realized he just can't fit "Winterball" into the MLS salary cap that he has to make the necessary adjustments after having wasted this time trying to fit (again sorry to overuse it but I think it's the most suitable metaphor) a square peg into a round hole. The truth is that I firmly believe this new system will eventually HAVE to be adjusted and bastardized into something that fits MLS so why not do it now? We shouldn't waste our time trying to force it into something it can never be.

Heathen
04-18-2011, 11:39 AM
I can tell you from long experience continually losing is no fun, and I have to wonder how many of those who say they're willing to put up with being crap will feel the same way a few more humiliations down the road. I'm not asking for the play-offs or even winning the NCC this year but I expected better than this, honestly I've seen very little to be optimistic about over 6 games.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:39 AM
Very true Dreadlocks. And both can be very successful like you pointed out

Edit: Roogs I think it may just be a combination of me being a bit optimistic and you being a bit pessimistic. Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You are right about what traditionally has done well in MLS, but MLS as a league is pretty organic and esp over the past few years has changed a lot. There's no reason to not try and innovate and be ahead of the curve rather then behind it. It's risky, sure, but it comes down to whether or not you trust the people steering the ship so to speak. I may not have a tonne of trust in MLSE, but they'll be gone in the next year anyways and Winter and Mariner have proven themselves to be worthy of some faith/trust. At least so far.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 11:43 AM
The crazy thing about all this is that we are still allowing the team to determine for us our expectations. The team says they are rebuilding and we should be patient...so the fans give in for the most part. The team says wait and this new system will bring glory to TFC and the fans buy into it for the most part. Neither has any validity in my eyes. We already went through 4 horrible years...no other team has had to go through that. You have expansion teams that are competing night in and night out and we can't? Patience is reasonable when it is obviously required...not so in this case. TFC didn't get their act together in the offseason while other teams did. And people are forgetting that.

As for waiting for this future "glory" that this new system will bring us...what proof do we have that Winter and this new system will indeed prove to be successful? Is this not just another multi-year plan that we have been asked to buy into? Someone prove to me that this plan isn't going to blow up in our face just like the old plan did? Why aren't people more skeptical? What has Winter won as a coach that says I should put all my eggs in this basket? What is to say that this particular style won't be completely shut down in MLS by it's physicality and if it is? We've invested a lot of time and effort into it. There are not guarantees in sport, but you don't leave everything up to chance either.

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 11:50 AM
What has Winter won as a coach that says I should put all my eggs in this basket?


What did Kreis win before he took over RSL?

Wull
04-18-2011, 11:50 AM
He's not just changing the first team here. He's trying to implement a culture, a structure, an identity. this what takes time. We could try and opt for the quick fix but when said fix is gone we're almost back to where started. If Aron's legacy is that he helped create an academy that brings through players that can actually do the basics really well then I think it'll have helped both club and country for many years to come.

I don't think that's all he'll manage though. I do think this team is destined for a bigger and brighter future over the next few years if he can implement everything he envisions without interference from above and the stands.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 11:54 AM
What did Kreis win before he took over RSL?


I see...so the way you manage your life is by looking to the exception and not the rule? How many failed former players who become coaches are there for every Kreis? By your rationale, shouldn't we have looked at an MLS player with MLS experience who has become a coach in MLS?

How do you know that Winter won't be another Gullit if we're going to do comparisons?

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
Roogs, faith is believing in the absence of proof. That's part of being a fan of a club. Not 100% of the time and certainly not blindly, but if you don't have any even after a brand new coaching and management team was brought in... I understand the skepticism but demanding results 2.5 months in to a new regime isn't being 'a realist', it's just being negative. Mo is gone, the club started fresh as of January. We can't hold the Mo era against Winter. That's unfair to him, we can only judge Winter on what he has done since he's come on and what his goals and visions are. We got conned by Mo once, it doesn't mean we're getting conned again or constantly. It's like jilted lover syndrom. Just because your girlfriend cheated on you doesn't mean all girls are sluts etc. In the words of the marmut from Lion King (it's been a while), sometimes you just have to put the past behind you

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
I see...so the way you manage your life is by looking to the exception and not the rule? How many failed former players who become coaches are there for every Kreis? By your rationale, shouldn't we have looked at an MLS player with MLS experience who has become a coach in MLS?

How do you know that Winter won't be another Gullit if we're going to do comparisons?

Gullit was a big name.

If a big name is what you want that is the perfect example.
Last I saw, Sir Alex wasn't lining up for the TFC job, even though he had once considered emigrating to Canada.


Just because your girlfriend cheated on you doesn't mean all girls are sluts etc.

Thats the thing. We're not going to get an experienced world-class coach, but not all new coaches are crap, even if Mo was.

rocker
04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
I see...so the way you manage your life is by looking to the exception and not the rule? How many failed former players who become coaches are there for every Kreis?

Can you answer your own question? I'd like a detailed accounting of all the coaches in MLS history who failed, and their backgrounds, before I can tell if Kreis is the exception.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
As for waiting for this future "glory" that this new system will bring us...what proof do we have that Winter and this new system will indeed prove to be successful? Is this not just another multi-year plan that we have been asked to buy into? Someone prove to me that this plan isn't going to blow up in our face just like the old plan did? Why aren't people more skeptical? What has Winter won as a coach that says I should put all my eggs in this basket?

My position all along. Why are we not bringing in people to coach this team, who have a proven track record? Why are we always the new kid on the block's experiment?

Winter's 'system' is second hand experience that has never been implemented. Why are people so excited about this?

Why cant we just build a squad of players who are adept in this league and know what to expect? This seems to have worked for about 4 expansion teams that have arrived since us. Portland is kicking ass, Vancouver are looking very credible, Seattle has asserted itself from the start, Philadelphia are top of the conference and SJ made the playoffs and got the golden boot player last year.

Winter has come into this league determined to educate everybody in 'attractive football' and the other coaches are devising gameplans specifically to break his well advertised and predictable 'system' and doing it succesfully.

its bonkers Im telling you

billyfly
04-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Roogsy and Waggy,

You both are essentially arguing two completely valid coaching methods. One school of thought says, find the players to play the coaches system (al la Jose Moreno) while the other says play the system that fits the players you have (a la Luis Van Gaal)

I haven't read all of your posts so hopefully that makes sense.

Jose Mourinho?

Whoop
04-18-2011, 11:59 AM
Question.

On one side you have those preaching patience and on the other side you have others saying it's not working. The ones preaching patience... well they'll be patient, let the coach work the kinks out. But to those saying it's not working, what is the solution?

Gazza
04-18-2011, 12:00 PM
Gullit was a big name.

If a big name is what you want that is the perfect example.
Last I saw, Sir Alex wasn't lining up for the TFC job, even though he had once considered emigrating to Canada.



Thats the thing.

I wonder how De Ro's hair would've held up to the hairdryer treatment at half time?

Suds
04-18-2011, 12:00 PM
Question.

On one side you have those preaching patience and on the other side you have others saying it's not working. The ones preaching patience... well they'll be patient, let the coach work the kinks out. But to those saying it's not working, what is the solution?

Complain on message boards!:rolleyes:

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:00 PM
Can you answer your own question? I'd like a detailed accounting of all the coaches in MLS history who failed, and their backgrounds, before I can tell if Kreis is the exception.


You're twisting it to try to get out of looking at it from the obvious point of view which is to simply ask the question, "how many Kreis's have there been?" If you really want to expand it, all you'd have to look at are coaches in MLS that have been relatively successful and realize most of them do not fit into the Kreis "mold".

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 12:01 PM
Question.

On one side you have those preaching patience and on the other side you have others saying it's not working. The ones preaching patience... well they'll be patient, let the coach work the kinks out. But to those saying it's not working, what is the solution?

Action, or more specifically reaction.

The coach has to adapt, his initial approach failed, he seriously needs to reevaluate. Games like Saturday cant be followed up with more of the same.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Question.

On one side you have those preaching patience and on the other side you have others saying it's not working. The ones preaching patience... well they'll be patient, let the coach work the kinks out. But to those saying it's not working, what is the solution?

You reply to a post that gave my point of view on that.

Even TFC themselves admit changing things from the foundation built in 2009 was a mistake. They should have built on top of the good things that did come out of the 2009 season for the 2010 season and instead blew it up completely. So what they did they do for 2011? Blew up what was good in 2010. They are not learning their lessons even if they pay lip service to it.

Waggy
04-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Question.

On one side you have those preaching patience and on the other side you have others saying it's not working. The ones preaching patience... well they'll be patient, let the coach work the kinks out. But to those saying it's not working, what is the solution?

Stop being smart damnit haha. I think the better question isn't what's the solution, it's what's the problem? Is it a fundamental flaw with the philosophy of trying to implement a specific style as opposed to assembling the best available players and fitting a style to them? Is it a flaw of the type of player's we're trying to put together? Is it purely a talent issue? Is it a coach's tactics issue? Is 'it' short term or long term? Have to define the question before it can be answered. Keeping in mind this regime is in no way shape or form responsible for anything before January 2011

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:04 PM
My position all along. Why are we not bringing in people to coach this team, who have a proven track record? Why are we always the new kid on the block's experiment?

Winter's 'system' is second hand experience that has never been implemented. Why are people so excited about this?

Why cant we just build a squad of players who are adept in this league and know what to expect? This seems to have worked for about 4 expansion teams that have arrived since us. Portland is kicking ass, Vancouver are looking very credible, Seattle has asserted itself from the start, Philadelphia are top of the conference and SJ made the playoffs and got the golden boot player last year.

Winter has come into this league determined to educate everybody in 'attractive football' and the other coaches are devising gameplans specifically to break his well advertised and predictable 'system' and doing it succesfully.

its bonkers Im telling you

AMEN!!!

Beach_Red
04-18-2011, 12:05 PM
He's not just changing the first team here. He's trying to implement a culture, a structure, an identity. this what takes time. We could try and opt for the quick fix but when said fix is gone we're almost back to where started. If Aron's legacy is that he helped create an academy that brings through players that can actually do the basics really well then I think it'll have helped both club and country for many years to come.

I don't think that's all he'll manage though. I do think this team is destined for a bigger and brighter future over the next few years if he can implement everything he envisions without interference from above and the stands.

Yes, this was never the mandate previously, there was no thought given to the "culture," or identity and certainly the resources weren't made available from the start.

This is now finally the expansion team (we should have been given shares instead of seasons tickets).

Of course, it may still be a legitmate question that if this is the mandate, why wasn't the job given to someone who accomplished this before. Why not just overpay someone who has already built a successful MLS team? Why not tamper with RSL and get Kries and give up some allocation money like Seattle did for Sgi?

rocker
04-18-2011, 12:05 PM
Portland is kicking ass, Vancouver are looking very credible, Seattle has asserted itself from the start, Philadelphia are top of the conference and SJ made the playoffs and got the golden boot player last year.

Your examples are inconsistent here.

I'm not sure I understand why you mention SJ and Philly, since neither of those teams had success in their first seasons under their current management.

I think Winter should be given the same time to figure things out that Philly and San Jose did.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:07 PM
Roogs, faith is believing in the absence of proof. That's part of being a fan of a club. Not 100% of the time and certainly not blindly, but if you don't have any even after a brand new coaching and management team was brought in... I understand the skepticism but demanding results 2.5 months in to a new regime isn't being 'a realist', it's just being negative. Mo is gone, the club started fresh as of January. We can't hold the Mo era against Winter. That's unfair to him, we can only judge Winter on what he has done since he's come on and what his goals and visions are. We got conned by Mo once, it doesn't mean we're getting conned again or constantly. It's like jilted lover syndrom. Just because your girlfriend cheated on you doesn't mean all girls are sluts etc. In the words of the marmut from Lion King (it's been a while), sometimes you just have to put the past behind you

This is where you are making a mistake about my position. I am not demanding results now...what I am telling you is I see little evidence that gives me hope for the future. If we lost the first 3 games of the season but I saw something that said that things will get better...well, maybe I'd be as hopeful as you. But the positive comments I see after games are eerily similar to comments made under the Preki regime and it's driving me crazy. Comments like "it's the first time I have seen them string 3 passes together"....really? I heard the same last year. Talk about low expectations. If that gives you hope then you are easily prone to flights of fancy.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:09 PM
Of course, it may still be a legitmate question that if this is the mandate, why wasn't the job given to someone who accomplished this before. Why not just overpay someone who has already built a successful MLS team? Why not tamper with RSL and get Kries and give up some allocation money like Seattle did for Sgi?


This is my thought.

I would have rather Toronto have gone for broke and tried to land Nicol than bring in someone with a famous name but that has never coached a senior side to any sort of success. I am still not sure why I am supposed to put faith in Winter or this sytem when neither has proven to be successful in MLS?

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 12:10 PM
The crazy thing about all this is that we are still allowing the team to determine for us our expectations. The team says they are rebuilding and we should be patient...so the fans give in for the most part. The team says wait and this new system will bring glory to TFC and the fans buy into it for the most part. Neither has any validity in my eyes. We already went through 4 horrible years...no other team has had to go through that. You have expansion teams that are competing night in and night out and we can't? Patience is reasonable when it is obviously required...not so in this case. TFC didn't get their act together in the offseason while other teams did. And people are forgetting that.

As for waiting for this future "glory" that this new system will bring us...what proof do we have that Winter and this new system will indeed prove to be successful? Is this not just another multi-year plan that we have been asked to buy into? Someone prove to me that this plan isn't going to blow up in our face just like the old plan did? Why aren't people more skeptical? What has Winter won as a coach that says I should put all my eggs in this basket?

There are absolutely no guarantees in the short term Roogs. At this point, it's all about (blind) faith and loyalty, because TFC is the only game in town for football enthusiasts. I believe the average attendance at BMO Field this season will illustrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that fans are already disenchanted with the organization because of the outrageous ticket prices combined with an abysmal product on the pitch.

The only sense of optimism I have for this season is based on the quality players that have been added to the roster, and we have already seen glimpses of their capabilities. With another quality addition at AM, this club should be able to improve and be competitive in the second half of the season. Unfortunately, a playoff spot could very well be out of reach at that point.

Long term, I am very excited at the prospects of a world class Academy complex becoming the backbone of this franchise for many years to come. The recent interview with Mariner and Winter was enlightening. The insinuation was that they felt the untapped talent pool available in the GTA and surrounding areas was better than what was typically available in the NCAA ranks. I believe that could very well be the case, at least in terms of providing solid MLS calibre players capable of playing in the starting lineup.

Nontheless, the next 1-2 years will be a true test of the resiliency of football fans in this market. If MLSE hopes to re establish interest in TFC while the club is in rebuilding mode, they must be willing to make concessions regarding ticket prices. Otherwise, the damage will be irreversible even if the club becomes a contender.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:13 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 12:14 PM
Your examples are inconsistent here.

I'm not sure I understand why you mention SJ and Philly, since neither of those teams had success in their first seasons under their current management.

I think Winter should be given the same time to figure things out that Philly and San Jose did.

Thats fine, Im used to being given time on any job. Its common to see people getting that time cut short when its obvious that they dont have a clue what theyre doing and theyre going to be a liability though.

Its not obvious with Winter yet, but its looking a bit dodgy right now.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:16 PM
^ Certainly no reason to be hailing him as TFC's saviour yet. How about at least having some guarded optimism as opposed to outright giddyness?

Gazza
04-18-2011, 12:16 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

Who's idea was it to promote Jason Bent? I think Winter and Mariner have acknowledged the work he's done with the kids. I don't see Winter getting any unnecessary credit for the work that's been done up till now. I just recognize that the kid's future is probably in better shape now than it ever was under Mo.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 12:16 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

No, I don't credit the new regime for that, the investment in the Academy is the only thing I give MLSE credit for...

billyfly
04-18-2011, 12:17 PM
Thats fine, Im used to being given time on any job. Its common to see people getting that time cut short when its obvious that they dont have a clue what theyre doing and theyre going to be a liability though.

Its not obvious with Winter yet, but its looking a bit dodgy right now.

Ian, you missed a great/horrible experience on Sat.

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 12:18 PM
No, I don't credit the new regime for that, the investment in the Academy is the only thing I give MLSE credit for...

As do I. One of the few things they have done right. And not surprisingly, Mo had little to do with that. In fact...I do believe Paul B had a major hand in that and should be given credit. Along with the staff like Jason Bent and his coaches...

Waggy
04-18-2011, 12:20 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

That's very true. And to illistrate the point, I say look at the University of Texas basketball team. The city of Toronto in the past year and a half has had 4 or 5 representatives in the Mcdonalds all american game. The U of T will be starting 4 Canadians next year, 3 from the GTA. A product of people who grew up with the Raps and basketball, and with the extra funding to the growth of the game they provided. The city of Toronto produces athletes. If TFC can tap into that there's no reason within a few years the academy won't be churning out players, some destined for MLS, some for greater leagues. What Winter has done that he should be credited for if it succeeds is the implementation of a consistent plan and style of play that runs from the academy to the pros. It sounds obvious but for some reason it doesn't really happen much. Burke has done a similar thing with the Marlies and the Leafs, which is one reason that the minor league players have had better adjustments to the pro's over the past year and a half or so. These players unlike most from North America will have grown up training for a european style of football. Which will make them more valuable (since they'll be more sought after by European clubs), and probably just BETTER. Better prepared to be pro soccer players, more intuitive players, more positionally aware etc. The academy is absolutely reason for optimism. But as I said already, we're years away from seeing the results. It took 15 years for the Raptors existence and efforts to show results, if we're lucky it'll take half that time for Toronto FC (just because of how much more soccer is played in Toronto than Basketball)


edit: and to get back to the point, in the interim we should be doing everything possible to pave the way for those future academy players. That means playing THEIR style of soccer. That means getting players with the same philosophy.

menefreghista
04-18-2011, 12:21 PM
The Academy debate is interesting, especially as on TFC twitter they have a quote by de Klerk saying "the Ajax youth development 'way of life' now coming to Toronto"

Playing right into the spin of some magical Dutch development model.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 12:21 PM
What did Klinsmann suggest.

'build a culture and identity that the people of Toronto will enjoy and call their own.'

I mean what the fuck does this mean? Go down the road, knock on the door of the dutch academy, ask them to hook you up with a few people who know a bit about clubs with cultures and identities and start writing articles about 'total football' and grass roots cultures?

Culture comes from history, history comes from winning. 'The Liverpool Way' for instance, wasnt really something that was talked about much before Shankly started winning shit. Winning came first, the 'way' was built around maintaing that winning system for years to come. This teams identity will be set by the first squad that has a good season and thats it.

I dont want to hear any more about attractive football and pre-canned cultures, I want to see some heart and soul on the pitch and a team thats ready to fight off its poor reputation.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 12:25 PM
I wasn't trying to be smart.

It was just a legit question.

If we're waiting to see how Winter reacts after Saturday's game isn't that akin to patience?

I don't know.

TFC gets a coach with MLS experience and that was a big failure.
TFC gets someone who wants to change the culture and things aren't looking so bright.

Everyone wants Nicol but last I checked, New England has the same record as TFC (playing very similar opponents) and if you look at their trajectory over the last few years has been similar or worse than Toronto's. In 2010 TFC finished ahead of New England and in 2009 New England finished 3 points ahead of Toronto.

If MLS experience is important, TFC should be tampering with Jason Kreis.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 12:26 PM
Ian, you missed a great/horrible experience on Sat.

I dont think I missed it at all.

Its Outrageous we'd drop three points at home in that kind of weather with that kind of resilient support rising above the wind and defying the empty seats.

The team is toothless and heartless as ever, its gotten boring now and the atmosphere in the stands cant make it acceptable.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I want to see some heart and soul on the pitch and a team thats ready to fight off its poor reputation.

This is it in a nutshell, which is why Saturday was unacceptable. The results in the win column may vary but we all have the right to demand a sincere effort night in and night out. If the players leave their blood, sweat, and tears on the pitch, I can live with the results, no matter what they are.

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I think winning cures everything.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 12:30 PM
I want to see some heart and soul on the pitch and a team thats ready to fight off its poor reputation.

I think this is all that people want.

The issue with Saturday's performance was the lack of response... especially after the Davies goal.

There was some after the red card... I want to see more of that.

I can live with - for the time being - guys that try but can't do it rather than guys who won't do it.

brad
04-18-2011, 12:43 PM
The Academy debate is interesting, especially as on TFC twitter they have a quote by de Klerk saying "the Ajax youth development 'way of life' now coming to Toronto"

Playing right into the spin of some magical Dutch development model.

Not to play pessimist, but running a youth academy with an eye to sell players can be a very profitable business. Especially if you can add "trained the Ajax way" to the bio.

Not implying that this is the case, but developing talent for TFC may not be the primary goal of the academy. Pretty sure that was the Whitecaps model (the development part, not the Ajax part)

Beach_Red
04-18-2011, 12:46 PM
I wasn't trying to be smart.

It was just a legit question.

If we're waiting to see how Winter reacts after Saturday's game isn't that akin to patience?

I don't know.

TFC gets a coach with MLS experience and that was a big failure.
TFC gets someone who wants to change the culture and things aren't looking so bright.

Everyone wants Nicol but last I checked, New England has the same record as TFC (playing very similar opponents) and if you look at their trajectory over the last few years has been similar or worse than Toronto's. In 2010 TFC finished ahead of New England and in 2009 New England finished 3 points ahead of Toronto.

If MLS experience is important, TFC should be tampering with Jason Kreis.

He didn't get a full season, did he? Did he have a full off-season to prepare?

It sounds familiar. It would be an awful mistake to repeat. MLSE don't usually make the same mistake twice.

Though I agree, they should have gone after Kreis - all Seattle had to give up for tampering with Sigi was some allocation. Pay the fine.

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 12:53 PM
Jose Mourinho?

My bad...really bad with the correct spelling of names so I tend to spell it the way it sounds....I guess

Mourinho tends to bring in players to suit his style of play.

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 01:23 PM
Just a reminder, this thread is about tactics, and how a switch in tactics could solve the short-term issue. Here's the initial post as a reminder:


Mod: Please don't move this into the post-game forum. It's a perspective based on several games, not just the latest.


TFC's "slow start" issue is not really a slow start issue -- it's a consequence of a bad tactical choice: to play "build from the back" early in the game in MLS.

MLS is a direct league, where quick pressure on the ball and athleticism and valued above technique and movement. In the early portion of a game, when an opponent's energy is highest, our "build from the back" is intensely vulnerable to full-field pressure, because our opponent is more interested in creating an error than maintaining team shape.

It would make more sense for us to play direct until the initial burst of energy that typifies the start of a game is done and the game has settled down somewhat. After about 20-30 minutes, we switch to the controlled possession game and force them to chase.

The same rule would apply in the second half.

This actually suits us better than simply playing possession as we have two highly technically skilled wingers who are able to bring down a ball in direct play and take a defender on one-one-one, as opposed to just being a component of the short-build-up play that's integral to "total" football.

In essence, I believe we're paying the price for not being tactically aware of how the game is played in MLS. Our stats from yesterday somewhat bear that out, with TFC outshooting DC 13-7 and having 54% of the ball, but giving up all three goals to rear pressure.

If you want to discuss whether or not team/coach is bad, etc. that's not for this thread. If you want to discuss different tactical ideas, this thread is custom-made for you.

:topic:

ryan
04-18-2011, 01:31 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

...just like Winter is taking heat and getting no support from some just for the previous 4 years of Mo.

:drinking:

Roogsy
04-18-2011, 01:35 PM
What did Klinsmann suggest.

'build a culture and identity that the people of Toronto will enjoy and call their own.'

I mean what the fuck does this mean? Go down the road, knock on the door of the dutch academy, ask them to hook you up with a few people who know a bit about clubs with cultures and identities and start writing articles about 'total football' and grass roots cultures?

Culture comes from history, history comes from winning. 'The Liverpool Way' for instance, wasnt really something that was talked about much before Shankly started winning shit. Winning came first, the 'way' was built around maintaing that winning system for years to come. This teams identity will be set by the first squad that has a good season and thats it.

I dont want to hear any more about attractive football and pre-canned cultures, I want to see some heart and soul on the pitch and a team thats ready to fight off its poor reputation.


Damn brother...you and me are drinking the same brew...

trane
04-18-2011, 01:44 PM
It comes down to skill level,not the size of the pitch.
Defenders in Europe have respect from opponent midfielders and forwards,they know they can not charge like 12 years old kids,or MLS players in our case.Why?
Tactic,team shape,composure and respect because at the end midfielder or forward will make him look stupid with a nice move and let him miss the ball and player.

.


That is exactly the point that I was making, I left europe a month after I turned fifteen, so any competitive football I played was done with at that age, and yet even at that age, as defenders we learned not to just go out and press but keep shape and keep position, not to give space and to be burned. On the other hand even at that age, as a team once we were up, were able to knock the ball around well, relatively speaking, to keep posession and keep the lead. We called in Melina, it was almost a game to intslef, and we practiced it with the official school team, and by oursleves. It was simple, move to be available, make the simple pass, but still stay in your position in the shape. Those who know me know I am not a good player, but at that age, we played enough to have those simple things down as a team, and despite lack of tallent by some, like me, we could be effecitve with a simple but basic skill set.

This is both while the MLS upset me, and I have hope, that if we simplify and work as a team, we can work many issues out.

Wull
04-18-2011, 01:48 PM
I think we need to try 2 holding midfielders for a while to see if that can give more cover to a somewhat shaky back line

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 01:58 PM
We had a culture of player cliques and inmates running the asylum with interference from upstairs to boot. I haven't heard anything about that since they came in and I view that as a positive change to the culture.

Any unhappy player has been dealt with swiftly and unequivocally, that's a culture change. He's tried to create more of a sanctuary out of the locker room and been rebuffed by the league, he shielded the players in training when the Dero story was about to break. That's as much to do with culture change as the bootroom or school of science

This post, as well as Exiled's post have nothing to do with tactics. Please go back on topic, please. Thank-you.

menefreghista
04-18-2011, 02:01 PM
This post, as well as Exiled's post have nothing to do with tactics. Please go back on topic, please. Thank-you.

Threads go off topic all the time.

Is it really necessary to be a nazi about it? Especially when the discussing is civil?

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 02:10 PM
This post, as well as Exiled's post have nothing to do with tactics. Please go back on topic, please. Thank-you.

That's cheap, and you wouldnt bother if it wasnt me.

The posts concerning winter's competence, are directly related to his tactical choices on the pitch.

My post is highly relevant to Winter's decision to flog the 4-3-3 despite the lack of player acumen, and his failure to recognise that the other coaches arent stupid and have already adapted to him.

I perceive that he is approaching every game as a new opportunity to try stuff out, regardless of the opposition or importance of the match, He doesnt seem to be adjusting his tactics based on the teams and players he is facing, likely because hes underestimated them like Carver did. Of course, if you dont know shit about the teams and players you are facing you dont really have much option other than to just 'stick to the plan and hope for the best.'

denime
04-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Something else that I have noticed lately in these parts is this newfound faith in the Academy...the funny thing is I thought the Academy was actually doing quite well and was one of the bright spots of the previous TFC regime regardless of what happened to the senior team. What exactly is Winter going to do with the Academy that wasn't being done before? At this point, the academy is successful and any future success will be unfairly laid at Winter's feet. I'd rather give credit to the staff that have been there developing these kids before Winter even arrived.

Roogsy,kids in TFC Academy were already developed by the youth clubs ,before they came to TFC,TFC just did some fine tuning,nothing else.If someone should get the credit is Erin Mills Youth club since more than 10 kids from that club are in TFC academy.
As far what's changed comparing to old regime,almost everything.Diuchio was talking about new program few weeks ago when he took over and he was really happy with it.All teams academy teams will play same system(4-3-3),but the practices itself are different,focus is on individual skill,because like he said sooner or later you will find yourself under pressure and be forced to play 1v1 ,if you can't win that you can't play this game.

And this bring us back to our problem,all North American players are trained to boot the ball when under pressure since they were kids,god forbid you try something, lose the ball and other team scores,you will hear it from the coach and your parents for the rest of the month,so to play safe kid boots the ball and everybody is happy.

denime
04-18-2011, 02:34 PM
Threads go off topic all the time.

Is it really necessary to be a nazi about it? Especially when the discussing is civil?
Sometimes yes it is necessary to be a nazi about it.

menefreghista
04-18-2011, 02:36 PM
Sometimes yes it is necessary to be a nazi about it.

I meant in this situation. Which is obvious it doesn't.

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 02:36 PM
Its not just you two (Exiled and wull), no need for paranoia. If you look at the first two pages of this thread, you'll see that this thread was about tactics. It's quite disappointing to have it degenerate into a duplicate of the post-game rant. However, if a polite request won't suffice... you guys continue discussing whatever this thread has become. Those who love discussing tactics will check out.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 02:42 PM
But isn't that what the tactics forum is for?

Oldtimer
04-18-2011, 02:43 PM
So tactics can't be discussed outside of that forum?


What a thoughtful and useful thread this is.

It's refreshing to read. page 2.

ExiledRed
04-18-2011, 03:43 PM
So why not just let discussion evolve instead of making the thread all about you?

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 03:54 PM
I just came on here to talk about the issues with TFC's tactics....

Jack
04-18-2011, 03:55 PM
I think the tactics and subjects related to them (such as the Saturday performance and the culture surrounding the team) are a sort of natural progression to the discussion.

In a certain sense, the culture and the structure of the club form a part of the manager's tactics, just not the on-field ones. We have seen Winter's tactics torn apart due to poor execution. There are two schools of thought and both are valid. Tear it up and try something else or stay the course and keep at it until they get it, or until you get players who can.

Which one is the valid route?

trane
04-18-2011, 04:02 PM
^ That is it. But the present manager has decided to keep on trying to impelemnt a system he believes in, and I think that it is a logical choice, not the only one admitatley, and it shuold be pursued, untill that moment if it comes, when it is clear that it will not and cannot work in this league and/or for this team.

Dreadlocks
04-18-2011, 04:04 PM
I think the tactics and subjects related to them (such as the Saturday performance and the culture surrounding the team) are a sort of natural progression to the discussion.

In a certain sense, the culture and the structure of the club form a part of the manager's tactics, just not the on-field ones. We have seen Winter's tactics torn apart due to poor execution. There are two schools of thought and both are valid. Tear it up and try something else or stay the course and keep at it until they get it, or until you get players who can.

Which one is the valid route?

I don't think tearing things apart 5 games in makes any sense. To me we have looked bad as of late but you don't get better at anything until you practice. Sure you can argue that we don't have the players but at the end of the day everyone who has ever played was taught that the ball moves faster than any player. That said, any person on a professional roster should know how to pass, look to move into the open space and to open passing lanes. The team just needs to work on getting in better positions to take advantage of the balls speed.

Jack
04-18-2011, 04:06 PM
I tend to fall on the side that he should stay the course. Teach the players what he can, get replacements for those who can't play it and make his tweaks to the system as he learns more about the league. He should also be watching as much MLS footage as he can get his hands on.

trane
04-18-2011, 04:08 PM
Agreed.

brad
04-18-2011, 04:11 PM
In a certain sense, the culture and the structure of the club form a part of the manager's tactics, just not the on-field ones. We have seen Winter's tactics torn apart due to poor execution. There are two schools of thought and both are valid. Tear it up and try something else or stay the course and keep at it until they get it, or until you get players who can.

Which one is the valid route?

I'm not sure the correct answer is, but it really depends on how close Winter thinks he is to getting this system to be at least workable. Whether that means getting the players we have adjusted to it enough to be serviceable, or cycling the ones that can't play it out.

I don't think this team can absorb to many more performances like the DC one

There is a very real danger IMHO of team morale on being destroyed if this continues.

Dub Narcotic
04-18-2011, 04:12 PM
I must be missing a logical step in these arguments. I am sure the criticisms of NA soccer development have some validity but TFC barely plays anyone from the NA development ranks. JDG learned how to play in Europe, the front 3 for the last few games have been two Europeans (who are all soccer tactical geniuses , according to this thread) and a Brazilian, so there are only two or three players on the field who are NA-trained if you do not count Frei. Bad players are just bad players, and inflexible tactics are not going to work in any league.

It is instructive to watch some Whitecaps or other MLS games to see the variety of styles in the league. Broad generalizations about MLS based on the poor teams TFC puts out are just silly.

Jack
04-18-2011, 04:14 PM
I mean, do we really want Winter to build his system around guys like Ty Harden and Dan Gargan?

I don't pretend we'll have a skillful player in every spot on the pitch, but there has to be more to it than these guys. I mean, we gave away Sam Cronin for allocation and his ball movement and ball winning would sure slot in a lot better than Peterson or Gargan. The players are out there, it's just a matter of getting them in here, which doesn't happen at the wave of a magic wand.

69Chevy396
04-18-2011, 04:26 PM
Somebody here mentioned adding a second holding mid. I am not sure if it would work, but why not move JDG to central defender, using 5 at the back, and playing Santos just ahead of him, as central attacking midfielder. Seems to me that while JDG has done nothing offensively, his control of the ball in close quarters is very good, isn't he the type of player who could best help at the back right now? He could move the ball quicker and more efficiently than any of the four defenders currently playing.

trane
04-18-2011, 06:17 PM
^JDG is too small to play as a central defender, by the way we are playing with two holding mids. JDG and that new kid from New York.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 06:29 PM
Oldtimer - you'd love the Leafs thread.

denime
04-18-2011, 06:40 PM
I must be missing a logical step in these arguments. I am sure the criticisms of NA soccer development have some validity but TFC barely plays anyone from the NA development ranks. JDG learned how to play in Europe, the front 3 for the last few games have been two Europeans (who are all soccer tactical geniuses , according to this thread) and a Brazilian, so there are only two or three players on the field who are NA-trained if you do not count Frei. Bad players are just bad players, and inflexible tactics are not going to work in any league.

It is instructive to watch some Whitecaps or other MLS games to see the variety of styles in the league. Broad generalizations about MLS based on the poor teams TFC puts out are just silly.

and jet we don't have problems up front or middle we have a huge problem at the back.

Our back 4 are the problem in this team and guess were they learned to play soccer?

Gargan,Harden,Cann,Atakora,Peterson

Waggy
04-18-2011, 11:09 PM
I dunno Oldtimer. To me tactics and overall philosophy are one and the same like Jack said. It's hard to separate the 2.

To go back to Johns original post- it's an interesting observation. I'm definitely going to pay a bit more attention to that this week and see if I can see anything. The fact of the matter is TFC should be playing possession football most of the time simply because our D can't absorb much pressure. But I still don't like the idea of kicking it long to look for holes. Like Keemo said a few pages ago, guys getting into positions where they can receive a pass, make a run and outletting to other mids and forwards who also were moving into position to properly receive a pass and have a bit of space/a few options. Run a proper counter attack to keep possession. At least if possession's lost the other team is retreating already, they've lost their momentum and positions. I really feel like punting the ball downfield is just an invitation for the other team to stay on the offensive. As is stacking the backline or falling into a 1-5-4. We need to try and control the ball in the middle of the field, if we can get offense out of it great, but the bigger thing is just preventing the other team from attacking our backline. It's all just intelligent movement and passing. This is where JDG needs to shine- he needs to be the quarterback distributing the ball when the d gains possession. That's why he's paid the big bucks.

Oldtimer
04-19-2011, 07:32 AM
I dunno Oldtimer. To me tactics and overall philosophy are one and the same like Jack said. It's hard to separate the 2.



I'm agreed as far as that goes. Anyways, it was just a polite reminder for people to stay on track... I can't see why anyone would be upset about that.

The problem with fitting guys like Gargan into a system like Winter's is that mis-communication is punished much more severely when your backline is being pressed.

I think that they had the right idea on how to tactically handle this with the Timbers match: when they push too hard and forward on your backline, keep them "honest" by an occasional long-ball. This can work anytime during a match, it doesn't have to be during the first 30 minutes, say. Your opponents are then forced to relieve some of the pressure by holding back somewhat.

You would need to have your wingers press forward occasionally. Alternately, you could play more a 4-3-2-1 formation if you have someone like Gordon up front.

Wull
04-19-2011, 07:32 AM
^JDG is too small to play as a central defender, by the way we are playing with two holding mids. JDG and that new kid from New York.

Tchani's already said he's playing a more forward role than he was in NY due to JDG being the DM. If one of the FBs is bombing forward to put in a cross, one of them could slip over as defensive cover while the other makes sure the back 4 aren't exposed but it's not happening at the moment

trane
04-19-2011, 09:48 AM
^ I thought that was what was supposed to be happening, just by the way the line up 4-2-1-2-1.

Wull
04-19-2011, 10:04 AM
^ I thought that was what was supposed to be happening, just by the way the line up 4-2-1-2-1.


Apparently Tchani has other orders

trane
04-19-2011, 10:08 AM
^ I did see him come up quite a bit in the second half, on Saturday, althought JDG was pushing up quite a bit too, but we were one man and two goals down. .

Wull
04-19-2011, 10:35 AM
^ I did see him come up quite a bit in the second half, on Saturday, althought JDG was pushing up quite a bit too, but we were one man and two goals down. .

I actually read a quote from him somewhere saying he was now to push forward more than he did at NY. Whether that's to do with the entire formation or not could be the case but I took it to mean we were playing one holding midfielder

jloome
04-19-2011, 11:28 AM
I actually read a quote from him somewhere saying he was now to push forward more than he did at NY. Whether that's to do with the entire formation or not could be the case but I took it to mean we were playing one holding midfielder

No, it means they play two ways, but both start deeper. We're playing two holders, but they alternate staying forward and going back based on the positioning of other players in the offensive move.

Dreadlocks
04-20-2011, 11:07 AM
The problem with the team is that we have no attacking midfielder that shows for the defensive mids - and our wingers don't show enough either. Stevanovic does this a little but tends to hold the ball for too long. Perhaps he wouldn't if there was an attacking mid available to pass to.

When your wingers and attacking mid don't show for the ball it leaves the defenders and the holding mids to pass the ball back and forth causing turnovers - see DC's second goal.

Santos is a great player but he seems to not be the same since being put in the attacking mid role. I think he's best suited to be running at the defense in an advanced position and not showing for the ball in the midfield.

Roogsy
04-20-2011, 11:22 AM
The problem with the team is that we have no attacking midfielder that shows for the defensive mids


Well....we had one but decided to go without. ;)

Wull
04-20-2011, 11:27 AM
Well....we had one but decided to go without. ;)
Who had 15 minutes in the DeRo sweepstakes?! :p

rocker
04-20-2011, 12:40 PM
De Ro showed... for his banker.

Dreadlocks
04-20-2011, 02:46 PM
Well....we had one but decided to go without. ;)

I think I know of the player you are referring to but the point of my post was not to lament about his departure. I was simply pointing out a need or an issue from a tactical standpoint.

Even if that player was still here, our wingers still need to show a lot more. Martina in particular literally stood and waited for the ball to come to him against DC. I know he wants to be running forward when he gets the ball but coming back for it and linking with the mids will open up a give and go. Basic football imo!

Don't worry Roogsy, I miss the guy too and I'm disappointed that things didn't turn out differently - he was my favorite to watch by far and will go down as one of the greatest to play in the MLS EVER!

Jack
04-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Well....we had one but decided to go without. ;)

I wouldn't classify him as a 2-way attacking mid in our system, more of a deep-lying forward. In a 4-3-3, the offensive mid still has considerable defensive responsibilities.

trane
04-20-2011, 03:04 PM
^ True, probably the source of some of the differences between him and Winter.

Roogsy
04-20-2011, 03:17 PM
^ True, probably the source of some of the differences between him and Winter.

Actually, not start up another conversation on him because I'm done with that, but there weren't any problems on the pitch. Everything that led to his departure had to do with the stuff off the pitch.

DangerRed
04-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Actually, not start up another conversation on him because I'm done with that, but there weren't any problems on the pitch. Everything that led to his departure had to do with the stuff off the pitch.

Very true.

Wull
04-20-2011, 03:42 PM
Actually, not start up another conversation on him because I'm done with that, but there weren't any problems on the pitch. Everything that led to his departure had to do with the stuff off the pitch.

Indeed, Aron even tried to get him a raise and let him keep the captaincy. He also looked pretty good in our first 2 games

trane
04-20-2011, 03:42 PM
Actually, not start up another conversation on him because I'm done with that, but there weren't any problems on the pitch. Everything that led to his departure had to do with the stuff off the pitch.


I will accept your expert opinion on the subject. ;)