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View Full Version : Garber talks about refs' inconsistencies



DichioTFC
04-15-2011, 04:10 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/garber-address-recent-rancor-over-referees

Interesting article. Lots of credit to Beckham on this one, it had to be addressed.

pekduck
04-15-2011, 04:13 PM
Garber didn't address the key problem. It's about consistency (or competency). The non-called fouls, and called non-fouls. The non-called offside/handballs and called onside/non-handballs.

Garber turned it into a card issue.

DichioTFC
04-15-2011, 04:18 PM
I agree, but in Garber's defense, there's only so much he can complain about. He's not hiring the refs, the refs are hired by US Soccer and the CSA.

I would like to see some NCAA refs get promoted to the MLS. Some refs in the NCAA can call a game with greater objectivity than the MLS refs.

Stugatzo
04-15-2011, 04:26 PM
interesting how it's only an issue when Beckham will be missing a game and probably pissing off Chicago fans and team owners.

JonO
04-15-2011, 04:31 PM
Ironically (at least from my vantage point - I haven't seen any replays), the Beckham yellow looked deserved...

ryan
04-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Ironically (at least from my vantage point - I haven't seen any replays), the Beckham yellow looked deserved...

Yep I agree. It was late and a bit dangerous to boot.

CretanBull
04-15-2011, 05:14 PM
Ironically (at least from my vantage point - I haven't seen any replays), the Beckham yellow looked deserved...

There's no doubt that was a yellow, but I didn't see any of the four that led up to that or if he'd done anything similiar to that tackle and not been carded...more than anything, players want consistancy.

JonO
04-15-2011, 05:39 PM
^ Agree 100% - Consistency in this league is non-existant.

sulfur
04-15-2011, 09:03 PM
I've seen 3 of his yellows. The one in the weekend game should've been a red. Wednesday's? Definite yellow. The other was not a yellow.

Maltese Falcon
04-15-2011, 10:34 PM
MLS refs make some games unbearable...its an issue that the league has to sort out. Even early in the first half against LA, Stevanovic got taken out from behind and led to Barrett's chance that hit the post, could have cost us the game. Maicon Santos' "offside" cost us a win against Chivas. There's always missed calls in every game but its super frustrating in games when refs call EVERYTHING but fail to call blatant fouls. Becks tackle probably deserved a yellow, but I don't remember it being extremely dangerous.

I think mls has to establish its own identity as a league decide what it wants to be and officiate according to that. It is a fast/physical league but I find its rarely allowed to be played as that, there are too many officiating styles and differences from game to game.

iansmcl
04-15-2011, 11:25 PM
Can't find replays of his other hard foul from Wednesday's game (I think it was in the first half) but at the time I thought it was cardable, which would've given him a red... It was actually a similar challenge to the one he was carded for later in the game.

Consistency is the key.

DangerRed
04-15-2011, 11:50 PM
I beg to disagree. Consistency is not the key. Consistency is the problem, if what you're being consistent about is enforcement of incorrect or game-ruining rules.

The Laws aren't being applied inconsistently in MLS. They are being applied incorrectly. Big difference.

Garber's also being dishonest when he says this issue has cropped up just recently in the last few weeks. Here's a fun exercise: take the card stats of Vaughn and Toledo and compare them against any ref in any major league in the world. To say that these two are card-happy is a HUGE understatement.

There needs to be quality control and international training provided to these guys. They have next to no accountability and it's killing fairness in this league.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
04-16-2011, 12:43 AM
Baldomero Toledo sacking this piece of shit would be a great start.....and surely would mean they are serious about cleaning up in MLS!:hump:

ExiledRed
04-16-2011, 01:04 AM
Kenny Cooper scored Portland's first home goal, and was bizarrely called offside like way too many clean goals are.
Can you imagine if Dichio's goal had been randmly called off-side by some amateur ref with his own agenda?

colman1860
04-16-2011, 02:55 AM
While it's easy to call for consistency as a fan, it doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it. Referees, like players, all have their own, unique style. In the USSF, there are 12 referee grades. As you move up through these grades (MLS assigns only to 2s and 1s), you learn from your on-field experiences in thousands of games (yes, thousands. It takes about a decade of refereeing around 150 games a year to reach this level). Once you've passed through the lower levels, everybody has a pretty uniform understanding of Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct). The other laws have been internalized earlier than this.

What separates an MLS referee from an above-average high school referee is game management. This refers primarily to how you handle discipline. Many referees feel more comfortable engaging with the players and letting them know where they stand after a foul, while others are faster to go to the plastic (both to ensure that the offending player will be wary of fouling again, and to draw a clear line in the sand to other players). Both strategies can be effective or ineffective, depending on the nature of the individual players, the atmosphere/time/score/importance of the game, previous experience the referee has had with one of/both of the teams, etc. Finding the balance between lenience and cards on a consistent basis, and being able to change this strategy from game to game confidently, is what separates great referees from merely competent ones.

Since referees spend so much time in their career trying to find this on-field strategy (or personality) that works for them, it is almost impossible to ask everybody to conform to the same style once they've reached the peak of the game.

This is not unlike players or coaches - DeRo will never become a tackler like Saric, because that's not what made him a professional player. While it is frustrating for players to have to adapt to different refereeing styles every game, it cannot be expected of referees to be uniform across the league.

Referees know that different players respond to different styles - Roy Keane probably needed to see a card for his first hard tackle in a game to reign him in, while a stern talking to will often be enough with other players. If we ask referees to adapt from player to player, we can ask the same of players the other way around.

For anybody who's interested in learning more about the game management side of refereeing, check out one of my favourite blogs at http://www.refblog.com/

Sorry to everybody who saw this and said tl;dr, and thanks to everybody who read anyways :D

colman1860
04-16-2011, 03:29 AM
Here's a fun exercise: take the card stats of Vaughn and Toledo and compare them against any ref in any major league in the world. To say that these two are card-happy is a HUGE understatement.


I decided to have some fun, and try out your exercise.

Terry Vaughn (2010): 15 games, 2.93 yellow cards (total of 44), 0.13 red cards (total of 2)

Baldomero Toledo (2010): 17 games, 2.53 yellow cards (total of 43), 0.18 red cards (total of 3)

Using yellow cards as a barometer for card-happiness, this puts Vaughn and Toledo at 7th and 8th in MLS, respectively.

I compared them to elite referees around the world.

Howard Webb (2009/10): 28 games, 3.61 yellow cards (total of 101), 0 red cards (three second yellows, but since those are already represented in the 101 yellow cards we'll leave them out of the exercise)

Peter Gagelmann (2009/10): 16 games, 4.56 yellow cards (total of 73), 0.06 red cards (total of 1)
(In case you're not familiar with Gagelmann, he is a Bundesliga referee who has been used in the Champions League knockout stages consistently over the past few seasons)

Mejuto Gonzales (2009/10): 18 games, 4.78 yellow cards (total of 86), 0.11 red cards (total of 2)
(Gonzales is a now retired Spanish referee, who has refereed all significant international competitions (World Cup, Euro, Champions League, UEFA Cup) and spent his career in the Primera Division)

All stats from www.transfermarkt.de

I've bolded the yellow cards/game, as they're really the most telling about how "card-happy" a referee is (there aren't enough red cards to be statistically significant).

In conclusion - you're right (though not in the way you intended). It was a hell of a lot of fun doing your exercise.

RicoSuave44
04-16-2011, 05:28 AM
Personally didn't think Becks deserved a yellow card. He had enough meaning and merit in the challenge that it cancels out the behindness and class that he laid it down on. Letter of the law take a seat on that one, we'd expect it for us!

ag futbol
04-16-2011, 01:31 PM
While it's easy to call for consistency as a fan, it doesn't make all that much sense when you think about it. Referees, like players, all have their own, unique style. In the USSF, there are 12 referee grades. As you move up through these grades (MLS assigns only to 2s and 1s), you learn from your on-field experiences in thousands of games (yes, thousands. It takes about a decade of refereeing around 150 games a year to reach this level). Once you've passed through the lower levels, everybody has a pretty uniform understanding of Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct). The other laws have been internalized earlier than this.
Yeah ... that sounds incredibly bureaucratic as opposed to allowing the best performers to rise to the top.

As for game management, this is probably where MLS refs are the worst. The way they see and feel the game really just doesn't mesh with what is going on. Maybe you can put that down to a lack of a ladder they can work up in order to get to the professional level but you can understand the discontent coming from players / fans. The way they interpret the game is very "men's league". They have to swallow their pride a bit and realize they have to justify their decisions more than they would if Bob's Building Supplies was playing Halifax King of Donair.

Auzzy
04-16-2011, 01:51 PM
Kenny Cooper scored Portland's first home goal, and was bizarrely called offside like way too many clean goals are.
Can you imagine if Dichio's goal had been randmly called off-side by some amateur ref with his own agenda?

I thought Portland's first goal was called off because the ball supposedly swerved over the line off the corner kick -- which it didn't, so that was also a very bad call. Luckily Portland scored a few more.

Alixir
04-16-2011, 02:00 PM
Personally didn't think Becks deserved a yellow card. He had enough meaning and merit in the challenge that it cancels out the behindness and class that he laid it down on. Letter of the law take a seat on that one, we'd expect it for us!he was still late in the tackle and it was dangerous. Yellow deserved in my opinion.

ag futbol
04-16-2011, 02:04 PM
I thought Portland's first goal was called off because the ball supposedly swerved over the line off the corner kick -- which it didn't, so that was also a very bad call. Luckily Portland scored a few more.
I will say though as strange as that call is ... it's one you see officials elsewhere blow it all the time as well. Keeper legitimately loses the challenge when he comes out for the ball but it's blown down for a foul.

swan
04-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Kenny Cooper scored Portland's first home goal, and was bizarrely called offside like way too many clean goals are.
Can you imagine if Dichio's goal had been randmly called off-side by some amateur ref with his own agenda?

was it called offside or a foul i thought it was called a foul that wasn't a foul..

but anyway crappy calling anyway..

colman1860
04-16-2011, 02:51 PM
Yeah ... that sounds incredibly bureaucratic as opposed to allowing the best performers to rise to the top.

As for game management, this is probably where MLS refs are the worst. The way they see and feel the game really just doesn't mesh with what is going on. Maybe you can put that down to a lack of a ladder they can work up in order to get to the professional level but you can understand the discontent coming from players / fans. The way they interpret the game is very "men's league". They have to swallow their pride a bit and realize they have to justify their decisions more than they would if Bob's Building Supplies was playing Halifax King of Donair.

The 12 grades are exactly what this "ladder refers to". When you start off refereeing, you're a 12 - once you've been doing it for years and years and have had strong assessments consistently and passed all your law and fitness exams etc., you're a 1. I wouldn't say that's bureaucratic, that's the only way to do it.

Oldtimer
04-16-2011, 03:58 PM
It's wrong to take just a statistic like the number of yellow cards per game.

Every league is different, some more violent than others. Every game is different. What matters is the context. Was the referee ensuring that the game flowed well but fairly? Or did he impose himself on the game, making his own mark? If the latter, he is a crap referee, and Toledo is crap.

James17930
04-16-2011, 04:05 PM
I decided to have some fun, and try out your exercise.

Terry Vaughn (2010): 15 games, 2.93 yellow cards (total of 44), 0.13 red cards (total of 2)

Baldomero Toledo (2010): 17 games, 2.53 yellow cards (total of 43), 0.18 red cards (total of 3)

Using yellow cards as a barometer for card-happiness, this puts Vaughn and Toledo at 7th and 8th in MLS, respectively.

I compared them to elite referees around the world.

Howard Webb (2009/10): 28 games, 3.61 yellow cards (total of 101), 0 red cards (three second yellows, but since those are already represented in the 101 yellow cards we'll leave them out of the exercise)

Peter Gagelmann (2009/10): 16 games, 4.56 yellow cards (total of 73), 0.06 red cards (total of 1)
(In case you're not familiar with Gagelmann, he is a Bundesliga referee who has been used in the Champions League knockout stages consistently over the past few seasons)

Mejuto Gonzales (2009/10): 18 games, 4.78 yellow cards (total of 86), 0.11 red cards (total of 2)
(Gonzales is a now retired Spanish referee, who has refereed all significant international competitions (World Cup, Euro, Champions League, UEFA Cup) and spent his career in the Primera Division)

All stats from www.transfermarkt.de (http://www.transfermarkt.de)

I've bolded the yellow cards/game, as they're really the most telling about how "card-happy" a referee is (there aren't enough red cards to be statistically significant).

In conclusion - you're right (though not in the way you intended). It was a hell of a lot of fun doing your exercise.

Great job -- very interesting.

Maybe it only seems more pronounced because there were always less teams, and so less games, in MLS.

Now that we have 18 teams and a fully-fledged 34 game schedule, it will perhaps not seem so flagrant when the refs pull out cards.

Kooper
04-16-2011, 04:08 PM
^ Agree 100% - Consistency in this league is non-existant.

The consistency is mostly due the lack of ability of the refs. The MLS should arrange for clinics with top international refs. If they brough in Pier Luigi Collina for a week's training then we would start to see an improvement.

The other option would be to see if we could send some of our refs to observe or serve as linesmen in the second tier of the European leagues. That way they could get more games in at a higher level.

jabbronies
04-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Could the inconsistancies we are seeing be due to the numeous nationalities that the ref's represent?

For example A Spanish ref who was brought up with that style of footballl would call more fouls for a physical game, whereas an English ref would call less in the same game?

Maltese Falcon
04-16-2011, 04:50 PM
Could the inconsistancies we are seeing be due to the numeous nationalities that the ref's represent?

For example A Spanish ref who was brought up with that style of footballl would call more fouls for a physical game, whereas an English ref would call less in the same game?
Ya I agree and it kind of relates to my comment about establishing what the mls wants its league to be. Find the model of how you want your league to be officiated and dictate that to the refs, not the other way around. Develop an identity set the standards and express to the refs what you want to see. If you want the game to be fast and physical, don't call them game like a Sunday afternoon Seire A match.

TFCRegina
04-18-2011, 11:31 AM
USSF needs to invest in some Designated Referees from England.

C.Ronaldo
04-18-2011, 11:46 AM
sign some DRs?

i like it, will it fill the seats though?

rocker
04-18-2011, 12:08 PM
USSF needs to invest in some Designated Referees from England.

Howard Webb once reffed a match between MLS teams.. I think it might have been a US Open Cup game but I forget exactly. It was wonderful.

Gazza
04-18-2011, 12:10 PM
Howard Webb once reffed a match between MLS teams.. I think it might have been a US Open Cup game but I forget exactly. It was wonderful.


I'm not even much of a Howard Webb fan, but that would be heaven compared to what we have to deal with on a game by game basis in the MLS.

rocker
04-18-2011, 12:17 PM
I'm not even much of a Howard Webb fan, but that would be heaven compared to what we have to deal with on a game by game basis in the MLS.

He had such great authority that players hardly complained about any of his calls. Very consistent and bang on.

These guys don't work in the summer. Maybe they could get them over for a working holiday.