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jloome
04-11-2011, 02:50 PM
http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2011/04/sbi-mls-power-rankings-week-4.html


So Ives thinks we're still 16th. Guess this week didn't count.

Pigfynn
04-11-2011, 02:53 PM
Dude is a biased doucher.

Pachuco
04-11-2011, 02:57 PM
I personally can't think of any other team I would put below us though. San Jose is the first good game we've played in my opinion. Need to do that for a couple of weeks before I have faith that we won't end up in that spot.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 02:58 PM
Vancouver lose 3-1 to Houston and drop one place from 9 to 10; Houston jumps 5, from 14 to 9... yeah that makes sense.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 02:59 PM
I personally can't think of any other team I would put below us though. San Jose is the first good game we've played in my opinion. Need to do that for a couple of weeks before I have faith that we won't end up in that spot.

Vancouver. Chivas. Portland. New England.

Roogsy
04-11-2011, 03:01 PM
Dude is a biased doucher.

Why is he biased? Is there some lack of rationale in his rankings?

Where would you put us?

Pachuco
04-11-2011, 03:04 PM
Vancouver. Chivas. Portland. New England.

Whatever, I couldn't disagree with you more that Vancouver and NE deserve to be ahead of us. I won't even bring up the massacre TFC experienced in Vancouver.

BTW Vancouver losing to Houston away from home 3-1 is pretty expected. It's not like they were favorites or something.

But anyway, this doesn't look biased to me at all. Even if you disagree about 1 or 2 places you'll always have people who disagree.

ManUtd4ever
04-11-2011, 03:09 PM
The rankings are so subjective at this point in the season that it doesn't warrant much validity. There is so much parity in the league that the rankings could change dramatically on a weekly basis. I don't think there is a substantial gap in talent between the clubs ranked 8th-18th for example.

I watched the TFC game and the Vancouver game this past weekend, and if I was to judge those results, it would seem ludicrous to rank Vancouver 10th and TFC 16th. The point being, it's too early to tell based on the games that have been played.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:10 PM
Whatever, I couldn't disagree with you more that Vancouver and NE deserve to be ahead of us. I won't even bring up the massacre TFC experienced in Vancouver.

BTW Vancouver losing to Houston away from home 3-1 is pretty expected. It's not like they were favorites or something.

But anyway, this doesn't look biased to me at all. Even if you disagree about 1 or 2 places you'll always have people who disagree.

Vancouver are overrated. They're better than we were in years one and two, but they're no Seattle. We'll see how their depth holds up without Demerit, Dunfield and Hassli. I predict a mid-bottom table finish, with TFC evening the series and taking the NCC.

Oldtimer
04-11-2011, 03:10 PM
Ives is a friend of Mo, ergo he is no friend of Winter. That will colour his thinking, even if unintentionally.


The rankings are so subjective at this point in the season that it doesn't warrant much validity.

We shouldn't really look at them until the All-Star break. Same goes for the sportsclubstats website. It is ludicrously inaccurate early in the season. Last year in baseball, they had the Jays at a 95% chance of making the playoffs at one point.

Pigfynn
04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Why is he biased? Is there some lack of rationale in his rankings?

Where would you put us?

Oh Jesus Roogsy...relax ,I'm not looking for an argument. Ives is a red bull guy and frequently ignores anything MLS related from the north.

FTR..

I think the idea of power rankings a) at this time of the year b) in the MLS in general are mainly a useless excercise as any team can beat any team on any day.

The table is the power ranking.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
I don't think they're biased for the most part. Power Rankings are what they are... an indication of current performance, not potential performance. At the end of the season this list will look very different.

Roogsy
04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Whatever, I couldn't disagree with you more that Vancouver and NE deserve to be ahead of us. I won't even bring up the massacre TFC experienced in Vancouver.

BTW Vancouver losing to Houston away from home 3-1 is pretty expected. It's not like they were favorites or something.

But anyway, this doesn't look biased to me at all. Even if you disagree about 1 or 2 places you'll always have people who disagree.

Vancouver was missing it's DP (Hassli to a stupid red, what an idiot) and Demerit's injury led directly to the 2nd goal. Missing your top 2 players is always going to have a bad impact. Had that not been the case, I could easily have seen the Whitecaps escape with a point.

At the moment, I would put them ahead of us.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:13 PM
Vancouver was missing it's DP (Hassli to a stupid red, what an idiot) and Demerit's injury led directly to the 2nd goal. Missing your top 2 players is always going to have a bad impact. Had that not been the case, I could easily have seen the Whitecaps escape with a point.

At the moment, I would put them ahead of us.

Vancouver's complete starting 11 is an above-average MLS side. The same can't be said for TFC's inaugural 11. They're not yet built for MLS success though, as even a few players missing will sink their ship.

brad
04-11-2011, 03:14 PM
Whatever, I couldn't disagree with you more that Vancouver and NE deserve to be ahead of us. I won't even bring up the massacre TFC experienced in Vancouver.

BTW Vancouver losing to Houston away from home 3-1 is pretty expected. It's not like they were favorites or something.

But anyway, this doesn't look biased to me at all. Even if you disagree about 1 or 2 places you'll always have people who disagree.

Not sure of Ives criteria but he may factor in that Vancouver had a bunch of players out injured and we don't.

I've noticed though that he is not reporting much on TFC this year

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Not sure of Ives criteria but he may factor in that Vancouver had a bunch of players out injured and we don't.

I've noticed though that he is not reporting much on TFC this year

Probably because Winter hates the media.

Roogsy
04-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Oh Jesus Roogsy...relax ,I'm not looking for an argument. Ives is a red bull guy and frequently ignores anything MLS related from the north.


So anyone who questions your statement about Ives being a douchebag is looking for an argument? :noidea:

I was just looking for evidence of his bias as you claimed. I always thought of Galarcep as relatively objective despite his obvious leaning towards NY.

Pachuco
04-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Vancouver's complete starting 11 is an above-average MLS side. The same can't be said for TFC's inaugural 11. They're not yet built for MLS success though, as even a few players missing will sink their ship.

They've been missing a few players since day 1. And until now, they've had to use their depth alot more then they probably expected. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

Pigfynn
04-11-2011, 03:18 PM
So anyone who questions your statement about Ives being a douchebag is looking for an argument? :noidea:

I was just looking for evidence of his bias as you claimed. I always thought of Galarcep as relatively objective despite his obvious leaning towards NY.

:noidea:

Roogsy
04-11-2011, 03:19 PM
They've been missing a few players since day 1. And until now, they've had to use their depth alot more then they probably expected. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

I think he was supporting the point of view that the Whitecaps are better than TFC but not a very good side because they are disproportionately reliant on a couple of big signings who when they're out, cause Vancouver to struggle.

Roogsy
04-11-2011, 03:20 PM
:noidea:

Every reporter leans towards a team Pig...or do you think Molinaro and other Toronto media don't lean towards TFC despite having to write about them and at times be critical?

rocker
04-11-2011, 03:22 PM
of course his rankings are biased. that's what they are, rankings by a guy named Ives. That's the definition of subjective. It's not like they are mathematical formulas measuring schedule strength, home/away schedule, rosters etc.

here's the best power ranking I can find.. totally objective! the actual standings in single table format.

http://www.settingthetable.info/home/

habstfc
04-11-2011, 03:23 PM
I always thought of Galarcep as relatively objective despite his obvious leaning towards NY.

Ya everyone knows the red bulls are the flagship of mls. They had 13,000 at their last home game, so why wouldn't he lean towards them and their almighty fanbase.

Pigfynn
04-11-2011, 03:24 PM
Every reporter leans toward a team Pig...or do you think Molinaro and other Toronto media don't lean toward TFC despite having to write about them and at times be critical?

Actually I'm glad you brought up Molinaro.

I think he does a MUCH better job of being objective than almost any other reporter that reports on this league. In world football he has some pretty heavy biases though.

He certainly is more objective than Rollins and Reycroft who are great but obviously fans of TFC.

Pachuco
04-11-2011, 03:26 PM
I think he was supporting the point of view that the Whitecaps are better than TFC but not a very good side because they are disproportionately reliant on a couple of big signings who when they're out, cause Vancouver to struggle.

But I think that is so not what Vancouver is. They've been missing a few key signings in every game they've played so far. If anything, they've shown me they are pretty deep. Chiumiento, Hassli, Dunfield, Demerit, The 1st overall pick for 2011 and Camilo have all been out for 1 or more games. Those guys have for the most part been replaced by some pretty capable players and I wouldn't say the ship has sunk. They've been an average team which is saying alot considering they are an expansion team with key players missing in every game.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-11-2011, 03:26 PM
here's the best power ranking I can find.. totally objective! the actual standings in single table format.

http://www.settingthetable.info/home/

how things should be done anyways, nevermind this conference nonsense

DangerRed
04-11-2011, 03:27 PM
of course his rankings are biased. that's what they are, rankings by a guy named Ives. That's the definition of subjective. It's not like they are mathematical formulas measuring schedule strength, home/away schedule, rosters etc.

here's the best power ranking I can find.. totally objective! the actual standings in single table format.

http://www.settingthetable.info/home/

We're making the playoffs!!!!!!

:hump::D

TFCRegina
04-11-2011, 03:33 PM
Power Rankings are based on performances. If TFC drew a side away that was ranked 5 in the Power Rankings last week, they should move up. If Vancouver loses to the Dynamo, they should move down a fair bit. It doesn't matter how good the team is on paper, the changes are supposed to reflect the performance.

The performance of Vancouver in the league at this point does not warrent them being as high as ten, and TFC, with virtually the same record I might add, being as low as 16 and making no movement in the record.

ManUtd4ever
04-11-2011, 03:34 PM
I am actually thankful for all the additional television exposure of MLS clubs in general this season because admittedly, I wasn't that familiar with other clubs in the league in past years other than what I saw during TFC games.

I've already watched several games this year, and in all honesty, I think our current roster measures up well with most clubs in MLS. Based on what I've seen, I believe TFC is a mid table club at the moment.

Pachuco
04-11-2011, 03:37 PM
Power Rankings are based on performances. If TFC drew a side away that was ranked 5 in the Power Rankings last week, they should move up. If Vancouver loses to the Dynamo, they should move down a fair bit. It doesn't matter how good the team is on paper, the changes are supposed to reflect the performance.

The performance of Vancouver in the league at this point does not warrent them being as high as ten, and TFC, with virtually the same record I might add, being as low as 16 and making no movement in the record.

Where is the written rule that power rankings are based on performance? I follow power rankings in lots of different sports and have never heard that. In most cases their has to be some sort of subjetivity involved or else you would do exactly what other's have said, point to the table and you have your rankings.

Why even bother ranking teams then?

habstfc
04-11-2011, 03:42 PM
Why even bother ranking teams then?

Exactly.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:44 PM
But I think that is so not what Vancouver is. They've been missing a few key signings in every game they've played so far. If anything, they've shown me they are pretty deep. Chiumiento, Hassli, Dunfield, Demerit, The 1st overall pick for 2011 and Camilo have all been out for 1 or more games. Those guys have for the most part been replaced by some pretty capable players and I wouldn't say the ship has sunk. They've been an average team which is saying alot considering they are an expansion team with key players missing in every game.

I grant you that they've held up so far, but look closer at the record:

Vancouver is 1-2-2 through five. They are a KC collapse away from 1-3-1 (though their resilience was impressive and promising) and their lone win was against the weakest team to be fielded in MLS this season.

They are better than we were. They are better than Portland. They will not make the playoffs.

Over the next five games they have Chivas (H) FC Dallas (H) Columbus (A) Fire (A) SJ (H). I feel that 1-2-2 is a realistic prediction and encouraging for a first-year club, but you don't make it to the post-season if you take 10 from every 30 points; they would be on pace for 30 points, putting them in 3rd-last place based on last year's final results, ahead of only Chivas and DC United.

Oldtimer
04-11-2011, 03:51 PM
Power Rankings are based on performances. If TFC drew a side away that was ranked 5 in the Power Rankings last week, they should move up.

So maybe Elo ratings for MLS is in order.

TFCRegina
04-11-2011, 03:52 PM
So maybe Elo ratings for MLS is in order.

Probably not the worst idea, and it could determine which team is the best in MLS over time.

Dreadlocks
04-11-2011, 03:52 PM
Rankings are opinion - there is no right or wrong. Very few actually use mathematical equations to create them and even still one could argue that the equation would be flawed (ie. the international ranking system)

rocker
04-11-2011, 03:55 PM
The original power rankings of the 80s were only subjective in the sense that a human came up with a set of variables and a formula by which to rank teams, teams that often never played each other (college football).

But there was a formula. I have no idea what Ives formula is. Does he list it on his site? That makes it somewhat less arbitrary.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure what purpose power rankings serve. Are they supposed to be predictive? Reflective? If a lesser team beats a bigger team, that makes the lesser team better? What if they go on to lose to a lesser team? And in a balanced schedule, with everybody playing everybody else, what does it matter? Three points is three points and everybody will eventually play everybody else.

That's why I always say my "power ranking" is the league table.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 03:56 PM
Power Rankings have morphed from a mathematics-based ranking to a quick and easy article for any sports journalist.

rocker
04-11-2011, 03:58 PM
Power Rankings have morphed from a mathematics-based ranking to a quick and easy article for any sports journalist.

Exactly.

And they've gone from being used to judge teams against teams that don't play each other, or who have unbalanced schedules, to being employed in leagues where everybody plays everybody else and the schedule is balanced. I'm not sure it has any purpose in that context.

ginkster88
04-11-2011, 04:00 PM
Exactly.

And they've gone from being used to judge teams against teams that don't play each other, or who have unbalanced schedules, to being employed in leagues where everybody plays everybody else and the schedule is balanced. I'm not sure it has any purpose in that context.

Not in that context but it's definitely quick content to polarize fans, drive page views. Many readers will check a site specifically to read the power rankings as soon as they are released.

J .
04-11-2011, 04:33 PM
Dont get the Ives hate.

Ill agree that I dont think Vans ranks in the top ten, but I would say the TFC squad needs to prove more than Van while Van ranks higher cause people notice it more due to lowered expectations.

They are probably a 13-10 area ranking. I think SKC and the Fire deserve higher merit to be honest than Van, but by this time next week, if each team wins against a "lesser" opponent, then I would say its a mixed bag of same.

In the five years Ive read his stuff it doesnt seem biased and aside from 1-2 spots in either direction from most people, his rankings arent horrible

QSIM
04-11-2011, 05:27 PM
Power rankings are fairly trivial. I'm more interested in the "outlook" or "performance" blurb which recaps the previous week. Its nice to be credited with high rankings for good performances but its the points in the table that truly count.

werewolf
04-11-2011, 05:37 PM
These are my power rankings.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/standings

DichioTFC
04-12-2011, 12:57 PM
The MLS power rankings has us 15th (down from 14 the previous week - we would've held firm but Houston leapfrogged us in their rankings with their performance - http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/mls-power-rankings-week-4).

Personally, I like how everyone's underestimating us. We're the underdogs going into every game and that's fine by me. I want teams to look past us and not take us seriously. The team has been playing well and we have the potential to shine.

IMO the longer we're near the bottom of these subjective power rankings, the better.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-12-2011, 01:16 PM
thats pretty much it, as long as we keep doing well (ie winning and if necessary tieing) they can put us up at 75th place for all i care, especially if it helps us

rocker
04-12-2011, 01:18 PM
thats pretty much it, as long as we keep doing well (ie winning and if necessary tieing) they can put us up at 75th place for all i care, especially if it helps us

and in the end, all that matters is the league table. and if they do well, at the end Ives will just say "what a surprising season from TFC! Who could have predicted it?"

Ossington Mental Youth
04-12-2011, 01:21 PM
HAHAHA pretty much

Shakes McQueen
04-12-2011, 01:22 PM
Yeah, I really couldn't care less about these rankings - usually all they are is an opinionated reflection of how well the teams are playing right at the moment.

I know how my team is playing, and I know what I think of it. I don't need it validated by some other guy ascertaining where they belong on a numbered list, according to their own private criteria.

And I've got no problem with Ives. He has generally given TFC a fair shake in the past, and has largely only had good things to say about the fans in Toronto.

- Scott

2mil4dero+santo
04-12-2011, 01:25 PM
I like these rankings cause they give some insight into whats happening with the other teams around the league. I usually don't have time to watch all the weeks games and know what players are healthy etc, this gives a good overview as to whats going on around the league with the other teams...

Technorgasm
04-12-2011, 01:33 PM
is Ive a respected N. American Soccer Journo?
I hate to say it. . but he probalby is, given his history with teh sport here.

that said
I respect his opnion on TFC as much as I do Bill Archer's.
in short. . .
EAT IT.

-norB

scooterTFC
04-12-2011, 02:02 PM
I think Ives does a excellent job covering the league, and he is generally recognized as one of the journalists most dedicated to covering this sport in the US. His editorial opinions of MLS players and teams are generally well informed, I might not always agree with him but I apreciate his perspective.

Questioning his credibility as a journalist because you disagree with his subjective ranking of our team in a blog post is kinda ridiculous.

His opinions are not always correct, but his perspective is interesting. In preseason he was predicting that Portland would score more goals and be more competive than Vancouver. After 4 games the opposite seems to be true and he's flip-flopped his opinion.

Fishnicker
04-12-2011, 02:32 PM
I hate to admit it, but I'm addicted to power rankings. I know each writer has a different criteria but I don't really care. And they usually have us all over the place. For instance, last week matchfit had us at 13th and Dallas last. Soccer america has us 14th this week, even from last week. Dallas seemed to be the big winner, going from 16th to 9th. Van dropped from 9th to 15th in the same ranking. Goal loves us for some reason, but has us too high in my opinion.

I think we should be around where Columbus is, with Chivas, Portland, DC and possibly Seattle behind us. I tend to go by current form and not potential.

Almost all of the rankings have Chivas and Portland respectively bringing up the rear.

Pigfynn
04-12-2011, 02:52 PM
I think Ives does a excellent job covering the league, and he is generally recognized as one of the journalists most dedicated to covering this sport in the US. His editorial opinions of MLS players and teams are generally well informed, I might not always agree with him but I apreciate his perspective.

Questioning his credibility as a journalist because you disagree with his subjective ranking of our team in a blog post is kinda ridiculous.

His opinions are not always correct, but his perspective is interesting. In preseason he was predicting that Portland would score more goals and be more competive than Vancouver. After 4 games the opposite seems to be true and he's flip-flopped his opinion.

I think he's questioned because he is a red bulls reporter. He has an affiliation to that team. Their team news and stories about their inner workings are featured the most on his site and in his tweets.

Would you not take what Asif or Lee Godfrey said about the rest of the league's strengh or lack there of with a hefty grain of salt if you were a Columbus supporter?

I would...for a few reasons :D

scooterTFC
04-12-2011, 08:13 PM
I think he's questioned because he is a red bulls reporter. He has an affiliation to that team. Their team news and stories about their inner workings are featured the most on his site and in his tweets.

Would you not take what Asif or Lee Godfrey said about the rest of the league's strengh or lack there of with a hefty grain of salt if you were a Columbus supporter?

I would...for a few reasons :D

No debating that he works the red bulls beat pretty hard. It's pretty clear when you read his stuff that his nyrb posts are for nyrb fans but the rest of his MLS coverage is done with a broader perspective. He's definitely nj/ny guy but he covers the league as well or better than anyone. I'm not nominating the guy for Pulitzer or anything, but the Asif analogy is not really a credible argument, it's like comparing the pennysaver to the globe&mail. Ives is independent journalist who's dedication to coverage of US soccer scene has earned him a large audience, and his voice is respected. Asif is a team employee who we all know is shilling for "the man".

ArmenJBX
04-12-2011, 08:18 PM
I believe we should be fourth overall!

jloome
04-12-2011, 08:37 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/mls-power-rankings-week-4

LOL. No breaks here -- the MLS power poll has us losing a place, despite tieing San Jose.

sidvan
04-12-2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/mls-power-rankings-week-4

LOL. No breaks here -- the MLS power poll has us losing a place, despite tieing San Jose.

pretty bad when the league soccer site (rankings) has us playing day after tomorrow against LA.

The Dwayne De Rosario (http://www.mlssoccer.com/player/dwayne-de-rosario) trade may have changed this team for the better. It’s hard to understate the difference a physical presence like Tony Tchani (http://www.mlssoccer.com/player/tony-tchani) makes in the middle of the 4-3-3, and Danleigh Borman (http://www.mlssoccer.com/player/danleigh-borman)’s made them significantly more dangerous down the left side.
Last Week: Tied San Jose, 1-1 (RECAP (http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter-recap/dawkins-rescues-point-quakes-against-reds)/WATCH (http://www.mlssoccer.com/videos?catid=1822&id=13582))
This Week: Thursday vs. LA (8 pm, MatchDay Live (https://mdl.mlssoccer.com/mlsmdl/secure/registerform)), Saturday vs. D.C. United (7 pm, Fox Soccer)

Batman
04-13-2011, 08:33 AM
Power Rankings are based on performances. If TFC drew a side away that was ranked 5 in the Power Rankings last week, they should move up. If Vancouver loses to the Dynamo, they should move down a fair bit. It doesn't matter how good the team is on paper, the changes are supposed to reflect the performance.

The performance of Vancouver in the league at this point does not warrent them being as high as ten, and TFC, with virtually the same record I might add, being as low as 16 and making no movement in the record.

Yep. I also think the most laughable ranking by Ives is HIS beloved shite bulls.
He has them rankied at 5, 11 place above TFC, with the EXACT same record to date. Ya... that's unbiased. :facepalm:

Batman
04-13-2011, 08:53 AM
of course his rankings are biased. that's what they are, rankings by a guy named Ives. That's the definition of subjective. It's not like they are mathematical formulas measuring schedule strength, home/away schedule, rosters etc.

here's the best power ranking I can find.. totally objective! the actual standings in single table format.

http://www.settingthetable.info/home/

Nice find. I've saved this.

Shakes McQueen
04-13-2011, 09:06 AM
Yep. I also think the most laughable ranking by Ives is HIS beloved shite bulls.
He has them rankied at 5, 11 place above TFC, with the EXACT same record to date. Ya... that's unbiased. :facepalm:

Most "power rankings" don't only take results to date into account - they also reflect the author's opinion of the team's prospects. Especially this early in the season, when the team's haven't shaken out where they are likely to be hanging out in the standings this season.

Clearly Ives thinks that NY's prospects for this season are better than Toronto's. I suspect most of us would agree with that.

However, I do suspect Ives has some measure of bias towards the Red Bulls. It's not a big deal though - Ives' blog has always been tuned towards the Red Bulls. I do think it's a little silly to have us ranked six places behind new York, when we have the same record, and are technically ahead of them in the standings right now (our GPG is way higher).

- Scott

Beach_Red
04-13-2011, 09:19 AM
^ And these rankings usually take into account opponents. It is kind of funny that Ives picked SJ to win 3-0 and then we tied them 1-1. Something like that should raise the ranking, but there you go.

If he wanted to say that so far TFC have played a couple of expansion teams, that's fine, but then the SJ game has to mean more.

v00d00daddy
04-13-2011, 10:31 AM
It'll be interesting to see how much TFC rise (if at all) if/when they beat LA.

Batman
04-13-2011, 02:48 PM
Most "power rankings" don't only take results to date into account - they also reflect the author's opinion of the team's prospects. Especially this early in the season, when the team's haven't shaken out where they are likely to be hanging out in the standings this season.

Clearly Ives thinks that NY's prospects for this season are better than Toronto's. I suspect most of us would agree with that.

However, I do suspect Ives has some measure of bias towards the Red Bulls. It's not a big deal though - Ives' blog has always been tuned towards the Red Bulls. I do think it's a little silly to have us ranked six places behind new York, when we have the same record, and are technically ahead of them in the standings right now (our GPG is way higher).

- Scott

I agree they don't ONLY take into account results. If they did, they might as well be called STANDINGS.

However, to have the EXACT same result and be separate by 11 spots in pretty bizarre, and the fact that the one that has the 11 position advantage just happens to be the oine he roots for, just kind of smells bad.