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View Full Version : Toronto FC home training facility, Downsvew Park Project Info.



tfcmanu
04-05-2011, 12:39 PM
RECREATION BUILDING Proj: 9120548-4
Toronto, Metro Toronto Reg ON CONTEMPLATED

Toronto FC home training facility, Downsvew Park, M5A
$30,000,000 est

Start: September, 2011 Complete: September, 2014

Note: Owner is finalizing agreements with the chosen community for the project. Owner is seeking interest from architects to complete design and working drawings and from landscape architects. Owner will complete a roster list of sub trades to work on this project. A general contractor will be secured summer 2011. Further update early summer 2011.

Project: proposed construction of a Premier soccer facility in the GTA for the Toronto FC's Training Grounds. The project will provide Toronto FC's training and development needs while providing over 24,000 hours of community usage to an estimated 1.5 million visitors annually. The scope of work may include two state of the art grass pitches - one dedicated to the Toronto FC first team and the second a stadium grass pitch, with 1,000 capacity bench seating. The stadium will host showcase events - local championships, visiting international team training camps, and Toronto FC Academy games. The building will also feature four full size turf pitches. Adjacent to the training field will be a goalkeeping area specifically designed for keeper training. The outdoor fields will be housed within a 'bubble' to create all-season fields while a fourth all-weather field will be enclosed within a permanent structure. A field house with direct access to the permanent indoor field will be the full-time home of Toronto FC and will include office space, locker rooms for Toronto FC's first team, three Academy teams, and all of the community groups expected to use the facility. The building will also feature workout rooms, and multipurpose classrooms.

Development: New
Category: Recreational bldgs; Retail, wholesale services; Commercial offices



http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?773-Parc-Downsview-Park&p=508378

Whoop
04-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Good catch.

dupont
04-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Glad I'm not the only person that browses urbantoronto.ca! :)

Stryker
04-05-2011, 12:46 PM
30 million!? Thats alot of money. Don't know if I could see Rogers doing that.

mdc 77
04-05-2011, 12:50 PM
Something to be positive about. :)

Hoping this all goes through with no issues, would be fantastic for this to be located at Downsview!

Waggy
04-05-2011, 12:52 PM
I'm packing a half pack of rolaids right now. That's awesome


And I could see Rogers doing it, as much as we give MLSE grief, any semblance of a sane corporation would know a cash cow when they see it. Investing in soccer in Toronto is just a good idea. They'll make their money back on the community use, plus a few big international club practices. That's why I trust MLSE a bit, they'll spend if they think they'll get a return and soccer/tfc has proven to provide a good return on investment for them. Can't wait to see it. Aside- I hope a new 35000 cfl stadium goes up next to it (paging the argos- paging the argos. Another perfect opportunity to get involved in a project. for the love of god and all your fans, do it. Build a practice facility, a community field and a 35 000 stadium. It wouldn't cost much. It'd save the canadian football league in Toronto. I'm begging you. Just do it.)

tfcmanu
04-05-2011, 12:53 PM
You have access to Downsview TFC training facility via Downsview Subway station so this is very convenient with the 401 and Allen Road nearby....Maybe put a Downsview Go train stop on Barrie Line.

DichioTFC
04-05-2011, 12:54 PM
^ One thing MLSE knows how to do is to spend money and make money. This will be a great investment for the company during the Leafs' off-season
;)

Waggy
04-05-2011, 12:58 PM
^ One thing MLSE knows how to do is to spend money and make money. This will be a great investment for the company during the Leafs' off-season
;)

Not to mention the LONG offseason the Raps are about to have. As much as the lockouts will suck for the NBA and NFL and their fans, it's a great opportunity for the NHL, NCAA, CFL and MLS to grab fans. The door will be open if anyone dares to walk through it....

ryan
04-05-2011, 01:00 PM
30 million!? Thats alot of money. Don't know if I could see Rogers doing that.

Rogers is going to pump 50-60 Million on to their existing Jays salary in the next couple of years.

They could do it, easily.

Isn't Rogers worth about 10x MLSE anyways?

ManUtd4ever
04-05-2011, 01:11 PM
Good find. I trust this is ample evidence that MLSE is in fact willing to invest significant financial resources towards the long term stability and success of this franchise.

billyfly
04-05-2011, 01:13 PM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=22560&highlight=Training&page=3

We talked about Downsview in the previous threads.

Whoop
04-05-2011, 01:28 PM
I think though MLSE has finally found their target area which is why they are petitioning it now.

nfitz
04-05-2011, 02:24 PM
You have access to Downsview TFC training facility via Downsview Subway station so this is very convenient with the 401 and Allen Road nearby....Maybe put a Downsview Go train stop on Barrie Line.They are supposed to build a new GO Train stop at the Sheppard West subway station that is currently under construction. The Sheppard West subway station is a lot closer to Downsview Park than Downsview, and will open about 1-year after the training facility!

(to confuse matters more, there's a proposal out there to rename the new Sheppard West station to Downsview Park station ... and rename the existing Downsview station to Sheppard West).

Any indication where in Downsview Park this would go?

tfcmanu
04-05-2011, 02:38 PM
They are supposed to build a new GO Train stop at the Sheppard West subway station that is currently under construction. The Sheppard West subway station is a lot closer to Downsview Park than Downsview, and will open about 1-year after the training facility!

(to confuse matters more, there's a proposal out there to rename the new Sheppard West station to Downsview Park station ... and rename the existing Downsview station to Sheppard West).

Any indication where in Downsview Park this would go?

You are correct sir!

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Spadina_subway_extension/Design/Sheppard_West_Station.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheppard_West_(TTC)

nfitz
04-05-2011, 02:44 PM
BTW, the Downsview Park website (http://www.downsviewpark.ca/eng/illustrations.shtml) has some imagery showing the future layout.

http://www.downsviewpark.ca/images/NeighbourhoodMap_28Jan2010.jpg

It's all subject to change, but I'm guessing that they would put these fields where they already show fields and a small stadium just east of where that major new road (Chessword extension) crosses the Barrie GO train line. Which is where there are already soccer pitches. But I'm only guessing - and they'd probably have to have more than what is shown, as there are 3 there already ...

Captain
04-05-2011, 02:49 PM
I wonder what will happen to the current indoor soccer facility that's already at Downsview. I was just in there on Friday and thinking it could really do with an over haul.

mmmikey
04-05-2011, 03:53 PM
i hope that it doesn't go where the current Hangar fields are.. thats where I play every Wednesday!! :(

69Chevy396
04-05-2011, 04:28 PM
I may be wrong about the exact length of time, but Downsview Park was formed 20 years ago with a lot of fanfare, and a lot of plans for the future. Virtually nothing has been accomplished. The park section near Keele is only now taking shape around the pond they initially said would be finished years ago. The commercial/residential area to the east, near the new TTC station, is still not finalized, the zoning etc is no where near the point where this TFC stadium can be confirmed as a go. Based on what I have read, the earliest this thing could be approved for construction would be years from now, and as I mentioned above, the Park undergoes changes to the overall plan every few years: remember the technodome? Smell Assman tried to force that into our neighborhood, and thankfully it was shot down......I like the soccer stadium idea, it would be a great addition to this community, just don't hold your breath that it gets done any time soon.

Whoop
04-05-2011, 04:39 PM
I hope it does as I'm five minutes from there.

Krasno.pL.
04-05-2011, 04:40 PM
I hope they dont take "the hangar" down. Loved playing there years ago.

denime
04-05-2011, 04:55 PM
BTW, the Downsview Park website (http://www.downsviewpark.ca/eng/illustrations.shtml) has some imagery showing the future layout.

http://www.downsviewpark.ca/images/NeighbourhoodMap_28Jan2010.jpg

It's all subject to change, but I'm guessing that they would put these fields where they already show fields and a small stadium just east of where that major new road (Chessword extension) crosses the Barrie GO train line. Which is where there are already soccer pitches. But I'm only guessing - and they'd probably have to have more than what is shown, as there are 3 there already ...

Those fields are already there,tfc facility will not be that side and Hangar is safe too.I got that info Sunday and was told to keep it for myself,now that is already out I can talk about it.:D

nfitz
04-05-2011, 05:02 PM
Where did you hear it would be?

There doesn't look enough space in the Stanley Greene neighbourhood, and I'd be surprised if they are willing to remove that much park area from the main park.

I'm just guessing, but I'd think there'd be space to work around the 3 existing pitches, if they push the parking further south a bit, and eat into that proposed green space in the corner.

dantdot
04-18-2011, 12:08 PM
The announcement is today.

Pic posted a minute ago http://twitpic.com/4mhov9

drewski
04-18-2011, 12:33 PM
looks like it's exactly where nfitz said it'd be.

drewski
04-18-2011, 12:34 PM
http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-04-18/toronto-fc-academy-to-get-new-20-million-training-facility


‎torontofc (http://twitter.com/torontofc)‎: Stats: 14 acres, 3 grass fields, keeper training area, 40000 sq. ft. fieldhouse + FieldTurf field w/ winterized bubble

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2011, 12:38 PM
awesome, itll be great for the team and academy

billyfly
04-18-2011, 12:43 PM
Any speculation this is where TFC build a real stadium and give BMO to the Argos?

ensco
04-18-2011, 12:53 PM
Is this a slam dunk?

That is incredibly valuable land, acres and acres sitting next to a subway station, that they're not really paying for. (This is not a criticism of MLSE, btw, they should only do whatever makes commercial sense to them...)

Anyone know what the alternative uses analysis shows? (When the City gives out leases or sells property, they have to publicly disclose whatever other use the site could be put to use for....)

golasogolaso
04-18-2011, 12:58 PM
is this city land or federal land? so MLSE gets land in return for developing it and ensuring community use for all within the complex

Whoop
04-18-2011, 01:00 PM
I think they're going with the community use angle here.



The project will provide Toronto FC's training and development needs while providing over 24,000 hours of community usage to an estimated 1.5 million visitors annually.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2011, 01:02 PM
The new Academy complex is literally across the street from my office. :D

drewski
04-18-2011, 01:07 PM
Is this a slam dunk?

That is incredibly valuable land, acres and acres sitting next to a subway station, that they're not really paying for. (This is not a criticism of MLSE, btw, they should only do whatever makes commercial sense to them...)

Anyone know what the alternative uses analysis shows? (When the City gives out leases or sells property, they have to publicly disclose whatever other use the site could be put to use for....)


is this city land or federal land? so MLSE gets land in return for developing it and ensuring community use for all within the complex

from the link i posted


The site is owned by the Canadian government and is on an old airfield in the Downsview Park neighborhood of Toronto. Hunter said MLSE chose the venue from 11 candidates because of its 10-mile proximity to BMO Field and because the site is adjacent to an existing community sports park that includes four indoor soccer fields.



The project is being funded entirely by MLSE, which signed a 20-year lease with the Canadian government to use the site. Hunter said MLSE has begun the search for a “significant title sponsor” for the facility.

drewski
04-18-2011, 01:17 PM
and for reference, here's the initial concept

http://www.theaircanadacentre.com/assets/default/Practice%20Facility.pdf

http://i53.tinypic.com/11kfrbc.jpg

and the actual

http://i54.tinypic.com/2a4z9yo.jpg

Whoop
04-18-2011, 01:20 PM
Wow... MLSE is fronting the bill?

I'm sure they'll sell the rights to the training facility to another sponsor though to recoup the money.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 01:23 PM
Bottom left hand corner "Potential MLSE expansion"

drewski
04-18-2011, 01:27 PM
Wow... MLSE is fronting the bill?

I'm sure they'll sell the rights to the training facility to another sponsor though to recoup the money.

yup, $20M, and they said they're looking for title sponsor.

DangerRed
04-18-2011, 01:33 PM
Wonder if adidas or BMO would do it.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 01:34 PM
Bottom left hand corner "Potential MLSE expansion"

That area is too small for a large stadium.

Yeoman
04-18-2011, 02:37 PM
sponsored by tim hortons
i'm actually suprised to not see timmies get in on some type of sponsoring with tfc
good to see tfc get their own fields too though

Auzzy
04-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Downsview announcement is awesome news!!! They are paying to build the facility, plus rent to Downsview Park. Glad they were able to find a spot in Toronto, central within GTA, close to TTC, highways, Vaughan Road Collegiate high school program for athletes etc.

dantdot
04-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Announcement on TFC TV: http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=2990
http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=2991

de Klerk busts out the whiteboard :)

Whoop
04-18-2011, 03:38 PM
Winter gives props to Stuart Neely and Jason Bent.

The key is getting the kids in younger.

rocker
04-18-2011, 03:41 PM
So the actual design is bigger than the original. The original had 6 fields (1 indoor, 5 outdoor) while this has 7 fields (all outdoor but 1 will have winter bubble). I guess once they decided on Downsview they knew they wouldn't need the big indoor field since there are indoor fields next door.

Downsview is probably the best location for this. Right off a subway line, a line that's expanding all the way to Vaughn. Right off the highway too.

mastermixer
04-18-2011, 03:44 PM
So the actual design is bigger than the original. The original had 6 fields (1 indoor, 5 outdoor) while this has 7 fields (all outdoor). I guess once they decided on Downsview they knew they wouldn't need the big indoor field since there are indoor fields next door.

Downsview is probably the best location for this. Right off a subway line, a line that's expanding all the way to Vaughn. Right off the highway too.

I think they said one field will have a permanent bubble didnt they?

prizby
04-18-2011, 04:19 PM
interesting...i went to high school with the daughther of Downsview Park Inc. President & CEO

rocker
04-18-2011, 04:23 PM
I think they said one field will have a permanent bubble didnt they?

I just assumed it would be winter bubble. but maybe it's permanent.

i do see that one grass field will be heated. Does that mean a SubAir installation like BMO Field has???

Shakes McQueen
04-18-2011, 04:32 PM
Is this a slam dunk?

That is incredibly valuable land, acres and acres sitting next to a subway station, that they're not really paying for. (This is not a criticism of MLSE, btw, they should only do whatever makes commercial sense to them...)

Anyone know what the alternative uses analysis shows? (When the City gives out leases or sells property, they have to publicly disclose whatever other use the site could be put to use for....)

The short TSN.ca article says that MLSE will be paying annual rent to Downsview Park.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
04-18-2011, 04:34 PM
Wow... MLSE is fronting the bill?

I'm sure they'll sell the rights to the training facility to another sponsor though to recoup the money.

Yes, but I doubt naming rights to a training facility is going to pull in a ton of money.

- Scott

bgnewf
04-18-2011, 04:36 PM
TFC Spending Millions on Academy Home

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/04/tfc-spending-millions-on-academy-home/

TFC announces long awaited plans for the new training facility opening next year in Toronto's Downsview Park.

Cashcleaner
04-18-2011, 05:02 PM
From this point on, I will no longer make any complaint about the millionaires at MLSE being given public funds for the construction of BMO Field. A 20 million dollar state-of-the-art training facility spent for the creation of a dedicated team training facility with half of the area given over to community use is hard to knock.

And like many have pointed out, if the club is willing to shell out this sort of cash for a long-term investment such as the training facility, then perhaps we should overlook some of the short-term misfortunes of the club.

Auzzy
04-18-2011, 05:06 PM
I just assumed it would be winter bubble. but maybe it's permanent.

i do see that one grass field will be heated. Does that mean a SubAir installation like BMO Field has???

Yes, in the announcement they said one grass field will be built the same way as the BMO grass pitch.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 06:39 PM
Now please fix up BMO and get me a nice supporter's gate.

denime
04-18-2011, 06:42 PM
AND IT"S OFFICIAL


Laying Down Roots (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/laying-down-roots)




The joint facility will be built on a 14-acre parcel at Downsview Park in North York.

The complex will include three grass fields, one of them heated, and a FieldTurf field topped by a winterized bubble. Also planned is a 40,000 square foot fieldhouse with locker rooms, training facilities and team offices. And for the present and future Stefan Frei, a dedicated goalkeeper training area

Whoop
04-18-2011, 06:48 PM
Yes, but I doubt naming rights to a training facility is going to pull in a ton of money.

- Scott

You never know.

Look at the MasterCard Centre.

I think you can get $1 million/year.

TFCRegina
04-18-2011, 06:59 PM
You never know.

Look at the MasterCard Centre.

I think you can get $1 million/year.

The Telus Topflight Training Centre.

Suck both ma balls Bell.

Whoop
04-18-2011, 07:01 PM
Could be....

Imagine the number of people through during a given season?

Pharma Plus Fields...

Or Fido Fields...

Or Pharma Plus Fields and Telus Training Facility.

They'll be able to milk it.

nfitz
04-18-2011, 07:17 PM
looks like it's exactly where nfitz said it'd be.Lucky guess from looking at the map ... and wishful thinking as it was the available land closest to the subway!

So if MLSE is willing to drop almost $20-million for a first-class soccer training facility with tones of community use ...

... what would they be willing to drop for a hockey facility near downtown, with tons of community use ... in the Portlands. Something like this might solve the funding issue the city has for the proposed 4-pad facility.

ensco
04-18-2011, 07:19 PM
I cannot but wonder, how the heck do some fields, and a building with change rooms, cost $20 million?

I'm glad they're doing it and all, but let's just say, they're unlikely to wind up on the low side of pricing of usage. They'll be pointing at that "$20 million" figure like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, when the pricing is revealed.

btw I never understood how BMO could cost remotely close to the $60 million it cost.

I feel like there's some sort of game played with these numbers, and somehow the public and the users wind up the losers.

for those so inclined, spare me the ingrate speeches, I think we're all beyond thinking the ownership do things out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm just interested in understanding the real business case better.

nascarguy
04-18-2011, 07:30 PM
Could be....

Imagine the number of people through during a given season?

Pharma Plus Fields...

Or Fido Fields...

Or Pharma Plus Fields and Telus Training Facility.

They'll be able to milk it.
are you drinking again .....lol :drinking:

denime
04-18-2011, 07:30 PM
The top 4 fields already exist,MLSE has to build only bottom 3 natural grass fields one of them heated,a winterized bubble for one FieldTurf and 40,000 square foot fieldhouse with locker rooms, training facilities and team offices.

All of that for 20 mill,it must be build by unionized company or it would cost exactly 41% less.

Suds
04-18-2011, 07:31 PM
I cannot but wonder, how the heck do some fields, and a building with change rooms, cost $20 million?

I'm glad they're doing it and all, but let's just say, they're unlikely to wind up on the low side of pricing of usage. They'll be pointing at that "$20 million" figure like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, when the pricing is revealed.

btw I never understood how BMO could cost remotely close to the $60 million it cost.

I feel like there's some sort of game played with these numbers, and somehow the public and the users wind up the losers.

for those so inclined, spare me the ingrate speeches, I think we're all beyond thinking the ownership do things out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm just interested in understanding the real business case better.

Usually that number is a total budget number, not just the actual construction of the facility itself. In that number could be any list of things - consulting, operation, marketing, etc. I do not know what makes up the number announced in this case, only to say that these are budgets based on total cost of a project.

billyfly
04-18-2011, 07:33 PM
I cannot but wonder, how the heck do some fields, and a building with change rooms, cost $20 million?

I'm glad they're doing it and all, but let's just say, they're unlikely to wind up on the low side of pricing of usage. They'll be pointing at that "$20 million" figure like it's a get-out-of-jail free card, when the pricing is revealed.

btw I never understood how BMO could cost remotely close to the $60 million it cost.

I feel like there's some sort of game played with these numbers, and somehow the public and the users wind up the losers.

for those so inclined, spare me the ingrate speeches, I think we're all beyond thinking the ownership do things out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm just interested in understanding the real business case better.

I had this conversation Rob who sits in front of me in 112. He is an enigineer and he agrees with the price as stated or BMO. In other words, even the littlest thing costs $$$

ensco
04-18-2011, 07:52 PM
I had this conversation Rob who sits in front of me in 112. He is an enigineer and he agrees with the price as stated or BMO. In other words, even the littlest thing costs $$$

Pshaw. No way.

BMO's a meccano set, an oversized high school stadium.

Saputo cost $14 million, look it up. BMO's bigger, but the costs shouldn't be much more than what Saputo cost.

rocker
04-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Not sure what the surprise is.

Where I work, the university got $70 million from both levels of government to build a building full of classrooms that's 3.5 times bigger than the fieldhouse at Downsview. And that doesn't include any fields outside or a heating system underneath or a bubble on a field. So it's approximately the same price.

rocker
04-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Pshaw. No way.

BMO's a meccano set, an oversized high school stadium.

Saputo cost $14 million, look it up. BMO's bigger, but the costs shouldn't be much more than what Saputo cost.

BMO is way bigger than Saputo though. Look at the footprint of the office building connected to Saputo stadium. BMO's office space is three times bigger. Also, Saputo stadium was very cheaply built under each stand (there's no facilities under the stands). Not to mention the fact that the concrete for the covered stand already existed.

That's why Saputo was so cheap.

Also, the $14 million number is not certified to be true.

Beach_Red
04-18-2011, 07:58 PM
Pshaw. No way.

BMO's a meccano set, an oversized high school stadium.

Saputo cost $14 million, look it up. BMO's bigger, but the costs shouldn't be much more than what Saputo cost.

Okay, no ingrate speeches, but can we make jokes about Saputo's "connections" in the construction industry in Quebec?

ensco
04-18-2011, 08:01 PM
Okay, no ingrate speeches, but can we make jokes about Saputo's "connections" in the construction industry in Quebec?

That's fair. btw imho constuction costs in Montreal are higher than they are in Toronto, for the very same reason.

ensco
04-18-2011, 08:05 PM
BMO is way bigger than Saputo though. Look at the footprint of the office building connected to Saputo stadium. BMO's office space is three times bigger. Also, Saputo stadium was very cheaply built under each stand (there's no facilities under the stands). Not to mention the fact that the concrete for the covered stand already existed.

That's why Saputo was so cheap.

Also, the $14 million number is not certified to be true.

If you google "stadium cost" you will see that the cost of a 10,000 seat high school football stadium (excluding some taj mahals in Texas) is maybe $10-15 million. Gross that up by any number you think is fair, you won't get to even half of $60 million.

Cashcleaner
04-18-2011, 08:06 PM
Pshaw. No way.

BMO's a meccano set, an oversized high school stadium.

Saputo cost $14 million, look it up. BMO's bigger, but the costs shouldn't be much more than what Saputo cost.

Contractors always jack up the price and find new costs to charge when the government is involved (As it was with the construction of BMO Field). Stade Saputo, on the other hand, was paid for completely with private money. The reality is that contractors know that they have to work above the board when dealing with corporations or individuals with clout because those organizations won't hesitate in the slightest to bring in the lawyers if they think they are getting screwed at any point.

rocker
04-18-2011, 08:17 PM
If you google "stadium cost" you will see that the cost of a 10,000 seat high school football stadium (excluding some taj mahals in Texas) is maybe $10-15 million. Gross that up by any number you think is fair, you won't get to even half of $60 million.

in texas, it's cheaper to build. I remember when the cost of the new Houston stadium surprised people at how low it was, people down south were talking about the low labour costs there.

Remember that the Saputo addition for 2012 costs $27 million (and that number is accurate since the government confirmed it). If the original building cost number is accurate, that's $41 million for a stadium that just as big as the original BMO Field, but which has an office building that is three times smaller than BMO's.

If a high school football stadium in Texas is 10-15 million, and costs were the same between two different jurisdictions, why would Saputo stadium cost $41 million?

TFCRegina
04-18-2011, 08:29 PM
If you google "stadium cost" you will see that the cost of a 10,000 seat high school football stadium (excluding some taj mahals in Texas) is maybe $10-15 million. Gross that up by any number you think is fair, you won't get to even half of $60 million.

And if you look at any outdoor stadium in most sports, you'll find that usually the costs are very very high. The new outdoor stadium they've been talking about (along with a domed one) for the Riders would cost around a quarter of a billion dollars and seat only 15,000 more than BMO...

boban
04-18-2011, 09:53 PM
The top 4 fields already exist,MLSE has to build only bottom 3 natural grass fields one of them heated,a winterized bubble for one FieldTurf and 40,000 square foot fieldhouse with locker rooms, training facilities and team offices.

All of that for 20 mill,it must be build by unionized company or it would cost exactly 41% less.
Exactly. Thats a lot of money, essentially for a field house.

mdc 77
04-18-2011, 09:54 PM
I've always been one of the first to jump all over MLSE, from season one when they raised ticket prices and everyone thought that was just fine...anyways...in this case I could not care if they are inflating the price or whatever funny-omics are happening. This is a major announcement for the development of the club and maybe more importantly football in Canada.

For once I'm actually happy we are owned by a rich corporation who may not give a shite most of the time but has taken the initiative to create this academy. I never thought this was possible in 2007.

boban
04-18-2011, 09:59 PM
in texas, it's cheaper to build. I remember when the cost of the new Houston stadium surprised people at how low it was, people down south were talking about the low labour costs there.

Remember that the Saputo addition for 2012 costs $27 million (and that number is accurate since the government confirmed it). If the original building cost number is accurate, that's $41 million for a stadium that just as big as the original BMO Field, but which has an office building that is three times smaller than BMO's.

If a high school football stadium in Texas is 10-15 million, and costs were the same between two different jurisdictions, why would Saputo stadium cost $41 million?
It's bigger but I don't know about 3 times the size. But Saputo also has a roof encircling the whole stadium. Ours has squat.

boban
04-18-2011, 10:06 PM
And if you look at any outdoor stadium in most sports, you'll find that usually the costs are very very high. The new outdoor stadium they've been talking about (along with a domed one) for the Riders would cost around a quarter of a billion dollars and seat only 15,000 more than BMO...
That stadium has a retractable roof, football change rooms (3x size = $$$) and balls out on finishes from exterior to interior. That's not even worth mentioning - different leagues by a mile.

Beach_Red
04-18-2011, 10:28 PM
Contractors always jack up the price and find new costs to charge when the government is involved (As it was with the construction of BMO Field). Stade Saputo, on the other hand, was paid for completely with private money. The reality is that contractors know that they have to work above the board when dealing with corporations or individuals with clout because those organizations won't hesitate in the slightest to bring in the lawyers if they think they are getting screwed at any point.

Well, there may be some playing around with the costs, but it may not be because of a fear of lawyers.... Ensco makes a good point about this being much more of an issue in Toronto than is generally reported, but even in Montreal not all companies all equal in the businesss. Some companies may get a break on their costs that may get passed on to others.

TFCRegina
04-19-2011, 12:12 AM
That stadium has a retractable roof, football change rooms (3x size = $$$) and balls out on finishes from exterior to interior. That's not even worth mentioning - different leagues by a mile.

Actually, the stadium I described was the open air facility. The retractable roof facility is somewhere in the half billion dollar plus range.

But thanks for coming out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

One other thing, they're putting in a heated pitch at the new training facility, which would be a major part of the cost.

James17930
04-19-2011, 01:18 AM
So nice to hope that, because of this facility and the burgeoning academy program, we might have a shot of making the play-offs within 10 - 15 years.

ensco
04-19-2011, 06:48 AM
Actually, the stadium I described was the open air facility. The retractable roof facility is somewhere in the half billion dollar plus range.

But thanks for coming out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

One other thing, they're putting in a heated pitch at the new training facility, which would be a major part of the cost.

Look, I don't know anything about Regina, but we spent $600 million on Skydome 20 years ago, so I have no trouble believing that the sky is the limit. But that doesn't make it relevant.

Back to topic.

Re new heated grass fields, BMOs cost $3 million. New Fieldturf fields cost $2 million. They're commodities, and their prices don't change much city to city. The other fields are grass and unheated, they're much less, maybe $500K each. Then there's the locker room and offices, that's maybe $3 million. So I can see how you can get to $10 million. Max. Of which half is for TFC only, the other half will be shared.

So when they're talking about $20 million for the community, when they put the pricing in, and the tax breaks, way-below-market lease, and other freebies get disclosed, just remember that the community spend is something more like $2-3 million.

These guys are serious pros, working a broken system very effectively. I'm glad they're doing it, but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable with how they do it.

nfitz
04-19-2011, 07:10 AM
Re new heated grass fields, BMOs cost $3 million. New Fieldturf fields cost $2 million. They're commodities, and their prices don't change much city to city. Some of the fields are grass and unheated. Then there's the locker room and offices. That's maybe $3 million. So I can see how you can get to $10 million. But $20 million is not credible.The number MLSE is using is $17.5 million. The goalie practice area is about half the size of a pitch. That two-storey building doesn't look small - the length looks about the width of a football pitch, and the width about half that. That's 50,000 square feet (25,000 square feet per floor) - probably more as I assume there'd be basement as well. Construction costs should be well over $100 per square foot. It's not difficult to spend $40 per square foot on just good quality furnishings (desks and cubes). The building alone could be $7.5 million to build an furnish.

Who knows how much landscaping and site preparation is necessary. There's currently a runway where the pitches are going to go. Removing that and disposing of it won't be cheap; who knows how much else has to be spent. The City is currently spending about $70 million just to prepare a smaller piece of land to build the new streetcar yard on Leslie - obviously a more extreme example, but once you have to start hauling away material (such as old runways) things get expensive.

I don't find the numbers high.

ensco
04-19-2011, 07:17 AM
^If you think the building's going to be $7.5 million when you factor in finishes and furniture, you haven't had a tour of the offices of BMO yet! The place is like a concrete jail.

I think you're numbers are high across the board, I don't agree that construction costs for basic office space or anywhere close to $100, and I believe they can and will spend way less than $40 on finishes etc., but neither of us know what that building will really be, so best to leave it there.

That's a good point re the runway. Be interesting to see who's paying for that site prep - it usually stays with the landlord.

To restate, it's equally important to note the "community use" is maybe only a quarter of the facility, but the goodies (the use of valuable land at the price their getting, the tax breaks) count toward the whole project. I guess, in a world where money is wasted on all kins of stupid things, maybe it's OK when someone wastes it on something you like, but I still don't like it.

You have to admire MLSE. It's a seriously good bit of razzle dazzle.

McBrace
04-19-2011, 07:17 AM
Usually that number is a total budget number, not just the actual construction of the facility itself. In that number could be any list of things - consulting, operation, marketing, etc. I do not know what makes up the number announced in this case, only to say that these are budgets based on total cost of a project.

Permit fee's, Development charges the list goes on and on... You would be surprised how quickly it adds up.. Usually Marketing and operation come from a different budget, but every project is different.

drewski
04-19-2011, 07:49 AM
^If you think the building's going to be $7.5 million when you factor in finishes and furniture, you haven't had a tour of the offices of BMO yet! The place is like a concrete jail.

I think you're numbers are high across the board, I don't agree that construction costs for basic office space or anywhere close to $100, and I believe they can and will spend way less than $40 on finishes etc., but neither of us know what that building will really be, so best to leave it there.



what about training equipment for the players, weights, special pools, etc? that stuff can aso add up in a hurry.

McBrace
04-19-2011, 07:59 AM
Building something for less than $120/sf without furniture, fixtures, and equipment is difficult these days. The 20 Million budget doesn't seem inflated to me at all.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-19-2011, 09:23 AM
yeah, sorry ensco, i know youre skeptical of all things MLSE but i dont think youve got any proof in your statement, wait until its done and then maybe you might have some points but to jump to conclusions before then isnt useful.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 09:34 AM
Permit fee's, Development charges the list goes on and on... You would be surprised how quickly it adds up.. Usually Marketing and operation come from a different budget, but every project is different.

This.

Ever tried to build a home in Toronto?

The $20 million figure is fair IMO.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 09:35 AM
Actually when all is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if the figure goes up after it is built. It will be interesting to see if they can get it on budget.

McBrace
04-19-2011, 09:40 AM
Actually when all is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if the figure goes up after it is built. It will be interesting to see if they can get it on budget.


That's what I'm thinking as well. 20 Mil doesn't get you a whole lot these days. Especially with the size of this project.

billyfly
04-19-2011, 09:46 AM
That's what I'm thinking as well. 20 Mil doesn't get you a whole lot these days. Especially with the size of this project.

That's what I have been told. I almost don't believe it but I've been told that by people in the field.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-19-2011, 09:57 AM
yep, if theyre selling houses for 500k-a million in my neighbourhood i wouldnt be surprised at all.

note: i live downtown but not in a glamourous part by anymeans

McBrace
04-19-2011, 10:00 AM
That's what I have been told. I almost don't believe it but I've been told that by people in the field.

Estimating is what I do, and a few of us here at the office thought that 20 mil was on the low end, but I haven't seen the full plans.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 10:00 AM
That's what I'm thinking as well. 20 Mil doesn't get you a whole lot these days. Especially with the size of this project.

You can... if you go cheap.

Believe me in about 10-20 years from there will be a boom in the home renovation industry when poorly constructed houses of today will need to be fixed.

But that's an aside.

I'm going to say that the project will end up costing more than $20m.

ensco
04-19-2011, 10:03 AM
^OK if it's your job, I accept that.

Still doesn't deal with the "public use" issue, which nobody seems to mind except me, I understand that.

billyfly
04-19-2011, 10:04 AM
MLSE should build a "green roof" and play on top of the offices.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 10:06 AM
^OK if it's your job, I accept that.

Still doesn't deal with the "public use" issue, which nobody seems to mind except me, I understand that.

I think the public use issue was the only way to get the land to build on.

I don't think it's a big issue.

Whoop
04-19-2011, 10:12 AM
What $60m gets you in suburban Texas.

http://www.allenisd.org/20061061015583133/lib/20061061015583133/Bond%20Project%20Artwork-Files/Stadium%20Update.pdf

Don't think Saputo would cost $14m if it was built in downtown Montreal though.

I mean that's part of the reason MLS teams end up going to the suburbs. Cheaper lander, cheaper building costs.

When I started with the company I'm with we were doing developments in Thornhill, Scarborough, Mississauga, Brampton on a regular basis. 5-6 years later... we're doing developments in Peterborough, St. Catharines, Orillia, Courtice, Port Hope.

It's simple real estate.

I'm sure if TFC wanted to do this facility in Brampton, Mississauga or Scarborough, it would be cheaper.

Auzzy
04-19-2011, 11:06 AM
MLSE should build a "green roof" and play on top of the offices.

The picture in the Star today, does actually show the field house/training centre with a green roof. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in the articles or interviews. It's an artist's drawing, so who knows if it will be in the final plans.

markus
04-19-2011, 07:22 PM
I hope, that they do it once and they do it right...and it's a first class training facility, not like 'our home' BMO Field...

Suds
04-19-2011, 07:35 PM
What $60m gets you in suburban Texas.

http://www.allenisd.org/20061061015583133/lib/20061061015583133/Bond%20Project%20Artwork-Files/Stadium%20Update.pdf




Geez!! Allen ISD was a customer of mine a couple years ago. All I would hear is how they do not have any money. Guess it's all being pumped into the football program.

No need to put technology in the classroom. :rolleyes:

denime
04-19-2011, 09:21 PM
Re new heated grass fields, BMOs cost $3 million. New Fieldturf fields cost $2 million. They're commodities, and their prices don't change much city to city. The other fields are grass and unheated, they're much less, maybe $500K each. Then there's the locker room and offices, that's maybe $3 million. So I can see how you can get to $10 million. Max. Of which half is for TFC only, the other half will be shared.

So when they're talking about $20 million for the community, when they put the pricing in, and the tax breaks, way-below-market lease, and other freebies get disclosed, just remember that the community spend is something more like $2-3 million.

These guys are serious pros, working a broken system very effectively. I'm glad they're doing it, but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable with how they do it.

I wonder where did you read or hear about community use.
In their original plans yes,but there is nowhere to find any community use for this project.
Laying Down Roots (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/laying-down-roots)

TFC Unveil Massive Investment (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/tfc-unveil-massive-investment)

Downsview To Become Academy Home (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/downsview-become-academy-home)

All I found is :

Toronto FC unveiled plans for its new Academy and Training Facility at Downsview Park on Monday. The 14 acre state-of-the-art complex will serve as the primary practice, training and development facility for Toronto FC and its Junior and Senior Academy teams.


The MLSE will pay an annual rent to Downsview for use of the land.


TFC plan on running at least five full-time academy teams – perhaps going as young as U-10 – and expand that pyramid down to as young as U-6 through up to 30 affiliate clubs in the Greater Toronto Area.


http://i51.tinypic.com/o57vyg.jpg


I agree with you that $20 mil seems a bit too much for the facility like this,but this TO.

FreeAgent
04-19-2011, 09:26 PM
I've always been one of the first to jump all over MLSE, from season one when they raised ticket prices and everyone thought that was just fine...anyways...in this case I could not care if they are inflating the price or whatever funny-omics are happening. This is a major announcement for the development of the club and maybe more importantly football in Canada.

For once I'm actually happy we are owned by a rich corporation who may not give a shite most of the time but has taken the initiative to create this academy. I never thought this was possible in 2007.

This. Major props to MLSE.

ag futbol
04-19-2011, 10:25 PM
I agree with you that $20 mil seems a bit too much for the facility like this,but this TO.
Slightly with ensco on this one. It looks good at first glace, but then you think about who your dealing with here, and their previous track record.

Organizations get pretty creative when it comes to the accounting (or should i say marketing?) for this kind of stuff, because it's not like they have to meet GAAP. The paper clips and staplers projected to be used over the next 20 years all of a sudden become three times as expensive and capitalized as part of the investment.

I'd also be careful with the use of the word "primarily" because we easily could have said BMO field was "primarily" for TFC in year 1. But we know there was enough outside use to effectively ruin the use of it for the team. I think "fully dedicated" is more like what we should be looking for.

So I think it's nice that they are building this thing. But I want to see how functional it is the end.

lazlo_80
04-19-2011, 10:32 PM
really? Are we cynical to the point where we're questioning what a private organization is spending on a facility that will benefit the team we love as well as the future of the national team? Seriously?

Call me crazy, but if you don't mind I'd rather get back to the soccer......

Roogsy
04-20-2011, 12:32 AM
Meh...MLSE knows how to work the system and gets a state of the art acaedemy built for the team. That's actually a good thing.

Too bad the soccer crowds will have peetered away by the time the benefits of the new training facility are felt on the pitch.

This facility isn't something I would personally criticize, but it does point to an organization that is still learning as they go. A proper training facility should not be something vaunted, and publicized, it should be a standard operating procedure for a well-organized professional sports franchise. And it certainly isn't something I am impressed with when it comes well into season 6...or VI for TFC staffers.

I am still of the mind that we are giving applause and credit to this orgnanization for doing things that they should be doing anyways, sometimes right from the start. It's all part of this mindset we have been tricked into of being thankful for the team basically doing their jobs. I will laud them when they do something beyond what should be standard and routine.

werewolf
04-20-2011, 12:48 AM
^ I can't wait for Season VII ticket price increases because of "rising costs of the academy". :rolleyes:

ensco
04-20-2011, 06:30 AM
I wonder where did you read or hear about community use.


Haven't seen anything yet, but it's coming.

When you sell or lease public land, there is a process where the specifics of the transaction relating to proposed use, the public interest, community use, and the alternative uses that were examined and discarded, are all laid out, before it can be approved. The site is a hot potato, lots of people have ideas on what that should be used for, it'll be interesting to see if this just sails through or if there's stormy seas ahead. I really don't know.

Oldtimer
04-20-2011, 07:12 AM
^ I can't wait for Season VII ticket price increases because of "rising costs of the academy". :rolleyes:

They are going to have to cut prices, or season ticket renewals will tank.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-20-2011, 07:31 AM
unless they put a championship team on the field

rocker
04-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Haven't seen anything yet, but it's coming.

When you sell or lease public land, there is a process where the specifics of the transaction relating to proposed use, the public interest, community use, and the alternative uses that were examined and discarded, are all laid out, before it can be approved. The site is a hot potato, lots of people have ideas on what that should be used for, it'll be interesting to see if this just sails through or if there's stormy seas ahead. I really don't know.

Isn't it already approved? They are starting construction next month. Downsview has already sent calls out for construction companies to create site services. What stormy seas could exist now?

If other people have ideas on how this site should be used, it's too late. They have to come back in 20 years.

I assume public use will be incorporated through the fact that other teams will come to the facility to play TFC teams. So CSL teams, academy teams from other organizations, etc.

Auzzy
04-20-2011, 01:23 PM
I haven't had time to listen to the complete interview on Fan590 (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/PTS-2011-04-18-5-pm.mp3) but the public-use issue is mentioned there. TFC's new digs are part of a bigger sports complex at Downsview. They said there will be some public use of TFC's fields, and some TFC use of the public fields. Although there's probably a way to spin that as part of some shady money-making conspiracy, it seems to make sense to me. There will likely be different peak times on the different fields -- e.g., youth tournaments in the summer/fall or whatever, that need more space. The public would also benefit from the winter bubble that TFC is apparently paying for. On the other hand, TFC may want to use the public artificial fields early in the season, if the grass fields aren't ready yet. I'll trust that the Downsview sports centre is able to manage this fairly. We shall see I guess.