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View Full Version : (Initial) Praise of Winter/Mariner Thread



Pookie
04-03-2011, 06:44 AM
In reviewing where we are a few short weeks after their hiring, I wanted to pause and offer a comment on our new Management group.

I like what they are doing.

Forget results to this point, though the fact that we are 1-1-1 with a GD of 0 and are second overall in the MLS in Goals For, are eyebrow raising stats considering the newness of the line up. That said, it's way too early to get caught up in that stuff.

I wanted to talk about integrity for a moment.

They talked about being committed to playing a new system. They talked about bringing in youth that could play the system. They talked about leveraging scouting and their connections. They talked about the concept of team and building a culture that supports the above.

To this point, their decisions have been difficult but consistent with those stated goals.

I applaud them for sticking to what they said they would do and I have to have optimism that their vision will be realized.

denime
04-03-2011, 07:02 AM
^ What he said , :iagree:

Batman
04-03-2011, 07:04 AM
Well said. I would add that they did this while dealing with a few players that were disgruntled because of sins of PAST management, an initial roster that had few completely functional components, some members of the media hell bent on creating even more controversy, and fans that have about 50 years of MLSE resentment and frustration and 4 years of TFC ineptitude fostering a general feeling of impatience and suspicion.

It's a tough gig, and I sure wish as a group of supporters we'd spend a bit more time supporting them a lot less time arguing the pros and cons of DeRo or who we want axed this week.

TFC_Chris
04-03-2011, 07:07 AM
I concur. Harumph!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY

torontocelt
04-03-2011, 07:40 AM
In reviewing where we are a few short weeks after their hiring, I wanted to pause and offer a comment on our new Management group.

I like what they are doing.

Forget results to this point, though the fact that we are 1-1-1 with a GD of 0 and are second overall in the MLS in Goals For, are eyebrow raising stats considering the newness of the line up. That said, it's way too early to get caught up in that stuff.

I wanted to talk about integrity for a moment.

They talked about being committed to playing a new system. They talked about bringing in youth that could play the system. They talked about leveraging scouting and their connections. They talked about the concept of team and building a culture that supports the above.

To this point, their decisions have been difficult but consistent with those stated goals.

I applaud them for sticking to what they said they would do and I have to have optimism that their vision will be realized.

Well considering they still have some players who are just not good enough and considering that they have players playing out of position also then they have done okay so far. I am sure that the squad is still not near where they would like it to realistically be at this point in terms of personnel. You are right also in that they have not had the time as of yet. However your optimism can also be brought down by:

We have played what is thought to be 3 of the poorest teams in the league, we only have 4 points from a possible 9.

We are usually very poor on the road and good at home, we have already dropped 2 out of 6 points at home, we really need to winning all of our home games against weaker opposition.

We are not second top scorers in the MLS, this is just not true. We are joint third top scorers. Above us are Kansas, Vacouver and we are joint with Real Salt Lake.

We have conceded 5 against us against the so called poorer teams.

Once again the squad is being molded during the actual season rather than before the season, this will count against us.

We have lost our best player.

I am more than willing to give the management team well and I too like what they are trying to do but it is going to be a long, hard season for TFC. Last week I commented that if you want to stop TFC then you have to stop the wingers, we seen yesterday how that happened in the second half of the game and TFC looked lacking in creativity. Once teams figure that out I think we will see TFC really struggling.

I really hope things work out for this management team though, you are right in that they do seem to have a clear vision and MLS rules force they to try and accomplish their vision with their hands tied behind their backs. Good luck to Winter etc and thanks for the hard work so far.

menefreghista
04-03-2011, 07:42 AM
This thread is a little presumptuous at this point. Paticularly the part about integrity. There is no proof of that yet. Just because they got rid of the player the OP hated doesn't mean they have integrity.

And let's not get into the fact that they have now told us a couple of white lies about saving cap space in both the Barrett and De Rosario trades.

ensco
04-03-2011, 07:51 AM
This thread is a little presumptuous at this point. Paticularly the part about integrity. There is no proof of that yet. Just because they got rid of the player the OP hated doesn't mean they have integrity.

And let's not get into the fact that they have now told us a couple of white lies about saving cap space in both the Barrett and De Rosario trades.

Yes. All we know is who the boss is. Fine. We get it.

Even against Portland we didn't look that good. Be interesting to see what this thread looks like when we're 3-6-4 or something, which I fear is what our record will be in a month, based on how we've looked so far.

menefreghista
04-03-2011, 07:53 AM
Yes. All we know is who the boss is. Fine. We get it.

Even against Portland we didn't look that good. Be interesting to see what this thread looks like when we're 3-8-2 or something, which I fear is what our record will be in a month.

In two home matches now we've had long stretches of play where we were being dominated and pinned in our own end by sides that are considered weaker in this league. Good play by Frei and some great counter-attacking plays have masked how poor we have looked overall.

The funny thing is that I actually think we are playing more of an Italian style than a Dutch style. I don't really care though, I just want results. Being in Italy for a long time has rubbed off on Winter.

Pookie
04-03-2011, 08:05 AM
^ all a matter of how you spin it though isn't it? In two home matches now, technically speaking, we are undefeated.

Again, it is way too early to get caught up in stats at this point. We expect a rough year so that's fine.

What I want to focus on is that the group is doing what they said. Leveraging contacts and bringing in players like Martina and Stevanovic.

Like it or not, team first means that they have to put their feet down with respect to contract issues. You claim I hate DeRo, that's not the case but that's fine.

I have the utmost respect for Adrian Cann who personally took time to talk with my son about a mutual coach they have, my son's development and offered words of encouragement that saw him decide to leave hockey to focus on his soccer. When Cann walked away, I was disappointed and crossed my fingers it could work out. I agreed with everything Winter had to say on the subject as it was consistent with his view that you don't walk out on your teammates.

So, I started this thread not to debate that player that has moved on but to put some focus back on the team we are supposedly supporting. And in the regard, there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic.

If you choose not to be that's fine but you aren't going to piss all over my cornflakes on this subject. Winter and Mariner have done a good job to this point.

canadian_bhoy
04-03-2011, 08:09 AM
I love the new system. I'm looking forward to Winter all summer long!

He actually makes subs, good ones. We're a young team instead of the oldest. We're a goalscorer and a defender away from
Being good.

ensco
04-03-2011, 08:10 AM
^The more Winter feels he is "on track", the more likely he is to throw 2011 away. Which I think he's mostly already done (not talking about the Dero trade per se).

canadian_bhoy
04-03-2011, 08:12 AM
I love the new system. I'm looking forward to Winter all summer long!

He actually makes subs, good ones. We're a young team instead of the oldest. We're a goalscorer and a defender away from
Being good.

torontocelt
04-03-2011, 08:15 AM
I love the new system. I'm looking forward to Winter all summer long!

He actually makes subs, good ones. We're a young team instead of the oldest. We're a goalscorer and a defender away from
Being good.

I would say we are still some more players away from being good. Our squad is full of players who are not good enough plus on top of that our squad is still thread bare with some players still being played out of position. Football is a squad game, as it stands our first team is still not of a high enough standard and our overall squad is lacking. i shudder to think what will happen if we have a few suspensions or injuries to key players, a season is long and we are not equipped to deal with it yet.

GeorgeBest
04-03-2011, 08:30 AM
I think it's too early to say much. I have been observing the new system from the stands for the past two games and the only prediction I am willing to make for this season is that at some point one of our back four will pass the ball into his own net.

Phil
04-03-2011, 08:31 AM
I think Winter has a big job ahead of him and he is now just starting to grasp the complexity and challenges within the MLS and MLSE.

I like what I see so far. Going to matches this year is better IMO than most of the games last year. At a point in the Chivas game, you could see the other team literally chasing the ball as a team and we were just passing it around. That was a great moment along with seeing all the wide play and players running off the ball. Now if only we had less give aways and more consistant play, full understading of the system and a deeper pool of players....oh wait. That is Winters job and it will be intersting to see how he does it.

:D

mdc 77
04-03-2011, 08:33 AM
I love the new system. I'm looking forward to Winter all summer long!

He actually makes subs, good ones. We're a young team instead of the oldest. We're a goalscorer and a defender away from
Being good.

What he said...and to add, Winter says nobody is bigger than the club...and I believe that he himself thinks this.

All things which will help us become a winner and a consistent one at that. For the first time with this club I feel confident in the people running it, I trust them. :scarf:

Suds
04-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Initial work they have done to date I'm more happy than not, however, it's way too early to make any judgment.

I'll save that for the end of year recap and when we can look at where they started and where they ended up over the course of a full season.

tfc2008
04-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Guys wat you crying

You know all in the beginning that it is all to 0 a new start and then you guys thinking we gone win all the home games and that everyone know wat he have to do on the field.
Patient is a word that nobody know in Canada

bdiddy
04-03-2011, 09:08 AM
I'm pretty happy so far about the results. I Like the fact that when TFC were down 4-1 in Vancouver, they still pushed forward and put another one in. When in other years, that team would have given up.

I really think that's a testiment to Winter, play hard and your in, don't and your out. I think theirs a different respect from the players to this coach than in the past. Especially becuase I think he keeps to his word.

And in all honesty, I think the dis-honest person is DeRo. Taking advantage of us fans (cheque signing fiasco, taking off to Scotland, contract situation and then trying to tell us he didn't ask for a trade). I think he was partially right in many of those situations, but exagerated too much to make himself look like a victim.

I don't feel sorry for professional sports players, sign a contract. You play for that contact and don't think to renegotiate every year your here.

brad
04-03-2011, 09:09 AM
I love the new system. I'm looking forward to Winter all summer long!

He actually makes subs, good ones. We're a young team instead of the oldest. We're a goalscorer and a defender away from
Being good.

I actually think we are around 10-15 games of playing time away from being good with the current squad. A lot of what broke down yesterday in the midfield was due to the players lack of familiarity with each other. I think we you add a goal scorer and a defender to the mix, and we are on the way to being really good.

scooterTFC
04-03-2011, 09:11 AM
Initial work they have done to date I'm more happy than not, however, it's way too early to make any judgment.

I'll save that for the end of year recap and when we can look at where they started and where they ended up over the course of a full season.
Yes his would be the fair way to do things. But if the losses pile up I guarantee we won't be waiting to the end of the year :)

Short term observations:
-Training - quick progress on implementation on their possession oriented system leads me to believe the Winter and DeClerk are probably good at coaching/training side of things -working with the players in training.

-Squad Selection - There have been a few player selection and substitution decisions that seem to be a little questionable (Cann@ LB, Harden @ RB, using players that haven't trained with the team in games etc). You could argue the roster has forced his hand, and that he's experimenting. Or you could argue his judegment has been poor in a few instances. As a career assistant, squad selection is a new responsibility for Winter.

Kaz
04-03-2011, 09:26 AM
Say what you want about the DeRo trade, but we were lacking in the back particularly left back, and it brought in a left back and well as a midfielder. Of the two players only one counts against the cap and we freed up 400k in salary cap(maybe a little less)? that's enough for another DP striker, or two or three more players to help even things out, or some raises, or a combination there off. worse case is DeRo leaves and we get 3 players this year and one more next year, to help build the team. It sucks would a nice to see DeRo finish here, but it wasn't a bad long term move.

It was actually a fairly strong financial and long term choice. I think the timing of it was bad, It should have happened tomorrow not Friday. But really that is the only thing that I have issue with about the team so far.

I'm really optimistic with what I've seen on the pitch, the attendence yesterday was sad to see, but I know I'm going to try to make it to every home game I can this year. Because I want to see this squad evolve, I think second half of the season when they are use to the system they are going to be a force.

CretanBull
04-03-2011, 09:42 AM
I think that there's reason to be hopefull, but IMO we're much further away than others seem to think.

The good news is that we're young, and for the most part there's competition for playing time - those two factors combined should mean that we don't see any half-assed performances.

The bad news is that we lost to one expansion team, beat another, and drew a home game vs. the worst team in the West (the 1pm game would have felt like it was 11am to them). Still not getting points on the road, still not getting the points we should get at home.

I agree with the OP that results don't matter as much as things like player developement etc. but we've all seen how poor results effect the morale, cohesion etc. of the team and that's probably going to be Winter's biggest challenge.

Roogsy
04-03-2011, 10:11 AM
The style is definitely better. But it's so like Toronto fans to hail these changes as being the solution. We still don't know if this style will be effective in this league. And its also like Toronto fans to hail moves that they agree with as having no risk whatsoever. People need to realize there IS a risk here. If this direction is not the right one or if Winter bails out of frustration with the refs, skill-level, MLSE or anything else, we're left back at square one with another multi-year plan down the drain and little to show for it after years of existance.

I respect what Vancouver has done a whole lot more than what we have done so far.

kaos197O
04-03-2011, 10:13 AM
Need much more time before I can praise them. So far it's no different than any other year for TFC. Complete dismantling of entire squad, including coach, and a new sales pitch of what the vision is. Results are not there yet. Not even close. But I don't expect results overnight. I think that an initial assessment would be fair half way through the season. Even then it's a stretch but......

I have always hated the revolving door of coaches here. It's impossible to base an opinion on any of them when they were never really given more than 6 months to try and implement their system and had to do it with players who were brought in to play the last coaches system. It's been a bloody circus and I feel bad for all the coaches, players, but especially us fans who have had to endure this bullshit. This is why we need new leadership, someone who is passionate about the sport and not just profits. Based on my assessment of MLSE (an entity that I can form and assessment or opinion on) I'm not sure they'll ever truly care about this Team from any other perspective than a monetary one.

MLSE seems to be listening though(on some levels) and will likely keep Winter and Co. around long enough for us to actually give a TRUE assessment of their abilities and we deserve that. The coaches, the players, the fans! We ALL deserve some form of stability. Time to adjust to OUR team and OUR style of play. Time to adjust to each other and get to know each other. Time to build a relationship, us with the team, the team with the coaching staff, the coaching staff with the fans. WE DESERVE THAT! Even if MLSE only cares about $$$$$$'s they all of "US", the people that they are cashing in on, MORE.

For now I remain optimistic but it's become very difficult not to be cynical about the direction of my beloved team's future. I hope I'll get the opportunity to give an honest assessment of Winter and Mariner at some point. It would truly be refreshing!

rocker
04-03-2011, 10:24 AM
What I've learned from watching MLS is never to get too high or too low.

I'm always reminded of Chicago before they signed Blanco. They were shitty. They were out of the playoffs. They were a sub-500 team with a new coach (Osorio). Then in July they brought in Blanco and improved greatly and made the playoffs. I remember FC Dallas tying so many games in the early season, but improving and winning games late in the season.

I'm also reminded that two coaches who get much praise around these parts: Jason Kreis and Sigi Schmidt, were given much more time than Winter seems to have thanks to the fervent fan base here, to destroy rosters and rebuild in Salt Lake and Columbus. Those two well-respected coaches did not get off to good starts in their rebuilding. They would have been fired without their owners' patience.

Roogsy
04-03-2011, 10:39 AM
And let's remember about all that praise that Preki was getting at the beginning of the year. :rolleyes:

I will wait until the end of the year thank you.

rocker
04-03-2011, 10:41 AM
And let's remember about all that praise that Preki was getting at the beginning of the year. :rolleyes:

I will wait until the end of the year thank you.

You'll wait until the end of the year to judge Winter and Mariner? Finally some sense in ya! ;)

ExiledRed
04-03-2011, 10:43 AM
Patient is a word that nobody know in Canada

Doesnt look like you know many words at all.

To say Canadians are impatient is the funniest thing I read all fucking year.

Roogsy
04-03-2011, 10:48 AM
You'll wait until the end of the year to judge Winter and Mariner? Finally some sense in ya! ;)

Odd...it has been my position all along?

Now how about some sense in everyone else already praising these guys as saviours? That's exactly how we started with Mo and look where it lead us. Once bitten, twice shy. Show me something before I put any trust in you, especially since this is still TFC.

sashavukelich
04-03-2011, 10:48 AM
Pookie - I concur! I think we are on course for some serious organizational/on field improvement throughout the year and i'm pleased that Winter/Mariner are the Talismans of the NEW TFC.

What he's doing isn't just good for TFC, it's great for Toronto and Canadian soccer!!!

Roogsy
04-03-2011, 10:49 AM
Doesnt look like you know many words at all.

To say Canadians are impatient is the funniest thing I read all fucking year.

lols@ both points.

Hustle
04-03-2011, 10:50 AM
I am optimistic. Winter is not preki and Mariner is not mo. Don't be jaded..about Dero...they made the best of a bad situation they did not create. We are on the right track.

ag futbol
04-03-2011, 11:10 AM
Now how about some sense in everyone else already praising these guys as saviours? That's exactly how we started with Mo and look where it lead us. Once bitten, twice shy. Show me something before I put any trust in you, especially since this is still TFC.
i concur.

No judgement passed as of yet but no praise either. The plan seems to be long term in nature, so I won't pass full judgement even after one year. I can wait longer to get something better. However, I think its worth noting this is all ultimately coming from an organization which has sold many long-term plans over the past few years, none of which have come off as successful.

Interesting contrast coming out of this board, compared to a couple weeks ago against Vancouver when everyone was on suicide watch.

ManUtd4ever
04-03-2011, 11:11 AM
In reviewing where we are a few short weeks after their hiring, I wanted to pause and offer a comment on our new Management group.

I like what they are doing.

Forget results to this point, though the fact that we are 1-1-1 with a GD of 0 and are second overall in the MLS in Goals For, are eyebrow raising stats considering the newness of the line up. That said, it's way too early to get caught up in that stuff.

I wanted to talk about integrity for a moment.

They talked about being committed to playing a new system. They talked about bringing in youth that could play the system. They talked about leveraging scouting and their connections. They talked about the concept of team and building a culture that supports the above.

To this point, their decisions have been difficult but consistent with those stated goals.

I applaud them for sticking to what they said they would do and I have to have optimism that their vision will be realized.

Well said. I haven't agreed entirely with all of Winter's coaching decisions, such as playing Cann at LB in the opener, or Santos in the hole yesterday, but I'm sure he will make the right adjustments as he continues to evaluate the strenghts and weaknesses of individuals on the club.

As for player recruitment, I have the utmost confidence in Winter and Mariner's ability to identify areas of weakness on the roster and bring the appropriate players to fill a specific need, which is an issue that has haunted this franchise for many years. My optimism is based on the quality of the players thave have been acquired thus far. Martina, Zavarise, Gordon, Yourassowsky, Tchani, Borman, and Williams have all been impressive additions to the lineup.

At the moment, as a result of the DeRo trade, I believe there are now two positions in the starting lineup that need to upgraded, at AM and RB. If Winter and Mariner can fill those two voids in the lineup, it will represent a remarkeable job of rebuilding the roster within the timeframe that the new management regime was given.

DucthTFCFan
04-03-2011, 11:15 AM
I like what Winter is doing so far. I enjoyed watching Martina in the preseason, even if other teams play hard on our wingers I think both Martina and Stanovic have the skill and foot control to get themselves into space. I also thought it looked like Tchani had the ball glued to his feet and played well, a great pick up in a trade for Dero. I look forward to watching this team grow. I can guarantee this team will be better in the future. Get these guys playing together in Winter's system and you will see a steady improvement.

The Chivas game got ugly at points but considering 3 out of the 11 starters joined the team in less then 8 days and when Williams, JDG and Plata came on in the second half there were even more new faces they played as good as you could hope.