Post Game Woohaaha: Toronto FC vs Portland Timbers- Mar.26, 2011

[Pachuco]

Before we get into a pissing match, let's just highlight where we are agreed:

- Gargan appears to be having some early season challenges
- His work ethic and energy appear to be consistent with last year
- While his salary is low, there are other $40k players who are after his job and should he continue to struggle, they should be given a shot

?

On the disagreement front:

- I have a hard time calling out a player, who by definition of his contract will make mistakes and be inconsistent. It seems unfair to ask him to be something he isn't paid to be... consistent.
- You are ok with holding him to the same standard you held for him last year

?

Let me address the ones where we disagree as you are right on the ones we agree on.


1. I don't understand your logic to be honest. I'm not sure how the value of a player determines how consistent he's supposed to be. At 40K last year, Gargan was a pretty consistent player. We knew exactly what we were getting and most people were happy with that. So far this year, he's been consistently bad.


Where I wholeheartedly disagree with you though is where you say 40K player is a 40K player, so if Gargan isn't very good then that's ok, because he makes 40k. Where I think you really miss the point is here:


40K player under Preki's system is expected to do one thing and expected to play a certain way. 40K player under Winter's system may mean that Preki's 40K player needs to be replaced with someone who can play Winter's system.


So you just seem to concentrate quite a bit on the fact he makes 40K, and ignore the fact that maybe he's just not a good fit.


For example Harden. In my mind he sucks ass, he's terrible. I would love to see him get the boot and see Winter bring in another 40K player who can fit under his system. I would rather see an Academy kid playing any day over Harden. And no, that's not my opinion of Gargan at all.

[Pookie]

Pook, you're undoing your own argument. We're in a capped league, remember? Can't just arbitrarily decide that $40K is not good enough for someone better than Gargan, so let's go out and spend double that on a salary.

No, you are missing my point about the budget.

You can decide that $40k is not the right base but would have to cut the salary of a Manager in order to fit it all under your budget. That's effectively the cap.

In practical terms, is DeRo/JDG + Gargan a better spend than $200k player #1 + $200k player #2?


What they can do is say "we need to take a really hard long look at how we're spending this money and whether Gargan is the right way to spend it." That's more likely, and that's what leaves us better off.

Sure and that goes to scouting and recruiting. Bring in a young player on a minimum salary and live through the growing pains. Eventually, you'll have to increase his salary though (like Nana) if he succeeds. Over the short term though, you can get lucky if you are strong in scouting.

But on average, you are going to get inconsistency at that price point. Just like hiring a kid just out of University to be a Rep for you. He's got a lot to learn, will need a ton of coaching and if he is good, you'll promote him and pay him more. He will however, be replaced with another recent Grad and most likely with the same challenges as the last kid had when he started.

If you are able to offer a higher price point, you can start to demand consistency and experience in your hires. The downside of course is that you won't be able to fit the big salaried guys into your mix because of your overall budget.

[v00d00daddy]

Dan Gargan is a hard worker and seems pretty tough and he only makes 40k but all of that is pointless if he can't play a possession style game.

If he can't trap and pass with both feet he's useless to us. At 40k a year or at 4k a year.

He's not skilled enough to start anywhere on our team (d or mid) if we plan on playing a possession styled game.

I'm sorry...but I don't even think this is just opinion. He, flat out, doesn't have the skill base to contribute in an effective manner.

At 40k he should be on our bench to come on as a sub to run down the opposition in the last 5 minutes of match where we're up a goal or two.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

dont think we're rid of him this year but dont think we'll see him next year unless he improves massively

[TFCRegina]

I agree - but this isn't about Gargan making one bad pass. He's made a number of stupid giveaways over the last two games, costing us a goal in one and creating a prime scoring opportunity in the other, only to be bailed out by Frei.

I don't think I'm being unfair when I say Gargan is playing poorly right now.

Also about Gargan being caught hopelessly out of position either through mental mistakes or through physical inability to run that fast.

[ManUtd4ever]

Gargan is as good as gone after this season.

[Roogsy]

Dan Gargan is a hard worker and seems pretty tough and he only makes 40k but all of that is pointless if he can't play a possession style game.

If he can't trap and pass with both feet he's useless to us. At 40k a year or at 4k a year.

He's not skilled enough to start anywhere on our team (d or mid) if we plan on playing a possession styled game.

I'm sorry...but I don't even think this is just opinion. He, flat out, doesn't have the skill base to contribute in an effective manner.

At 40k he should be on our bench to come on as a sub to run down the opposition in the last 5 minutes of match where we're up a goal or two.


Something we can agree on.

[v00d00daddy]

Something we can agree on.


hahaha

cheers

[Beach_Red]

Your other choice is to find an average priced Manager and average priced Janitor and run your business that way.

To add one more layer of complication to this, in the case of MLS teams you have to define "run your business." For some teams roster decisions, such as paying for Designated Players, have more to do with selling tickets than winning games. Sure, they hope it results in winning more games, but the priority is selling tickets.

So, while more players at the median salary might make for a better team, if that team doesn't win the championship (and only team one can), would the ticket sales department have been happier with a few 40k players and some DPs they could use in marketing?

[TFC07]

Gragan is as good as gone after this season.

I don't think he will even last this season ( I am assuming we are going to get couple of more players in summer).

[jloome]

All of this debate just reiterates the point often made that judging to extreme is usually pretty useless. "He sucks" is pretty foolish when you're talking about a profession at which 99% of the public could never succeed. Even someone who sucks is pretty damn good.

Take Ty Harden. Since he's been with TFC, I've been unable to see much positive outside his work ethic. His movement seems stiff and slow, his positioning is not perfect, his passing is mediocre, his tackling merely OK and he's not that big or good in the air.

However, in 2007, he started 24 games for the Galaxy and was their defender of the year. True, they sucked. But Harden didn't. He was -- as with Sturgis in Seattle last year -- seen as a plodder who had managed to step it up a notch.

Then he had his religious epiphany and went off and did missionary work. Is it likely he's a radically different player for taking 18 months off? No. But here, we think he sucks, while LA fans really liked him.

Some guys are just very borderline, professionally, and while they look great in one system where only one or two of their flaws are exposed, they look awful in another.

Given the league's salary structure, there are going to be a LOT of these guys around. Edson Buddle was shit in Columbus, shit in Toronto....and scored 17 in L.A. Now he's in Germany and he's riding the bench in the second division.

Paulo Nagamura was shit at Toronto, then everyone thought he was great at Chivas...for about 18 months and now he's just seen as a plodder.

There are a few guys who are still seen as being among the plodder ranks but probably aren't: Wondolowski has now broken out of that; Geoff Cameron and Brad Davis in Houston could probably pull a Stu Holden and go overseas.

But most guys are North American players: they started as youth with competitive matches early instead of learning the basics, so they're strong, aggressive and competitive, but have no technical base and even worse reading of the pitch. In one system, they'll look great, in another, like they're lost and always trying to catch up.

The guys who are a step above, who have the fight but also either the technical skill, or the speed, or the read of the game, are the ones who get a shot overseas and break out.

Everyone else? They're Dan Gargan; Nathan Sturgis; Richard Mulrooney; Nick Garcia etc etc. You might get greatness out of them, but don't count on it. And don't count on one to really mean much more to a team than the others.

[bgnewf]

TFC v Portland Video Blog

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/03/tfc-v-portland-video-blog/

My flu delayed video blog from the TFC victory over Portland.