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View Full Version : Aron Winter 1 on 1 with James Sharman



parma
03-23-2011, 09:28 AM
Caught this via James Sharman twitter

http://video.thescore.com/watch/aron-winter-1-on-1

DangerRed
03-23-2011, 09:34 AM
There you have it, on the record, Winter says the rebuild will take a year.

Suds
03-23-2011, 09:38 AM
Well, if anyone though it was going to happen in 6 weeks they were delusional.

DangerRed
03-23-2011, 09:41 AM
^I will point you to the POST-GAME RANT thread.

Red CB Toronto
03-23-2011, 09:42 AM
I love how Coach Winter has conducted himself so far, good times are ahead for the Reds, that is for sure. He knows what he wants and will work hard to get it.

Carts
03-23-2011, 09:44 AM
I am so sick of "rebuilding"...

And like I say about another Toronto team that is always rebuilding...

"ITS NOT REBUILDING IF YOU ALWAYS SUCK" :facepalm:

But, we need to have some hope - otherwise there is nothing...

And Winter & his staff has the background and knowledge to do something...

So, celebrate goals like major titles like we did in year-1...???

Carts...

DangerRed
03-23-2011, 09:48 AM
You can't really do anything else but suck it up at this point. Having said that, I'll bet you anything that there'll be serious rioting on this board if we shit the bed on Saturday.

Carts
03-23-2011, 09:49 AM
You can't really do anything else but suck it up at this point. Having said that, I'll bet you anything that there'll be serious rioting on this board if we shit the bed on Saturday.

Absolutely agree 100%, unfortunately...

denime
03-23-2011, 09:52 AM
You can't really do anything else but suck it up at this point. Having said that, I'll bet you anything that there'll be serious rioting on this board if we shit the bed on Saturday.


Not, if board(server) crash again.:leaving:

ManUtd4ever
03-23-2011, 10:04 AM
You can't really do anything else but suck it up at this point. Having said that, I'll bet you anything that there'll be serious rioting on this board if we shit the bed on Saturday.


Absolutely agree 100%, unfortunately...

It's totally understandable if people are frustrated following a loss, especially if we lose to an expansion team in our home opener.

What I find mind numbing and pointless is when people have nothing to contribute other than a random rant against the organization, as opposed to being analytical or critical of roster decisions, tactics, individual player performances, etc.

TFC/Everton
03-23-2011, 10:04 AM
How can we be rebuilding when we didn't have anything built to begin with? Its more like, another year of building, not rebuilding.

Detroit_TFC
03-23-2011, 10:15 AM
^ This.

If we had a team that functioned better as a team, we wouldn't be in this mess. Hopefully Winter & Co can make that happen.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 10:21 AM
What I find mind numbing and pointless is when people have nothing to contribute other than a random rant against the organization, as opposed to being analytical or critical of roster decisions, tactics, individual player performances, etc.

yes this right here

Ageroo
03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Just for Carts.....

#REBUILDING :thumbsup:

Beach_Red
03-23-2011, 10:35 AM
It's totally understandeable if people are frustrated following a loss, especially if we lose to an expansion team in our home opener.

What I find mind numbing and pointless is when people have nothing to contribute other than a random rant against the organization, as opposed to being analytical or critical of roster decisions, tactics, individual player performances, etc.


There is a lot of residual anger left over from the first four years. The problems went way beyond roster decisions, tactics and individual players and coaches and people vented about that. The good thing is those bigger problems were finally addressed and now it does come down to roster decision, tactics, etc..

But people will still vent.

Suds
03-23-2011, 10:43 AM
There is a lot of residual anger left over from the first four years. The problems went way beyond roster decisions, tactics and individual players and coaches and people vented about that. The good thing is those bigger problems were finally addressed and now it does come down to roster decision, tactics, etc..

But people will still vent.

I can completely understand that. Like many others I'm very frustrated as well.

I guess I'm willing to not burden the new management with the mistakes made in the past. Their job has been made twice as hard because they have to deal with the hangover of the past four years as well as trying to build something new.

I'm giving them some slack. It's up to them to work with it and decide if they use it to pull the team out or make a noose. :D

swan
03-23-2011, 10:47 AM
How can we be rebuilding when we didn't have anything built to begin with? Its more like, another year of building, not rebuilding.


the team was built before we did mange to play ( gonna get some stick for that) for the last 4 years but it just was not good at all so yes it's rebuilding in my eyes anyway...

TFCRegina
03-23-2011, 11:22 AM
I am so sick of "rebuilding"...

And like I say about another Toronto team that is always rebuilding...

"ITS NOT REBUILDING IF YOU ALWAYS SUCK" :facepalm:

But, we need to have some hope - otherwise there is nothing...

And Winter & his staff has the background and knowledge to do something...

So, celebrate goals like major titles like we did in year-1...???

Carts...

Celebrate other teams' misses and saves by our own keeper seems more appropriate at this point. We didn't seem to have much trouble scoring. A lot of our shots were blocked but would have otherwise been on target in that Vancouver match.

Serb_Star
03-23-2011, 11:45 AM
A year? LOL what a generous estimate.

Pigfynn
03-23-2011, 11:48 AM
A year? LOL what a generous estimate.


Wow, why bother even supporting a team eh?

there is no hope! it's all soooooooooo wrong and terrible.

This board is a fucking crazy house sometimes.

Whoop
03-23-2011, 11:49 AM
It's the MLS, a year is sufficient.

I think the team would have been further ahead had a GM and/or coach been in place right at the end of the season.

But that's in the past now. Just have to look forward.

Beach_Red
03-23-2011, 11:52 AM
It's the MLS, a year is sufficient.

I think the team would have been further ahead had a GM and/or coach been in place right at the end of the season.




Why do you think that? (not being sarcastic or anything, it's an honest question). Many people are saying the reason a rebuild is going to take so long is because of the players on guaranteed contracts that can't be moved and the cap space they take up. What difference would a GM coming in right at the end of the season instead of January have made?

Serb_Star
03-23-2011, 12:00 PM
Wow, why bother even supporting a team eh?

there is no hope! it's all soooooooooo wrong and terrible.

This board is a fucking crazy house sometimes.

So you think that at the start of next season we'll be a well-oiled machine that's poised for a playoff run? it's going to take longer than a year to implement a new system with the right players.

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Why do you think that? (not being sarcastic or anything, it's an honest question). Many people are saying the reason a rebuild is going to take so long is because of the players on guaranteed contracts that can't be moved and the cap space they take up. What difference would a GM coming in right at the end of the season instead of January have made?

I'd be curious to know who these players are that are making the rebuild take longer. TFC coaches time and time again have proven that if they don't want a player, there is always a way to get rid of that player. JDG is probably the only exception but Winter is big on JDG and thinks he's the perfect player for his system.

So this is where I say people who make this statement are greatly exagerating the roster issues Winter has. Preki had a much worse situation and he managed to clear out all the overpaid Carver and Cummins players (atleast in his mind they were overpaid).

Winter isn't signing academy players because that's all he can afford. He's signing these kids because he believes it's the way to build for the future.

TFCRegina
03-23-2011, 12:13 PM
I'd be curious to know who these players are that are making the rebuild take longer. TFC coaches time and time again have proven that if they don't want a player, there is always a way to get rid of that player. JDG is probably the only exception but Winter is big on JDG and thinks he's the perfect player for his system.

So this is where I say people who make this statement are greatly exagerating the roster issues Winter has. Preki had a much worse situation and he managed to clear out all the overpaid Carver and Cummins players (atleast in his mind they were overpaid).

Winter isn't signing academy players because that's all he can afford. He's signing these kids because he believes it's the way to build for the future.

Also because he needed players on the team to meet a quota set by the MLSPA so the club could avoid litigation. We're at the bare minimum right now.

Pigfynn
03-23-2011, 12:17 PM
So you think that at the start of next season we'll be a well-oiled machine that's poised for a playoff run? it's going to take longer than a year to implement a new system with the right players.

Never said that.

Do I think that the new system (which includes a mentality as well as playing style) will be implemented to a much larger degree? Absolutlely.

Then we judge.

Whoop
03-23-2011, 12:19 PM
Why do you think that? (not being sarcastic or anything, it's an honest question). Many people are saying the reason a rebuild is going to take so long is because of the players on guaranteed contracts that can't be moved and the cap space they take up. What difference would a GM coming in right at the end of the season instead of January have made?

If someone had been in charge since November (and everyone knew that Cochrane wasn't the guy) it would have been easier to look at players, follow up on players, etc. during that time span.

Hell, maybe have a camp like Vancouver did.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 12:20 PM
part of it is that ALL players need to learn the system as well as where people can be expected to run etc, more or less learn each other inside and out in the system as well. cant really speculate how long that takes, id imagine more than 2 months, and im sure the longer the players practice it, play in it the better they get, just like anything else

ManUtd4ever
03-23-2011, 12:33 PM
I'd be curious to know who these players are that are making the rebuild take longer. TFC coaches time and time again have proven that if they don't want a player, there is always a way to get rid of that player. JDG is probably the only exception but Winter is big on JDG and thinks he's the perfect player for his system.

So this is where I say people who make this statement are greatly exagerating the roster issues Winter has. Preki had a much worse situation and he managed to clear out all the overpaid Carver and Cummins players (atleast in his mind they were overpaid).

Winter isn't signing academy players because that's all he can afford. He's signing these kids because he believes it's the way to build for the future.

It's because of the new CBA Pachuco. Based on my understanding, players with 3 or more years of MLS experience are on guaranteed contracts, and can't just be released as in past years.

Unless there are MLS clubs willing to trade for guys like Harden, Peterson, and Gargan, we're stuck with them in the short term until their contracts expire.

C.Ronaldo
03-23-2011, 12:42 PM
i can handle losing if i wasnt paying out of my arse in ticket prices

Beach_Red
03-23-2011, 12:42 PM
If someone had been in charge since November (and everyone knew that Cochrane wasn't the guy) it would have been easier to look at players, follow up on players, etc. during that time span.

Hell, maybe have a camp like Vancouver did.

Well, sure, it's given that more prep time is better. But would they have been able to have a camp like Vancouver? Wasn't Vancouver only able to do that because they were still technically a USL team and the MLS CBA didn't apply? TFC starting the pre-season the same time as every other MLS team, didn't they?

I guess the real question is more about what Mariner and Winter have done since they took over and what more they could have done with two extra months? Could they have brough in more players? Could they have scouted more?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 12:55 PM
^^^^^^^^^
all reasonable questions

mickyredpatch
03-23-2011, 12:55 PM
good interview!

Pigfynn
03-23-2011, 12:59 PM
i can handle losing if i wasnt paying out of my arse in ticket prices

This.

This is what needs rectifying.

Ask us for patience, fine..honour that patience with prices that reflect where this club ACTUALLY is.

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 01:03 PM
It's because of the new CBA Pachuco. Based on my understanding, players with 3 or more years of MLS experience are on guaranteed contracts, and can't just be released as in past years.

Unless there are MLS clubs willing to trade for guys like Harden, Peterson, and Gargan, we're stuck with them in the short term until their contracts expire.

Well, this is exactly my point. Harden, Peterson and Gargan amount to significant cap problems? have you looked at how much these guys make? We traded Barrett on an overpriced salary, I have no doubt we could trade these guys for a bag of pucks and get rid of their minimal salaries. Not that it matters anyways, their salaries put together does not amount to any cap problem. Winter has it easy compared to the mess Preki had.

So again, I refuse to believe Winter's struggling with contracts that are left over. Only some people on this site will use that as an excuse.

Don't get me wrong, the rebuild will probably take a year, but not because of the contracts we have today, it's because of the guys we haven't found yet and because of a significant change in the system we play. I think Winter is being optimistic by saying one year. This has 3 year plan written all over it.

ManUtd4ever
03-23-2011, 01:16 PM
Well, this is exactly my point. Harden, Peterson and Gargan amount to significant cap problems? have you looked at how much these guys make? We traded Barrett on an overpriced salary, I have no doubt we could trade these guys for a bag of pucks and get rid of their minimal salaries. Not that it matters anyways, their salaries put together does not amount to any cap problem. Winter has it easy compared to the mess Preki had.

So again, I refuse to believe Winter's struggling with contracts that are left over. Only some people on this site will use that as an excuse.

Don't get me wrong, the rebuild will probably take a year, but not because of the contracts we have today, it's because of the guys we haven't found yet and because of a significant change in the system we play. I think Winter is being optimistic by saying one year. This has 3 year plan written all over it.

Their salaries are not excessive, but combined they take up what, 250-300K? It's still considerable for 3 bench players that could probably be replaced by draft picks or Academy players. Plus, they take up roster spots, so it does have some impact on Winter's timeline to rebuild the squad.

I think one year is reasonable to become a competitive club that should contend for a playoff spot. Three years is a more realistic time frame to build a championship contender.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 01:20 PM
re Pachuco:
i beg to differ only because i immediately see the difference in the passing, positioning and possession. I dont think itll take more than a year for Mariner to find the players we need (and possibly rid of them), in fact i bet if Mariner had had 6 months he might had been able to find us appropriate players in all positions (although in fairness i dont think we have seen the best or worst of the players/team yet, however im sure there are some guys that we'd be better off without or better off with)

I agree 3 years is def more than enough time to put together a cup contender

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Their combined salaries are not excessive, but combined they take up what, 250-300K? It's still considerable for 3 bench players that could probably be replaced by draft picks or Academy players. Plus, they take up roster spots, so it does have some impact on Winter's timeline to rebuild the squad.

I think one year is reasonable to become a competitive club that should contend for a playoff spot. Three years is a more realistic time frame to build a championship contender.

Actually, by my count it's closer to 200K combined salaries. Now consider that Harden is a bench player at 40K, Gargan is a utility player at 65K (this is the only one I can't find and going by memory) and Peterson is a semi-starter at 100K. I don't think that is considerable at all. These are not terribly difficult contracts to get rid of, and it's hard to argue you can find better players for that kind of money.

Again though, is this seriously what people think is a total mess in cap management? come on. Every team has players sitting on the bench that make that kind of money.

So I stick by my point that Winter doesn't have a cap mess to deal with until someone can prove me otherwise. This is one greatly over exagerated excuse.

ExiledRed
03-23-2011, 01:28 PM
dont care how long he thinks it will take,

he has to beat Preki's record of 7-10-7, a canadian championship, and CL group stage qualification.

because in Anselmi's words, following Preki's dismissal :

ďAt the end of the day, itís a results-oriented business, and the results just werenít there,Ē

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 01:32 PM
well, let the results at the end of the season speak then

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 01:34 PM
also should we fire him if he fails to beat prekis record?

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 01:41 PM
dont care how long he thinks it will take,

he has to beat Preki's record of 7-10-7, a canadian championship, and CL group stage qualification.

because in Anselmi's words, following Preki's dismissal :

ďAt the end of the day, itís a results-oriented business, and the results just werenít there,Ē

From an MLSE perspective, I will certainly rip their head off if they try and raise ticket prices on me after another losing season. For as long as we are rebuilding, I practically expect a discount on my tickets.

having said that, Winter deserves more time unless it is extremely obvious that the direction he is taking is not the direction TFC wants to take. Which is what happened to Preki in my mind. Everyone says Preki needed more time. But if you know your girlfriend isn't the one you want to merry, why give her more time?

brad
03-23-2011, 01:43 PM
Of course, the one year thing could very simply be a line given out to folks to string them along and keep them spending money long enough for MLSE to be sold...

Pookie
03-23-2011, 01:45 PM
Pricing can't be based on expectations of winning.

You can't forward price based on prognositications. What if they don't live up to expectations? Do you get a refund? What if they overachieve? Do you get a bill?

Further, the concept is dangerous because it implies when you win, the ticket will be the most expensive which is a hell of a way to reward a loyal fan base.

Ticket pricing needs to be set on the market demographics/experience themselves. Winning, though an easy thing to focus on, has nothing to do with how expensive a ticket should be.

Pigfynn
03-23-2011, 01:51 PM
Pricing can't be based on expectations of winning.

You can't forward price based on prognositications. What if they don't live up to expectations? Do you get a refund? What if they overachieve? Do you get a bill?

Further, the concept is dangerous because it implies when you win, the ticket will be the most expensive which is a hell of a way to reward a loyal fan base.

Ticket pricing needs to be set on the market demographics/experience themselves. Winning, though an easy thing to focus on, has nothing to do with how expensive a ticket should be.

Ok,


Then how about just pricing tickets based on the overall product you are selling?

Lower soccer quality, elsewhere in the world is cheaper to watch. MLS is by in large low level soccer. The prices should reflect the quality not the fact that it's "the biggest show going" in the country.

Just respect your customer enough to know that he/she knows he's watching a lesser quality product and have it be reflected in the pricing.

Carts
03-23-2011, 01:54 PM
Ok,


Then how about just pricing tickets based on the overall product you are selling?

Lower soccer quality, elsewhere in the world is cheaper to watch. MLS is by in large low level soccer. The prices should reflect the quality not the fact that it's "the biggest show going" in the country.

Just respect your customer enough to know that he/she knows he's watching a lesser quality product and have it be reflected in the pricing.

That's not 100% correct...

Your pricing is based on:
Your Market, Your Product, Your Demand...

A movie in New York City - is cheaper in Columbus Ohio. Even though its the same movie... But based on all three factors, the price is determined...

I'm not for a minute saying that MLSE hasn't overpriced things - just that there is more to it than "...this league is same caliber as this one which costs x-dollars/cents to watch..."

Carts...

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 01:54 PM
Of course, the one year thing could very simply be a line given out to folks to string them along and keep them spending money long enough for MLSE to be sold...

Sure and we can just keep firing coaches cuz instability in the FO is a certain way to get to the top

Pigfynn
03-23-2011, 01:57 PM
I get why MLSE chose to raise prices to nearly the league's highest.

I'm just saying that it's not reflective of the quality of their product.

It's like selling bottled water in the desert...the price is gonna be a little crazy.

Just like what we see at BMO

Beach_Red
03-23-2011, 01:58 PM
Pricing can't be based on expectations of winning.

You can't forward price based on prognositications. What if they don't live up to expectations? Do you get a refund? What if they overachieve? Do you get a bill?

Further, the concept is dangerous because it implies when you win, the ticket will be the most expensive which is a hell of a way to reward a loyal fan base.

Ticket pricing needs to be set on the market demographics/experience themselves. Winning, though an easy thing to focus on, has nothing to do with how expensive a ticket should be.


I know this is going to sound crazy, but ticket pricing should be based on profits - profits for the owners should be capped the same way salaries for the players are capped.

And they can have one or two games a year as "DP" games with higher prices. They could call them "playoff games."

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 02:03 PM
That's not 100% correct...

Your pricing is based on:
Your Market, Your Product, Your Demand...

A movie in New York City - is cheaper in Columbus Ohio. Even though its the same movie... But based on all three factors, the price is determined...

I'm not for a minute saying that MLSE hasn't overpriced things - just that there is more to it than "...this league is same caliber as this one which costs x-dollars/cents to watch..."

Carts...

Yeap, and what we've seen from the Raptors, Jays and now TFC is that demand and interest drops when the product on the field is crap. That's why there is a correlation between ticket pricing and product on the field.

Product on the field may not dictate pricing, but it certainly affects demand, which affects pricing.

brad
03-23-2011, 02:05 PM
Sure and we can just keep firing coaches cuz instability in the FO is a certain way to get to the top

How did you draw that conclusion from what I posted?

Carts
03-23-2011, 02:16 PM
Yeap, and what we've seen from the Raptors, Jays and now TFC is that demand and interest drops when the product on the field is crap. That's why there is a correlation between ticket pricing and product on the field.

Product on the field may not dictate pricing, but it certainly affects demand, which affects pricing.

Uh, that's what I said... Three factors - PRODUCT - was one of them...

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 02:30 PM
and keep them spending money long enough for MLSE to be sold...

this is the part i missed, my bad, was too busy focusing on the one year line.

regardless lets continue discussiong this for arguments sake (and im not trying to pick a fight, just like playing devils advocate), why would the coach be the mouth piece for the corporation? i know it has happened (prob in worse situations like in Russia where youve got coaches games being dictated by mafia dons), regardless youd think he'd be sincere about this one thing no?

Oldtimer
03-23-2011, 02:39 PM
dont care how long he thinks it will take,

he has to beat Preki's record of 7-10-7, a canadian championship, and CL group stage qualification.

because in Anselmi's words, following Preki's dismissal :

ďAt the end of the day, itís a results-oriented business, and the results just werenít there,Ē

Anselmi dumped Preki because he was Mo's guy, not just strictly based on Preki's results. The "results" were 4 years of Mo's results, not Preki's.

Pachuco
03-23-2011, 03:19 PM
Uh, that's what I said... Three factors - PRODUCT - was one of them...

I was agreeing with you ;) Just expanding on your post.

Carts
03-23-2011, 03:34 PM
I was agreeing with you ;) Just expanding on your post.

:flare: Doh :(

Sorry...

v00d00daddy
03-23-2011, 04:18 PM
Great interview. Sharman did a bang up job asking the important questions.

As for Winter's answers:

Wow!

I love it.

In a nutshell he said:

"I have a plan to get TFC playing attractive, technical, possession based football. It will take a while to implement and I obviously don't have all the players I need to accomplish this but it will come. I want to change the soccer philosophy around here and develop the academy, and that will bring results. DeGuzman is a very important part of this plan. DeRo is a talented player but he must follow the rules like everyone else."

I loved what he said about DeRo.

First their are rules and tasks that a player has to respect on the field. Once you've fulfilled your obligation by completing your task on the field...you can then let your talent shine through.

Of course that's more paraphrasing but still.

I know it may just come off as typical new coach speak, but I really have confidence in Winter's vision.

I just hope he and Mariner can find the players to implement it.

Oh yeah....as long as they stick to this plan...I couldn't care less about early season results.

ExiledRed
03-23-2011, 08:55 PM
Im underwhelmed by his purported vision for the club, and his lack of charisma doesnt inspire me or convince me that he can get these particular players motivated to a winning mentality.

I've been wrong before, I seriously hope Im wrong about Winter, I want to be wrong!, but so far.....underwhelmed.

And to answer those who responded to my previous post about equalling Preki's record... If he does worse, it will be because of lack of experience, undue experimentation and poor adaptation to the league and not because 'it takes ..er time to win tings....and we need to err....build technical abilities.....in maybe a year er.....if we can find the right players.'

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 09:01 PM
Only thing is look at hyndmann and reis, two coaches that have had even less experience and still done well for themselves. Let's hope winter falls into the same category

Yohan
03-23-2011, 09:17 PM
Only thing is look at hyndmann and reis, two coaches that have had even less experience and still done well for themselves. Let's hope winter falls into the same category
only because their FOs was patient enough to give these guys time to build their team... though I think Hyndman was close to being sacked before Dallas started to make an amazing run (though on top of Cunty's retarded scoring streak)

ExiledRed
03-23-2011, 09:24 PM
Only thing is look at hyndmann and reis, two coaches that have had even less experience and still done well for themselves. Let's hope winter falls into the same category

I am hoping....my main issue is that were always in this position were we have to hope or 'wait and see' because we never get credible experience, or proven track records, and we can never really see that the new unproven coach has won the confidence and loyalty of the players.

Anywhere else, strong coaches are expected to turn things around from the moment they arrive at underachieving teams, Theyre hired for this purpose and get the job based on their resume. If they really are strong coaches, the improvement is usually immediately obvious, there is no 'we have to suck now, so we can be good late' mentality.

So new guys who've never proven they actually can turn a team around should get all the time in the world, no pressure and the right to perform worse than their predecessors? On top of that, because theyre the latest in a line of coaches and a need for stability demands that we dont fire him, he stays however badly he does?

Its been one poor preseason and one awful game, and I promise I really want to be embarrassingly wrong about this.

Im scared that Winter thinks he has a season of meaningless friendlies ahead of him, I dont believe that he does.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2011, 09:32 PM
I'd say he's already made his mark with Cann and DeRo as well as the fact that we had 60 something percent posession the other day, I can't ever think of a game in which that happened. I definitely understand your concerns but outside of the loss (which wasn't really that surprising) we don't have too much of a reason to fret. Although he says he needs a year I don't think he'd be involved as a head coach if he didn't want to win every game and try for at least a playoff spot

ExiledRed
03-23-2011, 09:49 PM
I'd say he's already made his mark with Cann and DeRo as well as the fact that we had 60 something percent posession the other day, I can't ever think of a game in which that happened. I definitely understand your concerns but outside of the loss (which wasn't really that surprising) we don't have too much of a reason to fret. Although he says he needs a year I don't think he'd be involved as a head coach if he didn't want to win every game and try for at least a playoff spot

Your right, and I found the first half one of the more entertaining games I've watched from us for a while, but Im a bit concerned that Vancouver werent actually that good and most other MLS teams would have raped us for the ball with those awful first touches, wayward passes and awkward recoveries that Vancouver were letting us get away with. Vancouver looked like they were enjoying themselves though, and their passion shone much brighter than ours.

We'll see though, I do think that he shouldnt be allowed to continue if he does worse than Preki after 24 games. We'll know if were in trouble after 12 games, if were anything like 2-8-2 and we've lost the NCC to Vancouver, no?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-24-2011, 05:47 AM
once again two pretty reasonable concerns, id agree that the ship might be headed in the wrong direction after maybe half the season as opposed to 12 games, simply because we have a bigger season this year and it only seems fair. Question is, suppose he is doing worse, do we turn over the FO yet again?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-24-2011, 05:52 AM
I think, if anything, we should enjoy what we see (or potentially/supposedly see, depending on ones view points) in front of us, keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best. God knows it could be difficult as all hell but its worth a try.

Shakes McQueen
03-24-2011, 06:26 AM
once again two pretty reasonable concerns, id agree that the ship might be headed in the wrong direction after maybe half the season as opposed to 12 games, simply because we have a bigger season this year and it only seems fair. Question is, suppose he is doing worse, do we turn over the FO yet again?

The only reason I'd turn over the management that quickly again, is if it's clear that Winter has abandoned any pretense of what he claims is his plan.

For example, it became clear that Mo had abandoned his "five-year plan" when he turned over most of our roster - including guys he had brought in after the expansion draft - two years in a row. It became clear that he was just shuffling the deck and praying it would work in year three, and that's when he should have been fired.

Winter needs to stay for the entire season otherwise, and as long as I see clear progress in the squad, I think he deserves to stay past then. We need a consistent vision for the club. Having a new manager every season, bringing in a few of "their" guys every year, has contributed greatly to our current aimless hodge-podge of players.

And this isn't even necessarily about jobbers like Gargan and Harden - it could involve trading a guy like DeRo.

It's difficult to have the patience to let a new guy come in and build this team over anew, after the four year comedy show that preceded him, but we just have to grit our teeth and try not to shoulder Winter with that impatience - at least not immediately.

So, yeah - my expectations are clear progress this season, and a significantly better team next season. Anything less, and he should be held accountable. But let's give him time to sink or swim, first.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
03-24-2011, 06:57 AM
yep, seems like a pretty reasonable set of demands as far as coaching is concerned

RedsYNWA
03-24-2011, 08:04 AM
If we don't beat our 2007 expansion record ( I know it's asking much) Winter should get a kick in the ass out of here

Beach_Red
03-24-2011, 08:11 AM
yep, seems like a pretty reasonable set of demands as far as coaching is concerned

And what about Mariner?

maninb
03-24-2011, 08:15 AM
If we don't beat our 2007 expansion record ( I know it's asking much) Winter should get a kick in the ass out of here


Nonsense....If the team LOOKS to be progressing then why should he be canned? wins and losses ARE NOT the only indicator of progress...it's about playing attractive football, keeping possession, being consistent and then hopefully turning those attributes into wins...saying he must finish with a certain number of points or he's be fired is just plain lunacy!

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 08:25 AM
If we don't beat our 2007 expansion record ( I know it's asking much) Winter should get a kick in the ass out of here

thats the second dumb remark i've read by you in 10 mins.

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 08:35 AM
I'm certainly not expecting miracles regarding our record this season, but I don't think people should read too much into the Vancouver loss. If the backline was sorted out for that match, it could have been a much different result. I saw enough in that game from several TFC players to indicate that the Reds are not nearly as dismal as the scoreline indicated.

Remember last season's 4-1 debacle against New England in the season opener? It was an even worse display. The difference this season is that TFC actually appears to be able to create offensive opportunities, and has more than one legitimate scoring option in DeRo. I believe there is more talent overall on this year's squad. If TFC can learn to play competent defensively without playing negative football, there is no reason why this club shouldn't improve on last year's record at the very least.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-24-2011, 08:53 AM
And what about Mariner?

good question. i dont mind the idea of Mariner at the helm but am a little hesitant to give it to him right away (solely based on the idea that i dont want to fire WInter right away, i truly believe he needs at least a season with evidence that we are progressing, which i believe we've already seen). There is kind of an insurance of having him in the background because he a) knows the league, b) is prob getting players that both him and Winter want, which COULD mean that should Mariner ever have to take over hes not going to have to overhaul the entire squad.

denime
03-24-2011, 08:58 AM
Winter is not going anywhere this year,even if we have worst results in our short 5 years history.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-24-2011, 09:13 AM
i think youre right and i hope youre right, one year just isnt enough especially after the amount of crap we've been through already

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 09:24 AM
If we don't beat our 2007 expansion record ( I know it's asking much) Winter should get a kick in the ass out of here


Nonsense....If the team LOOKS to be progressing then why should he be canned? wins and losses ARE NOT the only indicator of progress...it's about playing attractive football, keeping possession, being consistent and then hopefully turning those attributes into wins...saying he must finish with a certain number of points or he's be fired is just plain lunacy!


thats the second dumb remark i've read by you in 10 mins.

Why is it dumb? Now Winter gets a free pass to be worse than Mo in season one?

Mo had to work with the fieldturf, Mo had 80% of the roster on international call up, and it crippled the team.
Mo's key players all got lengthy injuries. (possibly due to the fieldturf)
Mo was forced to fill the roster with canadians like Braz. Reda and Poz who underperformed horribly.
Many players who Mo traded for, werent happy to come here and would play shit till they got traded away.
Mo didnt get to spend on a DP, and only had one slot anyway.

Now, with all these things working against him, we had the longest goal drought in league history amd the abysmal record of 6-17-7

How could the team LOOK to be progressing if we dont beat this record?

We cant.

Reds is right, if after thirty games weve lost 17 and won 6, without all the season one factors working against us then Winter's a bust plain and simple.

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Why is it dumb? Now Winter gets a free pass to be worse than Mo in season one?

Mo had to work with the fieldturf, Mo had 80% of the roster on international call up, and it crippled the team.
Mo's key players all got lengthy injuries. (possibly due to the fieldturf)
Mo was forced to fill the roster with canadians like Braz. Reda and Poz who underperformed horribly.
Many players who Mo traded for, werent happy to come here and would play shit till they got traded away.
Mo didnt get to spend on a DP, and only had one slot anyway.

Now, with all these things working against him, we had the longest goal drought in league history amd the abysmal record of 6-17-7

How could the team LOOK to be progressing if we dont beat this record?

We cant.

Reds is right, if after thirty games weve lost 17 and won 6, without all the season one factors working against us then Winter's a bust plain and simple.

I agree with most of your points. That being said, does anyone really believe TFC will be that futile this season?

Whoop
03-24-2011, 09:43 AM
The only reason I'd turn over the management that quickly again, is if it's clear that Winter has abandoned any pretense of what he claims is his plan.

For example, it became clear that Mo had abandoned his "five-year plan" when he turned over most of our roster - including guys he had brought in after the expansion draft - two years in a row. It became clear that he was just shuffling the deck and praying it would work in year three, and that's when he should have been fired.

Winter needs to stay for the entire season otherwise, and as long as I see clear progress in the squad, I think he deserves to stay past then. We need a consistent vision for the club. Having a new manager every season, bringing in a few of "their" guys every year, has contributed greatly to our current aimless hodge-podge of players.

And this isn't even necessarily about jobbers like Gargan and Harden - it could involve trading a guy like DeRo.

It's difficult to have the patience to let a new guy come in and build this team over anew, after the four year comedy show that preceded him, but we just have to grit our teeth and try not to shoulder Winter with that impatience - at least not immediately.

So, yeah - my expectations are clear progress this season, and a significantly better team next season. Anything less, and he should be held accountable. But let's give him time to sink or swim, first.

- Scott

I agree with this post. Especially the part about Mo "abandoning" his plan.

Exiled, even experienced coaches fail miserably at times. And while the lack of first team experience from Winter IS disconcerting, he also needs the benefit of doubt.

What happens if he has the same mark as Preki did when Preki got fired? Do you fire Winter? While it is a results oriented business, there are going to be some intangibles that aren't easily measured that have to be taken into account.

The question then becomes does the FO have the necessary expertise to discern those intangibles?

I believe Preki's firing had more to do with the fact that they had to let Mo go and they couldn't keep Preki, even though he had another year left on the contract. I mean do you bring a GM and tell him, "Well, normally you hire the coach but unfortunately due to the contract, you have to go with Preki."

The Toronto sports scene is filled with these examples.

1) JP Riccardi came in with a plan of competing on a limited budget, but after two or three seasons abandoned his plan and went in a different direction. In the meantime the team just got stuck in indifference. Now Alex Anthopoulos is there and the results aren't measurably better but there is more optimism and even if the Jays are worse this year than they were last year I don't see them firing Anthopoulos or John Farrell.

2) Bryan Colangelo comes to the Raptors but there is a coach in place in Sam Mitchell. Brian Burke comes to the Leafs and there is a coach in place in Ron Wilson. In both instances you could argue that both GMs would have preferred to bring in their own coach from the start but that's hindsight.

Beach_Red
03-24-2011, 09:53 AM
I agree with this post. Especially the part about Mo "abandoning" his plan.



No "plan" should be longer than the contract of the guy trying to implement it. That's just poor management. A guy says, "It'll take five years to build a team from scratch to competing for the Cup," and they say, "Okay, sounds good, here's a one year contract, get started and we'll see how it goes." For three years the team steadily improved in wins and points so it "looked" like progress was being made. Enough for these guys to offer up a contract extension.

Really, the way they set it up it couldn't have gone any other way no matter who was running it.

So now they've given Mariner and Winter three year deals and even then it was probably on Klinsmann's advice. So, let's hope that MLSE don't take it upon themselves to try and figure out if progress is being made and fire people, let's hope they get more input from their consultants.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 09:53 AM
Can I just ask how badly winter has to do, before its clear that his 'system' isnt going to work and we are in dire need of someone else? What is the criteria for failure here?

From what I can gather, we could go 34-0-0 here and that would be OK because we're initiating a new culture with a system of atacking, posession based football and these things 'take time'

denime
03-24-2011, 09:56 AM
No "plan" should be longer than the contract of the guy trying to implement it. That's just poor management. A guy says, "It'll take five years to build a team from scratch to competing for the Cup," and they say, "Okay, sounds good, here's a one year contract, get started and we'll see how it goes." For three years the team steadily improved in wins and points so it "looked" like progress was being made. Enough for these guys to offer up a contract extension.

Really, the way they set it up it couldn't have gone any other way no matter who was running it.

So now they've given Mariner and Winter three year deals and even then it was probably on Klinsmann's advice. So, let's hope that MLSE don't take it upon themselves to try and figure out if progress is being made and fire people, let's hope they get more input from their consultants.

ML$E was listening WRONG consultants for first 4 years,I really hope they want turn back to them for advice,we are screwed if the do.

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 09:57 AM
Can I just ask how badly winter has to do, before its clear that his 'system' isnt going to work and we are in dire need of someone else? What is the criteria for failure here?

From what I can gather, we could go 34-0-0 here and that would be OK because we're initiating a new culture with a system of atacking, posession based football and these things 'take time'

Damn right that would be ok! I'd take 34 wins in a regular season. :D

Gazza
03-24-2011, 10:01 AM
Can I just ask how badly winter has to do, before its clear that his 'system' isnt going to work and we are in dire need of someone else? What is the criteria for failure here?

From what I can gather, we could go 34-0-0 here and that would be OK because we're initiating a new culture with a system of atacking, posession based football and these things 'take time'

Hopefully we give him more than a shortened pre-season and a few league games.

I'm not exactly sure what some people's expectations for this year are with virtually the same line-up as last year.

To me, this year has always been a write-off. I just want to see progression and the influx of better players. I'll save my scrutiny for next year. Unless we get the pitch forks and torches out this year and run him out of town. Then i guess it will be the same o'l same o'l.

Beach_Red
03-24-2011, 10:02 AM
Can I just ask how badly winter has to do, before its clear that his 'system' isnt going to work and we are in dire need of someone else? What is the criteria for failure here?

From what I can gather, we could go 34-0-0 here and that would be OK because we're initiating a new culture with a system of atacking, posession based football and these things 'take time'


The first year he can have the worst record in TFC history and he'll still be back for year two - they're still paying Mo (and maybe Preki, how long was his contract?) so there's no way they're going to pay Winter and whoever replaces him for two more years. Winter will be here for two years at least.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 10:07 AM
Damn right that would be ok! I'd take 34 wins in a regular season. :D
yeah my bad, but you know what i meant

0-34-0

Whoop
03-24-2011, 10:13 AM
Personally I always felt this year was a "one step back to take two steps forward" kind of year.

It sucks going into the season thinking that but sometimes that's the reality. The only nugget was that playoffs were going to be expanded this year.

Having said, I don't think the team will go out and lose all 34 matches. If it did, well then yeah, you'd have to reconsider.

If the team matches the 1st year record? I still think this team will do better than that, but remember that first year team had TWO miserable scoreless streaks. Again, I don't think the team will be THAT bad.

The biggest thing that others have pointed - and which is more troubling - is the lack of fight in the team on Saturday. THAT is more troubling.

But that's where it might take some time. Perhaps there are players in the room who have given up or are mailing it in. I don't know that for sure, but that seems to be a possibility. If that's the case that's where the new guys have to ship those guys out and bring in "their guys". That's where it takes time.

That's the biggest issue with TFC. It's that rotten culture that's permeated from the FO to the management to the players. That takes time to clean out. Everyone points to the NYRB as the franchise to look at in "quick turnaround" but a) when they first started out there were the epitome of a franchise in shambles and b) when they did turn it around there was a lot more optimism given the new stadium going up and their improbable run in 2008. And they didn't have a rotten team culture at the time.

You can't underestimate the rot that is there with this club.

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 10:54 AM
Why is it dumb?

because as long as we keep bringing in coaches every season we will never see the end of our troubles. we need some stability, not an easy thing to accomplish when after less then a season people start screaming for heads to roll. impatience is not the key to succes here.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 10:58 AM
because as long as we keep bringing in coaches every season we will never see the end of our troubles. we need some stability, not an easy thing to accomplish when after less then a season people start screaming for heads to roll. impatience is not the key to succes here.

Yes but that need for stability shouldnt force us to keep someone in charge, if they're terrible. there has to be a criteria for failure.

We dont want to be stably terrible.

I'd also argue that as long as we keep replacing inexperienced coaches with inexperienced coaches, we will never see the end of our troubles either.

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 11:15 AM
agreed, but this time around its seems that some actual thought went into bringing in a new coach. perhaps the first time this was done at this club. and frustrating as the last 4 seasons have been, it would be a shame if winter is run out of town soley based on the incompetence of the past. frustrated as the support may be at this point taking the short sighted approach will only lead to the same failure.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 11:22 AM
People won't be happy until Steve Nicol is brought in.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 11:25 AM
People won't be happy until Steve Nicol is brought in.

Thats cheap.

denime
03-24-2011, 11:31 AM
People won't be happy until Steve Nicol is brought in.

Who is Steve Nicol?

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 11:39 AM
Oddly enough, Steve Nicol's record as a manager in New England has plummeted since Paul Mariner left the organization. Then again, New England has the worst ownership group in MLS.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 11:39 AM
I didnt want Steve Nicol because he's Liverpool alumni, but because he's one of the best MLS coaches out there with an excellent track record.

Despite the ownership, lack of facilities, lack of funding etc... Nicol was able to take an unremarkable lineup and turn them into the one of the scariest teams in the league, reaching the final several times and winning a superliga. They could adapt to 3-5-2 very easily, and played fast paced, posession based, attacking football.

If Nicol was offered the job, its not unlikely that he turned it down because he knows that owners who dont offer much money, but dont interfere are infinitely preferable to owners who put up the cash but insist on meddling with coaching decisions.

Does anybody really believe that 'rebuilding' would be a three year long process for the likes of Nicol, Arena, Schmidt or any other coach in the league with 5 years under their belt?

Whoop
03-24-2011, 11:45 AM
I was being sarcastic. Should have said some people. LOL

But sometimes people have this guy in mind, or think, that GM x or GM y will do a better job.

I laugh at Leaf fans who thought that Brian Burke, an experienced guy - especially in relation to JFJ - was going to be a saviour because he had won a Stanley Cup with the Ducks but if you delved into his track record, it wasn't really all that great. But that glistening championship ring swayed a lot of the public support.

Meanwhile guys less experienced than him have succeed over the last few years.

You look at Europe and look at how a lot of coaches get recycled over time and sure they have experience but that doesn't guarantee success. Reading through the Bayern thread, they're thinking of bringing back Jupp Heynckes yet since his success with Real Madrid in the late 90s, his track record has been nothing special. The guy he would be replacing, Louis van Gaal, had no experience when he took over Ajax and after 3 years he led the team to 3 league titles, a CL championship and a CL runner-up medal. Rafa Benitez goes to Inter Milan, proven track record, and was unmitigated disaster.

Bart van Marwijk wasn't an overly qualified coach when he took over the Dutch national side and they came one match away from winning the whole thing.

At some point, somewhere a guy needs a break. You don't want to be the team where the guy gets that break, but hell, it's not like proven, experienced coaches are knocking on the door of MLS teams. Much less guys with MLS experience.

One of the worst things this league could do is end up recycling coaches like a league like the CFL. At some point you have to break the mold and look "outside the box".

My point is just because a guy doesn't have first team experience doesn't mean he will be a disaster but at the same time if it is, then you have to make a decision.

At the same token you NEED stability. It's crucial for any organizations, sporting or otherwise.

Do I think this year will be a success results wise? No. But I do think it's going to be a disaster? No. I think the results will be the same. The team will struggle/fight for a playoff spot and either just squeak in or just lose out.

So now you have to measure the intangibles.

That is the more difficult part. To be honest, I don't think the supporters, for the most part, are qualified to know that as we're not in the inside. We can speculate all we want but we won't know.

The part that is scary is that it's not like you have a footballing boss at the top who can measure the intangibles and discern them. It's not like you have a former footballer like Uli Hoeness as president. You have Tom Anselmi.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Does anybody really believe that 'rebuilding' would be a three year long process for the likes of Nicol, Arena, Schmidt or any other coach in the league with 5 years under their belt?

No, it wouldn't and it shouldn't even with Winter.

But you can't also expect a guy to rebuild in 3-6 months.

I think that's why most people are saying "give him a year".

RedsYNWA
03-24-2011, 11:48 AM
because as long as we keep bringing in coaches every season we will never see the end of our troubles. we need some stability, not an easy thing to accomplish when after less then a season people start screaming for heads to roll. impatience is not the key to succes here.


You do not agree that there should be a certain futility point at which time you need to fire people....I'm all for giving people a chance and time but if we do get a worse year than year one, I guarantee you 12 K max in the stands watching attactive football next season.
I don't expect miracles here just a decent run and anything less than 25 points this year is utter failure regardless of any "System"

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 11:50 AM
I was being sarcastic. Should have said some people. LOL

But sometimes people have this guy in mind, or think, that GM x or GM y will do a better job.

I laugh at Leaf fans who thought that Brian Burke, an experienced guy - especially in relation to JFJ - was going to be a saviour because he had won a Stanley Cup with the Ducks but if you delved into his track record, it wasn't really all that great. But that glistening championship ring swayed a lot of the public support.

Meanwhile guys less experienced than him have succeed over the last few years.

You look at Europe and look at how a lot of coaches get recycled over time and sure they have experience but that doesn't guarantee success. Reading through the Bayern thread, they're thinking of bringing back Jupp Heynckes yet since his success with Real Madrid in the late 90s, his track record has been nothing special. The guy he would be replacing, Louis van Gaal, had no experience when he took over Ajax and after 3 years he led the team to 3 league titles, a CL championship and a CL runner-up medal. Rafa Benitez goes to Inter Milan, proven track record, and was unmitigated disaster.

Bart van Marwijk wasn't an overly qualified coach when he took over the Dutch national side and they came one match away from winning the whole thing.

At some point, somewhere a guy needs a break. You don't want to be the team where the guy gets that break, but hell, it's not like proven, experienced coaches are knocking on the door of MLS teams. Much less guys with MLS experience.

One of the worst things this league could do is end up recycling coaches like a league like the CFL. At some point you have to break the mold and look "outside the box".

My point is just because a guy doesn't have first team experience doesn't mean he will be a disaster but at the same time if it is, then you have to make a decision.

At the same token you NEED stability. It's crucial for any organizations, sporting or otherwise.

Do I think this year will be a success results wise? No. But I do think it's going to be a disaster? No. I think the results will be the same. The team will struggle/fight for a playoff spot and either just squeak in or just lose out.

So now you have to measure the intangibles.

That is the more difficult part. To be honest, I don't think the supporters, for the most part, are qualified to know that as we're not in the inside. We can speculate all we want but we won't know.

The part that is scary is that it's not like you have a footballing boss at the top who can measure the intangibles and discern them. It's not like you have a former footballer like Uli Hoeness as president. You have Tom Anselmi.

No need to bring Burkie into this conversation.

Other than that I agree with your post. :D

ACSertL
03-24-2011, 11:56 AM
No need to bring Heynckes into this conversation.

Other than that I agree with your post. :D

That's how I feel about it :lol:

ManUtd4ever
03-24-2011, 11:57 AM
LOL...

Whoop
03-24-2011, 12:04 PM
But I was illustrating a point. Burke is more "qualified" than JFJ but results wise... they're pretty much identical. One guy was run out of town and one guy is still seen as the saviour, why?

Look at sporting franchises around the world, at every level, in every sport. The best organizations, the consistent winners are the organizations that are stable.

I'm not going to discredit some of the things that Mo did, but at the same time, it never seemed like Mo ever had a plan.

At least with the new guys there appears to be some structure, a plan in place.

I think a lot of people are bang on when they say that it's not necessarily rebuilding that needs to be done with TFC but rather .... starting the build.

There was no foundation with Mo. Or if there was, that foundation has developed some cracks and mould is coming through.

So it looks like you have to start all over again. That's why I say it's going to be "one step back to take two step forwards" kind of year.

The predicament this team is in goes back to the extension Anselmi gave Mo in the summer of '09 or the fact that he was allowed back for the 2010 season. Anselmi should have said, no let's wait until the end of '09. And Mo should have been fired after the 5-0 loss.

After that loss, Mo knows he's under the gun so he brings in Preki, not with a look to the future, but rather to save his ass. And it failed.

You see it in sports all the time. Guy is under the gun from management and instead of keeping the goal, and the future, of the organization in mind, makes moves to save his job and any problems that will arise in the future, either he will deal with them then or let the new guy worry about them. I see this in my day-to-day life. (Yes, yes... I'm not dealing with professional organizations but it's the same structure and ideals. And the people I deal with were former pros or will be pros.)

So there are going to be some ugly losses this year, and as supporters, we'll take our lumps from other supporters and cities and as a result get angry, but it's not like the team won't win.

And I know for a fact, I don't think there will ever be a lower point, for me as a supporter this year, like in 2009 when Montreal lifted the Voyageurs Cup on our home turf. Or even later that year when a shitty NYRB team won 5-0 on a rainy October night in Jersey.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 12:07 PM
if we do get a worse year than year one, I guarantee you 12 K max in the stands watching attactive football next season.

This is cold reality.

We needed a quick fix to prevent this, eben if it meant we'd suck again in a couple of years time. We got the 'slow rebuild' excuse instead, were we suck for an unspecified amount of time, and after that, were not necessarily winning but were playing 'attractive attacking football'

There is no guarantee that were filling the stadium this year, never mind next year. If Winter continues to experiment and risks shitty results in the first four home games, we could be looking at 12k attendance THIS season.

My individual impatience is not a factor here.

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 12:11 PM
You do not agree that there should be a certain futility point at which time you need to fire people....I'm all for giving people a chance and time but if we do get a worse year than year one, I guarantee you 12 K max in the stands watching attactive football next season.
I don't expect miracles here just a decent run and anything less than 25 points this year is utter failure regardless of any "System"

ofcourse there comes a point when you let people go, just have a realistic vision of when that time is, and what criteria we hold them to.

and whats worse then season 1? getting less then 25 points wont matter to me much if we get them playing an entertaining game of football.
so far i've seen some of the most horrendous play ever in this town. personally i'd be very happy if i get treated to a season of entertaining matches, despite of maybe not making the play offs. dont get me wrong, i love winning, but its not why i support. i dont think anyone does.
if it is why you (not you specifically) watch, maybe being a glory hunter supporting a barca or manure is more what your looking for. but supporters of local teams go through more heartache then joy, its the nature of the game, and there can only be a couple of top teams, the rest of us have to make due struggling mid table or at the bottom which has been our case. it makes victory when it does come our way so much better, and so more meaningfull.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 12:21 PM
ofcourse there comes a point when you let people go, just have a realistic vision of when that time is, and what criteria we hold them to.

and whats worse then season 1? getting less then 25 points wont matter to me much if we get them playing an entertaining game of football.
so far i've seen some of the most horrendous play ever in this town. personally i'd be very happy if i get treated to a season of entertaining matches, despite of maybe not making the play offs. dont get me wrong, i love winning, but its not why i support. i dont think anyone does.
if it is why you (not you specifically) watch, maybe being a glory hunter supporting a barca or manure is more what your looking for. but supporters of local teams go through more heartache then joy, its the nature of the game, and there can only be a couple of top teams, the rest of us have to make due struggling mid table or at the bottom which has been our case. it makes victory when it does come our way so much better, and so more meaningfull.

Getting beaten rarely goes hand in hand with playing 'attractive entertaining football'

A full season of entertaining losses, is probably a lot less entertaining than you're pretending.

I fail to see that the solution to our lack of success, is to lose in an entertaining fashion, its just wrong.

Gazza
03-24-2011, 12:24 PM
Do people think that there was a coach out there that could turn this team into a winner THIS year?

I find that hard to believe.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 12:25 PM
I agree with exiled though. 34 losses is 34 losses.

I don't think it will be that bad.

But if results are key how come Houston and New England didn't fire their coaches? I mean it's been a while since the managers of those teams have won anything. Both missed the playoffs last season. In the case of New England, their records have been going downhill since 2008, same with Houston.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 12:25 PM
Do people think that there was a coach out there that could turn this team into a winner THIS year?

I find that hard to believe.

Hans Backe.

Gazza
03-24-2011, 12:27 PM
Hans Backe.

Bless you!

menefreghista
03-24-2011, 12:28 PM
Do people think that there was a coach out there that could turn this team into a winner THIS year?

I find that hard to believe.

In a league with a salary cap that generally levels the playing field, but the richer teams can take advantage of 3 DP's I don't think its that impossible to improve.

Gazza
03-24-2011, 12:29 PM
In a league with a salary cap that generally levels the playing field, but the richer teams can take advantage of 3 DP's I don't think its that impossible to improve.

Not impossible, but highly improbable. When you look at what's there to work with.

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 12:30 PM
Do people think that there was a coach out there that could turn this team into a winner THIS year?

I find that hard to believe.

You dont have to be a winner to improve on Preki's or Mo's record, but improvement is mandatory.

menefreghista
03-24-2011, 12:31 PM
You dont have to be a winner to improve on Preki's or Mo's record, but improvement is mandatory.

Agreed.

Let's not give the people in charge built in excuses. Nothing wrong with expecting better.

Gazza
03-24-2011, 12:34 PM
You dont have to be a winner to improve on Preki's or Mo's record, but improvement is mandatory.

I agree...i'm expecting improvement. But what they do in the last half of the season means more than the first half. And next year i will be expecting a great deal more of improvement. I'll even expect the p word!

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 12:37 PM
Getting beaten rarely goes hand in hand with playing 'attractive entertaining football'

A full season of entertaining losses, is probably a lot less entertaining than you're pretending.

I fail to see that the solution to our lack of success, is to lose in an entertaining fashion, its just wrong.

i've supported losing teams my entire life, again, thats being a supporter. what i hate is losing and looking like shit, which what we've been doing up to this point.

dont believe i said that the key to our succes lies within losing pretty. but that losing pretty would be one fuck of an improvement at this point, and that the fire everybody if things dont work in 1 season mentality has also not panned out in the past. we know what hasnt worked, lets see if a change in mentality can change things.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 12:44 PM
And guys I love this debate.

This is stuff I get to debate every day. So I enjoy it and hell, even learn from it.

I hope you guys, looking at you exiled, aren't taking this personal. That's not my intention.

Gazza
03-24-2011, 12:46 PM
And guys I love this debate.

This is stuff I get to debate every day. So I enjoy it and hell, even learn from it.

I hope you guys, looking at you exiled, aren't taking this personal. That's not my intention.

I don't think anyone's taking this personal. This isn't the NHL thread;).

ExiledRed
03-24-2011, 12:53 PM
I hope you guys, looking at you exiled, aren't taking this personal. That's not my intention.

I have no idea why you'd think I'd take anything you said personally.

ginkster88
03-24-2011, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE=Whoopee;1254722One of the worst things this league could do is end up recycling coaches like a league like the CFL. At some point you have to break the mold and look "outside the box".
[/QUOTE]

Um, what?

The CFL is remarkably stable as far as NA sports goes. It is certainly not a "recycling" league. Look to the NFL for a model of that. Because MLs is a NA league it is likely that we will see a higher than Euro average rate of turnover.

RedsYNWA
03-24-2011, 01:00 PM
i've supported losing teams my entire life, again, thats being a supporter. what i hate is losing and looking like shit, which what we've been doing up to this point.

dont believe i said that the key to our succes lies within losing pretty. but that losing pretty would be one fuck of an improvement at this point, and that the fire everybody if things dont work in 1 season mentality has also not panned out in the past. we know what hasnt worked, lets see if a change in mentality can change things.

& this brings to mind my Dero/Cann position if you don't want to be here or make tons of $ LEAVE. Regardless of how talented you are, it is going to reflect on the team. I'm a 'pool supporter and when Torres/Owen wanted more $ or to leave for whatever reason, you have to let them. Otherwise it is bad for the team and the team will look like shit with players not playing with 100% effort or holding out. Dero is a great player but if he does not give it his all and mopes around we are better without him.

Now let's bring in Van Nistelrooy already :p

Whoop
03-24-2011, 01:04 PM
I have no idea why you'd think I'd take anything you said personally.

The Nicol thing wasn't meant as a cheap shot.

He just seems like everyone's favourite candidate to save TFC.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 01:07 PM
Um, what?

The CFL is remarkably stable as far as NA sports goes. It is certainly not a "recycling" league. Look to the NFL for a model of that. Because MLs is a NA league it is likely that we will see a higher than Euro average rate of turnover.

I was talking about the coaches and personnel.

How many QBs have played with other CFL teams? How many coaches have coached other CFL teams?

Montreal finally went outside of the box with Trestman, while Toronto tried to do the same with Andrus. Montreal succeeded while the Argos failed. Why? That had more to do with the fact that Popp is a better GM than Rita.

The CFL is notorious for being a league that recycles personnel.

RedsYNWA
03-24-2011, 01:08 PM
I agree...i'm expecting improvement. But what they do in the last half of the season means more than the first half. And next year i will be expecting a great deal more of improvement. I'll even expect the p word!

This worries me our first half of the season is laced with easier opponents.
Playing the likes of Van, Por, Chivas, Chicago, DC etc. these should be winnable games.
I figure NYRB, RSL, LA, and to a lesser extent Colorado & Dallas the good teams this season, and we only play those teams later :(

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 01:11 PM
& this brings to mind my Dero/Cann position if you don't want to be here or make tons of $ LEAVE. Regardless of how talented you are, it is going to reflect on the team. I'm a 'pool supporter and when Torres/Owen wanted more $ or to leave for whatever reason, you have to let them. Otherwise it is bad for the team and the team will look like shit with players not playing with 100% effort or holding out. Dero is a great player but if he does not give it his all and mopes around we are better without him.

Now let's bring in Van Nistelrooy already :p

think game one there was no such mentality from dero. his goal was full of stfu vw. i'm not the biggest fan of him and some of his antics in the past, but i've yet to see proof that he's slacking of on the pitch.

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 01:13 PM
This worries me our first half of the season is laced with easier opponents.
Playing the likes of Van, Por, Chivas, Chicago, DC etc. these should be winnable games.
I figure NYRB, RSL, LA, and to a lesser extent Colorado & Dallas the good teams this season, and we only play those teams later :(

which will only benefit us. gives us more time to compose ourselves against the easier teams, bring in some better players when they become available and take on the harder oppostion when we've had time to come together as a team. dont think our schedule this season could have been more beneficial to us.

ginkster88
03-24-2011, 01:16 PM
I was talking about the coaches and personnel.

How many QBs have played with other CFL teams? How many coaches have coached other CFL teams?

Montreal finally went outside of the box with Trestman, while Toronto tried to do the same with Andrus. Montreal succeeded while the Argos failed. Why? That had more to do with the fact that Popp is a better GM than Rita.

The CFL is notorious for being a league that recycles personnel.

And the NFL isn't? I'd do a search for all CFL teams and the tenure of their current/recent Head coaches but I know I'm right.

Whoop
03-24-2011, 01:25 PM
The NFL too... but not as bad as the CFL.

A lot more NFL teams are willing to take on coaches with no head coaching experience if they are the right man for the job. ie. Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh and Mike McCarthy in Green Bay, both guys who had NO head coaching experience at any level (or on top of that NO pro playing experience) and yet those were the last two standing this year at the Super Bowl.

What most pro leagues in NA are followers. So expect a rash of hirings of guys who have NO head coaching experience part are deemed to be good "builders".

RedsYNWA
03-24-2011, 01:25 PM
which will only benefit us. gives us more time to compose ourselves against the easier teams, bring in some better players when they become available and take on the harder oppostion when we've had time to come together as a team. dont think our schedule this season could have been more beneficial to us.

Let's hope you are right I like your optimism....now let's get a result Saturday :scarf:

FreekAce
03-24-2011, 01:47 PM
Let's hope you are right I like your optimism....now let's get a result Saturday :scarf:
ha, i always look for the brighter side of things, especially around football. there's to much day to day shit to deal with and i do this for fun, not to depress myself ;)

Can you feel our passion?
Can you hear us sing?
Can you feel our heartbeat?
Your my everything, Your my everything!! :flare:<3:flare:

P-NUTZ
03-25-2011, 11:37 AM
winter seems like a solid dude.
i like him.

i hope he is able to get the lads he needs to have his system work and find success.

although i disliked the loss to vanloser, i did love the passing and possession - that is a tfc first without doubt.

nicer footy to watch even in a loss.

Corpand
03-25-2011, 11:56 AM
I spoke briefly with Aaron yesterday at Yonge-Dundas and I can tell you this man has one helluva plan. Some of the points taken from the convo:

-He is completely aiming to develop Toronto FC from the ground up, yet many changes will start next year. Didn't say too much but mentioned the offseason structure, and how it will be very different from this years.

-Said he is looking for the hungry young players who want to play for the team but he will try to never field a very young squad, said that motivation at the right times from older players changes games.

-Also because everyone is learning the new system from ground up, it sort of puts everyone on a similar level to start off. He joked that even some of the youngsters give pointers to the older guys during training (wouldn't say who) and nobody looks down on that.


he sounded a little bit nervous about the home opener but also very excited.
We need to show him that shit WON'T hit the fan if we lose our first few games. Aaron is extremely smart, he knows it will take time, so do we. Its amazing how your opinion can change of a person when you meet them in person but I honestly believe we are in much better hands than we were years before. Thoughts?

ManUtd4ever
03-25-2011, 12:03 PM
I spoke briefly with Aaron yesterday at Yonge-Dundas and I can tell you this man has one helluva plan. Some of the points taken from the convo:

-He is completely aiming to develop Toronto FC from the ground up, yet many changes will start next year. Didn't say too much but mentioned the offseason structure, and how it will be very different from this years.

-Said he is looking for the hungry young players who want to play for the team but he will try to never field a very young squad, said that motivation at the right times from older players changes games.

-Also because everyone is learning the new system from ground up, it sort of puts everyone on a similar level to start off. He joked that even some of the youngsters give pointers to the older guys during training (wouldn't say who) and nobody looks down on that.


he sounded a little bit nervous about the home opener but also very excited.
We need to show him that shit WON'T hit the fan if we lose our first few games. Aaron is extremely smart, he knows it will take time, so do we. Its amazing how your opinion can change of a person when you meet them in person but I honestly believe we are in much better hands than we were years before. Thoughts?

Thanks for the update, and I agree with your sentiments 100%.

Whoop
03-25-2011, 12:04 PM
That's what I mean.

Maybe he's snowing everyone but he's talking a good game and has a plan. If he starts deviating from his plan, that's when we know that he's in over his head.

That's why I give him the benefit of doubt.

J .
03-25-2011, 06:50 PM
Why people think we need to wait at all to turn things around is beyond me. It is such a pro north American sports mentality and there is even no guarantees that will work.

MLS has academy's, the draft and the world talent pool to bring players in. Many teams have turned around a very poor season and competed, made the playoffs or went even further.

Why shouldn't we view TFC that way? That winning is the only acceptable result?

Why accept MORE poor play, struggling for mediocrity, eating up this "takes time" mentality that has never wielded results in the past four years? Because our coach is Dutch?

Moreover, I am aghast people will accept massive losses in the name of playing "attacking football". That is not how you breed a winning culture. In any sports. In any league. Anywhere. Barca and Ajax doesnt accept being very shitty. Chelsea, Man U, Bayern, Liverpool doesn't accept that. Any team with self respect doesnt. Why should TFC? Hell Vancouver or Seattle didnt accept the role as expansion teams, but every year TFC has to be one?

Im gutted when a team scores on us when they score 3-4 thats just shameful. There is nothing progressive in those types of results and those are the results we have gotten 4/5 years with experimental coaches not realizing that MLS is an attacking league and leaving your backline exposed will get you pummeled.

It makes me wonder if people watch the games at all.

P-NUTZ
03-25-2011, 07:43 PM
I spoke briefly with Aaron yesterday at Yonge-Dundas and I can tell you this man has one helluva plan. Some of the points taken from the convo:

-He is completely aiming to develop Toronto FC from the ground up, yet many changes will start next year. Didn't say too much but mentioned the offseason structure, and how it will be very different from this years.

-Said he is looking for the hungry young players who want to play for the team but he will try to never field a very young squad, said that motivation at the right times from older players changes games.

-Also because everyone is learning the new system from ground up, it sort of puts everyone on a similar level to start off. He joked that even some of the youngsters give pointers to the older guys during training (wouldn't say who) and nobody looks down on that.


he sounded a little bit nervous about the home opener but also very excited.
We need to show him that shit WON'T hit the fan if we lose our first few games. Aaron is extremely smart, he knows it will take time, so do we. Its amazing how your opinion can change of a person when you meet them in person but I honestly believe we are in much better hands than we were years before. Thoughts?


i think impressions like this have some validity.
i never bought an ounce of legitimacy from mo or cummins.
was frustrated by carver and his projected issues.
believed prekis genuine, no nonsense intentions

and would suggest winter is the best man to date, and worth the faith and optimism. which i felt only once before. IMO.
i have played the game at various levels for 30+ years and think this man is different to the point where it's confidently worth our investment>

menefreghista
03-26-2011, 06:35 AM
Why people think we need to wait at all to turn things around is beyond me. It is such a pro north American sports mentality and there is even no guarantees that will work.

MLS has academy's, the draft and the world talent pool to bring players in. Many teams have turned around a very poor season and competed, made the playoffs or went even further.

Why shouldn't we view TFC that way? That winning is the only acceptable result?

Why accept MORE poor play, struggling for mediocrity, eating up this "takes time" mentality that has never wielded results in the past four years? Because our coach is Dutch?

Moreover, I am aghast people will accept massive losses in the name of playing "attacking football". That is not how you breed a winning culture. In any sports. In any league. Anywhere. Barca and Ajax doesnt accept being very shitty. Chelsea, Man U, Bayern, Liverpool doesn't accept that. Any team with self respect doesnt. Why should TFC? Hell Vancouver or Seattle didnt accept the role as expansion teams, but every year TFC has to be one?

Im gutted when a team scores on us when they score 3-4 thats just shameful. There is nothing progressive in those types of results and those are the results we have gotten 4/5 years with experimental coaches not realizing that MLS is an attacking league and leaving your backline exposed will get you pummeled.

It makes me wonder if people watch the games at all.

I agree with you.

In my opinion I think a lot of people are willing to be patient because they are influenced by the other North American sports. In the NHL, MLB, NFL, etc. it really does take time to rebuild because of the draft system and because of the limited amount of talent available.

But soccer is totally different. You have access to way more talent.

Whoop
03-26-2011, 07:02 AM
A lot of it still stems from Mo though.

Mo had all this access to talent and who did he bring in?

People have been so jaded by what's happened the last four years that when the new guy brings in a young guy with promise like Stevanovic, the first thing isn't good signing let's hope he does well, it's I hope he doesn't crash and burn like our past signings.

With the Stevanovic signing plus the other guys the team has signed if you look at the roster there's a lot more youth than before which leads me to believe the team is looking to build on this youth.

TFC tried the bring in older, experienced players and eschew the youth and when the team crashed and burned there was no base. So the team takes a step back.

Is it easier to go after a lot of older guys to make the playoffs but in two years, those guys retire or move on?

Why always bring up the fact he's Dutch? Who cares?

At the end of the day I don't care where the coach comes from or where the players come from. I mean would like to see Canadian players on the team, but it's not a prerequisite. I just want the best starting XI.

I just don't understand by saying you're willing to give the new guys the benefit of the doubt and some patience it automatically means accepting mediocrity?

ManUtd4ever
03-26-2011, 07:55 AM
A lot of it still stems from Mo though.

Mo had all this access to talent and who did he bring in?

People have been so jaded by what's happened the last four years that when the new guy brings in a young guy with promise like Stevanovic, the first thing isn't good signing let's hope he does well, it's I hope he doesn't crash and burn like our past signings.

With the Stevanovic signing plus the other guys the team has signed if you look at the roster there's a lot more youth than before which leads me to believe the team is looking to build on this youth.

TFC tried the bring in older, experienced players and eschew the youth and when the team crashed and burned there was no base. So the team takes a step back.

Is it easier to go after a lot of older guys to make the playoffs but in two years, those guys retire or move on?

Why always bring up the fact he's Dutch? Who cares?

At the end of the day I don't care where the coach comes from or where the players come from. I mean would like to see Canadian players on the team, but it's not a prerequisite. I just want the best starting XI.

I just don't understand by saying you're willing to give the new guys the benefit of the doubt and some patience it automatically means accepting mediocrity?

Unfortunately, many supporters have become jaded as a result of the Mo Johnston era. Consequently, patience has worn thin in some cases, and unrealistic expectations have been placed on the the new management regime to build a winning franchise.

I agree with you. I am patient, but I'm certainly not willing to accept mediocrity as a supporter of this club. On the contrary, the reason I am willing to allow a reasonable timeframe for Winter to implement an infrastructure utilizing youth is because that will ensure that this franchise is competitive for years to come.

Shakes McQueen
03-26-2011, 05:47 PM
I just don't understand by saying you're willing to give the new guys the benefit of the doubt and some patience it automatically means accepting mediocrity?

This is what has always irritated me about these conversations. I often dread giving a nuanced position about the management of the team, because you get the predictable accusations of being an MLSE "stooge" or accepting mediocrity, from the usual suspects.

I completely understand the lack of patience among the fans of this team. While Winter hasn't been here the past four years, we have been, and the perspective that fact gives us can't just be tossed out the window because a new guy has comes to town.

At the same time, I've resolved to try and give Winter the patience and benefit of the doubt he deserves right now, despite the visceral emotional impulses I may have as an abused TFC fan. We can't project all of our baggage onto Winter, or we are inevitably going to end up spinning the coaching carousel after this season, for the sixth time in six years.

- Scott

Beach_Red
03-26-2011, 06:23 PM
^ Yes. The thing is TFC didn't just change coaches, there's a whole new infrasteucture (well, actually is an infrastructure for the first time) and a new mandate. This management team has three year contracts and all they've been tasked with is building the team, not building the FO, or waiting until there are profits to soend. We're nobody's stooges for seeing that the whole situation is different now than it was in previous years.

rocker
03-26-2011, 06:34 PM
This is what has always irritated me about these conversations. I often dread giving a nuanced position about the management of the team, because you get the predictable accusations of being an MLSE "stooge" or accepting mediocrity, from the usual suspects.

I completely understand the lack of patience among the fans of this team. While Winter hasn't been here the past four years, we have been, and the perspective that fact gives us can't just be tossed out the window because a new guy has comes to town.

At the same time, I've resolved to try and give Winter the patience and benefit of the doubt he deserves right now, despite the visceral emotional impulses I may have as an abused TFC fan. We can't project all of our baggage onto Winter, or we are inevitably going to end up spinning the coaching carousel after this season, for the sixth time in six years.

- Scott

damn right. people need to lose the baggage for a while. Winter doesn't deserve to be holding the baggage of Mo Johnston.

ExiledRed
03-26-2011, 07:08 PM
Well, progress is definitely evident from last week. A win was necessary and the team delivered.

We'll see it how it pans out when we face the big boys

ensco
03-27-2011, 01:18 PM
Winter had a very good 72 hours.

1) Getting Stevanovic in. It may or may not work out, but having a club like Inter (who still co-own the player) agree to send a 20 year old player here for development, is a huge endorsement of Winter.

2) Martina. What can you say? Winter picked out a young guy buried on Ajax's B team who, in one game, showed as much (or more) pure skill than any striker ever here. It's all anyone can ask for.

3) Getting a win in your home debut is always huge.

I'm still a bit worried about Winter and how he deals with players, have said so elsewhere, but man, he had a good couple of days.