There's Two Ways the Demand Curve Moves

[TFCRegina]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2011/03/21/17705486.html

I don't need to say much more. I'm sure they know how Supply and Demand work, right?

[cmonyoureds]

duplicate post? right thread? not sure but wow, this about sums it up...

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2011/03/21/17705486.html

what the "positive publicity" way of saying price freeze or decrease?

[adamdz]

I would buy some for coworkers, but they are too fkn expensive! Maybe I will lie and take them to a CSL game, they will have a better time too when I give them flares.

[Eastend]

I'm not surprised, but I have to say this makes me sad.

[Pookie]

The prices are the biggest challenge the team faces going forward.

The common perception is that once (or if) they ever start winning, people will support a winner and return.

I think that there is another reality waiting to smack the MLSE folks right in the face. They have the most expensive tickets in the league at certain vantage points and are generally in the Top 3 everywhere else. People aren't willing to pay that kind of money on an ongoing basis, regardless of what the "product" on the field is.

People came to BMO, experienced the atmosphere... that was purposely diluted over time in order to sell a corporate ticket... and decided, yeah, that was nice but not for a $200-300 day out (factoring in tickets, parking, concessions).

Winning will put some people back on the bandwagon but pricing will keep the majority away from a regular ticket.

That's what MLSE envisioned. 3 years ago, I had a conversation with an exec who compared TFC tickets with Leaf tickets and he commented on how the non-corporate average Leaf season ticket holder gets to roughly 6 games per year. They sell the rest of their games off or split the season ticket with friends.

That was the vision for TFC. It was why, in my opinion, the scalper market was allowed to operate and is why they are effectively killing a profitable, affordable venture in a cost contained environment.

[Cashcleaner]

The Honeymoon is over.

It was coming to an end last season, but now with ticket sales the way they are, it's clear that many fans have lost their faith in the club and there's no amount of cheering and singing that the supporters can do to bring many of them back.

Here's the thing - most people at BMO Field probably don't care that we're in a rebuilding year. They really don't give a shit because they don't follow the team and the league as much as many of us might. So when Tom Anselmi holds a presser and it's posted on the website or DeRo and Winter make some comments at the end of a game, it's only a few people who are paying attention and able to digest the info. The rest of the fanbase just wants to see results.

The last thing I want to see is this club paying in a half-empty stadium and running the risk of being moved or folded, but unless ownership does something about the quality of the product and does it soon, we could see exactly that happen in a few years time.

[reggie]

who gives a shit we still have more season tickets then the argos and blue jays and raps.and we sucked the bag for 5 yrs,its time to start winning.
when did cathy kelly start writing for the sun...

[DichioTFC]

The common perception is that once (or if) they ever start winning, people will support a winner and return.


Couldn't agree with you more. Winning cures all, but does MLSE really want a fanbase consisting of fairweather fans who only show up when we're winning (if they bother to show up at all)?

I'm not ready to say the sky is falling though. NYRB pulled through last season with new management (granted, with a couple international stars), and as long as we remain competitive, I'm convinced we'll be positioned well down the stretch.

[noochie]

no one wants to pay 51 bucks to watch a losing team in the rain. Build a roof... then 51 bucks wont seem quite so bad.

[noochie]

Towards the end of last season, I had a hard time giving away tickets for free... this year no one that I talk to is interested. There is a lot of positive energy surrounding the Blue Jays as well so the casual fan may choose to spend their entertainment dollars down at the Rogers Centre this summer.

[Pigfynn]

roof is necessary for alot of reasons

[Brooker]

I doubt anybody on this board or any other Toronto FC board is surprised there are many tickets left.


roof is necessary for alot of reasons

!!!!!!!!!

[Blowing Bubbles]

The red and dark greys are going to get harder and harder to move if the team continues to blow. The diehards will always come, but they're going to want to sit in the supporters section or the light greys.

[billyfly]

The high end tkts are too $$$.

Those were the first to get dropped.

The south end will see the increase next year to make up for the lost revenue in the red and dark greys.

[Darlofletch]

not surprised at all. they're still having to advertise half season packs. usually they'd have forced people into buying marlies tickets months ago.

hopefully they'll see sense and reduce ticket prices, but i doubt it, what was it the bluejays said? don't want to devalue the product, something like that.

[billyfly]

Reducing tkt prices is the last ditch effort. The Blue Jays went thru the same before Beeston took over again.

[AppRedDevil]

MLSE also appears to be restricting access to the new jersey to drive up the price. The die hards will buy the jersey because we love the team but I have not actually seen a new jersey in a regular sports store yet. On the other hand SVP sports in Alliston had 2 racks full of Whitecaps home and away jerseys at $59.99 on Saturday. MLSE are making the same mistakes that the Blackhawks made before Wirtz senior died in terms of milking your core fans. They need to flood the market and be the dominant team in town, not hurt your core group of fans.

[JonO]

They have the most expensive tickets in the league at certain vantage points and are generally in the Top 3 everywhere else. People aren't willing to pay that kind of money on an ongoing basis, regardless of what the "product" on the field is.

This man speaks the truth. My seats for the LA Galaxy (one of the other more expensive markets) would cost $400 less per ticket! Between my friend and I we had 4 tickets. This season we have 2. (I'm lucky he had decided to give his up and I convinced him to split mine with me)

[billyfly]

The problem with my situation - 4 tkts in 112 (me and 3 other guys) is that if we let them go, those are gone and I might never get back in.

[AppRedDevil]

The problem with my situation - 4 tkts in 112 (me and 3 other guys) is that if we let them go, those are gone and I might never get back in.

You can never let them go the supporters end is gold. We have 4 in 114 we sold off 5 games that we couldn't make to defer our cost as soon as the schedule came out.
:scarf:

[OurGame]

I was with a group of 8 guys since year one .. we are down to two tickets total ..

and that's more then enough for those greedy bastards mlse
they have royally taken advantage of us all and i hope they pay for it in the books..

team sucks my ass too .. expansion year 5 and no good signs as of yet chi ching

[Blowing Bubbles]

Couldn't agree with you more. Winning cures all, but does MLSE really want a fanbase consisting of fairweather fans who only show up when we're winning (if they bother to show up at all)?


It's not that simple though. I mean would you pay RED level prices for a perennial loser?

It's one thing if you're a heart and soul guy in the supporters section who will come out regadless of record, posts on message boards, knows the academy kids, etc ..... it's another if you're just looking it as "entertainment dollars".

They're going to fuck themselves with the pricing in the Reds / dark greys / dark blues.

[Nestease]

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/280/tomandfriends.jpg

[brad]

That's what MLSE envisioned. 3 years ago, I had a conversation with an exec who compared TFC tickets with Leaf tickets and he commented on how the non-corporate average Leaf season ticket holder gets to roughly 6 games per year. They sell the rest of their games off or split the season ticket with friends.



They're going to fuck themselves with the pricing in the Reds / dark greys / dark blues.

True and true. The expensive seats were an easy sell when you had people beating down your door to take the tickets you couldn't use off your hands - especially considering a lot of folks wouldn't bat an eye at selling them above cost. Now that you can't give them away, the cost of carrying those seats becomes even higher.

[TFC1154ever]

This is why i never understood the expansion of the North end... we were having a tough time get the stadium 75 percent full... THAT SHOULD OF BEEN A SUPPORTER SECTION and it should of been priced the same as ares, and i guarantee that it would of sold out and make sure people come to the games.... and the roof as well needs to put in.

[AL-MO]

As much as this club has been a 'success' at the box office, I believe its been incredibly mismanaged. (well obviously on the football side, but I'm talking about the business side too)

Instead of having vision and looking to grow this club over 10, 15, 20 years they have gone with the shortsighted approach and attempted to maximize their profits in the short term. Fine if you are a bean counter, but not if you are looking at the sustainability of a club. (and support of its 1st team)

If you are not a season ticket holder affordable tickets are no longer available. A member of this board and group just paid $42/ticket for section 114 for the home opener. So $84/pair. That is fucking highway robbery! No other way to put it. Especially when you consider the level of MLS football.

The way they have come to these prices is incredibly flawed too. Remember that bullshit TA line: "We've priced it comparable to other entertainment in the City" ?

Fuck off with that shit. This is football, not the fucking ballet. The world over, the most passion, rabid, loyal Supporters are usually the ones with not very much money. Other than Roogsy, ( :D ) you aren't going to get many greasy white collar bankers singing and playing a drum for 90 minutes. They would rather attend a stuffy Leaf game where they can comfortably sit and close deals on their blackberry's. You guys have taken advantage of us for 4 years and now you are paying for it. And you only have yourselves (and your greed) to blame.

[ginkster88]

The way the North End is built makes it quite dangerous as a supporters section. Somebody would fall to great injury in all the jumping mayhem.

[DavydMT]

Hey Al, i like ballet and can get tickets for under $25 for a good show. Next time in DC ultra trip to a ballet :-)

[AL-MO]

The way the North End is built makes it quite dangerous as a supporters section. Somebody would fall to great injury in all the jumping mayhem.

What??

This must be a death trap then:

http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/06/23/54822306/photos/BVB09/050BorussiaDortmund.jpg

[AL-MO]

Hey Al, i like ballet and can get tickets for under $25 for a good show. Next time in DC ultra trip to a ballet :-)

Fuck off and drink some apple juice D!

[Whoop]

I think he means the incline, plus the metal when it gets wet is slippery and is a tripping hazard, remember s2cazz mentioned that last year?

[DavydMT]

I think he means the incline, plus the metal when it gets wet is slippery and is a tripping hazard, remember s2cazz mentioned that last year?

Yep, i think the way Mike put it, if you miss the first step on the way down you miss them all and they had to put something to cover stairs during the rain.

At the same time we had number of people falling in the south-end, plastic seats are not good for you.

[Whoop]

The south end is a little sturdier than the north end. LOL

[AL-MO]

If that's what he is talking about, YES it is dangerous. (and I do apologize) But that's because it was poorly constructed.

But if you are referring to how steep it is, then you're definitely crazy!

:flare:

[AL-MO]

The south end is a little sturdier than the north end. LOL

Lets be honest with ourselves....the whole stadium is one giant tin can.

[noochie]

Lets be honest with ourselves....the whole stadium is one giant tin can.

I hope they recycled the roof when they opened it. If we can't have one, I hope they were respectful to the environment.

[Whoop]

At least the south end is concrete. ;)

[ginkster88]

I was referring to the Jack and Jill stairs. In a wet game, people crowding the aisles, someone would get badly injured.

[DavydMT]

At least the south end is concrete. ;)

so is cennetenial :flare:Be at the Academy games:flare:

[Roogsy]

I cant believe how they've managed to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It takes a special kind if incompetence to screw up success that has been handed to you on a silver platter.

[Shakes McQueen]

There was always bound to be some dropoff after the novelty of being on the ground floor of the hip new team in town wore off for a lot of the casuals. Of course, this is obviously attributable to a lot more than that.

And really? I'm happy for it. If MLSE treat their sports properties like a business, then the best way to send them a message is to vote with your wallet - and people have been. In droves.

- Scott

[MarkEightThree]

Was about to check Ticketmaster for a pair to the home opener when I realized that tickets STARTED at $50. Are they kidding? I don't mind throwing away $25-35 a ticket for the occasional game but $100/pair for a losing team? No thanks. Now I know why I wasn't getting any replies in the ticket trader thread!

Might have to start throwing my support behind Brampton City United FC [lol, still can't believe that name!], anyone else checking out some games this summer?

[Shakes McQueen]

They are still my team, but much like the Leafs, they won't be getting any more ticket or concession money from me until ownership demonstrates a sustained focus on winning championships.

And I say that as someone who thinks hiring Winter was a good thing. It's going to take more than a few moves in the right direction to get me paying for tickets again.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

They are still my team, but much like the Leafs, they won't be getting any more ticket or concession money from me until ownership demonstrates a sustained focus on winning championships.

And I say that as someone who thinks hiring Winter was a good thing. It's going to take more than a few moves in the right direction to get me paying for tickets again.

- Scott

Someone should be pointing TFC management to this thread. I get the feeling we're going to be seeing games with less than sellouts this season. And if the team plays bad right from the start and knocks themselves out of playoff contention, they'll be in a real shock come the end of the season what the stands are going to look like.

Maybe it's a good thing and the next time they build a so called "waiting list" they won't take fans for granted.

[Shakes McQueen]

Someone should be pointing TFC management to this thread. I get the feeling we're going to be seeing games with less than sellouts this season. And if the team plays bad right from the start and knocks themselves out of playoff contention, they'll be in a real shock come the end of the season what the stands are going to look like.

Maybe it's a good thing and the next time they build a so called "waiting list" they won't take fans for granted.

I've got a lot of conflicting feelings about the job MLSE have done as owners of the team, but yes, I agree with you that MLSE definitely took advantage of the early fan support, and it clearly made them complacent.

I suspect if the team falters on the pitch this season (even if I can understand it from the position of Winter building a true contender, as I've mentioned before), there will be shockingly small crowds as the year wears on. And MLSE deserve no less.

They made this bed, and now they are going to lay in it. And hopefully learn from it.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

I've got a lot of conflicting feelings about the job MLSE have done as owners of the team, but yes, I agree with you that MLSE definitely took advantage of the early fan support, and it clearly made them complacent.

I suspect if the team falters on the pitch this season (even if I can understand it from the position of Winter building a true contender, as I've mentioned before), there will be shockingly small crowds as the year wears on. And MLSE deserve no less.

They made this bed, and now they are going to lay in it. And hopefully learn from it.

- Scott

And hopefully they learn that Winter needs to be able to do what he needs to do with this club. There is no quick fix for this mess (and everyone points to New York but the re-building started there 2/3s of the way through their shite season). MLSE needs to be looking to RSL and taking stock of what happened there. Kreis had two important things to work with: time and the confidence that he wasn't going to be ousted in a coup. Winter doesn't need that, and neither do we, the supporters. It reeks of desperation and complete cluelessness.

The only reason this club even had a shot at playoffs last year was because Preki played defensively to cover for leaky backline. The only reason we had a shot in 2009 was because they signed De Ro who put balls in the back of the net like nobodies business and it made up for our defensive weaknesses (because our D was shite then too - remember Velez and Garcia at CB?).

And guess what, our D was shite in 2008 and 2007 too. Where are these fullbacks that we need?

[Red CB Toronto]

What I found interesting was that during one of the town halls I was at, Tom Anselmi stated that MLSE priced the tickets too cheap out of the gate, if you remember a southend ticket was $200.

The pricing was done when MLSE did not know what they had in Toronto, was it going to be 5,000, 10,000 or as it turned out complete sellouts, they simply did not know.

As a result of this the demand grew once word got out that they game day experience was amazing. I suspect alot of people really did not care about the actually team but enjoyed a cheap, fun afternoon out with friends while enjoying a few drinks, where most people gravitated to the patio.

Will it ever get back to that I am not really sure, it was to pardon the pub the in thing to do in Toronto for a period of time and it seems that has come to an end. I love coming to the games and following the team as most supporters do but do realize their is a cost to everything. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years in terms of TFC growth.

[Roogsy]

And hopefully they learn that Winter needs to be able to do what he needs to do with this club. There is no quick fix for this mess (and everyone points to New York but the re-building started there 2/3s of the way through their shite season). MLSE needs to be looking to RSL and taking stock of what happened there. Kreis had two important things to work with: time and the confidence that he wasn't going to be ousted in a coup. Winter doesn't need that, and neither do we, the supporters. It reeks of desperation and complete cluelessness.

The only reason this club even had a shot at playoffs last year was because Preki played defensively to cover for leaky backline. The only reason we had a shot in 2009 was because they signed De Ro who put balls in the back of the net like nobodies business and it made up for our defensive weaknesses (because our D was shite then too - remember Velez and Garcia at CB?).

And guess what, our D was shite in 2008 and 2007 too. Where are these fullbacks that we need?


I agree that it will take time. I hope that nobody mistook my unhappiness of Saturday's game to mean that I don't understand this. But my frustration also comes from fans looking to our academy to fix this mess. That somehow we have to "wait" for the kids coming up to be the solution to the bad contracts and underskilled players we currently have. Our academy is not the solution. They are a long-term cog in a machine that should be up and running by the time they can start producing MLS starters, which won't be for a few years.

The solution we need now is proper roster management. Good signings. Good scouting. And a management committed to winning and not playing politics and asscovering.

So far I don't have an opinion on Winter. I know many here see him as a saviour but I simply see him as another candidate that is going to have to show me something. Same with Mariner. Nice resumes but resumes don't mean squat until they're proven in our particular situation. In the meantime I will continue to be vocal about the problems I see thus far. And boy are they plenty of problems with this team. If they haven't even rid themselves of the problems of this team, when can we start expecting solutions to appear?

[TFCRegina]

I agree that it will take time. I hope that nobody mistook my unhappiness of Saturday's game to mean that I don't understand this. But my frustration also comes from fans looking to our academy to fix this mess. That somehow we have to "wait" for the kids coming up to be the solution to the bad contracts and underskilled players we currently have. Our academy is not the solution. They are a long-term cog in a machine that should be up and running by the time they can start producing MLS starters, which won't be for a few years.

The solution we need now is proper roster management. Good signings. Good scouting. And a management committed to winning and not playing politics and asscovering.

So far I don't have an opinion on Winter. I know many here see him as a saviour but I simply see him as another candidate that is going to have to show me something. Same with Mariner. Nice resumes but resumes don't mean squat until they're proven in our particular situation. In the meantime I will continue to be vocal about the problems I see thus far. And boy are they plenty of problems with this team. If they haven't even rid themselves of the problems of this team, when can we start expecting solutions to appear?

Well, you know what my opinion was on the academy signings, I think. So i would agree with you, but it's a temporary stopgap for other problems this club has.

The pair of them have their work cut out for them and need to be working together around the clock to fix the gaping holes in the backline. For 45 minutes on Saturday I saw a team that despite its defensive errors still managed to control over 60% of the possession (yes, yes, backpasses, but if you have the ball, the other team has a harder time scoring).

And really, who can tell me the last time we scored twice on the road in a hostile environment like that one. Anybody? When did we score twice in Seattle or LA?

Things are better than they seem on the pitch, and worse than they seem off the pitch.

[Shakes McQueen]

I agree that it will take time. I hope that nobody mistook my unhappiness of Saturday's game to mean that I don't understand this. But my frustration also comes from fans looking to our academy to fix this mess. That somehow we have to "wait" for the kids coming up to be the solution to the bad contracts and underskilled players we currently have. Our academy is not the solution. They are a long-term cog in a machine that should be up and running by the time they can start producing MLS starters, which won't be for a few years.

The solution we need now is proper roster management. Good signings. Good scouting. And a management committed to winning and not playing politics and asscovering.

So far I don't have an opinion on Winter. I know many here see him as a saviour but I simply see him as another candidate that is going to have to show me something. Same with Mariner. Nice resumes but resumes don't mean squat until they're proven in our particular situation. In the meantime I will continue to be vocal about the problems I see thus far. And boy are they plenty of problems with this team. If they haven't even rid themselves of the problems of this team, when can we start expecting solutions to appear?

Good post, Roogsy. I think it's daft to suggest we should wait for academy to save us LOL. I just think acquiring all of the right pieces through conventional means, and sloughing off some of the contracts we are currently carrying, will take some time. But I'm certainly not waiting for any of our kids to bring about our salvation, haha.

I'm not willing to pass judgment on Winter one way or another yet, either. I just want to make sure our justified anger and impatience doesn't prevent the fanbase from giving him a proper shot at turning things around - even if things get a bit worse before they start getting better.

Of course, all of that isn't the same as saying I think Winter is doing a great job so far. We won't know that for a little while yet.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

The MLS academies simply aren't robust enough yet - soccer in North America period isn't robust enough yet - for MLS teams to seriously consider building from within their own systems. There isn't enough talent there, and the programs simply aren't developed enough.

If TFC builds that nice new academy ground, that will be a good step in the right direction, but it doesn't change the basic above situation.

- Scott

[james]

ticket prices are a joke, and stadium is shit. Add some roofs, lower the prices...North End stand tickets should cost same as the south End stand tickets.

[FluSH]

MLSE also appears to be restricting access to the new jersey to drive up the price. The die hards will buy the jersey because we love the team but I have not actually seen a new jersey in a regular sports store yet. On the other hand SVP sports in Alliston had 2 racks full of Whitecaps home and away jerseys at $59.99 on Saturday. MLSE are making the same mistakes that the Blackhawks made before Wirtz senior died in terms of milking your core fans. They need to flood the market and be the dominant team in town, not hurt your core group of fans.

Personally, I haven't bought the new kit because it looks horrible... waiting for the alternate kit long sleever to come out.

[Pookie]

Some comments are drawing a dangerous correlation between winning and prices. ie. expensive tickets for a crappy product.

We should NEVER allow winning to be associated with ticket prices.

Attendance? Sure. Ticket sales? Sure.

But setting the price point based on performance? Never. Forget that it is impossible to forward price based on projected performance. Forget that it ignores your target market altogether.

It is a plan that screws your most loyal fans at a time when they would be at their peak of "happiness". Imagine, years of missing the playoffs followed by an MLS Cup Run and a 175% hike in your ticket price? It is a recipe for disaster though sadly probably in their cookbooks.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I agree that it will take time. I hope that nobody mistook my unhappiness of Saturday's game to mean that I don't understand this. But my frustration also comes from fans looking to our academy to fix this mess. That somehow we have to "wait" for the kids coming up to be the solution to the bad contracts and underskilled players we currently have. Our academy is not the solution. They are a long-term cog in a machine that should be up and running by the time they can start producing MLS starters, which won't be for a few years.

The solution we need now is proper roster management. Good signings. Good scouting. And a management committed to winning and not playing politics and asscovering.

So far I don't have an opinion on Winter. I know many here see him as a saviour but I simply see him as another candidate that is going to have to show me something. Same with Mariner. Nice resumes but resumes don't mean squat until they're proven in our particular situation. In the meantime I will continue to be vocal about the problems I see thus far. And boy are they plenty of problems with this team. If they haven't even rid themselves of the problems of this team, when can we start expecting solutions to appear?

holy shit dude, i agree with everything you said here and yet we've disagreed alot within the rant (maybe i have to go back and read it again, god that sounds like a headache in itself, reading the rant that is).

This is the question, how long do we wait to see results and what results will be acceptable.

In all honesty ive started to see results, such as the possession and passing we did in the first 30 mins. Is that enough? no but it is incentive to stick around. Is it going to win us the season? quite doubtful but at least we know the direction we are most likely headed in.

[London]

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/280/tomandfriends.jpg




YES!!!!! LOL

[Cashcleaner]

Personally, I haven't bought the new kit because it looks horrible... waiting for the alternate kit long sleever to come out.

I like the new top (not as much as the previous training top, though) but would never shell out the asking price for one just so I can say it's "authentic". Especially if what App is saying is true.

[CoachGT]

The world over, the most passion, rabid, loyal Supporters are usually the ones with not very much money. Other than Roogsy, ( :D ) you aren't going to get many greasy white collar bankers singing and playing a drum for 90 minutes. They would rather attend a stuffy Leaf game where they can comfortably sit and close deals on their blackberry's.

I can think of a few RPB that might have an issue with this statement, myself included. And a few people in other places in the world that might object to it as well.

May I suggest you choose your blanket generalizations a little more carefully.

[ensco]

And really, who can tell me the last time we scored twice on the road in a hostile environment like that one. Anybody? When did we score twice in Seattle or LA?

Things are better than they seem on the pitch, and worse than they seem off the pitch.

"Hostile environment"? You're kidding, right?

Scoring two goals on a day one expansion team is a sign of....nothing. (They were nice goals btw, but they're just not evidence of anything.)

Would love to understand better your cryptic musings about what is going on off the field - is it your opinion that Anselmi had some influence over the onfield use of Cann last weekend?

[boban]

The Honeymoon is over.

It was coming to an end last season, but now with ticket sales the way they are, it's clear that many fans have lost their faith in the club and there's no amount of cheering and singing that the supporters can do to bring many of them back.

Here's the thing - most people at BMO Field probably don't care that we're in a rebuilding year. They really don't give a shit because they don't follow the team and the league as much as many of us might. So when Tom Anselmi holds a presser and it's posted on the website or DeRo and Winter make some comments at the end of a game, it's only a few people who are paying attention and able to digest the info. The rest of the fanbase just wants to see results.

The last thing I want to see is this club paying in a half-empty stadium and running the risk of being moved or folded, but unless ownership does something about the quality of the product and does it soon, we could see exactly that happen in a few years time.
Your assessment is waay too doom and gloom.
This team ain't going anywhere. MLSE makes money at 14,000 and there will be more than that at games. In this NA culture people seem to think only sellouts equate to success for a team. There are 22,000 to sell. Who cares if 18,000 or 16,000 show up. The team will move not because of that.
Tickets are pricey, I am just blown away by the single game prices in the south end, let alone the other parts. But they have no choice but to come around and pull those prices back. Oh, and they have to start actually winning.
Which I don't believe they know how. Somehow, somewhere they should spin off TFC in its own.

[boban]

I cant believe how they've managed to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It takes a special kind if incompetence to screw up success that has been handed to you on a silver platter.
And then you have people in this town talk about there business acumen.
Seriously folks, they aren't that smart.

[Whoop]

And then you have people in this town talk about there business acumen.
Seriously folks, they aren't that smart.

There's an element to truth to that. LOL

[boban]

I agree that it will take time. I hope that nobody mistook my unhappiness of Saturday's game to mean that I don't understand this. But my frustration also comes from fans looking to our academy to fix this mess. That somehow we have to "wait" for the kids coming up to be the solution to the bad contracts and underskilled players we currently have. Our academy is not the solution. They are a long-term cog in a machine that should be up and running by the time they can start producing MLS starters, which won't be for a few years.
Yeah but people have a misconception that the Academy will produce some real improvement to the club in years to come. They will produce, the question is what. I say this because VWCFC started an 18 yr that was with the TFC Academy 2 years ago. For some reason he left here to go west. Well he played for 70 minutes Saturday and our Academy player came in in the second half and was schooled by this player. I still have no trust, nor proof that these academy players will be of any quality.

[Cashcleaner]

Your assessment is waay too doom and gloom.
This team ain't going anywhere. MLSE makes money at 14,000 and there will be more than that at games. In this NA culture people seem to think only sellouts equate to success for a team. There are 22,000 to sell. Who cares if 18,000 or 16,000 show up. The team will move not because of that.
Tickets are pricey, I am just blown away by the single game prices in the south end, let alone the other parts. But they have no choice but to come around and pull those prices back. Oh, and they have to start actually winning.
Which I don't believe they know how. Somehow, somewhere they should spin off TFC in its own.


I really didn't want it too come across that way. More cautionary is what I was going for. LOL!

Personally, I don't worry when we see games with only 18,00 or so coming in through the gates. Heck, a bad attendence number for us is often one that a few other franchises can only dream of.

But what I am saying is that our attendance does seem to be trending downward, and I really don't think the atmosphere the supporters provide alone is enough to sell tickets. You're right in that it's far too earlier to talk about worst-case scenarios, though. For all we know, the game on Saturday is gonna be a 5-0 blowout for us in a packed BMO Field and all the current negativity will be forgotten by the evening.

[boban]

There's an element to truth to that. LOL
It's true.
There's a saying I heard a lot in Croatian that comes to mind here:
"Lako sa puno guzico srati"

It's easy to shit with a full ass.

[Nuvinho]

I am finding it a little hard to sell my extra set of seats on a game-by-game basis. I have the regulars who pick up games, but with so many games earlier in the year (cold), its hard for me to sell those games. Its become more and more of a struggle to get rid of seats to friends, coworkers, etc. the past 2 years or so.

[menefreghista]

The rise and possible fall of TFC reminds me a lot of another Toronto team, the Rock. Their rise and eventual fall back to earth reminds me a lot of what's going on with TFC. I have a good friend that was a Rock season ticket holder and it all sounds eerily similar.

----------------

What I find interesting is that for the first time ever the home opener isn't a sell out at this point. Another thing is that they haven't even started selling the full season on Ticketmaster, only the first half.

TFC FO promised to not raise our season tickets for 2012. But if current trends continue they should be offering us a 23% decrease like what the Raptors got.

[Oldtimer]

MLSE needs to be looking to RSL and taking stock of what happened there. Kreis had two important things to work with: time and the confidence that he wasn't going to be ousted in a coup.


I've been saying for some time that RSL is our model on how to turn around a team in this league. Their GM and coach were every bit as crappy as Mo and Preki (actually, maybe even worse), and they had to start over with all of the same disadvantages. They hold some of those "terrible team" records. Yet in 2 years, they had turned the thing around. We (and ML$E) need to give Winter & Co. that kind of time.

The wrong model is New York during the MetroStars years. New coach every year, and endless floundering.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The rise and possible fall of TFC reminds me a lot of another Toronto team, the Rock. Their rise and eventual fall back to earth reminds me a lot of what's going on with TFC. I have a good friend that was a Rock season ticket holder and it all sounds eerily similar.

----------------

What I find interesting is that for the first time ever the home opener isn't a sell out at this point. Another thing is that they haven't even started selling the full season on Ticketmaster, only the first half.

TFC FO promised to not raise our season tickets for 2012. But if current trends continue they should be offering us a 23% decrease like what the Raptors got.

Ya! Decrease! It's a happy ending!

The Rock were nowhere near the popularity of TFC in their inception. A fun time but nowhere near capacity crowds.

[boban]

Ya! Decrease! It's a happy ending!

The Rock were nowhere near the popularity of TFC in their inception. A fun time but nowhere near capacity crowds.
Not only that, the Rock was actually winning when it was good.
TFC isn't. The team needs to put some winning seasons together.

[DangerRed]

MLSE also appears to be restricting access to the new jersey to drive up the price. The die hards will buy the jersey because we love the team but I have not actually seen a new jersey in a regular sports store yet. On the other hand SVP sports in Alliston had 2 racks full of Whitecaps home and away jerseys at $59.99 on Saturday. MLSE are making the same mistakes that the Blackhawks made before Wirtz senior died in terms of milking your core fans. They need to flood the market and be the dominant team in town, not hurt your core group of fans.

RealSports at the ACC has racks upon racks of TFC's new jerseys. They're not restricting a thing. :noidea:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I've been saying for some time that RSL is our model on how to turn around a team in this league. Their GM and coach were every bit as crappy as Mo and Preki (actually, maybe even worse), and they had to start over with all of the same disadvantages. They hold some of those "terrible team" records. Yet in 2 years, they had turned the thing around. We (and ML$E) need to give Winter & Co. that kind of time.

The wrong model is New York during the MetroStars years. New coach every year, and endless floundering.

yep exactly.

[scooter]

Fuck off and drink some apple juice D!

dont forget the meatloaf

[DangerRed]

Vote with your wallet, quit buying beer and food and merch. My only TFC related purchase this season, aside from obviously the season tickets, was the scarf I bought last week. No more of anything until the team improves. I started this with my buddies last season and we plan to stick with it until results turn for the better.

And beer tastes that much better when you're winning anyway!

[OurGame]

Vote with your wallet, quit buying beer and food and merch. My only TFC related purchase this season, aside from obviously the season tickets, was the scarf I bought last week. No more of anything until the team improves. I started this with my buddies last season and we plan to stick with it until results turn for the better.

And beer tastes that much better when you're winning anyway!


Good idea / if everyone avoided the beer that would kill there bottom line .. I heard they make an absolute shitload / game on ripping off loyal custo's with beer prices

[menefreghista]

Good idea / if everyone avoided the beer that would kill there bottom line .. I heard they make an absolute shitload / game on ripping off loyal custo's with beer prices

I don't know if its a shitload.

But a study from the 2007 season showed that the average person in attendance at BMO Field spends an average of $11 on concessions.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Beer $$$ is over and beyond the amount of profit from overpriced tickets. If this action is supposed to hurt them you've got a long wait ahead of you.

[OurGame]

soo 20,000 x 11$=

[DangerRed]

Hurting them isn't the point. This is as concrete a way of showing your displeasure as you've got, short of not going to games and not buying tickets -- which I won't do, because I love this team despite it's numerous problems. I could wave a sign or wear a shirt with a slogan, or I can keep my $11 (as referenced above) in my pocket.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Oh I know the concept. I don't believe it works beyond the personal level is all. I like the principle of it though.

[DangerRed]

Oh I know the concept. I don't believe it works beyond the personal level is all. I like the principle of it though.

I agree with you, it's purely personal. We're not deluding ourselves into thinking that what we're doing will sway any decisions at the MLSE level. This is just a little something that says, "this is where we draw our line as customers."

[Whoop]

The rise and possible fall of TFC reminds me a lot of another Toronto team, the Rock. Their rise and eventual fall back to earth reminds me a lot of what's going on with TFC. I have a good friend that was a Rock season ticket holder and it all sounds eerily similar.

----------------

What I find interesting is that for the first time ever the home opener isn't a sell out at this point. Another thing is that they haven't even started selling the full season on Ticketmaster, only the first half.

TFC FO promised to not raise our season tickets for 2012. But if current trends continue they should be offering us a 23% decrease like what the Raptors got.

LOL

This is what I was going to say.

I too have friends who WERE Rock season ticket holders. They eventually gave them up due to ownership clusterfucks.

But I remember a time when the Rock would get sellouts for every game during the season. Now, not so much.

Fact of the matter is even when MLSE gets sold, TFC will always be the #3 franchise in the empire, whether it's current ownership running it or [insert buyer].

[Whoop]

Ya! Decrease! It's a happy ending!

The Rock were nowhere near the popularity of TFC in their inception. A fun time but nowhere near capacity crowds.

Ummm... from 1999 to 2003 the Rock sold out every game. But they had two things going for them, cheap tickets and championship teams.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^I didn't see that. Good for them on the sellouts. I was going to games at the start when they were winning every year and the turnout was good but no sellouts.

Great sport. Great team. Is that why it had to leave our city?:o

[Whoop]

They still play at the ACC.

But they haven't won anything since 2005 and the Kloepfer era pissed off a lot of Rock fans.

[brad]

Hurting them isn't the point. This is as concrete a way of showing your displeasure as you've got, short of not going to games and not buying tickets -- which I won't do, because I love this team despite it's numerous problems. I could wave a sign or wear a shirt with a slogan, or I can keep my $11 (as referenced above) in my pocket.

To be clear - I am by no means suggesting people give up their tickets, boycott, ect.

However -

At some point though - people who love the team might come to realize that the best thing they can do for TFC in the long term is to stop giving money to MLSE (or whoever owns the team) and not to renew. Showing up week in and week out and supporting the boys on the pitch is critical for short term success on the pitch, but also gives the owners what they want which is $$$.

This is what has been happening with the anti-Glazer protests. Thousands of people have given up their seasons knowing full well that they will probably never get them again because they know the long term success of their club - not just in the next couple of years, but having a club for their children and grandchildren to support is more important than winning a trophy this year or having an awesome day out at the ground.

[kaos197O]

Vote with your wallet, quit buying beer and food and merch. My only TFC related purchase this season, aside from obviously the season tickets, was the scarf I bought last week. No more of anything until the team improves. I started this with my buddies last season and we plan to stick with it until results turn for the better.

And beer tastes that much better when you're winning anyway!

I did this for the last 6 or 7 games last season and will continue to do so 4 ever now. It turned out to be much easier than I expected. Rephrase, I will buy that refillable pop cup at the home opener and use it for the rest of the season. After that, zilch!

[Pachuco]

So according to the article, Toronto/Vancouver was the most watched MLS game in Canadian history. Of course it has something to do with the fact that Vancouver fans watched it on TSN as well. I can't imagine there were many TFC fans watching the game when the Leafs were destroying Boston in the middle of a playoff push. In fact, out of 11 buddies I've talked to, I'm the only one that had the TFC game on.

Anyways what I was going to get at is that a light just went off in my head. Now I understand the decision to move 20+ games to GolTV. Deprive your casual customers from watching the game on TV so that they feel inclined to watch a game at BMO. It's their very own version of a blackout.

Ok, I know it's a bit much, but seriously, this GolTV decision is going to go down in the books as another terrible business decision made by TFC's business folks. These people aren't as smart as people make them out to be. They've made significant mistakes in the past 5 years that lead to the outrage that happened last year. It lead to MLSE basically begging us to give them more time and it lead to them freezing ticket prices not very long after they thought they were untouchable.

[spark]

And really, who can tell me the last time we scored twice on the road in a hostile environment like that one. Anybody? When did we score twice in Seattle or LA?

October 2 ;)

[kaos197O]

Oh I know the concept. I don't believe it works beyond the personal level is all. I like the principle of it though.

It does and it doesn't. Collectively, if say 1000 people were to make the same choices as Danger and myself the $$$$$$'s start adding up. I saw an $11 per game average on concessions but I myself was buying 3 large beer and some snacks at each game. Easily $60 average when I factor in some merch purchases. Not all spend as much but some may spend more. While it's peanuts at the individual level it can add up if more and more walk away from them.

[Parkdale]

Fact of the matter is even when MLSE gets sold, TFC will always be the #3 franchise in the empire, whether it's current ownership running it or [insert buyer].


I don't know... if (really big IF) TFC turns it around and starts winning championships, they could probably displace the Raps as the #2 brand in this city. We all know that the raps wouldn't fly in this city if they wern't tied to MLSE (and by proxy, to Leafs ticket holders).

We'll never ever ever be the #1 team in this city, but I think that 10 years of winning and we could surpass the raps.

[Whoop]

NBA basketball is still bigger than MLS soccer.

Even in Toronto.

[Parkdale]

NBA basketball is still bigger than MLS soccer.

Even in Toronto.


the league yes, totally, but if TFC went on to be a winning dynasty (I wish) then it could easily be bigger than the Raptors.

let's be honest here, as far as 'hot properties' go in the NBA.... Toronto isn't on the list.

I know that that NBA will be bigger then MLS, but sometimes a big team can transcend that.

[C.Ronaldo]

bring back the cheap seats MLSE.

in total in 2006, I spent $60 at BMO (5 parking 30ticket, 25 beer)

now I still spend 60, but its (50 for the ticket - 10 for parking and gas) NOTHING on concessions.

push me over the $60 dollar limit with ticket prices, and you no longer have a fan in my seat


damnit, i just realised the increased margin from the ticket sale is more than concessions. BMO is still F'n me in the AZZ

[dupont]

It was so easy to see this coming WAAAAAAAAAY in advance... almost two years ago it became obvious that the downward slide was on the way.
The fact that the actual "businessmen" at MLSE didn't notice and adjust their strategy to offer a better value to the customers before it was too late shows that they either lack the business sense they think they have... or that they only cared about the profit for the current quarter and not of the next year(s).

[Oldtimer]

^ plus Anselmi didn't fire MoJo before he brought in Preki and destroyed most of what was good about the team.

[Darlofletch]

I think no-one really expected much from tfc, so the tfc guys were left alone to do their own thing, cheap prices/really connecting and co-operating with supporters etc etc.

problem is it became popular, so the higher up's noticed the potential money to be made, came down to bmo and slapped down the leafs playbook to make as much money as possible short term, and thus marlie packs, price raises, exploitating rather than nurtuting the support etc etc and so on.

unsurprisingly, tfc fans liked it as little as leaf fans like it, but without the tradition, the corporate support, the actual real waiting list and all that stuff the leafs have, there was no reason for them to suck it up and keep going, and without a winning team, the casual support is now falling off. not surprising at all.

[Mark in Ottawa]

The prices are the biggest challenge the team faces going forward.

The common perception is that once (or if) they ever start winning, people will support a winner and return.

Only if they can afford the "at the park" gameday experience.
Otherwise they become part of that infamous phenomenon here in Ottawa...
The Walk up Crowd.

This is where the club leaves itself wide open to effects of weather, other events siphoning off people and the effects of a temporary bad patch.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

i can deal with people not buying beers, snacks as a form of protest. I dont buy that ish any ways (or do so rarely). Its seems like a good form of protest without getting drastic like demanding yet again another coach to be fired etc.

[Pookie]

Only if they can afford the "at the park" gameday experience.
Otherwise they become part of that infamous phenomenon here in Ottawa...
The Walk up Crowd.

This is where the club leaves itself wide open to effects of weather, other events siphoning off people and the effects of a temporary bad patch.

True.

Just as an aside, I was in Tampa a week or so ago and went to see a Lightning vs Blackhawks game.

We had really good seats, paying $92 for a ticket comparable to the ACC at $200/seat.

The atmosphere was incredible. Like a playoff game. The building was full of fans of both teams. It wasn't sold out but it was loud and my "game day experience" was pretty good, considering these are 2 teams that I don't care about. The consessions were reasonable and I got some southern BBQ along with your traditional game options.

In fact, I got to thinking about the Leaf game that I took my son to this year. Utterly boring experience and honestly, if I am going to spend my money on a game, I'd rather figure out when the Leafs are on the road and give it to the Lightning organization.

They've created a better "experience" for my disposable income.

Contrast that with BMO, where if you are outside of 111, 112, pockets of 113 and 127, your "experience" is pretty much like a library. They've killed it.

It could be so much more. Standing rows at the back of every section (like 110) creating both atmosphere and a practical solution to the stand vs sit debate. The North Stand, now empty with unsold expensive tickets, could have been home to another supporter friendly environment, creating a culture that would make it "fun" again, regardless of the outcome.

I mean how many of you watch a Seattle game and marvel at the fact that it appears like the entire stadium is standing?

Their pricing isn't cheap but their experience offers much more (including free games and concession options to help STHs save money).

But the pricing policy is targeted towards a corporate fan base in Toronto and MLSE's experience with this tells them that corporate fans don't want to stand, they want a "club" option and apparently, cup holders. Unfortunately, this isn't the market that is going to support this team over the long term and the unsold MLS tickets, seating patterns for CCL games and migration out of the expensive seats are all messages that speak to this.

I wonder if anyone is listening.

[Mark in Ottawa]

They've created a better "experience" for my disposable income.
I wonder if anyone is listening.

That is exactly the point. It doesn't matter how they do it but they must generate that experience that wants you to part with your hard earned dough.

They have to be smart enough to call on all of the resources at their disposal including the more rabid part of the fan base. The stadium is large enough to accomodate the sedate, the interested and the over the top contingents.

The supporters are listening... seen by their actions...
The FO?? Remains to be seen.

[Beach_Red]

^ Even if someone is, we've seen how slow they are to respond.

[AppRedDevil]

RealSports at the ACC has racks upon racks of TFC's new jerseys. They're not restricting a thing. :noidea:

My point is that - I have not seen the jersey at a local typical sport store (Sportcheck, SVP etc.) Not available on MLS store and on shopadidas there is not an actual picture of the jersey just an artist rendering. Real Sports is owned by MLSE and there isn't one near my house. Has anyone seen a new jersey anywhere except at Real Sports?
:drinking:

[cmonyoureds]

Anyways what I was going to get at is that a light just went off in my head. Now I understand the decision to move 20+ games to GolTV. Deprive your casual customers from watching the game on TV so that they feel inclined to watch a game at BMO. It's their very own version of a blackout.

Ok, I know it's a bit much, but seriously, this GolTV decision is going to go down in the books as another terrible business decision made by TFC's business folks.

Agree completely. I didn't jump on and purchase into LeafsTV, and I haven't missed it at all. In fact I've found it distanced me from them a little bit. Same thing quite likely will happen for a lot of people with TFC.

[cmonyoureds]

I cant believe how they've managed to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It takes a special kind if incompetence to screw up success that has been handed to you on a silver platter.

Couldn't agree more. Through ticket pricing, security issues, concession pricing, F/O incompetence, on field struggles, really I'm at a loss to find anything done right at this point.

And it's not like they didn't have oodles of input/suggestions/complaints along the way to help them figure it out. Instead they continually tried to bend this thing to their own will through arrogance and self importance.

Anyone have that picture of the champions league empty building? Sadly that may be regular season this year also......

[AppRedDevil]

The one thing I will say is that it is the best football we get to see live. That's why I bought my season's tickets 5 years ago I bought them before the Beckham announcement as soon as someone said pro-soccer and Toronto in the same sentence this was going to be my local team. I am a Man U fan through birth but this is my local team and I want them to be a success, and so long as I see some signs that they are going to play with heart this year I think we will be ok.

[ArmenJBX]

They don't anymore.
I went on Sunday, very few remaining and few sizes too.
They have a lot of white shirts, short sleeve red shirts, but not the long sleeve red shirts which I wanted :(

[TFC07]

I don't know... if (really big IF) TFC turns it around and starts winning championships, they could probably displace the Raps as the #2 brand in this city. We all know that the raps wouldn't fly in this city if they wern't tied to MLSE (and by proxy, to Leafs ticket holders).

We'll never ever ever be the #1 team in this city, but I think that 10 years of winning and we could surpass the raps.


the league yes, totally, but if TFC went on to be a winning dynasty (I wish) then it could easily be bigger than the Raptors.

let's be honest here, as far as 'hot properties' go in the NBA.... Toronto isn't on the list.

I know that that NBA will be bigger then MLS, but sometimes a big team can transcend that.

Sorry, but MLS never would be more popular than NBA in Toronto. Yes, soccer is more popular than basketball in GTA (not sure about Toronto proper though), but MLS isn't top tier league like NBA. You're underestimating NBA here. Plus, giving quality of GTA basketball players coming up (who have a good chance of making it to NBA) it will be harder for MLS/TFC to beat out Raptors/NBA in Toronto.

[kodiakTFC]

Sorry, but MLS never would be more popular than NBA in Toronto. Yes, soccer is more popular than basketball in GTA (not sure about Toronto proper though), but MLS isn't top tier league like NBA. You're underestimating NBA here. Plus, giving quality of GTA basketball players coming up (who have a good chance of making it to NBA) it will be harder for MLS/TFC to beat out Raptors/NBA in Toronto.

How big are the raptors really? I don't ever hear anyone talk about them and no of only a few fans and i'm not sure they are that "hardcore." Their ratings are poor, they barely draw over 200,000 on TSN.

[reggie]

nba has its hardcore fans,but they will never win anything here,the top players will never come here has free agents,they will be lucky to have 500 type teams.
i have not and never will spent a penny on the raps to watch a bunch of overpaid thugs.

[TFC07]

How big are the raptors really? I don't ever hear anyone talk about them and no of only a few fans and i'm not sure they are that "hardcore." Their ratings are poor, they barely draw over 200,000 on TSN.


Bigger than TFC! Just compare ratings between these two losing teams...and unlike TFC, Raptors are actually competing directly against Maple Leafs for ratings on TV.

If you look at NBA playoff ratings and compare it MLS playoff ratings in Canada, it's not even close. MLS needs to be top tier league in the world if it's going to takeover NBA in Toronto.

[reggie]

[quote=TFC07;1253046]Bigger than TFC! Just compare ratings between these two losing teams...and unlike TFC, Raptors are actually competing directly against Maple Leafs for ratings on TV.

If you look at NBA playoff ratings and compare it MLS playoff ratings in Canada, it's not even close. MLS needs to be top tier league in the world if it's going to takeover NBA in Toronto.[/quot

if they didnt have MLSE backing...they would be gone just like vancouver.

[TFC07]

if they didnt have MLSE backing...they would be gone just like vancouver.

Last year Raptors were 3rd in the league for local TV ratings even though they were only 40-42. During Vince Carter years, the Raptors had highest season ticket holders in NBA.

BTW, you can say about TFC as well. If wasn't backing of MLSE, there will be no pro soccer team in Toronto right now.

[reggie]

btw...this is a tfc supporters club..if you love the raps so much go to there supporters site..do they have one?
im sure there will be some info on where the best strip joints and hookers are in this city.
btw why are they lowering the prices next year...how many private boxes have they sold...without the leafs not too many.cheers

[ginkster88]

btw...this is a tfc supporters club..if you love the raps so much go to there supporters site..do they have one?
im sure there will be some info on where the best strip joints and hookers are in this city.
btw why are they lowering the prices next year...how many private boxes have they sold...without the leafs not too many.cheers

Regardless of the name at the top of this site, many of us are Torontonians first, supporters second. You clearly have a social bias towards the NBA, and are being willfully ignorant of presented evidence.

I, along with many Torontonians, am more interested in seeing the Raps do well than seeing TFC do well. Why? It means more. Better league, better calibre, better recognition. The same goes for the Leafs and the Jays. We have three organizations in the best three leagues for their sport in the world and are flirting with a fourth in the most profitable and most prestigious in NA, the NFL; that's nothing to scoff at.

It says something that they're still drawing fans and a TV audience after losing their most best and most recognizable player and spending a year in the leagues basement. Two years from now they'll be in the playoffs and all you'll hear around the city this time of year will be Raptors news.

I wish TFC were better than they are, just like I wish all of our franchises could be successful. There is no need to use this board as a platform to abuse another Toronto franchise.

[SoccMan]

I agree we should not mock or degrade another Toronto sports team. However, if I were to go on another Toronto sport's teams supporters site and even mention TFC in any way I can just imagine the abuse I would get from the many soccer haters who follow the other Toronto teams. It has not been easy being a soccer fan here in North America over the years with the constant soccer bashing that has gone on and still goes on to a certain extent in the media and elsewhere. Therefore, when I hear someone say that a soccer fan should not put down another sport I kind of chuckle because us soccer fans have been taking it for so many years in this part of the world.

[ginkster88]

I agree we should not mock or degrade another Toronto sports team. However, if I were to go on another Toronto sport's teams supporters site and even mention TFC in any way I can just imagine the abuse I would get from the many soccer haters who follow the other Toronto teams. It has not been easy being a soccer fan here in North America over the years with the constant soccer bashing that has gone on and still goes on to a certain extent in the media and elsewhere. Therefore, when I hear someone say that a soccer fan should not put down another sport I kind of chuckle because us soccer fans have been taking it for so many years in this part of the world.

I guess we should just all hate on each other then :D

I see your point, but I'm of a mind to accept whatever sport a person chooses to follow. It's just fucking sports, follow whatever you want. People who discriminate about sports must be terrifically small-minded.

[SoccMan]

I know I don't bash other sports I enjoy all sports but soccer is number one for me,however, I'm still surprised at the amount of bashing this sports still gets here in North America. However, I'm very open minded when it comes to soccer and there are a few things the sport need's to change to make it progress with the times and I think make it an even better game.