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[NBF]
03-19-2011, 07:34 PM
Aaaarrrrg!

Lineup: 4-3-3

1st Half

----------------------Frei--------------------
Gargan-----Attakora--------Harden------Cann
--------------------Sturgis-------------------
------------Soolsma--------Martina-----------
Peterson----------------------------DeRosario
-------------------Santos--------------------


2nd Half: After all the substitutions- 5-3-2

----------------------Frei--------------------
--------Attakora-----Harden-----Cann--------
Gargan---------------------------Yourasowsky
------Maukubuya---Zaravise----Martina-------
-----------Santos----------DeRosario---------


Player Ratings:

GK- Frei= 5
DF- Harden = 3
DF- Attakora = 5
DF- Cann = 4
DF- Gargan = 4
MF- Soolsma = 4
MF- Sturgis= 3
MF- Martina = 5
FW- Peterson = 5
FW- Santos = 6
FW- DeRosario = 7

DF- Yourosowsky = 5
MF- Zaravise = 4
FW- Makubuya= 3


Formations: 4-3-3 vs 4-4-1-1

Vancouver crowded the midfield to stop the advance to the wingers and then took advantage of a slow responding centre back and another extremely slow left back. This was amateur football on behalf of TFC. It wasnt until TFC switched to a 5-3-2 and crowded the backfield that they were able to stop Vancouver progressing freely to the wide areas.

Post Game Conclusion:

No reliable Left back to push forward, Sturgis was horrendous as a defensive midfielder and Harden absolutely has to be dumped. I don't see how he can hold on to a job after this display.

TorCanSoc
03-19-2011, 07:36 PM
AAAaaaarggg!


I listened to the game on the fan. It sounded brutal. Lots of season left though.

billyfly
03-19-2011, 07:37 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JdFs87ua_1s/THR32izTEHI/AAAAAAAAJKw/c_Lk5r5w234/s1600/hindenburg.gif

justin
03-19-2011, 07:37 PM
hahahahahaha our backline is amazing :rofl:

LesH
03-19-2011, 07:38 PM
A very lucky and proud TFC squad gets beaten only by 2. :hump:
We should be very happy about the fact that the score was not at least 4 goals in favor of the Whitecaps. <3

So, are you guys happy? :scarf:


.
.
.
.






(Sorry for the sarcasm, but I can't comment anything else)

kaos197O
03-19-2011, 07:39 PM
I'm checking out. Gonna watch Match center for the rest of the night.

Not too depressed about the result. I can see direction and know that when we do finally get all the pieces together we will be a force to be reckoned with. Very entertaining match.

Congrats and Welcome to MLS Vancouver. Consider tonight a gift!

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 07:39 PM
Absolutely fucking brutal. I have no idea what Winter sees in Ty fucking Harden. You must see alot in him to play Cann out of position and to keep two natural LBs on the bench. Ty Harden is not cut out to play in Winter's system.

The defense in general was brutal. Got absolutely schooled today.

ParadymeTFC
03-19-2011, 07:40 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JdFs87ua_1s/THR32izTEHI/AAAAAAAAJKw/c_Lk5r5w234/s1600/hindenburg.gif

OMG too soon!
:D

jloome
03-19-2011, 07:41 PM
Basically we had a lot of good possession but our back line, save for Attakora, was a total shambles.

The decision to play Cann wide and Harden inside (and Harden at all) reeks of training camp politics.

Sturgis was totally lost, and Gargan just isn't good enough technically to play in this side.

Yourassowky looked good in midfield, as did Martina...on the few occasions he actually saw the ball. DeRo looked really good in a system. Peterson started well but was a shambles as a two-way midfielder.

Probably the first time in history a team has had 60% of the possession and given up four goals.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 07:41 PM
Repost of my last post in the match thread, adjusted for lack of context:

Winter hasn't finished building the club the way he wants it. He didn't bring in Gargan, Harden or Cann. It'll take him some time to populate the roster with the exact people he wants.

I said before the season started, that I'm fine with the team taking a step backwards performance-wise, as long as it was clear that a coherent system was being implemented, and players that fit that system were being acquired. I stick by that assertion.

Winter wasn't responsible for the mess of the previous four years - he just inherited it. He also inherited the angst and expectations of a success-starved fanbase, which I fear is going to compromise the ability of some people to give him a fair shake at the job.

I don't see this as a "rebuilding" year - I see it as a "building" year. Winter was left no foundations on which to "rebuild" something.

In fact, you could make a fair argument that Winter was left with worse than nothing - he was left with a mishmash of players, some of whom were angry about their contracts based on negotiations that took place before Winter arrived here.

- Scott

Batman
03-19-2011, 07:41 PM
on a totally different not...this DOWNHILL SKATING NOW ON TSN is pretty awesome!

Kc17
03-19-2011, 07:42 PM
If there is some positives to take from this game, these are likely them...

That backline will likely never play together again.

The team played a lot better after the inclusions of Zavarise, and Yourassowsky.

One can only hope Harden and Gargan are dropped from the lineup soon.

jloome
03-19-2011, 07:42 PM
I figure this will look a whole lot better with Cann and Attakora back in the centre of the defence and actual fullbacks.

Alonso
03-19-2011, 07:42 PM
Deep breaths is highly recommended.....

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:43 PM
Totall f*cking embarrassing. MLSE should be ashamed of themselves.

Winter has inherited a clueless squad.
The kid who came on and played right wing for us in the second half was out of his depth. He should be playing OSL under 18.
Their 18 year old Canadian kid was a player. That's the difference.

billyfly
03-19-2011, 07:43 PM
What pisses me off is the same issues again and again. Yes the devil is in the details but in general:

SHIT DEFENSE

reggie
03-19-2011, 07:44 PM
i dont watch tfc road games...what was the final and who scored for tfc?

Heathen
03-19-2011, 07:45 PM
Their 18 year old Canadian kid was a player. That's the difference.

Guess where he started

LesH
03-19-2011, 07:45 PM
Probably the first time in history a team has had 60% of the possession and given up four goals.

Welcome to the opposite of Preki's system.

boban
03-19-2011, 07:46 PM
Well this score against Van WC FC in year 3 wouldn't bother me so much.
But we are in year 5!!.. Making this loss tough to swallow.
This game just makes its abundantly clear how royally backwards MLSE has taken this team. Should have axed Mo after that shit show with Carver 2+ years ago.

Anyhow, having possession is all good and stuff but practicing the passing skills of and with your goalie ain't gonna win you any games. I don't how many times they have to pass back to Frei until they actually make tangible forward progress. And most of the game we were losing FFS!!!!! Attack guys. Move it forward.
And the corner kicks .. wow .. Something like 12-1. Unreal.
Can't wait til DeGuzman is healthy, we get that Stevanovic coming in, and hopefully that killer striker that we are sorely missing.
We're in a world of hurt right now, but with those players coming in we should improve.

Dave67
03-19-2011, 07:46 PM
i dont watch tfc road games...what was the final and who scored for tfc?

For real? 4 - 2 for them and DeRo & Santos with the goals. Santos with a stunner.

Alonso
03-19-2011, 07:47 PM
i dont watch tfc road games...what was the final and who scored for tfc?


4-2 Vancouver

Dero from a sweet pass from Santos

And Santos with a cracker of a strike with his left foot.

prizby
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
i don't want to hear that we are rebuilding
i don't want to hear excuses

WE SHOULDN'T BE LOSING TO A FUCKING EXPANSION SQUAD IN THEIR FIRST GAME

End of Story!

unacceptable.
not impressed

4 goals against, against an EXPANSION TEAM IN THEIR FIRST GAME


DISGRACE

They had better be doing wind sprints for the rest of the night...time to teach them a lesson

ManUtd4ever
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
If there is some positives to take from this game, these are likely them...

That backline will likely never play together again.

The team played a lot better after the inclusions of Zavarise, and Yourassowsky.

One can only hope Harden and Gargan are dropped from the lineup soon.

Agreed...

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Guess where he started
No idea, but he's a player and our kid isn't.
Just like the rest of both squads.
They've got footballers who are bright, intelligent and quick.
We don't.

markus
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Absolutely fucking brutal. I have no idea what Winter sees in Ty fucking Harden. You must see alot in him to play Cann out of position and to keep two natural LBs on the bench. Ty Harden is not cut out to play in Winter's system.

The defense in general was brutal. Got absolutely schooled today.


The defense was brutal since first game of the preseason in Turkey...so far we can only count on Frei, goal posts and cross bar...

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Welcome to the opposite of Preki's system.

Agreed. There are people out there who feel Preki should have been given at least two years regardless of the results on the field.

But now that we have Winter and a new system we need to be patient for at least two years...

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Well this score against Van WC FC in year 3 wouldn't bother be so much.
But we are in year 5!!.. Making this loss tough to swallow.
This game just makes its abundantly clear how royally backwards MLSE has taken this team. Should have axed Mo after that shit show with Carver 2+ years ago.

Anyhow, having possession is all good and stuff but practicing the passing skills of and with your goalie ain't gonna win you any games. I don't how many times they have to pass back to Frei until they actually make tangible forward progress. And most of the game we were losing FFS!!!!! Attack guys. Move it forward.
And the corner kicks .. wow .. Something like 12-1. Unreal.
Can't wait til DeGuzman is healthy, we get that Stevanovic coming in, and hopefully that killer striker that we are sorely missing.
We're in a world of hurt right now, but with those players coming in we should improve.

MLSE definitely deserve a lot of blame for the trajectory of this team since it's inception. But we have to try and give Winter a fair shake at cleaning the disaster up.

- Scott

GuelphStorm2007
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Our defence was totally brutal. Just giving the ball away . hell the Couve had about 12 corners to uor none that is ridiculas,

reggie
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
For real? 4 - 2 for them and DeRo & Santos with the goals. Santos with a stunner.
thx...for real....WTF HARDEN IN THE MIDDLE AND CANN ON THE LEFT...ARE YOU KIDDIN ME.

Dave67
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
The defense was brutal since first game of the preseason in Turkey...so far we can only count on Frei, goal posts and cross bar...

To be fair, the netting stopped a few balls also.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Totall f*cking embarrassing. MLSE should be ashamed of themselves.

Winter has inherited a clueless squad.
The kid who came on and played right wing for us in the second half was out of his depth. He should be playing OSL under 18.
Their 18 year old Canadian kid was a player. That's the difference.

I said it before this game. Makubuja doesn't impress me at all. I have no idea what Winter sees in this kids to make him think that he's ready for the big time. It's one thing to bring him up and have him play in the reserve league or to give him 5 mins of meaninless playing time. But to bring him on in the first game before even trying out more experienced guys on the bench was a hard pill to swallow.

MG42
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Why was cann playing fullback anyway?

Heathen
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
No idea, but he's a player and our kid isn't.
Just like the rest of both squads.
They've got footballers who are bright, intelligent and quick.
We don't.

He was with TFC Academy, not for that long though, before joining Vancouver

Keyman
03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Am I the only one that actually felt somewhat confident when we had the ball on the attack in final third?

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Zavarise and Yourassowsky should be starting every game.

swan
03-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Repost of my last post in the match thread, adjusted for lack of context:

Winter hasn't finished building the club the way he wants it. He didn't bring in Gargan, Harden or Cann. It'll take him some time to populate the roster with the exact people he wants.

I said before the season started, that I'm fine with the team taking a step backwards performance-wise, as long as it was clear that a coherent system was being implemented, and players that fit that system were being acquired. I stick by that assertion.

Winter wasn't responsible for the mess of the previous four years - he just inherited it. He also inherited the angst and expectations of a success-starved fanbase, which I fear is going to compromise the ability of some people to give him a fair shake at the job.

I don't see this as a "rebuilding" year - I see it as a "building" year. Winter was left no foundations on which to "rebuild" something.

In fact, you could make a fair argument that Winter was left with worse than nothing - he was left with a mishmash of players, some of whom were angry about their contracts based on negotiations that took place before Winter arrived here.

- Scott

i agree with you but fuck me this hurts

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 07:51 PM
Basically we had a lot of good possession but our back line, save for Attakora, was a total shambles.

The decision to play Cann wide and Harden inside (and Harden at all) reeks of training camp politics.

Sturgis was totally lost, and Gargan just isn't good enough technically to play in this side.

Yourassowky looked good in midfield, as did Martina...on the few occasions he actually saw the ball. DeRo looked really good in a system. Peterson started well but was a shambles as a two-way midfielder.

Probably the first time in history a team has had 60% of the possession and given up four goals.


AMEN!

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:51 PM
He was with TFC Academy, not for that long though, before joining Vancouver
So we didn't sign him, brilliant.

markus
03-19-2011, 07:51 PM
To be fair, the netting stopped a few balls also.

you are correct sir :)

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 07:52 PM
MLSE definitely deserve a lot of blame for the trajectory of this team since it's inception. But we have to try and give Winter a fair shake at cleaning the disaster up.

- Scott

Honestly Shakes, you are way too apologetic sometimes. The fact of the matter is Vancouver was an expasion team who put together a team in preseason that just whooped the asses of a year 5 team that looked like the expansion team. It's one thing if we were playing L.A today. We weren't. No excuses for losing this one, even less excuses for being embarassed today.

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 07:52 PM
WE were actually up for it in the first half, the play was open and the game was entertaining. DeRo's response to the firs goal was venomous, and although our players have the worst first touch I have ever seen, they were keeping the ball and battling it out.

When I saw that things had been changed around for the second half, I knew we were done for. We came out negative, disorganised and failed to adapt to their attack. Not only that but the amount of times we gifted this expansion side the ball was truly shocking. It was like the players had guns to their heads.

boban
03-19-2011, 07:52 PM
MLSE definitely deserve a lot of blame for the trajectory of this team since it's inception. But we have to try and give Winter a fair shake at cleaning the disaster up.

- Scott
Oh I don't blame Winter and I am actually rooting for the guy in every way possible.
Its just hard to see the light through this shit. I'm trying.

jloome
03-19-2011, 07:52 PM
LOL, I think we're going to see a lot of experimenting this year, and a lot of player turnover at the end of the year.

They seem to have made a three-year project, a la Winter's contract:

Year 1: Institute a system and culture
Year 2: Fix the roster problems
Year 3: Win something

Hopefully we'll see a little more movement this year though. Need another experienced fullback. Why didn't Bouchiba start, I wonder?

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 07:53 PM
Repost of my last post in the match thread, adjusted for lack of context:

Winter hasn't finished building the club the way he wants it. He didn't bring in Gargan, Harden or Cann. It'll take him some time to populate the roster with the exact people he wants.

I said before the season started, that I'm fine with the team taking a step backwards performance-wise, as long as it was clear that a coherent system was being implemented, and players that fit that system were being acquired. I stick by that assertion.

Winter wasn't responsible for the mess of the previous four years - he just inherited it. He also inherited the angst and expectations of a success-starved fanbase, which I fear is going to compromise the ability of some people to give him a fair shake at the job.

I don't see this as a "rebuilding" year - I see it as a "building" year. Winter was left no foundations on which to "rebuild" something.

In fact, you could make a fair argument that Winter was left with worse than nothing - he was left with a mishmash of players, some of whom were angry about their contracts based on negotiations that took place before Winter arrived here.

- Scott


Excuses. Take the job and start getting the job done. Vancouver is an EXPANSION side and managed to score FOUR goals against us. Building, rebuilding, tinkering, fixing...whatever you want to call it, this team has NEVER been ready for the first game of the season and it's pathetic.

boban
03-19-2011, 07:53 PM
...so far we can only count on Frei, goal posts and cross bar...
And he ain't all that. The guy makes mistakes too.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 07:54 PM
I said it before this game. Makubuja doesn't impress me at all. I have no idea what Winter sees in this kids to make him think that he's ready for the big time. It's one thing to bring him up and have him play in the reserve league or to give him 5 mins of meaninless playing time. But to bring him on in the first game before even trying out more experienced guys on the bench was a hard pill to swallow.

Thank you.


Honestly Shakes, you are way too apologetic sometimes. The fact of the matter is Vancouver was an expasion team who put together a team in preseason that just whooped the asses of a year 5 team that looked like the expansion team. It's one thing if we were playing L.A today. We weren't. No excuses for losing this one, even less excuses for being embarassed today.


BANG ON!


I feel like screaming this team makes me so frustrated.

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 07:54 PM
Did Dero do anything defensively or offensively after he scored his goal? In the end, in Dero's mind it is all about Dero... he'll be back in the MLS top XI...

boban
03-19-2011, 07:55 PM
Am I the only one that actually felt somewhat confident when we had the ball on the attack in final third?
When was that? :p

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:55 PM
If any of you saw the game, most of our possession was Cann, Harden, Attakora and Gargan passing the ball to each other in our own half which Vancouver were happy to allow. None of them can pass forward anyway !
What a fookin' joke this club is.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 07:55 PM
Did Dero do anything defensively or offensively after he scored his goal? In the end, in Dero's mind it is all about Dero... he'll be back in the MLS top XI...

HAHAHA. This is too funny. Yes, it was definately Dero's fault that we loss today. You are abosutely right. :facepalm:

Keegan
03-19-2011, 07:56 PM
Basically we had a lot of good possession but our back line, save for Attakora, was a total shambles.

The decision to play Cann wide and Harden inside (and Harden at all) reeks of training camp politics.

Sturgis was totally lost, and Gargan just isn't good enough technically to play in this side.

Yourassowky looked good in midfield, as did Martina...on the few occasions he actually saw the ball. DeRo looked really good in a system. Peterson started well but was a shambles as a two-way midfielder.

Probably the first time in history a team has had 60% of the possession and given up four goals.

Not even the first time today... Newcastle v Stoke

markus
03-19-2011, 07:56 PM
LOL, I think we're going to see a lot of experimenting this year, and a lot of player turnover at the end of the year.

They seem to have made a three-year project, a la Winter's contract:

Year 1: Institute a system and culture
Year 2: Fix the roster problems
Year 3: Win something

Hopefully we'll see a little more movement this year though. Need another experienced fullback. Why didn't Bouchiba start, I wonder?

...it should be: win by fixing the roster problems and instituting a system and culture...

Davenport
03-19-2011, 07:58 PM
Here's something to think about.
What would the score have been if their 3 best players hadn't been substituted.
Their best player went off at half time.

boban
03-19-2011, 07:59 PM
Excuses. Take the job and start getting the job done. Vancouver is an EXPANSION side and managed to score FOUR goals against us. Building, rebuilding, tinkering, fixing...whatever you want to call it, this team has NEVER been ready for the first game of the season and it's pathetic.
Exactly.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 07:59 PM
Honestly Shakes, you are way too apologetic sometimes. The fact of the matter is Vancouver was an expasion team who put together a team in preseason that just whooped the asses of a year 5 team that looked like the expansion team. It's one thing if we were playing L.A today. We weren't. No excuses for losing this one, even less excuses for being embarassed today.

I didn't apologize for anyone. I began by acknowledging that MLSE have had a big hand in ruining this club so far, and then said I think we should give Winter a fair shake at fixing it.

- Scott

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 07:59 PM
HAHAHA. This is too funny. Yes, it was definately Dero's fault that we loss today. You are abosutely right. :facepalm:

Whose the captain of this team that lost 4 - 2 to an expansion franchise?

twistedchinaman
03-19-2011, 08:00 PM
Defense is awful. If our defence was JUST ONE IOTA BETTER there would have been no way Shitcouver would've been able to get 4 goals. One maybe.

boban
03-19-2011, 08:00 PM
Did Dero do anything defensively or offensively after he scored his goal? In the end, in Dero's mind it is all about Dero... he'll be back in the MLS top XI...
Actually after he scored, he was back in with just in front of the defenders getting the ball so we can go forward.
Our midfield was useless.

nimamalek
03-19-2011, 08:01 PM
winter made a lot of personal mistakes that game... doesnt fill me with confidence, and i dont think you can have a possession game if you're just passing it along the back line

scooterTFC
03-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Zavarise and Yourassowsky should be starting every game.

Zavarise looked good on the ball. Hopefully Yourassowsky can be the answer at LB.

Soolsma looks way to slow for this league.

Walnut
03-19-2011, 08:02 PM
I wonder if Winter is clicking the heels of his clogs together -- hoping to be back at Ajax coaching the reserves and kids!

Going to be a long and painful season.

Only hope is the teachers sell their stake in MLSE and the new owners think beyond just steady revenues from selling beer, hotdogs, and sports entertainment.

moralis
03-19-2011, 08:02 PM
I think it's time to bring back the $ signs again and for fans to sit.

WE NEED TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

Enough of this SHIT

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Whose the captain of this team that lost 4 - 2 to an expansion franchise?

Yeah, ok there buddy. It's all on Dero. I can't be bothered to do anything other then laugh at your posts.

Blixa
03-19-2011, 08:04 PM
We got fucked by an expansion team. Welcome to $ea$on 5. $ame old, $same old.

gracos
03-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Dero can be accountable for so much, and we bypassed it, Vancouver seemed to want it more, and thats really unfortunate for us. We will have a while to grow stronger, and its going to definitely be a tough year, I am going to take this with a grain of salt year, and hopefully we can get our team to a place for contenders, within the next 3 years, I blame this loss on Mo Johnston

boban
03-19-2011, 08:05 PM
I wonder if Winter is clicking the heels of his clogs together -- hoping to be back at Ajax coaching the reserves and kids!

Going to be a long and painful season.

Only hope is the teachers sell their stake in MLSE and the new owners think beyond just steady revenues from selling beer, hotdogs, and sports entertainment.
Ain't no difference. One corp. entity for another.
Only hope is for a single person owner with an ego.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:05 PM
Whose the captain of this team that lost 4 - 2 to an expansion franchise?



:facepalm:

Just take the captains armband away from him already so this ridiculous argument never sees the light of day again.

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:05 PM
Overreacting guys, deep breaths now yes?
All in all, not a horrible result, we did manage to score a few but these kinda things just happen sometimes.

There's still a lot of season to be played, so busting out the "KILL ML$$$E" banners is a bit premature, no?

poppamidnight
03-19-2011, 08:05 PM
Soolsma looks way to slow for this league.

I was gunna say this too...

Makes Colin Samuel look like Usain Bolt!

ag futbol
03-19-2011, 08:05 PM
mixed bag ... I challenge anyone to say the majority of our attacking players didn't look good when they got the ball.

Problem was we're playing second choice midfielders and everyone on the backline outside of attakora is shit.

We could have bunkered back and lost it only 2-1 or some bullshit like that. But realistically we would have been no better off.

Davenport
03-19-2011, 08:06 PM
Zavarise looked good on the ball. Hopefully Yourassowsky can be the answer at LB.

Soolsma looks way to slow for this league.

Too slow for this league:

Soolsma
Gargan
Cann
Sturgis
Peterson
Harden

Flipityflu
03-19-2011, 08:06 PM
at least we have a little bite.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:06 PM
Whose the captain of this team that lost 4 - 2 to an expansion franchise?

Come on, man. DeRo might be the captain, but he's not the defensive coach, or the trainer, or the GM. The captain's armband doesn't imbue you with super powers.

He's not the Green Lantern.

- Scott

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:06 PM
Honestly Shakes, you are way too apologetic sometimes. The fact of the matter is Vancouver was an expasion team who put together a team in preseason that just whooped the asses of a year 5 team that looked like the expansion team. It's one thing if we were playing L.A today. We weren't. No excuses for losing this one, even less excuses for being embarassed today.

Honestly Pachuco, you are way too myopic sometimes. The fact of the matter is that Vancouver will win some games this year. The fact of the matter is that road teams usually lose in Major League Soccer.

Losing on the road in MLS is more likely than winning on the road.....

I thought the defense was shit, but the rest of the team was fairly good. The passing, particularly at the beginning and end, looked more like the CONCACAF game last year at BMO against the Mexicans.

Jeff s
03-19-2011, 08:07 PM
As soon as I saw the starting line up, I knew it was going to be an uphill struggle. We lost because of the following.

Harden
Sturgis
Peterson and
Gargan

Harden is shit. Thats all, and letting him play in the middle while putting Cann as a LB is a really stupid move.

Strugis, I think he just has 2 rules, pass to the defense and never get open

Peterson, its been talked about all the time in this forum.

Gargan, okay guys, he's nice. So what? He still fucking sucks. Somebody tell him that he's allowed to make forward runs for crying out loud. He's a USL player, thats it.

We lost because we had 2 full backs who didn't join the attack at all and not to mention, neither full backs have the skill to attack in general. We needed width badly.

Guzman was needed, he was the missing link between the defense and the Midfield. Its nice to pass the ball at the back, but this SCREAMS for De Guzman. We need a mid to pull back, make space and get the ball forward. But we had to rely on Sturgis.

poppamidnight
03-19-2011, 08:07 PM
Enough with this "Manager brings in old favourites" sh*t as well...

honestly - it doesn't EVER work....

I dunno about the "favour" factor in bringing in an old player under you, but stop with the bias...

Just FIND and BRING IN the most qualified players,
stop taking the shortcuts and getting the coaches to bring in guys they've had under them before

Davenport
03-19-2011, 08:07 PM
I was gunna say this too...

Makes Colin Samuel look like Usain Bolt!

Colin Samuel !

God we've had some quality players here :facepalm:

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:08 PM
Overreacting guys, deep breaths now yes?
All in all, not a horrible result, we did manage to score a few but these kinda things just happen sometimes.


I'd really like to know what a bad result would have been.

I agree the protest posts are silly...but that does not change the fact that this game was embarrassing.

TFCREDNWHITE
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
Mauyakubuya--(however u spell it)-- sucks, he is crap.

Zavarise--sucks, he has to be upgraded.

Soolsma--i dont think he is going to cut it.

Harden--sucks

Gargen--sucks, football IQ is low

Peterson--sucks

Cann--is being played out of position, might hold onto resentment towards
Management.....

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
agfutbol and Jloome saw it the way I say it.

Even my German soccer coach father said the overall organization and movement was better than last year's team.

The big surprise was having Cann out of position -- WTF? Harden wasn't up to it. Gargan wasn't up to it. Bring in some defensive players, please... particularly some who can pass (Nana was the best defender on the night but can't pass).

swan
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
Whose the captain of this team that lost 4 - 2 to an expansion franchise?


smarten up

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
If there is some positives to take from this game, these are likely them...

That backline will likely never play together again.

The team played a lot better after the inclusions of Zavarise, and Yourassowsky.

One can only hope Harden and Gargan are dropped from the lineup soon.
Yes please. I would add to your list that Maicon Santos was our best player today. He had a good game. Also, thankfully Gianluca Zavarise's ankle appears to be made from steel. :thumbsup:

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
mixed bag ... I challenge anyone to say the majority of our attacking players didn't look good when they got the ball.

If you can believe it, I in fact did hear it after the game. That our offense was just as bad as our defense.

I nearly had a coronary.

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 08:10 PM
Overreacting guys, deep breaths now yes?
All in all, not a horrible result, we did manage to score a few but these kinda things just happen sometimes.


It was beyond a horrible result, we did not score a few we scored two, and these kind of things happen to us all the time,

This was a pride match, against a new team, and we were humiliated again in a fashion that few past humiliations can match.

"not a horrible result"?

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:11 PM
I'd really like to know what a bad result would have been.

I agree the protest posts are silly...but that does not change the fact that this game was embarrassing.

Losing on the road in MLS isn't embarrassing. It's not good, but it's not horrible.

LesH
03-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Dero can be accountable for so much, and we bypassed it, Vancouver seemed to want it more, and thats really unfortunate for us. We will have a while to grow stronger, and its going to definitely be a tough year, I am going to take this with a grain of salt year, and hopefully we can get our team to a place for contenders, within the next 3 years, I blame this loss on Mo Johnston

Sometimes I just feel that our franchise is cursed!

...And Mo Johnston should figure forever on the FTC wall of shame.
Plus a MoJo puppet made from rags should be publicly hanged and then burned by TFC fans, in the middle of BMO field.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Honestly Pachuco, you are way too myopic sometimes. The fact of the matter is that Vancouver will win some games this year. The fact of the matter is that road teams usually lose in Major League Soccer.

Losing on the road in MLS is more likely than winning on the road.....

I thought the defense was shit, but the rest of the team was fairly good. The passing, particularly at the beginning and end, looked more like the CONCACAF game last year at BMO against the Mexicans.

Hey Rocker, how embarassed are you at Vancouver's results? how many times did I see you say they couldn't score a goal? Just saying.

poppamidnight
03-19-2011, 08:11 PM
It's the new hairstyles!!!!

DeRo needs to go back to the cornrows or fro-poof,

and

Nana needs to get rid of whatever the heck u call that... A head of crap looking dreads... Is it me - or is he slower???... Go back to bald and you shall again be swift-footed!

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:11 PM
I'd really like to know what a bad result would have been.

I agree the protest posts are silly...but that does not change the fact that this game was embarrassing.

4-0 would have been a horrible result. 5-2 would have been a horrible result. Getting red carded would have been.

I feel that, at 4-2, all we had was a game that exhibited our strengths in offense while highlighting our incredible weakness in defense. However, we know a couple things. We can score goals, we've got good players, and we need discipline.

Also, it's not the first time we've lost like this, nor was it the worst result we've ever got. Vancouver will probably not get anything close to this anymore, so let them enjoy their night.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:12 PM
From what I heard on the radio, it sounded like we were decent enough on the attacking front. If JDG comes back to shore up the defense, and we never see that combination on the backline again, maybe things will look better.

Despite the goals, 60% possession IS a positive. We just need some guys at the back who can do more with it.

- Scott

TFCREDNWHITE
03-19-2011, 08:12 PM
This team as it looks right now sucks so bad, that JDG will not be able to save it....

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:12 PM
Losing on the road in MLS isn't embarrassing. It's not good, but it's not horrible.


Losing 1-nil or 2-1 isn't bad. Losing by 2 goals is bad but it's even worse when you've let in 4 and you look like you don't know what you're doing. It...is...bad.


And then add to that the fact that it was against an expansion side. Fail is the exact word for it.

Davenport
03-19-2011, 08:12 PM
It was beyond a horrible result, we did not score a few we scored two, and these kind of things happen to us all the time,

This was a pride match, against a new team, and we were humiliated again in a fashion that few past humiliations can match.

"not a horrible result"?
It was a horrible result. TFC were crap.
Embarrassing in every way and their 3 best players were subbed.

scooterTFC
03-19-2011, 08:13 PM
I'm curious to see how Hassli does this year. He seems like the type of big rugged forward that it very suited to the physical style of play in this league. In the mold of Kenny Cooper and Conor Casey. If He pans out lots of credit to VWFC for scouting both talent and style that fits this league.

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:13 PM
Hey Rocker, how embarassed are you at Vancouver's results? how many times did I see you say they couldn't score a goal? Just saying.

Huh?
Why would I be embarrassed at Vancouver's results? I'm a TFC fan. TFC fans don't get embarrassed for other teams. Please clarify.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:14 PM
I'm curious to see how Hassli does this year. He seems like the type of big rugged forward that it very suited to the physical style of play in this league. In the mold of Kenny Cooper and Conor Casey. If y
He pans out lots of credit to VWFC for scouting both talent and style that this league.


You'd think we would've known to sign a DP like that. Vancouver could do it, why couldn't we?

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:14 PM
I didn't see it that way; I saw a bad game, no doubt, with a lot of promise. We must give Winter time. There's still many key elements missing. Yes, it stings, but think of it this way; if we lost to Portland instead of Vancouver, would it make things less "horrible"? I think it just hurts because it's Vancouver tbh.

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 08:15 PM
Was Steve Nash banging a drum on the sideline at today's game?

Davenport
03-19-2011, 08:15 PM
From what I heard on the radio, it sounded like we were decent enough on the attacking front. If JDG comes back to shore up the defense, and we never see that combination on the backline again, maybe things will look better.

Despite the goals, 60% possession IS a positive. We just need some guys at the back who can do more with it.

- Scott

95% of the 60% was Frei, Gargan, Cann, Harden and Attakora being allowed to knock it around in their own box by the Whitecaps.

The sooner people realise this squad is just not good enough the better.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:15 PM
What the future holds does not change what this game was.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
4-0 would have been a horrible result. 5-2 would have been a horrible result. Getting red carded would have been.

I feel that, at 4-2, all we had was a game that exhibited our strengths in offense while highlighting our incredible weakness in defense. However, we know a couple things. We can score goals, we've got good players, and we need discipline.

Also, it's not the first time we've lost like this, nor was it the worst result we've ever got. Vancouver will probably not get anything close to this anymore, so let them enjoy their night.

Sorry man. Based on circumstances. This goes down in the books as one of the worst losses ever in TFC's history. I'll say this tommorrow as well after I calm down. New York 5-0 was worst, but this is definately one of the worst.

A fellow Canadian rival scoring 4 goals on you in your their first MLS game? that's bad, real bad. Hopefully the team is embarassed and they bounce back at home next week. Because of this shit happens at home to another expansion team that will go down as the worst performance in TFC history.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
I didn't see it that way; I saw a bad game, no doubt, with a lot of promise. We must give Winter time. There's still many key elements missing. Yes, it stings, but think of it this way; if we lost to Portland instead of Vancouver, would it make things less "horrible"? I think it just hurts because it's Vancouver tbh.

I disagree. I think losing to any expansion side stings, because it just rubs in how little our team has progressed compared to other, newer teams.

I agree that we owe Winter more than one regular season game, but I also completely get the reaction to this result.

- Scott

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
Losing 1-nil or 2-1 isn't bad. Losing by 2 goals is bad but it's even worse when you've let in 4 and you look like you don't know what you're doing. It...is...bad.
And then add to that the fact that it was against an expansion side. Fail is the exact word for it.

Like I said, losing on the road is normal in MLS. A two goal loss is not a big deal. If it was at home, I'd agree with you. But if you look around the league, every season, teams have awful home records.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
95% of the 60% was Frei, Gargan, Cann, Harden and Attakora being allowed to knock it around in their own box by the Whitecaps.

The sooner people realise this squad is just not good enough the better.


75th minute, down 2 goals and we're playing keepaway in our back third. That's not possession. That's shooting yourself in the foot. They looked lost out there. That possession stat is highly misleading. My wife can attest to the fact that I was screaming at the TV "You're not winning!" They were playing like they thought they were up by two instead of down.

[NBF]
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
Too slow for this league:

Soolsma
Gargan
Cann
Sturgis
Peterson
Harden


Soolsma, I thought was decent, he might have been a bit nervous.
Gargan, Is decent, but he moves too far forward to be able to recover.
Cann, You are right about him but he's by far more mobile than Harden.
Sturgis, I think he's useless as a single anchoring defensive midfielder. He definitely needs to be playing along side another defensive midfielder, but not so far upfield as he played throughout the game.
Peterson, I think he had an average first touch for any MLS player, but his strength is after the possesion and dribbling down the wing. I thought Peterson and Martina were pretty good on the wings, IMO they should be starting.
Harden, I've been saying since last year in the first game vs Columbus Shit Crew. He doesn't belong in MLS period. Two fucking years he's been on the team, he needs to be cut this week.

Walnut
03-19-2011, 08:16 PM
Ain't no difference. One corp. entity for another.
Only hope is for a single person owner with an ego.

Like that clown who owns the Washington Redskins....???

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 08:17 PM
I dont want another 3-5 year plan

Why do we go through these 3-5 year plans?

Let's try Seattles plan.

Year 1 - get a good DP, a proven MLS coach with first team coaching experience, a few 'names', make the playoffs, win the US Open Cup.

year 2 - Adapt to roster changes, make a push for the MLS cup, win the US Open Cup again.

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:18 PM
I think...maybe people here kind of miss complaining to a certain extent ;)
It's game 1, we'll kick their asses 7-0 on the return leg, straighten um out a bit :D

jloome
03-19-2011, 08:18 PM
95% of the 60% was Frei, Gargan, Cann, Harden and Attakora being allowed to knock it around in their own box by the Whitecaps.

The sooner people realise this squad is just not good enough the better.

They do. It's obvious. That's not the point being argued.

The point is that there were good elements and bad elements. The defence was a fucking shambles. But several offensive moves and periods of possession were very promising.

Plus, it's fairly obvious where the talent gaps are. We're just going to have to lump it until Mariner finds the right pegs to replace those pieces -- and hope Winter limits the defensive experiments.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:18 PM
From what I heard on the radio, it sounded like we were decent enough on the attacking front. If JDG comes back to shore up the defense, and we never see that combination on the backline again, maybe things will look better.

Despite the goals, 60% possession IS a positive. We just need some guys at the back who can do more with it.

- Scott

Having 60% ball possession isn't a positive. If anything, it's the most useless stat in all of soccer.

Having said that, the positive from this game was our attacking players. Martina, Maicon and Dero looked very threatening when going forward. Even Zavarise looked good when he came on.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:18 PM
Like I said, losing on the road is normal in MLS. A two goal loss is not a big deal. If it was at home, I'd agree with you. But if you look around the league, every season, teams have awful home records.


Sorry I can't agree. If your team looks like they competed and threatened during the game and still lost, that's acceptable. But against an expansion side, looking like we're in shambles, losing by two but could have lost by more? This is a bad loss.

By your rationale, no loss on the road is bad unless it's a complete blowout by even more goals.

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:19 PM
Sorry man. Based on circumstances. This goes down in the books as one of the worst losses ever in TFC's history. I'll say this tommorrow as well after I calm down. New York 5-0 was worst, but this is definately one of the worst.

A fellow Canadian rival scoring 4 goals on you in your their first MLS game? that's bad, real bad. Hopefully the team is embarassed and they bounce back at home next week. Because of this shit happens at home to another expansion team that will go down as the worst performance in TFC history.

a 4-2 loss in the regular season is a 4-2 loss. It doesn't matter that it's to an expansion team. You are not being objective.

Objectively, we lost a game 4-2 and lost 3 points. It doesn't matter if it was KC or VAN or LA or DC. It's a 4-2 loss on the road.

We don't lose 6 points or 9 points for losing to Vancouver.

Of course, if we beat Portland next week people will be saying "well, you should beat Portland, they are an expansion team." But in the end it's about wins and losses.

poppamidnight
03-19-2011, 08:19 PM
So my old man's back home in BC for business this week - told him to tap the old whitecaps organization connections to see if he can nab a deal on a cap's kit to get it under $130...

....after the 4th goal I bbm'd him: "I no longer give a f*** if I have to pay $130 - it is embarrassing to wear TFC gear right now - i should just throw it all up on kijiji"

They built a team right (example: Hassli as DP vs. our Mista as DP joke), Marketed the team right, AND implemented an exciting on-field team...

3/3

TFC: 0/3

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:19 PM
What the future holds does not change what this game was.

And to go back to what I said earlier, I never tried to excuse or apologize for what this game was. Losing 4-2 to an expansion side sucks, and our defense was terrible.

I simply pointed out that Winter was left a shambolic situation, and he deserves some time to sort it out. This was the first regular season game of the Winter era.

That is not the same as claiming the current state of the team is sunshine and rainbows.

- Scott

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:20 PM
Worst player of the game for me was Nathan Sturgis, who single handedly stopped any access into the midfield from our backline.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:20 PM
Having 60% ball possession isn't a positive. If anything, it's the most useless stat in all of soccer.


I was watching the Arsenal game today and they were down 2 goals at the half with 65% of possession. Yes they came back and tied the game in the 2nd half, but the point is made. Possession is only one of many elements to what it takes to win.

MG42
03-19-2011, 08:21 PM
It was beyond a horrible result, we did not score a few we scored two, and these kind of things happen to us all the time,

This was a pride match, against a new team, and we were humiliated again in a fashion that few past humiliations can match.

"not a horrible result"?

listen to this man. Once again ER nails best post in a thread.

Roogsy
03-19-2011, 08:21 PM
And to go back to what I said earlier, I never tried to excuse or apologize for what this game was. Losing 4-2 to an expansion side sucks, and our defense was terrible.

I simply pointed out that Winter was left a shambolic situation, and he deserves some time to sort it out. This was the first regular season game of the Winter era.

That is not the same as claiming the current state of the team is sunshine and rainbows.

- Scott


I was responding to Armen.

jloome
03-19-2011, 08:21 PM
I'll tell you one thing: if we are going to take some beatings until the remainder of the squad is rebuilt, I'd rather see the kids play than guys we already know aren't good enough.

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:21 PM
Sorry I can't agree. If your team looks like they competed and threatened during the game and still lost, that's acceptable. But against an expansion side, looking like we're in shambles, losing by two but could have lost by more? This is a bad loss.

By your rationale, no loss on the road is bad unless it's a complete blowout by even more goals.

But you're projecting your emotions on this loss. Look at it with logic -- we lost 3 points.

There's no such thing as a "bad loss" in the standings. A loss is a loss.
There are no judges, like in figure skating, giving more points to Vancouver for looking good.

There's also no such thing as momentum in sports.

Now, the defense better get better or we're fucked, but it was one game.

Don't take it any harder than any other loss.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:23 PM
I was watching the Arsenal game today and they were down 2 goals at the half with 65% of possession. Yes they came back and tied the game in the 2nd half, but the point is made. Possession is only one of many elements to what it takes to win.

Actually, and although Arsenal had 65% of possession, it was atleast in West Brom's side of the field. If there is something to me that was obvious today is that the possession stat really needs to be modified to account for posession in the opposing side of the field. This would atleast give you an idea of the team that was absorbing the pressure.

In the Arsenal game you could tell they were going to get through WBA any minute.

Our game was a different story.

jloome
03-19-2011, 08:23 PM
I dont want another 3-5 year plan

Why do we go through these 3-5 year plans?

Let's try Seattles plan.

Year 1 - get a good DP, a proven MLS coach with first team coaching experience, a few 'names', make the playoffs, win the US Open Cup.

year 2 - Adapt to roster changes, make a push for the MLS cup, win the US Open Cup again.

Year 2, late - have your first DP implode on you.

Year 3 - Have your second DP implode on you, replace him with O'Brien White. Lose first two games of the season.

TFC Bhoy
03-19-2011, 08:23 PM
Just got back from Shoeless, we had a good crowd there and got some good chants going, and that was about the best thing. God that was brutal to watch at times. Couldn't close anyone down, our passes were shite, couldn't hit our own players at all. D were just a joke.

TRYING to look at some positives, DeRo had some nice play (though a couple of times I wanted more passes from him, but we all know that isn't going to happen), Santos is looking good still and will give DeRo a run for his money for top goal scorer for us this year. And as we pretty well say every game, Frei was great!!! Stopped a couple BIG shots including a partial break. If it wasn't for him it would have easily been 6 or 7 I think

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:23 PM
I was watching the Arsenal game today and they were down 2 goals at the half with 65% of possession. Yes they came back and tied the game in the 2nd half, but the point is made. Possession is only one of many elements to what it takes to win.

But it IS one of the elements required to win. It isn't everything, and I never claimed it was.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:24 PM
Actually, and although Arsenal had 65% of possession, it was atleast in West Brom's side of the field. If there is something to me that was obvious today is that the possession stat really needs to be modified to account for posession in the opposing side of the field. This would atleast give you an idea of the team that was absorbing the pressure.

In the Arsenal game you could tell they were going to get through WBA any minute.

Our game was a different story.

Fair point.

- Scott

wzhxvy
03-19-2011, 08:24 PM
Ah well...I am not as upset as I was in the past for some reason. I want to see how they play at home first.

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 08:24 PM
The point is that there were good elements and bad elements. The defence was a fucking shambles. But several offensive moves and periods of possession were very promising.

Plus, it's fairly obvious where the talent gaps are. We're just going to have to lump it until Mariner finds the right pegs to replace those pieces -- and hope Winter limits the defensive experiments.
I agree with theses statements. I hope that the obvious is recognized and addressed.

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 08:24 PM
Last year we lost 4-1 to New England during week 2 and still bounced back to be in the thick of things for most of the season...

LesH
03-19-2011, 08:26 PM
Losing 1-nil or 2-1 isn't bad. Losing by 2 goals is bad but it's even worse when you've let in 4 and you look like you don't know what you're doing. It...is...bad.


And then add to that the fact that it was against an expansion side. Fail is the exact word for it.

This.
I can't understand the guys who are saying this wasn't a humiliating result.

Alonso
03-19-2011, 08:26 PM
Like I said, losing on the road is normal in MLS. A two goal loss is not a big deal. If it was at home, I'd agree with you. But if you look around the league, every season, teams have awful home records.

You meant away records right?

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 08:26 PM
Ah well...I am not as upset as I was in the past for some reason. I want to see how they play at home first.

I will be interested to see what the reaction is from Winter, in response to the loss, and what adjustments he makes to the lineup.

- Scott

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 08:26 PM
It's a tough loss simply because we're playing an expansion side.
Although looking at Seattle, which expanded out of the lower divisions, being an expansion side doesn't necessarily make you bad.

Let's look now to the Portland game; an impressive showing at home, coupled with (hopefully) 3 points will stem the tide a bit.

Winter now has some defensive discipline he will need to instill into this squad. The defending was house league stuff. They have got to buck up.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:27 PM
a 4-2 loss in the regular season is a 4-2 loss. It doesn't matter that it's to an expansion team. You are not being objective.

Objectively, we lost a game 4-2 and lost 3 points. It doesn't matter if it was KC or VAN or LA or DC. It's a 4-2 loss on the road.

We don't lose 6 points or 9 points for losing to Vancouver.

Of course, if we beat Portland next week people will be saying "well, you should beat Portland, they are an expansion team." But in the end it's about wins and losses.

WHAT? seriously? Well let's see. If you lose to an expansion team 4-2 in the first MLS game of the season, an expansion team which by the way you predicted sucked and couldn't score. It's the same as losing to say RSL your first game of the season?

Really? You think it's irrelevant who they play? Sorry man, I'll never understand your logic and you sould like tonight you are hear to apologize for TFC's horrible performance.

scooterTFC
03-19-2011, 08:27 PM
Losing 1-nil or 2-1 isn't bad. Losing by 2 goals is bad but it's even worse when you've let in 4 and you look like you don't know what you're doing. It...is...bad.


And then add to that the fact that it was against an expansion side. Fail is the exact word for it.

Agreed. Losing in the opener to an expansion side is bad. Letting in 4 goals is terrible.

I think he was trying to say their were some signs of optimism for the rest of the season. And I agree with that sentiment. The back line can be tweaked, bench Harden, put Cann in the middle and look at Yourassowsky on the left. The midfield will get better with JDG on the field and 'Slowsma' on the bench. Zavarise showed well in the 2nd.

So yeah they sucked today...but they can get better.

I'm slightly worried about some of winter's player selections today. Hopefully he will quickly get a better feel for the league and the like of Harden, Slowsma and Maykouba will stay on the bench.

Alonso
03-19-2011, 08:28 PM
D were just a joke.

TRYING to look at some positives, DeRo had some nice play (though a couple of times I wanted more passes from him, but we all know that isn't going to happen), Santos is looking good still and will give DeRo a run for his money for top goal scorer for us this year. And as we pretty well say every game, Frei was great!!! Stopped a couple BIG shots including a partial break. If it wasn't for him it would have easily been 6 or 7 I think

Totally agree with this.... Santos will thrive in this system. He's going to have a break out year.

Cashcleaner
03-19-2011, 08:28 PM
At times Toronto looked rather shaky this game. At other times, they were downright embarrassing.

I actually left the bar during halftime and thought that even though we were down by one, we'd be able to pull something together, but boy did we play especially shitty in the 2nd half. Came back right after Harris scored his goal for Vancouver and couldn't believe how TFC was just teetering on the edge of a complete collapse.

I get how some are appealing for calm, but let's put things into perspective:

We lost.
4-2.
To an expansion club during their first league match.

And there's not a lot good things you can say about all that right now.


PS - Tell you what though, DeRo was yet again one of our best players on that pitch today. AGAIN.

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 08:29 PM
Santos' goal will be up for MLS Goal-of-the-Week... brilliant strike!

Walnut
03-19-2011, 08:30 PM
Last year we lost 4-1 to New England during week 2 and still bounced back to be in the thick of things for most of the season...

I in the thick of things a euphemism for being not very good consistently...?

werewolf
03-19-2011, 08:31 PM
uEOLQQgz7P8

noochie
03-19-2011, 08:32 PM
looking around the league tonight... Seattle has serious finishing issues... Portland doesn't look very good in the first half against the champs.

Every other team in action looks better than TFC by a mile.

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 08:33 PM
;1249244']Soolsma, I thought was decent, he might have been a bit nervous.
I didn't think he was that bad. He certainly wasn't the worst player on the pitch. I noticed DeRo and Soolsma weren't on the same wavelength. At least things with Soolsma look like they can improve with more understanding between teammates.

Heart of Stone
03-19-2011, 08:35 PM
I in the thick of things a euphemism for being not very good consistently...?

From week 7 to week 14 of last year's season we did not lose... yes, at that point of the season we were close to the top of our division...

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:36 PM
But you're projecting your emotions on this loss. Look at it with logic -- we lost 3 points.

There's no such thing as a "bad loss" in the standings. A loss is a loss.
There are no judges, like in figure skating, giving more points to Vancouver for looking good.

There's also no such thing as momentum in sports.

Now, the defense better get better or we're fucked, but it was one game.

Don't take it any harder than any other loss.

Hopefully you aren't in the business of coaching or anything. You know, some losses can be a morale victory because it's all based on circumstances.

TFC tying Cruz Azul 1-1 away from home was a massive victory. It was massive because it was never expected that TFC could go into Mexico and tie the Mexican giants.

Unfortunately your theory says, it was 1 point. That's all it was.

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 08:37 PM
Year 2, late - have your first DP implode on you.

Year 3 - Have your second DP implode on you, replace him with O'Brien White. Lose first two games of the season.

Ill take Seattles first two seasons over any two of our four seasons( and more than possibly, this one too) is all I'm saying.

noochie
03-19-2011, 08:37 PM
looking around the league tonight... Seattle has serious finishing issues... Portland doesn't look very good in the first half against the champs.

Every other team in action looks better than TFC by a mile.

Oh and an interesting (if unsurprising) note- doesn't appear to be a single sell-out.

jloome
03-19-2011, 08:38 PM
I think it's interesting that four of our five particularly weak players today -- Gargan, Sturgis, Peterson, Harden and Cann -- are our American starters.

denime
03-19-2011, 08:39 PM
I think we should fire Winter! :rolleyes:


WTF did you expect to see today,Barcelona or Arsenal?

There is no play offs this year for TFC ,and if you did not get that before today's game ,maybe you should stop drinking MLSE KOOL Aid.

Until we get rid of Preki's leftovers aka Harden,Gargan,Petersen,we can't play this system.We are better of with our Academy kids at least they can control ball FFS.

This is going to be a long season,so for your own good guys chill out, this was game 1 from 30.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:39 PM
Year 2, late - have your first DP implode on you.

Year 3 - Have your second DP implode on you, replace him with O'Brien White. Lose first two games of the season.

Again though, if there are games you are allowed to lose it's 1-0 games against NY and LA. Circumstances for Seattle are much different then they are for us. We just played what is supposed to be the worst team in all of the MLS and lost 4-2. Of course that doesn't even get into the quality of Seattle's side and how much better they have been then TFC in their first 2 years.

rocker
03-19-2011, 08:40 PM
Hopefully you aren't in the business of coaching or anything. You know, some losses can be a morale victory because it's all based on circumstances.


I can lend you the book Soccernomics (and some other articles) where it's proven that momentum doesn't exist in sports. The stats prove it.

If you want to believe in that myth, then go ahead.

Humans believe momentum exists, but it's unproven statistically.

ilikemusic
03-19-2011, 08:41 PM
This organization is so fucking pathetic.

Razcle
03-19-2011, 08:41 PM
Congrats to DeRo for scoreing the 8,000th Goal in MLS History

http://www.mlssoccer.com/videos?catid=114&id=12440

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 08:42 PM
I can lend you the book Soccernomics (and some other articles) where it's proven that momentum doesn't exist in sports. The stats prove it.

If you want to believe in that myth, then go ahead.

You c

Please explain to me where I even hinted at momentum having anything to do with what I'm saying?

RedsYNWA
03-19-2011, 08:42 PM
I dont want another 3-5 year plan

Why do we go through these 3-5 year plans?

Let's try Seattles plan.

Year 1 - get a good DP, a proven MLS coach with first team coaching experience, a few 'names', make the playoffs, win the US Open Cup.

year 2 - Adapt to roster changes, make a push for the MLS cup, win the US Open Cup again.

AMEN BROTHER

swan
03-19-2011, 08:44 PM
i lost 5 bucks to my wife today she bet van wold win

boban
03-19-2011, 08:45 PM
Losing on the road in MLS isn't embarrassing. It's not good, but it's not horrible.
It's not the lose so much.
It's the way we lost. We were schooled today. Period.

boban
03-19-2011, 08:46 PM
Enough with this "Manager brings in old favourites" sh*t as well...

honestly - it doesn't EVER work....

I dunno about the "favour" factor in bringing in an old player under you, but stop with the bias...

Just FIND and BRING IN the most qualified players,
stop taking the shortcuts and getting the coaches to bring in guys they've had under them before
Pretty much every manger in the world does this.
Don't see your point here.

Mikey
03-19-2011, 08:48 PM
Edmonton must be feeling pretty good about their chances of getting by us in the first round CCL match....

boban
03-19-2011, 08:48 PM
Despite the goals, 60% possession IS a positive. We just need some guys at the back who can do more with it.

- Scott
Did you even see where 80% of that 60% of possession was geographically on the field??!!
Come on man, they were playing passing games with Frei all game long!!!!!!!

boban
03-19-2011, 08:50 PM
You'd think we would've known to sign a DP like that. Vancouver could do it, why couldn't we?
1. You have to do some actualy scouting.
2. You have to part with some money.

JonO
03-19-2011, 08:51 PM
Bah - first half I thought we were unlucky to be down a goal. Second half I though we were lucky they only scored two. Losing to a shitty expansion side stings, but in 2007 Chicago lost 3-1 to a shitty expansion side that had never even scored a goal and still went on to make the playoffs that year.

It's a disappointing loss no doubt, but I feel that if we can somehow get a handle on our back line we won't be as bad as I though we might this year...

Heathen
03-19-2011, 08:51 PM
...
Also, it's not the first time we've lost like this, nor was it the worst result we've ever got...

Really? you could argue the Redbull massacre in 2009 was worse but this is bad

Kyle_121
03-19-2011, 08:53 PM
But I can help failing in love with you!

markus
03-19-2011, 08:56 PM
"Looks like expansion #Whitecaps (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Whitecaps) are off to a good start. Expansion #TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) have lots of work to do. Probably will get relegated." Gerry D on twitter

billyfly
03-19-2011, 08:57 PM
I'm pretty pissed.

MG42
03-19-2011, 08:58 PM
http://cdn.okccdn.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/1x1/500x1000/0x0/0x0/0/16891724049956885444

boban
03-19-2011, 08:59 PM
Like that clown who owns the Washington Redskins....???
Or the clown who owns NE Patriots.
Or the clown who owns the Dallas Cowboys (3 SB rings).
Or the clown who owns the Capitals.
Or the Clown who owns ManU.
Or the clown who owns AC Milan.
Or the clown who owns Chelsea FC.
Or the clown who owns the Chicago Black Hawks.
Or the clown who owns the Detroit Red Wings.
Or the clown who owns the Carolina Hurricanes.
Or the clown who owns the New Orleans Saints.
Or the clown who owns the Indianapolis Colts.
Or the clown who owns the ........

Walnut
03-19-2011, 08:59 PM
From week 7 to week 14 of last year's season we did not lose... yes, at that point of the season we were close to the top of our division...

Oh yes - I remember. Fortress BMO field -- where no one could win, not even TFC!

Lizzy
03-19-2011, 09:00 PM
Oh and an interesting (if unsurprising) note- doesn't appear to be a single sell-out.

Typically, the early part of the MLS calendar doesn't draw huge crowds (weather, NCAA March Madness etc) but the numbers in Colorado and DC look very good to me. Oh and there are 2 sell-outs - Vancouver and Seattle.

Walnut
03-19-2011, 09:00 PM
"Looks like expansion #Whitecaps (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Whitecaps) are off to a good start. Expansion #TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) have lots of work to do. Probably will get relegated." Gerry D on twitter

If only there was relegation -- it might provide some impetus for the club to improve.

shaggingscot
03-19-2011, 09:01 PM
I can lend you the book Soccernomics (and some other articles) where it's proven that momentum doesn't exist in sports. The stats prove it.

If you want to believe in that myth, then go ahead.

Humans believe momentum exists, but it's unproven statistically.

Funny but here I thought games were played by humans and not numbers?

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 09:01 PM
WTF did you expect to see today,Barcelona or Arsenal?No. I don't drink the kool aid and I understood the limitations of the squad. I got everything I expected from the game except the arrangements in the backline and our defenders just giving up on a few plays. It was great to see TFC playing against Canadian competition. I get why TFC fans are upset with a loss to VWFC but, they have some talent, are well coached, and their organization wasn't founded yesterday (Russel Teibert looked great by the way). The match was far more entertaining than many of the TFC games I've seen to date. I still see the same problems with TFC's midfield, but TFC made some excellent attempts to bypass this issue in the first half.

Heathen
03-19-2011, 09:01 PM
But you're projecting your emotions on this loss. Look at it with logic -- we lost 3 points.

There's no such thing as a "bad loss" in the standings. A loss is a loss.
There are no judges, like in figure skating, giving more points to Vancouver for looking good.

There's also no such thing as momentum in sports.

Now, the defense better get better or we're fucked, but it was one game.

Don't take it any harder than any other loss.

Sorry but that's crap, there are winnable games that you should be disappointed to lose and there are games you can reasonably expect to get nothing from that can be acceptable defeats.

ManUtd4ever
03-19-2011, 09:02 PM
Bah - first half I thought we were unlucky to be down a goal. Second half I though we were lucky they only scored two. Losing to a shitty expansion side stings, but in 2007 Chicago lost 3-1 to a shitty expansion side that had never even scored a goal and still went on to make the playoffs that year.

It's a disappointing loss no doubt, but I feel that if we can somehow get a handle on our back line we won't be as bad as I though we might this year...

Agreed. I overestimated the starting backline tonight, despite the fact that Harden and Cann were out of position. I would like to see Winter reunite Nana and Cann at CB and try Yourassowsky and Morgan as fullbacks for the next match.

boban
03-19-2011, 09:03 PM
Possession is only one of many elements to what it takes to win.
Vancouver won without winning possession .. ergo you don't need it to win.

TFC07
03-19-2011, 09:06 PM
I think it's interesting that four of our five particularly weak players today -- Gargan, Sturgis, Peterson, Harden and Cann -- are our American starters.

At least Cann had an excuse of playing outside of his natural position.

Anyway, what was Winter's logic behind his starting 4 backline?

Hopefully Winter makes some adjustments while Mariner brings in new players ASAP.

markus
03-19-2011, 09:06 PM
"Both Winter and De Klerk went over to TFC support to give a clap. Santos as well. The rest...." Duane R.(24thminute) on twitter

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:07 PM
Typically, the early part of the MLS calendar doesn't draw huge crowds (weather, NCAA March Madness etc) but the numbers in Colorado and DC look very good to me. Oh and there are 2 sell-outs - Vancouver and Seattle.

Well, Seattle is playing in NY tonight so it is tough to sell out Qwest. And yeah, I thought Vancouver was implied ;-)

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 09:08 PM
This is, I think, where I think TFC will regret not capitalizing on the expansion draft.
Players like Hejduk, Padula and Jimmy Conrad moved on, we could have some valuable experience here, as opposed to..Ty Harden

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:10 PM
A lot of the seats in Colorado are occupied by Timbers fans... they have filled 2 entire sections of DSG Park.

MG42
03-19-2011, 09:11 PM
Winter post game

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?id=2883

DeRo post game

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?id=2883

CanadaHammer
03-19-2011, 09:13 PM
I think Harden must have played the worst match ever seen in a TFC jersey. Ever. Absolutely diabolical.

MG42
03-19-2011, 09:16 PM
^ lol diabolical!

prizby
03-19-2011, 09:17 PM
Steven Beattie tweet:

"Watched the #TFC (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23TFC) game.. Feel for the fans I really do. Seen it coming though same results in pre season. Coaches need to sort it out asap!"

http://twitter.com/#!/steven5beattie/status/49284215396769792

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:18 PM
I think Harden must have played the worst match ever seen in a TFC jersey. Ever. Absolutely diabolical.

He's simply not cut out to play in Winter's system. Preki's system made him look decent, although I always looked at him as an individual player and that he was absolutely brutal. But in this system he'll be exposed all season long if Winter plans on playing him.

If there was one kid that deserved a shot tonight it was Morgan at LB. In my opinion, alot more important to keep Cann and Nana together then to to play Harden at CB.

Walnut
03-19-2011, 09:18 PM
I think Harden must have played the worst match ever seen in a TFC jersey. Ever. Absolutely diabolical.

He is up against some pretty stiff competition.

Walnut
03-19-2011, 09:19 PM
He's simply not cut out to play in Winter's system. Preki's system made him look decent, although I always looked at him as an individual player and that he was absolutely brutal. But in this system he'll be exposed all season long if Winter plans on playing him.

What is Winter's system -- 4-3-3 or 5-3-2...?

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:19 PM
Harden had a huge limp on with an icepack on his knee after the game (in that Dero interview) at least I think that was him. Ruled out for Home Opener? please...

werewolf
03-19-2011, 09:19 PM
I had the same reaction to the game, as I did to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0

swan
03-19-2011, 09:22 PM
Or the clown who owns NE Patriots.
Or the clown who owns the Dallas Cowboys (3 SB rings).
Or the clown who owns the Capitals.
Or the Clown who owns ManU.
Or the clown who owns AC Milan.
Or the clown who owns Chelsea FC.
Or the clown who owns the Chicago Black Hawks.
Or the clown who owns the Detroit Red Wings.
Or the clown who owns the Carolina Hurricanes.
Or the clown who owns the New Orleans Saints.
Or the clown who owns the Indianapolis Colts.
Or the clown who owns the ........

can't agree with you on this one him and his wife are actually good owners

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:22 PM
What is Winter's system -- 4-3-3 or 5-3-2...?

Out of those two it resembles at 4-3-3. But it's not so much the formation. It's the mentality and the reliance on the defenders to break out of their own half with the ball at their feet. As oppposed to Frei booting the ball up field. That's where you can't have a guy with Harden's skill level trying break out passes in the middle of the field.

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 09:23 PM
"Both Winter and De Klerk went over to TFC support to give a clap. Santos as well. The rest...." Duane R.(24thminute) on twitter
He's one guy who has looked genuinely happy to play for Toronto ever since he arrived and he's tried hard when he's been given the chance. Maicon Santos was first class tonight.

Lizzy
03-19-2011, 09:24 PM
Well, Seattle is playing in NY tonight so it is tough to sell out Qwest. And yeah, I thought Vancouver was implied ;-)

36k for Tuesday vs LA is still part of Week 1

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:25 PM
36k for Tuesday vs LA is still part of Week 1

Ok, I will let you read my first post that said "Around the league tonight"

Blowing Bubbles
03-19-2011, 09:25 PM
a 4-2 loss in the regular season is a 4-2 loss. It doesn't matter that it's to an expansion team. You are not being objective.

Objectively, we lost a game 4-2 and lost 3 points. It doesn't matter if it was KC or VAN or LA or DC. It's a 4-2 loss on the road.


this statement only makes sense if you think the probability of winning every away game is the same.

and if you think the chances of getting points away to Vancouver are the same as away to LA ...... cmonson.

To make the playoffs you're going to have to get SOME away points ..... and we just pissed away one of the easier away games.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:26 PM
He's one guy who has looked genuinely happy to play for Toronto ever since he arrived. He tried hard when he's been given the chance. Maicon Santos was first class tonight.

Said it yesterday. Maicon deseves a shot at starting as our striker this season. Unless we can replace him with a long term solution who is obviously better then he is. Personally though, I think he'll have a break out year if he's given a chance.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:29 PM
this statement only makes sense if you think the probability of winning every away game is the same.

and if you think the chances of getting points away to Vancouver are the same as away to LA ...... cmonson.

To make the playoffs you're going to have to get SOME away points ..... and we just pissed away one of the easier away games.

According to Rocker, circumstances don't matter. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. The hypocrisy of it all is that he suggests to take one circumstance into account, which is the fact we were on the road. But not the other, the one that says we were playing an expansion team in their first MLS game.

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:29 PM
Said it yesterday. Maicon deseves a shot at starting as our striker this season. Unless we can replace him with a long term solution who is obviously better then he is. Personally though, I think he'll have a break out year if he's given a chance.

Yes but that feed to Dero in the game today... maybe he should play just behind the front guys. He is definitely dangerous when he has possession... it just doesn't happen that often.

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 09:31 PM
this statement only makes sense if you think the probability of winning every away game is the same.

and if you think the chances of getting points away to Vancouver are the same as away to LA ...... cmonson.

To make the playoffs you're going to have to get SOME away points ..... and we just pissed away one of the easier away games.

What he's saying (I think) is that it doesnt matter who we play on the road, theres a 90% probability we will lose.

I think if we combined all the points weve gained on the road, in four seasons and added them to whatever we make this year, the playoffs would still be a longshot.

jazzy
03-19-2011, 09:32 PM
Repost of my last post in the match thread, adjusted for lack of context:

Winter hasn't finished building the club the way he wants it. He didn't bring in Gargan, Harden or Cann. It'll take him some time to populate the roster with the exact people he wants.

I said before the season started, that I'm fine with the team taking a step backwards performance-wise, as long as it was clear that a coherent system was being implemented, and players that fit that system were being acquired. I stick by that assertion.

Winter wasn't responsible for the mess of the previous four years - he just inherited it. He also inherited the angst and expectations of a success-starved fanbase, which I fear is going to compromise the ability of some people to give him a fair shake at the job.

I don't see this as a "rebuilding" year - I see it as a "building" year. Winter was left no foundations on which to "rebuild" something.

In fact, you could make a fair argument that Winter was left with worse than nothing - he was left with a mishmash of players, some of whom were angry about their contracts based on negotiations that took place before Winter arrived here.

- Scott

Your right of course but I feel violated

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 09:33 PM
Said it yesterday. Maicon deseves a shot at starting as our striker this season. Unless we can replace him with a long term solution who is obviously better then he is. Personally though, I think he'll have a break out year if he's given a chance.

In his limited time with the team last season, I was really impressed with the quality of Maicon's shots and passes. I'm with you on this one.

He's also one of few TFC players in history who seems to understand the art of the through ball.

- Scott

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:36 PM
In his limited time with the team last season, I was really impressed with the quality of Maicon's shots and passes. I'm with you on this one.

He's also one of few TFC players in history who seems to understand the art of the through ball.

- Scott

He has serious vision as Noochie said. Need to figure out a way to get him more involved because at times in the first half we just couldn't get the ball to him.

KGH
03-19-2011, 09:40 PM
Why wasn't Gordon playing? Has he even practised with the team yet?

ArmenJBX
03-19-2011, 09:40 PM
He has serious vision as Noochie said. Need to figure out a way to get him more involved because at times in the first half we just couldn't get the ball to him.

I suspect it's the link-up play - or rather, lack of link up play - from our midfield that saw Maicon emptyhanded.

We see very clearly that, once Yourassowsky and Zavarise came in, establishing a link from Defense to Offense, Maicon came alive and scored. Not only that, but he also provided, on two opportunities, through passes to Javier Martina and De Rosario respectively.

I believe that the spot in midfield has been lost by Jacob Peterson and Nathan Sturgis. Peterson is a winger first, and Sturgis should be used sparingly, to replace De Rosario and not the defensive midfielders.

As for the defensive line, it is abundantly clear that Adrian Cann is no left-back. Reshuffling the backline and - probably most important - signing a new left-back (or placing Yourassowsky there) will make the backline a little tighter.

Just my view of the squad.

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:43 PM
Why wasn't Gordon playing? Has he even practised with the team yet?

I don't think so, but I do think that once he does, he helps things out. It looks like this "system" could use a big man to play off of... hold up the ball and cause some issues in the box. Then you can play Dero down the right and Martina on the left with Santos right in behind them.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:46 PM
I don't think so, but I do think that once he does, he helps things out. It looks like this "system" could use a big man to play off of... hold up the ball and cause some issues in the box. Then you can play Dero down the right and Martina on the left with Santos right in behind them.

This I like. Then we don't have to try and play Soolsma or Makubuja on the wing. I don't think Gordon is the best thing since sliced bread. But I also think it's a better option than the alternative.

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 09:47 PM
Why wasn't Gordon playing? Has he even practised with the team yet?
The last thing TFC needed was a replacement at centre forward.

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:48 PM
This I like. Then we don't have to try and play Soolsma or Makubuja on the wing. I don't think Gordon is the best thing since sliced bread. But I also think it's a better option than the alternative.

Yeah, we certainly shouldn't expect a lot of finish from Gordon, but he is a feisty big man that can open up a lot of options coming in off the wings because of his presence in the box... allow Maicon to slip in through the top (a role he seems to relish) ;-)

TFCDP
03-19-2011, 09:49 PM
Had to pvr the game and just finished watching it.... Its amazing how much easier the last quarter of the game was to watch in fast forward... way less painful.. Havent gone through all 7 pages of the thread but man, was the possession ever misleading.. It's a shame playing keep away amongst our back 4 counts as possession... also, Vancouvers possession kept getting interrupted by their goals..

Side note... Anyone so disgusted that they want to sell me their seat in 112 next week.:D

KGH
03-19-2011, 09:49 PM
I don't think so, but I do think that once he does, he helps things out. It looks like this "system" could use a big man to play off of... hold up the ball and cause some issues in the box. Then you can play Dero down the right and Martina on the left with Santos right in behind them.

Is this normal for a traded player to take so long to show up? The trade happened on the 11th. Most other leagues it's 1-2 days and you're expected to show up. I wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:50 PM
The last thing TFC needed was a replacement at centre forward.

But if listen to the other suggestions. Move Dero to the wing where he's played a lot in his career. Move Maicon back just a touch to get him more involved in the play and give him an opportunity to turn with the ball and make things happen, then you can have Gordon playing just in front of him. Personally I think it's a better formation. Based on what I remember from Gordon. Of course he could turn out to be crap with TFC as well. He's a big unknown right now.

swan
03-19-2011, 09:51 PM
He's one guy who has looked genuinely happy to play for Toronto ever since he arrived and he's tried hard when he's been given the chance. Maicon Santos was first class tonight.

is it to early to say player of the year..

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 09:51 PM
hold up the ball and cause some issues in the box. Then you can play Dero down the right and Martina on the left with Santos right in behind them.
TFC's issue is the midfield advancing the ball to the forwards. Without that, there is nothing to hold up. DeRo has not looked good on the wing when TFC has used him there. He is better off as an AM roaming the centre of the pitch. TFC has adequate options on the wing at this point. Addressing other positions is high priority.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:53 PM
TFC's issue is the midfield advancing the ball to the forwards. Without that, there is nothing to hold up. DeRo has not looked good on the wing when TFC has used him there. He is better off as an AM roaming the centre of the pitch. TFC has adequate options on the wing at this point. Addressing other positions is high priority.

I don't know, I think our right wing is in big trouble when Winter is bringing on an Academy player who doesn't even look as good as an Academy player. And yes, we have some gaps to fix. This is just reshuffling with what we have right now.

jazzy
03-19-2011, 09:53 PM
Said it yesterday. Maicon deseves a shot at starting as our striker this season. Unless we can replace him with a long term solution who is obviously better then he is. Personally though, I think he'll have a break out year if he's given a chance.

Bump......met him, a gentleman with a vision,....he's got soccer in his veins and has a deaire to to do well here.....

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:55 PM
Is this normal for a traded player to take so long to show up? The trade happened on the 11th. Most other leagues it's 1-2 days and you're expected to show up. I wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes.

He does need to get a Canadian work permit. He was supposed to be doing that this week in Vancouver (he met the team there on Friday... allegedly).

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 09:55 PM
He does need to get a Canadian work permit. He was supposed to be doing that this week in Vancouver (he met the team there on Friday... allegedly).

So you are saying we are trading him to Vancouver? :)

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:56 PM
TFC's issue is the midfield advancing the ball to the forwards. Without that, there is nothing to hold up. DeRo has not looked good on the wing when TFC has used him there. He is better off as an AM roaming the centre of the pitch. TFC has adequate options on the wing at this point. Addressing other positions is high priority.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am agreed on the priority... but.. Gordon we have. <insert new backline here>... we don't

noochie
03-19-2011, 09:57 PM
So you are saying we are trading him to Vancouver? :)

"Trader Aron"? doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

KGH
03-19-2011, 09:59 PM
I don't know, I think our right wing is in big trouble when Winter is bringing on an Academy player who doesn't even look as good as an Academy player. And yes, we have some gaps to fix. This is just reshuffling with what we have right now.

What about Maicon on the right, Gordon center, Martina/Stevanovic left?

with

Dero, JDG, Zaravise

Just a thought.

ExiledRed
03-19-2011, 09:59 PM
Ok, so if the team was in such a shambles and a serious rebuild from bottom to top was required, and its true that Winter's task is monumental.

Why get Winter in at all? He's unproven, no first team coaching experience, no MLS experience. Surely a better fit for the problem would be somebody...i dont know.....experienced in succesfully coaching first teams, preferably in MLS?

This 'system' he's supposed to be putting in place, and will apparently take time for the team to adjust to.....

How is it any different from Mo starting season 1 with the 'highly experimental' 3-5-2 that was apparently too much for our simple players to handle and therefore a poor tactical decision?

Seriously this is how the whole thing looks to me....

MLSE : "Here Jurgen, here's a large bag of money, tell us what to do!"

JK : "Why thankyou, tell you what....go talk to the dutch guys just a block down from you...you know dutch guys...johan cruyff...total football......would you like a receipt?"

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 09:59 PM
I don't know, I think our right wing is in big trouble when Winter is bringing on an Academy player who doesn't even look as good as an Academy player. And yes, we have some gaps to fix. This is just reshuffling with what we have right now.
I think under performance in key areas caused a formation shift. It's important to address the disease, not treat the symptoms.

BayernTFC
03-19-2011, 10:01 PM
Why get Winter in at all? He's unproven, no first team coaching experience, no MLS experience. Surely a better fit for the problem would be somebody...i dont know.....experienced in succesfully coaching first teams, preferably in MLS?
Too late. He's already here.

Darlofletch
03-19-2011, 10:02 PM
de ros' twitter account...



8,000th goal in MLS HISTORY! Thanks to all the players/staff and fans for helping me achieve that goal...


yay, it's all good. de ro scored tonight, that's the main thing.

from what I've heard , de ro doesn't write his own twitter acccount, so it would be wrong to criticise, but as the captain of a team that just lost 4-2 to an expansion side, you might want to be a bit more careful with that shit.

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:05 PM
After the first half I felt shame for missing the Leafs playoff push for the rubbish TFC was providing. Can't say i tuned back in to TSN the rest of the night. I liked how Toronto was trying to play, and at times in the first it looked relatively effective. I enjoyed that we weren't wasting possession on goal kicks and I liked the switch over to the left to Martina a lot, he got onto a lot of the balls and beat his man a lot...I thought he looked promising. I found Soolsma very frustrating with some wasteful shots and giving away possession. Hopefully once DeGuzman is back it will help out the middle of our game and with distribution...the back line tho... I really felt that Gargan shied away from clearing the cross on the first goal, he turned his back and let the shot come through. The hole Cann/Harden thing I didn't understand at all. If Cann is good for anything its clearing the ball not really a guy you'd want running the pitch all game. All in all, if your playing attacking football and maintaining possession your going to get scored on the counter...but 4 goals is way too much. The whole idea of the best defense is a good offense really shat the bed tonight.

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:10 PM
de ros' twitter account...



yay, it's all good. de ro scored tonight, that's the main thing.

from what I've heard , de ro doesn't write his own twitter acccount, so it would be wrong to criticise, but as the captain of a team that just lost 4-2 to an expansion side, you might want to be a bit more careful with that shit.
Lol the way it's written it sounds like he thinks he scored all 7, 999 others

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 10:13 PM
Ok, so if the team was in such a shambles and a serious rebuild from bottom to top was required, and its true that Winter's task is monumental.

Why get Winter in at all? He's unproven, no first team coaching experience, no MLS experience. Surely a better fit for the problem would be somebody...i dont know.....experienced in succesfully coaching first teams, preferably in MLS?

This 'system' he's supposed to be putting in place, and will apparently take time for the team to adjust to.....

How is it any different from Mo starting season 1 with the 'highly experimental' 3-5-2 that was apparently too much for our simple players to handle and therefore a poor tactical decision?

Seriously this is how the whole thing looks to me....

MLSE : "Here Jurgen, here's a large bag of money, tell us what to do!"

JK : "Why thankyou, tell you what....go talk to the dutch guys just a block down from you...you know dutch guys...johan cruyff...total football......would you like a receipt?"

Winter actually has some chops at running a successful program. Mo was a successful player, while his managerial career was nothing but a road of absolute ruin.

We tried an experience MLS coach with a decent record, and it was an uneven experience at best. Who else was available that we should have hired, that met all of your criteria?

I was fine with TFC going to Europe, because they needed someone who could imprint an identity on the way our club plays the game. We've had four years of stumbling around in the dark.

At some point you have to take a leap of faith in someone new, instead of just recycling MLS retreads. Winter will have a learning curve for thsi league, but his resume gives me hope that we will be better off once he figures it out. Consider that our "investment" in him.

- Scott

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:17 PM
^ Hence the whole purpose of Mariner, to help transition the process. I think one loss isn't quite enough to lynch him just yet. He has a plan and a system that is going from one extreme with Preki last year to the complete polar opposite. It's game 1 in an emotional setting and its March 19, lots of soccer to play.

babone
03-19-2011, 10:22 PM
I enjoyed the game hated the result as per usual the REF's were ugly, any news on when DeGuzman can return

brad
03-19-2011, 10:23 PM
If this happens again next weekend BMO is going to be one ugly place.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 10:23 PM
I mean, it's still possible Winter will fall flat on his face, and the search will eventually be on again - I certainly recognize that is possible. And it doesn't change the fact that the team didn't play well tonight.

However, I do think Winter is certainly qualified for the job. I just think he needs more time to put his own stamp on the team, before we can declare his vision a failure. Most of the guys who let us down today, were Preki and Mo guys.

- Scott

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:28 PM
On a completely unrelated note...does anyone have a site that streams mls...I'm trying to watch one of the later games but looks like atde's http://88.80.11.29/ doesn't have them. Anyone have another link?

TFC Cityboy
03-19-2011, 10:29 PM
ffs, people.Yes we defended like schoolboys and had zero bite in midfield, but Winter is still building this thing from the disaster that Mo and Preki left behind.

We looked good in possession in the first half, but ‎4 3 3 only works if you have a midfield ballwinner and if the 2 wingers drop back to.a 4 5 1 when we don't have the ball. There was no ballwinner in midfield which led to wave upon wave of pressure.

From Vancouver's 2nd goal to the 80th minute we were second to every ball and the strikers were isolated. I don't understand why Cann was played at fullback. The entire back 4 were naive at best, but there was no-one shielding them in midfield.

No need to panic yet, folks. Give it some time- there will be more players coming in for sure and I saw plenty of positives in the way we moved the ball upfront in the first half.

Hamilton_Red
03-19-2011, 10:31 PM
:picard:

Ok for the record... I'm happy with the signing of Aron Winter. Given time and resources he could work out to be a positive. I do hope he is not wedded to the 4-3-3 system - IMO the best coaches adapt to the situation are adjust the line-up and system to win. The thing that scares the crap out of me is that he hasn't been given the resources. The only players that looked good tonight were Dero - Santos - Frei they were all here last year. Martina looks a little bit promising. But overall the new players to the team look no better & in some cases worse than the ones we had last year.

The worst three were Soolsma, Harden, and Petersen. Zavarise should have had a one on one with the goalie but was slow/bottled out - but he may have been carrying a knock from that earlier tackle - so we'll reserve judgement. The lack of new exciting talent is the most disturbing element of today's game? Vancouver had Chiumento, Hassli, Demerit, and Dunfield who all looked like good & influential players.

To be fair though - Vancouver should of had at least 6 goals. We are going to be playing far stronger teams than that this season..it could get a lot worse. Vancouver look far likelier to be the first Canadian team to make the play-offs. Montreal looks likely to be the second - unless we can find an owner that values winning.

Steve

Auzzy
03-19-2011, 10:32 PM
de ros' twitter account...



yay, it's all good. de ro scored tonight, that's the main thing.

from what I've heard , de ro doesn't write his own twitter acccount, so it would be wrong to criticise, but as the captain of a team that just lost 4-2 to an expansion side, you might want to be a bit more careful with that shit.

Please listen to DeRo's post-game interview on the TFC website, where a journalist ask him about it. DeRo didn't know it was the 8,000th goal, he did not make a big deal about it, he said sure that's nice but sad that it happened in a loss, that would be more important for him.

I haven't been happy with DeRo lately, but this is really not a good reason to dump on him, based on what someone posted to his Twitter/Facebook account.

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:33 PM
Well...isn't the teachers pension portion of MLSE up for sale...if everybody chips in a few bucks....maybe we could have a real say :D
Works for the Packers

:picard:

Ok for the record... I'm happy with the signing of Aron Winter. Given time and resources he could work out to be a positive. I do hope he is not wedded to the 4-3-3 system - IMO the best coaches adapt to the situation are adjust the line-up and system to win. The thing that scares the crap out of me is that he hasn't been given the resources. The only players that looked good tonight were Dero - Santos - Frei they were all here last year. Martina looks a little bit promising. But overall the new players to the team look no better & in some cases worse than the ones we had last year.

The worst three were Soolsma, Harden, and Petersen. Zavarise should have had a one on one with the goalie but was slow/bottled out - but he may have been carrying a knock from that earlier tackle - so we'll reserve judgement. The lack of new exciting talent is the most disturbing element of today's game? Vancouver had Chiumento, Hassli, Demerit, and Dunfield who all looked like good & influential players.

To be fair though - Vancouver should of had at least 6 goals. We are going to be playing far stronger teams than that this season..it could get a lot worse. Vancouver look far likelier to be the first Canadian team to make the play-offs. Montreal looks likely to be the second - unless we can find an owner that values winning.

Steve

bigtfcfan
03-19-2011, 10:35 PM
Be patient people. Give the players a chance to learn the system and gel. Also give Winter a chance to build. If we look back, most successful teams in the MLS had a coach who had been at the job for a few consecutive years!

Hamilton_Red
03-19-2011, 10:36 PM
ffs, people.Yes we defended like schoolboys and had zero bite in midfield, but Winter is still building this thing from the disaster that Mo and Preki left behind.

We looked good in possession in the first half, but ‎4 3 3 only works if you have a midfield ballwinner and if the 2 wingers drop back to.a 4 5 1 when we don't have the ball. There was no ballwinner in midfield which led to wave upon wave of pressure.


Why do you persist with 4-3-3 if you don't have the players for the system? Was there a single new player on the team today that was better than the players we had last year - I couldn't see it? There was no "total football" today - we were thrashed by an expansion team that has never played at this level before.

Pachuco
03-19-2011, 10:36 PM
ffs, people.Yes we defended like schoolboys and had zero bite in midfield, but Winter is still building this thing from the disaster that Mo and Preki left behind.

We looked good in possession in the first half, but ‎4 3 3 only works if you have a midfield ballwinner and if the 2 wingers drop back to.a 4 5 1 when we don't have the ball. There was no ballwinner in midfield which led to wave upon wave of pressure.

From Vancouver's 2nd goal to the 80th minute we were second to every ball and the strikers were isolated. I don't understand why Cann was played at fullback. The entire back 4 were naive at best, but there was no-one shielding them in midfield.

No need to panic yet, folks. Give it some time- there will be more players coming in for sure and I saw plenty of positives in the way we moved the ball upfront in the first half.

I get what you say, but I don't understand why you don't get why some people are upset. Even if you believe a 5th year rebuilding team is going the same growing pains as a first year expansion team in their first game ever. Even if you believe that. THe fact of the matter is we got spanked by that team. So as it stands now, one looks better in the building already then the other does. That expansion side that spanked us today will also get reinforcements and will also get better. There is no excuse, none whatsover for Vancouver to be better then us come the end of the year.

billyfly
03-19-2011, 10:36 PM
Who was the TSN hottie btw?

Alonso
03-19-2011, 10:38 PM
On a completely unrelated note...does anyone have a site that streams mls...I'm trying to watch one of the later games but looks like atde's http://88.80.11.29/ doesn't have them. Anyone have another link?


This is a great site that someone here pointed out to me the other day: http://livetv.ru/en/eventinfo/69585_ufc_128_preliminaries/

Im watching the UFC fight and they have all the mls games as well I think....

2mil4dero+santo
03-19-2011, 10:39 PM
4 me biggest problem is playing harden in cb and Cann LB and who's to blame for that? sorry guys not Dero. Hopefully we don't see many more of these bizarre decisions from Winter in the upcoming weeks, and it was just down to the bc hydro someone slipped him...

TFC14
03-19-2011, 10:42 PM
This is a great site that someone here pointed out to me the other day: http://livetv.ru/en/eventinfo/69585_ufc_128_preliminaries/

Im watching the UFC fight and they have all the mls games as well I think....
Beauty. Thank you sir!

2mil4dero+santo
03-19-2011, 10:43 PM
I get what you say, but I don't understand why you don't get why some people are upset. Even if you believe a 5th year rebuilding team is going the same growing pains as a first year expansion team in their first game ever. Even if you believe that. THe fact of the matter is we got spanked by that team. So as it stands now, one looks better in the building already then the other does. That expansion side that spanked us today will also get reinforcements and will also get better. There is no excuse, none whatsover for Vancouver to be better then us come the end of the year.

vancouver will be better until we have mgmt that cares about winning, not selling $15 beers and pissing off our best players.
Also they have a coach who understands that if you have a good CB it's probably a good idea to play him as u know... a CB - just sayin'

TFC Cityboy
03-19-2011, 10:43 PM
Why do you persist with 4-3-3 if you don't have the players for the system? Was there a single new player on the team today that was better than the players we had last year - I couldn't see it? There was no "total football" today - we were thrashed by an expansion team that has never played at this level before.
You try the system and if it fails after a few games you switch it up, yes.
Better players than last year? I liked what I saw of Martina, but aside from that no-one stood out. But judging a team on one game is like making an assessment of a match after the opening 3 minutes.

Remember, this was a huge deal to Vancouver. Opening match and vs TFC. We won't encounter that passion every week and it carried them on for the full 90 minutes.

This may not be a popular statement for those on here who want to burn BMO Field down but we need to take a collective deep breath and give this a chance, folks.

Shakes McQueen
03-19-2011, 10:46 PM
I get what you say, but I don't understand why you don't get why some people are upset. Even if you believe a 5th year rebuilding team is going the same growing pains as a first year expansion team in their first game ever. Even if you believe that. THe fact of the matter is we got spanked by that team. So as it stands now, one looks better in the building already then the other does. That expansion side that spanked us today will also get reinforcements and will also get better. There is no excuse, none whatsover for Vancouver to be better then us come the end of the year.

I actually agree with you, but the blame for this situation you describe lies with ownership and the previous management regime, not Aron Winter (not saying you disagree).

I think the anger and impatience in the fanbase is completely warranted, and I share in some of it. At the same time, I'm trying not to put that on Winter yet. He was brought into a program with no real plan or coherent roster, a bevy of players who are actively unhappy with the organization, and some bad contracts, and asked to fix it. He was also brought into a situation where the relationship between the club and it's fans couldn't be more toxic.

Losing to Vancouver was embarrassing - but it's more embarrassing and angering because of the history of our team, and everything that has lead up to this point, not just the loss itself.

All I've been trying to say, is that Winter deserves a bit of slack to sort this out. He hasn't been handed a blank canvas. Today was game one.

- Scott

2mil4dero+santo
03-19-2011, 10:46 PM
You try the system and if it fails after a few games you switch it up, yes.
Better players than last year? I liked what I saw of Martina, but aside from that no-one stood out. But judging a team on one game is like making an assessment of a match after the opening 3 minutes.

Remember, this was a huge deal to Vancouver. Opening match and vs TFC. We won't encounter that passion every week and it carried them on for the full 90 minutes.

This may not be a popular statement for those on here who want to burn BMO Field down but we need to take a collective deep breath and give this a chance, folks.
I'll give it a chance but if Winter has any more brain farts with his choice of defense I will not be defending him any more.

TFC Cityboy
03-19-2011, 10:47 PM
I get what you say, but I don't understand why you don't get why some people are upset. Even if you believe a 5th year rebuilding team is going the same growing pains as a first year expansion team in their first game ever. Even if you believe that. THe fact of the matter is we got spanked by that team. So as it stands now, one looks better in the building already then the other does. That expansion side that spanked us today will also get reinforcements and will also get better. There is no excuse, none whatsover for Vancouver to be better then us come the end of the year.

Hey, I'm upset too, but I feel that many on here are too quick to pull the trigger. Give it a few weeks and if we're getting whooped every week then by all means start to worry.

Vancouver coming into MLS is similar to that of Seattle...yes an expansion team but not coming in starting from scratch as we did - I was at the Duke when we had Mo and Jim and no team name.

Today is not the time to press the panic button.
:)

Hamilton_Red
03-19-2011, 10:48 PM
Be patient people. Give the players a chance to learn the system and gel.

This drives me crazy. What system in soccer has the centreback pass the ball gently to the other team's striker and let's him run past un-opposed to have strike on goal (Harris should have scored). You can't coach that stuff..seriously what do you actually do... " Eh Harden... I'd like to give you a total football tip... in Holland we don't pass the ball to the other team's striker when we are the last man back - then watch him run past to have shot on our goalie."

The team will never gel if they keep getting as easily as they were tonight.

TFC Cityboy
03-19-2011, 10:48 PM
I actually agree with you, but the blame for this situation you describe lies with ownership and the previous management regime, not Aron Winter (not saying you disagree).

I think the anger and impatience in the fanbase is completely warranted, and I share in some of it. At the same time, I'm trying not to put that on Winter yet. He was brought into a program with no real plan or coherent roster, a bevy of players who are actively unhappy with the organization, and some bad contracts, and asked to fix it. He was also brought into a situation where the relationship between the club and it's fans couldn't be more toxic.

Losing to Vancouver was embarrassing - but it's more embarrassing and angering because of the history of our team, and everything that has lead up to this point, not just the loss itself.

All I've been trying to say, is that Winter deserves a bit of slack to sort this out. He hasn't been handed a blank canvas. Today was game one.

- Scott

excellent post. Agree 100%