POST GAME RANT: Whitecaps VS TFC

[billyfly]

Sorry Billyfly, but thats a ridiculous statement..

You go anywhere in the world where they play sports... if the person does not have any personal experience with the city they will judge it based on its sports teams.

In the US - raptors, or Blue Jays - I go many places where people will say .. Ahh Toronto.. well you had a couple of wonder years in 92-93 with the Jays...

They know NOTHING about the city almost 20 years later.. but they remember those world series.

PLEASE tell me ANYTHING else about Manchester besides their Football clubs????? Its a hole... not a centre for anything else.. but you said that name.. and anyone almost world wide knows about that City.

I think Roogsy clarified my post.

I have long been in argument with others on this board and in this city that do not bleed Toronto as I do. I won;t hi-jack this thread though.

[maninb]

What Billy is pointing to is the curse of Toronto where residents of this city itself are fans of teams from other cities.

In NY, you are a Yankees fan or a Mets fan...you are not a Cubs fan.

In Manchester, you are a United fan or a City fan. You are not a Liverpool fan.

Of course these are generalities. But pretty consistent generalities. And this happens because in most cities, fans feel connected to their teams as representatives of their cities.

However, in Toronto you have a great portion of the city as fans of "other" teams. There is little "Toronto pride". And that is sad. And even more sad, that indifference has transferred over into our sports clubs.


The VAST majority of ManU fans come from outside Manchester and only support them because they have been good for the past 12 years or so...If Man City had become the dynasty, they'd be Man City fans...

[billyfly]

^Oh oh...here we go....

Now this will definitely get hi-jacked. LOL....

[Beach_Red]

Winter came in with three months, many players under contract already and a job to rebuild an entire soccer culture.



Okay, this is true and it should set up some guidelines. This puts TFC in the same position as every other team in the league, rebuilding as they go (even Vancouver and Portland started the season with a lot of roster in place from the USL).

So, how many players are under contract for this season? How much cap space is available? How much improvement can we expect this year?

[Roogsy]

By the way...we keep talking about Winter and his roster moves/decisions. Where is Mariner in all this?

Boy...Cochrane must be thanking his lucky stars he did not get the job.

[denime]

What isn't?

Mo came in with nearly a full year to prep the first team, to hire the first coaches and to prep for the entry draft.

Winter came in with three months, many players under contract already and a job to rebuild an entire soccer culture.

Mo had no consistency in tactical approach.

Winter's been completely consistent, for weeks (and again, if you don't like that approach, that's a different argument, isn't it.)

Mo didn't start with his "five year plan" plan bullshit, he fell back on that when everything went to shit. He actually said we'd be competitive in year one.

Winter has gone to lengths in just about every interview to explain that we WON'T be immediately competitive.

And that's just immediately obvious ones.

Comparing two situations five years apart is not usually going to logically lead to determination of "sameness". Different people, different tactics, different league rules, different ...just about everything except the city and the result.

But just because it's the same city and, after one league game, the results are the same does not, in any way, demonstrate the same process at work. That's not a cause-and-effect relationship, it's "post hoc fallacy", the belief that one thing leads to another because of casual relatioships.


Please stop making sense it might get you in trouble. :D

[Whoop]

Winter is the coach, he is the face.

But maybe as some speculated, maybe Mariner is the "fallback" guy if Winter fails.

That's what I found odd with this whole structure.

I mean who is ultimately responsible for finding the players, Winter or Mariner?

I read somewhere Mariner himself says something like "if Aaron tells me we need a RB, I go out and try to find one."

Does Winter have any say who they bring in?

It seems like a convoluted set-up.

[denime]

By the way...we keep talking about Winter and his roster moves/decisions. Where is Mariner in all this?

Boy...Cochrane must be thanking his lucky stars he did not get the job.

We were taking about Winter first 10-15 pages and since than we are back bitching against ML$E and TFC FO. ;)

It s a good question,where is Mariner in all of this.Isn't he the one responsible for players development,scouting etc?

[Beach_Red]

Winter is the coach, he is the face.

But maybe as some speculated, maybe Mariner is the "fallback" guy if Winter fails.

That's what I found odd with this whole structure.

I mean who is ultimately responsible for finding the players, Winter or Mariner?

I read somewhere Mariner himself says something like "if Aaron tells me we need a RB, I go out and try to find one."

Does Winter have any say who they bring in?

It seems like a convoluted set-up.

Didn't Mariner's quote say he goes out and finds "some" for Winter to consider?

[J .]

Mo definitely had a plan and it was to play attacking football. People are crazy or ignoring everything he said he wanted to do. The fact is when they fired Mo and Preki they should have had a successor in mind, not bring someone in in January. MLSEs fault.

Winter is trying to reinvent the wheel in North America. Doesn't anyone remember how Carver was trying to instill a similar style?

We have had attempted this style for now 4/5 years. Technical, passing football. The only difference is the flavour of it, before it was run by British coaches and now a Dutchman.

The fact is we havent brought in the players who can play that style. You simply cannot expect your central defenders to play that way and not get burned. We have watched that happen 3/4 years going onto 4/5. Its as though every year we get a new coach, who tries to do the same things, says its going to take time, but there is no improvement over last year and they get fired.

In MLS you do not need to rebuild like in other North American sports leagues and its ridiculous for them to feed that line to us.

If Winter cant bring in people who can play that style and be competitive, (giving up four goals is not competitive) then he was the wrong choice 100%. It is too early to tell, but three months in nothing indicates he was the right choice and I sincerely hope he improves his tactical acumen to fit the players he has and brings in players who fit within his preferred tactical concepts.

Or he will be Carver, Cummins, Dasovic and MoJo 2.0.

[mastermixer]

I usually enjoy these TFC group therapy threads but this one is all over the place. It started with tactics, then to DeRo then to coaching and of course where there is losing there is MLSE and even MoJo. I need a Tylenol.

#LOSING

[2mil4dero+santo]

I usually enjoy these TFC group therapy threads but this one is all over the place. It started with tactics, then to DeRo then to coaching and of course where there is losing there is MLSE and even MoJo. I need a Tylenol.

#LOSING

I believe the title of thread is post game RANT, so anyone who doesn't want to hear ranting, don't open the thread lol...

[tfcleeds]

maybe we should all pitch in and buy a few copies of FM2011 for TFC management.. they arnt doing much else, maybe they can learn a thing or two... ;)

btw.. since we are talking long suffering.. as a Forest fan, I am saying that we are making the playoffs this year... and Blackpool is not there to screw us out of the Premiership! :P

No, but we'll be there though. ;)

April 2nd - huge game.

[pekduck]

I believe the title of thread is post game RANT, so anyone who doesn't want to hear ranting, don't open the thread lol...

lol i knew it was an user error caused all of these great debate..

[Pookie]

What isn't?

Mo came in with nearly a full year to prep the first team, to hire the first coaches and to prep for the entry draft.

Winter came in with three months, many players under contract already and a job to rebuild an entire soccer culture.

Mo had no consistency in tactical approach.

Winter's been completely consistent, for weeks (and again, if you don't like that approach, that's a different argument, isn't it.)

Mo didn't start with his "five year plan" plan bullshit, he fell back on that when everything went to shit. He actually said we'd be competitive in year one.

Winter has gone to lengths in just about every interview to explain that we WON'T be immediately competitive.

And that's just immediately obvious ones.

Comparing two situations five years apart is not usually going to logically lead to determination of "sameness". Different people, different tactics, different league rules, different ...just about everything except the city and the result.

But just because it's the same city and, after one league game, the results are the same does not, in any way, demonstrate the same process at work. That's not a cause-and-effect relationship, it's "post hoc fallacy", the belief that one thing leads to another because of casual relatioships.

Amen

[noochie]

Last!

(what, no?)

[Pookie]

I only used 3/4 of the season as a guideline. Not saying it's set in stone.

Hell maybe after 10 games it might be exposed as a disaster.

All I'm saying is that a) we shouldn't be calling for wholesale changes after one game but b) at the same time we shouldn't be saying "yeah do whatever you want, we'll check back in 2 years."

There has to be some marked improvement.

Ideally you want stability - and I'm a big proponent of stability - that means at least give him a year and a half, but if things end up being worse than before, do you just let it crumble around you?

So, the big question in your post is how do you define marked improvement?

If the goal is to change the culture and system in which the team operates, is success or failure in the immediate standings the only measure?

Is it in building a scouting staff? If so, how do you measure success? Progress of the Academy? If so, how do you measure that? Success in ridding the team of "burdensome" contracts? I've got an idea or two that would equate to success here. Or some other variable?

Regardless, if success is going to be measured by the standings 3/4 of the way (or less) through the season, we might as well start looking for the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement.

We will never progress.

[Beach_Red]

Regardless, if success is going to be measured by the standings 3/4 of the way (or less) through the season, we might as well start looking for the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement to the replacement.

We will never progress.


But we know there will be a replacement for the replacement for the replacement. Coaches are hired to be fired. Sure, we shouldn't have a new one every year, but we know if Winter is really successful here he's likely going to return to Europe after his three years and if he isn't successful he's likely going to be fired - either way TFC will soon need a replacement. And so on.

So the real question isn't how do we measure the progress, but who is measuring the progress and what criteria are they using.

[mastermixer]

I believe the title of thread is post game RANT, so anyone who doesn't want to hear ranting, don't open the thread lol...

I love the ranting thread... it's actually my therapy after a shitty game like on Saturday, but usually there is a specific reason. But this season it seems there are many more reasons to be P.O.'d

Oh well... Carlsberg will be making a fortune off me this weekend :drinking:

[Pookie]

But we know there will be a replacement for the replacement for the replacement. Coaches are hired to be fired. Sure, we shouldn't have a new one every year, but we know if Winter is really successful here he's likely going to return to Europe after his three years and if he isn't successful he's likely going to be fired - either way TFC will soon need a replacement. And so on.

So the real question isn't how do we measure the progress, but who is measuring the progress and what criteria are they using.

But I'm not sure we know that Winter is using this as a way to get a job in Europe. It would be reasonable yes. But he could also have an idea like Klinsmann did in establishing a base in North America. He's built a business on his reputation and perhaps Winter has a similar long term plan.

As for who is measuring the progress, that's the danger... no arguments there. The idea that Anselmi can oversee soccer related matters when he (and Peddie) removed themselves from the Leafs and Raptor's org chart is something I've been frustrated with for years.

They are reactionary and if they are going to react to the "insightful" opinions offered by some fans here... well, I don't see a reason to hold out hope.

The thing that makes me optimistic that the squeaky and irrational wheel won't get the grease is that Anselmi hired a consultant who hired these guys. Going back on their recommendations after just a year would be a hard move to make from a political perspective. If he did it, what would he do, get a different consultant? Try to convince the fans that he now has the answer that JK couldn't produce? Either route doesn't work out so well for him.

I feel like the best thing to do is see this through. In doing so, is there really a downside? It's not like we have a baseline number of playoff games we've ever qualified for that we can compare to.

[dupont]

I have long been in argument with others on this board and in this city that do not bleed Toronto as I do. I won;t hi-jack this thread though.

I'm with you. I am for Toronto THE CITY first... and the sports teams a distant second. The only reason I like the sports teams is because I love this city so much.

A lot of people are proud of this city though. Everyone I know loves it. They aren't sports fans though so maybe that helps their positive opinion! :D

[BayernTFC]

after we lost a head coach halfway through the last season.

What took so fucking long, and if they didnt have a replacement in mind, why the fuck did they just clean house before the end of the season anyway?
This is a very good question. I think the coaching change with one third of the season left to play was a panic move driven by fear of fan support bleeding away for the duration of the season and fear of a slump in next year's season ticket sales. I think that TFC's league performance was already on the downswing and we weren't scoring goals either. One of the downsides to not giving Preki until the end of the season before replacing him is that it sends a signal to prospective new applicants about the people who are their potential new employers. If that wasn't taken into account when the decision to change management mid stream was formulated, then I don't know what to say. Management doesn't have an excuse for not filling the coaching position sooner imho. If the plan was to continue with business as usual and use the same methodology that Preki was applying, then it would have been more honest to just keep Preki.

[boban]

I was at a meet and greet with Brian Burke a few weeks back and I was actually surprised at his attitude about the organization. He basically said he has to first recognize that this is entertainment for the fans and everything they do is based on that ideal (including the style of hockey). It almost sounded like winning the Stanley Cup comes second to entertaining the fans. Odd for someone in his position since I would assume entertaining the fans is down on his list and winning the Cup at the top. I will just say that I didn't come out of the event feeling like the Leafs are really that dedicated to winning the Stanley Cup. More like "it would be nice".
Hello. You are now seeing the light of day.

[BayernTFC]

Mo definitely had a plan and it was to play attacking football. People are crazy or ignoring everything he said he wanted to do. The fact is when they fired Mo and Preki they should have had a successor in mind, not bring someone in in January. MLSEs fault.

Winter is trying to reinvent the wheel in North America. Doesn't anyone remember how Carver was trying to instill a similar style?

We have had attempted this style for now 4/5 years. Technical, passing football. The only difference is the flavour of it, before it was run by British coaches and now a Dutchman.

The fact is we havent brought in the players who can play that style. You simply cannot expect your central defenders to play that way and not get burned. We have watched that happen 3/4 years going onto 4/5. Its as though every year we get a new coach, who tries to do the same things, says its going to take time, but there is no improvement over last year and they get fired.

In MLS you do not need to rebuild like in other North American sports leagues and its ridiculous for them to feed that line to us.

If Winter cant bring in people who can play that style and be competitive, (giving up four goals is not competitive) then he was the wrong choice 100%. It is too early to tell, but three months in nothing indicates he was the right choice and I sincerely hope he improves his tactical acumen to fit the players he has and brings in players who fit within his preferred tactical concepts.

Or he will be Carver, Cummins, Dasovic and MoJo 2.0.
I couldn't agree more with these sentiments. Unfortunately, I'm still looking for signs that genuine change is occurring.

[rocker]

We have had attempted this style for now 4/5 years. Technical, passing football. The only difference is the flavour of it, before it was run by British coaches and now a Dutchman.

That's like saying TFC attempted to play football but the only difference is the flavour of it. I don't remember any coach attempting technical, passing football. I do remember a lot of long ball. Then we had Preki and his teams weren't really about technical ability or passing.

The way Winter is having this team play is drastically different than the way Mo/Carver/Cummins/Preki had them play.

Whatever style was attempted, the problem was not the style but the ability to judge talent and the ability to manage a cap system.

You can probably play any system you want in MLS. But if you continually overpay players or cannot evaluate talent, then you're fucked.

[billyfly]

Got chirped today from people in the Vancouver office as I expected.

[boban]

MLSE initially projected average attendance figures of 14,000, and invested accordingly in the first year. Once interest in the club began to swell, MLSE has incrementally increased expenditures in the infrastructure of the organization since then.

At this point, the only further demands we can justify in terms of spending is for the new regime to sign 1-2 more DP's, and by all accounts, they have the green light to sign at least 1 more.
Why do you kid yourself with all that MLSE bullshit.
Look up the attendance figures for the 12 teams in the MLS at the current time while MLSE were looking to get in (2003, 2004, 2005 basically)
Pretty much all of them were over 12,000 at the bottom end for a given year, but were doing more than 14,000 on average.
Factor in also the research MLSE did with Rogers and Bell (soccer channel subscriptions), the biggest WC parties this city has bigger than anywhere in NA. MLSE knew damn straight there were soccer fans here. 14,000 was their bottom end based on OTHER cities. They knew they would do more. They preached and sold the 14,000 because they didn't want to spend on the stadium. They pulled a fast one on so many levels. As an aside - politicians have to be blamed for this though.
The interest in the club was there from the beginning. If anything there is less interest in it - evidence on how hard it is to sell tickets last year and this.

[boban]

Steelers have it right, TFC represent this city, and when they lose they embarass us. When they win nothing and underachieve it says shit about this city.

This is why despite being a MIlanista, I liked Inter winning, like it or not they represented Milano when they play. TFC represents the city that I love, in a sport that I love, and so far they have sucked. BIG TIME.

MLSE don't get this. I am not sure they care.

But nobody holds them accountable to this principle. Nobody in the media does. Once a 2 game wining streak is in play everything is forgotten.
I would love to see media demand new ownership on all the sports properties. Like they do in Europe: You don't win, then fuck off and sell csz we don't want you.
Here we have a love fest, go for drinks with the owners/upper mangmnt.
A franchise with 13 championships, to be held in such disregard on the playing front, is laughable. But hey, do they ever hodl onto, and play that 67 Cup for all its worth. Something they had NOTHING to do with!!!

[ManUtd4ever]

Let's be reasonable in our assessment of Winter's ability to identify players with the appropriate skill set to play within his desired system. For the most part, the players that struggled on Saturday were acquired by the previous regime.

Would it not be more accurate to judge the individual performances of the trialists that were signed in the off season? Martina, Zavarise, and Yourassowsky played well. Soolsma was ineffective. Based on one game, 3 out of 4 of Winter's players seem very capable of contributing within his system. The jury is still out on Bouchiba.

Remember, players like Gargan, Harden, Peterson, and Sturgis wouldn't likely be on the current roster if they weren't on guaranteed contracts.

I disagree with the notion that Winter should adapt his tactical approach simply because a few weak links from the previous regime are incapable of playing within the system. Our best incumbent players such as DeRo, JDG, Santos, and Nana will thrive in Winter's system.

In the interim, to fill out the weak areas of the roster, I would rather Winter stick to his guns and play the likes of Morgan or Omphroy until better options are available via trade or the transfer market.

[ManUtd4ever]

Why do you kid yourself with all that MLSE bullshit.
Look up the attendance figures for the 12 teams in the MLS at the current time while MLSE were looking to get in (2003, 2004, 2005 basically)
Pretty much all of them were over 12,000 at the bottom end for a given year, but were doing more than 14,000 on average.
Factor in also the research MLSE did with Rogers and Bell (soccer channel subscriptions), the biggest WC parties this city has bigger than anywhere in NA. MLSE knew damn straight there were soccer fans here. 14,000 was their bottom end based on OTHER cities. They knew they would do more. They preached and sold the 14,000 because they didn't want to spend on the stadium. They pulled a fast one on so many levels. As an aside - politicians have to be blamed for this though.
The interest in the club was there from the beginning. If anything there is less interest in it - evidence on how hard it is to sell tickets last year and this.

You have an obvious bias against MLSE and refuse to be objective because of it.

On the contrary, prior to the inception of the franchise in 2006, there were absolutely no guarantees that TFC would thrive in this market. All of the attempts at professional soccer in Toronto since the original NASL folded had crashed and burned, despite the popularity of the World Cup over the same time span.

The off field success of TFC took every knowledgeable sports pundit in this city by surprise, whether you care to admit it or not.

[denime]

Let's be reasonable in our assessment of Winter's ability to identify players with the appropriate skill set to play within his desired system. For the most part, the players that struggled on Saturday were acquired by the previous regime.

Would it not be more accurate to judge the individual perfromances of the trialists that were signed in the off season? Martina, Zavarise, and Yourassowsky played well. Soolsma was ineffective. Based on one game, 3 out of 4 of Winter's players seem very capable of contributing within his system. The jury is still out on Bouchiba.

Remember, players like Gargan, Harden, Peterson, and Sturgis wouldn't likely be on the current roster if they weren't on guaranteed contracts.

I disagree that Winter should adapt his tactical approach simply because a few weak links from the previous regime are incapable of playing within the system. Our best incumbent players such as DeRo, JDG, Santos, and Nana will thrive in Winter's system.

In the interim, to fill out the weak areas of the roster, I would rather Winter stick to his guns and play the likes of Morgan or Omphroy until better options are available via trade or the transfer market.

Well said,and I hope he will.

[Pookie]

Why do you kid yourself with all that MLSE bullshit.
Look up the attendance figures for the 12 teams in the MLS at the current time while MLSE were looking to get in (2003, 2004, 2005 basically)
Pretty much all of them were over 12,000 at the bottom end for a given year, but were doing more than 14,000 on average.

You are both right. City documents show 14,000 was the projection but it was also acknowledged (or sold) to be on the low end.

Regardless, the soccer team was an after-thought not the main idea. The big idea was to get in on the FIFA U20. Secondary to all of that was to gain an ongoing managing interest in a facility that could produce rental income.

A MLS was required to gain those concessions, conceivably because it guaranteed rental dates and could be used as a political reason to spend millions on a stadium whose main purpose was FIFA U20. Much like the way the Pan-Am stadium is supposed to be a CFL venue when all is said and done.

[Pookie]

Let's be reasonable in our assessment of Winter's ability to identify players with the appropriate skill set to play within his desired system. For the most part, the players that struggled on Saturday were acquired by the previous regime.

Would it not be more accurate to judge the individual perfromances of the trialists that were signed in the off season? Martina, Zavarise, and Yourassowsky played well. Soolsma was ineffective. Based on one game, 3 out of 4 of Winter's players seem very capable of contributing within his system. The jury is still out on Bouchiba.

Remember, players like Gargan, Harden, Peterson, and Sturgis wouldn't likely be on the current roster if they weren't on guaranteed contracts.

I disagree that Winter should adapt his tactical approach simply because a few weak links from the previous regime are incapable of playing within the system. Our best incumbent players such as DeRo, JDG, Santos, and Nana will thrive in Winter's system.

In the interim, to fill out the weak areas of the roster, I would rather Winter stick to his guns and play the likes of Morgan or Omphroy until better options are available via trade or the transfer market.

Good post

[jloome]

I only used 3/4 of the season as a guideline. Not saying it's set in stone.

Hell maybe after 10 games it might be exposed as a disaster.

All I'm saying is that a) we shouldn't be calling for wholesale changes after one game but b) at the same time we shouldn't be saying "yeah do whatever you want, we'll check back in 2 years."

There has to be some marked improvement.

Ideally you want stability - and I'm a big proponent of stability - that means at least give him a year and a half, but if things end up being worse than before, do you just let it crumble around you?

Yeah, I think we're basically saying the same thing, just a little differently.

[J .]

That's like saying TFC attempted to play football but the only difference is the flavour of it. I don't remember any coach attempting technical, passing football. I do remember a lot of long ball. Then we had Preki and his teams weren't really about technical ability or passing.

The way Winter is having this team play is drastically different than the way Mo/Carver/Cummins/Preki had them play.

Whatever style was attempted, the problem was not the style but the ability to judge talent and the ability to manage a cap system.

You can probably play any system you want in MLS. But if you continually overpay players or cannot evaluate talent, then you're fucked.

I think you should find interviews on how Carver was trying to prepare the team which was quite similar to how Ive seen interviews regarding Winter in terms of style, so we disagree there.

However, indeed they have not found the right players to fit into the system, so I can agree with that.

[Whoop]

Yeah, I think we're basically saying the same thing, just a little differently.

I'm looking at it from both sides.

The GM of the team I work for just got fired after 8 years mainly because of the results of the last 3 seasons (missed the playoffs in two of the last three years).

On a personal level, over the last 15 years, I've seen all kinds of things in firings, hirings, etc.

As sports fans, while we can be a little over the top, we can usually tell the difference between improvement and non-improvement.

The question is whether as a fan base you choose to be indifferent or make your voices heard.

The day your fanbase shows indifference - and starts staying away - you're in trouble.

Though as management you pray for a fanbase that's indifferent and keeps coming back for more.

[J .]

Let's be reasonable in our assessment of Winter's ability to identify players with the appropriate skill set to play within his desired system. For the most part, the players that struggled on Saturday were acquired by the previous regime.

Would it not be more accurate to judge the individual performances of the trialists that were signed in the off season? Martina, Zavarise, and Yourassowsky played well. Soolsma was ineffective. Based on one game, 3 out of 4 of Winter's players seem very capable of contributing within his system. The jury is still out on Bouchiba.

Remember, players like Gargan, Harden, Peterson, and Sturgis wouldn't likely be on the current roster if they weren't on guaranteed contracts.

I disagree that Winter should adapt his tactical approach simply because a few weak links from the previous regime are incapable of playing within the system. Our best incumbent players such as DeRo, JDG, Santos, and Nana will thrive in Winter's system.

In the interim, to fill out the weak areas of the roster, I would rather Winter stick to his guns and play the likes of Morgan or Omphroy until better options are available via trade or the transfer market.

If you are saying that 3/4 of Winters acquistions were good and four players left over from last season, with JDG out giving us 6/10 out players.

You are saying we are four players away?

I dont really think that adds up to me. We did not look good at all and with 6/10 being good according to your post, I dont think your player assessment is on target either, which then leads to the discussion was it coaches tactics that let the squad down?

Like Ive said for so many years now, there is no point in playing attacking football if you cannot keep the ball out of your own net.

[jloome]

If you are saying that 3/4 of Winters acquistions were good and four players left over from last season, with JDG out giving us 6/10 out players.

You are saying we are four players away?

I dont really think that adds up to me. We did not look good at all and with 6/10 being good according to your post, I dont think your player assessment is on target either, which then leads to the discussion was it coaches tactics that let the squad down?

Like Ive said for so many years now, there is no point in playing attacking football if you cannot keep the ball out of your own net.

I think his assessment is close to the truth for our starting lineup, we are about four players away from it being competitive.

But MLS is a hard league with a ton of injuries, so we need more bench depth too. Arguably, however, that can come from within, from the academy system.

[boban]

You have an obvious bias against MLSE and refuse to be objective because of it.
My 'bias', as you call it, comes from seeing what they produce. They have won nothing. I didn't just wake up 1 morning and decide that I don't like how they do things, amongst othr things.


On the contrary, prior to the inception of the franchise in 2006, there were absolutely no guarantees that TFC would thrive in this market. All of the attempts at professional soccer in Toronto since the original NASL folded had crashed and burned, despite the popularity of the World Cup over the same time span.

The off field success of TFC took every knowledgeable sports pundit in this city by surprise, whether you care to admit it or not.
Oh bullshit. You don't know soccer in this city then.
And what pundits do you speak of? The ones that were raised on hockey and covered it all their lives? Then the editor/procuder taps him on the shoulder and says "hey give me a piece on this MLS coming to the city'? Something they knew nothing about!!!!!!!!

[Whoop]

Football has always been popular in Toronto, but never on a "homefront" basis.

The Blizzard averaged in their best year 15,000 but most years their attendance averaged 8000 to 11000.

I think a lot of people knew that TFC would be successful to an extent, but no one knew to what extent.

To some averaging 10,000 people a game would have been a success.

But to sit and say with 100% certainty that you knew TFC was going to be this successful out of the gate is a bit over the top.

People point to the Blizzard, Metro-Croatia, Toronto City, etc... but it wasn't like these teams were routinely getting 20,000+ people per game.

No one is disputing the popularity of the sport in Toronto, but disputing the popularity of a Toronto football team.

If anything football was bigger in Vancouver on a domestic front than it was in Toronto.

[BayernTFC]

That's like saying TFC attempted to play football but the only difference is the flavour of it. I don't remember any coach attempting technical, passing football. I do remember a lot of long ball. Then we had Preki and his teams weren't really about technical ability or passing.
I thought Preki talked about the need to focus on the basics and better passing. Preki certainly made attempts to change things up. There were some very fluid games including the one against Cruz Azul. However, you can't get blood from a stone. There have been a lot of promises by the many managers that have passed through the organization. I think one quit because he couldn't take the lack of talent and the others tried to adjust based on what they had.

[boban]

Football has always been popular in Toronto, but never on a "homefront" basis.

The Blizzard averaged in their best year 15,000 but most years their attendance averaged 8000 to 11000.

I think a lot of people knew that TFC would be successful to an extent, but no one knew to what extent.

To some averaging 10,000 people a game would have been a success.

But to sit and say with 100% certainty that you knew TFC was going to be this successful out of the gate is a bit over the top.

People point to the Blizzard, Metro-Croatia, Toronto City, etc... but it wasn't like these teams were routinely getting 20,000+ people per game.

No one is disputing the popularity of the sport in Toronto, but disputing the popularity of a Toronto football team.

If anything football was bigger in Vancouver on a domestic front than it was in Toronto.
Who says a bench mark 0f 20,000 is success anyway? Much less in an era when this city was less than half the size it is today!!!.
Look at Impact, or Whitecaps. For the past decade or so they have been only getting 5-6,000, or even less. They pushed through, people caught on and now they have grown exponentially.
In Toronto we had those teams, but we liked to cut them down in these parts, not support and build them up.

[Whoop]

Who says a bench mark 0f 20,000 is success anyway? Much less in an era when this city was less than half the size it is today!!!.
Look at Impact, or Whitecaps. For the past decade or so they have been only getting 5-6,000, or even less. They pushed through, people caught on and now they have grown exponentially.
In Toronto we had those teams, but we liked to cut them down in these parts, not support and build them up.

But back in the NASL days Vancouver was averaging 20000 to 25000/year.

I think the big thing this time around was that MLS was the highest level of football this city would ever see on a regular basis and people latched onto that. As a city, Torontonians love the "big show". Well, this was the closest to the "big show" we would get in regards to football.

But again, to say you knew that TFC would be this successful based on past indicators, is foolhardy.

Yes, we know the sport is/was popular in this city, but not on a domestic/local level. If it was CSL teams would average more people than a high school volleyball game.

[Beach_Red]

But to sit and say with 100% certainty that you knew TFC was going to be this successful out of the gate is a bit over the top.




But then it happened and we can all agree that MLSE was very slow to react to that fact. And when they did react it was to say things like, "We don't need to sign a DP we've sold all the tickets." And then only when there was pressure from the supporters did they free up the money to sign a DP (there's a huge differenec between saying they'll sign one and actually putting up the money) and only when there was pressure from the supporters did they put in grass and only when...

[Whoop]

But then it happened and we can all agree that MLSE was very slow to react to that fact. And when they did react it was to say things like, "We don't need to sign a DP we've sold all the tickets." And then only when there was pressure from the supporters did they free up the money to sign a DP (there's a huge differenec between saying they'll sign one and actually putting up the money) and only when there was pressure from the supporters did they put in grass and only when...

On this fact I can agree with.

But to say you knew that TFC could have averaged 30,000 off the hop when the project was conceived would have been a little presumptuous.

[boban]

But back in the NASL days Vancouver was averaging 20000 to 25000/year.

I think the big thing this time around was that MLS was the highest level of football this city would ever see on a regular basis and people latched onto that. As a city, Torontonians love the "big show". Well, this was the closest to the "big show" we would get in regards to football.

But again, to say you knew that TFC would be this successful based on past indicators, is foolhardy.

Yes, we know the sport is/was popular in this city, but not on a domestic/local level. If it was CSL teams would average more people than a high school volleyball game.
So Man U averages 75,000. Does that mean other teams who don't hit that mark are failures?
Anyhow, my assertions that TFC was going to be a success was just not on past indicators. You are assuming that.
MLSE's own admission : 14,000 we are a success and make money.
They don't go in to make a penny or a dime. They want the buck.

[jloome]

On this fact I can agree with.

But to say you knew that TFC could have averaged 30,000 off the hop when the project was conceived would have been a little presumptuous.

Something like 70% of the teams in England average fewer than 10,000 fans and yet that same percentage makes money. It's the teams with large draws that tend to lose the vast majority of what the leagues as whole lose.

Someone noted here a couple of years ago that, by averaging more than 15,000 per season, MLS was something like the sixth busiest football league in the world.

The 20,000-plus crowds seen here for baseball, basketball and hockey are very rare in every other country, where a plurality of professional attractions requires teams to operate on smaller margins and tighter planning. The Barcas, Madrids and Man Utd's of the world are vastly in the minority.

[boban]

On this fact I can agree with.

But to say you knew that TFC could have averaged 30,000 off the hop when the project was conceived would have been a little presumptuous.
I didn't say anything about 30,000. But I do believe over 14,000 was not presumtptous.
When I spoke with people in my community that a new soccer stadium was going up, each and every one, first thing out of their mouth, should be minimum 30,000, this is to small.

[jloome]

In Toronto we had those teams, but we liked to cut them down in these parts, not support and build them up.

....which is what ManUtd basically just said to you, and you called bullshit. Having the potential and having the success aren't the same thing.

[boban]

....which is what ManUtd basically just said to you, and you called bullshit. Having the potential and having the success aren't the same thing.
Where?

[ExiledRed]

What isn't?

Mo came in with nearly a full year to prep the first team, to hire the first coaches and to prep for the entry draft.

Winter came in with three months, many players under contract already and a job to rebuild an entire soccer culture.

Mo had no consistency in tactical approach.

Winter's been completely consistent, for weeks (and again, if you don't like that approach, that's a different argument, isn't it.)

Mo didn't start with his "five year plan" plan bullshit, he fell back on that when everything went to shit. He actually said we'd be competitive in year one.

Winter has gone to lengths in just about every interview to explain that we WON'T be immediately competitive.

And that's just immediately obvious ones.

Comparing two situations five years apart is not usually going to logically lead to determination of "sameness". Different people, different tactics, different league rules, different ...just about everything except the city and the result.

But just because it's the same city and, after one league game, the results are the same does not, in any way, demonstrate the same process at work. That's not a cause-and-effect relationship, it's "post hoc fallacy", the belief that one thing leads to another because of casual relatioships.

The question wasnt how is the Mo scenario different from the Winter scenario,

it was: how is playing 4-3-3 with the wrong players any worse or different from playing 3-5-2 with the wrong players, and how is Winter's track record superior to Mo's, when he doesnt actually have one?

Of course he's different from Mo and the whole scenario is different, that doesnt mean one is better than the other, if the lack of experience of either coach is showing and they are making similar mistakes, it just amounts to them screwing up the same things, but differently.

[2mil4dero+santo]

801st... tweet that DeRo

[jloome]

The question wasnt how is the Mo scenario different from the Winter scenario,

it was: how is playing 4-3-3 with the wrong players any worse or different from playing 3-5-2 with the wrong players, and how is Winter's track record superior to Mo's, when he doesnt actually have one?

Of course he's different from Mo and the whole scenario is different, that doesnt mean one is better than the other, if the lack of experience of either coach is showing and they are making similar mistakes, it just amounts to them screwing up the same things, but differently.

OK, I can appreciate that. But I can also appreciate that screwing up the same things in different ways a) requires some time, to accurately judge whether Winter IS actually screwing up the same things and b) might require a different response, if the "differents ways" are different enough.

As with Trane, I jumped on the "get rid of Mo" bandwagon early. But there were, to me, quite different circumstances. Until Winter has a chance to shed the problems he's been left with, he can't be accurately assessed. Mo didn't have problems to shed; he WAS the problem.

[jloome]

Where?

Here:

Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1251353#post1251353)
On the contrary, prior to the inception of the franchise in 2006, there were absolutely no guarantees that TFC would thrive in this market. All of the attempts at professional soccer in Toronto since the original NASL folded had crashed and burned, despite the popularity of the World Cup over the same time span.

The off field success of TFC took every knowledgeable sports pundit in this city by surprise, whether you care to admit it or not.
Oh bullshit. You don't know soccer in this city then.

You just said yourself that prior to this one, ever prior effort failed. ManUtd4ever used that as his argument as to why no one had a success guarantee, and you called "bullshit."

[jloome]

I couldn't agree more with these sentiments. Unfortunately, I'm still looking for signs that genuine change is occurring.

You're telling me you genuinely couldn't see any difference between the style and approach of play on Saturday to past years?

That's change. It's not necessarily change for the better, but it's definitely change.

[boban]

Here:

Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1251353#post1251353)
On the contrary, prior to the inception of the franchise in 2006, there were absolutely no guarantees that TFC would thrive in this market. All of the attempts at professional soccer in Toronto since the original NASL folded had crashed and burned, despite the popularity of the World Cup over the same time span.

The off field success of TFC took every knowledgeable sports pundit in this city by surprise, whether you care to admit it or not.
Oh bullshit. You don't know soccer in this city then.

You just said yourself that prior to this one, ever prior effort failed. ManUtd4ever used that as his argument as to why no one had a success guarantee, and you called "bullshit."
No. he said that it always failed. Look again at me quoting him.

[jazzy]

You have a lot of nerve referring to me or anyone else on this site as an idiot for giving Winter and Mariner more than one fucking regular season game before passing judgement. I think it is your stance that is completely idiotic as well as unrealistic.

I don't blame anyone for being frustrated with the futility of this franchise for the past 4 years, but it is absolutely ridiculous to hold the current regime responsible for past failures, let alone be so critical after one regular season game on their watch.

If you've had enough, do yourself a favor and stop supporting the club. But don't you dare insult mine or anyone else's intelligence because we are willing to allow Winter and Mariner the appropriate timeframe to build a sustainable winning franchise.

Take your attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'm sick of all the miserable pricks who make a habit of belittling those of us who are willing to support the club through the growing pains of a proper rebuild under a new management regime.

bump..........it's incredible that this HAS to be said....thanx...and after 1 game, ...I buy tickets, I support my team .....end of!.....noone asked the haters to stay on board.........

[BayernTFC]

You're telling me you genuinely couldn't see any difference between the style and approach of play on Saturday to past years?

That's change. It's not necessarily change for the better, but it's definitely change.
You can read my comments in the game thread for the answer to your question. I was agreeing with the spirit of what was being said by J. TFC have had a series of coaches who've attempted to implement a system to raise the level of play while not having the players capable of delivering the goods. There's more to the game of football than the formation used on the pitch. There's more happening around a football organization than what transpires at a stadium on one day. I still have yet to see TFC implement Winter's "system" for a complete game. What I am presently hearing and seeing from TFC gives me a strange deja vu feeling. I'm content to sit back and give things some time for now.

[DichioTFC]

You have a lot of nerve referring to me or anyone else on this site as an idiot for giving Winter and Mariner more than one fucking regular season game before passing judgement. I think it is your stance that is completely idiotic as well as unrealistic.

I don't blame anyone for being frustrated with the futility of this franchise for the past 4 years, but it is absolutely ridiculous to hold the current regime responsible for past failures, let alone be so critical after one regular season game on their watch.

If you've had enough, do yourself a favor and stop supporting the club. But don't you dare insult mine or anyone else's intelligence because we are willing to allow Winter and Mariner the appropriate timeframe to build a sustainable winning franchise.

Take your attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'm sick of all the miserable pricks who make a habit of belittling those of us who are willing to support the club through the growing pains of a proper rebuild under a new management regime.

LOL love it!

This isn't the NFL where one game determines an entire season. We're going to have ups and downs, but faith is still a requirement for any fan.

I'd rather get it right and have a dynasty (pipe dream, I know) then be a perennially floundering in the first-round of the playoffs

[jloome]

No. he said that it always failed. Look again at me quoting him.

No, he said that it always failed and you called bullshit. You then said

"
In Toronto we had those teams, but we liked to cut them down in these parts, not support and build them up."

So how when he says they'd failed, and therefore expectations should be low, was it different from YOU saying they'd failed?

His underlying premise was that expectations were low because of prior failures. You've admitted here that there were prior failures.

So you've confirmed his underlying premise. What then makes you disagree with his proposed consequence?

[boban]

No, he said that it always failed and you called bullshit. You then said

""

So how when he says they'd failed, and therefore expectations should be low, was it different from YOU saying they'd failed?

His underlying premise was that expectations were low because of prior failures. You've admitted here that there were prior failures.

So you've confirmed his underlying premise. What then makes you disagree with his proposed consequence?
Maybe I should of clarified the context and provided more detail before you put your revisionist spin on things.
The teams were successful from an attendance standpoint - yes they could grow. What made them fail was no so much the particular team city, but more the league and other teams. You can't play against yourself. So historically, pundits tell of failure of the game in this city when its not really the case.

[ExiledRed]

I like Whoopee's assessment. I agree that stability is required, and I also believe that the current team needs to be given the time to adapt and overcome.

There has to be an improvement on Preki's record though, or its the disaster Whoopee talks about, and lets be clear about this.

MLS - 7-14-7
NCC - Winners
CL - qualification to group stages

[TFC Cityboy]

Let's be reasonable in our assessment of Winter's ability to identify players with the appropriate skill set to play within his desired system. For the most part, the players that struggled on Saturday were acquired by the previous regime.

Would it not be more accurate to judge the individual performances of the trialists that were signed in the off season? Martina, Zavarise, and Yourassowsky played well. Soolsma was ineffective. Based on one game, 3 out of 4 of Winter's players seem very capable of contributing within his system. The jury is still out on Bouchiba.

Remember, players like Gargan, Harden, Peterson, and Sturgis wouldn't likely be on the current roster if they weren't on guaranteed contracts.

I disagree that Winter should adapt his tactical approach simply because a few weak links from the previous regime are incapable of playing within the system. Our best incumbent players such as DeRo, JDG, Santos, and Nana will thrive in Winter's system.

In the interim, to fill out the weak areas of the roster, I would rather Winter stick to his guns and play the likes of Morgan or Omphroy until better options are available via trade or the transfer market.

Mate, your posts in this thread have been bang on. Every single comment you've made I agree with 100%- rational, knowledgable and well written throughout.
As a lifelong City fan, this has been a tough comment to write!

cheers!

[backbeat]

good god people - this season is TOTALLY different than seasons past.

they are implementing a system that will be taught from age 7 up through the academies, over time - the whole philosophical approach is different and imo for the better - whether you agree with the 4-3-3 or not. what is being developed is for the long-term....on going development....not just throwing money at changing a team from bottom to near top of the table one or 2 seasons but systematically revamping the whole approach.

i can wait for a season or 2 to get it put in place

it is worth it imo

well worth it

it is a TOTALLY different approach towards long term local player development rather than purchasing a team like the Red Bulls. you may want that, i don't....

that was what Kiinsmann was talking about - finding a Toronto style/system and implementing it throughout the academies up to the 1st team.

IT WILL TAKE TIME and it is worth it to wait

rather than after a preseason and game or 2 or 3 or 10 starting all over again - that gets you nowhere other than developing a reputation of constant turnover.

I really hope MLSE doesn't cave to the knee jerk reaction and stays the course.....they blew it 1st time around but listened to the uproar and brought in Klinsmann and got it right - now give it the time it is due...PLEASE!!!

[boban]

As a lifelong City fan, this has been a tough email to write!
It's not an email though ;)

[TFC Cityboy]

It's not an email though ;)
see- it threw me right off balance! Corrected- cheers!
:)

[Beach_Red]

Maybe I should of clarified the context and provided more detail before you put your revisionist spin on things.
The teams were successful from an attendance standpoint - yes they could grow. What made them fail was no so much the particular team city, but more the league and other teams. You can't play against yourself. So historically, pundits tell of failure of the game in this city when its not really the case.


And that probably went a long way in MLSE's decision to invest so little in the infrastructure of the team. Why spend a lot of money on experienced execs, managers and coaches, build a proper facility, put in grass, hire a scouting staff and so on if the league isn't going to prosper? TFC joined MLS just before it 'took off' so to speak and franchise fees went from ten million to thirty-five million. Some people would have seen that timing as a chance to get out ahead of the 'new MLS' but they didn't. And now we're here.

[boban]

And that probably went a long way in MLSE's decision to invest so little in the infrastructure of the team. Why spend a lot of money on experienced execs, managers and coaches, build a proper facility, put in grass, hire a scouting staff and so on if the league isn't going to prosper? TFC joined MLS just before it 'took off' so to speak and franchise fees went from ten million to thirty-five million. Some people would have seen that timing as a chance to get out ahead of the 'new MLS' but they didn't. And now we're here.
But the league was not going anywhere. Infrastructure was built and being built elsewhere. They have been around more than a decade at that point, had corporate sponsors and tv contracts. Something that league, and other ones didn't have, fore sure not to that amount.

[Beach_Red]

But the league was not going anywhere. Infrastructure was built and being built elsewhere. They have been around more than a decade at that point, had corporate sponsors and tv contracts. Something that league, and other ones didn't have, fore sure not to that amount.

Well, this where the absolute risk-averse pension plan owners come into play, isn't it. It's really too bad that no one else in this city saw the potential in MLS and was willing to take a bigger chance on it.

[Nodoubtguy]

This thread has gotten touchy at times. We know it's a rant thread and that people are upset, but LEAVE THE PERSONAL ATTACKS OUT OF IT.

Any posts that are deemed to get personal will be dealt with.

Post your opinions and thoughts, but leave the personal attacks out.

[denime]

and to add to that please stay on topic.

POST GAME RANT: Whitecaps VS TFC Mar.19th 2001

not DeRo or ML$E

[scooterTFC]

good god people - this season is TOTALLY different than seasons past.

they are implementing a system that will be taught from age 7 up through the academies, over time - the whole philosophical approach is different and imo for the better - whether you agree with the 4-3-3 or not. what is being developed is for the long-term....on going development....not just throwing money at changing a team from bottom to near top of the table one or 2 seasons but systematically revamping the whole approach.

i can wait for a season or 2 to get it put in place

it is worth it imo

well worth it

it is a TOTALLY different approach towards long term local player development rather than purchasing a team like the Red Bulls. you may want that, i don't....

that was what Kiinsmann was talking about - finding a Toronto style/system and implementing it throughout the academies up to the 1st team.

IT WILL TAKE TIME and it is worth it to wait

rather than after a preseason and game or 2 or 3 or 10 starting all over again - that gets you nowhere other than developing a reputation of constant turnover.

I really hope MLSE doesn't cave to the knee jerk reaction and stays the course.....they blew it 1st time around but listened to the uproar and brought in Klinsmann and got it right - now give it the time it is due...PLEASE!!!

I agree that this year is different. They are implementing a system of play and a long term player development plan to support that system. I respect the ambition of this plan and I really hope it works.

Here's where I disagree with you; I'm not completly sold on this system/development strategy as the primary approach to building an MLS club. In fact I think its a little nieve and idealistic. I think scouting and recruiting the right international players is critical success factor in this league.

It would be ok with me if they did throw money around to do a little bit of a quick fix like NYRB. However I'm not sure the city of Toronto has the same appeal to superstar foreign players as NYC, so it might not be possible for us to build a team through DP recruitment the way they have.

So that leaves us trying to recruit international players with a lower profile then big names that NYC draws. That could work if we have the staff with the right connections and scouting acumen. Right now I feel like they are talking too much about system and development and not enough about scouting and recruitment.

I also wonder how Winter's perspective on how to succeed in the MLS will change over time. He will need to observe, learn and adapt his system/style based on the pace, atheleticism and physicality of the league. For instance facing Hassili and and Kenny Cooper in back to back games to open the season should be an eye opener for him...

[Blowing Bubbles]

The bitching about MLSE is like a broken record by all the usual suspects. Yes, the record of futility of our professional sports teams in recent years speaks for itself. As a diehard fan of all those clubs I have felt it beyond the struggles of TFC.

However, there is absolutely no evidence to support this nonsensical theory that MLSE has not provided the financial support to all of it's sports franchises to build a winner. In fact, MLSE is among the highest spending ownership groups in terms of front office expenditures in the NHL and the NBA. As for TFC, I don't know where MLSE would currently rank, but I'm sure the front office payroll is among the highest in the league this year with all of the recent hirings in the off season. A 17.5 million dollar investment in the TFC Academy does not strike me as the actions of an ownership group that is not interested in building a winning franchise.

If you disagree with the hirings of Brian Burke, Bryan Colangelo, Aron Winter, and Paul Mariner, that is an entirely different argument, and one that may hold merit in certain cases.

There is no damn way you can MLSE has gone to the wall for the Raptors.

How many years have the spent into the luxury tax? 1 YEAR.

This is in a league that perennially had 7-12 teams paying tax, and the only way you were going to in multiple rounds was to play with the big boys. MLSE never got in the mix.

[Shakes McQueen]

There is no damn way you can MLSE has gone to the wall for the Raptors.

How many years have the spent into the luxury tax? 1 YEAR.

This is in a league that perennially had 7-12 teams paying tax, and the only way you were going to in multiple rounds was to play with the big boys. MLSE never got in the mix.

In fairness to MLSE (it kind of hurts to write that, LOL), they expressed a willingness to go into the luxury tax this season, if Bosh had re-signed with the team.

- Scott

[brad]

good god people - this season is TOTALLY different than seasons past.

they are implementing a system that will be taught from age 7 up through the academies, over time - the whole philosophical approach is different and imo for the better - whether you agree with the 4-3-3 or not. what is being developed is for the long-term....on going development....not just throwing money at changing a team from bottom to near top of the table one or 2 seasons but systematically revamping the whole approach.

I have yet to see anyone explain why we can't develop youth for the future and throw money at the current problems. It's not one or the other.


i can wait for a season or 2 to get it put in place

it is worth it imoIt is going to take more than a year or two to reap the benefits of the youth academy. Try five to ten. To develop the type of talent needed, you need to get these kids when they are 7-10 years old and work with them as the mature. Even then - the honest truth is most of the kids won't be good enough to make the first team. That's way it goes with academies world wide.

I agree it will be worth it in the long run though.



it is a TOTALLY different approach towards long term local player development rather than purchasing a team like the Red Bulls. you may want that, i don't....I'd be okay with a couple of fullbacks, another wide player and a DP striker coming in this season personally.


rather than after a preseason and game or 2 or 3 or 10 starting all over again - that gets you nowhere other than developing a reputation of constant turnover.I agree we need stability and we need to stop the constant revolving door of players, but that doesn't mean just waiting for the youth academy players to be ready.


I really hope MLSE doesn't cave to the knee jerk reaction and stays the course.....they blew it 1st time around but listened to the uproar and brought in Klinsmann and got it right - now give it the time it is due...PLEASE!!!Only time will tell if Klinsmann got it right. No way to know that now.

[Blowing Bubbles]

In the last few decades, I witnessed the lean years of model franchises such as the Yankees, Red Sox, Blackhawks, Penguins, and even the Red Wings in the 80's. The fans did not abandon their club. They supported their clubs through thick and thin and probably felt more vindicated than the bandwagon jumpers once their respective teams turned the corner and became winning organizations.


You're kidding right? The Red Wings had to resort to giving cars away when Illitch first took over. The franchise was in the shithouse. He had to rebuild it from the very bottom. Chicago fans turned their back on Wirtz as they finally snapped from years of abuse. Pittsburgh was toying with relocation and needed Mario to trade salary for ownership at one point and then another come and buy the team before it hit bankruptcy.

The Red Sox and Yankees were nowhere near as hot of a ticket as they are now when they weren't winning things in the mid 80's / early 90's. Come on man.

About the only team that has sold out for a decade plus with abusive ownership/management is the New York Knicks. And the Knicks mean more to New York then every other pro sports franchise in the city.

[Blowing Bubbles]

In fairness to MLSE (it kind of hurts to write that, LOL), they expressed a willingness to go into the luxury tax this season, if Bosh had re-signed with the team.

- Scott

It's easy to make that claim when at the time of making it you know the chances of keeping the guy are near zero.

That holds about as much weight to me as Bob Kraft telling a Revs supporter "we almost signed a DP".

[ManUtd4ever]

Mate, your posts in this thread have been bang on. Every single comment you've made I agree with 100%- rational, knowledgable and well written throughout.
As a lifelong City fan, this has been a tough comment to write!

cheers!

Thank you sir, that's much appreciated coming from a City fan!

[Shakes McQueen]

It's easy to make that claim when at the time of making it you know the chances of keeping the guy are near zero.

That holds about as much weight to me as Bob Kraft telling a Revs supporter "we almost signed a DP".

If they had said it in the summer, absolutely. But they said it around the time the team was on a tear in the middle of the season, and most people thought chances were better than 50% that Bosh would stay with the team - not their massive slide to end the season.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

About the only team that has sold out for a decade plus with abusive ownership/management is the New York Knicks. And the Knicks mean more to New York then every other pro sports franchise in the city.

Yankees?

- Scott

[MarkoftheDrink]

Haven't been able to read all of the thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating.

My thoughts on the goals:

The first goal from VCWC was caused by Cann being slow and playing out of position which caused him to get burned by Chiumiento. This would have been fine if Harden had sprinted back and covered his man but he was late so that caused Attakora to be out of position. Which ended up leaving Gargan to cover two players in the box. Also they had ZERO help from Sturgis, who was nowhere to be seen until the ball was in the net... no wait that was Peterson, wtf where was Sturgis?

Great response from Dero, perfect ball from Santos.

Second VCWC goal, Cann made a 'run' :facepalm: and Peterson was back for him, but for some reason Cann felt the need to double team the wide player with Peterson and meanwhile leave Attakora and Sturgis to deal with 3 WC players including the ball. Sturgis while getting back to help decided to keep his back to the play once he got back and thus was slow to react to Dunfield's run into the box.

Third VC goal: Boy Teibert... beauty corner, caused all sorts of issues. Lovely layoff from Gargan, total spaz on that one, though I don't think he knew much about it. Santos looked a bit lost too in front of Harris, not sure why he turned the wrong way.

The 4th almost came on a horrible long pass from Sturgis trying to force it into the middle when nobody was open. After Harden played Harris onside, Frei had to come up with a huge shoulder save.

The forth goal was IMO offside, but not by much and I'm guessing the linesman was out of position. The reason it was so close was Cann seemed to forget they were playing a trap and at the last second slammed the breaks on. That combined with Harden going to ground to try and block the pass and Peterson (I think) completely stopping to ask about the offside flag ended up in a 3 on 0.

On our second we gave VC a bit of their own medicine by loading up on the wing and forcing their fullback to mark two players which pulled their centre over and caused confusion in terms of marking which lead to Santos getting a clear strike at goal.


Overall:

Our passing looked as good as I've seen it, some nice one touches, but we're not confident. The defense seems really scared of turning it over and that's why we're seeing so much of the 'back to Frei'. Midfield needs to be better in terms of keeping the ball or making positive passes while under pressure, but we really need proper fullbacks making runs to alleviate some of that pressure and congestion in the midfield.

Makes me sick knowing Teibert was in our academy, btw anyone have any details on why he left. I'm guessing it's MoJo.

VC caused a lot of problems by overloading on the left and exposed Cann and some sloppy marking.

I'm guessing the Cann experiment was all about him losing his place in the line up after leaving and having to earn it back. Well I don't think he did anything to earn it back but Harden certainly did enough to lose it IMO.

All in all it was pretty much Cann, Sturgis and Harden that conspired to create this loss. I think most of the mistakes, while rooted in a lack of overall talent were also caused by inexperience in the system and/or playing together. It certainly appears that Total football is by no means a misnomer, you need a total team and any lose ends can cause the whole thing to fall apart. That said I'd rather see a 4-2 loss then 1-0 loss playing Preki-ball.

Can't wait until Saturday!

[ManUtd4ever]

I have yet to see anyone explain why we can't develop youth for the future and throw money at the current problems. It's not one or the other.

It is going to take more than a year or two to reap the benefits of the youth academy. Try five to ten. To develop the type of talent needed, you need to get these kids when they are 7-10 years old and work with them as the mature. Even then - the honest truth is most of the kids won't be good enough to make the first team. That's way it goes with academies world wide.

I agree it will be worth it in the long run though.


I'd be okay with a couple of fullbacks, another wide player and a DP striker coming in this season personally.

I agree we need stability and we need to stop the constant revolving door of players, but that doesn't mean just waiting for the youth academy players to be ready.

Only time will tell if Klinsmann got it right. No way to know that now.

Agreed. Based on the reported DP striker that was nearly signed, at least it appears as though management is willing to sign another DP.

[Blowing Bubbles]

But hey, do they ever hodl onto, and play that 67 Cup for all its worth. Something they had NOTHING to do with!!!

So true. And they've milked that for almost all its worth so now they milk the 93-94 SEMI-FINALIST teams.

Seriously, what other team in any other pro league in North America has yearly reunions (complete with big media blitz) for a team that lost a conference final? :facepalm:

[ManUtd4ever]

You're kidding right? The Red Wings had to resort to giving cars away when Illitch first took over. The franchise was in the shithouse. He had to rebuild it from the very bottom. Chicago fans turned their back on Wirtz as they finally snapped from years of abuse. Pittsburgh was toying with relocation and needed Mario to trade salary for ownership at one point and then another come and buy the team before it hit bankruptcy.

The Red Sox and Yankees were nowhere near as hot of a ticket as they are now when they weren't winning things in the mid 80's / early 90's. Come on man.

About the only team that has sold out for a decade plus with abusive ownership/management is the New York Knicks. And the Knicks mean more to New York then every other pro sports franchise in the city.

Granted, those clubs didn't enjoy consistent sellouts during years of futility but their average attendance figures were still relatively respectable compared to other losing markets that dropped to 50-60% capacity.

Anyway, my main point was that supporting a club through a period of turmoil doesn't necessarily equate with being content with mediocrity, that's all.

[Blowing Bubbles]

95% of the bitching in this thread is directed at MLSE for past mistakes, not Winter.

The posts that are basically "hey it's 1 game stop bitching" are deflecting from what this is about.

As others have said already - if anything Winter was put in a terrible position getting hired so late.

[ensco]

^Sadly there are lots of teams that have sellouts and great fans, that have been in the dumpster for a decade. The Redskins, Raiders and Browns in the NFL, the Mets and Cubs, the SF Giants (until last year), the Indiana Pacers...

[Shakes McQueen]

So true. And they've milked that for almost all its worth so now they milk the 93-94 SEMI-FINALIST teams.

Seriously, what other team in any other pro league in North America has yearly reunions (complete with big media blitz) for a team that lost a conference final? :facepalm:

I don't know about team reunions, but lots of teams with old histories like to trot out their fan favourites and stars, regardless of what they won.

I agree that it gets a little sad seeing them trot out Johnny Bower and Darryl Sittler for the nth time, but the live crowd always responds enthusiastically to see guys like them, or Wendel Clark, so who cares?

It's a little pomp and circumstance before the game. When they finally win a cup again, you can bet that those players will be trotted out too.

- Scott

[boban]

I don't know about team reunions, but lots of teams with old histories like to trot out their fan favourites and stars, regardless of what they won.

I agree that it gets a little sad seeing them trot out Johnny Bower and Darryl Sittler for the nth time, but the live crowd always responds enthusiastically to see guys like them, or Wendel Clark, so who cares?

It's a little pomp and circumstance before the game. When they finally win a cup again, you can bet that those players will be trotted out too.

- Scott
But nobody does it to the degree the Leafs do.
They even have a llink and page on the website for the '67 Leafs.
Come on man, it's time MLSE make their stamp on the team, not ride on the history built by previous owners.

[ensco]

95% of the bitching in this thread is directed at MLSE for past mistakes, not Winter.

The posts that are basically "hey it's 1 game stop bitching" are deflecting from what this is about.

As others have said already - if anything Winter was put in a terrible position getting hired so late.

Not true. The Cann at LB debacle, the mysteious post from TFC Regina about the possibility of FO interference around that, the lack of available players....these are the EXACT same issues that have occurred and are recurring. People are freaked out, and right to wonder why.

[J .]

Aside from all the softball questioned lobbed by the Toronto media one thing I did notice was Winter also complaining about the refs right away, very Carver. He was brought up many times. Maybe in a close game, I can see it. But the way they lost, I dont think the refs were to blame.

[Shakes McQueen]

Aside from all the softball questioned lobbed by the Toronto media one thing I did notice was Winter also complaining about the refs right away, very Carver. He was brought up many times. Maybe in a close game, I can see it. But the way they lost, I dont think the refs were to blame.

I'm sure it was probably a bit of a culture shock to him, seeing how bad the officiating is here, compared to Europe.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

Aside from all the softball questioned lobbed by the Toronto media one thing I did notice was Winter also complaining about the refs right away, very Carver. He was brought up many times. Maybe in a close game, I can see it. But the way they lost, I dont think the refs were to blame.

The 4th goal was offside to me, but I haven't seen it definitively. Others have said it was, and some have said it wasn't.

I'll never know, because I'm not going back to re-hash a shite game.

[Shakes McQueen]

The 4th goal was offside to me, but I haven't seen it definitively. Others have said it was, and some have said it wasn't.

I'll never know, because I'm not going back to re-hash a shite game.

I recorded the game at home, so I could watch it when I got home - but when I got home I just deleted it instead, haha.

- Scott

[denime]

The 4th goal was offside to me, but I haven't seen it definitively. Others have said it was, and some have said it wasn't.

I'll never know, because I'm not going back to re-hash a shite game.

No offside,it was pass back.

[2mil4dero+santo]

wow just watched the post game - winter said, and I quote "the third goal was four or five meters offside"... I have just lost all respect for this man.

[Pachuco]

Dero's goal was questionable as well. I think the reason it wasn't called offside is because the commissioner has asked refs to give the attacking player the benefit of the doubt. In most leagues, the defense gets the beneft of the doubt.

Anyways, it's silly to mention the ref. He wasn't bad at all. I saw terrible refing in the world cup, see it in Europe all the time as well (Seria A tends to bug me alot with that). I think this ref thing is blown out of proportion here.

[Derko]

Dero's goal was questionable as well. I think the reason it wasn't called offside is because the commissioner has asked refs to give the attacking player the benefit of the doubt. In most leagues, the defense gets the beneft of the doubt.

Anyways, it's silly to mention the ref. He wasn't bad at all. I saw terrible refing in the world cup, see it in Europe all the time as well (Seria A tends to bug me alot with that). I think this ref thing is blown out of proportion here.

The way I saw Dero's goal was the lob pass was made while Dero was on side, and received the pass behind the defender, is that not onside?

[Darlofletch]

4th goal, the ball over the top to knight looked marginally offside, but very close and it could be the tv angle, we never got a great look at it. definitely wasn't yards offside as winter claimed.

as for cann at lb, problem was he kept playing as if he was a cb. vancouvers first 2 goals, who was jumping with hassli to win the big boot dowen the pitch form nolly? cann. thus he was out of position and they were able to attack and score from their right wing.

don't know if he was told to do that, or took it upon himself, or if it was just smart play by vancouver to be kicking the ball to that side of the pitch to draw him into doing just that.

at corners as well, cann was the guy wrestling with hassli. if he's going to be asked to do the "big strong cb" stuff, why have him at lb?

the whole "his hand was forced" thing, I don't like the sound of that, but the other options are winter's an idiot, or winter's a stubborn petty bastard. none of the options are good ones.

[ManUtd4ever]

4th goal, the ball over the top to knight looked marginally offside, but very close and it could be the tv angle, we never got a great look at it. definitely wasn't yards offside as winter claimed.

as for cann at lb, problem was he kept playing as if he was a cb. vancouvers first 2 goals, who was jumping with hassli to win the big boot dowen the pitch form nolly? cann. thus he was out of position and they were able to attack and score from their right wing.

don't know if he was told to do that, or took it upon himself, or if it was just smart play by vancouver to be kicking the ball to that side of the pitch to draw him into doing just that.

at corners as well, cann was the guy wrestling with hassli. if he's going to be asked to do the "big strong cb" stuff, why have him at lb?

the whole "his hand was forced" thing, I don't like the sound of that, but the other options are winter's an idiot, or winter's a stubborn petty bastard. none of the options are good ones.

I agree wholeheartedly about the Cann debacle. As soon as I saw him at LB I knew we were in trouble. I guess we'll never know the true reasoning behind such a questionable maneuver. I suspect it was to force Cann to earn his regular spot back in the lineup after he left the team? Why teach him a lesson at the cost of 3 points though? In any case, it's definitely disturbing...

[2mil4dero+santo]

4th goal, the ball over the top to knight looked marginally offside, but very close and it could be the tv angle, we never got a great look at it. definitely wasn't yards offside as winter claimed.

as for cann at lb, problem was he kept playing as if he was a cb. vancouvers first 2 goals, who was jumping with hassli to win the big boot dowen the pitch form nolly? cann. thus he was out of position and they were able to attack and score from their right wing.

don't know if he was told to do that, or took it upon himself, or if it was just smart play by vancouver to be kicking the ball to that side of the pitch to draw him into doing just that.

at corners as well, cann was the guy wrestling with hassli. if he's going to be asked to do the "big strong cb" stuff, why have him at lb?

the whole "his hand was forced" thing, I don't like the sound of that, but the other options are winter's an idiot, or winter's a stubborn petty bastard. none of the options are good ones.

Winter is really starting to worry me. I know it's early and I'm not saying can him, but as for early impressions I'm a little troubled. To make such an outrageous comment that their third goal was "4 to 5 yards offside" - when do you ever see someone more than 1 yard offside in pro soccer?!
and to imply we could have seen a result if that goal was disallowed for offside. He complains about the officiating in a game that was lost due to obvious glaring mistakes from our players. That was quite possibly the craziest interview I've heard in a while, he's either a) delusional b) thinks we are idiots who'll believe anything he says or c) and I hope its this - perhaps there is a problem with his english and he mispoke?

[TFCRegina]

No offside,it was pass back.

So was that one that Hutch scored in 2007.

[MarkoftheDrink]

Winter is really starting to worry me. I know it's early and I'm not saying can him, but as for early impressions I'm a little troubled. To make such an outrageous comment that their third goal was "4 to 5 yards offside" - when do you ever see someone more than 1 yard offside in pro soccer?!
and to imply we could have seen a result if that goal was disallowed for offside. He complains about the officiating in a game that was lost due to obvious glaring mistakes from our players. That was quite possibly the craziest interview I've heard in a while, he's either a) delusional b) thinks we are idiots who'll believe anything he says or c) and I hope its this - perhaps there is a problem with his english and he mispoke?

or d) he really looked like he was 4-5 yards offside.

I'm not saying he was, but if you go back and watch the play, IMO he was slightly offside but what made it look so offside was Cann who was marking Knight (I think) and at the last second he realized that they were playing a trap and slammed on the breaks. So if you were watching the ball then looked at Knight he was like 5 yards beyond Cann, who just finished stopping and started looking for a flag. Tough call either way since I think the linesman was up field.

[2mil4dero+santo]

or d) he really looked like he was 4-5 yards offside.

I'm not saying he was, but if you go back and watch the play, IMO he was slightly offside but what made it look so offside was Cann who was marking Knight (I think) and at the last second he realized that they were playing a trap and slammed on the breaks. So if you were watching the ball then looked at Knight he was like 5 yards beyond Cann, who just finished stopping and started looking for a flag. Tough call either way since I think the linesman was up field.

I agree it was a close call, most are at this level. I happen to think it was onside but didn't get the greatest look at it. It was an easy one for the linesman, the ball was far side and the pass telegraphed - he would have had a good view.
Anyways, offside or not, my concern is that Winter seemed to deflect blame onto the officiating when imo they had nothing to do with the outcome. How many times did Vancouver get behind our defense? How many breakaways? Yet according to him, one of the reasons we lost is because the officials didn't call the third goal offside. This infuriates me to no end...

[e-karam]

These "losing to an expansion side is a disgrace" comments piss me off. Vancouver have had the same coach and system for a few years now, we could barely beat them in the NCC the last three years, and we've always been terrible on the road.

I actually thought we were more threatening in attack than ever before on the road, JDG is gonna shine in this system, and once we get attakora and cann togeher in the centre our defence should stabilize.

I'm confident things will turn around.

[Auzzy]

I think the 4th goal was not offside. (And most certainly not by a few metres.) I admit it was a quick play with overlapping players. While watching the game live I was sure it was offside myself, so I can see how Winter & others were confused. It's pretty well visible on the "game in 6 minutes" though. I did my best to grab a screenshot at the right moment:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5264/5548524101_36e3656390.jpg

It's a matter of inches & milliseconds, and it depends exactly where in the kicking motion of the passing player you freeze the frame. (I don't have any software here to do a good job of that.) Note the camera is on a slight angle, but Cann is at least even with the attacker, and there is absolutely no "line" being held by any TFC player. In many leagues around the world, they wouldn't call this either, or not consistently, so the defenders shouldn't rely on it.

FIFA has said for years that even is not offside. In the past years, we saw many bad offside calls in MLS, where guys were called that were onside. The linesmen don't have slo-mo & freeze frame, so there is often some doubt. I think the league is now just instructing the officials, it should be clearly offside w/o a doubt if you call it.

TFC & Winter better adapt to this quickly. It was shocking the way all the TFC players gave up on the 4th goal.

Now I do think the ref made some other very bad (non-) calls. E.g., when Hassli crunched Attakora early on, near the side. I thought it was a card for sure, but the ref didn't even give a freekick, it was just a throw-in. Admittedly, some bad decisions favoured TFC as well. In any case, for Winter to hype up the officiating after such a piss-poor performance by TFC, does not bode well for him dealing with some of the bigger crap that he's going to experience in this league.

[MarkoftheDrink]

I think we can all agree it was close. The only reason it was so close was Cann fucking up and stopping too late. Either way nobody ran back after and that could have made a difference.

I totally agree with you about the ref, he called a very physical game and kept his whistle in his pocket when he shouldn't have. That said I don't think Winter berating his players in public would be very productive, what he did may have been a way of deflecting more so than a comment on the ref. Not sure why everyone thinks it's so heinous. I guess his true motives will be seen later on in the season.