DeRo Situation Update - How does this sound to you?

[Pookie]

... perhaps merge this with the DeRo thread?

I'm not going to comment on the quotes based on a promise I made to myself not to get sucked into the endless debate. However, here are the latest comments:

DeRo: "It's just a very frustrating process," De DeRosario said Wednesday, a day before the team's departure for Vancouver. "I have to try to just focus on playing and forget about all the empty promises and things said that haven't fulfilled themselves yet, and just play for those guys in the locker-room and play for the fans."

"You've seen other players, this has been an ongoing process here. The main thing we just want to do is play, but there's a business side to it and every player wants to get their just reward and if you say something, stick by it."

Winter: "He's a good guy, he's doing well. How the future is going to (play out) I don't know, but at this moment it's most important that everybody and also the players and also Dwayne be focused on the game on Saturday."


http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=358293

[TFCRegina]

It sounds like De Ro isn't gonna get what he wants...yet. It also sounds like Winter is willing to drop him if De Ro doesn't perform this season.

Winter may reward him if he performs well. We don't know how the future is going to play out.

/endstory

[DichioTFC]

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was egged into commenting, but it's unfortunate to see DeRo focused on off-field issues.

I get the feeling that DeRo will end up getting screwed in the end. His whole situation has The Godfather II feel to it.

[denime]

Winter will play him to show everyone how good he is is and than trade him before April 15th. ;)

[ManUtd4ever]

It sounds exactly like the culmination of everything that has been reported to have transpired up to this point.

In an effort to renegotiate DeRo's existing contract in good faith, Winter and Mariner had come up with an increased salary offer in the range of 600K (utilizing allocation to supplement his current salary), and DeRo allegedly asked for well over 1 million dollars. The gap is substantial and cannot be compromised.

DeRo has likely realized that TFC management's hands are tied, and the league will not allow him to be granted DP status by voiding his existing contract. Other than holding out, which would be detrimental to his career, DeRo really has no choice but to put his grievances aside for his sake and the well being of the club.

[Shakes McQueen]

If the league won't allow DeRo to take up a DP slot, then I'm stunned that he wouldn't accept $600k/yr.

At that point, his only remaining option would be to try and win the lottery in Europe, but at his age, what are the odds that he gets offered more than $600k/yr over there?

- Scott

[Section 117]

Shakes the chances of Dero making it in Europe are slim and none. So as you can see he is a big fish in a small pond, but in a big pond he is an after thought. He is too old and has too many holes in his game. He and his agent/possee are on some serious drugs if they think he is worth more than $600k.

[craigtfc]

Strip him of the armband NOW! I'm sick of his shit!

[Shakes McQueen]

Strip him of the armband NOW! I'm sick of his shit!

Sick of what? He tried to avoid the media altogether by refusing to talk to them yesterday, and then today faced them and was asked for specific comment on the situation.

I've got no problem with him saying he's frustrated by the situation, but is now trying to focus on the upcoming season. This isn't an easy situation, if it's true that Mo made specific promises to him - particularly with all new management in charge.

Lord knowns I've been more than slightly critical of the way way DeRo has handled himself throughout all of this, but I don't have any problem with this. If he sulks about it all year instead of giving his all, and poisons the locker room I will have a problem, but we aren't there yet.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

Shakes the chances of Dero making it in Europe are slim and none. So as you can see he is a big fish in a small pond, but in a big pond he is an after thought. He is too old and has too many holes in his game. He and his agent/possee are on some serious drugs if they think he is worth more than $600k.

Until I hear it from other sources, the 600k thing is an unsubstantiated rumour in my eyes. I wouldn't be so quick to judge him based on one comment here on these boards.

[Stryker]

Mo lied to you DeRo, time to get over it.
Don't feel bad though, he also lied to alot of your teammates, his bosses, his coaches and all the fans.

[jvanpeebles]

If the league won't allow DeRo to take up a DP slot, then I'm stunned that he wouldn't accept $600k/yr.

At that point, his only remaining option would be to try and win the lottery in Europe, but at his age, what are the odds that he gets offered more than $600k/yr over there?

- Scott

forgive me if i am wrong but i thought the purpose of the DP was to retain players here not bring in players from everywhere else. If that is the case why would the league not allow this?

[Shakes McQueen]

forgive me if i am wrong but i thought the purpose of the DP was to retain players here not bring in players from everywhere else. If that is the case why would the league not allow this?

I believe the league wants it used in the exact opposite fashion, actually. They've frowned upon using the DP tag to essentially give non-DP players a raise, and instead want it used to bring in high quality players from the rest of the world. As I recall, the league actually rejected giving DeRo the DP tag at some point.

- Scott

[Pookie]

The ineresting part of the quotes from all sources is Winter's.

Not knowing how the future will play out likely means one of two things (since he knows the DP tag is not something the league will do):

- DeRo accepts everything and becomes the team player Winter expects him to be
- new signings on the horizon make him expendable when they materialize. DeRo becomes a short term stop gap with a moving van on call.

[Carts]

I can't even imagine our roster right now without him...

We're already underdogs against an expansion team - without him, they'd be taking over/under bets in Vegas on how many goals we score all season at 5...

Carts...

[OurGame]

Dero's Best move right now is to sit out and make a stand...

[Carts]

Dero's Best move right now is to sit out and make a stand...

For him, probably - for us? WE GET KILLED... :(

[OurGame]

I mean the team isn't really a powerhouse and yes we are headed in right direction but for now it's time to park the dero scoring machine .. Now is when he has leverage

[Pookie]

^ leverage against who?

The League isn't going to hand out a DP contract to players like him, Le Toux, Casey, Cunningham.

It isn't MLSE's decision.

[ManUtd4ever]

Until I hear it from other sources, the 600k thing is an unsubstantiated rumour in my eyes. I wouldn't be so quick to judge him based on one comment here on these boards.

It's not based on one comment on these boards, it's based on information that was provided by Oldtimer in the other thread that was sourced from The Footy Show. It sounds legitimate to me.

Here is the original post if you missed it.


According to the Score's Footy Show #316 (1/27/11), DeRo is asking for $1.7 million.

TFC has offered $600 k (done by using allocation).

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/...+Footy+Blog%29 (http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2011/01/27/the-footy-show-podcast-jan-27th/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFootyBlog+%28The+Footy+Blo g%29)

Here's my thoughts:

1. He wants to earn more than JDG.

2. I think we could buy a much better player than DeRo for $1.7 million/year.

3. He would be the 5th highest player in MLS, ahead of Angel.

4. There is no way he is getting that kind of money.

5. This shows another way being "MeRo" has hurt the team. We've lost several good players to free up cap space. It was a mystery why we needed so much cap space. Now we know why, and it's DeRo. This lack of cap space will also make it difficult to sign new quality players. Hey, but it's not about the team, it's not about long-suffering Toronto fans being able to have a quality squad to play for them. It's all about him. His money. His ego needs to be the highest-paid.

[ManUtd4ever]

Dero's Best move right now is to sit out and make a stand...

Actually, that is the worst possible move at this juncture considering the league is not willing to void his existing contract. If by leverage, you mean DeRo being suspended indefinitely without pay, then yes, it's a great move...

[OurGame]

MLSE made the decision to give out DP status to others.. They could choose to give to Dero .. bottom line

Dero plays gets hurt he is screwed !!!! i would play half ass then if what you are saying is correct ..
Fuck the team and fuck the league just coast / why bother ...
no respect he is getting as leagues best player arguably

[Chevy]

If the league won't allow DeRo to take up a DP slot, then I'm stunned that he wouldn't accept $600k/yr.

At that point, his only remaining option would be to try and win the lottery in Europe, but at his age, what are the odds that he gets offered more than $600k/yr over there?

- Scott

He has a better chance playing Lotto max. In Scotland the average salary is around $400k, and the highest paid player is Freddy at $1.3MM?? I certainly don't see the EPL or La Liga calling anytime soon so he should set his ego aside and concentrate on kicking a ball around.

Regardless, we have never seen evidence that any club, anywhere, anytime is willing to pay DeRo $1m+ a season. We realize that's a dream, but why can't he?

[ManUtd4ever]

MLSE made the decision to give out DP status to others.. They could choose to give to Dero .. bottom line


This is not accurate. An MLS league official issued a statement to the media after the TFC 'meet the player' press conference indicating that MLS already renegotiated his contract mid term to double his salary when he was traded to Toronto, and they weren't willing to revisit his contract situation mid term yet again.

It's been made quite clear throughout this entire scenario that DeRo's contract is with MLS, not MLSE.

[Beach_Red]

^ leverage against who?

The League isn't going to hand out a DP contract to players like him, Le Toux, Casey, Cunningham.

It isn't MLSE's decision.

It's true, DeRo has zero leverage, this is a take it or leave it offer, it's not a negotiation. That's the main point of a single-entity league, even if MLSE wanted to pay him (or someone else in a similar situation) the league would say no.

At the moment many people support this (maybe because of the cheque writing or comments or whatever) but this is a "process," as DeRo says, that will work against our team far more often than it will work in our favour.

[maninb]

"no respect he is getting as leagues best player arguably"????? ROTFLMAO!!!

The BEST PLAYER??....sorry mate...are you drunk? I wouldn't even put him in the Top 10..he's one dimensional...he's a scorer who won't pass the ball and won't track back...not to mention his brutal attitude...

[OurGame]

This is not accurate. An MLS league official issued a statement to the media after the TFC 'meet the player' press conference indicating that MLS already renegotiated his contract mid term to double his salary when he was traded to Toronto, and they weren't willing to revisit his contract situation mid term yet again.

It's been made quite clear throughout this entire scenario that DeRo's contract is with MLS, not MLSE.

I get the contract is held by MLS but do u seriously think MLSE just sits there and says whatever you want MLS..

they decide who get's what for god's sake

[DangerRed]

How is it that with two days before the first game of the season, D-Money is again talking about his situation? How low-class and self-centered is that? If someone specifically asked him about his contract, he should've replied "This isn't the time to talk about this. Our first league game is in two days, and that's what my mind is focused on 100% right now."

If, as reported, D-Money is asking for $1.7 million, he should be shown the door. I agree that without a doubt, we could buy a much better player for $1.7 mln a year.

People are forgetting D-Money isn't the only guy in the world who can score goals. And "people" includes D-Money in this instance.

Now, Roogsy will tell you D-Money doesn't age, will remain a goal machine in perpetuity, his old contracts he signed don't matter, and that without him the team will fall apart. I say enough of 80-page threads on this. MLSE should put it to the test and we as supporters should be willing to take the chance. Get him out of here and spend the money on another goal machine who won't complain.

[bgnewf]

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was egged into commenting, but it's unfortunate to see DeRo focused on off-field issues.

I get the feeling that DeRo will end up getting screwed in the end. His whole situation has The Godfather II feel to it.

I was in the room and I am unsure what you mean by "egged on"?

Questions were asked and answered.

[ensco]

The failure of the mods to merge this and other Dero threads into the original Dero thread is a scandal. Just brutal. 100 pages used to mean something around here.

I am very, very disappointed with everyone involved in this sorry situation.

[Gazza]

If the league won't allow DeRo to take up a DP slot, then I'm stunned that he wouldn't accept $600k/yr.

At that point, his only remaining option would be to try and win the lottery in Europe, but at his age, what are the odds that he gets offered more than $600k/yr over there?

- Scott

Great post. I think he can easily make a half-decent european club. But he won't be winning the "lottery" there. So his european bargaining chips are pretty much spent. I doubt he leaves his family and jets off to europe for less or similar money.

I get the sense that he's as frustrated as anybody to have to talk about it now. But look what happens when he tells the media he doesn't want to speak to them.

[ManUtd4ever]

The failure of the mods to merge this and other Dero threads into the original Dero thread is a scandal. Just brutal. 100 pages used to mean something around here.

I am very, very disappointed with everyone involved in this sorry situation.

LOL, me too...

[ManUtd4ever]

I get the contract is held by MLS but do u seriously think MLSE just sits there and says whatever you want MLS..

they decide who get's what for god's sake

Again, DeRo's contract is with the league and he is entering the 3rd year of a 4 year deal (a club option that TFC has exercised). In terms of renegotiating the actual figures of his existing contract, MLS holds all the cards.

[TFCRegina]

"I just want to go out there and play and let my play do the talking," he told reporters Wednesday.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/back+Square+Toronto/4454473/story.html#ixzz1Grdv6yRJ

I didn't see that in the Toronto based papers. Maybe i read them too quickly, but it sounds like De Ro's being filtered to cause sensational bullshit.

[mastermixer]

The media in this town are like rabid wolves looking for scandal to sell more papers and get more attention than the next guy. Maybe DeRo really doesn't want to talk about it anymore and keep it behind the scenes, but if they keep prodding he has to say something. I actually feel bad for the dude.

[ManUtd4ever]

How is it that with two days before the first game of the season, D-Money is again talking about his situation? How low-class and self-centered is that? If someone specifically asked him about his contract, he should've replied "This isn't the time to talk about this. Our first league game is in two days, and that's what my mind is focused on 100% right now."

If, as reported, D-Money is asking for $1.7 million, he should be shown the door. I agree that without a doubt, we could buy a much better player for $1.7 mln a year.

People are forgetting D-Money isn't the only guy in the world who can score goals. And "people" includes D-Money in this instance.

Now, Roogsy will tell you D-Money doesn't age, will remain a goal machine in perpetuity, his old contracts he signed don't matter, and that without him the team will fall apart. I say enough of 80-page threads on this. MLSE should put it to the test and we as supporters should be willing to take the chance. Get him out of here and spend the money on another goal machine who won't complain.

I agree that his salary expectations are unrealistic, but in terms of his response to the media, you're being harsh. DeRo indicated that although he's frustrated with the negotiating process and empty promises (by the previous regime) he's trying to focus on playing football for his teammates and the good of the club. It's not as if he deliberately caused a controversy this time, he just addressed the media based on the questions that were posed to him.

[brad]

I get the contract is held by MLS but do u seriously think MLSE just sits there and says whatever you want MLS..

they decide who get's what for god's sake

You have a lot to learn about how MLS works...

[v00d00daddy]

Great post. I think he can easily make a half-decent european club. But he won't be winning the "lottery" there. So his european bargaining chips are pretty much spent. I doubt he leaves his family and jets off to europe for less or similar money.

I get the sense that he's as frustrated as anybody to have to talk about it now. But look what happens when he tells the media he doesn't want to speak to them.

There is a difference between saying nothing and saying the right things.

As mentioned earlier...he should just say that its not the time or place to talk about contracts now.

He goes from silence to voicing his frustration. Its ridiculous, 2 days before the first game.

I hope he holds out. This way the search for his replacement can start.

We're gonna struggle this year (imo) so it may as well be without him. I wouldnt miss him at all.

And all this after I was so fucking excited when he first came. lol...its sad

[mastermixer]

Wow... DeRo is the ultimate love or hate player around here.

[DangerRed]

I agree that his salary expectations are unrealistic, but in terms of his response to the media, you're being harsh. DeRo indicated that although he's frustrated with the negotiating process and empty promises (by the previous regime) he's trying to focus on playing football for his teammates and the good of the club. It's not as if he deliberately caused a controversy this time, he just addressed the media based on the questions that were posed to him.

You make a fair point. I'm not taking issue as much with his response as I am with the fact that he can't seem to help himself when he's asked about his contract. He could've taken the high road and not said a single word about it altogether and we wouldn't be looking at the drama-filled headlines we're seeing today. That would make me feel better two days from kickoff and would show that the captain's focused on the task at hand. That's all I'm saying.

[Gazza]

There is a difference between saying nothing and saying the right things.

As mentioned earlier...he should just say that its not the time or place to talk about contracts now.

He goes from silence to voicing his frustration. Its ridiculous, 2 days before the first game.

I hope he holds out. This way the search for his replacement can start.

We're gonna struggle this year (imo) so it may as well be without him. I wouldnt miss him at all.

And all this after I was so fucking excited when he first came. lol...its sad


I'm just hoping to see an angry, contract-hungry De Rosario take out his frustrations on the White Caps.

You think you're underpaid? Well here's ANOTHER big opportunity to prove it.

[Roogsy]

Now, Roogsy will tell you D-Money doesn't age, will remain a goal machine in perpetuity, his old contracts he signed don't matter, and that without him the team will fall apart.


Yeah...that's what I said.

Either that or you have serious comprehension issues and just what you want to see. How about you retain some measure of logic and avoid oversimplification and exaggeration? :rolleyes:

This is why I was an idiot to get into this discussion with you guys. While I may have a bias, at least I stuck to the facts instead of relying on conjecture and baseless accusations not to mention complete delusion about replacing DeRo's production.

[ManUtd4ever]

You make a fair point. I'm not taking issue as much with his response as I am with the fact that he can't seem to help himself when he's asked about his contract. He could've taken the high road and not said a single word about it altogether and we wouldn't be looking at the drama-filled headlines we're seeing today. That would make me feel better two days from kickoff and would show that the captain's focused on the task at hand. That's all I'm saying.

Fair enough. I suppose he could have simply said "no comment" but he's an emotional guy, and in his own way I think his heart is still in the right place as far as his role on this club. I have no doubt that he will still give a 100% effort on the pitch and that's all that really matters.

[mastermixer]

Fair enough. I suppose he could have simply said "no comment" but he's an emotional guy, and in his own way I think his heart is still in the right place as far as his role on this club. I have no doubt that he will still give a 100% effort on the pitch and that's all that really matters.

Exactly... This will actually motivate him to perform better on the pitch to justify a raise. He realizes if he doesnt perform up to par this year then what reason will they have to give him any increase.

[Whoop]

^^
Wouldn't they just pick up his contract for next year?

[Mark in Ottawa]

I am just tired of this whole debate.
He has an existing contract and is expected to perform on the field.

TFC and his agent can go off somewhere and talk, hopefully quietly and not in the media.

Lets get on with the season and let the chips fall where they may!

[Chevy]

You make a fair point. I'm not taking issue as much with his response as I am with the fact that he can't seem to help himself when he's asked about his contract. He could've taken the high road and not said a single word about it altogether and we wouldn't be looking at the drama-filled headlines we're seeing today. That would make me feel better two days from kickoff and would show that the captain's focused on the task at hand. That's all I'm saying.

I agree that he was probably goaded into commenting on his contract (and unfortunately not smart or unemotional enough to realize he was being played).

I also think that no matter what happens this season (outside of a million dollar raise :D) he will be unable to drop the issue and just play football.

[Roogsy]

I agree that some finality to this situation is needed. But that only happens if both sides come to a conclusion on this mess. Either TFC give DeRo a contract he can live with or they say this is it, no more negotiations the season has begun and he has to decide either to play under this contract or to take other measures. Either way, with TFC failing to provide transparency and finality to this, they are just as guilty as anyone for extending this issue beyond what anyone can feel comfortable with. We ALL want this to be finished. It's bad enough this team is projected to be worse than last year, I don't want to hear about contract issues making the environment around the team even more negative.

[Wull]

Looks like Dobson isn't the only one shit-stirring atm. There's not much the guy could do or say with constant questions being asked. Yes, he's frustrated, yes Mo(ron) lied to him and countless others, yes the league has said there won't be any re-negotiations.
Nothing he said here that is in any way negative hasn't been said before. What has been said that's new is all quite positive so why we're hacking him to bits for yesterday I don't know (and yes I still want him gone for his antics with the whole trial/training bullshit, but let's be fair)

[Whoop]

Either way, with TFC failing to provide transparency and finality to this, they are just as guilty as anyone for extending this issue beyond what anyone can feel comfortable with.

I don't want to get into this whole thing again - other than I told you so ;) - what transparency?

Things are as transparent as they can be. How much more transparency does there need to be or finality?

He has a contract for this season. If he performs well, TFC will pick up his contract for next year.

I understand his concern is if he doesn't play well this year, the team can drop his contract. And then he'll be a free agent.

[Chevy]

^^ and of course there is absolutely NO culpability on Dero's part. :)

[Roogsy]

I don't want to get into this whole thing again - other than I told you so ;) - what transparency?

Things are as transparent as they can be. How much more transparency does there need to be or finality?

He has a contract for this season. If he performs well, TFC will pick up his contract for next year.

I understand his concern is if he doesn't play well this year, the team can drop his contract. And then he'll be a free agent.

I am not sure what you "told me so". The finality that I spoke of in my post is to put this issue to bed once and for all and the transparency to make public the promises that were made and not kept and what the team has put forward to try to satisfy the player.

[Beach_Red]

I don't want to get into this whole thing again - other than I told you so ;) - what transparency?

Things are as transparent as they can be. How much more transparency does there need to be or finality?

He has a contract for this season. If he performs well, TFC will pick up his contract for next year.

I understand his concern is if he doesn't play well this year, the team can drop his contract. And then he'll be a free agent.


Yes, that's really it. The best he can expect is for his contract to get picked up for another year - he's not going to get a raise.

This whole mess will be done either at the end of this year or the end of next year if the team picks up the option, but the effect it will have on other player's negotiations with MLS will probably last a little longer. At some point MLS may decide it doesn't want to only be a feeder league and will want to hold on to players who spend most of their careers here and change their stance. Until then any player who thinks he has the most remote chance at moving on will only sign a short-term contract here.

[Whoop]

The "told you so" is not to you... just in generality.

To TFC it isn't an issue because there's a contract. DeRo is the one complaining.

The team, and DeRo, don't have to negotiate in public. I'll give them that.

As for the promises made and unmade, NO ONE has come forward to say what the promises made were. For all I know, promises made/unmade is all speculation. (I know it's not, but no one has said in the media what promises were made.)

The contract is transparent.

[Lizzy]

Yes, that's really it. The best he can expect is for his contract to get picked up for another year - he's not going to get a raise.

This whole mess will be done either at the end of this year or the end of next year if the team picks up the option, but the effect it will have on other player's negotiations with MLS will probably last a little longer. At some point MLS may decide it doesn't want to only be a feeder league and will want to hold on to players who spend most of their careers here and change their stance. Until then any player who thinks he has the most remote chance at moving on will only sign a short-term contract here.

When did MLS decide they only want to be a feeder league? Where have you heard an MLS official, be it Don Garber, Mark Abbott, or any team owner, say they are a feeder league?

[Whoop]

Well, aren't ALL leagues essentially feeder leagues for clubs in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga? LOL

[rocker]

I am not sure what you "told me so". The finality that I spoke of in my post is to put this issue to bed once and for all and the transparency to make public the promises that were made and not kept and what the team has put forward to try to satisfy the player.

I'd like to find out what would satisfy De Ro.

[Chevy]

That's true Whoopee, we have never actually heard what these supposed promises were. I find it hard to believe that with a player that would complain about a rainy day in April would somehow keep his mouth shut regarding a 'million dollar' promise. Doesn't compute.

Even in the famous Wheeler interview he doesn't actually state that a promise was made, he says "he was under the understanding.." - maybe his agent was BSing him? Maybe he's just a simpleton (sorry, but that has to be a consideration here)?

I put this in the same category as the 'big Euro clubs' that over the last decade have been just dying to sign our fearless skipper. BS.

In summary DeRo, STFU. (edit - i do admit the media have working a little hard this week to stir s**t up)

[Beach_Red]

Well, aren't ALL leagues essentially feeder leagues for clubs in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga? LOL

Yes, but it's un-American for them to think they'll be anything but the top ;).

[Roogsy]

As for the promises made and unmade, NO ONE has come forward to say what the promises made were. For all I know, promises made/unmade is all speculation. (I know it's not, but no one has said in the media what promises were made.)


Then that is a part of the transparecy that should be made. DeRo has alluded to promises unkept, the team should either confirm or deny these promises and if they confirm there were promises, clarify what these promises were.

[Whoop]

But why doesn't DeRo come out and say what the promises were?

Why does it fall on the club?

As far the club knows there is a contract in place therefore any promises made could be just speculation.

[Roogsy]

But why doesn't DeRo come out and say what the promises were?

Why does it fall on the club?

As far the club knows there is a contract in place therefore any promises made could be just speculation.


DeRo has already given you more information than the club has. So you want DeRo to give you ALL the information and the club none? The reverse question can be asked as well...why does it fall on DeRo? And why are you tellin us what the "club knows"? Do you know for certain that the club was not aware of what Mo negotiated with DeRo and Cann and probably others? Were these deals done in some back alley?

No, basically you are providing the excuse of ignorance for the club. I am quite sure more than a single member of TFC front office staff were involved in negotiations and thus were aware of the details so it's not like the only people who can certify what happened are Mo, DeRo and his agent. If anything, considering Mo and the club were still in negotiations when DeRo made his cheque-signing demonstration, you don't think one of the main questions they asked to Mo before he left and before they signed over his severance package was details on the DeRo trade? You are giving TFC far too much slack. I keep reading around here how "stupid" DeRo was for signing this contract and for negotiating in good faith with TFC, well, how stupid are TFC that they are stuck in this situation and according to you, still don't know nuthin'?

[Darlofletch]

The media in this town are like rabid wolves looking for scandal to sell more papers and get more attention than the next guy. Maybe DeRo really doesn't want to talk about it anymore and keep it behind the scenes, but if they keep prodding he has to say something. I actually feel bad for the dude.

yep, kind of agree with that, he was never going to be allowed to just give a no comment and move on. he seems reluctant to talk about it, but wehen pressed he'll be honest and admit his feelings that it's frustrating. the cheque signing was him pro catively getting iot out there, now it seems like it's the reporters forcing it out of him.

[rocker]

Then that is a part of the transparecy that should be made. DeRo has alluded to promises unkept, the team should either confirm or deny these promises and if they confirm there were promises, clarify what these promises were.

of course, that could be seen as "negotiating in the media" to "pressure the player."

they can't win, really, with that. we've already seen what happened with publishing an article about Cann leaving the team -- certain fans didn't appreciate that openness.

Personally I'd like to hear exactly what De Ro has been offered (from the mouth of Mariner or De Ro).
Then I'd like to hear exactly from De Ro's mouth what he asked for.

[Razor]

We need to trade him or find a better replacement for him. This shit has been going on for months and months and it's BORING!! Bye D-money. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Let's play football and move on.

[Beach_Red]

DeRo has already given you more information than the club has. So you want DeRo to give you ALL the information and the club none? The reverse question can be asked as well...why does it fall on DeRo? And why are you tellin us what the "club knows"? Do you know for certain that the club was not aware of what Mo negotiated with DeRo and Cann and probably others? Were these deals done in some back alley?

No, basically you are providing the excuse of ignorance for the club. I am quite sure more than a single member of TFC front office staff were involved in negotiations and thus were aware of the details so it's not like the only people who can certify what happened are Mo, DeRo and his agent. If anything, considering Mo and the club were still in negotiations when DeRo made his cheque-signing demonstration, you don't think one of the main questions they asked to Mo before he left and before they signed over his severance package was details on the DeRo trade? You are giving TFC far too much slack. I keep reading around here how "stupid" DeRo was for signing this contract and for negotiating in good faith with TFC, well, how stupid are TFC that they are stuck in this situation and according to you, still don't know nuthin'?


You're right, but this "situation" doesn't hurt the team so they don't have to do anything about it. Soon DeRo's contract will be up and it will be over. No agent should have taken any promises seriously and none will in the future. But that doesn't hurt TFC's negotiating position with players so it's not something they need to address.

[Roogsy]

of course, that could be seen as "negotiating in the media" to "pressure the player."

they can't win, really, with that. we've already seen what happened with publishing an article about Cann leaving the team -- certain fans didn't appreciate that openness.

Personally I'd like to hear exactly what De Ro has been offered (from the mouth of Mariner or De Ro).
Then I'd like to hear exactly from De Ro's mouth what he asked for.

I wouldn't even care about what was promised if TFC and DeRo could come to some sort of agreement. Something both parties could live with. If that was the solution here, I wouldn't care what Liar Mo promised DeRo, it would have to be put in the past.

But they haven't reached an agreement. We have a new management team that has stepped into an awkward situation, including our best player being unhappy. Is it good for any team to have their best player unhappy? So either get a deal done or you owe it to the fans to tell us just what the hell is going on! We've been asked to put confidence in this team while it rebuilds...well, how much confidence can fans have when they can't even get this situation resolved?

[mastermixer]

MO needs to come back and do one more episode of 'Extra Time' with Andi and settle this all. They could probably sell tickets to see it. First 100 get a ripe tomato.

[Chevy]

I wouldn't even care about what was promised if TFC and DeRo could come to some sort of agreement. Something both parties could live with. If that was the solution here, I wouldn't care what Liar Mo promised DeRo, it would have to be put in the past.

But they haven't reached an agreement. We have a new management team that has stepped into an awkward situation, including our best player being unhappy. Is it good for any team to have their best player unhappy? So either get a deal done or you owe it to the fans to tell us just what the hell is going on! We've been asked to put confidence in this team while it rebuilds...well, how much confidence can fans have when they can't even get this situation resolved?

When a guy who is worth $400k is asking for $1.5M, why exactly is that the club's fault?

[Whoop]

The club has been pretty transparent.

Tom Anselmi


“We re-opened his deal, we gave him a big raise and at the time he said he’d be happy. This would be opening this contract for the second time, which is ludicrous.”

Paul Mariner


The team’s director of player development, Paul Mariner, said he’d sent an offer sheet to De Rosario and his U.K.-based agent, David Baldwin, on Tuesday night. It was the same offer sheet that the team sent weeks ago when they were training in Turkey.
According to Mariner, it represents “more guaranteed money.” That’s not to be confused with “more money”. De Rosario has an incentivized contract that maxes him out at around $500,000 per annum. Presumably, the new deal simply guarantees that total sum.


Aron Winter



“Still at this moment, we’re trying to let him sign, but at the end if it is impossible, then we have to move forward,” freshman boss Aron Winter said.
Will De Rosario be playing on Saturday?
“Why not? He’s our player. He’s under contract. And I don’t see the reason why he shouldn’t play,” Winter said.


Even MLS


“We believe that the contract that he is under is the appropriate contract for him."

DeRo


“I have to just focus on playing and forget about all the promises, the empty promises, and things said that weren’t fulfilled.”

What were the promises?

[Beach_Red]

When a guy who is worth $400k is asking for $1.5M, why exactly is that the club's fault?

Well then it's the club's fault for offering him $600k - that's sort of Roogesy's point here, the club hasn't stuck to a single position through all this, they've had too many people (Mo, Anselmi and now Winter - has Mariner said anything?) speaking publicly and saying different things.

It would be a lot easier to support the management of TFC if they'd had a firm stance from the beginning and if all their people were on the same page.

And when they're trying to sell tickets and merchandise the "worth" of a player isn't so easy to determine. When the trade for DeRo first happened (or he was reassigned here by the league as many suspect) it was clear that a local boy was worth more to Toronto than to Houston. And he's certainly getting the team press.

But in the end, it doesn't matter to the team if they seem unable to get this sorted out - it'll go away, DeRo's contract will run out no matter how they handle it.

[Roogsy]

We need to trade him or find a better replacement for him.


We're all ears.

[OurGame]

I sincerely feel bad for Dero .. it's a strange thing.. but think about any detractors ? he has put in hard work for many years .. this is not europe it's the MLS .. He has been a poster boy that should be rewarded especially now in his hometown with those cashcows mlse .. which all of u dump your money into .. reward the mother fucker .. YOU are dead wrong period if you think he doesn't deserve to be over a mil$ there already is a million on the payroll .. I love jdg fyi but dero should be paid ..

cheque signing was wrong yes / funny but wrong

[Pookie]

All ears? Good to see you are coming around to the idea of fielding trade offers

[Roogsy]

All ears? Good to see you are coming around to the idea of fielding trade offers


If you had been paying attention, which from your posts appears not to be the case, I was never against it. In fact, at several points I said that it might be best if both parties went their separate ways. But don't let facts get in the way of your misleading portrayal of my position.

[Pookie]

I sincerely feel bad for Dero .. it's a strange thing.. but think about any detractors ? he has put in hard work for many years .. this is not europe it's the MLS .. He has been a poster boy that should be rewarded especially now in his hometown with those cashcows mlse .. which all of u dump your money into .. reward the mother fucker .. YOU are dead wrong period if you think he doesn't deserve to be over a mil$ there already is a million on the payroll .. I love jdg fyi but dero should be paid ..

cheque signing was wrong yes / funny but wrong

So what is Cunningham worth? 1M?

Casey?

Letoux?

MLS wants to avoid inflating the value of contracts based on bad financial decisions. Sort of like what happened to rookie salaries in the NHL when Ottawa signed Daigle to a big deal. MLS isn't exactly rolling in cash.

[Chevy]

If you had been paying attention, which from your posts appears not to be the case, I was never against it. In fact, at several points I said that it might be best if both parties went their separate ways. But don't let facts get in the way of your misleading portrayal of my position.

Holy s**t, come down from the thin air of Mt. Roogsy and take a chill pill. :facepalm:

[OurGame]

So what is Cunningham worth? 1M?

Casey?

Letoux?

MLS wants to avoid inflating the value of contracts based on bad financial decisions. Sort of like what happened to rookie salaries in the NHL when Ottawa signed Daigle to a big deal. MLS isn't exactly rolling in cash.

mls titles
hometown hero in cashcow market
think about it
every situation is different

[Whoop]

Roogsy has always maintained he has no problem with trading DeRo but he's of the position that there is no one in the league better out there that would be traded back to TFC.

With that I can agree.

Which is why DeRo is putting pressure on the club. He figures the team would be worse off without him. And initially that would be the case.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy has always maintained he has no problem with trading DeRo but he's of the position that there is no one in the league better out there that would be traded back to TFC.

With that I can agree.

Which is why DeRo is putting pressure on the club. He figures the team would be worse off without him. And initially that would be the case.


Thanks Vic.

And just to clarify, I don't believe there is anyone in the league better than him that would a) want to be traded to Toronto and b) play at DeRo's salary or even less. I am under no delusion that there aren't better players. However, in this particular case, what trade actually makes sense for Toronto other than to completely submit to the rebuilding cause, rid all big contracts and veteran players and simply go young and cheap and develop for a couple of years?

IF Toronto wants to be competitive this year, DeRo is our best option. But having him unhappy is a highly inefficient use of our resources. We might as well go the young and cheap route and let him play elsewhere.

[Whoop]

I've just disagreed with Roogsy how DeRo has handled it. :lol:

[Pookie]

The unspoken question is whether the team, as a cohesive functioning unit, would be better without the drama.

Is DeRo + Drama a better combination than no DeRo and a team playing together? Very subjective question that we can never agree on.

As for replacements, the Nkufo and Stevanovic rumours suggest that it isn't impossible.

[DangerRed]

Thank god the offseason is over in two days and we can go on to beating a new dead horse every week.

[Pookie]

mls titles
hometown hero in cashcow market
think about it
every situation is different

Cunningham has trophies too.

In a world in which agents compare the value for players, every situation is NOT different. Every deal affects the one after it.

[Chevy]

There are fair arguments on both sides of the salary debate. The expensive Mista/JGD camp and the cheap Wondo/Cunny/Nana camp, to summarize. This has been batted back and forth for months, but where we keep ending up is around the $400k range, which is appropriate for the player.

The result of this interaction of supply and demand is supported by statements from both the club and the league. Further support can be derived from the lack of evidece that other teams (anywhere!) would pay the player more than his current salary. Absolutely not one shred of tangible evidence in the last decade that would indicate the player is worth what he thinks.

[P-NUTZ]

wow this is REALLY juicy, and extremely sad.

Dero is an idiot who is a really good player.
I do like him though, think he's important to the team and is worth about $$750 -$850k a year IMO.
But he and his people fucked it right up and didn't do a good job of his contract and he got screwed by a crim'o'nal. Promises mean nothing and he is paying for poor self management, and is now running around toronto, scotland and wherever bitching and whining and pretending to sign cheques in games because he didn't have due diligence in handling his business properly the first time.

JDG did and is laughing all the way to the bank.

It's your fault dero - you're an awesome player, but stop acting like a punk kid when it's your own fault.

My opinion.

Overall this situation is a real shame.
:(

[Waggy]

Roogsy has always maintained he has no problem with trading DeRo but he's of the position that there is no one in the league better out there that would be traded back to TFC.

With that I can agree.

Which is why DeRo is putting pressure on the club. He figures the team would be worse off without him. And initially that would be the case.


No 1, fine, what about 2 or 3? What about 1 established player a young player and a draft pick? What if he's moved for several young players and his contract is turned into a legit DP? There's plenty of ways to move Dero and upgrade the team. Besides, as has been mentioned a few times, this is a rebuilding year for TFC. Who cares if the production suffers a bit this year, I'd rather people who have long term futures with the club get the experience and playing time to Winter can assess what we have and what we need rather then having Dero as a band aid- and whining every time a reporter 'eggs' him on with a question.

As to the media in Toronto, yes they are tough and can be pains in the ass. At the same time, right now they're being accused of essentially trying to destroy Deros career, or at least his career in Toronto. Outside of how they dealt with Vince and Bosh after they left, that's completely unprecedented. I doubt very much that there is some huge anti-soccer conspiracy going through every media outlet in the city of Toronto. The reason those quotes were reported in the papers is because they are what we, the fans, are interested in. The reason they aren't spun in a positive light is because Dero has lost the benefit of the doubt by his actions over this past winter.

[Roogsy]

No 1, fine, what about 2 or 3? What about 1 established player a young player and a draft pick? What if he's moved for several young players and his contract is turned into a legit DP? There's plenty of ways to move Dero and upgrade the team.

I don't disagree. But then the question has to be asked, why then didn't TFC simply allow DeRo to go to Celtic and get some money back in return not to mention lots of room under the cap to go out and get 2, 3, 4 or even 5 good young prospects?

[Pachuco]

The unspoken question is whether the team, as a cohesive functioning unit, would be better without the drama.

Is DeRo + Drama a better combination than no DeRo and a team playing together? Very subjective question that we can never agree on.

As for replacements, the Nkufo and Stevanovic rumours suggest that it isn't impossible.

There was drama long before Dero got here and there may or may not be drama after Dero is gone. Looks like Winter atleast may be trying to turn the ship. The thing is, you are blaming Dero for the drama, and are assuming Dero is the only source of drama. I have no idea what bubble you've been under but even Danny fucking Dichio was drama on this team.

Oh, and please explain to me at what point the team hasn't "Played togeter" because of Dero's drama, and his drama alone?

[Beach_Red]

I don't disagree. But then the question has to be asked, why then didn't TFC simply allow DeRo to go to Celtic and get some money back in return not to mention lots of room under the cap to go out and get 2, 3, 4 or even 5 good young prospects?

Are you saying there was an offer and TFC turned it down? And sorry if I missed it, there's been a lot to keep up with here ;).

[Chevy]

Are you saying there was an offer and TFC turned it down? And sorry if I missed it, there's been a lot to keep up with here ;).

There was no offer, only insinuation from the player that there was.

Regardless, Celtic wasn't going to shell out a transfer fee plus a million bucks in salary for bench depth in a league where the average wage is around $350k. Please.

[Roogsy]

There was drama long before Dero got here and there may or may not be drama after Dero is gone. Looks like Winter atleast may be trying to turn the ship. The thing is, you are blaming Dero for the drama, and are assuming Dero is the only source of drama. I have no idea what bubble you've been under but even Danny fucking Dichio was drama on this team.

Oh, and please explain to me at what point the team hasn't "Played togeter" because of Dero's drama, and his drama alone?

October 24, 2009.

NYRB 5 - Toronto FC 0

It is obvious that way back then, everyone knew DeRo was going to pretend to sign a cheque in public a year later and was going to train at Celtic during the off-season 15 months later. The team rebelled. A real captain would have put on the keeper's gloves and kept all the goals out of the net.

[Waggy]

I don't disagree. But then the question has to be asked, why then didn't TFC simply allow DeRo to go to Celtic and get some money back in return not to mention lots of room under the cap to go out and get 2, 3, 4 or even 5 good young prospects?

Like Beach said, do we know that was a real option? Also don't forget that at that moment TFC didn't have a GM as yet, I'm sure MLSE would not have looked favorably on an interim guy making that sort of move. Plus there are other optics to think about, letting the clubs captain walk away for nothing but cap space is not something that'd go over well in this city methinks. If you're right about Dero though then he still has plenty of value within MLS. I have faith in Winter to find the right deal out there. I just hope he makes it. I'm sick of hearing about this, I'm sick of talking/thinking about this. I'm sick of Dero. I just want him gone at this point.

[rocker]

. I'm sick of hearing about this, I'm sick of talking/thinking about this. I'm sick of Dero. I just want him gone at this point.

Me too. We lost games with him, we'll lose games without him. He ain't no saviour. Winter and Mariner are smart enough to figure out what to do without him. By 2012 we'd be back on track.

[OurGame]

There are ways for an organization to make the face of TFC happy ..

I saw with my own two eyes and heard with my own ears Paul Bierne promising Danny D a job after he hangs em up.. all xoxo you are the man ..
at the end of year xmas party 07
players aren't just meat / ask the NFL

[Pachuco]

Me too. We lost games with him, we'll lose games without him. He ain't no saviour. Winter and Mariner are smart enough to figure out what to do without him. By 2012 we'd be back on track.

L.A has lost games with Donovan. New York lost a playoffs game with Marquez. I think they should get rid of them as well. Useless twats.

[mmmikey]

this whole DeRo topic is overly complicated.

It comes down to one thing. No one player is more important than the team. The Captain should know this especially. Athletes all over the sports industry are taught how to answer potentially disruptive questions with non-inflammatory platitudes about just wanting to help the team, and focus on that. DeRo elected not to. I don't care how much goal production he can potentially give us this year, it does not make him more important than the team.

After being a Philly fan through the T. Owens days, I don't believe in any player bringing his contract issues into the field of play should be tolerated.

And here is a followup question (with an a-hole slant): Hey DeRo, u realize this is different front office? This is like not trusting your new girlfriend cause your last one cheated on you. It's not fair to her.

[Roogsy]

Like Beach said, do we know that was a real option? Also don't forget that at that moment TFC didn't have a GM as yet, I'm sure MLSE would not have looked favorably on an interim guy making that sort of move. Plus there are other optics to think about, letting the clubs captain walk away for nothing but cap space is not something that'd go over well in this city methinks. If you're right about Dero though then he still has plenty of value within MLS. I have faith in Winter to find the right deal out there. I just hope he makes it. I'm sick of hearing about this, I'm sick of talking/thinking about this. I'm sick of Dero. I just want him gone at this point.

Your timeline is all mixed up. Winter came on board while DeRo was in Scotland and was in full control and authority to make a decision on this when the Celtic opportunity was finally made available. Celtic were interested in opening discussions with TFC for a loan deal. TFC (ie. Winter) closed the door immediately and did not want to discuss this option at all so we don't know what Celtic would have offered, therefore there was no "interim" GM making the call. So if he wouldn't let DeRo loan at Celtic, what makes you think he would even look in MLS?

As for being sick of talking about it, I don't quite understand why people say this type of stuff. Nobody is forcing you to discuss this topic. There is a multitude of threads discussing other TFC subjects and even an Off Topic section.

[Roogsy]

I saw with my own two eyes and heard with my own ears Paul Bierne promising Danny D a job after he hangs em up.

I realize Danny is loved and DeRo is not but I don't quite get how TFC screwing Danny (legally) illicits the reaction it did from the fans but other players (Cann/Dero) can take a hike?

[TFC/Everton]

MLSE can't cave to his demands. They have 4 pro sports teams, Dero cant, while under contract, demand more money and get it. It would be a poor business practice for MLSE.

[Waggy]

Your timeline is all mixed up. Winter came on board while DeRo was in Scotland and was in full control and authority to make a decision on this when the Celtic opportunity was finally made available. Celtic were interested in opening discussions with TFC for a loan deal. TFC (ie. Winter) closed the door immediately and did not want to discuss this option at all so we don't know what Celtic would have offered, therefore there was no "interim" GM making the call. So if he wouldn't let DeRo loan at Celtic, what makes you think he would even look in MLS?

As for being sick of talking about it, I don't quite understand why people say this type of stuff. Nobody is forcing you to discuss this topic. There is a multitude of threads discussing other TFC subjects and even an Off Topic section.

As someone who cares about Toronto FC, how can I ignore such a huge issue around the club? That's an unreasonable statement. This isn't a minute details only the most hardcore of hardcore fans would care type of issue. Dero's our captain, the first game is on Saturday, and he's giving quotes about how unhappy he is still. And Winter is making comments that hint towards him being moved. This is big news, I can't do an ostrich impression no matter how much I'd like to.

When did Winter come in? Dero went around Boxing day as I recall, Winter came in a week or so after New Years right? You're saying on his first day he should have allowed the clubs captain to walk away for nothing? Before he even put roster names to faces?

[rocker]

L.A has lost games with Donovan. New York lost a playoffs game with Marquez. I think they should get rid of them as well. Useless twats.

You make a great point -- no player is greater than the team. Thanks!

[scooter]

mero is under contract and is not worth dp money

if he doesnt score at least 20 goals this year he is not even worth the 1/2 million he is getting now

yes mojo and co screwed up by giving mista big bucks and even deguzman is questionable as a dp but that doesnt mean dero should get it cant he see that

looks like the new regime will keep a tight ship and consider salary's very carefully due to the cap and the future of the team -- seems like a better course of action

if dero doesnt want to play then i guess he can jump ship

[Roogsy]

As someone who cares about Toronto FC, how can I ignore such a huge issue around the club? That's an unreasonable statement. This isn't a minute details only the most hardcore of hardcore fans would care type of issue. Dero's our captain, the first game is on Saturday, and he's giving quotes about how unhappy he is still. And Winter is making comments that hint towards him being moved. This is big news, I can't do an ostrich impression no matter how much I'd like to.

Ok then, so let's have a discussion about this without you whinging about how much you dislike having the discussion? LOL!


When did Winter come in? Dero went around Boxing day as I recall, Winter came in a week or so after New Years right? You're saying on his first day he should have allowed the clubs captain to walk away for nothing? Before he even put roster names to faces?

No, I am merely responding to your claim that there was an "interim" GM when the decision was made not to explore the Celtic opportunity. That is simply not the case. Yes, Winter had only been here a few weeks or possibly days before he was confronted with this decision, and he had to make it. But he had full authority and no "interim" tag when he made it. And unless he had his head in the sand, I am sure he was informed on the DeRo situation.

[Roogsy]

if dero doesnt want to play then i guess he can jump ship

Excellent. Tell TFC management not to pick up his option year.

[Roogsy]

You make a great point -- no player is greater than the team. Thanks!


Yes of course, that was the point he was making not that your initial point about "we're going to lose anyways" is just as ridiculous. :rolleyes:

[Roogsy]

MLSE can't cave to his demands. They have 4 pro sports teams, Dero cant, while under contract, demand more money and get it. It would be a poor business practice for MLSE.


Yep...let's back up MLSE on the way they run all their sports franchises!

[Beach_Red]

There was no offer, only insinuation from the player that there was.

Regardless, Celtic wasn't going to shell out a transfer fee plus a million bucks in salary for bench depth in a league where the average wage is around $350k. Please.

Yes, that's the point exactly. And that's when this should have ended (well, it should have ended long before but by then for sure).

DeRo's value, whatever it is, is less anywhere else. TFC know this, they should have ended this whole thing long ago. All they had to do was say, "We're not talking about the contract, it's signed." Why didn't they? Why did they keep making offers and talking about negotiating?

Why is this still going? How hard is it for ownership to tell a player - a player over 30 and under contract - that they aren't going to negotiate so play or retire?

[Roogsy]

Yes, that's the point exactly. And that's when this should have ended (well, it should have ended long before but by then for sure).

DeRo's value, whatever it is, is less anywhere else. TFC know this, they should have ended this whole thing long ago. All they had to do was say, "We're not talking about the contract, it's signed." Why didn't they? Why did they keep making offers and talking about negotiating?

Why is this still going? How hard is it for ownership to tell a player - a player over 30 and under contract - that they aren't going to negotiate so play or retire?

I would have respected this position more than what this team has done. With empty promises, teasers about renegotiations, half-hearted renegotiations etc.

If TFC said "this is the contract, play it or leave it" I would be happier about this situation than what they've done so far. But most people here aren't accepting that TFC want their cake and eat it too. DeRo's contract IS cheap relative speaking and they don't want to undo it. So they picked up the option, something DeRo did not want. He played his guaranteed portion. He did not want to enter the non-guaranteed portion of the agreement. If he would have said "I prefer to leave it" then at that point I would have rather they not picked up his option, made him a free agent and all these speculations about what he is or is not worth would have been answered.

[Whoop]

It's too bad this team doesn't have a Crash Davis.

I mean if you don't know how to say it, just be boring.

KeVca9MwDX8

[Waggy]

Ok then, so let's have a discussion about this without you whinging about how much you dislike having the discussion? LOL!



No, I am merely responding to your claim that there was an "interim" GM when the decision was made not to explore the Celtic opportunity. That is simply not the case. Yes, Winter had only been here a few weeks or possibly days before he was confronted with this decision, and he had to make it. But he had full authority and no "interim" tag when he made it. And unless he had his head in the sand, I am sure he was informed on the DeRo situation.

Fair enough. I stand by that though- that's a lot to ask of a brand new GM for any club. Though I do wish he had done it and saved us all a lot of headache. Again that assumes that 1) Celtic wanted Dero and 2) for the length and money which he would accept.

Also I didn't realize that on a message board I can't editorialize a little bit with my own feelings on the subject at hand at the end of a post. I know you're taking a beating today Roogs but that was a 1 sentence statement. To be more clear and less whiny: I hope they trade Dero and quickly. I don't want him signed for more money or long term, I don't want him around any of the younger, more impressionable players we have both on the big club and the academy and I don't want him being a distraction for his teammates or for the fans. I want to watch Toronto FC without disliking our captain.

Is that too much to ask? Right now, maybe it is. Does the whole situation mean I won't watch or support TFC? Obviously not. Does that mean I have to like what's going on? Again obviously not. Does any of that mean I can't express my displeasure at the situation on a message board?

[Roogsy]

I get the feeling TFC closed the door on the Celtic situation before DeRo could even explore a real negotiation with Celtic to find out what they'd pay him. That says TFC wants their captain here, with the team. That indicates that they place a value on him. If really truly he were as replaceable as people make him out to be, TFC were stupid not to offload him, get money (possibly, whatever that might have been) and free up cap space to bring in these magnificant and oh-so-available prospects that somehow would be magically available if DeRo weren't here (like somehow we can't get them WITH DeRo on the squad.)

For Winter to have made that decision, he would have already had to make up his mind about whether he wanted DeRo on TFC. His closing the door to even discussions on this topic is an indication that his mind was made up because otherwise they would have at least looked at "what can we get for him?" and not been obligated if they didn't like the deal. They didn't even get that far. Therefore, whether Celtic would have offered enough to make both TFC and DeRo happy we will never know, but the fact that TFC weren't even willing to explore this should tell you that they want him on this team. So get used to it, he will be on TFC this season and if he has another good year, next season as well and the drama will continue unless TFC and DeRo can come to a satisfactory arrangement.

[Beach_Red]

Fair enough. I stand by that though- that's a lot to ask of a brand new GM for any club.


It's only too much to ask if ownership hasn't been clear to the new GM about how much they will back him and he has to feel his way through and figure it out.

If this process was taken further I think we'd find all kinds of promises made to all kinds of people and it would be hard to get a definitive statement from anyone all the way to the "top" whatever that is.

[OurGame]

I take it TFC is on way to Vancouver .. Lets just make sure we get to dero right away and keep on it.. Either he is happy and on board or lets get down to it ..

[Waggy]

Apparently Freddie Ljunberg is the highest paid player in Scotland right now, earning 800 000 pounds a year. Dero allegedly is asking for almost the same from TFC. Realistically he wasn't getting an offer anywhere near Freddie money from Celtic (remember how much more prized Freddie was then Dero), who's to say Dero would have even accepted a move? Remember this whole trial/training thing was done only as a leverage ploy. But whatever, we're speculating on speculations and none of this changes the fact that Dero is still not only a member but the captain of Toronto FC, and he has to start acting like it. Whether or not he intends to or will be playing for TFC long term, I'd assume he doesn't want to permanently alienate the majority of soccer fans in his home town. Since day one of this whole debacle we've been saying how he clearly needs some better PR people, clearly he hasn't taken the advise.

[OurGame]

I just think he as a hometown boy / mls legend .. team needs him .. figure out a goddamm way to make him happy tfc/mlse.. lord knows u know how to fuck up a sports team .. use some common player management skills bloody hell..

or just drag this shit into the 1/2 of the season and pay for it in other ways

[Waggy]

I just think he as a hometown boy / mls legend .. team needs him .. figure out a goddamm way to make him happy tfc/mlse.. lord knows u know how to fuck up a sports team .. use some common player management skills bloody hell..

or just drag this shit into the 1/2 of the season and pay for it in other ways

MLS have said they will not allow Dero to become a DP. Dero has said he will only be happy with DP status, and turned down 600k a year. What else would you like TFC to do about it?

[P-NUTZ]

advise him to get a better agent.

[OurGame]

MLS have said they will not allow Dero to become a DP. Dero has said he will only be happy with DP status, and turned down 600k a year. What else would you like TFC to do about it?


I guess trade his ass or park it then >>

[TFCRegina]

UNLEASH THE Roogsy!

[Roogsy]

MLS have said they will not allow Dero to become a DP. Dero has said he will only be happy with DP status, and turned down 600k a year. What else would you like TFC to do about it?

I'd try to give him a 600k a year contract but guarantee it for a period that makes it worthwhile. Maybe a 4 year guaranteed deal? That's job security (answer the question about risks to his career) and at a salary that MLS could not object to. Better than getting a million dollar contract for one year and then not knowing if you will ever have another one again.

[Chevy]

I'd try to give him a 600k a year contract but guarantee it for a period that makes it worthwhile. Maybe a 4 year guaranteed deal? That's job security (answer the question about risks to his career) and at a salary that MLS could not object to. Better than getting a million dollar contract for one year and then not knowing if you will ever have another one again.

You're friggin' pots and pans.

[OurGame]

I'd try to give him a 600k a year contract but guarantee it for a period that makes it worthwhile. Maybe a 4 year guaranteed deal? That's job security (answer the question about risks to his career) and at a salary that MLS could not object to. Better than getting a million dollar contract for one year and then not knowing if you will ever have another one again.

actually a great idea..
would work I bet

[backbeat]

I'd try to give him a 600k a year contract but guarantee it for a period that makes it worthwhile. Maybe a 4 year guaranteed deal? That's job security (answer the question about risks to his career) and at a salary that MLS could not object to. Better than getting a million dollar contract for one year and then not knowing if you will ever have another one again.

maybe 2 years...max - otherwise you're taking a lot out of the cap space for the final 2 years of 4 for someone who will be 35 and 36 years old - way too risky

[Roogsy]

maybe 2 years...max - otherwise you're taking a lot out of the cap space for the final 2 years of 4 for someone who will be 36 and 37 years old - way too risky

You're a year ahead. He is 32 right now and will be 33 this year so his contract will be for ages 33 to 36.

Anyways, it was just an idea. When you're at an impasse, you have to think outside the box. Besides if his career starts winding down at 34 or 35 (which for a guy who has taken care of himself like DeRo is not a given) you can always buy him out in the final year(s).

If you want to make it for 2 years then DeRo's position has been clear, make him a DP with a DP salary. Which I think is a better option for TFC (especially for our cap space) but one that doesn't seem attractive to the league.

[Whoop]

I've said in the past, why not just guarantee the final two years of his contract?

Which I think is what TFC is offering to do.



The team’s director of player development, Paul Mariner, said he’d sent an offer sheet to De Rosario and his U.K.-based agent, David Baldwin, on Tuesday night. It was the same offer sheet that the team sent weeks ago when they were training in Turkey.
According to Mariner, it represents “more guaranteed money.” That’s not to be confused with “more money”. De Rosario has an incentivized contract that maxes him out at around $500,000 per annum. Presumably, the new deal simply guarantees that total sum.

[backbeat]

You're a year ahead. He is 32 right now and will be 33 this year so his contract will be for ages 33 to 36.

Anyways, it was just an idea. When you're at an impasse, you have to think outside the box. Besides if his career starts winding down (which for a guy who has taken care of himself like DeRo is not a given) you can always buy him out in the final year(s).

If you want to make it for 2 years than DeRo's position has been clear, make him a DP with a DP salary. Which I think is a better option for TFC (especially for our cap space) but one that doens't seem attractive to the league.

yes i saw that and edited - i think TFC would make him a DP, it's MLS that won't from what i understand.

[Alonso]

I realize Danny is loved and DeRo is not but I don't quite get how TFC screwing Danny (legally) illicits the reaction it did from the fans but other players (Cann/Dero) can take a hike?

Because Danny is a consumate proffesional, who honoured his contracts and never uttered any negative bullshit in public or in the locker room (assumption).

That would endear any player to the fans. Danny has the respect of the public, and it doesn't look like Dero ever will because of the way he behaves.

[TFCRegina]

Because Danny is a consumate proffesional, who honoured his contracts and never uttered any negative bullshit in public or in the locker room (assumption).

That would endear any player to the fans. Danny has the respect of the public, and it doesn't look like Dero ever will because of the way he behaves.

I have never believed De Ro has been the problem in the dressing room, even when the cheque signing incident went on.

If he was a real problem in the dressing room, they would have stripped him of that captaincy.

De Ro has never failed to work hard when on the pitch for this club. His actions with respect to off-field issues have been somewhat deplorable, but he has always given 100% regardless of the shit going on with his contract.

I fail to see how De Ro is any less professional than Dichio.

The only difference is Dichio hid his feelings. In Canada, we admire that (it's a british thing), but quite frankly I admire De Rosario for having stones and personality.

[Alonso]

I have never believed De Ro has been the problem in the dressing room, even when the cheque signing incident went on.

If he was a real problem in the dressing room, they would have stripped him of that captaincy.

De Ro has never failed to work hard when on the pitch for this club. His actions with respect to off-field issues have been somewhat deplorable, but he has always given 100% regardless of the shit going on with his contract.

I fail to see how De Ro is any less professional than Dichio.:picard:

The only difference is Dichio hid his feelings. In Canada, we admire that (it's a british thing), but quite frankly I admire De Rosario for having stones and personality.

I never said any of this, and didn't imply that DeRo was a bad influence in the locker room. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if he was.

And if you don't think airing dirty laundry in public is unproffesional, 2 days before the season opener, I have no idea what to say to you. You don't think cheque signing after goals is unproffesional? I could go on... I just erased half my post that had many more examples, but whats the point? You've clearly got your DeRo shaded glasses on.

[Roogsy]

I never said any of this, and didn't imply that DeRo was a bad influence in the locker room. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if he was.

And if you don't think airing dirty laundry in public is unproffesional, 2 days before the season opener, I have no idea what to say to you. You don't think cheque signing after goals is unproffesional? I could go on... I just erased half my post that had many more examples, but whats the point? You've clearly got your DeRo shaded glasses on.


So let me follow your line of reasoning: Screwing a player over is ok when the player is not "professional" about it. If he is professional about, then it's wrong?

[TFCRegina]

I never said any of this, and didn't imply that DeRo was a bad influence in the locker room. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if he was.

And if you don't think airing dirty laundry in public is unproffesional, 2 days before the season opener, I have no idea what to say to you. You don't think cheque signing after goals is unproffesional? I could go on... I just erased half my post that had many more examples, but whats the point? You've clearly got your DeRo shaded glasses on.

Yeah, you definitely never said De Ro was a bad influence in the dressing room.

I quote:


Danny is a consumate proffesional, who honoured his contracts and never uttered any negative bullshit in public or in the locker room (assumption)

Since the player we're comparing Dichio to is De Ro, you have IMPLICITLY stated that De Rosario is a negative influence in the dressing room.

Is De Ro any less professional than any player who celebrates after a goal? Cheque signing or not, he celebrated. He also scored that game for us...once, I can't remember if he scored the 2nd one for us, but I think he did. Pissed off as he was, he went out and played his heart out. If that's not professionalism I don't know what is.

He expresses his feelings. Get the fuck over it. I admire his willingness to speak out in a regime that has been anything but open and willing to talk to the public.

Not everyone shuts their mouth and takes it up the ass from the club.

[Alonso]

So let me follow your line of reasoning: Screwing a player over is ok when the player is not "professional" about it. If he is professional about, then it's wrong?


No. My logic is this:

Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

No one will stand up and back a whiny bitch.

If people respect you, they will stand up for you when it's needed.

[TFCRegina]

No. My logic is this:

Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

No one will stand up and back a whiny bitch.

If people respect you, they will stand up for you when it's needed.

And if he doesn't express need for it, people can't back him up.

Interesting. So you're for players complaining in public about their contracts?

[Alonso]

Yeah, you definitely never said De Ro was a bad influence in the dressing room.

I quote:



Since the player we're comparing Dichio to is De Ro, you have IMPLICITLY stated that De Rosario is a negative influence in the dressing room.

Is De Ro any less professional than any player who celebrates after a goal? Cheque signing or not, he celebrated. He also scored that game for us...once, I can't remember if he scored the 2nd one for us, but I think he did. Pissed off as he was, he went out and played his heart out. If that's not professionalism I don't know what is.

He expresses his feelings. Get the fuck over it. I admire his willingness to speak out in a regime that has been anything but open and willing to talk to the public.

Not everyone shuts their mouth and takes it up the ass from the club.


Wow

Danny is a respected man.

Dero is not.

The reasons for this are obvious.

[Roogsy]

Couldn't have said it better myself. This whole portrayal of what is "professional" is a bunch of bullshit. To me the ultimate professional is someone who signs a contract and then goes out and delivers it or even better goes beyond what was expected, especially under adversity. That's what DeRo has done.

Whatever this definition of "professional" that keeps getting thrown around on this board, it has nothing to do with the pitch, and that is all I care about.

[OurGame]

Wow

Danny is a respected man.

Dero is not.

The reasons for this are obvious.



Honestly Danny got some goals etc .. But why would he be any more respected .. i mean really ..
Danny smanny i think .. I enjoyed him and all but come on

[Alonso]

And if he doesn't express need for it, people can't back him up.

Interesting. So you're for players complaining in public about their contracts?

Wow

Clearly your being facetious.

[Roogsy]

No. My logic is this:

Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

No one will stand up and back a whiny bitch.

If people respect you, they will stand up for you when it's needed.

To each his own I suppose. This logic of yours won't help you build a winning team though...it's the kind of thinking that has given us the Toronto Maple Leafs.

[Chevy]

Well, if people can speculate about these fantastic promises that were made to the player, then others can speculate that he's a negative influence in the dressing room (the fact that there is far more evidence to support the latter is another story)

Let's forget the locker room for a second. The player has been a negative influence on the pitch. Anyone that would stop in the middle of a crucial game to focus on personal gain is by definition a negative influence.

Although some here are blinded by the sun that is DeRo, most supporters get this.

[Alonso]

Couldn't have said it better myself. This whole portrayal of what is "professional" is a bunch of bullshit. To me the ultimate professional is someone who signs a contract and then goes out and delivers it or even better goes beyond what was expected, especially under adversity. That's what DeRo has done.

Whatever this definition of "professional" that keeps getting thrown around on this board, it has nothing to do with the pitch, and that is all I care about.

Agreed.

And how a player handles themselves as a person is the icing on the cake that will endear them to the public, and garner respect.

[Gazza]

Jaded sports fans need to make heroes and villains. When all that should really matter is their production on the field.

Dichio might kick puppies and not recycle for all we really know about the guy.

[Roogsy]

Agreed.

And how a player handles themselves as a person is the icing on the cake that will endear them to the public, and garner respect.

Well...to continue the metaphor, it would appear around here the icing is the more important part. We don't want winners, we want elite professional athletes at the top of their game who aren't full of themselves. Good luck with that. :lol:

[Chevy]

Well...to continue the metaphor, it would appear around here the icing is the more important part. We don't want winners, we want elite professional athletes at the top of their game who aren't full of themselves. Good luck with that. :lol:

On the flipside, we don't want self-centred, whiny arseholes who demand three times what they are worth. Good luck trying to get paid a million a year for that.

Just sayin'

[Alonso]

^^^ Yeah

And philosopher kings for politicians. lol

[Whoop]

We don't want winners, we want elite professional athletes at the top of their game who aren't full of themselves. Good luck with that. :lol:

But they do exist.


Though to be fair to DeRo, I think TFC gave him the armband to placate him at the time.

I mean we discussed it back then when he was named captain, ad nauseam, that DeRo essentially was the captain by default as there was a leadership void on the team.

And as I said in the past, the team needs/needed a cultural change.

Even if the FO is shit/being idiots/etc the players have a choice either to just go out, stick together, and play or add fuel to the fire.

And to be fair to the FO, it looks like they're trying to change things around.

[Brooker]

On the flipside, we don't want self-centred, whiny arseholes who demand three times what they are worth. Good luck trying to get paid a million a year for that.

Just sayin'

BOOM!

[v00d00daddy]

I wish one side would just come out and say one of the following:

1-Pay me more or I'm not playing

or

2-Play under your contract or get the fuck out

This compromise shit is not worth it.

[OurGame]

I wish one side would just come out and say one of the following:

1-Pay me more or I'm not playing

or

2-Play under your contract or get the fuck out

This compromise shit is not worth it.


Now that is exactly what should happen ...
god that would be nice

[Roogsy]

But they do exist.

Vic...are we back to citing examples of the exception or the rule?

TFC players are pretty accessible to all of us and in person they seem pretty average. But I have seen them at parties and at clubs and believe me, they're pretty full of themselves...quite a few of them. Which boggles my mind considering their salaries are nothing to write home about.

It gets even worse when you get up to the millionaires of the NHL and NBA etc.

So yeah, good guys do exist. Guys that live by old codes that have long since passed away. Do you think they're the majority? Cause if that is what we're holding our breaths for to come to TFC, make sure your will is written up.

[Lizzy]

I'd try to give him a 600k a year contract but guarantee it for a period that makes it worthwhile. Maybe a 4 year guaranteed deal? That's job security (answer the question about risks to his career) and at a salary that MLS could not object to. Better than getting a million dollar contract for one year and then not knowing if you will ever have another one again.


You're friggin' pots and pans.

No kidding. We are going to give a guy like DeRo 4 years guaranteed so he can pull this shit after 2011 or 2012. He'll say he's outperformed his contract or we will have signed a DP or three making more and he'll pull another stunt during a playoff push.

[Roogsy]

No kidding. We are going to give a guy like DeRo 4 years guaranteed so he can pull this shit after 2011 or 2012. He'll say he's outperformed his contract or we will have signed a DP or three making more and he'll pull another stunt during a playoff push.


Jesus...I threw an idea out there to get around the DP issue. It was just that, an idea. Have a better idea about how to placate the man?

[OurGame]

Clearly TFC want this to fester !!! and it will
u could see the pain on Dero's face

[Wull]

Jesus...I threw an idea out there to get around the DP issue. It was just that, an idea. Have a better idea about how to placate the man?

I don't think there is any placating him apart from matching JDG's salary which the league won't allow and everyone else thinks would be nucking futs.

Yes, he's our best player, our biggest scoring threat and the most likely to create something but we can't overpay two players to that extent though he does deserve it more than jdg based on performances in a TFC shirt

[Whoop]

Vic...are we back to citing examples of the exception or the rule?

TFC players are pretty accessible to all of us and in person they seem pretty average. But I have seen them at parties and at clubs and believe me, they're pretty full of themselves...quite a few of them. Which boggles my mind considering their salaries are nothing to write home about.

It gets even worse when you get up to the millionaires of the NHL and NBA etc.

So yeah, good guys do exist. Guys that live by old codes that have long since passed away. Do you think they're the majority? Cause if that is what we're holding our breaths for to come to TFC, make sure your will is written up.

Maybe it's all in the company you keep. :lol:

But I'm not talking about how guys act at clubs and parties. Depending on the type of club and party it is, you can find a number of assholes and guys full of themselves without them being athletes.

I'm just talking in a team setting and how guys act on the field, in the room, with the media and the general public.

And yes I know guys who make shit tonnes of money who aren't full of themselves. But like I said I guess it's all in the company you keep. :lol:

I'm of the belief that a lot of those guys aren't much different than the general population when it comes to douchebaggery. Which I guess you could argue if they're like the general population (though more talented in sporting endeavours) why do people get up in arms?

[Roogsy]

Because they elevate them to a level that is unreasonable and hard to live up to.

People make athletes to be more than what they are, which is simply human. Many of them humans that have lived sheltered, coddled lives.

And then they want these people who have lived in a different bubble than you or I to behave in a manner which we demand lives up to our expectations.

We do it to ourselves. We expect things that we shouldn't expect in the first place. There is only one thing I demand from the athletes that I follow...performance. I don't care about anything else.

[Whoop]

Roogs it was a rhetorical question. LOL

I have no disagreement about performance but as it's being pointed out, while an individual may perform (or not), does his actions off the field affect the product on the field and the cohesiveness of the unit?

That's where the subjective part comes into play.

[Roogsy]

It may. At times. But it's very hard to decipher whether there is a complete correlation if any. Certainly not enough evidence for anyone to make a conclusive statement. The variables that go into whether a team finds cohesion runs a wide gamut. Contract disputes are so common I would submit to you that more often than not, they don't affect cohesion, certainly not to a significant level and certainly not more than many other more important variables.

TFC has been such a shit show it's easy to point to DeRo's unhappiness and say "there is your problem". In fact, too easy. It's a symptom not the underlying cause. Remove the symptom and you would still have the underlying cause.

[tim90]

4 year 700 k a year

[TFCRegina]

Wow

Danny is a respected man.

Dero is not.

The reasons for this are obvious.

And have nothing to do with his professionalism.

De Rosario is paid to play football, not to be a PR man for the club.

His actual job is Professional Footballer, in case you've forgotten.

De Ro has always left his best play on the pitch.

[v00d00daddy]

How's this for a compromise?

q: What does DeRo want?
a: More money AND more security (guaranteed contract+length)

q: What does TFC want?
a: DeRo to continue playing at the previously agreed contract.

So.......

Both sides make concessions and

DeRo gets to have one or the other. Money or security

TFC should offer option A and option B

A-3-4 year cap max non dp salary. Guaranteed.
B A year by year 1.2 million dollar contract-Non guaranteed. Revocable at any time by TFC

Thoughts?

[TFCRegina]

^ Or he could have DP money, with half of it Guaranteed...

[JackFly]

How's this for a compromise?

q: What does DeRo want?
a: More money AND more security (guaranteed contract+length)

q: What does TFC want?
a: DeRo to continue playing at the previously agreed contract.

So.......

Both sides make concessions and

DeRo gets to have one or the other. Money or security

TFC should offer option A and option B

A-3-4 year cap max non dp salary. Guaranteed.
B A year by year 1.2 million dollar contract-Non guaranteed. Revocable at any time by TFC

Thoughts?

I say give him an incentive laden contract. Bust me 15 goals and the playoffs. Give him what he wants. Fall short give him what mngt. wants.

[Super Cereal]

4 year 700 k a year

And guaranteed cover of Toronto FC Media Guide amirite

[Roogsy]

How's this for a compromise?

q: What does DeRo want?
a: More money AND more security (guaranteed contract+length)

q: What does TFC want?
a: DeRo to continue playing at the previously agreed contract.

So.......

Both sides make concessions and

DeRo gets to have one or the other. Money or security

TFC should offer option A and option B

A-3-4 year cap max non dp salary. Guaranteed.
B A year by year 1.2 million dollar contract-Non guaranteed. Revocable at any time by TFC

Thoughts?


I've been saying something similar since page 50 of the old DeRo thread. LOL!

[Pookie]

^ suggestions TFC should offer a new contract really seem to overlook the fact that the contracts are not with TFC, they are with the League.

The League, as the single entity that controls contracts is responsible for managing the inflationary nature of those contracts in a league that doesn't turn a profit.

Simply put, what would happen immediately if DeRo got a $1.2M contract?

The agents for LeToux, Casey, and Cunnningham (and many others) would start to make noise. This is a league without a network TV deal that relies heavily on gate receipts. It would be a chain reaction of agents and players seeking money from a non-existent pool.

Other leagues experience massive inflation when an owner makes a bad financial decision on a contract. That contract is used by agents and arbitrators to drive the costs up. MLS is set up to protect itself, from itself. It needs protection as it doesn't make money and last time I checked, no one liked to pay for expensive tickets. Has that changed?

Like it or not, TFC is not at liberty to grant DeRo anything he wishes. All contracts have to be approved by the league.

This is DeRo's conundrum. He could pull a Nfuko and negotiate a release from his contract. Except, any team he goes to will need to final league approval on their contract and the league believes his current contract is "appropriate." In essence, he will go through a lot of risk to (maybe) get back to where he already is.

[Pookie]

As for comments about DeRo's attitude potentially affecting team play here is a fairly interesting timeline from last season:

March 27, 2010 - July 5th, 2010

TFC Record: 5-4-4
DeRo: 8 goals in 13 Appearances

July 6th - Mista signs as second DP

TFC Record from July 6 - Sept 14th: 2-6-3
DeRo: 1 Goal in 11 Appearances over a critical stretch of games

Sept 14th - Mo and Preki Fired

DeRo: scores 6 in 6 appearances

Does that point to a moody nature impacting team and individual performance?

[OurGame]

As for comments about DeRo's attitude potentially affecting team play here is a fairly interesting timeline from last season:

March 27, 2010 - July 5th, 2010

TFC Record: 5-4-4
DeRo: 8 goals in 13 Appearances

July 6th - Mista signs as second DP

TFC Record from July 6 - Sept 14th: 2-6-3
DeRo: 1 Goal in 11 Appearances over a critical stretch of games

Sept 14th - Mo and Preki Fired

DeRo: scores 6 in 6 appearances

Does that point to a moody nature impacting team and individual performance?

wowww

[torontocelt]

As for comments about DeRo's attitude potentially affecting team play here is a fairly interesting timeline from last season:

March 27, 2010 - July 5th, 2010

TFC Record: 5-4-4
DeRo: 8 goals in 13 Appearances

July 6th - Mista signs as second DP

TFC Record from July 6 - Sept 14th: 2-6-3
DeRo: 1 Goal in 11 Appearances over a critical stretch of games

Sept 14th - Mo and Preki Fired

DeRo: scores 6 in 6 appearances

Does that point to a moody nature impacting team and individual performance?

I don't really think that this is any kind of conclusive proof of the point you are trying to make. To expect him to continue the form he showed at the start of the year and the end of the year throughout the summer too is some what unrealistic. If DeRo was able to continue his early and late season stats throughout the summer he would have averaged about a hell of a lot of goals. What it does show however is that when DeRo doesn't score we don't seem to have other players who can.

[Chevy]

No kidding. We are going to give a guy like DeRo 4 years guaranteed so he can pull this shit after 2011 or 2012. He'll say he's outperformed his contract or we will have signed a DP or three making more and he'll pull another stunt during a playoff push.

+1. Logic is a bitch Lizzy, and does not have a place on planet DeRosario. You should know better. :)

[TFCRegina]

As for comments about DeRo's attitude potentially affecting team play here is a fairly interesting timeline from last season:

March 27, 2010 - July 5th, 2010

TFC Record: 5-4-4
DeRo: 8 goals in 13 Appearances

July 6th - Mista signs as second DP

TFC Record from July 6 - Sept 14th: 2-6-3
DeRo: 1 Goal in 11 Appearances over a critical stretch of games

Sept 14th - Mo and Preki Fired

DeRo: scores 6 in 6 appearances

Does that point to a moody nature impacting team and individual performance?

Correlation is not causation Pookie.

You seem to neglect the fact that over the period of July 6 to September 14th, Preki increasingly relied on a more and more defensive system in order to cover up for glaring weaknesses in the players he signed and that Sept 14th onward, with the exception of a single Champions League match, Nick Dasovic played a much more aggressive style of soccer and was going for wins, rather than coaching his players to not lose.

But hey, narratives that are out of context make for good stories when you're trying to pigeon hole a player as unprofessional and have no actual backing for that.

[Pookie]

I don't really think that this is any kind of conclusive proof of the point you are trying to make. To expect him to continue the form he showed at the start of the year and the end of the year throughout the summer too is some what unrealistic. If DeRo was able to continue his early and late season stats throughout the summer he would have averaged about a hell of a lot of goals. What it does show however is that when DeRo doesn't score we don't seem to have other players who can.

I'm not really trying to make a conclusion. I was reading comments about whether his "attitude" would affect his performance and in turn, does it have an impact on the team and wondered if there was anything to it.

There were 2 significant moves during the season which could have had an impact on his "mood". Bringing in a 2nd DP when he felt he should be one. That, in theory, would have a negative impact on his mood.

And the firing of the guy who supposedly screwed him, which would have a positive impact.

The "data" shows a correlation between the 2 events and his "performance." Performance went down after the negative one and up after the positive one.

That said I think one has to draw their own conclusions from it. Lots of other variables too and this is far from an air tight theory.

[Thomas]

:scarf:
Great site! I have been trying to keep up with reading all of this DeRo talk. My non educated guess is that the Winter system will end up (not right away, and will take some time) getting some more goals being distributed over a greater number of players. I also think that Winter's plan depends on a more collaborative playing approach, with more emphasis on passing. The problem with DeRo is that he hogs the ball far too much for this system to work effectively (hope I am wrong on that). DeRo had a signed contract (along with a fair wage in my opinion), that is in the hands of the league. Please forgive me for being so brazen, but our captain should shut up and play and start acting like a leader, or go sit on the bench. If he doesn't pull through with the goods....money, smarts and some resolve will find someone else to lead the team. I really hope that everything works out with DeRo, but enough is enough!

[TFCwestcan]

Gawd! there has been a lot of words on this topic. I hope it gets resolved soon!

[torontocelt]

I'm not really trying to make a conclusion. I was reading comments about whether his "attitude" would affect his performance and in turn, does it have an impact on the team and wondered if there was anything to it.

There were 2 significant moves during the season which could have had an impact on his "mood". Bringing in a 2nd DP when he felt he should be one. That, in theory, would have a negative impact on his mood.

And the firing of the guy who supposedly screwed him, which would have a positive impact.

The "data" shows a correlation between the 2 events and his "performance." Performance went down after the negative one and up after the positive one.

That said I think one has to draw their own conclusions from it. Lots of other variables too and this is far from an air tight theory.

Agreed, it is far from air tight and there are a million other variables that can be brought in to the equation. Ever since DeRo signed for the club he has performed season after season, that is good enough for me. Every player with a few exceptions has barren periods, most would in a team like TFC which offers little creatively. Of yet I have not seen another TFC player deliver in front of goal like he has. It doesn't make him a god but it does show he is one of the best if not thee best player we have had since TFC started.

[Whoop]

Too lazy to check.

What was TFC's record after JDG signed in the 2009 season?

[TFCRegina]

Too lazy to check.

What was TFC's record after JDG signed in the 2009 season?

A better question would be, what is TFC's record after July 6th, in every single year.

The sample size is larger at 4 as opposed to 2. In either case, there's not enough evidence to make any definitive statistical analysis on this.

[OurGame]

:scarf:
Great site! I have been trying to keep up with reading all of this DeRo talk. My non educated guess is that the Winter system will end up (not right away, and will take some time) getting some more goals being distributed over a greater number of players. I also think that Winter's plan depends on a more collaborative playing approach, with more emphasis on passing. The problem with DeRo is that he hogs the ball far too much for this system to work effectively (hope I am wrong on that). DeRo had a signed contract (along with a fair wage in my opinion), that is in the hands of the league. Please forgive me for being so brazen, but our captain should shut up and play and start acting like a leader, or go sit on the bench. If he doesn't pull through with the goods....money, smarts and some resolve will find someone else to lead the team. I really hope that everything works out with DeRo, but enough is enough!

Fair enough ..
no more commenting on this
i agree no fly

[BFin]

Just pay him 2 billion dollars so I don't have to read any more threads about him. Shite. Can't wait for the season to kick off so we don't have to see anymore of these threads.

[Pookie]

Too lazy to check.

What was TFC's record after JDG signed in the 2009 season?

1-2-2

They ended in the flat 5-0 embarassment in NY and missing the playoffs.

[Shakes McQueen]

If the club made an offer to guarantee all of the money on his existing contract, would that essentially be what some here think is a reasonable compromise?

DeRo gets the financial security of having the last two years of his existing contract guaranteed. I think signing him to another long-term contract right now would be daft, particularly if it included a ton of guaranteed money.

But if the league won't allow him to use a DP slot, and have stated publicly that they expect him to honour his current contract, what other options does DeRo have?

Even if TFC were to release him, it sounds like the league wouldn't allow any other club to try and make him a DP, even if they wanted to. So what's left? Testing the waters in Europe, at age 32? Would he get more than $500k guaranteed, or $600k there?

This just seems like an impossible situation to completely remedy. It seems like DeRo will be unhappy, no matter what the outcome is, unless the league has a substantial change of heart.

- Scott

[Pookie]

^ which is why I don't really understand the agent's end game in advising him.

Perhaps they didn't fully understand the influence of the league in setting the market value for its players (and their inherent desire to limit inflationary pressures).

The only thing that makes sense in this strategy is to conclude that the Celtic experiment was a high stakes gamble that they hoped would result in his transfer. That would explain why they were effectively willing to put his reputation "all in" as they felt it would be the only route out.

However, it doesn't explain why he would return to the MLS and effectively paint himself into a corner. Lots has been said about the media hounding him for a reply but he created that situation by suggesting he would sit out if he didn't become a DP. Since he hasn't, and the season is about to start, it is a natural follow up question. The only thing that makes sense here is that he was emotional and made a mistake.

[Roogsy]

I'm not really trying to make a conclusion. I was reading comments about whether his "attitude" would affect his performance and in turn, does it have an impact on the team and wondered if there was anything to it.

There were 2 significant moves during the season which could have had an impact on his "mood". Bringing in a 2nd DP when he felt he should be one. That, in theory, would have a negative impact on his mood.

And the firing of the guy who supposedly screwed him, which would have a positive impact.

The "data" shows a correlation between the 2 events and his "performance." Performance went down after the negative one and up after the positive one.

That said I think one has to draw their own conclusions from it. Lots of other variables too and this is far from an air tight theory.


Pookie even if your theory had some accuracy, would it not then stand to reason that aside from his contract issue, playing under Winter and the new system would make for a productive DeRo similar to the end of last season? In the end, is that not what you want?

[Pookie]

Pookie even if your theory had some accuracy, would it not then stand to reason that aside from his contract issue, playing under Winter and the new system would make for a productive DeRo similar to the end of last season? In the end, is that not what you want?

Yes, a productive (positive) DeRo is what any fan of the club would want. I've said on a few occassions that once he steps on to that pitch wearing red, I will applaud him. I'm not a "Garcia Booer" and firmly believe that BMO should be a hostile place for the VISITORS and not the Toronto Sports Fan Whipping Boy of the Day.

To your question, the timeline painted a picture of an event, his reaction and his subsequent production.

Events he viewed as negative (slap in the face DP signing), resulted in negative production.

Events he presumably viewed as positive (Liar Mo getting the axe and his choice of coach brought in), resulted in positive production.

So, does he view Winter and Co as positive or negative? He has said he likes the style. But he is also saying publicly that he is frustrated. So, if this little theory holds any water, his production will be a function of which emotion he chooses to let take hold. Sort of a toss up at this point.

[Roogsy]

Well...the "cheque writing" wasn't the beginning of his frustration, it was a demonstration of the frustration building over the year, and yet it was in the middle of a scoring streak. So like I said, even if your theory held any accuracy, it would appear as though DeRo can score when he's happy or upset.

[ManUtd4ever]

DeRo's a streaky player, and he has been unhappy about his contract situation ever since Mo initially acquired him. Based on the fact that he is coming off of back to back career years with TFC, I seriously doubt his current contract status will have a negative impact on his performance this season.

[Pookie]

^ Except from June through September ;)

Anyways, let's end it for now. Game coming on Saturday.

[TFCRegina]

^ Except from June through September ;)

Anyways, let's end it for now. Game coming on Saturday.

You've just described the team in it's history. If there's any case for anything, it's that TFC sucks June through September and De Ro happens to be a member of TFC.

[torontocelt]

^ Except from June through September ;)

Anyways, let's end it for now. Game coming on Saturday.

Shouldn't other players on the team be able to step up when dero is drawing blanks? Shouldn't the other players (too many to mention) not come under more criticism for there performances over the course of the entire season than trying to nail DeRo for not scoring during June to Sept when he chipped in with 14 goals anyway?

[Roogsy]

I don't get the "June to September" argument. Am I correct in assuming that what people are asking of DeRo and his THIRD highest contract on TFC is that he not only score half the team's goals but more than half, AND win the scoring title with at least 20 goals? Really?

[Pookie]

If you're not talking about it anymore clap your hands
*clap*clap*
If you're not talking about it anymore clap your hands
*clap*clap*
If you're not talking about it at all, cause it means sweet fuck all
and all that needs to be said has been said
*clap*clap*

[torontocelt]

I don't get the "June to September" argument. Am I correct in assuming that what people are asking of DeRo and his THIRD highest contract on TFC is that he not only score half the team's goals but more than half, AND win the scoring title with at least 20 goals? Really?

Yes, the fact that he didn't score throughout the entire season despite all of his goals means that he let the team down and the failure of TFC was all his fault.

[scooterTFC]

I don't get the "June to September" argument. Am I correct in assuming that what people are asking of DeRo and his THIRD highest contract on TFC is that he not only score half the team's goals but more than half, AND win the scoring title with at least 20 goals? Really?

Yeah I don't think his performance on the field has ever had much to do with his contract or relationship with managment. He's a streaky player, always has been. When he's hot he scores goals in bunches and when he's cold he doesn't. He's had at least a month long cold stretch almost every season that I've followed this league. When he's cold everyone criticizes his unconvential style, shot selection, 1 v 1 over-aggresiveness, passing etc... but when he's hot everyone celebrates when he scores miracle goals from 30 years out.

TFC's management was mess the last two seasons and he played well despite the turmoil behind the scenes. It seems like he actually handles the adversity better then some of other more seasoned players on the team (JDG seems to have really struggled in this environment) You could actually make the arguement that despite being a notoriously streaky player he actually had 2 of his most consisent seasons amidst the turmoil that was TFC.

[Pookie]

Yes, the fact that he didn't score throughout the entire season despite all of his goals means that he let the team down and the failure of TFC was all his fault.

Can't... help... getting sucked back in.....

Some of you guys are really funny.

On one hand, you argue that DeRo is this irreplaceable superstar that single handedly raised our team's collective performance to overachieve and that the team would be destitute without him.

And, when it was pointed out that the results suffered when he disappeared, you react by trying to lay the blame on the "inferior" players around him... inferior being your paraphrased words, not mine.

So, you credit him for all the wins and none of the losses.

----

My argument is simple. He's a talented player no question. Not the most talented player to ever play the game in the history of games past, present and future but a good player nonetheless. TFC roster is stronger, on paper, with him in the line up.

He brings baggage. No question.

Being Captain, his mood affects team performance. Attitude reflects leadership. We would be in a better position, as a team, to be led by someone else without the baggage. Team performance suffers when this baggage comes to the forefront.

If he can store the baggage, and that's his choice entirely, the situation improves for TFC.

[Roogsy]

Being Captain, his mood affects team performance. Attitude reflects leadership. We would be in a better position, as a team, to be led by someone else without the baggage. Team performance suffers when this baggage comes to the forefront.

Yeah but you (and others) are trying to make the connection that his scoring dry-streak was as a result of his mood and your only evidence is that he didn't score despite evidence that when his mood may not have been at his happiest he was still scoring. What evidence do you have that it was his mood that caused TFC's stumble mid-summer? Because if you have no evidence, you really have to drop this excuse.

As for crediting only wins to DeRo and not the losses, that is a stretch but it isn't completely untrue either. I know it's not a popular position but at the end of the day, a cold analysis of the situation answers the issue for you. What generates wins? Goals. Who scored them? Well over 40% of the time, DeRo did. So DeRo directly contributed to wins.

What generates losses? Goals against. As an attacking midfielder, how much responsibility falls on an AM (and sometimes Striker) to eliminate goals against? Answer that question and you've answered how responsible he is for the losses. I am not going to answer it for you, I'd like to see you explain to me the role of an AM and who on the pitch carries the most responsibility to keep balls out of our own net.

[Whoop]

Win as a team, lose as a team.

[Roogsy]

Win as a team, lose as a team.


Nice cliché Vic...but the reality is that a team is a collection of parts and each part does their job. Working in tandem is what produces results but there is no denying that sometimes you have parts that don't carry their weight and it affects the overall results. It's like crediting Fleury for all of Crosby's goals. You can credit him for being a part of a Stanley Cup winning team, but at the end of the day, the wins came from Crosby's performance. This isn't communism. You can't share the credit equally among all.

Beckham has failed to win a trophy in LA. Is that a reflection of Donovan or Beckham?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Beckham has failed to win a trophy in LA. Is that a reflection of Donovan or Beckham?

Supporter's Shield winner 2010.

[torontocelt]

Can't... help... getting sucked back in.....

Some of you guys are really funny.

On one hand, you argue that DeRo is this irreplaceable superstar that single handedly raised our team's collective performance to overachieve and that the team would be destitute without him.

And, when it was pointed out that the results suffered when he disappeared, you react by trying to lay the blame on the "inferior" players around him... inferior being your paraphrased words, not mine.

So, you credit him for all the wins and none of the losses.

----

My argument is simple. He's a talented player no question. Not the most talented player to ever play the game in the history of games past, present and future but a good player nonetheless. TFC roster is stronger, on paper, with him in the line up.

He brings baggage. No question.

Being Captain, his mood affects team performance. Attitude reflects leadership. We would be in a better position, as a team, to be led by someone else without the baggage. Team performance suffers when this baggage comes to the forefront.

If he can store the baggage, and that's his choice entirely, the situation improves for TFC.

95% of his team mates or more are inferior, you can quote me on that. I also never said he could not be replaced, of course he can as there are better players out there. On the other hand TFC cannot seem to attract good players easily so it makes it harder to replace him.

[Whoop]

Cliches are cliches for a reason.


My only thing with the DeRo thing is that everyone always rushes out to give him credit for the win in Montreal in '09 but absolves him of blame for the debacle in NY that same season.

Maybe that's the problem with TFC, they're not, or were not, a team. From the coaching staff to the players on the pitch.

In 2009 you had the carousel of coaches, in 2010 you had guys who hated the Prekiball style.

You need all types of players to form a team. Look at your vaunted Barcelona, sure Messi gets all the goals and plaudits. But the team is more than just Messi, no? Good thing Messi doesn't act like a prima donna about it.

TFC is more than just DeRo no matter how many goals DeRo scored. I don't blame him for the loss in NY but nor do I say he is the sole reason TFC won in Montreal in '09.

[Whoop]

It's like crediting Fleury for all of Crosby's goals. You can credit him for being a part of a Stanley Cup winning team, but at the end of the day, the wins came from Crosby's performance. This isn't communism. You can't share the credit equally among all.



This doesn't make sense.

In order to win you need to do more than just score goals. What good is scoring 8 if the other team scores 9?

So if a team wins 1-0 all the credit goes to the goal scorer? Even if it's an own goal?

Maybe that's been the problem with TFC all along. They're not a team.

[Roogsy]

Cliches are cliches for a reason.


My only thing with the DeRo thing is that everyone always rushes out to give him credit for the win in Montreal in '09 but absolves him of blame for the debacle in NY that same season.

Maybe that's the problem with TFC, they're not, or were not, a team. From the coaching staff to the players on the pitch.

In 2009 you had the carousel of coaches, in 2010 you had guys who hated the Prekiball style.

You need all types of players to form a team. Look at your vaunted Barcelona, sure Messi gets all the goals and plaudits. But the team is more than just Messi, no?

TFC is more than just DeRo no matter how many goals DeRo scored. I don't blame him for the loss in NY but nor do I say he is the sole reason TFC won in Montreal in '09.

I don't know what to tell you Whoopee. DeRo has produced with and without the captains armband. He has produced while relatively content and while frustrated. I don't know what else you want from this player.

You talk about the team not being a "team" but does that fall on one player? This team has never been a "team" even under other managers and other captains. Will you deny their leadership? If this problem existed before DeRo how is that DeRo is the cause?

A team is more than just one player yes. But if you don't have the "one" player that makes the difference, then the team has nothing to flow through, nothing to help their focus. You seem to want to blame DeRo for something but other than a dispute with management (as opposed to other players which would be a real indication of no cohesion), nobody has been able to point to what he has or has not done? In fact, I have pointed to team-building events he has put on for other players and the amount he includes them. Team relationships are not the problem here so what is? Are we really sure it's DeRo? It can't be anything else?

[Roogsy]

This doesn't make sense.

In order to win you need to do more than just score goals. What good is scoring 8 if the other team scores 9?

So if a team wins 1-0 all the credit goes to the goal scorer? Even if it's an own goal?

Maybe that's been the problem with TFC all along. They're not a team.

So if the Rangers score 9 on Pittsburgh, all eyes should be on Crosby? Is that what you are saying?

[Roogsy]

Supporter's Shield winner 2010.

I stand corrected.

[Whoop]

I never said it falls on one player. I would never say that.

I'm saying those that blame all of TFC's faults on DeRo are just as guilty as those who say TFC would be nothing without DeRo.

All I've said in the past ad nauseam - especially to those who claim DeRo was solely responsible for TFC's win in Montreal in '09 - was that if he's going to get credit for the wins he's also to be blamed for the losses.

Much like those who blame DeRo for everything should give him credit for helping TFC win the Voyageurs Cup twice.

Now as a player - and it goes for ANY player - if you're only willing to accept the plaudits during wins but accept no responsibility for losses, in my books, you're not a team player. That's why to this day I give a lot of credit to Sam Cronin and Brian Edwards for facing the music after the loss in NY while all the others ran away.

[Whoop]

So if the Rangers score 9 on Pittsburgh, all eyes should be on Crosby? Is that what you are saying?

Did I say that?

No.

Nor did I say that about DeRo.

Hell, football is more of a team game than hockey, or even basketball, given that you have 10 other guys on the pitch with you.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I stand corrected.

If I didn't like my sig so much already....:D

[McBrace]

Thank you Whoopee, the voice of reason...The metality of this team should be win as a team lose as a team.....

[Roogsy]

I never said it falls on one player.

I'm saying those that blame all of TFC's faults on DeRo are just as guilty as those who say TFC would be nothing without DeRo.

All I've said in the past ad nauseam - especially to those who claim DeRo was solely responsible for TFC's win in Montreal in '09 - was that if he's going to get credit for the wins he also to be blamed for the losses.

Much like those who blame DeRo for everything should give him credit for helping TFC win the Voyageurs Cup twice.

Now as a player - and it goes for ANY player - if you're only willing to accept the plaudits during wins but accept no responsibility for losses, in my books, you're not a team player. That's why to this day I give a lot of credit to Sam Cronin and Brian Edwards for facing the music after the loss in NY while all the others ran away.

Again, these are nice sentiments but not practical!

Give it to me straight right here Vic, what could DeRo have done to save TFC embarrassment on that rainy night in NY. Score 3 again? Fire Mo? Play goalkeeper?

I don't care about who stood up after the game. DeRo has stood in front of the news cameras more than any other player and during other difficult times. He's represented the team far too often mostly because they've had few people to choose from to represent the team. He's done it while he's had this contract dispute.

I think at the end of the day Vic, you and me have a vastly different idea of what it takes to win. You think it takes a bunch of good guys all plugging away equally and nobody being a star. I don't agree. I think you need one of everything. You need a star and you need a roleplayer. You need a grinder and you need the graceful swan. You need the wise veteran and the energetic rookie. It takes all types and they all bring advantages and disadvantages but when you find the right mix, it works.

This idea of yours that DeRo is just as responsible for NY as he was for Montreal is ridiculous because the results came from different types of results. Montreal needed multiple goals. And you got that from your leading scorer. So how can he NOT be credited with that win?

NY needed a staunch defense. Are you going to tell me that upon losing that game, you will look at your Attacking Midfielder and ask why he let 5 goals in against us? You'd have to if you 're going to stand by your point about credit for both games.

So I ask directly, what was DeRo supposed to do in that game for it not to have resulted in the way it did?

[Roogsy]

Did I say that?

No.

Nor did I say that about DeRo.

Hell, football is more of a team game than hockey, or even basketball, given that you have 10 other guys on the pitch with you.


Then I don't get your point Vic. If football is such a team game that one person does not affect the result, then DeRo's contract dispute should not be an issue for the rest of the team neither should it matter who is captain. Montreal and NY were won and lost as a team with no player standing out or being guilty. But given your position on the importance of a captain, and how much DeRo's contract dispute should have an effect on the rest of the team, I would have to state that your points stand directly contradicting each other.

[Whoop]

Again, these are nice sentiments but not practical!

Give it to me straight right here Vic, what could DeRo have done to save TFC embarrassment on that rainy night in NY. Score 3 again? Fire Mo? Play goalkeeper?

I don't care about who stood up after the game. DeRo has stood in front of the news cameras more than any other player and during other difficult times. He's represented the team far too often mostly because they've had few people to choose from to represent the team. He's done it while he's had this contract dispute.

I think at the end of the day Vic, you and me have a vastly different idea of what it takes to win. You think it takes a bunch of good guys all plugging away equally and nobody being a star. I don't agree. I think you need one of everything. You need a star and you need a roleplayer. You need a grinder and you need the graceful swan. You need the wise veteran and the energetic rookie. It takes all types and they all bring advantages and disadvantages but when you find the right mix, it works.

This idea of yours that DeRo is just as responsible for NY as he was for Montreal is ridiculous because the results came from different types of results. Montreal needed multiple goals. And you got that from your leading scorer. So how can he NOT be credited with that win?

NY needed a staunch defense. Are you going to tell me that upon losing that game, you will look at your Attacking Midfielder and ask why he let 5 goals in against us? You'd have to if you 're going to stand by your point about credit for both games.

So I ask directly, what was DeRo supposed to do in that game for it not to have resulted in the way it did?

I guess the teams I've been part of being responsible of putting together - and have won championships - is all based on sunshine and lollipops. LOL

I never said that he had to score 3. TFC scores one goal in that game early on it changes the complexion of the game. Is it solely on DeRo to get that goal? No.

But from what you're telling me then in any game TFC loses 1-0, I can blame DeRo for the loss? I mean he didn't score a goal when the team needed it so it's his fault? :confused: And I guess we should discredit Guevara's goals against Montreal that night because his goals only counted for 50% of a goal.

And with the bolded part I agree completely with what you're saying. That's what I've been saying along. But you're saying that the goal scorer is the only responsible for victories. And if the team loses 2-0, 3-0, it's not the goal scorers because "it's not my job to keep the ball out."

That goes over real well in the locker room. I'm sure the rest of his teammates will really appreciate that. :rolleyes:

[Whoop]

And ideally, over a long season, yes, you do want "good" guys on your team. It makes it easier when you're faced with the ups and downs of any season.

In a short tournament, you can absorb "bad" guys because it's a short tournament and the "bad" guys don't have as much time to infect a group.

Not saying that's the case with DeRo. Just in general with teams.

The more "bad" guys you have, the more you're playing with fire.

[Roogsy]

That goes over real well in the locker room. I'm sure the rest of his teammates will really appreciate that. :rolleyes:

He's not saying it, I am. You are claiming there are locker room issues where there are none.

As for Guevara, why do you choose to portray credit for DeRo as discredit for others? Guevara helped win the game, as did Barrett. But we didn't need to just WIN the game, lest you forget we needed to win by 5! So the credit goes to DeRo not just for scoring but for dominating. That dominance is what was necessary and he brought it. If it had been Guevara who had provided that dominance, he would have gotten credit. But he didn't. So why should he get the same amount of credit?

Credit should be objective, not politically correct.

As for championships, sorry Vic but we're talking about professional sports where ego management is a huge issue because of the elite athletes and money being thrown around. Player management at that level is different.

Essentially your point boils down to the fact that 1 goal in NY would have earned DeRo the same credit as 3 goals in Montreal. Ignoring the fact that 1 goal wasn't going to affect the result in a game where NY scored before the anthem had even finished playing as opposed to a Montreal game where DeRo pretty much opened the game up on his own. Wow. I know I am biased but I can't possibly believe that my bias is so great that we don't actually owe the Montreal win to DeRo.

[Roogsy]

And ideally, over a long season, yes, you do want "good" guys on your team. It makes it easier when you're faced with the ups and downs of any season.

In a short tournament, you can absorb "bad" guys because it's a short tournament and the "bad" guys don't have as much time to infect a group.

Not saying that's the case with DeRo. Just in general with teams.

The more "bad" guys you have, the more you're playing with fire.

I don't disagree.

Have any evidence that DeRo does not get along with this teammates?

[Whoop]

Fine.

Yet when the team loses, it's because DeRo doesn't have anyone to play with. So it's not DeRo's fault.

But DeRo scores a goal, the credit to victory is all DeRo's. And it's all in spite of his shitty teammates.

Fine.

[Roogsy]

:lol:

I've worn you down I see. I do that.

No bro...I am not trying to beat it into you, but I need you to back up your position with facts. I simply don't believe this being a "team" game automatically means there aren't "difference makers" in a game. When there are, credit should be rightly awarded. We beat Colorado nicely when Rohan played here and his two goals were beauties. While the rest of his time here was less than spectacular, that games stands out for him as a game where he shined. Does that diminish that the win was for TFC? No. But I'm sorry if I am not automatically replacing his two goals as necessarily coming from someone else in that game.

Who the player is does matter. Otherwise we might as well just sign a bunch of 40k a year players for each position. By the way you left out a very viable alternative to your DeRo situation. If the team does not let in a goal and DeRo does not help produce a goal, then come talk to me about failing to come through.

[Whoop]

I don't disagree.

Have any evidence that DeRo does not get along with this teammates?

Never said he was a bad teammate because I don't have evidence of that.

I was replying to your assertion that all I want is "good guys" on the team. And ideally yes, that's what I would like if I was building a team.

But IF DeRo acts like he is the most important, and only, piece of the team then I can't see that being endearing to his teammates. Is that the case? I don't know. I do know that the whole time he's been here, I've never heard one public statement being made by any of his teammates on how much of a good guy he is, how he's a great captain, how's a great teammate.

That's not necessarily a reflection on him per se as I've never seen that being said by any TFC player of any of their teammates.

That's not a good thing.

I think the only time this team has ever been united on any front was in their hate of Preki.

A team with good chemistry - that "win as a team, lose as team", band of brothers mentality - goes a long way in a team setting.

Now as the oldest player on the team, the one with the most seniority in MLS, the one with the armband, you would think DeRo would help foster that mentality - as normally that comes from within the team, not from outside sources. I mean, a coach can help but he can't help it if guys hate each other. But again, that's not solely DeRo's responsibility. Never said it was.

Over the last four years I've seen a disjointed team, fractured, not really fighting for one another. A lot of that can be attributed to the incompetent FO, the carousel of coaches and the constant turnover. But as players, the players can do more to help their cause.

Again, if credit is to be objective, then as the "leader" of the team, does not a lot of the blame fall to the captain/leader of the team for the lack of cohesiveness on the team?

I just hope Winter helps in fostering an environment where guys will want to fight for one another.

[v00d00daddy]

As for Guevara, why do you choose to portray credit for DeRo as discredit for others? Guevara helped win the game, as did Barrett. But we didn't need to just WIN the game, lest you forget we needed to win by 5! So the credit goes to DeRo not just for scoring but for dominating. That dominance is what was necessary and he brought it. If it had been Guevara who had provided that dominance, he would have gotten credit. But he didn't. So why should he get the same amount of credit?

Credit should be objective, not politically correct.


Couple of questions:

1-Why do you quantify the credit in a good performance? What's the point of this. THE TEAM won together in Montreal.

2-Why do you only dole out credit when it comes to DeRo? Why don't you fault him for his negative ON FIELD stuff. There is a lot of it despite what many think.

By your logic, every game that TFC lose 1-0 or 2-1 we should blame DeRo..more than anyone else.

He's the man expected to score the goals. When he doesn't score when we lose 1-0 then the loss is all his fault.

It's ridiculous.

IMO He's selfish. Plain and simple. On and off the field.

That's not what you look for in a leader.

We've all played with that guy that thinks he's much better than his teammates and shows it by seeking glory all for himself. DeRO is the prototypical player of this nature.

He'd rather shoot from 40 yards out then pass the ball to a teammate because he figures that teammate will shit the bed.

That's fine. He may be right about his teammates but that shit will not endear you to your teammates, your coach or the supporters of your team.

Then he goes and demands more money (probably deserved based on his talent) and all people see is the negative, selfish bullshit and they say "Fuck it. I don't care if he's good. He's a dick"

Welcome to square one of this entire debate. LOL

[Whoop]

:lol:

I've worn you down I see. I do that.

No bro...I am not trying to beat it into you, but I need you to back up your position with facts. I simply don't believe this being a "team" game automatically means there aren't "difference makers" in a game. When there are, credit should be rightly awarded. We beat Colorado nicely when Rohan played here and his two goals were beauties. While the rest of his time here was less than spectacular, that games stands out for him as a game where he shined. Does that diminish that the win was for TFC? No. But I'm sorry if I am not automatically replacing his two goals as necessarily coming from someone else in that game.

Who the player is does matter. Otherwise we might as well just sign a bunch of 40k a year players for each position. By the way you left out a very viable alternative to your DeRo situation. If the team does not let in a goal and DeRo does not help produce a goal, then come talk to me about failing to come through.

Argh, we're going in circles. LOL

Never said it doesn't matter.

My point is when you're the top dog on the team, you're have to know you're going to take your share of criticism for losses as well.

You can't be absolved of that.

Yet the DeRo backers don't see that. "Oh, it's not DeRo's fault, it's never his fault. The team lost 3-0 so it's all the defenders and keeper's fault."

[Roogsy]

Again, if credit is to be objective, then as the "leader" of the team, does not a lot of the blame fall to the captain/leader of the team for the lack of cohesiveness on the team?


No, I don't think so. So long as he is doing everything he can to address the situation. If there is lack of cohesion it's because once all the variables are in place, there is more disrupting the team than there is helping it together.

If you have Mo as your GM and Preki as your coach, believe me, your team is going to be up shit creek right from the start. You don't know that DeRo didn't do all he could to keep the team upbeat or on friendly terms. And you don't know if there were any other agendas or influences that helped or hindered him. I do agree as Captain he needs to make an effort to get the team together, but do you have any evidence that he didn't? Because I have evidence that he did. Was it enough to contravene all the negativity around the club? Would any player be able to do enough?

So no, I don't believe the captian ultimately answers for the team's cohesion. The captain has to do his best. Just like with the results. If the scoring threat scores but the defenders and keepers don't keep the ball out of the net, can you blame the scorer for the loss? It's about assigning credit and blame in their respective places.

[Whoop]

This will be my last post here. LOL

Now granted, this was devised for hockey, but this was devised by a pro coach for pro coaches. It's from a seminar.

It can be applied to football. Hopefully Winter is doing some of this.


But I guess it's all pie in the sky stuff. LOL

"Win as a team, lose as a team" - it's a cliche for a reason. ;)



Developing Your Leaders

As coaches, we often complain about our leadership void in the dressing room. Seldom do we take proactive steps to do something about it. Listed below are some thoughts and challenges for you to allow your team to “lead from within.”

1. Find out who your leaders are. Your team will have 3 – 4 players who will wear the “C” and “A’s”, but there are also informal leaders who when the coach is not there, they control the group. Generally they are the social leaders also.

2. Meet regularly with your leadership group to address issues and keep them informed on the schedule, travel, and upcoming meetings. Also allow them to voice their opinion of where the group is at. In this meeting include the captains, possibly 1-2 informal leaders, and also one other player on the team. Over the course of the year, all players will have a chance to be included.

3. Educate the leadership group with a one hour training session monthly. Potential topics may include how to challenge your teammates and maintain respect, preparing to play, developing accountability, dealing with problem issues, developing ownership and motivation.

4. In times of trouble it always easy for the coach to jump in and take control, but in order for players to truly lead, you have to give them an opportunity to sort it out on their own. The difficulty is to decide when they need to take control and when you need to step in.

5. Recognize individuals who show leadership skills. Compliment the team when initiative is taken.

6. Hold the team and your leadership group accountable for not taking charge of certain situations.

When the players push the players and keep the group heading in the direction you have outlined, then you have a chance to maximize your team’s potential.

[v00d00daddy]

:lol:

If the team does not let in a goal and DeRo does not help produce a goal, then come talk to me about failing to come through.

There have been several 1-1 and 0-0 games. Is it DeRos fault that they weren't wins?

How about all the one goal losses? Is it DeRo's fault that they weren't ties?

[ManUtd4ever]

LOL, this thread is exhausting. I think everyone can agree that DeRo is a game breaker, but TFC will not be successful unless they perform well as a cohesive unit. Otherwise, DeRo could score 15 goals again and TFC will still finish the season with 8 wins.

[Roogsy]

My point is when you're the top dog on the team, you're have to know you're going to take your share of criticism for losses as well.

You can't be absolved of that.

Sorry, it's not even a DeRo thing at this point. I simply don't buy into what your perception of what a team leader is responsible for. A team leader is not responsible for less than talented players. A team leader is not responsible for a coach with poor tactics. If a team loses you have to look at the causes. If the team leader can be showed to directly affect the outcome then sure blame the loss on him. But for him to be responsible for all aspects of the game is ridiculous.

If my firm makes lots of money despite me losing money, I don't get credit for the firm's great showing. I know this firsthand because it happened one year I was on the trading desk. I lost a million bucks in a bad trade. But the company had a great quarter. Did I deserve a bonus?

But the opposite happened much later. The firm was having one of it's worst quarters in years but my department made the firm a ton of money. Should I get a bonus even though the firm lost money? You damn betcha I did.

Individual performances are where credit is awarded. If the team wins a game because Santos scores, I don't look to DeRo and say "his leadership won us that game", I look to Maicon and say "his goal won us the game".

[Whoop]

LOL, this thread is exhausting. I think everyone can agree that DeRo is a game breaker, but TFC will not be successful unless they perform well as a cohesive unit. Otherwise, DeRo could score 15 goals again and TFC will still finish the season with 8 wins.

That's pie in the sky talk! LOL

Now I'm out. :lol:

[Roogsy]

There have been several 1-1 and 0-0 games. Is it DeRos fault that they weren't wins?

How about all the one goal losses? Is it DeRo's fault that they weren't ties?

They could be DeRo's fault yes. How about that for a shocker?

Here is another shocker for you.

There are games that TFC dropped points (ties or losses) where I think DeRo was the reason we dropped points. For example, one of his infamous airballs on a clear scoring opportunity.

But NY is not one of those times where DeRo is the reason we did not at least generate the necessary draw to go through in the playoffs. And people will have to provide real evidence to support why DeRo is not the principle reason why we won our first Voyageurs Cup. And Vic is one of them.

[BeerBaron95]

They could be DeRo's fault yes. How about that for a shocker?

Here is another shocker for you.

There are games that TFC dropped points (ties or losses) where I think DeRo was the reason we dropped points. For example, one of his infamous airballs on a clear scoring opportunity.

But NY is not one of those times where DeRo is the reason we did not at least generate the necessary draw to go through in the playoffs. And people will have to provide real evidence to support why DeRo is not the principle reason why we won our first Voyageurs Cup. And Vic is one of them.

Roogs, you feeling ok??

lol

[Whoop]

One last point to clarify.

Egos are egos at any age and level, only difference is when you get older the entourages get larger. LOL

And as for ego management, wouldn't ego management be easier when you have fewer guys who have ego issues? ;) It's a huge issue at any level.

[Pookie]

Yeah but you (and others) are trying to make the connection that his scoring dry-streak was as a result of his mood and your only evidence is that he didn't score despite evidence that when his mood may not have been at his happiest he was still scoring. What evidence do you have that it was his mood that caused TFC's stumble mid-summer? Because if you have no evidence, you really have to drop this excuse.

Do you really want to go into the overwhelming evidence in the realm of sports psychology that concludes that one's outlook has a significant impact on performance or shall we just continue to nitpick away until you get to a comfortable level of cognitive dissonance and can pretend that emotion and motivation have no impact on an individual/team's performance?



As for crediting only wins to DeRo and not the losses, that is a stretch but it isn't completely untrue either. I know it's not a popular position but at the end of the day, a cold analysis of the situation answers the issue for you. What generates wins? Goals. Who scored them? Well over 40% of the time, DeRo did. So DeRo directly contributed to wins.

What generates losses? Goals against. As an attacking midfielder, how much responsibility falls on an AM (and sometimes Striker) to eliminate goals against? Answer that question and you've answered how responsible he is for the losses. I am not going to answer it for you, I'd like to see you explain to me the role of an AM and who on the pitch carries the most responsibility to keep balls out of our own net.

Oh geez.

Equally true would be this statement:

"Failure to score makes it impossible to win"

If you want to go down this silly route of separating "offense" and "defence" in this beautiful game then let's have at it. In 2010, we had 5 games that ended in 0-0 draws. The defence did their job, where was Mr Offense? 15 points would have made a difference to the playoff picture.

What exactly do you hope to gain by going down this route?

[Roogsy]

Do you really want to go into the overwhelming evidence in the realm of sports psychology that concludes that one's outlook has a significant impact on performance or shall we just continue to nitpick away until you get to a comfortable level of cognitive dissonance and can pretend that emotion and motivation have no impact on an individual/team's performance?

I never said that. What I am looking for is evidence that during the specific period in question, his lack of production was directly tied to his "mood". Have any?


What exactly do you hope to gain by going down this route?

I already mentioned above that some dropped points can be directly attributed to DeRo. Whoop and I have been arguing for weeks about the Montreal and NY games specifically.

[Pookie]

I never said that. What I am looking for is evidence that during the specific period in question, his lack of production was directly tied to his "mood". Have any?


Nah, I guess not. We have proof of a lack of production but he never called me up to talk about his mood. I guess that cheque writing thing and everything he said about it came from out of the blue.

So, if we simply have a lack of production as one piece of evidence and we have his age as another piece of evidence and you say that is all we have... I guess his declining production is most likely attributed to his age.

Given his brittle nature during the preseason, let's hope it isn't a sign of things to come. That's a lot of coin tied up in an aging player with performance and health gaps. Good thing we didn't do something silly like offering him a 4 year deal at $600k/year.

[P-NUTZ]

i think pooks, roogs and whoop are on tilt.

[Shakes McQueen]

Pookie and Vic have become the new Shakes McQueen. LOL :D

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Nah, I guess not. We have proof of a lack of production but he never called me up to talk about his mood. I guess that cheque writing thing and everything he said about it came from out of the blue.

Since your point is that his mood was affecting production, do you really think using the example of his frustration after he scored a goal really proves your point?


So, if we simply have a lack of production as one piece of evidence and we have his age as another piece of evidence and you say that is all we have... I guess his declining production is most likely attributed to his age.

15 goals is a lack of production? Declining production? I asked for evidence for that specific period of time of June to September. Just admit you don't have any.


Given his brittle nature during the preseason, let's hope it isn't a sign of things to come. That's a lot of coin tied up in an aging player with performance and health gaps. Good thing we didn't do something silly like offering him a 4 year deal at $600k/year.

Being in a bad mood is brittle? Scoring multiple goals while upset is brittle? I guess brittle means something different to you than it does to me.

[Pookie]

Since your point is that his mood was affecting production, do you really think using the example of his frustration after he scored a goal really proves your point?

Oh, I forgot. You don't play connect the dots. This wasn't bubbling under the surface for weeks, this was a spontaneous display.

So, you are saying, no mood influenced decline in production.

We are agreed then, it was his age. That was the only factor?


15 goals is a lack of production? Declining production? I asked for evidence for that specific period of time of June to September. Just admit you don't have any.

I guess when you take all the shots and don't distribute the ball, you can't be expected to decline in overall production. The decline only covers a critical portion of the season, that's all. So, let's not classify this as a "decline in overall production." Let's just call it "disappearing when it matters."

As for "evidence" nope, I've got nothing other than the DP signing and his admitted pissoffedness (is that a legal term?) at that. All we've got is age apparently.


Being in a bad mood is brittle? Scoring multiple goals while upset is brittle? I guess brittle means something different to you than it does to me.

No, by brittle I was referring to his preseason injury. See, when you get into your 30's, you are very delicate. You can hurt yourself in the process of sleeping. I've done it and while I'm not exactly as skilled at soccer as DeRo, I'm pretty sure that I could manage to move my aching body to the penalty spot and score on 2 penalty kicks and equal his entire pre-season production.

Of course, that's assuming that Shakes' Grandma wasn't able to take them.

[Roogsy]

Oh, I forgot. You don't play connect the dots. This wasn't bubbling under the surface for weeks, this was a spontaneous display.

So, you are saying, no mood influenced decline in production.

We are agreed then, it was his age. That was the only factor?

What decline in production???


I guess when you take all the shots and don't distribute the ball, you can't be expected to decline in overall production. The decline only covers a critical portion of the season, that's all. So, let's not classify this as a "decline in overall production." Let's just call it "disappearing when it matters."

Yes...he disappeared when it mattered. That's why he was our best scoring threat in the final push for a playoff spot again. :rolleyes:


As for "evidence" nope, I've got nothing other than the DP signing and his admitted pissoffedness (is that a legal term?) at that. All we've got is age apparently.

So no evidence? Good, we're agreed then.


No, by brittle I was referring to his preseason injury. See, when you get into your 30's, you are very delicate. You can hurt yourself in the process of sleeping. I've done it and while I'm not exactly as skilled at soccer as DeRo, I'm pretty sure that I could manage to move my aching body to the penalty spot and score on 2 penalty kicks and equal his entire pre-season production.

Of course, that's assuming that Shakes' Grandma wasn't able to take them.

:noidea: I think you've lost the plot. You're not even on point anymore. I think we're done.

[Shakes McQueen]

What decline in production???

I think Pookie was referring to the long stretch during the summer when DeRo didn't score any goals, and generally played kind of poorly.

I also think the whole "he scored goals down the stretch when it mattered" argument is a bit shaky, because if he had contributed more offense to some of those games during the summer, we might have been in a different position for the final stretch.

It'd be sort of like saying the Leafs are clutch, because they always wake up and play well near the end of the season, when the playoffs are unlikely at best.

I'm not going to get involved in the actual argument here - I just think that your logic was flawed on that point.

- Scott

[Whoop]

Don't get sucked in Shakes. LOL

I bowed out. :lol:

[Shakes McQueen]

Of course, that's assuming that Shakes' Grandma wasn't able to take them.

My grandma bends it like Beckham.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Don't get sucked in Shakes. LOL

I bowed out. :lol:

It's a defect in my personality. Any time I see someone make an argument I disagree with, or use a rationale that doesn't make sense to me, it's like acid on my brain. I have to respond, haha.

Sometimes in retrospect I may wish I hadn't (especially when I start trading 10,000 word essays with someone), but I can't help it. :D

- Scott

[rocker]

It's a defect in my personality. Any time I see someone make an argument I disagree with, or use a rationale that doesn't make sense to me, it's like acid on my brain. I have to respond, haha.


Good for you! Here's a quote:

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to succeed is for enough good men to remain silent."

[Waggy]

You're all a bunch of masochists. That's all

[Roogsy]

I think Pookie was referring to the long stretch during the summer when DeRo didn't score any goals, and generally played kind of poorly.


For this to be an indication of a "decline in performance" DeRo would have never had to suffer a dry streak (so that a summer dry streak would be out of character) OR produced less than in previous years. A decline is a comparison to a previous measuring standard. Are you saying that DeRo never had a dry streak in his previous years? Or are you saying he produced less last year than in previous years. Which is it?

For a guy who claims allegiance to logic, this one seemed like an easy one Scott.

[Klinsmann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMrSiO0eQo

[Shakes McQueen]

For this to be an indication of a "decline in performance" DeRo would have never had to suffer a dry streak (so that a summer dry streak would be out of character) OR produced less than in previous years. A decline is a comparison to a previous measuring standard. Are you saying that DeRo never had a dry streak in his previous years? Or are you saying he produced less last year than in previous years. Which is it?

For a guy who claims allegiance to logic, this one seemed like an easy one Scott.

I think you're nitpicking her choice of words when Pookie said "decline in performance". It was a decline in performance compared to earlier in the season, when he was on fire, and scored most of his goals for the season. It wasn't an overall decline statistically for DeRo, but of course, looking at overall stats doesn't tell the whole story of a player's season.

It also in no way precludes the possibility of DeRo having other dry runs in his lengthy career, but I certainly wouldn't say it was "in character" for Dwayne De Rosario to suffer such a long drought of production - either in scoring, or by assisting. And for all we know, any previous dry spell of his may have been rooted in off-field unrest too.

I have no idea if his weak summer play was because off-field issues were affecting him, as Pookie has asserted. I do know that there's a mountain of evidence, which Vic can probably attest to first-hand, that off-field issues can affect an athlete's performance.

And forgive my language, because it's more for effect than genuine anger or hostility, but fuck off with rhetoric like "for a guy who claims allegiance to logic...". That entire sentence served no argumentative purpose other than to be condescending towards me.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

I think you're nitpicking her choice of words when Pookie said "decline in performance". It was a decline in performance compared to earlier in the season, when he was on fire, and scored most of his goals for the season. It wasn't an overall decline statistically for DeRo, but of course, looking at overall stats doesn't tell the whole story of a player's season.

It also in no way precludes the possibility of DeRo having other dry runs in his lengthy career, but I certainly wouldn't say it was "in character" for Dwayne De Rosario to suffer such a long drought of production - either in scoring, or by assisting. And for all we know, any previous dry spell of his may have been rooted in off-field unrest too.

I have no idea if his weak summer play was because off-field issues were affecting him, as Pookie has asserted. I do know that there's a mountain of evidence, which Vic can probably attest to first-hand, that off-field issues can affect an athlete's performance.

And forgive my language, because it's more for effect than genuine anger or hostility, but fuck off with rhetoric like "for a guy who claims allegiance to logic...". That entire sentence served no argumentative purpose other than to be condescending towards me.

- Scott

There is no hostility on my part either but no I will not "fuck off". Your statement lacks logic which in the very following statement you point to your aversion so such lack of logic. Your proclamations of adherence to logic ask for such a response when you respond with such lack of logic.

As for a mid-season "decline in productivity", that is the most ridiculous justification I have yet to read on DeRo. So now not only does he have to score most of the team's goals but the pace at which he scores has to continue throughout the season at the same level. Jesus. Next thing you know if he scores in one game and not the next, that too will be a "decline in productivity".

If this is the type of logic you guys are going to employ I think I will excuse myself from this thread as I did the last. Hammer away at the man. We're going to the season undermanned (once again) and with one of the youngest groups in MLS with a bunch of draft picks and academy kids filling out the ranks and frankly I don't have the time or energy to defend DeRo this year again to the lot of you who will surely blame our lack of results on him again. I've defended him enough and frankly I am beginning to dislike some of you which I never wanted.

Good night.

[Shakes McQueen]

Quit exaggerating. I didn't "proclaim an adherence to logic" - I said I can't help but interject in a discussion when I see someone making a point that I personally find illogical or unreasonable. I pointed it out as a personality defect, not as though I'm some arbiter of truth and logic. People read things they may personally find illogical all the time, but they can usually just let it go if it's over something minor, or a subject they don't really care about. I cannot - hence, defect. It wasn't a backhanded compliment to myself; I actually meant it.

I also never at any point said that DeRo had to keep up the pace at which he was scoring earlier in the season. I said I thought it was out of character for the man to go from tearing it up early in the season, to bone dry and mostly ineffective for the majority of the summer. You're exaggerating my statements to the point of absurdity. This wasn't a week to week thing - it was a period of several straight weeks where DeRo wasn't producing, and looked out of his element on the pitch.

And I'm not "hammering away at the man". In fact, if you go all the way back to the first page of this thread, I was DEFENDING him. I merely took objection to the logic behind a rather small point you had made, and tried to take careful pains not to get involved in the argument between you and Pookie et al.

I think I'm going to take Vic's advice now, and pull the emergency chute on my involvement in this one.

- Scott

[Alonso]

Hey watch this interview....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o2asnddx-s

Haha... very insightful 2 years after it was done.

Klinsmann, thanks for the youtube video! Dero is so very talented. Those video highlights made me appreciate the man again for what he is... A supremely talented footballer!

[Tyzer]

I Think De Ro deserves $2 million a year, from history alone but the salary cap and league rules will hold him to cash in take well below his true worth!! .... SAD!!
:canada:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMrSiO0eQo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMrSiO0eQo)
My Note to De Ro is: You should take the offer and play your heart out, there are many different ways to get paid, endorsements and front office jobs until you retire can make up for your "pay me now" short fall over the years. Get some guarantees make some contacts and you could end up making $10 million being the corporate face for someone after you raise the MLS Cup in T.O :)
:scarf:

[Waggy]

I Think De Ro deserves $2 million a year, from history alone but the salary cap and league rules will hold him to cash in take well below his true worth!! .... SAD!!
:canada:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMrSiO0eQo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMrSiO0eQo)
My Note to De Ro is: You should take the offer and play your heart out, there are many different ways to get paid, endorsements and front office jobs until you retire can make up for your "pay me now" short fall over the years. Get some guarantees make some contacts and you could end up making $10 million being the corporate face for someone after you raise the MLS Cup in T.O :)
:scarf:

Ya it's too bad Major League Soccer has been holding him hostage all these years. If only there were other soccer leagues that played in other countries around the world that did't have a salary cap and could offer players what they were worth. Maybe if these mythical leagues had existed someone worth $2 million dollars a year would have been found and saved from this hell of 500 000 dollars a year. Oh woe to the mighty Dero


There, got my sarcasm out for the day. Now go get a hattrick Dero lol. COME ON YOU REDS! It's game day! Forget about this for a day or 2.