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Oldtimer
03-15-2011, 02:18 PM
A tale of two styles (and why it is important)

TFC is trying to have a consistent team philosophy and style of play. This is generally a good idea, as consistently good teams world-wide tend to do that.
In MLS, interestingly enough, this hasn’t been the pattern. For example, Chivas started out with a with Mexican players with a Dutch coach under Rongen, changed to an American style under Bradley, changed yet again to Preki’s anti-football, and changed yet again to another style when Preki left. It’s been the coach that set the style. This is typical of MLS teams.
There is one MLS team, however, that has tried to play a consistent philosophy and style.


DC United
I’ve been following DC United since around 2005. They were unique amongst MLS 1.0 clubs in that they had a consistent philosophy about the team. (Last year was a rebuilding year, and they were awful, but they have a great history). No team has been more successful in MLS (4 MLS Cups, 4 Supporters’ shields, the CONCACAF Champions Cup – now the CONCACAF Champions League, and the only MLS Club to play in the Copa Sudamericana). How did they do it? Well they did it using an MLS 1.0 equivalent of how clubs have succeeded world-wide: build players into playing a consistent style and pick up a few key pieces elsewhere.
In early MLS, there were no team academies, but DCU followed the path of picking decent MLS draft picks prospects who could learn a consistent syle and developed them. Their first coach, Rongen, was Dutch, and they developed a possession-based style, but it was more latino than Dutch. Players like Etcheverry and Moreno were the key pieces that put them “over the top.” Players they developed themselves, like Esky and Ben Olson learned to play their style. Somehow they managed to pick up a few inexpensive Latin Americans to round out their team (having 2 scouts in South America helped).

TFC’s new style and its consequences
TFC has picked an Ajax-influenced style for its team, instead of following DCU’s successful strategy. I believe that it is for two related reasons:
(1) MLS is becoming a feeder league. In the early days, the league was a destination league for “B” or “C” quality players. Now they are developing players to sell to top Euro leagues. The sale of Mo Adu will have alerted ML$E’s board as to the potential moolah to be made from selling players. Currently there are restrictions on what you can do with that money, but over time those restrictions will be significantly loosened, as they already have been for academies.
(2) The new MLS academies will provide a ready stream of kids to sell. The Whitecaps have already developed this model in D2, as have some private academies.
So, if you look at teams that have successfully made money from their academies, no club globally stands out more than Ajax.
The consequences for TFC are important:
(1) In the long-run, TFC will have a consistent style.
(2) TFC will struggle in the short-term. Why? Well if you look at DC United, they are always able to add pieces from Latin America that fit in with their style. Where will TFC get inexpensive key pieces? Players in the U.S. don’t know the Dutch style. Neither do Latin Americans. Players from the Dutch 5th division are no better than NCAA prospects, and MLS squads are strictly limited as to the number of foreign players. TFC will have to develop most of their players themselves. They realize that, and are building a top academy. However, it will take a minimum of 2 years to develop an academy graduate into a decent starter. TFC has one key player who already knows a similar style (JDG), and 2 out of the 3 Dutch players look like starters. We aren’t going to see too many wins with 3 decent players out of 11. This is hard for most of us to take, as we have endured years of failure under Mo, but it’s what we will be facing this year and next.

Wull
03-15-2011, 02:52 PM
I think to say 3 decent players is a bit off considering one of them has yet to prove himself in TFC colours and it shuns the fact that Frei, DeRo and Nana are good MLS players who may take some time to adjust to a system

P-NUTZ
03-15-2011, 02:54 PM
losing sucks.

Bars92
03-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Thats Mo Edu.

Darlofletch
03-15-2011, 03:05 PM
christ! just cos you personally don't like it, doesn't mean it's anti football. what does that even mean? it's just a different style, that's all.

besides how much did preki talk last year about how he wanted the team to pass and not just hoof it up all the time.

it's ridiculous how accepted a certain theory can become, even when it's not even close to the full picture.

not conceding many goals for the first time ever in our history? learning to walk before we ran for the first time in our history? taking the time to get some basics down and become a solid team before trying to incorporate more offensive players into the system? oh the horror.

i really need to let it go and just let all the "prekiball" comments go, but wow it's difficult at times.

and lol at the 2 dutch players instantly being considered "decent players" why? just because they're dutch? I presume you're going with martina as one of them? he's looked ok during preseason, nothing great, who's the other, the one coming from qatar, or the one coming from the dutch 5th division, which you yourself say is no better than the ncaa?

sorry for the rant, but fuck!

Beach_Red
03-15-2011, 03:29 PM
How does selling a player work? The player needs to be under contract to TFC, right? Can the team sell academy players to other teams?

It seems like the possibility that players will sign long-term contracts with TFC if there's a good chance they can move on to more lucrative leagues could be rare. The Edu sale was a surpsise, wasn't it, and may not be repeated for a long time.

But still, developing players through an academy seems like a good idea and staying with a consistent style of play also seems like a good idea. After what this team has been through, a year or two of developing into something sustainable would be great.

Milky
03-15-2011, 03:45 PM
I agree that having your own style is most beneficial. Look at Manchester United as one example: they've had Valencia, Ferdinand, Hargreaves, Park, Owen, Nani, etc... all injured this season, and yet they are still top of the league (and were even undefeated for the first half). How is this possible? Because they have a system and players have been groomed from an early age to be able to just slot in and keep the machine going. I wouldn't say that the Da Silva brothers, or Wes Brown, or John O'Shea, or Gibson/Obertan/Evans etc.... are particularly good players, but they are solid because they fit into the system when needed.

Milky
03-15-2011, 03:49 PM
Beach_Red, there are restrictions in regards to selling Academy players, but if they turn 18 and sign professional contracts, then they are open to poachers. And unlike most (all?) clubs worldwide, the league actually own the contracts of all players. That means that if the MLS wants to sell a TFC player, then they can. TFC may not want to sell said player, but the MLS can pressure them into it. You'd hope for some dialogue though.

Jeffro
03-15-2011, 03:59 PM
christ! just cos you personally don't like it, doesn't mean it's anti football. what does that even mean? it's just a different style, that's all.

besides how much did preki talk last year about how he wanted the team to pass and not just hoof it up all the time.

it's ridiculous how accepted a certain theory can become, even when it's not even close to the full picture.

not conceding many goals for the first time ever in our history? learning to walk before we ran for the first time in our history? taking the time to get some basics down and become a solid team before trying to incorporate more offensive players into the system? oh the horror.

i really need to let it go and just let all the "prekiball" comments go, but wow it's difficult at times.

and lol at the 2 dutch players instantly being considered "decent players" why? just because they're dutch? I presume you're going with martina as one of them? he's looked ok during preseason, nothing great, who's the other, the one coming from qatar, or the one coming from the dutch 5th division, which you yourself say is no better than the ncaa?

sorry for the rant, but fuck!


Dude, there were games last year against really weak opponents where Preki feilded an extremely defensive lineup, at home and our tactics were more towards not conceding than actually scoring. Playing defensive is one thing, not even trying to score and playing for nil-nil draws at home, that's anti-football.

BeerBaron95
03-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Dude, there were games last year against really weak opponents where Preki feilded an extremely defensive lineup, at home and our tactics were more towards not conceding than actually scoring. Playing defensive is one thing, not even trying to score and playing for nil-nil draws at home, that's anti-football.


ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY correct!!

Roogsy
03-15-2011, 04:08 PM
And yes Preki wanted more passing. But all we saw was more passing into the backfield. There was absolutely no consistent forward passing all year long.

Not to mention, there is a difference between wanting players to do something and setting up a plan, developing the plan and then implementing the plan. From what players have told me, despite what Preki "wanted" he never showed them what he wanted or had in mind. His training sessions were basically running players into the ground physically with very little time spent on "tactics".

Listen...I hate defensive soccer but if it would have had even a small measure of success in Toronto I would have endured it. But we didn't. Because defensive soccer is more than putting 11 players behind the centreline. Add to that the fact that Preki lost almost the entire lockerroom, not just one or two players, and you had a recipe for disaster.

Darlofletch
03-15-2011, 04:09 PM
Dude, there were games last year against really weak opponents where Preki feilded an extremely defensive lineup, at home and our tactics were more towards not conceding than actually scoring. Playing defensive is one thing, not even trying to score and playing for nil-nil draws at home, that's anti-football.

you seriously think we ever went out there not trying to score. there were games we weren't very good at it, sure, but not trying? lol.

it wasn't all that successful, after all it was within the first season of trying something new, and we never got time to see what would happen when new players were brought in and the system was allowed to develop. preki obviously pissed off a lot of people within the lcub, and was too associated with the mo regime, so fair enough he had to go as well, but looking strictly at the coaching side of it, he was the best we've had so far.

hopefully winter will prove himself better, and if he doesn't prove it right away, will be given the time preki never had.

to get back to the original purpose of the thread, i'm optimistic that if given time, things will get better as it seems like the first time we've had someone try and implement a style that can outlast them after they've gone, and it should work.

am i optimistic that that time will actually be given? a little less so. we'll see.

Derko
03-15-2011, 05:45 PM
^ Therefore it is up to us as supporters to allow Winter that time, and not become frustrated. Christ isn't that what supporting a Football team is all about. Let's not be just a bunch of Bandwagon jumpers, on and off. Just stay on the tracks.

jloome
03-15-2011, 05:53 PM
you seriously think we ever went out there not trying to score. there were games we weren't very good at it, sure, but not trying? lol.

it wasn't all that successful, after all it was within the first season of trying something new, and we never got time to see what would happen when new players were brought in and the system was allowed to develop. preki obviously pissed off a lot of people within the lcub, and was too associated with the mo regime, so fair enough he had to go as well, but looking strictly at the coaching side of it, he was the best we've had so far.

hopefully winter will prove himself better, and if he doesn't prove it right away, will be given the time preki never had.

to get back to the original purpose of the thread, i'm optimistic that if given time, things will get better as it seems like the first time we've had someone try and implement a style that can outlast them after they've gone, and it should work.

am i optimistic that that time will actually be given? a little less so. we'll see.

Not "not wanting to score," but certainly "not planning to score." Players have talked about the fact that under Preki there was almost no tactical training, which at this level amounts to the same thing.

Would "too stupid to score," be an acceptable middleground? That's what it amounted to under Preki.

Darlofletch
03-15-2011, 06:02 PM
And yes Preki wanted more passing. But all we saw was more passing into the backfield. There was absolutely no consistent forward passing all year long.

Not to mention, there is a difference between wanting players to do something and setting up a plan, developing the plan and then implementing the plan. From what players have told me, despite what Preki "wanted" he never showed them what he wanted or had in mind. His training sessions were basically running players into the ground physically with very little time spent on "tactics".

Listen...I hate defensive soccer but if it would have had even a small measure of success in Toronto I would have endured it. But we didn't. Because defensive soccer is more than putting 11 players behind the centreline. Add to that the fact that Preki lost almost the entire lockerroom, not just one or two players, and you had a recipe for disaster.

really? what exactly would count as a small measure of success.

a) firstly he had what? 21 league games, what was he supposed to have done in that time? this is what he did actually do.
b) won the v-cup with no fuss and no need of miracles.
c) won a tough ccl qualifying match, including going in to honduras and getting a result.
d) beat cruz azul. yes he pissed it away against arabe unido, but he beat cruz azul in a game that mattered, which very few people would have predicted.
e) started the season with a 5 game home winning streak
f) started the season with a 14 game unbeaten streak
g) stopped the "last 15 minute goals" habit.

that's a lot of small measures right there. there was a lot of bad things in there as well, only natural considering it was his first season of trying to change things, but to say there was nothing good at all is just plain ridiculous, as is throwing out lazy cliches like "putting 11 men behind the centreline" which you know is a complete exagerration. I'm surprised you of all people roogsy, who can often be so frustratingly nit picking and demanding of accuracy and evidence, would throw out such a lazy argument.

Darlofletch
03-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Not "not wanting to score," but certainly "not planning to score." Players have talked about the fact that under Preki there was almost no tactical training, which at this level amounts to the same thing.

Would "too stupid to score," be an acceptable middleground? That's what it amounted to under Preki.

But they weren't. until the last few games of his reign when our forward line was killed by injuries, we never really had that much of a problem scoring. it was a roster problem rather than a coaching problem, and yes he obviously had a large part in that roster, but it was nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be.

Ron Manager
03-15-2011, 06:51 PM
christ! just cos you personally don't like it, doesn't mean it's anti football. what does that even mean? it's just a different style, that's all.
!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-football

Describes last season to a t if you ask me.
I hate that style of play in any sport. It is seen in almost every major final of every sport, teams are so afraid of losing, they don't try to win. Superbowls are often that way as are world cup finals. Can be so boring, frustrating and even angering to watch. I hated seeing TFC play that way last year and can't wait to see a new style. I can even wait through a little while longer of lacking results to see a long term implementation of a positive style of play.

ExiledRed
03-15-2011, 07:17 PM
Luckily we're going to swap Preki's anti-football for the 'dutch style'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-final-johan-cruyff-holland

Ron Manager
03-15-2011, 07:21 PM
Luckily we're going to swap Preki's anti-football for the 'dutch style'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-final-johan-cruyff-holland

That was a disgraceful performance by the Dutch.

TFCRegina
03-15-2011, 07:28 PM
That was a disgraceful performance by the Dutch.

But they had all the elements to make a good Karate movie!

Kaz
03-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Lets review Preki for a sec.
At Chivas, they had a coach build the team while Preki was the assistant he took that team and did very well playing in a MLS that was different then today, playing a number game, and with a team that was pre-Gel'd. They finished top by points but in a playoff situation where each game counts his systems issues showed up.

Each year Chivas' league performance got worse and still did poorly in all other Competitions that requires winning in each game. Chivas and Preki agreed to part ways.

Mo picked him up with a team in need of work, let a bunch of guys go including one that left Chivas because of Preki, and left TFC because of Preki. Preki did little to work on our Forwards development resulting in no strike team ever developing between our forwards, and Preki kept changing the line up each game. As he seems to want fresh bodies to run up and down the field playing a defensive minded game (which results in a Low goals scored a game, and low goals scored against unless you have a strong gel'd strike team)

This as the season went on mixed with Preki being an ass, left the locker room angry which further hurt on Pitch performance.

Preki wasn't out to score goals he was out to score points by playing to tie the game in a nil nil with the hope that a mistake or opportunity would result in a goal lead often enough to get enough 3 point games to stay up in the standings he wanted the boys to score but he wanted clean sheets more. His "system" wasn't about scoring or winning it was about not losing. Prekiball is playing not to lose, Anti-football is playing to get a point but not attempting to win. Anti-football is stupid, it's why Montreal lost in their Champions league bid, and any coach using in a meaningful game should be flogged.

Prekiball is worse because it's a season long version of that. It's horrible football, that belongs only in lower leagues, and it fails now because MLS and even D2 in North America is almost too good for it. I would be surprised if Preki signs with another MLS team.

Oldtimer
03-16-2011, 07:23 AM
^ Therefore it is up to us as supporters to allow Winter that time, and not become frustrated. Christ isn't that what supporting a Football team is all about. Let's not be just a bunch of Bandwagon jumpers, on and off. Just stay on the tracks.

That's the point of my thread (it's not about Preki). It looks unlikely to have a winning year this year. However, better times will be ahead because this plan suits MLS 2.0.