cann leaves camp

[drexel10]

Hey I play against his agent tonight, I'll ask him what happened :)

[Roogsy]

Not debating that our reputation has taken a very big hit over all this Mo business, Roogsy. I do believe that with Mo gone it will improve though.

As for the subtle nuances of contract negotiating, I 'm aware that the aspect of trust and gray areas is huge in these situations and that it is not all black and white.
I don't however, think that a player who has chosen not have representation and then makes a verbal deal has very much to complain about. It's just incredibly careless.

Not trying to say that it doesn't hurt us somewhat to not honour Mo's promises. I just don't think we should start handing out money to people over conversations they had in the tunnel after practice.

I don't disagree with these points at all.

What I do believe is that the club should start mending it's reputation.

[Whoop]

Well, the Cann and DeRo example shows that sometimes it is over promises.

And since sports management is a major part of my business, I'd say it is a part of my "industry".

You're a FIFA certified agent? ;)

I don't see you doing deals on "handshakes" and "promises". LOL

What aspect of sports management are you in though? Do represent any athletes in contract negotiations with the club? Are you part of sports agency? Do you work in the brand imaging department?

[Roogsy]

not likely, because i never judged a players principles at all, and you asked me if i thought i had the right to judge someone else's principles. so clearly you have that right and i don't.

regardless, you feel it's alright to pass judgement on a person's principles as long as it is your judgement. so because you are on the one side, it's fine as long as everyone agrees that management has been unprincipled, but no one has the right to judge cann's principles at all.

you're right, that's not hypocritical in the least.

I will concede this.

I generally don't feel judging someone's principles is acceptable. However, there are instances where the judgement is obvious. There were people here casitgating Cann over his stand as being "unprincipled" where now it's coming out that in fact his position was more principled than we first knew. And I knew that a guy like Cann would not make such a move for no reason.

However, I have indeed passed judgement on the way the team has managed their affairs. I think the evidence is conclusive. That they have broken promises to fans and players is pretty much a fact at this point. To me that is sufficient to come to a conclusion about their principles in how they manage business.

Perhaps my statement should have read more along the lines of not passing judgement until there is evidence and maybe I should make that clarification now. But to me, the verdict on Mo is in and the verdict on TFC is in as well. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. If you think there is the possibility to judge them favourably, then I'd be happy to hear where I may have been presumptive.

[Roogsy]

You're a FIFA certified agent? ;)

I don't see you doing deals on "handshakes" and "promises". LOL

What aspect of sports management are you in though? Do represent any athletes in contract negotiations with the club? Are you part of sports agency? Do you work in the brand imaging department?

Represent athletes? No. But I advise on contract negotiations.
Do I work for a sports agency? No. But I consult for agencies.
Do I work with brand imaging? No, but my agency clients are also brand managers.

Is that enough credibility for you?

And the leagues I have covered include the more professional leagues than MLS. That's why when I say MLS is amateur, I really, really mean it. Compared to the CFL, NHL and NBA where I have done business, MLS has a long way to go.

[Whoop]

I don't disagree with these points at all.

What I do believe is that the club should start mending it's reputation.

But isn't the club doing that?

They fired Mo.

And it appears the club is renegotiating with DeRo.

And it renegotiated with Cann.

In both instances they weren't obligated to.

But at the same time the team now has to take a stand that it won't be taken advantage of.

I mean, what's to stop Frei and Attakora from making claims that they were promised x amount of money in a new contract too?

[Whoop]

Represent athletes? No. But I advise on contract negotiations.
Do I work for a sports agency? No. But I consult for agencies.
Do I work with brand imaging? No, but my agency clients are also brand managers.

Is that enough credibility for you?

And the leagues I have covered include the more professional leagues than MLS. That's why when I say MLS is amateur, I really, really mean it. Compared to the CFL, NHL and NBA where I have done business, MLS has a long way to go.

Fair enough.

I just don't see many verbal promises being made when it comes to salaries or contract amounts.

I can see it when it comes to some smaller details. The examples I've been privy to were cased of "don't worry we'll take care of it" when it came to things such as tickets, accommodations, travel, transportation, etc. but never on a monetary figure or even bonuses.

And I can see MLS being amateurish based on some of the player representation alone! LOL

[Roogsy]

But isn't the club doing that?

They fired Mo.

And it appears the club is renegotiating with DeRo.

And it renegotiated with Cann.

In both instances they weren't obligated to.

But at the same time the team now has to take a stand that it won't be taken advantage of.

I mean, what's to stop Frei and Attakora from making claims that they were promised x amount of money in a new contract too?


Fair enough.

I just don't see many verbal promises being made when it comes to salaries or contract amounts.

I can see it when it comes to some smaller details. The examples I've been privy to were cased of "don't worry we'll take care of it" when it came to things such as tickets, accommodations, travel, transportation, etc. but never on a monetary figure or even bonuses.


Actually I don't disagree with either post. However, since clubs obviously do make "off the record" promises, it's not so unbelievable that they would go beyond what is "traditional" and cover monetary compensation. At least it's not surprising when you are run by Maurice Johnston.

By the way, my position in all this has never been to "overpay" either. It has always been that renegotiation is possible (and even necessary despite some contrary opinions on this board) and that players should be paid fairly. In my opinion, the 160k is fair to Cann (more than fair actually) HOWEVER his problem was that he was underpaid last year with the promise that this year he would be made up. That's what he is trying to deal with. Hopefully the club will not punish him for Mo's mistakes but Cann overplayed his hand and may come out losing even more and that should upset us as fans instead of siding with the team and taking advantage of Cann even more than he already was.

[brandrews]

I will concede this.

I generally don't feel judging someone's principles is acceptable. However, there are instances where the judgement is obvious. There were people here casitgating Cann over his stand as being "unprincipled" where now it's coming out that in fact his position was more principled than we first knew. And I knew that a guy like Cann would not make such a move for no reason.

However, I have indeed passed judgement on the way the team has managed their affairs. I think the evidence is conclusive. That they have broken promises to fans and players is pretty much a fact at this point. To me that is sufficient to come to a conclusion about their principles in how they manage business.

Perhaps my statement should have read more along the lines of not passing judgement until there is evidence and maybe I should make that clarification now. But to me, the verdict on Mo is in and the verdict on TFC is in as well. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. If you think there is the possibility to judge them favourably, then I'd be happy to hear where I may have been presumptive.

haha...no i'd agree that mo and the tfc fo have proved themselves to be not trustworthy.

i understand cann's postition, but he handled the situation poorly, in my opinion.

i do find it to be hysterical that after all of the shenanigans surrounding this, as well as dero's situation in the summer, it is likely to just kind of fade as the season gets underway.

[Whoop]

This whole scenario reminds me of the NCAA and scholarships.

A university will go to an athlete and say "we'll offer you a full ride worth $200,000", the implication being 4 years @ $50,000/year and you think wow awesome.

So the athlete and school make a verbal agreement. However, until a LOI is signed, the athlete and the school can pull the offer.

So the athlete signs a letter of intent.

The smart one knows that athletic scholarships are actually a series of one year contracts that the school can pull at any time based on a variety of factors.

The less informed one is the one that's shocked/surprised when the university pulls the scholarship after 1 or 2 years and says "we like you to stay but if you want to, you'll have to pay your own way."

So the player says screw you. In the meantime another school offers up to cover the remainder of the scholarship but in order to do so, the player can't play for a year due to transfer rules.

The point in all of this? Be informed.

[Shakes McQueen]

Actually I don't disagree with either post. However, since clubs obviously do make "off the record" promises, it's not so unbelievable that they would go beyond what is "traditional" and cover monetary compensation. At least it's not surprising when you are run by Maurice Johnston.

By the way, my position in all this has never been to "overpay" either. It has always been that renegotiation is possible (and even necessary despite some contrary opinions on this board) and that players should be paid fairly. In my opinion, the 160k is fair to Cann (more than fair actually) HOWEVER his problem was that he was underpaid last year with the promise that this year he would be made up. That's what he is trying to deal with. Hopefully the club will not punish him for Mo's mistakes but Cann overplayed his hand and may come out losing even more and that should upset us as fans instead of siding with the team and taking advantage of Cann even more than he already was.

This is reasonable. I can get behind this opinion.

You've won over a convert (to an extent). :D

- Scott

[Roogsy]

This is reasonable. I can get behind this opinion.

You've won over a convert (to an extent). :D

- Scott


:lol:

I should quit while I am ahead!

[Pookie]

Any discussion of price fairness though has to take into account the year and circumstances under which the deal was signed. It is extremely hard to look at 2 players, one with a contract and one who is effectively in position to get a new contract and make a comparison.

You simply cannot compare a player's worth in present day dollars with a player that signed his deal years ago. It is a cursory view at best.

It would be like trying to sell/buy a house and using the prices from 3 years ago as a comparison.

The house can only really be compared to other houses on the market at the current time. It's price will be impacted by conditions such as the economy, the number of houses available, the interest rates and other factors. The price you settle on is a function of these conditions in the present day, not what the guy beside your house paid for it years ago.

In the MLS example, Cann's contract worth needs to be compared to what other guys of his age/skill set, who are currently on the market, are getting.

Given the cap has increased, one could argue Cann should be able to capture some of that upside.

Let's also factor in supply and demand. Could TFC replace him and at what cost? If there are no available replacements, his value is very high. If there are a ton of defenders of similar skill and the average contract value being handed out is $100k his value is around this mark.

So, what is Cann's worth relative to other MLS defenders that signed this year?

[rocker]

So, what is Cann's worth relative to other MLS defenders that signed this year?

we have to wait until the union releases the numbers. but it would be interesting to know.

[bgnewf]

Adrian Cann Returns

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/03/adrian-returns/

Adrian Cann ends his holdout and returns to TFC, And Aron Winter demands an apology, & ironically the guy that ended Cann's season via injury in 2010 is acquired via trade on the same day.

Thoughts on yet another interesting day for Toronto FC.

[iansmcl]

That's not ironic, it's coincidental!

/grammar

[Roogsy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

Jne9t8sHpUc

[Detroit_TFC]

Gareth Wheeler reports via Twitter that Cann delivered a heartfelt apology to the team and the fans. Winter says that he's had a good conversation with Cann and they are now looking into the future and not the past.

[Suds]

Gareth Wheeler reports via Twitter that Cann delivered a heartfelt apology to the team and the fans. Winter says that he's had a good conversation with Cann and they are now looking into the future and not the past.


Good. Time to move forward.

Whatever side of the debate anyone is on I think Winter, for his part, handled the situation quite professionally. That is so refreshing to see when we look at the history of how players have been treated by past "management".

Cann manned-up and made the apology. Not always easy to do and I commend him for showing his professionalism in doing so.

Hopefully we will see less of these situations in the future with TFC being more professional is dealing with players.

[drexel10]

Winter doesn't deal with any of this stuff. I talked with Cann's agent last night and got the scoop and Winter does not deal with any of this.

[jabbronies]

The apology is on TFC TV:
http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=2856

[boban]

The apology is on TFC TV:
http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=2856
Big Wheeler asking the questions.

Man he ate some crow in that apology.
Got some respect for the guy.

[sully]

Fair play to Cann.

[Derko]

Now Cann we move on and play Football!!

[Wull]

Big Wheeler asking the questions.

Man he ate some crow in that apology.
Got some respect for the guy.

Plus one, he's a fantastic actor if he was faking it but I'm hoping everyone can move on to other things now like some more signings and a period of stability within the club.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Now Cann we move on and play Football!!

Let's fucking have it!!!!!!

[Pigfynn]

I believe Adrian with what he said.

Me thinks he has had some bad advice and he pursued that advice.

The guy wants to play footie for us and that's more than we can say for alot of people hahahaahaha we should be happy there's still some of these guys left lol

Cheers!

[flamehawk]

Really sucks though if Adrian is stuck with the crappy contract from Year 1. I think he's getting fucked over, dumb decision by him or not, if he was promised a certain amount by Mo and isn't getting it. I trust him when he said he left on principle. Well, I hope this can all be left behind and he gets a fair contract/can put his mind into playing well for the team.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

I agree with the assumption that Cann's actions were a product of bad advice. I appreciate that he apologized to the fans and the team, but I could have lived without him doing on video like that. When's De Ro's apology airing?

[Blowing Bubbles]

Really sucks though if Adrian is stuck with the crappy contract from Year 1. I think he's getting fucked over, dumb decision by him or not, if he was promised a certain amount by Mo and isn't getting it. I trust him when he said he left on principle. Well, I hope this can all be left behind and he gets a fair contract/can put his mind into playing well for the team.

he did get a new contract. he's making 125k now. he walked out wanting it to go up to 175 but TFC said we'll do 160 but you have to sign now. since he walked the 160 is off the table and he's back to making 125.

I still think 125k is ok. I mean we have to pay Nana and he's going to want to make more than Cann ..... if we gave Cann 175 then Nana is going to want 225 ....... and guess what, Chad Marshall makes 250 and he's miles better.

[Blowing Bubbles]

And I have no issues with Cann at all now that he went on camera and threw himself under the bus like that ...... not an easy thing to do but i have full respect for him now.

[Pookie]

Good for Cann to admit to making a mistake.

On the plus side, the message to players is quite clear.

[Fushida]

I agree with the assumption that Cann's actions were a product of bad advice. I appreciate that he apologized to the fans and the team, but I could have lived without him doing on video like that. When's De Ro's apology airing?

not holding my breath on this one.

[ManUtd4ever]

Good on Cann for manning up and apologizing. I gained some respect for him. Hopefully he won't let this issue affect his performance on the pitch.

As for DeRo, he did issue an apology through the media for the cheque signing incident. DeRo never walked off the team...

[flamehawk]

he did get a new contract. he's making 125k now. he walked out wanting it to go up to 175 but TFC said we'll do 160 but you have to sign now. since he walked the 160 is off the table and he's back to making 125.

I still think 125k is ok. I mean we have to pay Nana and he's going to want to make more than Cann ..... if we gave Cann 175 then Nana is going to want 225 ....... and guess what, Chad Marshall makes 250 and he's miles better.

Ya, I think 160k is more than reasonable, but it's really poor management for the club to back out if 175k was verbally promised the first year. Like Cann's agent said, its a matter of principle. The club really needs to get regain a really poor reputation from when it was managed by Mo, but it doesn't really help when they continue to do this.

[JonO]

Ya, I think 160k is more than reasonable, but it's really poor management for the club to back out if 175k was verbally promised the first year.
Do we have any confirmation that he was promised 175k or is that speculation based on the situation? Personally, I don't think his base salary would be "topped up" to $175 to cover for last year's shortcoming. Rather it would be in some form of bonus. Once you bump up the base salary, it's difficult to come down... for both sides.

Anyway, what's done it done. It was a stupid move to leave the team, but he has come back and apologized, so good for him. Let's move forward and try not to suck too much this year!

[Kooper]

Good on Cann for manning up and apologizing. I gained some respect for him. Hopefully he won't let this issue affect his performance on the pitch.

As for DeRo, he did issue an apology through the media for the cheque signing incident. DeRo never walked off the team...

No I think he took a plane to Glasgow to train without permission. It would have been a long walk.

[ManUtd4ever]

No I think he took a plane to Glasgow to train without permission. It would have been a long walk.

LOL. Seriously? Again?

DeRo never walked out on the team. There was a misunderstanding with interim management. DeRo thought he had permission, and was eventually granted permission to trial. Winter denied a loan request, and DeRo immediately reported to camp. End of story.

[Pookie]

I guess DeRo really hasn't done anything specific to apologize for.

Using the team's press conference with new management as a personal soap box to threaten walking out on his team isn't exactly the same as actually doing it. Of course, it creates tension, potentially hurts team performance, attempts to undermine the new coaching staff, and is generally a selfish, douchbaggy kind of move for any team member, let alone the supposed captain, but what's he going to do, apologize for being himself?

The baggage comes with this guy wherever he goes. And hopefully, he goes somewhere else soon.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'm not getting into the DeRo debate again. I'm not going to change the opinions of his detractors. Hate away.

I never condoned DeRo's actions in the past, but as far as I'm concerned, he apologized for the only crime he ever committed. Other than that, he is what he is, and as long as he contributes to the success of the club on the pitch and isn't a distraction in the locker room, I won't vilify him.

It's been quite obvious over the course of the preseason that this team is far more dangerous with DeRo in the lineup.

[flamehawk]

Do we have any confirmation that he was promised 175k or is that speculation based on the situation? Personally, I don't think his base salary would be "topped up" to $175 to cover for last year's shortcoming. Rather it would be in some form of bonus. Once you bump up the base salary, it's difficult to come down... for both sides.

Anyway, what's done it done. It was a stupid move to leave the team, but he has come back and apologized, so good for him. Let's move forward and try not to suck too much this year!

I think in one article, his agent said that he was promised $15k more. So ya, assuming that information is correct, bad form by the club.

[Pookie]

It's been quite obvious over the course of the preseason that this team is far more dangerous with DeRo in the lineup.

Why? No one else can take a penalty kick?

[ManUtd4ever]

Why? No one else can take a penalty kick?

He set up the play that led to the penalty kick in the first place. Other than that, his mere presence on the forward unit opens up space for other players, the team creates more opportunities when he is on the pitch, and he is still the best offensive player on the roster at this point in time. If your disdain for him as a person blinds you to his obvious skills on the pitch then I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, I don't want to get into this again. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Pookie]

Agree to disagree. He's got skills, that's why he is paid so well.

At the same time, 2 years of DeRo and 2 more years of missing the playoffs. He brings baggage (selfish play, off field leadership shortcomings, etc) and so far, hasn't demonstrated an ability to lead the team anywhere.

My frustrations comes from playing high level competitive sport and having the Captain title put upon me by my teammates. I know what a selfish personality can do to a team and shudder at the thought of a player who acts like this on the roster, let alone having the Captain title.

"Attitude reflects Leadership" ("Remember the Titans") and while no success is ever guaranteed, a team that respects each other, believes in the coaching staff and each other stands a much better chance at success than a team that has warring factions within.

I don't see DeRo ever contributing to a positive culture within this team given what he has displayed in his time here. Should he not change, addition by subtraction might be the best thing for this team.

[Beach_Red]

My frustrations comes from playing high level competitive sport and having the Captain title put upon me by my teammates. I know what a selfish personality can do to a team and shudder at the thought of a player who acts like this on the roster, let alone having the Captain title.



What the whole DeRo-Cochrane issue (and to a lesser extent the Cann issue) really pointed out is that MLS is still not "high level." It's full of these power struggles and personality issues between players and management because both sides are looking to get to a higher level in their careers and MLS is either a stopping off point or a fall-back. No one (or at least not many) players or management are fully committed to MLS - and we don't really expect them to be, but we do want them to fake it better.

[Pookie]

Well, maybe I over-stated playing "high level" if you are comparing my background with MLS players :)

Point taken though. MLS is a stepping stone. If these players didn't have flaws, talent and/or character, they probably wouldn't be here. For young players, I see it as a place to learn more and success is found by moving on. For older players, they are either on the downside of their careers and looking to extend an income or they have talent but are missing some connections between the ears to put it all together in a marketable package.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, but not just the players, the same applies to management. No one expects Winter to be here much longer than his three year contract if he does well. So far he has been very professional which is great, but it's also what means he'll be gone in three years. Again, that's fine if he gets replaced by someone else who has the right professional attiutude.

Of course, with no salary cap on management that doesn't really have to be the case.

[Roogsy]

Agree to disagree. He's got skills, that's why he is paid so well.

At the same time, 2 years of DeRo and 2 more years of missing the playoffs. He brings baggage (selfish play, off field leadership shortcomings, etc) and so far, hasn't demonstrated an ability to lead the team anywhere.

My frustrations comes from playing high level competitive sport and having the Captain title put upon me by my teammates. I know what a selfish personality can do to a team and shudder at the thought of a player who acts like this on the roster, let alone having the Captain title.

"Attitude reflects Leadership" ("Remember the Titans") and while no success is ever guaranteed, a team that respects each other, believes in the coaching staff and each other stands a much better chance at success than a team that has warring factions within.

I don't see DeRo ever contributing to a positive culture within this team given what he has displayed in his time here. Should he not change, addition by subtraction might be the best thing for this team.

Two things.

1) This is a Cann thread. Try sticking to the topic.

2) There are a whole lot of factless assumptions and baseless accusations in this comment about DeRo. You're like a dog on a bone. Let it go already.

[MG42]

Two things.

1) This is a Cann thread. Try sticking to the topic.

2) There are a whole lot of factless assumptions and baseless accusations in this comment about DeRo. You're like a dog on a bone. Let it go already.

I can't believe I am reading this comment from you Roogsy! :lol:

[Pookie]

Factless assumptions? Ok, we can stick with the factbased argument of 2 years of DeRo, 0 years of playoffs... perhaps time for a change. But I digress. On to the topic:

Isn't the thread about holding out on contracts? And in the 27 pages, I guess I'm the first to see a link between the 2 situations? But ok, we can just discuss the one situation which ended with an apology, humble pie and a focus on moving ahead and accepting the contract terms.

[Roogsy]

Not really. When a topic doesn't come up, I don't bring it up. But if a topic comes up, I participate. Two different things. I view myself as pretty consistent.

[Pookie]

^ Yes, but not just the players, the same applies to management. No one expects Winter to be here much longer than his three year contract if he does well. So far he has been very professional which is great, but it's also what means he'll be gone in three years. Again, that's fine if he gets replaced by someone else who has the right professional attiutude.

Of course, with no salary cap on management that doesn't really have to be the case.

I'm not so sure that it would be the same case with Management. I guess it all depends on his long term goal. Think about JK, what is a guy with his pedigree doing consulting for lowly MLS teams when he could effectively own ply his trade anywhere?

For him, it probably has more to do with establishing a post-playing career legacy and having a choice of lifestyle (California is a decent place to live).

Who knows what Winter's long term goals are but I don't think we can assume he ultimately wants a top tier coaching gig. As you suggest, a person could make a handsome living as the head of an MLS Club if the owners choose to make it so.

[Pachuco]

Factless assumptions? Ok, we can stick with the factbased argument of 2 years of DeRo, 0 years of playoffs... perhaps time for a change. But I digress. On to the topic:

Isn't the thread about holding out on contracts? And in the 27 pages, I guess I'm the first to see a link between the 2 situations? But ok, we can just discuss the one situation which ended with an apology, humble pie and a focus on moving ahead and accepting the contract terms.

So I guess we should get rid of Nana and Frei as well. Since you know, they haven't lead us to the playoffs yet. :facepalm:

[Pookie]

^ Geez, you mean Nana takes up over $300k in cap space? Cann too?

:facepalm:

[Pachuco]

^ Geez, you mean Nana takes up over $300k in cap space? Cann too?

:facepalm:

So if you take up 300K in cap space, and your team doesn't make the playoffs, it's all your fault. I mean really?

[Roogsy]

Obviously the guy who takes up 300k in cap space is more influential than the guys who make up the 1.9mill in cap space left. It's not up to them, it's up the guy who makes the 3rd most on the team. :D

[Pookie]

So if you take up 300K in cap space, and your team doesn't make the playoffs, it's all your fault. I mean really?

If you are building a team and have over $300k invested in 1 player but are not getting the results, do you not consider whether spending that +$300k elsewhere (perhaps amongst 2-3 different players) might be a better spend?

You know, like countless other teams have done in sport all over the world?

The 2nd part of that is whether we'd be better positioned for better results if we had a captain that spoke like this:

"I never really thought about my individual accomplishments" - Mark Messier.

Anyways, it was said that we need to stay on topic so on the topic of a player making a bad decision, owning up to it, appearing to commit to the team and honouring the terms of his agreement, hats off to Mr Cann for ending an ugly situation quickly and without any lingering doubt.

[Pachuco]

If you are building a team and have over $300k invested in 1 player but are not getting the results, do you not consider whether spending that +$300k elsewhere (perhaps amongst 2-3 different players) might be a better spend?

You know, like countless other teams have done in sport all over the world?

The 2nd part of that is whether we'd be better positioned for better results if we had a captain that spoke like this:

"I never really thought about my individual accomplishments" - Mark Messier.

Anyways, it was said that we need to stay on topic so on the topic of a player making a bad decision, owning up to it, appearing to commit to the team and honouring the terms of his agreement, hats off to Mr Cann for ending an ugly situation quickly and without any lingering doubt.

Your first argument really is absurd. It isn't even a coherent argument that I can bother responding too. Surely you realize there is a heck of alot you aren't considering when the basis of your argument is: "We didn't make the playoffs with our best players, so let's just dump them and get some cheaper players instead".

There is so much I could say but I just can't be bothered.

[v00d00daddy]

What is lost in all of this shit is that Cann walked out on the team.

The team saw it as unacceptable. (so did a lot of supporters)

Cann apologized and now all is well.

It worked out properly.

Player steps out of line and the club puts him back in and puts it in the past.

For all of you defending Cann walking out....maybe you should go scold him for making you look stupid. He's admitted his mistake...maybe you guys should too.

He KNEW it was wrong when he did it. You don't walk out on your team. End of.

Apart from Cann coming back, another bonus is that players now know where Winter stands. He's in charge and he has standards. I'm very happy to see this.

[Pachuco]

What is lost in all of this shit is that Cann walked out on the team.

The team saw it as unacceptable. (so did a lot of supporters)

Cann apologized and now all is well.

It worked out properly.

Player steps out of line and the club puts him back in and puts it in the past.

For all of you defending Cann walking out....maybe you should go scold him for making you look stupid. He's admitted his mistake...maybe you guys should too.

He KNEW it was wrong when he did it. You don't walk out on your team. End of.

Apart from Cann coming back, another bonus is that players now know where Winter stands. He's in charge and he has standards. I'm very happy to see this.

Well, considering most everyone agreed that he didn't deal with this the optimal way I can only be left to wonder who you are calling out.

[Pookie]

Your first argument really is absurd. It isn't even a coherent argument that I can bother responding too. Surely you realize there is a heck of alot you aren't considering when the basis of your argument is: "We didn't make the playoffs with our best players, so let's just dump them and get some cheaper players instead".

There is so much I could say but I just can't be bothered.

Next time, could you be not be bothered enough to reply in less than a paragraph?

Lots goes into defining "best players". Unfortunately, some people define that exclusively by goals for. By that definition, DeRo and Jeff Cunningham are the best players a team could hope for.

[Roogsy]

For all of you defending Cann walking out....maybe you should go scold him for making you look stupid. He's admitted his mistake...maybe you guys should too.



I defended him and to be honest, I still do. Cann was in a tough spot and thus made a tough decision. It didn't go his way. TFC played hard ball. I don't think it was the wrong play as a principle, I think it was the wrong play for him because he didn't have enough leverage.

As for walking out on your team not being the "right thing to do"...well...so is making promises you don't keep. This team owes Cann and it should make it up to him. If they don't, well Cann may have had to apologize because he had to, but that's probably to save his job and his livelihood not because he wanted to.

Nobody wanted Cann to leave training camp, but instead of backing him into a corner, maybe the team should have dealt with him honourably in the first place. And we're back to the fundamental reason why I don't blame Cann nor condemn him for doing what he did. If this was simply greed, I would agree with most of you, but it wasn't...he was fighting back against an organization that was breaking their promise to him. And for that, I don't feel he owed me an apology. When I saw the video, I felt sorry for the dude because it's obvious he has been beaten and made to beg for his job, something I feel he's earned.

If you guys feel validated by his apology, congrats. I take no pleasure in watching a player I respect humilated by a club bullying him into an apology. Granted, he decided to play the hardball game with them and got burnt...and thus, he brought it upon himself in a way...but none of you guys have offered a solution to his dilemma other than "play out your contract" which seems to be a default rationale around this board and the reason why none of you would make good agents nor business managers.

And congratulate yourselves for taking the winning side. While you are at it, you should probably defend this club for the season ticket price hikes and other instances of them taking advantage of those generating revenue for them. Because standing up to the team is obviously the wrong thing to do.

[Roogsy]

Next time, could you be not be bothered enough to reply in less than a paragraph?

Lots goes into defining "best players". Unfortunately, some people define that exclusively by goals for. By that definition, DeRo and Jeff Cunningham are the best players a team could hope for.



Let me ask you a question...who do YOU think has been the best player for TFC in the past two seasons?

[Pookie]

Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.

[Suds]

I defended him and to be honest, I still do. Cann was in a tough spot and thus made a tough decision. It didn't go his way. TFC played hard ball. I don't think it was the wrong play as a principle, I think it was the wrong play for him because he didn't have enough leverage.

As for walking out on your team not being the "right thing to do"...well...so is making promises you don't keep. This team owes Cann and it should make it up to him. If they don't, well Cann may have had to apologize because he had to, but that's probably to save his job and his livelihood not because he wanted to.

Nobody wanted Cann to leave training camp, but instead of backing him into a corner, maybe the team should have dealt with him honourably in the first place. And we're back to the fundamental reason why I don't blame Cann nor condemn him for doing what he did. If this was simply greed, I would agree with most of you, but it wasn't...he was fighting back against an organization that was breaking their promise to him. And for that, I don't feel he owed me an apology. When I saw the video, I felt sorry for the dude because it's obvious he has been beaten and made to beg for his job, something I feel he's earned.

If you guys feel validated by his apology, congrats. I take no pleasure in watching a pleasure I respect humilated by a club bullying him into an apology. Granted, he decided to play the hardball game with them and got burnt...and thus, he brought it upon himself in a way...but none of you guys have offered a solution to his dilemma other than "play out your contract" which seems to be a default rationale around this board and the reason why none of you would make good agents nor business managers.

And congratulate yourselves for taking the winning side. While you are at it, you should probably defend this club for the season ticket price hikes and other instances of them taking advantage of those generating revenue for them. Because standing up to the team is obviously the wrong thing to do.


I guess we should all conceed to your prowess as a business manager because none of us know better. Thanks for showing all us uneducated fools the light. :rolleyes:

[Roogsy]

I am not saying I know all, I am not even saying I would know what to do in Cann's particular situation which was particularly difficult...but doing nothing? Yeah...sounds like a great way to get a better deal for yourself or at the very least getting the team to honour their word. We're gonna have to add that to legal and commerce curriculum.

[Roogsy]

Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.

Just to clarify, in your opinion, Frei and Attakora have been TFC's best players the past 2 years? Nobody else has been better?

[Pookie]

IMO yes. Solid over the last 2 years and given their age I would go further in saying that they would be assets that would be hard to replace. Both have future potential transfer value

Where are you going with this?

[Chevy]

Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.

+1. Frei has been our best player day in and day out over the last two seasons. Period.

[TorCanSoc]

I understand all that stuff about walking out, had good offers but declined them. It happens in sports... but man that interview was a train wreck. Someone in their communications dept should have said, maybe we keep this one as a written statement from Cann's camp and be done with it.

I would rather watch baby seals being clubbed than that kind of public humiliation for what amounts his part in the ugly business side of the sport. I felt like hugging the dude. Score one for man'ing up. He's got my respect as a human being, never mind a footballer.

Can anyone think of a public flogging like that in their own BUSINESS lives?

[Brooker]

Agreed. Frei has been our best player.


I guess we should all conceed to your prowess as a business manager because none of us know better. Thanks for showing all us uneducated fools the light. :rolleyes:

He did the same stuff in the DeRo thread. Don't bother. He's right, you're wrong. No inbetween. He also said we'd make terrible agents in that thread, aswell. You're in good company. :)

[Pachuco]

Next time, could you be not be bothered enough to reply in less than a paragraph?

Lots goes into defining "best players". Unfortunately, some people define that exclusively by goals for. By that definition, DeRo and Jeff Cunningham are the best players a team could hope for.

To be precise on what I was saying before. Your argument is that if you don't make the playoffs with a player costing you 350K towards the cap, then you should get rid of the player and trade him in for cheaper options. That was your argument. And that's why it's absurd.

I don't believe you look at Dero subjectively anyways. I believe your hate on for his personality clouds your judgement.

[Roogsy]

To be precise on what I was saying before. Your argument is that if you don't make the playoffs with a player costing you 350K towards the cap, then you should get rid of the player and trade him in for cheaper options. That was your argument. And that's why it's absurd.

I don't believe you look at Dero subjectively anyways. I believe your hate on for his personality clouds your judgement.

And this is the reason I wanted him to commit to his position about Frei and Attakora being the best players TFC has had in the last 2 seasons, so that he wouldn't go back and revamp his story.

So let's see, the ONLY player on TFC to have even come close to producing individually successful seasons in his position comparatively speaking is DeRo. I've made his stats well-known in his thread so I won't dwell on it. But suffice to say, almost no player in the league has had 2 back to back seasons as successful as DeRo.

Neither Frei, Attakora or to make the argument (since this is his thread) Cann have had statistically successful seasons. In their relative positions, they don't lead nor do they come close to leading in any meaningful stats. Save percentages, blocks, goals against, etc. etc. Despite the mind-blowingly boring, negative soccer we played last season we still didn't lead the league in defensive measures, neither as a unit nor as individuals making their stats look even worse. So in what way exactly has Frei, Attakora or Cann been our "best" players since they couldn't even stand out in their relative positions against other players in the league? What exactly made them our "best" players when looking at them objectively, they were quite possibly considered very average when compared to the rest of the league?

Are we so focused to taking away credit from our truly best player because we don't like him, even though he was the only real positive aspect we've had on this team in 2 years, that we choose to award and give credit to players, who we love because they are ours but in real terms are simply average and other than Frei may in fact struggle to get first-team action on other teams? Really? That's requires a whole new level of ridiculous justification.

[J .]

lol DeRo is a good player, his actions betrayed the club and the fans. Similar to Canns actions. The diff is that DeRo played it in the media and during games. Tried to be whatever about it, then half assed said it was the wrong move.

No doubt DeRo is the best player on the team and the team hinges on his contributions. Still doesnt mean what he did was right.

[Roogsy]

lol DeRo is a good player, his actions betrayed the club and the fans. Similar to Canns actions. The diff is that DeRo played it in the media and during games. Tried to be whatever about it, then half assed said it was the wrong move.

No doubt DeRo is the best player on the team and the team hinges on his contributions. Still doesnt mean what he did was right.

And I have no problems with this opinion. My problem is with people who are deluded enough to think Attakora and Cann are top-level players even in MLS but DeRo is expendable on TFC.

Cann should have taken the 160k offered and ran with it. Considering all the comments in this thread, it seems more than fair in terms of his worth in this salary capped team. It's too bad Mo muddied up the waters with his dishonesty. As for Mo's promises, why do I get the feeling this won't be the last "Mo" contract we have problems with?

[Pookie]

To be precise on what I was saying before. Your argument is that if you don't make the playoffs with a player costing you 350K towards the cap, then you should get rid of the player and trade him in for cheaper options. That was your argument. And that's why it's absurd.



Hold on now, I didn't claim that as a generic blanket statement for any situation past, present or future. If a team sucks, you don't necessarily rid yourself of the most expensive player (capwise he is at the max, even for DPs). Some expensive players are worth keeping.

But if your team sucks and you have an expensive player who is into his 30's, who disappeared from June through September of last year, has no transfer potential (remember, you earn allocation money for selling players) and who has been nothing but a S.O.B, you look to move this player and attempt to "rebuild" your roster using the cap flexibility provided by the move.

In all sports, this happens with older players and big contracts. He's a good player, some might even say great. But clearly, there is a tipping point with him and whether that factor is age, salary, baggage or a combination thereof, to think of him as a Red for life is a completely silly way to manage a team considering those circumstances.

[Pookie]

So let's see, the ONLY player on TFC to have even come close to producing individually successful seasons in his position comparatively speaking is DeRo. I've made his stats well-known in his thread so I won't dwell on it. But suffice to say, almost no player in the league has had 2 back to back seasons as successful as DeRo.



Back to "stats" as the only measure of a player's worth, eh?

Because statisitically speaking, Jeff Cunningham would be comparable to DeRosario and with his $150k salary at Columbus, a less expensive cap option. Do stats guide the decision?

Statisically speaking, Maurice Edu had just 5 goals in 38 appearances for TFC. Clearly, he had value beyond stats and has been our only successful transfer, earning the club allocation money in the process.

If you want to build the team around an aging player based on his past statistics go right ahead. You asked for my opinion on the players.

As for Frei, I don't know how you can downgrade his accomplishments based on his stats. Maybe if DeRo back tracked a little his stats would show a little better...?

IMO, Attakora demonstrates the work ethic needed to be successful as a team and as a player. His on field performance has been consistent, his youth represents potential in both this league and potentially in others. You are expecting a 20-21 year old player to lead the league in stats at his position? Come on.

Why are you holding him to a standard that wouldn't even apply to Edu?

[v00d00daddy]

And congratulate yourselves for taking the winning side. While you are at it, you should probably defend this club for the season ticket price hikes and other instances of them taking advantage of those generating revenue for them. Because standing up to the team is obviously the wrong thing to do.

Defend Cann's move all you want. That's your choice.

But please don't say that siding with the club on the Cann situation is comprable to siding with the club on ticket pricing.

You always wax on and on and on and on poetic about not confusing the issues and going off topic and here you are doing it yourself to save face.

Cann made a mistake. He's admitted as much. You defend his move.

It just shows that debating with you is absolutely useless because you have no intention of being swayed or influenced by other peoples opinions.

You have yours, and you're right..all the time. Even when a guy like Cann himself admitted that he was wrong.

And then you bring up ticket pricing and siding with the club? LOL

[v00d00daddy]

And I have no problems with this opinion. My problem is with people who are deluded enough to think Attakora and Cann are top-level players even in MLS but DeRo is expendable on TFC.


People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

DeRo never has.

[ManUtd4ever]

Voodoo, I agree with your position regarding players that put themselves before the club, regardless of their level of talent.

However, if you acknowledged Cann's apology, why won't you acknowledge DeRo's apology after the cheque signing incident?

Is it because you think DeRo should have apologized again for going to trial in Scotland?

We will never know what really transpired behind the scenes regarding the Celtic debacle but given the way that situation unfolded, we know the club was willing to give DeRo permission and everything else was a result of miscommunication on the part of interim management, DeRo's agent, or both. I don't think DeRo owes anyone an apology for wanting to trial for a storied European club.

[Gazza]

I'll give you Frei, but Attakora over De Rosario? You've got to be kidding.

Dero's been an allstar for us the passed two years yet our defense remained porous and unable to hold leads. I fear for this team now that Frei, Attakora and Cann will be asked to play the ball out of the back this year. The ball will seem like a grenade back there.

[Roogsy]

People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

DeRo never has.


Hopefully someone one day will be able to quantify how exactly a player who takes care of himself or as some put it around here "puts himself before the club" (like somehow most players don't...but whatever) is an indication of how much he contributes to the club. Are you telling me that if DeRo was a more humble person TFC would have won more games last year?

[Roogsy]

You always wax on and on and on and on poetic about not confusing the issues and going off topic and here you are doing it yourself to save face.

Actually in my opinion, the issues are connected. I find it hypocritical that fans believe they can demand and complain about the way the team runs and what the team demands from us like somehow it's ours to tell them what to do but players have no right to demand that their interests be taken care of as well. I honestly believe that if players should suck it up and take it from the team, then so should the fans. This is not about saving face, I think I am being fairly consistent.

[Roogsy]

If you want to build the team around an aging player based on his past statistics go right ahead. You asked for my opinion on the players.

Yeah...I specifically asked who were our best to players these past 2 seasons. If your determination of who our best players have been includes some adivination of how well they will perform in the future, well, who am I to tell you how to generate your own opinion of players right? I mean, future performance is an obvious variable to consider when judging a player's past performance. :thumbsup:

[v00d00daddy]

Hopefully someone one day will be able to quantify how exactly a player who takes care of himself or as some put it around here "puts himself before the club" (like somehow most players don't...but whatever) is an indication of how much he contributes to the club. Are you telling me that if DeRo was a more humble person TFC would have won more games last year?

No...I'm telling you that (to some people) it doesn't matter how many games a team wins when it comes to humility or a lack thereof.

I'll never say that DeRo is a bad player. He's a great player. I just don't like the way he behaved.

It's a personal opinion. It was the straw that broke the camels back for me.

I was growing tired of DeRo before the cheque signing incident. The people around me in our section can attest to that.

Then he pulled the cheque signing and I was done. Especially without a proper apology.

You're in the business (as far as I can tell) of making players (and other people) money. That's why your position as far as proper compensation for players doesn't bug me that much. It's your job. It's what you believe.

What bugs me are the altruistic explanations for all of this shit.

The "I have to put food on the table and put my family first" bullshit.

Everybody has to do that. Everybody faces these worries.

Not everybody handles them the same way.

I lost respect for DeRo and Cann for the way they tried to handle it.

I know it may be over the top but imagine a kid who adores DeRo watching that game last season. What does his mom or dad say when he asks why DeRo was writing in the air?

That's what bugs me. It bugs me enough that I don't care if keeping him (or Cann) makes are team better, talent wise. I see it as a poison and a situation that no good can come from. Their actions have nothing to do with the proper concept of "team".

That's all.

If you or anyone else want to argue the value of player "x" based on a whole bunch of statistics..that's fine. Have at it. That's just not the main issue for me.

[Roogsy]

Fair enough.

[Chevy]

Hopefully someone one day will be able to quantify how exactly a player who takes care of himself or as some put it around here "puts himself before the club" (like somehow most players don't...but whatever) is an indication of how much he contributes to the club. Are you telling me that if DeRo was a more humble person TFC would have won more games last year?

Yes. The argument that DeRo's self-centred actions, attitude, distractions and questionable leadership is somehow unrelated to club performance is pure bollocks.

Look at it this way - you certainly wouldn't pull all that crap with the end goal of HELPING the club, would you? It's counter-intuitive.

[Pookie]

Yeah...I specifically asked who were our best to players these past 2 seasons. If your determination of who our best players have been includes some adivination of how well they will perform in the future, well, who am I to tell you how to generate your own opinion of players right? I mean, future performance is an obvious variable to consider when judging a player's past performance. :thumbsup:

I see if you are feeling like the arugment isn't going your way, you opt to change it?

You made a wonderful attempt at using stats, then somehow backed off of that with the Cunningham reference because, presumably, stats don't tell the whole picture there. You judge Attakora based on stats yet make no comment on the fact that Edu didn't lead in any category either.

Frei and Attakora have been our 2 most consistent, hardworking, team players over the last 2 years. They haven't led in any stats category but they haven't brought baggage that has impacted team performance (IMO) either. Making them, as a sum of their parts, collectively better than any player we've had on the roster in the last 2 seasons.

Future potential? Separate argument but yeah, both are valuable to the franchise and would be hard to replace in terms of everything they bring to your team.

[v00d00daddy]

Voodoo, I agree with your position regarding players that put themselves before the club, regardless of their level of talent.

However, if you acknowledged Cann's apology, why won't you acknowledge DeRo's apology after the cheque signing incident?

Is it because you think DeRo should have apologized again for going to trial in Scotland?


Honestly..it's because I can't believe that a person who is willing to sign an imaginary cheque and then back up his behaviour verbally can be honest when apologizing.

He didn't seem all that upset about what he had done and I'm willing to bet that if you ask him in confidence today, he'd say he still feels the same way.

It's just my opinion but it's the way I see it.

[Roogsy]

I see if you are feeling like the arugment isn't going your way, you opt to change it?


Um really? This was my question:


Just to clarify, in your opinion, Frei and Attakora have been TFC's best players the past 2 years? Nobody else has been better?

How exactly did I change it? I specifically asked about the past 2 seasons and your opinion of who the best player(s) was. You gave me two. Frei and Attakora and then in one of your latest posts pretty much point to the fact that it's because they produce well for their age. Except...that wasn't the question. The question was pretty straight forward, who was our best player the past two seasons? And then you give me this gem:


If you want to build the team around an aging player based on his past statistics go right ahead.

Now THAT is changing the argument.


Future potential? Separate argument but yeah, both are valuable to the franchise and would be hard to replace in terms of everything they bring to your team.

You mean players that will give you average stats? Somehow I don't think they're all that hard to replace. Most would assume that top scorers and perennial all-stars are harder to replace.

[v00d00daddy]

Actually in my opinion, the issues are connected. I find it hypocritical that fans believe they can demand and complain about the way the team runs and what the team demands from us like somehow it's ours to tell them what to do but players have no right to demand that their interests be taken care of as well. I honestly believe that if players should suck it up and take it from the team, then so should the fans. This is not about saving face, I think I am being fairly consistent.

Yeah well, I've never complained about the treatment of the fans by the club...other than the product on the field.

That has always been the only thing that I expect from the club. Put out a good product on the field.

In that sense I guess the two issues are related...in that I believe that Cann and DeRo's actions are counter productive in terms of quality of the team.

Other than that...I don't give a shit what the club does. Ticket prices and supporter treatment are issues easily judged by me.

When I think they're out of line, I'll leave.

Product on the field is another matter.

[Chevy]

@ two posts above^^ I think what you really want to hear is that "All roads lead to DeRo". By the comments on this board the answer to that is no.

Inclusive of all stats and intangibles he has not been our best player over the past two years. Let it go.

[Roogsy]

Yeah well, I've never complained about the treatment of the fans by the club...other than the product on the field.

That has always been the only thing that I expect from the club. Put out a good product on the field.

In that sense I guess the two issues are related...in that I believe that Cann and DeRo's actions are counter productive in terms of quality of the team.

Other than that...I don't give a shit what the club does. Ticket prices and supporter treatment are issues easily judged by me.

When I think they're out of line, I'll leave.

Product on the field is another matter.

Well from that perspective I suppose it's another reason to understand your position. Without meaning to offend, I simply find it to be a deluded position to take. Cann and DeRo's actions are not unique nor are they the only self-interested members of this team. You are judging them based on the fact that they have been forced into these moves by dishonest managers. You can rest assured that given similar circumstances, a majority of the players on this team would probably pull similar moves and decisions.

If your interest is solely on the product on the pitch, then I can't see why you don't understand that a much more cold-hearted approach should be taken. Your desire to have players that meet some elevated standard of conduct is unreasonable. While Whoopee made have a point that at times there are players willing to sacrifice to a certain extent, they are by far in the extreme minority, in any sport and you will most definitely not find them at TFC where believe me, players are already suspicious of management given what has transpired these past 4 seasons and will now not give TFC the benefit of the doubt.

I suppose I lost my rose-coloured glasses years ago when I started seeing the inside of the sports industry. But frankly, I can't believe any player would meet your standard given the test and you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Today it's Cann, yesterday it was DeRo, tomorrow it will most definitely be another player. In the meantime, while you judge players to an unreasonable standard, if things were run your way, you also unecessarily handicap the team by ridding usable players and replacing them with lovely chaps who almost guaranteed won't have the chops to replace the players you'd like to see leave. You basically cut off your nose to spite your face. Thankfully as a fan, you don't affect the process...much.

[BFin]

It's over with.

/thread and stop wasting your time gents. You all have your own opinions.

[Roogsy]

You're welcome to stop reading the thread Brandon.

[brandrews]

Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.

while frei may have been our best player last season, i remember him having some serious issues getting off of his line and controlling the box the year before.

over the last two years, dero has easily been our best player; frei would be second and no one else would even rate.

whether you like him or not is a completely separate scenario to how good of a footballer dero is.

oh yeah...and i'm super glad with the way this whole cann scenario has played out.

[BFin]

You're welcome to stop reading the thread Brandon.
As much as I appreciate your advice Roogs, I'd say it would probably help your day-to-day efficiency a HELL of a lot more than mine if you stopped reading them as well.

Cheers.

[Pachuco]

Honestly..it's because I can't believe that a person who is willing to sign an imaginary cheque and then back up his behaviour verbally can be honest when apologizing.

He didn't seem all that upset about what he had done and I'm willing to bet that if you ask him in confidence today, he'd say he still feels the same way.

It's just my opinion but it's the way I see it.

But a guy who walks away from his team and stops playing can be honest when apologizing? Very hypocritical.

[Roogsy]

As much as I appreciate your advice Roogs, I'd say it would probably help your day-to-day efficiency a HELL of a lot more than mine if you stopped reading them as well.

Cheers.


Al-Mo has seen my setup...I'm pretty efficient already. :thumbsup:

[v00d00daddy]

Well from that perspective I suppose it's another reason to understand your position. Without meaning to offend, I simply find it to be a deluded position to take. Cann and DeRo's actions are not unique nor are they the only self-interested members of this team. You are judging them based on the fact that they have been forced into these moves by dishonest managers. You can rest assured that given similar circumstances, a majority of the players on this team would probably pull similar moves and decisions.

If your interest is solely on the product on the pitch, then I can't see why you don't understand that a much more cold-hearted approach should be taken. Your desire to have players that meet some elevated standard of conduct is unreasonable. While Whoopee made have a point that at times there are players willing to sacrifice to a certain extent, they are by far in the extreme minority, in any sport and you will most definitely not find them at TFC where believe me, players are already suspicious of management given what has transpired these past 4 seasons and will now not give TFC the benefit of the doubt.

I suppose I lost my rose-coloured glasses years ago when I started seeing the inside of the sports industry. But frankly, I can't believe any player would meet your standard given the test and you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Today it's Cann, yesterday it was DeRo, tomorrow it will most definitely be another player. In the meantime, while you judge players to an unreasonable standard, if things were run your way, you also unecessarily handicap the team by ridding usable players and replacing them with lovely chaps who almost guaranteed won't have the chops to replace the players you'd like to see leave. You basically cut off your nose to spite your face. Thankfully as a fan, you don't affect the process...much.

I agree that the Cann and DeRo situations are likely not the only ones in within the squad where players feel like them.

I don't doubt that there are some disgruntled players that may have been promised shit by a snake of a manger in the past.

I just don't get how displaying their displeasure in that manner helps the situation.

What has it gotten them, other than the ire of many supporters?

Not to mention that there is a new management/coaching system at the helm?

As for your last comment..I know it was supposed to be a (poorly) veiled jab at me but that's okay.

I know that as a fan I have ZERO affect on the process. I'm happy with that.

Unfortunately you fail to realize that as a person who is in the business of making money for players you've lost all ability to be objective and you're no longer a fan of this team but rather a fan of the individuals within the team.

Arguing with you has become the equivalent (in my mind) of arguing with a players agent or, on the other end of the spectrum, Tom Anselmi.

Neither of whom I would go to for an honest opinion on the state of this team.

Unfortunately it seems that you DO have an effect on the process.

[v00d00daddy]

But a guy who walks away from his team and stops playing can be honest when apologizing? Very hypocritical.

Not really. It's more a case of a guy who actually seems apologetic when apologizing gets the benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't change the fact that I've lost respect for Cann.

Where I once would have thought that he might make a decent captain, I've since come to realize that I was very wrong and that there is no way it should even be considered.

DeRo on the other hand does not seem (and never did) to be truly sorry for how he behaved.

[Pachuco]

People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

DeRo never has.

Au contraire. I think you should speak for yourself here. There has been nothing more frustrating then reading people's comments about how overrated Cann is or that he isn't that good anyways. All this happened when Cann walked off the team. Before that Cann could do no wrong in many people's eyes. The funniest comment of all which I've been laughing at for days was when someone said "Well he sucked for Canada anyway". BAHAHAHA, that was a big joke. This person couldn't even make up the fact he's not that good for TFC so they go onto the Canada thing. As if it's revelant to Cann's play with TFC.

The point is, there is a shit load of people who's judgement becomes blinded and clouded because of their personal hate for a player. Nothing to do with performance, everything to do with a personality clash. I'll give you credit where credit is due and you have always been consistent with your message around Dero. Don't like his attitude, but atleast you get that he's a pretty darn good player for TFC.

You know, I'm just happy as hell that Winter doesn't make things personal as others do around here. He's taken both players back, he knows how important they are to the team, and he'll probably make them key figures in this year's lineup. If it were up to some people we'd have a team of 11 Danny Dichios. A rather average striker who won the love of the fans through his personality as opposed to anything else. Every team may need a Danny Dichio, but every team needs a De Rosario as well.

[Whoop]

I'm done with these debates. LOL

I get where Roogsy is come from, while I come from the other side (team side) given my past and current situation.

At the end of the day it cuts both ways. The failure of TFC, specifically Mo, from making it a good working environment has led to these actions. But at the same time it doesn't absolve the actions of particularly players. The one disadvantage the players have is that the public, 3 out of 4 times, will side with the club. So the actions of the players will be more heavily scrutinized and they should be aware of it. Some know this others don't. Some are humble, others aren't.

If you want to break down into a real world example, it's like when you're at work and you're asked if you can stay at work a little longer to get something done, like a special project.

If your workplace is a good one, you'll tell your boss, hey no problem. Some employees can sense that things are tight and will offer to stay longer without the boss having to ask. Some employees, even in a good environment, will complain and demand that they be compensated for their time.

Now imagine a bad work environment. Some will just screw you, I'm not staying. Some will say I'll stay if I get paid. Some will stay but know that when they get the opportunity they'll leave for another job. And others will just do it because its their job.

The funny thing is that over the years people have these cynical views of athletes (and team owners). But like anything else all you always hear about are the 5% who complain and whine (on both sides) as opposed to the rest of the people who go out and just do their job, enjoy what they do, and try to win as often as they can. And shockingly there are still a lot of guys who put the collective effort of the team ahead of themselves. I mean why take cortisone shots when you can just shut yourself down?

So much like people say well, athletes complained before, will continue to complain, along the way another star will come along and just do his job.

Surely this can't be the peak for TFC? I would hope not.

Hopefully Winter and Mariner create a better working environment and as a result, hopefully the complaints from the players will stop.

[Roogsy]

^ Middle ground.

I like it.

Either way...the season starts in 5 days! All this will hopefully be behind us. :tfc:

[Roogsy]

As for your last comment..I know it was supposed to be a (poorly) veiled jab at me but that's okay.


Not a jab. I recognize that as fans we all have little impact on what happens. However, our collective voices have a greater impact. So we both do and do not have an impact. That is all I was getting at. No jab intended.

As for my impact...while I am involved in certain aspects with all sorts of players in various sports, including some on TFC, I assure you my impact is after the fact. Players do not approach me for advice pre-contract talks. They come to me after the fact post-contract to deal with the effects of what they have signed. So how much impact I can have is surely quite minimal as I have never dispensed advice to players on how to deal with any team they are negotiating with. All my comments on this board are from the perspective of a fan, with the added value of the experience I bring.

[v00d00daddy]

Au contraire. I think you should speak for yourself here.

hahaha...I thought that was exactly what I did:


"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

I agree...a players talent level doesn't drop the minute he acts like a fool.

I'm not interested in debating whether or not they're good players. I'm arguing that thieir behaviour might indicate that they're bad TEAM players.

[Chevy]

Agreed, the talent level remains the same but the value a player adds to his club is reduced the minute he starts to douche it up.

Case study - Miami Heat. On paper they look unbeatable, however because of their personalities and attitude the reality is a little different.

[Pachuco]

hahaha...I thought that was exactly what I did:



I agree...a players talent level doesn't drop the minute he acts like a fool.

I'm not interested in debating whether or not they're good players. I'm arguing that thieir behaviour might indicate that they're bad TEAM players.

Definately not what you did...


People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

DeRo never has.

[v00d00daddy]

Definately not what you did...

Dude...why are you so nitpicky?

Did I say ALL people. I said people...because that's what people said.

I don't remember anyone saying that based on talent DeRo sucks.

I'm sorry if it offended you that you thought I was speaking for everyone, but I wasn't.

It seems you're more frustrated with people who said Cann was shit as a player after he walked out on the team when they were probably people who thought he was great before hand.

I wasn't one of those people because I think both Cann and DeRo are good players...just not high on my list of team oriented players.

What you bolded indicates what exactly?

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

Sorry but that's precisely how MOST people reacted.

Not all but most.

[Pachuco]

Dude...why are you so nitpicky?

Did I say ALL people. I said people...because that's what people said.

I don't remember anyone saying that based on talent DeRo sucks.

I'm sorry if it offended you that you thought I was speaking for everyone, but I wasn't.

It seems you're more frustrated with people who said Cann was shit as a player after he walked out on the team when they were probably people who thought he was great before hand.

I wasn't one of those people because I think both Cann and DeRo are good players...just not high on my list of team oriented players.

What you bolded indicates what exactly?

"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

Sorry but that's precisely how MOST people reacted.

Not all but most.

You are correct, frustrated at people's clouded judgement because of their personal hate for something a player did or said. Like I said though, I believe you have been pretty consistent with your message and I was just using your post to make my point :)

Too often in Toronto sports we run a good player out of town because of some personal vendetta. Something they did or said ticked us off and therefore people make it a mission to rack up the evidence against the player to justify his departure. I mean, it's gotten to the point that someone suggested (as recent as 2 days ago) all Dero can do is take penalties.

In Toronto though, we much prefer to make a hero out of Tie Domi and Danny Dichio while players like that could never lead us to anything significant.

Guevara and Dero would lead a team to the playoffs any day before Danny Dichio and Carl Robinson. Unfortunately because of their personality, Guevara and Dero will never be heros in Toronto. While Dichio and Robinson would've been knighted by now if it was up to TFC fans.

[Whoop]

You are correct, frustrated at people's clouded judgement because of their personal hate for something a player did or said. Like I said though, I believe you have been pretty consistent with your message and I was just using your post to make my point :)

Too often in Toronto sports we run a good player out of town because of some personal vendetta. Something they did or said ticked us off and therefore people make it a mission to rack up the evidence against the player to justify his departure. I mean, it's gotten to the point that someone suggested (as recent as 2 days ago) all Dero can do is take penalties.

In Toronto though, we much prefer to make a hero out of Tie Domi and Danny Dichio while players like that could never lead us to anything significant.

Guevara and Dero would lead a team to the playoffs any day before Danny Dichio and Carl Robinson. Unfortunately because of their personality, Guevara and Dero will never be heros in Toronto. While Dichio and Robinson would've been knighted by now if it was up to TFC fans.

I'm not a Leaf fan at all, and really other than TFC and some interest in the Jays, I'm not a huge Toronto sports fan. However, I am a Torontonian.

So please tell me a player that has been run out of Toronto over the last 30 years who has gone on to win anything of significance after he has been "run out of town"?

The only guy I can come up with is Larry Murphy and even then while he was a solid player on the Red Wings, he was mainly a depth guy.

Vince Carter? No. Chris Bosh? We'll see. Robbie Alomar? No. Mats Sundin? No. etc, etc

Torontonians, like any sports fan in any city across North America and I'd even venture the world, prefer guys who do their job and don't complain about it. Fans will always revere the guys who compare most to them, the working class hero. The guy who goes to factory, punches the clock, does his job well, and punches out.

Go through the history of any sporting club/team be it in hockey, basketball, NFL football, football and every team's sporting heroes are the same. People don't revere guys like Terrell Owens, Brett Favre, Alexei Yashin, Manny Ramirez in the way they revere guys like Cal Ripken, Barry Sanders, Steve Yzerman, Roy Halladay, etc.

For example, Cristiano Ronaldo might be the most talented player to ever play with Manchester United but he definitely isn't the most loved ever at the club. Or even Wayne Rooney for that matter.

So to say this is a Toronto thing isn't true. Hell, I even give their hockey fans the benefit of the doubt on that one. ;)

[Suds]

...

For example, Cristiano Ronaldo might be the most talented player to ever play with Manchester United but he definitely isn't the most loved ever at the club. Or even Wayne Rooney for that matter.

So to say this is a Toronto thing isn't true. Hell, I even give their hockey fans the benefit of the doubt on that one. ;)



Did hell just freeze over??? :D

[Whoop]

Well, they really haven't had any real stars to cheer for in decades. LOL

[Banjax]

Well, they really haven't had any real stars to cheer for in decades. LOL
Well there was that one gu....nvm no one :D

[Pookie]

Game on the weekend, I think we can all unite around that. I'm going to declare a personal injunction on DeRo posts. My opinion of whether he should be traded aside, as long as he wears a Red kit, I will be pulling for him.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm done with these debates. LOL

I get where Roogsy is come from, while I come from the other side (team side) given my past and current situation.

At the end of the day it cuts both ways. The failure of TFC, specifically Mo, from making it a good working environment has led to these actions. But at the same time it doesn't absolve the actions of particularly players. The one disadvantage the players have is that the public, 3 out of 4 times, will side with the club. So the actions of the players will be more heavily scrutinized and they should be aware of it. Some know this others don't. Some are humble, others aren't.

If you want to break down into a real world example, it's like when you're at work and you're asked if you can stay at work a little longer to get something done, like a special project.

If your workplace is a good one, you'll tell your boss, hey no problem. Some employees can sense that things are tight and will offer to stay longer without the boss having to ask. Some employees, even in a good environment, will complain and demand that they be compensated for their time.

Now imagine a bad work environment. Some will just screw you, I'm not staying. Some will say I'll stay if I get paid. Some will stay but know that when they get the opportunity they'll leave for another job. And others will just do it because its their job.

The funny thing is that over the years people have these cynical views of athletes (and team owners). But like anything else all you always hear about are the 5% who complain and whine (on both sides) as opposed to the rest of the people who go out and just do their job, enjoy what they do, and try to win as often as they can. And shockingly there are still a lot of guys who put the collective effort of the team ahead of themselves. I mean why take cortisone shots when you can just shut yourself down?

So much like people say well, athletes complained before, will continue to complain, along the way another star will come along and just do his job.

Surely this can't be the peak for TFC? I would hope not.

Hopefully Winter and Mariner create a better working environment and as a result, hopefully the complaints from the players will stop.

Well said, Vic.

- Scott