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Pendrith
02-27-2011, 10:03 AM
TFC are playing a 4-3-3 formation influenced by their new coach Winter as the TFC (Dutch) style of playing. I watched the two games on line from Orlando and have come to the conclusion that TFC don't have the fullbacks and centre backs to play this style. In order for this style of play to work, your centre backs must have offensive flair. Cann has no offensive style and Attakora has minimal. As for the left and right backs, the starters have not been determined but from what I saw in the Orlando games, I didn't see much progress from last year from our left and right backs. The left and right backs must be more involved in the offense. They must help the midfielders and the forwards in the attacking half of the field. I did not see much of that in the Orlando games. I am sorry to say this but either Cann or Attakora can't be a starter for the new playing style to be effective. We need a centre fullback that has some offensive side to his game to complement either Cann or Attakora which have limited offensive capabilities. As for the left and right backs, hopefully two can be found from the trialists and perhaps from Ashton Morgan and our first rounf draft choice. Hope they fix the back four soon or this will be another long season.

OurGame
02-27-2011, 10:12 AM
DeGuzman will do wonders for this system this year ..

Ola Guzman

Yohan
02-27-2011, 10:46 AM
I can't think of one natural CB in MLS that's comfortable with offensive skills. Most are converted CBs or CB being a secondary position, not natural.

Basically, Rafa Marquez, Geoff Cameron, Adrian Serioux. That Alain Rochat guy looks pretty good for passing too

I'm more worried about fullbacks than CBs who can move the ball TBH

TFCRegina
02-27-2011, 10:48 AM
I can't think of one natural CB in MLS that's comfortable with offensive skills. Most are converted CBs or CB being a secondary position, not natural.

Basically, Rafa Marquez, Geoff Cameron, Adrian Serioux. That Alain Rochat guy looks pretty good for passing too

I'm more worried about fullbacks than CBs who can move the ball TBH

Agreed. Our CBs are serviceable, not great but they work.

Our RB/LB situation is a fucking disaster.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-27-2011, 10:53 AM
dont forget we had alot of trialists on the field as well as dudes out of position, that contributed to what we saw yesterday

DangerRed
02-27-2011, 10:54 AM
DeGuzman will do wonders for this system this year ..

Ola Guzman

You're about the tenth person to make that comment, so I'm not picking on you here, but it is patently fucking ridiculous.

If anyone here thinks that DeGuzman alone will somehow make the team work, that he will be some sort of link that makes it all sing, you're dreaming.

In order for DeGuzman to be effective, the back line has to work. The back, right now, does not work. Cann and Nana are OK, but they are not great players. There has to be consistent strength from the keeper all the way out to the forwards for this system to work, and right now, it simply doesn't.

That's why it's called TOTAL football (even though what we're trying to play is not total football, technically). Everyone has to be on the same page for it to work, not just DeGuzman.

You guys are talking about back halves who need to have offensive flair. Dudes, our back line is like swiss cheese. They're having a hard time DEFENDING, never mind building up an attack.

I'm starting to worry that all this focus on an attractive, attacking style of play (which I have yet to see, unless you consider Frei touching the ball every 10 seconds "attractive") is taking away from badly needed work that still needs to be done on our defence.

DeGuzman doesn't solve our defensive woes (look at last season) nor will he be the magic key to our offence.

Somebody said this when Winter was signed at first, and I think it's right: TFC is used to low-scoring losses under Preki. Now, we're going to get used to high-scoring losses under Winter. Hope I'm wrong.

TFCRegina
02-27-2011, 11:01 AM
Well said DangerRed. Couldn't have put it better myself. I know that for a fact, because in trying to communicate that myself, nobody seems to be understanding.

Pachuco
02-27-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm with DangerRed on this one.

I'll add that when Deguzman is on the field and we lose it's because the players around him. When he's off the field it's because he's not on the field. Dear god when will people realize JDG isn't our saviour. He may end up being a small piece of it, but that's about it.

Anyways, as to the 4-3-3 formation and total football I'll judge when I see the starting 11 playing in the first few games of the season. We still have how many players to sign? I would think more signings are coming and some of those include starting positions. Impossible to judge at this point whether Winter's system will work with the players he has.

Kaz
02-27-2011, 11:07 AM
The boys failed to score against a team that is less familiar then we are, and is set to play 2 division below MLS. It should have been a win plan and simple.

But Winter get until March 19th to figure out what he is going to do. If we lose to Vancouver in an embarrassing fashion then I'll be steaming mad. I realize that we won't be competing really till next year with this format, but honestly. Dan Gargan needs to go. If he is still with the club beyond June I'll be surprised.

Yohan
02-27-2011, 11:13 AM
maybe TFC needs to look at Real Salt Lake and see how their 4-3-3 system works... after all, that system works in MLS

then again, RSL plays helluva more conservative 4-3-3 than dutch total football

but it's more realistic look at 4-3-3 that works in MLS environment

ag futbol
02-27-2011, 11:25 AM
maybe TFC needs to look at Real Salt Lake and see how their 4-3-3 system works... after all, that system works in MLS

then again, RSL plays helluva more conservative 4-3-3 than dutch total football

but it's more realistic look at 4-3-3 that works in MLS environment
They've also amassed quite a bit of talent on the team.

We need some patience here, I think we've all got post traumatic stress disorder from four years of Mojo. It's going to take some time to get this to work.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-27-2011, 11:50 AM
The boys failed to score against a team that is less familiar then we are, and is set to play 2 division below MLS. It should have been a win plan and simple.

.

Not entirely true. A lot of these dudes played for the austin aztex who came in second in the usl which was a second division league up until the nasl displaced them recently. Also they beat philly. I'm not saying I liked what I saw out there but there's a lot more going on than just playing a 3rd division team in a glorified friendly

Derko
02-27-2011, 12:37 PM
You guys sure do panic like Monks seeing the Longships coming over the horizon, and you all try to over analyze each other, I'll keep my thoughts and actually watch what develops in the weeks to come and not hit the panic button and shit myself.

Cheers from Jamaica

Dunc
02-27-2011, 12:39 PM
if we still had Braz and Reda I think they could show the Dutch a thing or two about total football

TFCDP
02-27-2011, 12:49 PM
You guys sure do panic like Monks seeing the Longships coming over the horizon, and you all try to over analyze each other, I'll keep my thoughts and actually watch what develops in the weeks to come and not hit the panic button and shit myself.

Cheers from Jamaica

jerk......haha

Totally agree with you.... not going to panic just yet

OurGame
02-27-2011, 12:53 PM
You're about the tenth person to make that comment, so I'm not picking on you here, but it is patently fucking ridiculous.

If anyone here thinks that DeGuzman alone will somehow make the team work, that he will be some sort of link that makes it all sing, you're dreaming.

In order for DeGuzman to be effective, the back line has to work. The back, right now, does not work. Cann and Nana are OK, but they are not great players. There has to be consistent strength from the keeper all the way out to the forwards for this system to work, and right now, it simply doesn't.

That's why it's called TOTAL football (even though what we're trying to play is not total football, technically). Everyone has to be on the same page for it to work, not just DeGuzman.

You guys are talking about back halves who need to have offensive flair. Dudes, our back line is like swiss cheese. They're having a hard time DEFENDING, never mind building up an attack.

I'm starting to worry that all this focus on an attractive, attacking style of play (which I have yet to see, unless you consider Frei touching the ball every 10 seconds "attractive") is taking away from badly needed work that still needs to be done on our defence.

DeGuzman doesn't solve our defensive woes (look at last season) nor will he be the magic key to our offence.

Somebody said this when Winter was signed at first, and I think it's right: TFC is used to low-scoring losses under Preki. Now, we're going to get used to high-scoring losses under Winter. Hope I'm wrong.

I hear ya / we will see what happens .. it will unfold one way or another

drexel10
02-27-2011, 01:12 PM
I can't think of one natural CB in MLS that's comfortable with offensive skills. Most are converted CBs or CB being a secondary position, not natural.

Basically, Rafa Marquez, Geoff Cameron, Adrian Serioux. That Alain Rochat guy looks pretty good for passing too

I'm more worried about fullbacks than CBs who can move the ball TBH


Tim Ream is!

Yohan
02-27-2011, 01:17 PM
They've also amassed quite a bit of talent on the team.

We need some patience here, I think we've all got post traumatic stress disorder from four years of Mojo. It's going to take some time to get this to work.
And this started with day one of the day Jason Kreis took over as a coach. RSL in early years were TERRIBLE. they patiently added pieces over the years, got max out of utility MLS players, some really shrewd foreign signings and now they are one of the top contenders in MLS

boban
02-27-2011, 01:21 PM
TFC are playing a 4-3-3 formation influenced by their new coach Winter as the TFC (Dutch) style of playing. I watched the two games on line from Orlando and have come to the conclusion that TFC don't have the fullbacks and centre backs to play this style. In order for this style of play to work, your centre backs must have offensive flair. Cann has no offensive style and Attakora has minimal. As for the left and right backs, the starters have not been determined but from what I saw in the Orlando games, I didn't see much progress from last year from our left and right backs. The left and right backs must be more involved in the offense. They must help the midfielders and the forwards in the attacking half of the field. I did not see much of that in the Orlando games. I am sorry to say this but either Cann or Attakora can't be a starter for the new playing style to be effective. We need a centre fullback that has some offensive side to his game to complement either Cann or Attakora which have limited offensive capabilities. As for the left and right backs, hopefully two can be found from the trialists and perhaps from Ashton Morgan and our first rounf draft choice. Hope they fix the back four soon or this will be another long season.
So in two meaningless games you analyzed this team and have a better understanding than a guy who was in numerous WC and Euro Finals, and been the head of the club and dissected it repeatedly over the past 2 months. :rolleyes:
God I love this board and its experts. :D

Pendrith
02-27-2011, 01:43 PM
That is what this board is for. To give opinions and updates. My opinion is if Cann and Attakora are the starting fullbacks, we are for a long season. I may be wrong but I may also be right, so that give me attitide until the season actually starts and we see who the starters are etc.

Whoop
02-27-2011, 01:49 PM
Prediction:

TFC's lineup at the end of the season will be a lot different than the lineup that starts the season.

Yohan
02-27-2011, 01:50 PM
That is what this board is for. To give opinions and updates. My opinion is if Cann and Attakora are the starting fullbacks, we are for a long season. I may be wrong but I may also be right, so that give me attitide until the season actually starts and we see who the starters are etc.
i think you can sleep soundly knowing that Cann and Attakora won't be the starting fullbacks on the 19th ;)

cochrdoc
02-27-2011, 02:11 PM
Our fullback line has been brutal the last few seasons and that includes this year.They are medicore at defending and are not very comfortable on the ball.We seem to think that Attakora is the answer.I think the ducth guy who started a cm then dropped back for him in the second half did a better job of passing the ball.I didn`t see anyone on the outside backs that were better then what we had last year.We can`t be passing the ball aroud the back in our defensive third and continue to make the mistakes we do.I am sure our coaches have a differant opinion of MLS after this weekend and hopefully know what type of players we need.I get akick out of people saying that degusman is going to be the answer.He has not done anything in the league yet.Mero sure has not had an impact in the games that i watched for someone who wants a contract raise

prizby
02-27-2011, 02:12 PM
That is what this board is for. To give opinions and updates. My opinion is if Cann and Attakora are the starting fullbacks, we are for a long season. I may be wrong but I may also be right, so that give me attitide until the season actually starts and we see who the starters are etc.

sorry i had to laugh



I am not sure who will play left back :s, but watching Omphroy on the right side; his short passing looks like it needs work, but I think every single cross that he sent into the box the past two games were fairly dangerous...he's got some good swirve on those crosses and once the boys up front get use to them, they can do some serious danger

TFCRegina
02-27-2011, 02:13 PM
i think you can sleep soundly knowing that Cann and Attakora won't be the starting fullbacks on the 19th ;)

LOL, the comment you quoted deserves a few of these:
:facepalm: :picard:

Whoop
02-27-2011, 02:16 PM
Omphroy isn't starter material.

Kaz
02-27-2011, 06:15 PM
Omphroy isn't starter material.
Nor should he be at this moment, give him so reserve games, and next year he may very well be... nana wasn't a starter either when he got here.

TFC/Everton
02-27-2011, 07:01 PM
Omphroy isn't starter material.

But he will be!

TFC/Everton
02-27-2011, 07:07 PM
There is clearly not enough talent on this team to win this year. Look at the Sounders, Galaxy and the Rapids. Loaded with talent. Wild card playoff birth at best, hopefully a DP contract mid season, but i am not hopeful.

rocker
02-27-2011, 07:16 PM
maybe TFC needs to look at Real Salt Lake and see how their 4-3-3 system works... after all, that system works in MLS

then again, RSL plays helluva more conservative 4-3-3 than dutch total football

but it's more realistic look at 4-3-3 that works in MLS environment

But.... people need to realize RSL wasn't what it is today in spring training when Jason Kreis started as coach.

RSL was shitty in its first season with Kreis, as he began to formulate what is now a very powerful MLS team.

swan
02-27-2011, 07:18 PM
i didn't read all the post but wynne would be good he has some good pace for this and can run up the sides good..

Yohan
02-27-2011, 07:21 PM
But.... people need to realize RSL wasn't what it is today in spring training when Jason Kreis started as coach.

RSL was shitty in its first season with Kreis, as he began to formulate what is now a very powerful MLS team.
i know that. but i think there are lessons to be learned from observing RSL 4-3-3 system. it's defensively responsible AND be able to score goals

watching U17 Canada vs US right now and those kids play better game than TFC right now. lol

Pookie
02-27-2011, 07:47 PM
A lot of this criticism is warranted but misplaced, IMO.

If you step back, the real issue is determining the best way to build a successful team year in and year out, including your development system.

With player turnover significantly high in the MLS, you are left with essentially 2 choices.

1. Assemble (relatively) talented players and adopt a system that is suited to their collective strength.

Pros: you will maximize the returns over the short term by playing to your player's respective strengths.

Cons: each year will likely bring about a new system as players come in and out of your club

2. Develop a system of play and integrate it through your development program. Suffer through the growing pains as players learn the system.

Pros: Sustainable, long term success is more likely as players can become interchangeable over time. Success is a function of the system and less reliant on individual players.

Cons: The horses you have on the roster right now might now be able to grasp the system and the season starts in a few weeks. So, you are going to lose some and you can talk about a system but until they can actually play it, you have something in between.

Darlofletch
02-27-2011, 08:12 PM
A lot of this criticism is warranted but misplaced, IMO.

If you step back, the real issue is determining the best way to build a successful team year in and year out, including your development system.

With player turnover significantly high in the MLS, you are left with essentially 2 choices.

1. Assemble (relatively) talented players and adopt a system that is suited to their collective strength.

Pros: you will maximize the returns over the short term by playing to your player's respective strengths.

Cons: each year will likely bring about a new system as players come in and out of your club

2. Develop a system of play and integrate it through your development program. Suffer through the growing pains as players learn the system.

Pros: Sustainable, long term success is more likely as players can become interchangeable over time. Success is a function of the system and less reliant on individual players.

Cons: The horses you have on the roster right now might now be able to grasp the system and the season starts in a few weeks. So, you are going to lose some and you can talk about a system but until they can actually play it, you have something in between.

very good post. hopefully we do stick with the long term plan, I'm quite confident that few years down the line we'll be looking good, much less confident about how this year will go down. that growing pains phase you mentioned is definitely happening. this year is looking like a tough one ahead.

jloome
02-28-2011, 11:46 AM
My problem so far isn't with the play, or style of play, or any of that, as it's all too new. I'm just not seeing or hearing about trialists who'll make a huge difference.

We didn't just have the wrong system, we had -- and still have -- guys starting who aren't good enough in this league.

We need a couple of key guys, preferably a left-footed forward, a left-footed wingback and a striker who scores regularly.

Walms
02-28-2011, 01:01 PM
very good post. hopefully we do stick with the long term plan, I'm quite confident that few years down the line we'll be looking good, much less confident about how this year will go down. that growing pains phase you mentioned is definitely happening. this year is looking like a tough one ahead.


Agreed, This is going to be a year of learning for our players, our Acadamy, and even our managment. Lets give our boys some slack and have faith that Winter will make it work and bring some majic to Toronto in the future

:scarf:

Pigfynn
02-28-2011, 01:04 PM
We should make a serious play for Dane Richards of NY. Offer something biggish for him. See if they bite.

He would provide real speed along the wing and is known to pop one in from time to time as well.

Oldtimer
02-28-2011, 01:17 PM
A lot of this criticism is warranted but misplaced, IMO.

If you step back, the real issue is determining the best way to build a successful team year in and year out, including your development system.



You forgot option 3:

3. Do nothing until March. Then phone Barry MacLean for some players. Assemble a group of whatever misfits he provides. Don't get a full roster until July. Keep switching players desperately throughout the season, hoping to get something that works. End the season out of a playoff spot, with no recognizable system, firing the coach, cutting this year's riffraff players, and hinting that the December "scouting" trip to Brazil will bring in some "amazing" players, because you are looking at a forward, a winger, and a right-back. :D

Yohan
02-28-2011, 01:19 PM
We should make a serious play for Dane Richards of NY. Offer something biggish for him. See if they bite.

He would provide real speed along the wing and is known to pop one in from time to time as well.
Richards's ball skill is about good as Jacob Peterson's...

Serb_Star
02-28-2011, 01:35 PM
I can't believe how overrated JDG has become on here :facepalm: he can be a good piece on a team but if you honestly expect him to be a difference maker or game changer than you are seriously deluded.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 02:06 PM
I can't believe how overrated JDG has become on here :facepalm: he can be a good piece on a team but if you honestly expect him to be a difference maker or game changer than you are seriously deluded.

Couldn't disagree more. The right DM is absolutely crucial in the system we are trying to run and De Guzman has all the qualities that we need for this role. It's not like putting JDG out there is a miracle cure for all that ails TFC, but if you think he can't be a difference maker in the right system you're the one who's deluded.

Of course, De Guzman just became a shit footballer over the past couple years, totally forgot how to play the game.... nothing to do with the fact he came to a team that doesn't know how to play the game. It's also a coincidence how many players are terrible at TFC, but play amazing after they leave, nothing to do with tactical inefficiencies.

ExiledRed
02-28-2011, 02:13 PM
I love this constant "attractive attacking football" spin.

like you need to define this as a system? EVERY club wants to 'play attractive attacking football' its the holy fucking grail.

show me a club that proclaims itself to play 'ugly, defensive football' and I'll stop regarding everything that comes from FO these days as no-substance 'spin'

Whoop
02-28-2011, 02:23 PM
LOL, I agree.

Why not just call it 'possession football' or just say 'we want to play with the football on the ground' instead of calling it "total football".

No one really plays total football anymore. Barcelona plays their own version that is based on the original that was developed by Cruyff but even then it's not really total football in its purest sense.

In reality as long as it isn't negative football like we saw in Euro '04 or Preki ball, I'll be happy with some winning football.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 02:35 PM
I love this constant "attractive attacking football" spin.

like you need to define this as a system? EVERY club wants to 'play attractive attacking football' its the holy fucking grail.

show me a club that proclaims itself to play 'ugly, defensive football' and I'll stop regarding everything that comes from FO these days as no-substance 'spin'

Well, if you watch the way we're playing and the things we're working on, there is a very clear system being put in place. The attractive part of it will be a fair ways away, but that doesn't change the tactical set up, which I believe is what this thread is about. Style, tactics...

You have to look no further than every time Frei gets the ball, our centre backs push out wide to recieve the ball, our full backs move forward, and our DM drops into the middle to create an available outlet pass. It's clearly not working right now, but where's it breaking down? Our midfield, where our defensive possession needs to be turned into attack with quick short passing, and good, positive movement is key.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Who's talking about "attractive attacking football" anyways??

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 02:47 PM
No one really plays total football anymore. Barcelona plays their own version that is based on the original that was developed by Cruyff but even then it's not really total football in its purest sense.


Sure it is, being that one of the main tenets of Total Football is flexibility and versatility, the style itself should change with the time, considering Cruyff's version was his own version based on the original developed by Rinus Michels.

Darlofletch
02-28-2011, 03:01 PM
Well, if you watch the way we're playing and the things we're working on, there is a very clear system being put in place. The attractive part of it will be a fair ways away, but that doesn't change the tactical set up, which I believe is what this thread is about. Style, tactics...

You have to look no further than every time Frei gets the ball, our centre backs push out wide to recieve the ball, our full backs move forward, and our DM drops into the middle to create an available outlet pass. It's clearly not working right now, but where's it breaking down? Our midfield, where our defensive possession needs to be turned into attack with quick short passing, and good, positive movement is key.

and that's why de guzman will be crucial. Is he going to turn us into world beaters, or even mls beaters? nope, but he'll definitely have a positive effect, getting into space to receive a pass, then keeping possession with simple short passes should be right up his alley. It obviously depends on the movement of others, if there's noone available for a pass, he'll look as bad as our defenders look with no-one to pass to, but he'll definitely be an upgrade, at the very least he'll make the first step from defence to midfield easier for cann and co.

Oldtimer
02-28-2011, 03:19 PM
Sure it is, being that one of the main tenets of Total Football is flexibility and versatility, the style itself should change with the time, considering Cruyff's version was his own version based on the original developed by Rinus Michels.

... Who was in turn influenced by Jack Reynolds, Ajax manager for most of the years from 1915 to 1947. He in turn was influenced by the Austrian NT in the early 1930's, and Michels may have been influenced by the Hungarian NT in the 1950's (although they didn't play 4-3-3, but 4-2-4).

So Total Football has been a developing form of play that came from several different sources, and it's principles still live on, even if the term is less used nowadays ("Tiki-Taka" is what Barcelona uses).

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 03:29 PM
... Who was in turn influenced by Jack Reynolds, Ajax manager for most of the years from 1915 to 1947. He in turn was influenced by the Austrian NT in the early 1930's, and Michels may have been influenced by the Hungarian NT in the 1950's (although they didn't play 4-3-3, but 4-2-4).

So Total Football has been a developing form of play that came from several different sources, and it's principles still live on, even if the term is less used nowadays ("Tiki-Taka" is what Barcelona uses).

This doesn't dispute what I said, at all.

Oldtimer
02-28-2011, 03:30 PM
This doesn't dispute what I said, at all.

I'm just adding more information. Why does every post on this board have to be a dispute?

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 03:34 PM
I'm just adding more information. Why does every post on this board have to be a dispute?

LOL, I read your post as a "correction" as opposed to discussion, my bad.

Whoop
02-28-2011, 03:36 PM
So why can't TFC's brand total football? When in reality it should be Winter football. LOL

It's like Dutch football automatically = Total football.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 03:42 PM
I have very deliberately not referred to TFC tactics as Total Football. I've just been talking about the tactical set up we've been using this preseason. Who cares what we call it.

Whoop
02-28-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm not saying you are. LOL

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 03:55 PM
Well there was one comment about "constant attractive attacking football spin" and yours about total football/winterball, I assumed you guys must have been talking to me, cause nobody has mentioned either of those things, that's all.

ExiledRed
02-28-2011, 04:03 PM
Who's talking about "attractive attacking football" anyways??

I must have made that up......

Nobody's been harping on about 'attractive attacking football' for the last three months.

My mistake.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 04:08 PM
I love this constant "attractive attacking football" spin.

like you need to define this as a system? EVERY club wants to 'play attractive attacking football' its the holy fucking grail.

show me a club that proclaims itself to play 'ugly, defensive football' and I'll stop regarding everything that comes from FO these days as no-substance 'spin'

This is clearly a response to my post about tactics.

ExiledRed
02-28-2011, 04:38 PM
This is clearly a response to my post about tactics.

It absolutely is not, i didnt even read your post.

The post was an entry to the thread post, concerning the purported 'dutch style' of playing that's been talked about on here since Winter's appointment.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 04:44 PM
I guess you didn't read the OP either, since he was saying it won't work lol

ExiledRed
02-28-2011, 05:48 PM
I guess you didn't read the OP either, since he was saying it won't work lol

I think youre looking for a pissing match.

not interested.

I read the OP's post, and a few that followed, and added a general comment. finish.

Jeffro
02-28-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm not looking for a pissing match, I just wanted to talk tactics and it seemed like your post was a response to mine, moving on :)

sweetlemon69
02-28-2011, 06:30 PM
I don't agree with the cb's being the clutch pin in this system. I've been a barca fan for over a decade now, and to me the 3 clutch points are the holding mid shutting down the middle, right and left backs providing key options/service and immediately tracking back and the final one is immediately closing down the ball in the opponents half. having the dynamic position interchanging is good, but on average isn't the big deal. i rairly see puyol and pique pushing all the way to the 18 yard box... their key role is being confident and passing to the mids/back in their own half. that's something i feel comfortable that atakora and cann will get.

jazzy
02-28-2011, 06:39 PM
if we still had Braz and Reda I think they could show the Dutch a thing or two about total football

now I know you are loopey..........OMG, please I hope this in humour.........so everyone here expects us to jump in and conquer the world?....We are seeing what is needed and slowly Winter will teach and import the players he would like,......and this will NOT be overnight....if progress is to be made the warts have to be opened wide............nothing great was ever developed without patience,,,,,AND in the future our Academy who are learning this skilled football will be THE deciding edge...., for the long term.....It is the only way to have long term success in the MLS. I am looking forward to watching the development.

backbeat
02-28-2011, 08:03 PM
now I know you are loopey..........OMG, please I hope this in humour.........so everyone here expects us to jump in and conquer the world?....We are seeing what is needed and slowly Winter will teach and import the players he would like,......and this will NOT be overnight....if progress is to be made the warts have to be opened wide............nothing great was ever developed without patience,,,,,AND in the future our Academy who are learning this skilled football will be THE deciding edge...., for the long term.....It is the only way to have long term success in the MLS. I am looking forward to watching the development.

this!!

completely agree - this will take time - build systematically from the academy - a philosophy, a system that will be passed down decade to decade....f' the draft build from the community - long term gain and we will develop a strong consistent local team and national team.... :canada: :scarf:

Antonio Gramsci
03-01-2011, 03:44 AM
and that's why de guzman will be crucial. Is he going to turn us into world beaters, or even mls beaters? nope, but he'll definitely have a positive effect, getting into space to receive a pass, then keeping possession with simple short passes should be right up his alley.

DeGuzman getting into space would require him to actually run once in a awhile. Apart from Mista, JDG was the slowest player on the team last year (MLSE having apparently instituted a unique scheme which linked pay inversely to pace).

Oldtimer
03-01-2011, 07:41 AM
DeGuzman getting into space would require him to actually run once in a awhile. Apart from Mista, JDG was the slowest player on the team last year (MLSE having apparently instituted a unique scheme which linked pay inversely to pace).

Actually, his lack of pace showed only because of the styles we were playing (first English long-ball, then Prekiball).

In the Spanish style (which comes from the Dutch style), the HM plays "smart" rather than athletic. It's more like chess than like a sprint. In watching JDG over this time, I'd say he's more than capable of that. He's always thinking several moves ahead.

Antonio Gramsci
03-01-2011, 01:14 PM
But that only works if both sides are playing the same game. The North American game puts a greater premium on athleticism and a lesser one on skill than does the Spanish one. No matter how smart he may be (my assessment isn't as generous as yours), JDG will lose every time against hustling, box-to-box midfelders because they can close down space against him very effectively.

scooterTFC
03-01-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm excited to see how this team will be built over the next few seasons. The path they have charted doesn't seem to be one that will deliver quick success but I think it is a path that makes sense in the long term. It will be interesting to see how Winter adapts his system over time. I think his success will be determined based on how he adapts his system to the North American game.

He won't succeed if he just imposes his system without regard for the the physicality of the league and the type of players available in the short term and types of players the academy can develop in the longer term.

The end result should be some sort of adapted/hybrid system... but it will take some time and some failuers along the way to get there.

Antonio Gramsci
03-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Also, outside Barcelona, I'm not sure many Spaniards would accept that their football is Dutch in style. The Basque country and Andalusian teams wouldn't. Real Madrid neither, I think.