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werewolf
02-23-2011, 04:38 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/mls-reveals-expanded-playoffs-structure-2011

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/primary_image-620x350/image_nodes/2011/02/2011playoffs.png

LittleOzzy
02-23-2011, 05:43 PM
Bloody stupid.

Scrap the conferences and send the top 8 teams to the playoffs.

Why do they always have to make things more confusing then they need to be? 10 teams in the playoffs is too many for a league with only 19.

flatpicker
02-23-2011, 05:48 PM
I starting reading the article,
But then I got confused,
And decided to wait until Toronto makes the playoffs to figure it out.

CommradePolski
02-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Heh this is NFL format. Looks like the Don has confused which football hes the commissioner of.

Roogsy
02-23-2011, 05:50 PM
Incredibly stupid. This is officially when they have given up their credibility for revenue.

sully
02-23-2011, 06:26 PM
How does a wild card become a wild card and why us there four of them? Whatever about the playoff format..the team that's top of the league is the real champion to me..

akoto
02-23-2011, 06:48 PM
I have to agree. The winner of a small tournament that half the league is in shouldn't count as the league champion.

rocker
02-23-2011, 07:08 PM
if playoffs are good enough for the World Cup, then they are good enough for me.

akoto
02-23-2011, 07:22 PM
World Cup is a collection of the best teams from multiple confederations playing teams they usually haven't played multiple times already that year. The MLS playoffs are a collection of 10 teams who have already played each other all season long to determine who was the best in the league. Kind of makes the play offs redundant.

ensco
02-23-2011, 07:31 PM
TFC still would have missed by a point. We can't even make the make-believe playoffs.

rocker
02-23-2011, 07:33 PM
World Cup is a collection of the best teams from multiple confederations playing teams they usually haven't played multiple times already that year. The MLS playoffs are a collection of 10 teams who have already played each other all season long to determine who was the best in the league. Kind of makes the play offs redundant.

I understand, but that's not a problem with "playoffs". That's a problem you have with the determination of who is in what playoffs.

The knee jerk reaction on these boards is always "playoffs suck" when I don't believe it should be so.

Nonetheless, MLS teams only play each other twice in a season, which fits your definition of "multiple times" but I don't think it's as bad as you seem to suggest it is. Those ten teams haven't played each other "all season long" ... they've played each other twice. That's not a lot.

werewolf
02-23-2011, 07:37 PM
The playoffs don't suck, they are just diluted.

If we ever win the league, I am going to be twice as proud as if we win the MLS cup in this current format.

mowe
02-23-2011, 08:11 PM
This is a North American league, so we're stuck with playoffs. The new format is alright, gives two more teams a chance (good for TFC) and it's now harder for a west team to win the eastern conference.

The article does make it seem a lot more confusing than it is.

NBS
02-23-2011, 08:17 PM
The only championship that matters is the one that the players, coaches and management think matters: MLS cup.

Given a choice between playing a less than 100% player for the final game of the season that could win a supporters shield, or resting him for the playoffs, we all know the choice would be to rest him for the playoffs. Everything the players, coaches and management do is geared for the playoffs. The regular season is essential an elongated play-in tournament.

Thus the supporters shield means next to nothing IMO. It's nice, something to put on the trophy case, but that's it. The intensity in playoff games tells you everything you need to know about what the players consider to be the championship.

rocker
02-23-2011, 08:29 PM
here's another way to think of it:

the first 34 games are Stage 1 of the season.
The rest of the games are Stage 2.
By the end of Stage 2 the champion is crowned.

I think most North Americans see it that way. I was born here and I see it that way.

Maybe in Europe with relegation, you have the tension of a relegation battle, but without that in North America, playoffs are essential to keeping up interest.

And if we win MLS Cup I'll be as happy as anyone to see the team survive two stages -- the marathon, and the quick race.

Oldtimer
02-23-2011, 08:35 PM
I like it better than the old format.

You can't have a bottom feeder sneak in and win it all without getting through a preliminary round.

akoto
02-23-2011, 08:42 PM
I understand, but that's not a problem with "playoffs". That's a problem you have with the determination of who is in what playoffs.

The knee jerk reaction on these boards is always "playoffs suck" when I don't believe it should be so.

Nonetheless, MLS teams only play each other twice in a season, which fits your definition of "multiple times" but I don't think it's as bad as you seem to suggest it is. Those ten teams haven't played each other "all season long" ... they've played each other twice. That's not a lot.

I never at any point said the play offs suck. I enjoy playoff games (as a Toronto fan I don't see many, but I do enjoy them). I said they are redundant. Trying to compare the World Cup Finals to MLS Cup playoffs is comparing apples and oranges. The WC is the largest and most prestigious sporting event in the world, that really couldn't be settled any other way. MLS Cup playoffs devalue the entire regular season by awarding the "league championship" to a team that happens to run well at the end of the season. Were RSL or Colorado really the best teams in MLS the last two years? At least the playoff system in England has value and meaning. That being promotion. Also the winner of the league is still considered the league champion. Novel idea.

ag futbol
02-23-2011, 08:52 PM
I have no issue with playoffs, but the number of teams going through is a little much. I don't think finishing 9th or 10th in a 19 team league deserves much praise.

As much as i hate baseball they have a better idea of a post season than most.

werewolf
02-23-2011, 08:59 PM
Maybe in Europe with relegation, you have the tension of a relegation battle, but without that in North America, playoffs are essential to keeping up interest.



As a TFC supporter, its not really on my radar to keep up the late-season interest in Kansas City and Houston et al. If we aren't in the championship hunt in the last month of the season, we have bigger problems to worry about.

The playoffs in other North American leagues are 4-6 weeks, in leagues that are the premier competition of the respective sports around the world. The MLS isn't a trend-setter. It's hard to take the playoffs seriously when the 7th placed team wins the "championship" going 3-1 in the playoffs, a year after the 8th placed team beats the 2nd best team after going 2 wins, 2 draws (2 PK wins). Now the 9th and 10th placed teams, have a shot...

It shows the league is more concerned with marketing and profit then competition. But then again, the whole league is based on profit over the integrity of the game.

Aroundtheworld
02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
Toronto FC will be one of the wild cards.

You heard it here first.

akoto
02-23-2011, 09:36 PM
Toronto FC will be one of the wild cards.

You heard it here first.

More then half the league makes the playoffs and almost half of those who make the playoffs are wildcard teams.

BOLD PREDICTION.:rolleyes:

J .
02-23-2011, 10:01 PM
Itll be tough on the wild card teams to make it all the way through. Playoffs are another way of sizing up who is the best team. Im fine with it and I understand why they want two sides of the continent engaged.

DichioTFC
02-23-2011, 10:03 PM
I want to wait to see how it plays out before I knock it. But it does scream of CFL-level stupidity on the surface.

Still, anything that gets TFC into the playoffs is fine by me. :D

backbeat
02-23-2011, 10:41 PM
I have no issue with playoffs, but the number of teams going through is a little much. I don't think finishing 9th or 10th in a 19 team league deserves much praise.

As much as i hate baseball they have a better idea of a post season than most.

i agree - baseball can be boring but they have the playoffs bang on - almost a middle ground between North America sports and relegation table format - at least you have the race in October which means something and then a playoff race with meaningful teams.

that format i'd be happy with in the MLS

Blowing Bubbles
02-23-2011, 11:05 PM
10 out of 18 teams is a joke. The NFL is more restrictive (12/32) and they have a much higher variance in a 16 game season with unbalanced schedules.

Why can't we just have top 3 in each conf:

#3 vs #2

winner plays #1 with #1 having home in 2nd leg.

6/18 teams is still reasonable.

We're going to have a season from March to October only to try and cram a champ in 4 weeks in shit weather with shit pitches and undersized rosters and just have a massive variance gongshow to declare a champion.

Keystone FC
02-24-2011, 12:20 AM
Well, it at least gives a Eastern team a chance to make the Final. I guess the MLSFO was kind of redfaced the past two years giving an Eastern Conference Championship trophy to a Western club.

Super Cereal
02-24-2011, 01:40 AM
TFC still would have missed by a point. We can't even make the make-believe playoffs.

Best post in the thread.

As for the new system.... I'll figure it out some other day.:facepalm:

JuliquE
02-24-2011, 03:56 AM
As a TFC supporter, its not really on my radar to keep up the late-season interest in Kansas City and Houston et al. If we aren't in the championship hunt in the last month of the season, we have bigger problems to worry about.

If the majority of clubs in the league were supported like ours, then I would agree.. but I think that this sort of thinking would not be very becoming of a commissioner; survival is the name of the game.

Rocker's marathon/quick race (toward the end of a marathon) analogy hits the nail on the head, for me.

Milky
02-24-2011, 06:31 AM
This new format is actually an improvement over last year's. At least this format rewards clubs that finish top of their conference standings. The wild cards open the playoffs up to more clubs, but those clubs will have to work hard to get into the playoffs proper.

Wull
02-24-2011, 07:51 AM
If we're doing playoffs, top 4 in each conference should go in, 1vs4, 2vs3 etc. or do away with the conferences and just have the top 8 teams go at it with seeding

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 08:20 AM
here's another way to think of it:

the first 34 games are Stage 1 of the season.
The rest of the games are Stage 2.
By the end of Stage 2 the champion is crowned.

I think most North Americans see it that way. I was born here and I see it that way.

Maybe in Europe with relegation, you have the tension of a relegation battle, but without that in North America, playoffs are essential to keeping up interest.

And if we win MLS Cup I'll be as happy as anyone to see the team survive two stages -- the marathon, and the quick race.

Nice try rocker. They can mix the playoff rules around and try to improve them little by little but the glaring difference in priorities between NA soccer and World football will continue to determine their respective relevance.

Playoffs are for the bandwagon.

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 08:31 AM
The only championship that matters is the one that the players, coaches and management think matters: MLS cup.

Given a choice between playing a less than 100% player for the final game of the season that could win a supporters shield, or resting him for the playoffs, we all know the choice would be to rest him for the playoffs. Everything the players, coaches and management do is geared for the playoffs. The regular season is essential an elongated play-in tournament.

Thus the supporters shield means next to nothing IMO. It's nice, something to put on the trophy case, but that's it. The intensity in playoff games tells you everything you need to know about what the players consider to be the championship.

I disagree with the players determining what prize is important to me.

Just look at the Vcup. If it were not for the vocal minority of supporters that praised it we would not have heard players praising such a small tournament.

I see no difference in the intensity of this sport in playoffs vs regular season. We don't have as many meaningless games in a season as other NA sports.

It's utter fiction that I need to get up for playoffs because I'm NA. I like the difference in priorities at the highest level of this sport.

Oldtimer
02-24-2011, 08:40 AM
Playoffs are for the bandwagon.

I agree, but I would also say that the bandwagon is important for any club, or league for that matter.

Obviously, winning the SS is the better indication of relative worth of a team, and a knowledgeable minority will recognize that, but to most "TFC fans" winning the playoffs is the dream, and you have to have playoffs in order to win them.

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 08:42 AM
^Granted. We need $$$ as a club and most definitely as a league.

RedsYNWA
02-24-2011, 09:09 AM
An improvement over the previous years for sure

Beach_Red
02-24-2011, 09:12 AM
Incredibly stupid. This is officially when they have given up their credibility for revenue.

If those are really the choices, which one would you make?

rocker
02-24-2011, 12:19 PM
Nice try rocker. They can mix the playoff rules around and try to improve them little by little but the glaring difference in priorities between NA soccer and World football will continue to determine their respective relevance.

Playoffs are for the bandwagon.

Playoffs don't hurt the relevance of MLS in North America. Playoffs are credible in North America, so MLS needs to have them. Are there people in North America who don't follow MLS because it has playoffs? I see people on here complaining about playoffs, but if TFC is in the MLS Cup final, they won't watch? ;)

It's not like if MLS ditched playoffs MLS would become more successful financially or gain more credibility with Americans.

Actually, without playoffs there would be less interest and less money coming to the league. Many teams would be out of league title contention at the all star game point, and without relegation there'd be nothing to play for the rest of the way.

If people don't like playoffs, don't watch them. When the regular season is over, go home and celebrate your team's supporters' shield.

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 12:36 PM
Playoffs don't hurt the relevance of MLS in North America. Playoffs are credible in North America, so MLS needs to have them. Are there people in North America who don't follow MLS because it has playoffs? I see people on here complaining about playoffs, but if TFC is in the MLS Cup final, they won't watch? ;)

It's not like if MLS ditched playoffs MLS would become more successful financially or gain more credibility with Americans.

Actually, without playoffs there would be less interest and less money coming to the league. Many teams would be out of league title contention at the all star game point, and without relegation there'd be nothing to play for the rest of the way.

If people don't like playoffs, don't watch them. When the regular season is over, go home and celebrate your team's supporters' shield.

Your shpeel works if we only had NA players and managers in our league but we don't. This game more than any other is worldwide and no matter how hard NA tries we can't ignore it. This system favours an insular state of mind.

While you're right that to get people in the door we have to pretend saccer is like every other apple pie sport there will come a time when a majority, not simply a knowledgeable minority, ask why we do things different from most.

KRO
02-24-2011, 12:40 PM
Coming form the UK it's taken me a while to get used to the playoff format but I can see the value of it. In the EPL, because of European qualification and relegation most teams have something to play for right up to the end of the season. In MLS, if every team was just playing for the Supporters Shield the season would be over for most teams by the half way point. Play-offs keeps it interesting.

I have no problem with the new format, wildcard teams now have to get through one more game and that will reduce their chances. Teams that are in the top 3 in each conference will get extra rest at a busy time of the season.

flatpicker
02-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Coming form the UK it's taken me a while to get used to the playoff format but I can see the value of it. In the EPL, because of European qualification and relegation most teams have something to play for right up to the end of the season. In MLS, if every team was just playing for the Supporters Shield the season would be over for most teams by the half way point. Play-offs keeps it interesting.

I have no problem with the new format, wildcard teams now have to get through one more game and that will reduce their chances. Teams that are in the top 3 in each conference will get extra rest at a busy time of the season.

I agree.
Leagues need something to keep fans interested right up to the end.
Whether it be relegation or playoffs... although, I do prefer relegation.
But this is North America... things are a little different here.

LittleOzzy
02-24-2011, 12:54 PM
I like the playoffs, but I hate that 10 teams get in from two conferences.

I would be a lot happier with a single table and the top 8 advance to the playoffs.

Platts
02-24-2011, 01:13 PM
Remember that the new playoff format is designed for a 20 team league which is definitely coming in the next couple of years (Mtl + Cosmos-Miami), so half the league makes it.

The new system is better in that the supporters shield champion gets to play the weakest team and vice-versa, so it is more equitable.

IMO

Parkdale
02-24-2011, 01:16 PM
And decided to wait until Toronto makes the playoffs to figure it out.


I usually just wait for someone on here to point out "we need to win the next X games, and have Y team lose and Z team lose to qualify"

Redcoe15
02-24-2011, 01:35 PM
I actually like this setup. It will make it more challenging for the bottom clubs to succeed in the postseason and make it more than likely for successful clubs to reach the MLS Cup final.

Oldtimer
02-24-2011, 01:42 PM
The new system is better in that the supporters shield champion gets to play the weakest team and vice-versa, so it is more equitable.

IMO

That's a really good point.

NBS
02-24-2011, 02:11 PM
Honestly, with the money involved in the sport these days, if European leagues could switch to a playoff format without enduring a wicked backlash from supporters, I bet you they'd do it in a heartbeat.

TorCanSoc
02-24-2011, 02:13 PM
10 out of 18 teams is a joke.

2007 it was 8 teams out 13. I remember thinking, all you have to do is not suck ass, and you're in.

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 02:19 PM
Honestly, with the money involved in the sport these days, if European leagues could switch to a playoff format without enduring a wicked backlash from supporters, I bet you they'd do it in a heartbeat.

Absolutely true. Thank God for dedicated supporters.

DichioTFC
02-24-2011, 02:38 PM
So when TFC misses the make-believe playoffs, can we all agree that the post-season protest will be somewhere between Egyptian Revolution and Libyan Clusterfuck?

Wull
02-24-2011, 02:53 PM
So when TFC misses the make-believe playoffs, can we all agree that the post-season protest will be somewhere between Egyptian Revolution and Libyan Clusterfuck?

Winter will be getting 2 full seasons before I start demanding tangible success from him, the Front Office are the ones I'll be watching with interest from day one

NBS
02-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Absolutely true. Thank God for dedicated supporters.

Well, at least in MLS, you have both a supporters shield and MLS cup, something for everybody. I don't like people who don't like playoffs trying to impose their will on those that do. By the same token I won't try and impose my will about playoffs on somebody who doesn't like it.

I will say however that I think there should be a greater advantage in the playoffs offered to the winner of the supporters shield to give it a little more meaning and integrity than it has right now.

Yagbod
02-24-2011, 03:04 PM
Like it or not, (hopefully) it means more TFC games to attend and watch. And that is always a good thing.

Fort York Redcoat
02-24-2011, 03:21 PM
Well, at least in MLS, you have both a supporters shield and MLS cup, something for everybody. I don't like people who don't like playoffs trying to impose their will on those that do. By the same token I won't try and impose my will about playoffs on somebody who doesn't like it.

I will say however that I think there should be a greater advantage in the playoffs offered to the winner of the supporters shield to give it a little more meaning and integrity than it has right now.

Impose? I have no say in MLS policy. yet. My opinion is a minority here in NA.

Pookie
02-24-2011, 03:41 PM
If you have to have playoffs, I do agree with the idea of doing away with conferences. We play a balanced schedule anyways so putting the top 8 teams through would be a reasonable way to do it.

That said, I'm not sure why they don't adopt the following:

- season long table champion (Supporter's Shield)
- Champions League (CONCACAF)
- "FA Cup" like NA in-season tournament featuring club teams from lower divisions and MLS teams entering in at the mid-round point

The whole idea of playoffs is to book more home revenue dates, generate buzz, and ideally TV exposure for the MLS.

Given that attendance in a number of markets drops off during the playoffs (see New England) it is clear that folks either don't care about them, find it too damn cold, or simply are caught up in other sports by this time.

Knowing that, why not capitalize on when attendance peaks (the summer) and generate exposure for the league in a number of cities across the country? The "FA Cup" model holds a lot of value in my opinion.

NBS
02-24-2011, 04:24 PM
Impose? I have no say in MLS policy. yet. My opinion is a minority here in NA.

My point was more that I don't think it's worth arguing over because people feel how they feel. At least the way it's set up allows both sides to have something to their liking.

Beach_Red
02-24-2011, 04:39 PM
If you have to have playoffs, I do agree with the idea of doing away with conferences. We play a balanced schedule anyways so putting the top 8 teams through would be a reasonable way to do it.

That said, I'm not sure why they don't adopt the following:

- season long table champion (Supporter's Shield)
- Champions League (CONCACAF)
- "FA Cup" like NA in-season tournament featuring club teams from lower divisions and MLS teams entering in at the mid-round point

The whole idea of playoffs is to book more home revenue dates, generate buzz, and ideally TV exposure for the MLS.

Given that attendance in a number of markets drops off during the playoffs (see New England) it is clear that folks either don't care about them, find it too damn cold, or simply are caught up in other sports by this time.

Knowing that, why not capitalize on when attendance peaks (the summer) and generate exposure for the league in a number of cities across the country? The "FA Cup" model holds a lot of value in my opinion.


As long as they have a championship game to make an event out of, it would be fine. They'll always need something like that, a Champions League Final, a Super Bowl, some single game that can be hyped.

tfcleeds
02-24-2011, 04:51 PM
Honestly, with the money involved in the sport these days, if European leagues could switch to a playoff format without enduring a wicked backlash from supporters, I bet you they'd do it in a heartbeat.

The promotion playoffs are already tremendously successful in England. And they aren't watered down either - only 4 teams, ranked 3-6 in their respective divisions (4-7 in League Two), so the quality is definitely there, and there isn't much to pick between the teams. Very entertaining usually.

nimamalek
02-24-2011, 06:55 PM
love the extra spots, and I like the playoff format better then the league competition

troy1982
02-24-2011, 07:14 PM
If you have to have playoffs, I do agree with the idea of doing away with conferences. We play a balanced schedule anyways so putting the top 8 teams through would be a reasonable way to do it.

That said, I'm not sure why they don't adopt the following:

- season long table champion (Supporter's Shield)
- Champions League (CONCACAF)
- "FA Cup" like NA in-season tournament featuring club teams from lower divisions and MLS teams entering in at the mid-round point

The whole idea of playoffs is to book more home revenue dates, generate buzz, and ideally TV exposure for the MLS.

Given that attendance in a number of markets drops off during the playoffs (see New England) it is clear that folks either don't care about them, find it too damn cold, or simply are caught up in other sports by this time.

Knowing that, why not capitalize on when attendance peaks (the summer) and generate exposure for the league in a number of cities across the country? The "FA Cup" model holds a lot of value in my opinion.

What are you trying to say? we have a champions league and Open cups in Canada and the US with lower division teams.

Batman
02-24-2011, 08:04 PM
I can live just fine with the new playoff scheme. We're in North America, we don't have relegation and promotion, so playoffs seem fine to me.

Pookie
02-24-2011, 11:15 PM
What are you trying to say? we have a champions league and Open cups in Canada and the US with lower division teams.

I thought it was pretty clear what I was trying to say ;)

Keep the Champions league. Scrap the MLS playoffs in favour of a table champion.

Add a FA Cup style in-season competition involving lower division teams and MLS teams playing for the "Cup". That would be the big marque "soccer championship day" that they would sell to the networks.

NBS
02-25-2011, 01:06 AM
I thought it was pretty clear what I was trying to say ;)

Keep the Champions league. Scrap the MLS playoffs in favour of a table champion.

Add a FA Cup style in-season competition involving lower division teams and MLS teams playing for the "Cup". That would be the big marque "soccer championship day" that they would sell to the networks.

You know what sells better than that: MLS cup playoffs.

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2011, 08:11 AM
You know what sells better than that: MLS cup playoffs.




Given that attendance in a number of markets drops off during the playoffs (see New England) it is clear that folks either don't care about them, find it too damn cold, or simply are caught up in other sports by this time.



Looks like NBS and Pook are looking at different books...


My point was more that I don't think it's worth arguing over because people feel how they feel. At least the way it's set up allows both sides to have something to their liking.


One side gets the spotlight and focus while the other does not. That is why we continue debating. The SS is ignored for the most part for the after season tourney and now they've made that tourney longer and less relevant with more teams in it.

Pookie
02-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Looks like NBS and Pook are looking at different books...




Mine is the book of Fact, I wonder what his is ;)

Average MLS playoff attendance figures are a little screwy when you jam +40k fans in for last year's final in Seattle... or as we saw at BMO, count tickets sold in an extortion attempt vs tickets you actually sell to people that want to go to the games.

Reality is that many teams draw less for the playoffs than they do for the regular season.

Given that a number of markets with positive or status quo attendance for playoff games (eg. Seattle, LA) also include playoff tickets free with season ticket packages, there is no reason to think that ongoing FA Cup like games could draw less than MLS Cup playoffs.

NBS
02-25-2011, 12:53 PM
Mine is the book of Fact, I wonder what his is ;)

Average MLS playoff attendance figures are a little screwy when you jam +40k fans in for last year's final in Seattle... or as we saw at BMO, count tickets sold in an extortion attempt vs tickets you actually sell to people that want to go to the games.

Reality is that many teams draw less for the playoffs than they do for the regular season.

Given that a number of markets with positive or status quo attendance for playoff games (eg. Seattle, LA) also include playoff tickets free with season ticket packages, there is no reason to think that ongoing FA Cup like games could draw less than MLS Cup playoffs.

How's the attendance and ratings for the US open cup which is held throughout the warmer months, relative to the playoffs?

Beach_Red
02-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Mine is the book of Fact, I wonder what his is ;)

Average MLS playoff attendance figures are a little screwy when you jam +40k fans in for last year's final in Seattle... or as we saw at BMO, count tickets sold in an extortion attempt vs tickets you actually sell to people that want to go to the games.

Reality is that many teams draw less for the playoffs than they do for the regular season.

Given that a number of markets with positive or status quo attendance for playoff games (eg. Seattle, LA) also include playoff tickets free with season ticket packages, there is no reason to think that ongoing FA Cup like games could draw less than MLS Cup playoffs.

Sure, that's the way it is now, but Garber and the owners have big plans for soccer, they see huge TV ratings in the future so that's what they're setting it up for.

NBS
02-25-2011, 01:00 PM
One side gets the spotlight and focus while the other does not. That is why we continue debating. The SS is ignored for the most part for the after season tourney and now they've made that tourney longer and less relevant with more teams in it.

I thought you didn't care about what other people thought. If you celebrate the SS as a championship, you are free to do so. I don't see playoff supporters trying to kill the SS, but I always see SS supporters wanting to kill the playoffs. There are people that like both and it makes NO sense for the league to change the way things are. That doesn't mean they can't tweak the system however.
I've already said I think changes should be made to make the supporters shield more relevant. That I would completely support, and if that happens, I don't see what the problem would be with keeping a playoff system for the many people that do appreciate and like it.

Pookie
02-25-2011, 01:25 PM
How's the attendance and ratings for the US open cup which is held throughout the warmer months, relative to the playoffs?

It's poor but it isn't a fair comparison.

Playoff tickets are included in season ticket packages across the MLS. Think about what attendance for the Cup final at BMO would have been if they put all 20,000+ seats up for public sale with no inclusion in a package.

I do know that 31,311 took in the final between Seattle and Columbus so there is potential there if hyped correctly.

And therein lies the rub. If it isn't marketed, you draw squat. Much like TFC drawing 10,000 for a CCL game.

JonO
02-25-2011, 01:48 PM
I wonder if it's possible to arrange the MLS Cup final at the home of the supporter's shield winner. Financial incentive for the club + potential for home field advantange in the finals. Lots of disadvantages too, I'm sure...

NBS
02-25-2011, 01:48 PM
It's poor but it isn't a fair comparison.

Playoff tickets are included in season ticket packages across the MLS. Think about what attendance for the Cup final at BMO would have been if they put all 20,000+ seats up for public sale with no inclusion in a package.

I do know that 31,311 took in the final between Seattle and Columbus so there is potential there if hyped correctly.

And therein lies the rub. If it isn't marketed, you draw squat. Much like TFC drawing 10,000 for a CCL game.

I guess I don't understand why we can't just have it both ways. Like I mentioned in another post, the supporters shield should carry more weight than it does, but that can be tweaked and both table and playoff supporters can enjoy what they enjoy. Maybe it's not perfect, but for me, as a playoff fan, a single table with never satisfy me like a playoff system does. Having a supporters shield, especially one that's given more relevance gives single table supporters something to shoot for and celebrate, and then tune out if they so please. Let playoff supporters enjoy their playoffs.

jaahuuu
02-25-2011, 01:57 PM
How's the attendance and ratings for the US open cup which is held throughout the warmer months, relative to the playoffs?
In 2010, the final (Columbus @ Seattle) drew 31,311, breaking a record for the final that had stood since 1929 by almost 10,000 people. I think that was the only game of the tournament that was televised, not sure what kind of ratings it got. One round of 16 game (Seattle @ Portland) drew over 15,000. No other game of the entire tournament broke 4600 in attendance. The 2 semifinal matches combines had less than 8000 people, and there were at least 10 matches, out of the 39 played, that drew under 1000 people.

In the 2010 MLS Playoffs, the lowest drawing game had 10,322.the highest 35,521.

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2011, 02:02 PM
I thought you didn't care about what other people thought. If you celebrate the SS as a championship, you are free to do so. I don't see playoff supporters trying to kill the SS, but I always see SS supporters wanting to kill the playoffs. There are people that like both and it makes NO sense for the league to change the way things are. That doesn't mean they can't tweak the system however.
I've already said I think changes should be made to make the supporters shield more relevant. That I would completely support, and if that happens, I don't see what the problem would be with keeping a playoff system for the many people that do appreciate and like it.

Whoah there! I wouldn't be here if I didn't care to hear others opinions. As you say, this issue gets people talking but I'm no more trying to brainwash anyone than you are.

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2011, 02:04 PM
I wonder if it's possible to arrange the MLS Cup final at the home of the supporter's shield winner. Financial incentive for the club + potential for home field advantange in the finals. Lots of disadvantages too, I'm sure...


Timing being the first that springs to mind. A race that goes to the end of season (as it has in the past) would give them very little time to plan/market locally as they should/must.

JonO
02-25-2011, 02:07 PM
Timing being the first that springs to mind. A race that goes to the end of season (as it has in the past) would give them very little time to plan/market locally as they should/must.
I think the biggest issue would be travel plans, but there is sufficient time (what is it, about a month?). Although maybe I am just thrown by the amount of marketing the game got here in Toronto... Maybe other cities do it differently

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2011, 02:10 PM
I think the biggest issue would be travel plans, but there is sufficient time (what is it, about a month?).

There was no more than a week between the the semi and the final. With the planning and $$ that goes into it I can't say it's fair for more than one city to be responsible for those preparations.

JonO
02-25-2011, 02:12 PM
^ A month between the end of the season (when the supporters' shield winner is determined) and the finals, no

Pookie
02-25-2011, 02:25 PM
In 2010, the final (Columbus @ Seattle) drew 31,311, breaking a record for the final that had stood since 1929 by almost 10,000 people. I think that was the only game of the tournament that was televised, not sure what kind of ratings it got. One round of 16 game (Seattle @ Portland) drew over 15,000. No other game of the entire tournament broke 4600 in attendance. The 2 semifinal matches combines had less than 8000 people, and there were at least 10 matches, out of the 39 played, that drew under 1000 people.

In the 2010 MLS Playoffs, the lowest drawing game had 10,322.the highest 35,521.

What would be interesting, never having been in the playoffs, would be to see how many of those "attendees" were simply tickets counted "Sold" and included as part of a season ticket package.

Our 2010 MLS Cup Attendance numbers paint a picture of a sold out BMO but clearly that wasn't the case with actual bums in seats.

If you can draw 31,000 fans for a game that isn't part of a package, is all public sale, and none of the games were televised leading up to it...? Imagine.

Fort York Redcoat
02-25-2011, 03:13 PM
^ A month between the end of the season (when the supporters' shield winner is determined) and the finals, no

Riiiiiiight. My bad. A month should be just enough time.

drexel10
02-25-2011, 06:07 PM
The new playoff format is very good for our team right now. If you break down the best teams in the league, it is almost exclusively western teams. The east is really wide open right now for spots 2 and 3 (RBNY will win the East easily).

Blowing Bubbles
02-25-2011, 06:26 PM
What would be interesting, never having been in the playoffs, would be to see how many of those "attendees" were simply tickets counted "Sold" and included as part of a season ticket package.
.

who includes playoff tickets in their season ticket package? that's a pretty wild speculation on your part

Pookie
02-25-2011, 06:50 PM
who includes playoff tickets in their season ticket package? that's a pretty wild speculation on your part

Many teams, outside of Toronto, have included additional "special games" that include MLS playoffs... either first round or if they host it, the MLS Cup. Others go a step further.

For example, the 2011 New York Red Bulls Season Ticket package includes:

Same seat for all 17 home regular season matches at Red Bull Arena
Same seat for all home playoff matches and a bonus event


As an aside, many season ticket holders in major centers enjoy more benefits than we do. LA includes discounted parking. Seattle includes free food at the concessions.

james
02-26-2011, 10:58 AM
90% of fans in the league would probably like to see the format of:

season-1 league table, everyone plays each team home and away

Playoffs- top 8 teams make playoffs.

And boom so easy to do yet they still refuse to do it and try to go with confusing and stupid formats.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-26-2011, 01:43 PM
no clue why they do it either. i dont see how they make more money/get better exposure with this format

rocker
02-26-2011, 02:18 PM
no clue why they do it either. i dont see how they make more money/get better exposure with this format

well, with 10 teams it means in late season just about every team will still be in the race for the playoffs, so that keeps up interest in the regular season in almost every market. Playoff races are a classic part of American sporting culture (baseball in particular).

the whole east/west thing is a TV ratings plan, I think, so that no region is without a team in the playoffs. I know in some leagues sometimes a certain region tends to dominate certain eras of a league... like the West was always much better than the East when I was following the NBA some years ago. East/west representation quotas ensure that one region's fans will have teams in the playoffs. Since the league spans a massive geography that no other league in the world does, that makes sense, particularly when you're trying to grow interest (if the interest was already there, maybe it wouldn't matter).

the wildcard thang gives an extra game to two teams, a game that wouldn't normally exist, so there's more revenue there. It's also a winner takes all game I believe, so there's drama and tension (as with all playoff formats).

One thing I also see with the added 2 wildcard teams is this: MLS is a very close league. TFC missed the playoffs by 1 point two years ago. In a close league, is the difference between 8 and 9 so great that 8 deserves to be in, and 9 does not? The wildcard playoff now means teams who are probably equal (but may be apart by a single point) get a chance to get in. This is a similar situation to the playoffs in England -- some teams on the edge get to playoff to move up.

i'm not trying to justify this stuff (I would like single table and 1-8 make the playoffs) but it makes sense from the league's perspective.

drexel10
02-26-2011, 08:43 PM
One thing I also see with the added 2 wildcard teams is this: MLS is a very close league. TFC missed the playoffs by 1 point two years ago. In a close league, is the difference between 8 and 9 so great that 8 deserves to be in, and 9 does not? The wildcard playoff now means teams who are probably equal (but may be apart by a single point) get a chance to get in. This is a similar situation to the playoffs in England -- some teams on the edge get to playoff to move up.

i'm not trying to justify this stuff (I would like single table and 1-8 make the playoffs) but it makes sense from the league's perspective.

I think they put the wildcards into the equation to make it more difficult for a team in the 7-8 slot to pull off upsets, as has been the case in the past 3 years.