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Sullivan
01-30-2011, 06:05 PM
For those who have an interest in this sort of information....

The 2010 MLS Season Review
Prozone analyse every game in the MLS and produce comprehensive end of season reports for all clients in Major League Soccer.

SEASON IN NUMBERS
116 - Number of Home wins [48.3% Win Percentage], 47.5% in 2009
66 - Number of Away Wins [27.5% Win Percentage,] 21.8% in 2009
58 - Number of Ties [24.2% Tie Percentage], 30.7% in 2009
591 - Final Goal tally; same as 2008 [571 in 2009]
155,673 - Total number of passes in 2010 MLS Regular Season [138,249 in 2009]
324 - Average number of total team passes
78.5% - Average successful pass percentage across the league [78.6% in 2009]
2,860 - Shots on target this season out of a total of 5,725, a 50.3% shooting accuracy
15,353 - Total number of tackles this season, of which 5,089 were fouls

CONFERENCE BREAKDOWN
.....Home Wins...Home Loses ...Home Ties.. Away Wins...Away Loses...Away Ties
East......53...............37...............30.... .........28............69................23
West.....63...............29...............28..... ........38............47................35

GOALS ANALYSIS
In a turnaround from the 2009 season, the average number of shots on target per game for the teams who made the playoffs [6.09] was greater than the teams that did not make the post season [5.81]. There was no difference in the average number of penalty area entries per game between playoff/non playoff teams, 30.3, and minimal difference in final third entries, 71 compared to 70.5, however both playoff and non playoff teams had on average fewer numbers in both variables in the 2010 season compared to 2009.

Real Salt Lake scored the most goals in the 2010 season (45), 5 fewer than Dallas in 2009 (50) with an average shots on target ratio of 6.27 per game. Kansas City had the highest SOT ratio of 7.1 per game with Toronto having the lowest average shots on target per game (5.07). DC United scored the fewest goals however had one of the highest average number of shots per game (12.1) with a SOT ration of 5.67.

Kansas City had the highest shots on target average with 7.13 per game.
57% of goals in regular season were scored in the 2nd Half.
19% of goals in regular season were scored between 75-90 minutes.

TECHNICAL ANALYSIS
Style of play and tactical orientation differ, of course, from team to team. Those performance variables associated with success may therefore differ considerably from one team to the next. It is suggested that by analysing individual team data in this way may assist with the identification of team specific key performance indicators.

The teams that made the Playoffs had – on average – less touches per possession than those who did not make the Playoffs. Playoff teams had a higher number of possessions and spent less time on average in possession, suggesting that ball circulation and movement may have been at a higher tempo in teams that made the Playoffs.

LA Galaxy, despite finishing top of the overall MLS standings had only the 11th best successful pass percentage average – 78.8%. Colorado had the highest pass success average with 83.09%.

Chivas USA had the highest number of 1st time passes on average [113] although Colorado had the highest average in 1st time pass completion [79%].
28% of all Kansas City passes were long [25m+], 1.4% more than any other team.



Prozone expands with 8 MLS clubs using Prozone Performance Analysis
Prozone have recently added Sporting Kansas City, DC United and Columbus Crew to a growing list of MLS clients.

Sporting Kansas City will join Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps FC as the latest MLS club to utilise the industry leading PROZONE3 player tracking system.

Formerly the Kansas City Wizards, the club recently announced a new brand identity, and with the implementation of a suite of Prozone performance analysis tools and their plans to move to a new soccer-specific stadium for the 2011 season demonstrates the clubs ambitions.

"Prozone provides us a new set of resources that brings us to the forefront of technology as a technical staff," Sporting Kansas City Manager Peter Vermes said. "Top clubs from all around the world utilize their services and now we, too, will have the opportunity to take advantage of the astounding new ways to analyze all areas of our team."

Andrew Opatkiewicz, Prozone Americas’ Business Development Manager, commented: “Sporting KC has a unique vision for their organization.
Likewise, we have developed a unique partnership with them. Not only will SKC have access to the highest value performance analysis in the sport, but we also plan to work together to showcase other innovative analysis platforms within the fan and media space as well.”

Elsewhere in the Eastern Conference, two of the most successful teams in Major League Soccer; Columbus Crew and DC United, will be also using Prozone’s analysis solutions in the 2011 Season, including Prozone RECRUITER to enhance their player recruitment analysis.

“The Crew is excited to partner with Prozone who has been on the leading edge of scouting and recruiting worldwide over the last decade. We believe working with Prozone and their multi-faceted platforms will enhance our league scouting and player recruitment.” said Brian Bliss, Columbus Crew Technical Director.

DC United Director of IT, Carlos Saavedra, had this to say: “Prozone was an obvious choice for D.C. United, as the software the company has developed provides our club access to an unprecedented amount of data. To this end, we now have the ability to track the progress of our players as never before, and we are able to bolster our scouting methods with Prozone's proven infrastructure.”

Andrew Opatkiewicz, added: “Dave Kasper, Ben Olsen and Carlos Saavedra have a unique and progressive approach for DC United, one of the most successful clubs in MLS history. I am excited at the customized system of tools and resources that we have begun to provide them, and look forward to Prozone playing an active role in enhancing the club’s performance."

“Prozone’s growth within the US market exceeds 50 clients, including over 30 colleges and new MLS clubs: Portland, Vancouver, Kansas City, DC and Columbus. With offices in Chicago, Rio de Janeiro and Buenos Aires, the leading performance analysis technology is becoming mainstream within American football/soccer culture. With advances in our player recruitment and performance analysis platforms, MLS clubs and colleges are now taking advantage of PROZONE3, MATCHVIEWER and RECRUITER as well as other Prozone products and services, which offer a unique and holistic approach to performance analysis.”

Azerban
01-30-2011, 06:17 PM
statistics don't belong in soccer

Oldtimer
01-30-2011, 08:21 PM
MLS clubs using PROZONE will now be able to better compete in acquring the right players.

Azerban
01-30-2011, 08:22 PM
MLS clubs using PROZONE will now be able to better compete in acquring the right players.

what does this even mean

Thrillos
01-31-2011, 12:37 AM
statistics don't belong in soccer

So true.

There are so many factors in one game that cannot be put into statistics. Even goals scored is an absolutely useless stat.

I cringe when people use goals scored from a wiki page to judge a players "abilities".........

Whoop
01-31-2011, 01:21 AM
Statistics are just one tool in a myriad of tools used to evaluate players and game performance.

Statistics shouldn't be the only tool used, but they shouldn't be dismissed either.

Thrillos
01-31-2011, 07:01 PM
The only tools that should be used to evaluate a players game performance are your own two eyes during said player's involvement in a game.

I personally dismiss statistics completely, as there are infinite factors in one players motions within 90 minutes, that simply cannot be put into numbers whatsoever.

The only good thing about prozone is that you can monitor a players movements through out the game, which is not statistics, your just watching where and when said player was in motion and where he was going. Which should be done in person, but its not bad to have a digital video of it that you can fast forward, rewind and pause during review of a game.

ag futbol
01-31-2011, 07:26 PM
Statistics are just one tool in a myriad of tools used to evaluate players and game performance.

Statistics shouldn't be the only tool used, but they shouldn't be dismissed either.
+1

There's a lot of useful stuff available within that information doesn't mean you have to look at it singularly.

Carts
01-31-2011, 08:51 PM
Statistics are just one tool in a myriad of tools used to evaluate players and game performance.

Statistics shouldn't be the only tool used, but they shouldn't be dismissed either.

100% spot on...

To ignore statistical data would be foolish...

To reply on statistical data alone would also be foolish...

Its one tool in the toolbox, that when used effectively, is a very valuable tool...

Carts...

Thrillos
02-01-2011, 12:37 AM
Someone give an example of how statistics can provide an accurate analysis on a player.....

TFCRegina
02-01-2011, 12:47 AM
Someone give an example of how statistics can provide an accurate analysis on a player.....

Footspeed in a sprint, kilometers run in a match, average speed during the match, headers won/lost, challenges won/lost, pass completion %, intercepted passes, just a few.

All of those can be used to evaluate how a player performs.

Now, if they'd insist on using secondary assists in all situations, there'd be even more data available.

Other things you can do is divide the pitch into square meters and judge, based on the stats you have about the players' speed, whether a player should have made/won a challenge/header.

These are just basic examples. You can do a lot with these things to evaluate how a player performs.

Whoop
02-01-2011, 12:50 AM
Someone give an example of how statistics can provide an accurate analysis on a player.....

But I also firmly believe that you have to watch games in order to analyze a player as well. ;)

However, people have bias when watching matches. For example, you might think JDG sucks and that he can't pass but you get the report and see he actually completed 90% of his passes. Or you might think that DeRo moons every shot but you see he's actually more accurate than you think.

And you're not going to catch every little thing. Though with football it's a slower game so it's not as easy to miss things like it is in hockey for example.

But if stats aren't important, I don't want to hear how DeRo scored 15 goals this past season. I mean that's indicative of his player right there. :D

Whoop
02-01-2011, 12:53 AM
But I'm with Thrillos... you do have to watch the matches to get a good grasp of how a player performs, how reacts to pressure...

Did he score a goal with a defender draped over him?
Did the keeper face quality shots?
etc...

However, you can't dismiss stats either.

It's one of the "colours" you need when you paint a picture of a player.

TFCRegina
02-01-2011, 12:55 AM
But I'm with Thrillos... you do have to watch the matches to get a good grasp of how a player performs, how reacts to pressure...

Did he score a goal with a defender draped over him?
Did the keeper face quality shots?
etc...

No doubt you should watch the player, but you need to look at the stats too.

If we made decisions based on watching the player, we'd still have Pablo Vitti and Chad Barrett who weren't statistically adding much to the team. Talk what you want about Barrett's effort and Vitti's footwork but neither translated into gobs of goals and assists.

Guevara was a player who not only looked good while playing but was statistically good.

DichioTFC
02-01-2011, 02:49 AM
I'm with Regina. Watching is purely subjective. How many times have we all watched the same game only to come here after and discuss drastically different opinions? Average number of tackles per game, average number of passes completed per game, average percentage of headers won are all statistics that can accurately measure performance. there's always a subjective element to sports, but soccer definitely has a need for more statistics.

Thrillos
02-01-2011, 09:07 AM
Regina, you didn't give an example of using a stat to provide an accurate evaluation of the players performance in a game. You just named the different stats that are available....

A players distance run during a game is a useless stat, Berbatov barely runs in a game but has been an integral part of the Man U team that is currently unbeaten.

I don't even have to explain how useless average speed during a game is.... seriously??

Headers, was said player ahead or behind the ball in the situation, was he defending or attacking (if defending its much easier to win a header as your only worried about heading it away from your goal, while attacking your trying to head it directly to a teammate) what was the height difference between said player and each player he went to a challenge with to head the ball... etc.

Challenges won and lost, see above and also add in, the speed of each player, what angle they were running towards each other, was the ball carrier trying to go around a defender or running away from a defender... etc. etc. etc.

pass completion %, what was the situation of said passes, was he a CB on a team dominating the game who was making 10 yard sideways passes to a full back whenever the team being out played kicked the ball out of there end while desperately defending, or was it a CB that was on a team being dominated that was under constant pressure and had to provide an accurate to pass to players also under pressure.

Intercepted passes, see above.


Those are just a few examples of factors that these statistics do not take into account, which Whopee, i guess in some situations some people could find them helpfull in an analysis but, they need to be taken with a grain of salt.

The reason why a post match discussion on here has conflicting opinions is because they are all opinions, that's why not all players succeed when going to a new team, the difference between a good scout and some guy on a message board is that a scout knows what he's looking for in a player from years of experience and thousands of live games.

Chad Barrett didn't score alot, but when played on the wing he created lots of chances for our forwards (who at the time didn't know how to score) while Vitti, was missused greatly and his talent was absolutely wasted (so was Mista)

Guevara was great in the stats, but we all know he showed up when he wanted to, he went through lots of games as a ghost, and he never tracked back.


Statistics can be manipulated to show you anything. The first thing every stats teacher I had tell me.

Whoop
02-03-2011, 12:52 PM
I concede that it's a different sport but some insight into stats in sports.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/nfl/superbowl/article/932539--no-number-too-obscure-for-packers-stats-guru

Baseball has always relied on stats.
Football is moving that way, especially in terms of patterns.
Hockey is getting there.

And with PROZONE, I'm sure football is moving that way too.

Like I said it's one more tool in your arsenal in order to analyze and scout matches/players/officials.

I mean look at their partners.

http://www.prozonesports.com/partners.html

I'm sure an EPL club is using this technology available to team if not to analyze their first team, I'm sure they're using it at the academy level.

Edit: Thrillos I see your team is using it too. :D

http://www.prozonesports.com/testimonials.html

Thrillos
02-03-2011, 06:38 PM
Nice find on the testimonials, definitely helps your side of the debate.

Although I don't agree with the comparisons to the other 3 sports, I know you state that they are different sports, but they are in fact vastly different from a statistical point of view.

Baseball was the first to bring in the stats, and basically because it is a game of stats, or in other word "averages" and probabilities. ie a certain left handed pitcher against a certain right handed batter, with defined batting averages. Yes, each time at bat will not match the averages, but its been proven that it will to a certain degree with a high probability.

NFL is a bit more fluid, but they break up each play to reset, which allows for statistical analysis for each down.

Hockey is even more fluid than NFL and you don't really see stats playing as much of a role other than Goals, assists, and plus/minus.

Now if you look at Rugby, there aren't as much stats associated with that sport either because it is a fluid, free flowing game like soccer.

For me I still don't account stats with soccer. And if you actually read all the testimonials, they mostly account for the player movement on the field, and the ability to see the movement of all the players on the field at the same time at a give time.

Which in my books really isn't stats, its just giving you a better perception of the game (after the game takes place) than your eyes can give you.

I don't think they are using it at the academy level, because you have to have the 8 camera's set up for the field and then send the camera recordings of the game into prozone, where they analyze the data and send it back. Prozone's analysis of each game is not cheap, and I doubt it would get use for academies.

ginkster88
02-03-2011, 06:47 PM
[quote=Thrillos;1217728I don't think they are using it at the academy level, because you have to have the 8 camera's set up for the field and then send the camera recordings of the game into prozone, where they analyze the data and send it back. Prozone's analysis of each game is not cheap, and I doubt it would get use for academies.[/quote]

Judging by the pocketbooks of EPL teams and the vested interest they have in acheiving maximum player development, I can guarantee they are using this at the academy level.

Whoop
02-03-2011, 09:19 PM
Hockey is even more fluid than NFL and you don't really see stats playing as much of a role other than Goals, assists, and plus/minus.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm

There's more to it than that.

I know at the level I'm involved in it's not as intensive as the NHL but we still track ice time.

You can break it down as see how many points a guy gets on the PP relative to his PP time. You can lots of things. And like you said you can manipulate them and such.

For example, I go scout a game and someone tells me that player x is a good offensive player. Now I can see this player play every game as I have to go to other games. And on this particular night - while he has all the tools - he doesn't create offensively. When I get his stats and I see he has 8 goals in 50 games, I'd say "he's not that offensively gifted." But I get his stats and see he has 45 goals in 50 games, then he might have had a bad night and should go watch him again.

Thrillos
02-03-2011, 10:17 PM
I know there are more stats within hockey than G A and +/- but those are the big three (you could count points, but if you can't add G and A then you have some problems lol)

You do bring up a decent point on the player scouting situation. That can be useful to allow for an off-game by a player. But you did say that based on the fact that he might have had an off night you would come back to see him again.

So I would say that your decision on beginning talks with that player wouldn't be based on his stats, but his stats may have gotten him a second chance to perform. Where his performance is what made you decide yes or no on him, not the fact that he scored 45 in 50.

Because he could have scored all those goals in games against teams in the bottom half, and you saw him playing against a top team. That's the beauty of it, you don't know the player until you see him in person.


BTW, loving this discussion.

Thrillos
02-03-2011, 10:18 PM
Judging by the pocketbooks of EPL teams and the vested interest they have in acheiving maximum player development, I can guarantee they are using this at the academy level.

No, actually you cannot guarantee they are using it. Prove it.

You started your sentence with "Judging by" and moved to "guarantee" in the same sentence...... serioiusly?

Whoop
02-03-2011, 10:50 PM
I know there are more stats within hockey than G A and +/- but those are the big three (you could count points, but if you can't add G and A then you have some problems lol)

You do bring up a decent point on the player scouting situation. That can be useful to allow for an off-game by a player. But you did say that based on the fact that he might have had an off night you would come back to see him again.

So I would say that your decision on beginning talks with that player wouldn't be based on his stats, but his stats may have gotten him a second chance to perform. Where his performance is what made you decide yes or no on him, not the fact that he scored 45 in 50.

Because he could have scored all those goals in games against teams in the bottom half, and you saw him playing against a top team. That's the beauty of it, you don't know the player until you see him in person.


BTW, loving this discussion.

That's also true.

Does a player get goals against top teams or bottom teams? Are they important goals or garbage goals? Does he work for his goals or does he rely on others? Does he work at all or is he lazy?

I want to see a player perform against the top teams if I'm evaluating him.

At the end of the day, it's too expensive to have someone watch every match live and video also doesn't do a match justice.

Whoop
02-03-2011, 10:51 PM
No, actually you cannot guarantee they are using it. Prove it.

You started your sentence with "Judging by" and moved to "guarantee" in the same sentence...... serioiusly?

I'd say judging from the testimonials they are.

mdc 77
02-04-2011, 11:38 AM
what does this even mean

egg management fee

TFCREDNWHITE
02-06-2011, 01:34 AM
Prozone is amazing, I've seen it been used in front of me, and I was like wow!

Azerban
02-07-2011, 08:43 AM
Average number of tackles per game, average number of passes completed per game, average percentage of headers won are all statistics that can accurately measure performance.

no sorry, none of those things mean anything without the greater context of the actual game, and can very easily be manipulated by formation and style

and then you have the problem of people playing to the system instead of the game (eg: i could try threading a through ball but a sideways pass is safer and gets me 85% of the assessment points!)

the problem with statistics in football, is that the proper techniques have not yet been developed, and when they are, and they will, you will not be able to understand them without at minimum an undergraduate degree in mathematics.


and a lot of people won't like that and will act like giant babies about it.

TOBOR !
02-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Have any of you heard of this man (http://equaliserfootball.com/2010/09/28/7-lobanovskyi/) ?

He broke down games to component level and devised a successful system around the type of information that Prozone is presenting here.

A bit more on him here (if you're interested). (http://www.itsfootballnotsoccer.com/2010/04/30/football-managers-classics-valery-lobanovsky/)

TFCDP
02-07-2011, 01:56 PM
egg management fee


haha.. nice