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Oldtimer
01-11-2011, 01:24 PM
The U.S. top flight is the 42nd best football league in the world (http://www.iffhs.de/?b6e28fa3002f71504e52d17f7370eff3702bb1c2bb11). At least according to the International Federation of Football History and Statistics it is.

The organization is well regarded outside the English-speaking world - ie. the Spanish press reported happily today that La Liga has overtaken the EPL as the world's top league - but is the quality of play on offer in MLS really lower than in the national leagues of Egypt (23), Belarus (33), Cyprus (35) or Moldova (38)?

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?939-MLS-the-42nd-best-league-in-the-world

Redcoe15
01-11-2011, 01:27 PM
Edson Buddle signing with a second division team in Germany doesn't help things here.

Carts
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
I wish I could comment, but lets be honest, I've never seen 90% of these leagues once, let alone enough to comment on their play...

I hope we're higher, but I really don't have enough information or exposure to know... :(

Carts...

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
The table is titled "The strongest National League in the World 2010" but they do not give any indication of what criteria is used for the scoring.

Parkdale
01-11-2011, 01:31 PM
the iffhs is a bit of a bingo hall for ratings anyway.

drewski
01-11-2011, 01:38 PM
wow, really moving up

Jan 2009 MLS -77th
http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-ranks-shockingly-low-in-iffhs-study/647
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=8845

Jul 2010 - MLS 88
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/real-football/1249839-iffhs-releases-global-league-rankings-pl-5th-mls-88th.html
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=23759


EDIT: makes FIFA's world rankings look exact and on target.

ManUtd4ever
01-11-2011, 01:44 PM
wow, really moving up

Jan 2009 MLS -77th
http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-ranks-shockingly-low-in-iffhs-study/647
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=8845

Jul 2010 - MLS 88
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/real-football/1249839-iffhs-releases-global-league-rankings-pl-5th-mls-88th.html
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=23759

Exactly. The ratings were horseshit last year and nothing has changed. MLS is in the top 20 at the very least...

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Based on some criteria, I'm sure this is right...but there's probably little to no difference between the 25th and 50th league. I think that there's about 15 or so top quality leagues and after that ranking them becomes pretty subjective. I assume we lose points for not having 20 teams in the first division, for not having delegation etc

__wowza
01-11-2011, 01:59 PM
most of these ratings are based on the performance of teams outside of domestic leagues. i highly doubt they're looking into anything else.

hell, our attendance is on par with a step down with teams in the Npower championship.

Davenport
01-11-2011, 02:07 PM
Not sure if MLS is above Sweden, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway or Finland in quality.

J .
01-11-2011, 02:12 PM
It seems to me there is a large contingent of people in the soccer world who are against anything thats "English" football of which MLS falls into.

Gobi
01-11-2011, 02:20 PM
Methodology:


Changes to the methodology used to determine the Club World Ranking
The Executive Committee of IFFHS (http://www.iffhs.de/?bc83ccac3be8e00390b02fc5fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aeed10a) meeting on 6th January 2007 in Salzburg (Austria) decided to make the following changes to the methodology used to determine the Club World Ranking, with effect from January 1st, 2007.
UEFA Champions League: 14 - 7 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
UEFA Europa League: 12 - 6 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
Copa Libertadores: 14 - 7 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
Copa Sudamericana: 12 - 6 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
CAF Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
CAF Confederations Cup: 7 - 3.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
AFC Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
AFC Cup: 7 - 3.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
CONCACAF Champions League: 9 - 4.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
OFC Champions League: 5 - 2.5 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
FIFA Club World Cup: 14 - 7 - 0 (finals: 21 - 10,5 - 0) points for win - draw - defeat
Reason:
The widening difference in standard and performance between the two club competitions within each continent, as well as the increasing number of matches played in the less important competition of each continent.

NBS
01-11-2011, 02:26 PM
There is no possible credible working methodology for rankings of this sort. How do you even begin to compare MLS with Armenia or with Egypt or Georgia etc?

Perhaps ranking within a confederation is more workable (though still difficult), but a world ranking? Come on.

As has been mentioned, most of us have not seen enough of the world's leagues to have a real idea of who should be ranked where. Rankings of this sort have no practical value and are best left ignored.

Oldtimer
01-11-2011, 02:39 PM
So for MLS to do significantly better, we'd have to win the CCL and do well in the Club World Cup.

Hopefully, we'll be seeing something like this in the next decade, and hopefully it will be TFC making the noise.

Gobi
01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
And it should be noted that CONCACAF doesn't have an Runners-Up / Almost-But-Not-Quite-Champions League a la Europa League, so we're missing out on another possible 12 points in this ranking system.
In fact, just Oceania and us have only 1 competition that counts (besides FIFA CWC).

jloome
01-11-2011, 02:49 PM
Not sure if MLS is above Sweden, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway or Finland in quality.

Difference in player upbringing means comparing skill levels is a bit apples and oranges.

But in terms of overall league quality MLS is ahead of Slovenia and Finland.

Poland traditionally has had some very strong teams, so maybe not.

Definitely a little behind Norway, Slovakia and Sweden, but not by much.

But again, it's a silly Euro-centric scoring system.

Beach_Red
01-11-2011, 03:13 PM
Difference in player upbringing means comparing skill levels is a bit apples and oranges.




And difference in number of non-domestic players.

The biggest things that will affect MLS will be the improvement in homegrown players and the increase in salary cap to bring in bigger stars. Niether one will have a huge impact next year, but OldTimer is right, over the next decade MLS is likely going to move up steadily.

drewski
01-11-2011, 03:31 PM
And difference in number of non-domestic players.

and difference in salary cap and a bajillion other rules

drewski
01-11-2011, 03:36 PM
So for MLS to do significantly better, we'd have to win the CCL and do well in the Club World Cup.

Hopefully, we'll be seeing something like this in the next decade, and hopefully it will be TFC making the noise.


yet somehow we more than doubled our ranking in 6 months by tripling our score (374.5 v 129)?

this site is fishier than a lesbian dating site.

jloome
01-11-2011, 03:42 PM
And difference in number of non-domestic players.

The biggest things that will affect MLS will be the improvement in homegrown players and the increase in salary cap to bring in bigger stars. Niether one will have a huge impact next year, but OldTimer is right, over the next decade MLS is likely going to move up steadily.

Yeah, particularly when soccer culture is ingrained a little earlier, thanks to the academy system. The differences in player approach are largely down to how early kids start learning tactical movement and the team side of the game.

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 03:48 PM
Methodology:

I guess that's an objective way of doing evaluating a league, but its not very accurate. A league shouldn't be evaluated by its top teams. If you take Real Madrid and Barcalona out of Spain, La Liga is still a top quality league. If you take Celtic and Rangers out of Scotland, you're not left with much.

This system also ignores lower level leagues. I'd argue that the English Championship is a better league than a lot of other country's top tier leagues.

rocktml
01-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Difference in player upbringing means comparing skill levels is a bit apples and oranges.

But in terms of overall league quality MLS is ahead of Slovenia and Finland.

Poland traditionally has had some very strong teams, so maybe not.

Definitely a little behind Norway, Slovakia and Sweden, but not by much.

But again, it's a silly Euro-centric scoring system.

I'm polish, My dad would slap me in the face if I told him the MLS was ahead of the Ekstraklasa.

Cashcleaner
01-11-2011, 06:06 PM
I remember seeing these stats released last year and thought they were way-off then. I still don't think it's a very accurate assessment of MLS and would argue that perhaps a little anti-Yank bias is skewing the results.

69Chevy396
01-11-2011, 07:02 PM
Too many variables to evaluate: What would the epl or la Liga look like without all the foreign talent? What would MLS look like with more top American players playing here, and not in europe? How good is the bottom half of the French league? Is the average MLS team better than the bottom third of Serie A? This survey is "fool" of holes.

TorCanSoc
01-11-2011, 07:14 PM
the iffhs is a bit of a bingo hall for ratings anyway.

iffhs is probably some dude with some (marginal) web design skills, and that's it.

v00d00daddy
01-11-2011, 07:34 PM
Too many variables to evaluate.

I agree but I'll take a stab at those rhetoricals..lol


What would the epl or la Liga look like without all the foreign talent?

EPL.....kinda like the SPL...just a little better.
La Liga.....not as good...but still really really good.


What would MLS look like with more top American players playing here, and not in europe?

Marginally better.


How good is the bottom half of the French league?

Easily 40 times better than the bottom half of MLS...lol


Is the average MLS team better than the bottom third of Serie A?

Not even close. The average MLS team would have a hard time scoring a goal against the bottom third of Serie A.


40 something on the list means we shouldn't even be discussing it...really.

MLS is not a good league but it's the best league we got so we might as well support it and hope it gets better over time. (which it has been doing over the last 15 years.)

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 08:34 PM
EPL.....kinda like the SPL...just a little better.

I really don't think so at. Obviously the league would suffer greatly, but the lack of talent would be made up for in a change of style. Instead of it being a fast-passed league with constant pressure it would end up looking like the Serie A is now (in therms of style, not quality). The lower leagues would be horrible to watch but there are enough good players in the championship to fill out foreign-free premiership rosters and it would stil be vastly better than the Scottish league. It would be similar to the French, Russian or Dutch leagues in terms of quality, but stylistically less exciting - more laid back, little pressure, defend as a team type of play.

leosc
01-11-2011, 10:45 PM
Actually, the BPL is No. 2 in the world. The criteria is based on the performance of the top 5 teams in the league when competing in international tourneys.

greatwhitenorf
01-11-2011, 10:58 PM
Do they give out prizes for top rankings?

There's probably profound jealousy since MLS lured away Beckham, Henry, Dichio and, of course, Laurent Robert.

Nazzer
01-12-2011, 02:16 AM
One time I emailed these guys about their rankings and pointed out some of their flaws and they didn't seem concered.

As someone else already pointed out one major reason for all concacaf leagues (other than mexico) not scoring well is that the total points earned by a league depend on how many competitions. And this is a gross (not disgusting) but gross as in total.

Leagues in Europe, South America (probably Asia too but Im not sure) have opportunities to have 6-8 teams adding to their points total through international competitions. Concacaf teams (other than mexico) have maximim 4 teams adding to their total.

Also, keep in mind they use 5 years worth of points for this. So before the Champions League started the only way for Concacaf teams to get points was through the Champions Cup. So they only had 2 teams from each league (max) getting point from maximum 6 games. Compare that to the Premier League who usually has 6-7 teams earning points in prelim, group stage, and knockout rounds of a competition.

The system used is stupid and not worth wasting your time thinking about. I feel stupid for having wasted my time typing so many words about such a useless system.

MartinUtd
01-12-2011, 02:33 AM
Actually, the BPL is No. 2 in the world. The criteria is based on the performance of the top 5 teams in the league when competing in international tourneys.

BPL?

Oldtimer
01-12-2011, 07:29 AM
BPL?

BPL = "Barclay's Premier League," using the sponsor's name.

Oldtimer
01-12-2011, 07:32 AM
My take on this is that the weighting method underestimates MLS, given that it is based only on the best clubs in each league, and MLS has much more parity than is typical.

My guess is that MLS is really in the 20's, when you take the league as a whole.

torontocelt
01-12-2011, 07:33 AM
I would imagine he means the British premier league which doesn't exist as it is the EPL. Many people make mistakes like this when discussing the UK. My old manager at work who is Irish always used to ask me when I was going home to England to see my parents despite her knowing I am Scottish and despite her having other Scottish friends. Considering she is Irish I would have thought she knew more about the UK especially the difference between Scots and English but obviously not.

Well I stand corrected, Barclays Premier League is what he could mean for sure, apologies.

jaahuuu
01-12-2011, 10:10 AM
One time I emailed these guys about their rankings and pointed out some of their flaws and they didn't seem concered.

As someone else already pointed out one major reason for all concacaf leagues (other than mexico) not scoring well is that the total points earned by a league depend on how many competitions. And this is a gross (not disgusting) but gross as in total.

Leagues in Europe, South America (probably Asia too but Im not sure) have opportunities to have 6-8 teams adding to their points total through international competitions. Concacaf teams (other than mexico) have maximim 4 teams adding to their total.

Also, keep in mind they use 5 years worth of points for this. So before the Champions League started the only way for Concacaf teams to get points was through the Champions Cup. So they only had 2 teams from each league (max) getting point from maximum 6 games. Compare that to the Premier League who usually has 6-7 teams earning points in prelim, group stage, and knockout rounds of a competition.

The system used is stupid and not worth wasting your time thinking about. I feel stupid for having wasted my time typing so many words about such a useless system.
So if I'm thinking about this right, they could make this significantly more accurate by taking the points earned by each league, and dividing that by the number of points available to teams in the league, then dividing that number by the number of teams in the league.

Juanito
01-12-2011, 10:11 AM
We're a relatively new league, It will just take some time for people to notice us. Personally, I'm just happy we have a league of our own and the quality is slowly improving.

djking2
01-12-2011, 03:24 PM
If you think the league rating is nuts check this page out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concacaf

Scroll down and look at the sixth highest rated club in the concacaf region. Better than RSL or Columbus

Now I like IFFHS :)

jloome
01-12-2011, 03:38 PM
If you think the league rating is nuts check this page out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concacaf

Scroll down and look at the sixth highest rated club in the concacaf region. Better than RSL or Columbus

Now I like IFFHS :)

All the weighting there is from the win over Cruz Azul. Hilarious.

trane
01-12-2011, 03:44 PM
Is the average MLS team better than the bottom third of Serie A? .

I will say it as politley as possible. No, not even close. In fact the average MLS team is not better that the bottom third of Serie B, not even close. they may have some better athletes but as teams go, tactics, team play ect. not even close.

Mou was interviewed in a Spanish paper last week or the week before, and discriped how tacticaly proficient Serie A was, how even the smallest of teams is ready to play agaist the Italian CL teams. [ that is why Mou succeded his team was ready week in an week out, Benitez on the other handnot so much]

I would say that the 2nd division the top Euro league, Italy, Spain, Englan, France, Germany and probably Holland is superior to the MLS.

rocker
01-12-2011, 03:51 PM
If you think the league rating is nuts check this page out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concacaf

Scroll down and look at the sixth highest rated club in the concacaf region. Better than RSL or Columbus

Now I like IFFHS :)

hmmm.... ya... now I love these ratings!! they are so smart those people ;)

trane
01-12-2011, 03:53 PM
I do think that the key is player development, accross Europe and the world, football is THE SPORT, with a few expections, there are devepolment systems in place and plenty of player to train. Your pool of players trained to play a good skilled team game is just so much greater in other countries. We are far away from that. I think Canada will get there, I am not sure about the states.

NBS
01-12-2011, 03:56 PM
If you think the league rating is nuts check this page out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concacaf

Scroll down and look at the sixth highest rated club in the concacaf region. Better than RSL or Columbus

Now I like IFFHS :)

Wow. If this doesn't discredit the IFFHS ranking methodology,nothing ever will.

trane
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
^ I am not sure that it does completley we did well, in CL, we played some of our best football. I think the main issue is that when we played the Mexican teams when they were in pre-season form, while we were in our mid season form. But we did play our best footy of the season in some of those games.

djking2
01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
All the weighting there is from the win over Cruz Azul. Hilarious.

My son picked up on this first actually so I should credit him. We figured the win over CA was the thing that skewed it too but it's actually the national championship that does it not individual wins. Each win is only 9 points regardless of the competitor. That said probably just another reason the ratings suck

james
01-12-2011, 04:11 PM
MLS attendence wise id say we are for sure in the top 20 as most of the 16 teams in MLS can average about 16,000 or so a game. Alot of other leagues in europe and around the world often have maybe 2 or 3 big teams that might get 30,000 - 50,000 fans a game and are the only teams that ever win the league while the rest of the teams in the leagues get less then 10,000 fans a game and really have no chance of ever winning anything. MLS any team can win and there is no real giants.

As for skill i think MLS could very likely be around 44th or even worse. We even strugle against tiny little teams in Central America that dont even have stadiums or any money. We would get destroyed in most Euro Leagues. And compared to the England League id say we are in more par with teams in League 1 or 2. Which actually makes sense as i believe are spending on players is more in line to League 1 or 2 as well.

NBS
01-12-2011, 04:24 PM
^ I am not sure that it does completley we did well, in CL, we played some of our best football. I think the main issue is that when we played the Mexican teams when they were in pre-season form, while we were in our mid season form. But we did play our best footy of the season in some of those games.

I understand why Toronto is ranked so high, but my point is that it goes to show how misleading these rankings can be. A lesser informed person might look at that and think that Toronto is among the elite teams in MLS, and we know nothing can be further from the truth. The methodology is weak due to woefully insufficient information to create a credible working model for ranking teams across leagues. A credible organization should not even attempt to put out a model with so many gaping holes in it. It's best to just not have a ranking system at all. You can't force analysis when the analysis isn't there to be had.

Oldtimer
01-14-2011, 01:21 PM
I would say that the 2nd division the top Euro league, Italy, Spain, Englan, France, Germany and probably Holland is superior to the MLS.

Most players who have played in both rank MLS on average in the bottom half of the Championship (English second division). TFC would, of course, be significantly worse than this. Most League 1 or 2 players (English third and fourth divisions) struggle in MLS (Andy Welsh was a perfect example).

There has been little interchange between the US and Italy, so I have to trust your assessment on Serie B.

When I lived in France, the Ligue 2 matches that I saw live were not significantly better than MLS. France is somewhat more technical at that level, North America is somewhat more physical, but I think that a playoff-quality MLS side (i.e. not TFC the last 4 years) could hold their own.

trane
01-14-2011, 01:25 PM
^ Italy in all divisions is first and formost about team tactics, players are disciplined and either play in the system of sit. Also the players are skilled, meaning, they know how to shot, pass, tackle ect. While I am not sure about athletismc and physicality, a Serie B side would be much better organized then an MLS side, which in a team game I suspect would give them a considerable edge.

Ontario Arab
01-16-2011, 05:58 PM
Not sure if MLS is above Sweden, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway or Finland in quality.
Agreed

69Chevy396
01-16-2011, 06:09 PM
MLS attendence wise id say we are for sure in the top 20 as most of the 16 teams in MLS can average about 16,000 or so a game. Alot of other leagues in europe and around the world often have maybe 2 or 3 big teams that might get 30,000 - 50,000 fans a game and are the only teams that ever win the league while the rest of the teams in the leagues get less then 10,000 fans a game and really have no chance of ever winning anything. MLS any team can win and there is no real giants.

As for skill i think MLS could very likely be around 44th or even worse. We even strugle against tiny little teams in Central America that dont even have stadiums or any money. We would get destroyed in most Euro Leagues. And compared to the England League id say we are in more par with teams in League 1 or 2. Which actually makes sense as i believe are spending on players is more in line to League 1 or 2 as well.

Slightly off topic, I wiki'd that team in Germany where Buddle signed with, and despite its relatively high rating in the second German division averages less than 5000 per game. So much for being a better league than mls.

werewolf
01-16-2011, 06:36 PM
^ FC Ingolstadt is 17th of 18 in the 2. Bundesliga. The town has a population of about 125 000.

Oldtimer
01-19-2011, 08:19 AM
Not sure if MLS is above Sweden, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway or Finland in quality.

Finland is certainly below MLS. Hockey is bigger there than football, and they have a small player pool.

colman1860
01-20-2011, 05:54 AM
Edson Buddle signing with a second division team in Germany doesn't help things here.

FWIW, I watch all of TFC's and 1860 Munich's game, and would agree that the German 2nd league is stronger than MLS.