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DangerRed
01-10-2011, 11:52 AM
Take it for what you will, but interesting anyway:

JDG2 wants to play for Toronto FC
by
Ben Rycroft (http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/member.php?3362-Ben-Rycroft)
Published on 01-09-2011 06:31 PM
27 Comments (http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?926-JDG2-wants-to-play-for-Toronto-FC#comments) http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/images/misc/comment.png
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=589&d=1294617530 (http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=589&d=1294617530)

It would seem the Oranj revolution continues.

Jonathan De Guzman, younger brother to Julian (and pariah to any national team fan), told a Dutch news site today (http://www.nieuwslog.nl/2011/01/09/exclusief-de-guzman-ik-wil-ooit-nog-voor-feyenoord-spelen/) that if he could play for any club in the world, he would like to play for Toronto FC.


"I'd like to play for my hometown Toronto FC"


The 23-year-old, who turned down Premiership offers this year, is in year one of a three year deal with Real Mallorca.

While it's fun to play out scenarios that include Julian as the defensive midfielder and Jonathan as the attacking mid, don't expect anything to come of this. He has plenty of years left in him for European play and if he's still interested in suiting up for the Dutch national team, he'll need to remain visible to do so.

But if, as he's indicated recently, he's considering re-joining the Canadian program, an MLS move wouldn't be out of the question - a few years down the line.

What do you think? Would you want another DeGuzman on Toronto? Would you accept him, even if he ultimately decides not to play for Canada?

Parkdale
01-10-2011, 11:53 AM
please please please please please

Parkdale
01-10-2011, 11:56 AM
What do you think? Would you want another DeGuzman on Toronto? Would you accept him, even if he ultimately decides not to play for Canada?


TFC and the CMNT are independent things. If he won't play for canada, but will play for TFC, I'd be okay with that.

ginkster88
01-10-2011, 11:57 AM
The general sentiment will be that he can't play here. I don't care if he didn't choose Canada, he'd be great in Toronto red.

Carts
01-10-2011, 11:59 AM
TFC and the CMNT are independent things. If he won't play for canada, but will play for TFC, I'd be okay with that.

I hate seeing Canadian kids turn their back on our national team - but if he's a great player that can help TFC, I'll take him...

Carts...

Suds
01-10-2011, 11:59 AM
I'd cut his brother loose for him :D

Maybe in 6-7 years we'll see him in TFC red.

Roogsy
01-10-2011, 12:21 PM
I have always been very vocal about his choice of the Netherlands over Canada. So to me this would be a little bitter sweet. But there is simply no denying his talent. If he fits into whatever system Toronto develops, of course I would take him. That being said...it has to be a great fit. I think his brother is a talent as well but it hasn't worked out great in Toronto so it has to be the right move for us.

CretanBull
01-10-2011, 12:25 PM
I'll gladly welcome internationals from any country who want to play for TFC...except ones who have turned their backs on Canada.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-10-2011, 12:26 PM
always preferred he played for canada but i wouldnt turn my back on him.
dont see this happening for some time.

Nodoubtguy
01-10-2011, 12:35 PM
ummm....yes! TFC is not the CMNT and the CMNT in not TFC

BeerBaron95
01-10-2011, 12:58 PM
ummm....yes! TFC is not the CMNT and the CMNT in not TFC

Correct!! I cant understand the issue with him not wanting to play for CMNT.. im completely ok with the fact that he believes he has a chance to better his international career by playing for Holland.

I am a club before country guy anyways.. so if we can get him on TFC i will gladly overlook the CMNT issue.

TOBOR !
01-10-2011, 01:26 PM
come on guys. think this through. the good JDG said if there was one club he wishes he could play for it's TFC ? really ? he's having a larf.

that aside, if it was to transpire I'd much rather he played for the Dutch squad than Canada. He'd be better if he was Dutch.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-10-2011, 01:31 PM
im sure he does want to play for us, just not immediately, prob some time in the long run near the end of his career (hes young, talented and i dont blame him)

SilverSamurai
01-10-2011, 01:34 PM
This is weird...
I don't quite get how he wants to play for his hometown but he chose the Dutch squad because he claimed to feel more Dutch vs. Canadian...
I'm torn...

Yohan
01-10-2011, 01:44 PM
because picking dutch will earn him more money in europe...

DangerRed
01-10-2011, 01:46 PM
Just a point of clarification: the question on TFC vs CMNT is part of the article and wasn't written by me.

As far as my opinion, it's always been the same: club before country.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-10-2011, 01:53 PM
nothings saying he isnt questioning his decision to play for the dutch nats especially as they have a dearth of players in tha tposition and dude has never been called up, im sure hes reevaluating it especially as hes getting older and prob realizing how much Canada/Toronto mean to him (even if he has been away for a minute)

Azerban
01-10-2011, 02:06 PM
shit thread, fold it into the next year roster thread also give me a internet red card for calling spades spades

bones
01-10-2011, 02:17 PM
I think having a talented player on TFC that CAN'T be taken away by the CMNT (with our other good players) is actually a bonus. I can remember playing with so few players (yes, some were not fit to play) that we had to field a non-player ;) Funny enough we won the game, but still. My point is made here I think. I'd take him gladly.

Also, if this guy is as professional and has the same class as his brother then hell yes I'd take him.

Bones...

werewolf
01-10-2011, 02:31 PM
I'll gladly welcome internationals from any country who want to play for TFC...except ones who have turned their backs on Canada.

:iagree:

my opinions and feelings dont have an immediate on and off switch.

Wull
01-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Well his brother is getting paid $2m a year to miss curfew and do fuck all, who wouldn't want to play for us?!

Alixir
01-10-2011, 02:50 PM
fuck that turncoat.

Carts
01-10-2011, 02:57 PM
I have always been very vocal about his choice of the Netherlands over Canada. So to me this would be a little bitter sweet. But there is simply no denying his talent. If he fits into whatever system Toronto develops, of course I would take him. That being said...it has to be a great fit. I think his brother is a talent as well but it hasn't worked out great in Toronto so it has to be the right move for us.

+1... Sums up my feelings too...

Macksam
01-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Correct!! I cant understand the issue with him not wanting to play for CMNT.. im completely ok with the fact that he believes he has a chance to better his international career by playing for Holland.

I am a club before country guy anyways.. so if we can get him on TFC i will gladly overlook the CMNT issue.
What don't you understand?

Jeffro
01-10-2011, 03:11 PM
Well his brother is getting paid $2m a year to miss curfew and do fuck all, who wouldn't want to play for us?!

you're like a fuckin' broken record man. You don't like JDG, we get it.

West220Side
01-10-2011, 03:13 PM
We should turn our backs on him, just like he turned his back on Canada. I would not welcome him at TFC.

shwade
01-10-2011, 03:15 PM
This is weird...
I don't quite get how he wants to play for his hometown but he chose the Dutch squad because he claimed to feel more Dutch vs. Canadian...
I'm torn...

True this.

Juanito
01-10-2011, 03:33 PM
He would probably be the best striker we had, can't argue with that. Why would he want to leave Spain though? I would assume he would have to be a DP.

Nodoubtguy
01-10-2011, 03:36 PM
We should turn our backs on him, just like he turned his back on Canada. I would not welcome him at TFC.

What does playing for TFC have to do with the CMNT??

Yeoman
01-10-2011, 03:58 PM
What does playing for TFC have to do with the CMNT??

alot to some people around here apparently

CretanBull
01-10-2011, 04:00 PM
What does playing for TFC have to do with the CMNT??

Personally, I have no respect for anyone who turns their back on Canada. I don't want to pay to see/support someone who I have no respect for.

Alixir
01-10-2011, 04:01 PM
What does playing for TFC have to do with the CMNT?? Not even loyal to the country he was born...what makes you think he would be loyal to TFC.

DangerRed
01-10-2011, 04:07 PM
Not even loyal to the country he was born...what makes you think he would be loyal to TFC.

Now THAT is eminently idiotic. You're saying that because he left a country that at the time (and even now, I would say) has no serious footballing future whatsoever, his club loyalty is shot? What shred of evidence do you have to substantiate that he has been anything but loyal to the clubs for which he has played?

Check your head, dude.

Alixir
01-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Check your head, dude. Yeah I checked and umm..its still there. Thats a good thing right.

BeachFC
01-10-2011, 05:23 PM
There are many people that have a choice in which country they choose to play for, to have that choice you need to impress your country. On the flip side the country has to impress you too. CMNT hasn't been a very attractive option recently. Hopefully that's changing. I don't harbour any ill will to players that make the decision to play for another country. I'd rather have characters on the national team that have the passion to be the trailblazers and leaders of a new era. JDG2 is only 23, if he had a change of heart, or if the CMNT is finally looking attractive, then I'd take him back. As for TFC, I want the best players period, and as long as they are wearing the colours of my team I will support them.

Super Cereal
01-10-2011, 05:35 PM
:iagree:

my opinions and feelings dont have an immediate on and off switch.

Same, unfortunately, as he really is a talented player.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-10-2011, 06:07 PM
no problems here, disappointed but im not going to have my club suffer for his foolishness

J .
01-10-2011, 06:31 PM
Id boo him mercilessly

Flint
01-10-2011, 06:31 PM
I would take him in a heartbeat. Anything to improve our team and we all know he has talent.

Waggy
01-10-2011, 06:58 PM
TFC and the CMNT have strong ties. We play in Canadas National Soccer stadium. MLSE has a long history of boosting national programs (Hockey at the complex for the Leafs, basketball with their braintrust, coaches and practice facilities, as well as stadiums). Hell the Jays are tightly tied to Canadian Baseball even. Toronto is the centre of Canadian sport (sorry to everyone reading this outside Toronto, but you're only mad because you know that's true. Yes, even the CFL).

It's no coincidence that Canada Soccer seemed to change course once TFC became established. The Academy has a mandate to promote Canadian athletes. And the Reds have a mandate to field Canadian players (though that's of less importance now). And I bet the new home of all the Canadian teams will be the new practice facility being built.

Unless he reversed his decision to play for the Dutch (which really might be a smart decision. I know he's playing well but he's burried on that depth chart. Would you rather be on the Dutch B or C team or the Canadian A team? Keeping in mind it looks like CS is slowly removing its head from its ass) I wouldn't want him on TFC. Should he come back to the nat program, I'd have no problem with him in red.

BeerBaron95
01-10-2011, 08:44 PM
What don't you understand?

Allow me to rephrase.. Im not hung up on the subject of him not choosing to play for Canada as some ppl are. Quite frankly I could care less he chose to play for Holland and not Canada.

Would gladly take him on TFC.


Clear enough for you?

BeerBaron95
01-10-2011, 08:46 PM
What does playing for TFC have to do with the CMNT??

Exactly... obviously you get it and see the big picture... Thanks Sal
:flare:

Macksam
01-10-2011, 09:39 PM
Allow me to rephrase.. Im not hung up on the subject of him not choosing to play for Canada as some ppl are. Quite frankly I could care less he chose to play for Holland and not Canada.

Would gladly take him on TFC.


Clear enough for you?
Sure, but how come you don't quite understand why others are hung up on it?

What you said in this post doesn't clear up your previous statement at all.

zeelaw
01-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Honestly fuck the guy, and how hypocritical considering we won't develop youngsters who don't want to play for Canada.

jazzy
01-10-2011, 10:24 PM
so if I don't want to see an above talented footballer on TFC, I am going to every TFC game for what reason exactly?........to be noticed, ??, expand hot air, ? or watch an exciting game of footie? ....Anything not to watch Columbus beat us ever again, .......He may one of the few Dp's that I'd agree to,..notwithstanding other dutch system devotees...........as I want to see in the future TFC "TOTAL FOOTBALL"

Waggy
01-10-2011, 10:30 PM
so if I don't want to see an above talented footballer on TFC, I am going to every TFC game for what reason exactly?........to be noticed, ??, expand hot air, ? or watch an exciting game of footie? ....Anything not to watch Columbus beat us ever again, .......He may one of the few Dp's that I'd agree to,..notwithstanding other dutch system devotees...........as I want to see in the future TFC "TOTAL FOOTBALL"

No-ones criticising you. Don't you think it says something about his character to leave his home country because he was unable to persue his football dreams there, change his mind, and want to come back because he wants to represent his home town but he still doesnt want to represent his country? So he'll be a guy who was born here, raised here, lives here, makes his living here, and playing for the Dutch national team. Think about it for a minute.

Suds
01-10-2011, 10:44 PM
No-ones criticising you. Don't you think it says something about his character to leave his home country because he was unable to persue his football dreams there, change his mind, and want to come back because he wants to represent his home town but he still doesnt want to represent his country? So he'll be a guy who was born here, raised here, lives here, makes his living here, and playing for the Dutch national team. Think about it for a minute.

I hear your point, but if he ever came back here to play he wouldn't be playing for the Dutch national team. Be it now or when he's much older and not an option for international duty.

Anyway ... it's a non-issue. Jonathan is not coming here any time soon.

Pachuco
01-10-2011, 10:54 PM
No-ones criticising you. Don't you think it says something about his character to leave his home country because he was unable to persue his football dreams there, change his mind, and want to come back because he wants to represent his home town but he still doesnt want to represent his country? So he'll be a guy who was born here, raised here, lives here, makes his living here, and playing for the Dutch national team. Think about it for a minute.

Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

werewolf
01-10-2011, 10:56 PM
Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

wuh di ass?


:confused:

Fushida
01-10-2011, 11:02 PM
Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

Exactly. I find it hilarious that there are no complaints about Radzinski, De Jong, Jakovic, Pacheco, Klukowski. Canada wasn't their home country was it? Didn't see too many complaints when they decided to rep us instead. JDG2 went to Holland when he was what, 12? 14? What does he owe Canada exactly?

Juanito
01-10-2011, 11:11 PM
Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

I think you mean Dutch, not Deutsh ..... and I agree with what you say.

J .
01-10-2011, 11:12 PM
Exactly. I find it hilarious that there are no complaints about Radzinski, De Jong, Jakovic, Pacheco, Klukowski. Canada wasn't their home country was it? Didn't see too many complaints when they decided to rep us instead. JDG2 went to Holland when he was what, 12? 14? What does he owe Canada exactly?


Nothing.

Same amount as we owe him.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-10-2011, 11:27 PM
I think you mean Dutch, not Deutsh ..... and I agree with what you say.

yep this is the deutsche
http://www.dfb.de/typo3temp/pics/da8339a935.jpg

CretanBull
01-10-2011, 11:41 PM
Exactly. I find it hilarious that there are no complaints about Radzinski, De Jong, Jakovic, Pacheco, Klukowski. Canada wasn't their home country was it? Didn't see too many complaints when they decided to rep us instead. JDG2 went to Holland when he was what, 12? 14? What does he owe Canada exactly?

I'm not against immigrants representing their adopted country, but by JDG2's own admission he identifies as being Canadian - and turned his back on us for opportunity, not nationalistic reasons.

TFCDP
01-11-2011, 12:14 AM
We should close this thread, then reopen it in 5 years when there is a chance of JDG2 coming here.

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 12:23 AM
Sure, but how come you don't quite understand why others are hung up on it?

What you said in this post doesn't clear up your previous statement at all.

How did i not clear up my statement... I dont care he chose to play for holland than for Canada.

What is it with him having to play for the country he was born in, knowing he has 2 citizenships.. he chose what was best for his career and building his soccer potential/skill.

Im a proud canadian but if given the chance he had, I would have made the exact same choice... Club team has nothing to do with the MNT.. lets not lose sight of that.

Troll
01-11-2011, 12:27 AM
We should close this thread, then reopen it in 5 years when there is a chance of JDG2 coming here.



Agreed. Until then, this thread fails.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/dawges/fail/2229497640_5281567d85_o.jpg

Waggy
01-11-2011, 12:58 AM
Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

I did think about that, but it's a lot more complex than you're making it out to be. He went over there at 14 right? But he still identifies himself as a Canadian. I'm not questioning whether or not he should be on the Dutch team now. But if he were to say to the world: I want to represent my home and my city but doesn't include my country too I think it would be incredibly hypocritical. And it would say to me that clearly he isn't in Toronto for the long haul, but only here as a short term mercenary. I don't want TFC to be good for one or two years, but ALL years. But ya, him making a move to MLS now would SHOCK me so this is prob all moot.

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 01:08 AM
Club team has nothing to do with the MNT.. lets not lose sight of that.

How can you be a TFC fan and say that? They have a Maple Leaf on their jersey, have a Canadian flag on their sleeve, have a stated goal of developing Canadian players, use Canadian internationals to market and promo the team, make Canadian eligilable academy players promise to declare for Canada. How can you say that this team has nothing to do with the MNT when it's done everything imaginable to link itself to the MNT?

Bringing in a player who's turned his back on our country goes against everything that this team has said it stands for and represents.

Shakes McQueen
01-11-2011, 02:09 AM
Except that any meaningfull soccer he's played and training he's received happened in Holland. You are conveniently cutting out a big part of his life for the sake of your argument. He's been gone from this country just as long as he's lived in this country. The Deutsch have spent way more resources on bringing up the kid then Canada ever did. He's played on the national youth teams as well. I'm sorry, but if you were Deutsch, I'm sure you'd be saying he'd be turning his back on Holland at this point.

I think you're kind of misunderstanding why I personally think people don't like what he did. It isn't about people being upset that Canada didn't get a return on investment from him, it's that they feel he should have been more honoured to represent the country he grew up in - the land of opportunity his family benefited from.

I didn't (and still don't) like his decision to call himself Dutch from a footballing perspective. That said, I'd choke back those feelings if he came to TFC.

On another note, I don't like it when players say they'd like to come to MLS "in a few years" (the implication always being "when my best years are behind me"). It doesn't help the league's reputation as a haven for near retirees to cash in.

- Scott

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 04:33 AM
How can you be a TFC fan and say that? They have a Maple Leaf on their jersey, have a Canadian flag on their sleeve, have a stated goal of developing Canadian players, use Canadian internationals to market and promo the team, make Canadian eligilable academy players promise to declare for Canada. How can you say that this team has nothing to do with the MNT when it's done everything imaginable to link itself to the MNT?

Bringing in a player who's turned his back on our country goes against everything that this team has said it stands for and represents.

Maybe u are not understanding... when i say one has nothing to do with the other it means that JDG2 choosing to not play or declaring for Canada should'nt impact his decision to play for TFC.

Ppl around here need to chill out with it... If this is the basis to not wanting/having him on TFC and make the team that much better, then that is ridiculous and absurd... Hate on him for not playing on the CMNT to your hearts desire but dont say he shouldnt play for TFC because of it

I care far more about TFC than I do the CMNT.. I will support Canada when they play but TFC comes first every day of the week for me. I wont hate on a guy who chooses to play under a different national team. There are alot of cases exactly like this in many other sports including futbol

so that being said

1. So should I as a Canadian be a Toronto Maple Leafs because they have a leaf on their shirt too?

2. Keep the dramatics to a minimum

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 04:35 AM
I didn't (and still don't) like his decision to call himself Dutch from a footballing perspective. That said, I'd choke back those feelings if he came to TFC.


- Scott

EXACTLY!!!

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 08:46 AM
Maybe u are not understanding... when i say one has nothing to do with the other it means that JDG2 choosing to not play or declaring for Canada should'nt impact his decision to play for TFC.

As far as his point of view goes, I have no doubt that he thinks that he should be able to play for whatever team he wants to. As supporters, we also get to make choices about who we accept and who we don't. I wouldn't accept him based on his decision to turn his back on our country.



Ppl around here need to chill out with it... If this is the basis to not wanting/having him on TFC and make the team that much better, then that is ridiculous and absurd... Hate on him for not playing on the CMNT to your hearts desire but dont say he shouldnt play for TFC because of it


I think character matters. I don't follow the NFL, but if I did I wouldn't want Michael Vick on my team. Why is it ridiculous and absurd to make people accountable for the decisions that they've made? He chose Holland over Canada - good for him - but one of the reprocussions of that decision is that he isn't welcomed to play for a team that's dedicated to developing Canadian talent.



I care far more about TFC than I do the CMNT.. I will support Canada when they play but TFC comes first every day of the week for me. I wont hate on a guy who chooses to play under a different national team. There are alot of cases exactly like this in many other sports including futbol


That's cool, I understand your point of view. Other people feel differently though, I'd always put country before club. Playing for a club means playing for a pay-check. Playing for your country means playing for pride. When players make themselves mercenaries and turn their backs on where they are from to further their career its shows that they don't value pride.



so that being said

1. So should I as a Canadian be a Toronto Maple Leafs because they have a leaf on their shirt too?


You can be a fan of whoever you want. This isn't about fans, its about TFC's choice to link itself to the national program in every possible way and whether or not it should welcome a player who turned his back on the national program. Based on TFC's own stated goals, it would be a hypocritical move.



2. Keep the dramatics to a minimum


No drama, just people sharing ideas ;)

In short, my point of view is that no matter how bad things are at TFC I'm not interested in turning to a traitor to become our saviour. We can't be that desparate - there are other players in the world who would come here for the kind of money JDG2 would want.

Macksam
01-11-2011, 09:01 AM
How did i not clear up my statement... I dont care he chose to play for holland than for Canada.

What is it with him having to play for the country he was born in, knowing he has 2 citizenships.. he chose what was best for his career and building his soccer potential/skill.

Im a proud canadian but if given the chance he had, I would have made the exact same choice... Club team has nothing to do with the MNT.. lets not lose sight of that.

You didn't answer my question on why you are confused about how other people have a problem with it.

Why do you think others would have a problem with it? Come on, man up and think this through.

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 09:06 AM
You didn't answer my question on why you are confused about how other people have a problem with it.

Why do you think others would have a problem with it? Come on, man up and think this through.

lmao.. *pats macksam on head* go bark up another tree... seriously, move along.

LMFAO.. got my laugh of the day with that

Parkdale
01-11-2011, 09:18 AM
ease it up guys.


let's not get bothered over a strictly hypothetical situation.

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 09:23 AM
ease it up guys.


let's not get bothered over a strictly hypothetical situation.

cool as a cucumber Parky.. im still wiping away tears from that :D

Parkdale
01-11-2011, 09:31 AM
oh I know you're laughing it off.

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 09:33 AM
Indeed :D

Pachuco
01-11-2011, 10:21 AM
I think you're kind of misunderstanding why I personally think people don't like what he did. It isn't about people being upset that Canada didn't get a return on investment from him, it's that they feel he should have been more honoured to represent the country he grew up in - the land of opportunity his family benefited from.

I didn't (and still don't) like his decision to call himself Dutch from a footballing perspective. That said, I'd choke back those feelings if he came to TFC.

On another note, I don't like it when players say they'd like to come to MLS "in a few years" (the implication always being "when my best years are behind me"). It doesn't help the league's reputation as a haven for near retirees to cash in.

- Scott

I'm not mis-understanding anyone. My only mis-understanding was the spelling of Dutch. I was replying directly to someone who was conveniently leaving out a massive part of JDG2's career in order to make a point that he shoul've selected Canada. That's all.

I understand why some people aren't happy with his decision, although I'll never agree with it. I came here when I was 10. If I made it to play professional football I certainly would've represented Canada and not my native country. I would've used their resources and climbed up the latter in Canada's system. But I sure as hell wouldn't expect my native country to piss on me because I chose Canada. And guess what? I identify with being Venezolano. When people ask me where I am from, I say Venezuela. My culture is something I won't let go and is something I'll never stop identifying with. I feel way more Venezuelan then I do Canadian. But that won't make a difference in who I represent. JDG2 learned to play soccer beginning at the age of 12 in Holland. I'm sure most of what he knows he learned there. He may feel Canadian, but he knows Dutsch soccer and he would be turning his back on the Dutsch if he chose Canada at this point.

Nobody will ever convince me that if the situation was reversed that most of you wouldn't be sitting here complaining about how JDG2 used Canadian resources and then turned his back on Canada. Let's say TFC's academy finds the next Sanyang at 12 years old. He moves here, gets his citizenship, represents Canada's youth national teams and then goes off and at 23 years of age he decides to play for Gambia. Would you not be insulted? would you not be sitting here saying what the heck did TFC's Academy and the national team programs invest all this money for if he is just going to turn his back?

There are many times on this site that I feel people are way to sensitive to the whole CMNT thing and players leaving, even those with good reason. Take your hatred out on the pathetic organization that runs soccer in this country and stop taking it out on those that left because Canada gave them no choice. The new generation of Canadians have something to look forward to (albeit thanks to the U.S getting their act together with soccer). JDG2 didn't have that when he was 12 so who can blame him?

As for him being allowed to play for TFC, I hold no grudges if it makes the team better. TFC is who I support, TFC is the team I fund and someone's decision to play or not play for Canada is irrelevant. We have lots of foreigners on the team, he would just simply be another foreigner on the team.

scooter
01-11-2011, 10:44 AM
lets not even go there he would probably be another bust like his brother

lets think and look forward to the future our new management/coaches will develop our own homegrown players

no more time for the deguzmans of the world cause reading between the lines i think what is really meant is he would like to play for tfc if they are foolish enough to throw money at him like they did his brother

ie 1.7 million to do sweet f--k all

who wouldnt come home for that kind of cake

dero came home and he wants some cake too

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 10:47 AM
Pachuco, I understand your point of view, but wouldn't you agree that because TFC have tied its identity and purpose to the CMNT and the developement of Canadian players that the issue is more complicated? From an idological perspective, how can they say the purpose of the club is to develope Canadian talent - to the point where they make academy players promise to play for Canada - and then bring in a star player who's turned his back on Canada?

brad
01-11-2011, 11:02 AM
Nobody will ever convince me that if the situation was reversed that most of you wouldn't be sitting here complaining about how JDG2 used Canadian resources and then turned his back on Canada.

Radzinski. Polish, started his playing career in Poland. Moved to Germany around the age of 14 for around 3 years. Came to Canada when he was 17 or 18. He was only in Canada for around 4 years before going back overseas to play.

Didn't here a lot of folks complaining about that him playing for Canada. So yes, I would agree that the blinders only go one way...

Roogsy
01-11-2011, 11:06 AM
I think the issue here is that while TFC does promote the ideal of helping the CMNT, there is no official tie and no direct obligation of TFC to do so. Their stated goal is to help develop soccer in Canada, which in itself implies helping the CMNT, but their goal in helping "develop" soccer is simply to entrench their own product. There is no altruistic goal on the part of TFC. This is purely a protective measure to make sure their own product survives and thrives.

At the end of the day, TFC should do what is in it's own best interest. When it serves them, they will use "soccer in Canada" to their advantage. But when it doesn't suit them, believe me they won't pay much attention to the CMNT or the CSA.

The same goes with players. I personally find what JDG did distasteful but it was his choice and I am not going to get all worked up about it. We have nationals from other countries on TFC (or did at least, I don't think we have a single national except for Canadians anymore LOL!) and these players would technically be our "enemies" on the pitch during international competitions. However, while on TFC, they are "our" players. I would feel the same about JDG2 if he even finds his way to TFC. To me...he is no longer Canadian. So if he can come here and help us win an MLS Cup...so be it. He won't be my favourite player, but I certainly won't turn away any production he can generate for us.

There needs to be a separation of club and country. Once you start mixing the two, you hinder your own development and progress.

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 11:14 AM
I think the issue here is that while TFC does promote the ideal of helping the CMNT, there is no official tie and no direct obligation of TFC to do so. Their stated goal is to help develop soccer in Canada, which in itself implies helping the CMNT, but their goal in helping "develop" soccer is simply to entrench their own product. There is no altruistic goal on the part of TFC. This is purely a protective measure to make sure their own product survives and thrives.

At the end of the day, TFC should do what is in it's own best interest. When it serves them, they will use "soccer in Canada" to their advantage. But when it doesn't suit them, believe me they won't pay much attention to the CMNT or the CSA.

The same goes with players. I personally find what JDG did distasteful but it was his choice and I am not going to get all worked up about it. We have nationals from other countries on TFC (or did at least, I don't think we have a single national except for Canadians anymore LOL!) and these players would technically be our "enemies" on the pitch during international competitions. However, while on TFC, they are "our" players. I would feel the same about JDG2 if he even finds his way to TFC. To me...he is no longer Canadian. So if he can come here and help us win an MLS Cup...so be it. He won't be my favourite player, but I certainly won't turn away any production he can generate for us.

There needs to be a separation of club and country. Once you start mixing the two, you hinder your own development and progress.

Making all sorts of sense Roogs
:flare:

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2011, 11:17 AM
Hmmm... "If he could play for any team"... and what stops him from playing for TFC exactly?

He didn't say when... or for how much $$ did he?
We may see him in a number of years after he has finished at higher tiers of football than MLS has on offer.

Pachuco
01-11-2011, 11:21 AM
Pachuco, I understand your point of view, but wouldn't you agree that because TFC have tied its identity and purpose to the CMNT and the developement of Canadian players that the issue is more complicated? From an idological perspective, how can they say the purpose of the club is to develope Canadian talent - to the point where they make academy players promise to play for Canada - and then bring in a star player who's turned his back on Canada?

I just can't sympathize with your argument for the following reasons:

1. I've already stated that I feel it's unfair to say JDG2 turned his back on Canada. He would be turning his back on the Dutch if he didn't choose them.

2. I've never heard of TFC's Academy making players sign a contract or make a promise that they'll play for Canada. But if that's true, I think it's terrible that TFC is making them do that. Good luck attracting say a good 17 year old from another country if you make that stipulation.

3. JDG2 didn't have TFC's Academy when he was 12. He had nothing but the local Scarborough park where he had to duck gunshots to play a friendly game :D.

4. I don't believe TFC's purpose is to grow Canadian talent. TFC's purpose is to win MLS cups and make money. I think you severly over exaggerate the connection with the CMNT. Roogsy said it best below, TFC's priority is to grow Canadian talent for their own purpose.

a_billi
01-11-2011, 11:24 AM
Exactly. I find it hilarious that there are no complaints about Radzinski, De Jong, Jakovic, Pacheco, Klukowski. Canada wasn't their home country was it? Didn't see too many complaints when they decided to rep us instead. JDG2 went to Holland when he was what, 12? 14? What does he owe Canada exactly?

Radzinki played with the North York Rockets of the Canadan Soccer Leauge, and played with the St. Catherine Wolves of the NASL. His major development was in Canada and he got noticed in CANADA.

Jackovic: Born to an ethnic Serb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) family in Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Croatia) prior to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFR_Yugoslavia), Jakovic was brought by his parents to Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) at the age of six following the outbreak of the ethnic warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence) in Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Croatia_%281990-1991%29) in 1991. They settled in Etobicoke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etobicoke), part of metropolitan Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Toronto).

Jakovic took up association football in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada). He was a four-year letterwinner at Scarlett Heights Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Heights_Entrepreneurial_Academy), and was named team MVP as a junior and senior, captaining both indoor and outdoor teams. He played in the Canadian national youth program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men%27s_national_youth_soccer_teams), and also for two-time Ontario Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Cup) winner Woodbridge Strikers (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Woodbridge_Strikers&action=edit&redlink=1) under Bob Graham.

That is straight from the Jakovics wikipedia. He was taught the game here buddy. And Klukowski was part of the youth teams in Canada and i Believed he moved here at the age of seven or something. And Pacheco was never going to the make the Portaguese team and has even said he wants to send his kids here to go to school, and plus every country poaches players. You fail to realize just because someone wasnt born in Canada doesnt mean they shouldnt play for the national team.

J .
01-11-2011, 11:42 AM
I think its important supporters are merciless in their support for Canada. For those who support TFC improving soccer in this country will improve the club. Bringing in outside talent raises the bar temporarily, but limits opportunity for domestic players. Improving chances and awareness for domestic playerswill limit the chance a player like JDG2 will split to a foreign land to develop.

When a player like JDG2 leaves, chooses his adopted country to play for and then wants to return to the land he grew up in, thats his choice. As supporters we should of course continue with 'sack the csa' campaigns but also put pressure on the players to know its not ok to turn your back on Canada and that Canadian soccer is important.

If as fans we do not make it clear that Canadian soccer has a place in our hearts and subsequently the world, we can never expect it to grow to its potential and that will affect the young athletes, the sports they choose and long term the prospects that can play for TFC.

I waited over 20 years for a professional team for me to root for in Canada. We have it and I want it to develop Canadian players, guys who will represent this nation. If that means missing a playoff date but leads to improved player development and a national soccer identity - sold. Id gladly sacrifice that as long term it improves the quality of the game for Canada, improves the chances kids will look at playing for TFC and Canada as a real footballing career dream.

We should look to become a land where the top clubs scour for Canadian players similar to how clubs look at Argentina and Brazil. Those clubs develop local domestic players. If we want to look at the best nations and the best players, we should look to the nations where many here clamour for more scouting, its those clubs which develop their local talent that have it right.

Lets get it right too.

CretanBull
01-11-2011, 11:43 AM
I just can't sympathize with your argument for the following reasons:

1. I've already stated that I feel it's unfair to say JDG2 turned his back on Canada. He would be turning his back on the Dutch if he didn't choose them.

2. I've never heard of TFC's Academy making players sign a contract or make a promise that they'll play for Canada. But if that's true, I think it's terrible that TFC is making them do that. Good luck attracting say a good 17 year old from another country if you make that stipulation.

3. JDG2 didn't have TFC's Academy when he was 12. He had nothing but the local Scarborough park where he had to duck gunshots to play a friendly game :D.

4. I don't believe TFC's purpose is to grow Canadian talent. TFC's purpose is to win MLS cups and make money. I think you severly over exaggerate the connection with the CMNT. Roogsy said it best below, TFC's priority is to grow Canadian talent for their own purpose.

1. A debateable point. The Dutch can make a claim to his developement as a player, but he's still a Canadian with greater debts here - we paid for his public education, provided him with healthcare etc. I'm not sure if a Canadian who goes to school at Harvard feels like they're in debt to America (even if they're there on a full ride scholarship). A sticking point for me is that he still self-identifies as being Canadian and not Dutch.

2. It applies to Canadian eligible academy players, not all academy players.

3. I understand that, I don't blame players - even now with the TFC (and other) academies in place - with going elsewhere to further their careers. And if they go somewhere else, become a part of that country and identify with that country and want to represent them then all the power to them. I can't help but resent someone who wants to be identified as a Canadian, but won't represent us...he's not motivated by obligation or national pride - he's motivated by career opportunity. That's his choice to make, but I don't have to support it.

4. I'm not offering an opinion or over-stating anything - I'm quoting TFC's mission statement. In the same way that the MLS was set up to develope players for the USMNT, TFC set out to do the same for the CMNT. They wear red and white to emphasize their Canadian connection, they embed the maple-leaf on their jersey, they put our flag on their sleeve, they're stated goal is to become "Canada's team" and a destination for Canadian players. Again, that's not my opinion - it's what they stated themselves time and time again - check out the TFC website, its plainly states as much.

Macksam
01-11-2011, 03:06 PM
lmao.. *pats macksam on head* go bark up another tree... seriously, move along.

LMFAO.. got my laugh of the day with that
I'm not barking up any tree. I just want to know why you are confused about why others would have a problem with it. Why are you confused why others would have a problem with it?



2. I've never heard of TFC's Academy making players sign a contract or make a promise that they'll play for Canada. But if that's true, I think it's terrible that TFC is making them do that. Good luck attracting say a good 17 year old from another country if you make that stipulation.

We don't need to attract a 17 year old from another country. There is more than enough talent in our own backyard that can be molded into MLS players. It may not happen overnight, but it's still there.


2. It applies to Canadian eligible academy players, not all academy players.

This is logical. No one should have a problem with this.

J .
01-11-2011, 03:24 PM
I find it funny people bitch about the lack of Canadian talent then want our academy to develop players from another country

Wull
01-11-2011, 03:25 PM
We don't need to attract a 17 year old from another country. There is more than enough talent in our own backyard that can be molded into MLS players. It may not happen overnight, but it's still there.


Oh come on! Even the best footballing nations and academy set ups bring in youngsters from out of the region/country

Ossington Mental Youth
01-11-2011, 03:44 PM
Oh come on! Even the best footballing nations and academy set ups bring in youngsters from out of the region/country

yeah, seriously.
Macksam, youre telling me youd turn down Messi if we had the option to sign him at TFC because hes an argie?

BeerBaron95
01-11-2011, 03:48 PM
yeah, seriously.
Macksam, youre telling me youd turn down Messi if we had the option to sign him at TFC because hes an argie?

I wouldnt :rolleyes:

lol

Ossington Mental Youth
01-11-2011, 03:55 PM
I wouldnt :rolleyes:

lol

HAHA yeah god forbid

J .
01-11-2011, 05:38 PM
Oh come on! Even the best footballing nations and academy set ups bring in youngsters from out of the region/country

Many are already established footballing teams and clubs. We're behind 100 years for some teams.

Macksam
01-11-2011, 09:28 PM
yeah, seriously.
Macksam, youre telling me youd turn down Messi if we had the option to sign him at TFC because hes an argie?
No, just saying it's not necessary. Anyhow, like I've pointed out in other threads, I have no problem with foreigners in the academy. I would just have a problem with academy kids picking a different national team if they are born and raised here.

As for JDG 2, I wouldn't have a problem if he played for TFC. He honed a lot of his skills in the Netherlands and spent nearly half his life there, and if he chooses them, while it would be dissapointing, it is what it is.

Even though I'm the most vocal hater and basher of Owen Whoregreaves, I wouldn't mind us signing him as well. If he played well for TFC and grew the sport here, I would consider that making amends for his earlier mistake.

Fushida
01-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Radzinki played with the North York Rockets of the Canadan Soccer Leauge, and played with the St. Catherine Wolves of the NASL. His major development was in Canada and he got noticed in CANADA.

Jackovic: Born to an ethnic Serb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) family in Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Croatia) prior to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFR_Yugoslavia), Jakovic was brought by his parents to Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) at the age of six following the outbreak of the ethnic warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence) in Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Croatia_%281990-1991%29) in 1991. They settled in Etobicoke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etobicoke), part of metropolitan Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Toronto).

Jakovic took up association football in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada). He was a four-year letterwinner at Scarlett Heights Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Heights_Entrepreneurial_Academy), and was named team MVP as a junior and senior, captaining both indoor and outdoor teams. He played in the Canadian national youth program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men%27s_national_youth_soccer_teams), and also for two-time Ontario Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Cup) winner Woodbridge Strikers (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Woodbridge_Strikers&action=edit&redlink=1) under Bob Graham.

That is straight from the Jakovics wikipedia. He was taught the game here buddy. And Klukowski was part of the youth teams in Canada and i Believed he moved here at the age of seven or something. And Pacheco was never going to the make the Portaguese team and has even said he wants to send his kids here to go to school, and plus every country poaches players. You fail to realize just because someone wasnt born in Canada doesnt mean they shouldnt play for the national team.

You serious? I have no idea how you reached that conclusion with my post.

JDG2 was taught the game in Europe when he went to OM at 10 and Feyenoord at 12. He's spent more than half his life out of Canada, never played for the Canadian national program. Not too different from the guys I mentioned, hence he shouldn't be obliged to play for the Canadian national team. What are YOU arguing exactly?

jabbronies
06-12-2014, 09:51 AM
Armen Bedakian @ArmenBedakian (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian) · 24m (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian/status/477093208376086528)


Jonathan De Guzman just said in an interview with Dutch TV he plans on finishing his career with Toronto FC. #TFC (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TFC?src=hash) #MLS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLS?src=hash)

RoyalRed
06-12-2014, 09:58 AM
Armen Bedakian @ArmenBedakian (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian) · 24m (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian/status/477093208376086528)


Jonathan De Guzman just said in an interview with Dutch TV he plans on finishing his career with Toronto FC. #TFC (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TFC?src=hash) #MLS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLS?src=hash)


That's some big news.. Would be awesome.

Yohan
06-12-2014, 10:02 AM
Yawn. Wanna collect a nice retirement cheque, does he

wzhxvy
06-12-2014, 10:05 AM
Yeah exactly...no thanks...this is not the place to "cash in" once you are done.

Chevy
06-12-2014, 10:08 AM
+1. Already been burned when I bought tickets to the first DeGuzman Freeloader Tour.

mowe
06-12-2014, 10:23 AM
If he's 28, 29 I'd take him in a heartbeat. 32+, no thanks.

Pookie
06-12-2014, 10:25 AM
^ assuming TFC want players that are finishing their careers…. oh wait

JuliquE
06-12-2014, 10:29 AM
^ assuming TFC want players that are finishing their careers…. oh wait
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/movielines04.png

gmacpheetfc
06-12-2014, 10:52 AM
give him another world cup or euro and he'll come around that time (28-30).

razor787
06-12-2014, 03:50 PM
In my eyes, he burn that bridge when he chose the Oranjes over the CMNT.

Oldtimer
06-12-2014, 03:58 PM
Why would we want a Dutch second-rate player? I'd prefer either a Canadian or a first-rate international.

Richard
06-12-2014, 04:11 PM
Why would we want a Dutch second-rate player? I'd prefer either a Canadian or a first-rate international.

You talking about the same player?

Lets be real, he is not a second rate player. Do I want him? Nope. But lets not give him an unfair evaluation.

Kaz
06-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Why would we want a Dutch second-rate player? I'd prefer either a Canadian or a first-rate international.

hear hear.



I look at it this way Swansea won't buy him. Villa won't recall him..

he wants too much money.. and isn't worth it. More then that is he turned his back on Canada. He doesn't deserve to wear the Maple leaf on his kit.. ever.

prizby
06-12-2014, 06:07 PM
Armen Bedakian @ArmenBedakian (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian) · 24m (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian/status/477093208376086528)


Jonathan De Guzman just said in an interview with Dutch TV he plans on finishing his career with Toronto FC. #TFC (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TFC?src=hash) #MLS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLS?src=hash)


TFC brass will have a hard time with this one

werewolf
06-12-2014, 06:18 PM
I want a toilet made out of solid gold.

Eat bird, Judas.

OgtheDim
06-12-2014, 07:06 PM
Meh...this is a variation on the theme was have seen of TFC being mentionned in every possible move to MLS.

If he fits the bill, and can do the job at the time, sure. But given everything we have seen of him, I don't think he will fit that price he wants or be able to do the job we will need.

ensco
06-12-2014, 07:22 PM
Look at what Michael Bradley is making. It could have been JDG2. There's not that much to choose between them, in reality. JDG2 is a very good player.

If he had declared for Canada, and gotten us into WC2014, maybe he would have signed here for tens of millions.

Big if I know, but we weren't that far off, if we'd beaten Honduras in a game we dominated here but tied 0-0 the 8-1 game wouldn't have mattered, we'd have been in the hex already.

He must wonder what might have been - he is an itinerant who will now play for 5 clubs in 5 years, and make maybe a quarter of what Bradley makes. No wonder he is talking about this.

PizzaEatingYeti
06-13-2014, 12:59 AM
Hey JDG2!

Go fuck yourself if you wanna come to TFC and you'll be already over 31 by then.
Otherwise, if in the moment of signing the contract you'll stil have at least 8 months until you go over 31, you are very welcome!

Shakes McQueen
06-13-2014, 02:27 AM
If he's still useful by then, and will play at a discount (meaning maybe not even a DP contract by then), then I'd consider him, the same as I'd consider any other player.

If he thinks he's going to come here in his mid-30s for one last, big payday, and is assuming TFC will be happy to give it to him? Fuck you, budday.

razor787
06-13-2014, 03:12 AM
If he's still useful by then, and will play at a discount (meaning maybe not even a DP contract by then), then I'd consider him, the same as I'd consider any other player.

If he thinks he's going to come here in his mid-30s for one last, big payday, and is assuming TFC will be happy to give it to him? Fuck you, budday.

He's not my budday, pal.

Oldtimer
06-13-2014, 05:22 AM
You talking about the same player?

Lets be real, he is not a second rate player. Do I want him? Nope. But lets not give him an unfair evaluation.

By the time he wants to retire here he'll be second rate.

JDG2 is all about JDG2. He's the opposite in character of the type of player that we are trying to get and build our team around, someone like Michael Bradley.

His slight of Canada will not easily be forgotten. He paved the way for a whole generation of players to declare for other nations, which is the biggest reason why Canada is not playing in the World Cup.

scooter
06-13-2014, 06:51 AM
Yawn. Wanna collect a nice retirement cheque, does he

mista already got the cheque

Fort York Redcoat
06-13-2014, 07:10 AM
+1. Already been burned when I bought tickets to the first DeGuzman Freeloader Tour.

Totally the same thing...

http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2014/100734-nope3.gif

Shakes McQueen
06-13-2014, 02:45 PM
He's not my budday, pal.

I'm not your pal, friend.

zuQK6t2Esng

DigzTFC!
06-13-2014, 07:05 PM
Question: Would Jonathan de Guzman increase or decrease TFC viewership, game-day revenue, merchandising revenue etc.

My honest opinion is no. It would actually negatively impact how Canadian soccer fans view the club and he is not a big enough name to counter that push back. TFC would not gain anything by adding him to the roster and could find a player of equivalent talent without the luggage.

prizby
06-13-2014, 07:54 PM
Remember when JDG2 toed us along for years when he wanted to play for Canada...same thing going on here

Ajax TFC
06-13-2014, 08:42 PM
1) Jono chooses to play for Holland. Says he feels Dutch - understandable considering he received his football education there
2) After years of not getting a call-up, Jono wants to play for Canada, but he has to get his passport back first - Yay!
3) Jono says he's still available for selection if BvM wants to call him up - Opinion of him taking a turn downwards, but can still accept the fact that it might not be so easy to get his Canadian passport back without giving up his Dutch (EU) one
4) Jono says he'll play for Canada if they make it to the hex - Yeah fuck you. If you rely on the other players to do the heavy lifting to get the team to a place where it's good enough for you to play for than YOU ARE NOT DP MATERIAL! DP's need to be players who can raise the game of the team and lead them to victory. Jono wasn't willing to do that for his own country, why should we pay him to do it for TFC?

If he wants to finish his career with his hometown team, than he can finish his career at Feyenoord, where he developed and started his career. My guess though is that it's a matter of money. Feyenoord can't give him a big pay check, but TFC can.

Cashcleaner
06-13-2014, 09:10 PM
+1. Already been burned when I bought tickets to the first DeGuzman Freeloader Tour.

Pretty much the first thing that came to my mind as well.


If he's still useful by then, and will play at a discount (meaning maybe not even a DP contract by then), then I'd consider him, the same as I'd consider any other player.

If he thinks he's going to come here in his mid-30s for one last, big payday, and is assuming TFC will be happy to give it to him? Fuck you, budday.

I have a feeling that's entirely his intention. I don't know whether or not he sees it that way, but it's a bit of a back-handed compliment to say; "Yeah, when I'm all done playing in Europe with the top-flight clubs here I guess I'll finish up with TFC."

Maybe it's just the delivery, but it rubs me the wrong way.


Remember when JDG2 toed us along for years when he wanted to play for Canada...same thing going on here

To be fair, at least he didn't make his announcement the same week that Bradley and Defoe were introduced.

Gazza
06-13-2014, 09:19 PM
"i'd love to have an organization grossly overpay for me due to unwarranted nostalgia! That's a great retirement plan!"

Ajax TFC
06-13-2014, 10:04 PM
If we need a big player who was born in Canada, then go after Will Johnson. At least he wouldn't cost DP kind of money, and he actually has class. Whether he would leave Portland is another story, but I'd be more willing to try for him than to give Judas a payday

razor787
06-13-2014, 10:16 PM
I don't think there is any way the front office will bring him in, but the thought itself pisses me off...

tfcleeds
06-13-2014, 10:18 PM
Dear JDG2:

Please kindly fuck yourself.

Goodbye.

Shakes McQueen
06-13-2014, 11:04 PM
Maybe it's just the delivery, but it rubs me the wrong way.

At least his brother came when he was still theoretically in his "prime" (even if it backfired horribly). But Canadian Judas has another thing coming, if he thinks he'll be welcomed with a parade and a blank cheque in his 30s.

Milanista
06-13-2014, 11:05 PM
lol he was part of the team that spanked Spain…what a horrible decision he made not playing for canada haaa

werewolf
06-13-2014, 11:50 PM
Not sure anyone is saying he made a horrible decision, just that he is a sell-out piece of trash and he is not welcome here.

Shakes McQueen
06-14-2014, 12:53 AM
lol he was part of the team that spanked Spain…what a horrible decision he made not playing for canada haaa

Congrats to him - don't bother coming back to Canada, or come visit as the tourist you are. I believe national teams should be about more than going wherever you think you've got the "best shot" at the World Cup. Club play is about chasing trophies.

And making that decision, then saying you'd like to end your career with Toronto FC? Eat shit. The Netherlands is your nation - end your career there.

Richard
06-14-2014, 10:29 AM
By the time he wants to retire here he'll be second rate.

JDG2 is all about JDG2. He's the opposite in character of the type of player that we are trying to get and build our team around, someone like Michael Bradley.

His slight of Canada will not easily be forgotten. He paved the way for a whole generation of players to declare for other nations, which is the biggest reason why Canada is not playing in the World Cup.

I absolutely agree that I wouldn't want him here because of attitude, but I wouldn't say he paved the way for others to declare elsewhere, that's mostly on the CSA and their continued incompetence over the years. For me It wasn't about the fact he declared for Netherlands, I'm sure he does feel more Dutch than Canadian, but it was the declaration " if Canada did good I would choose them " which is the wrong attitude, he should have choose one side, and It wouldn't bother me if he choose Netherlands if it was an honest decision.

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 11:09 AM
I blame the CSA not JDG2.

I'd buy his jersey if he came here.

werewolf
06-14-2014, 11:45 AM
I blame the CSA not JDG2.


For not paying him the kickback money he was demanding?

DigzTFC!
06-14-2014, 11:56 AM
I blame the CSA not JDG2.

Can you expand? I hear this a lot. What exactly did the CSA do in this instance?

They invited him probably a dozen times. They had his brother lobby to get him. Stephen Hart went to see him in Spain. They tried to figure out if he could reclaim his passport without losing his dutch one so he could remain an EU citizen.

Are you referring to Canada's low ranking? While they have done a terrible administrative and governance job in the past, I find it hard for a country with no league to be judged against the player production of other countries. Most countries have inept governing bodies but they have the volume and 4-5 domestic leagues to source from which covers it up.

He made a career choice. As a Canadian fan, I don't respect it. My family has 200 years on this rock and anyone who claims being Canadian doesn't mean anything and abuses it I take personally.

TFC07
06-14-2014, 12:45 PM
Can you expand? I hear this a lot. What exactly did the CSA do in this instance?

They invited him probably a dozen times. They had his brother lobby to get him. Stephen Hart went to see him in Spain. They tried to figure out if he could reclaim his passport without losing his dutch one so he could remain an EU citizen.

Are you referring to Canada's low ranking? While they have done a terrible administrative and governance job in the past, I find it hard for a country with no league to be judged against the player production of other countries. Most countries have inept governing bodies but they have the volume and 4-5 domestic leagues to source from which covers it up.

He made a career choice. As a Canadian fan, I don't respect it. My family has 200 years on this rock and anyone who claims being Canadian doesn't mean anything and abuses it I take personally.

Well said.

Lack of pro clubs is hurting Canada big time! We either need our own domestic league or have every city in Canada have a team playing in MLS or NASL. Right now, we don't have much depth in our pool because there isn't many opportunities for Canadians to play professionally. I think with more professional soccer presence in Canada will put more pressure on CSA and amateur clubs to step up their game or risk losing their best young players to professional clubs without making money out of it.

Globetrotter
06-14-2014, 02:09 PM
My understanding is he was born here, moved to Netherlands at 12 - learned and developed his game there - and chose to play for the country that supported him and the sport he was playing.

The guy has lived in the Netherlands (and playing there) longer than he lived (and wasn't playing) in Canada.


The comments on here are ridiculous. Jesus... It's like the guy killed your only child. Although, maybe hating someone that you don't even know is your baby.

All the guy is doing is representing the country that taught him a sport and raised/developed him with it. It would be more disrespectful for him to NOT play for the Dutch.

Shakes McQueen
06-14-2014, 03:43 PM
My understanding is he was born here, moved to Netherlands at 12 - learned and developed his game there - and chose to play for the country that supported him and the sport he was playing.

The guy has lived in the Netherlands (and playing there) longer than he lived (and wasn't playing) in Canada.


The comments on here are ridiculous. Jesus... It's like the guy killed your only child. Although, maybe hating someone that you don't even know is your baby.

All the guy is doing is representing the country that taught him a sport and raised/developed him with it. It would be more disrespectful for him to NOT play for the Dutch.

Disrespectful? National teams are about playing for your home country, wherever that happens to be. He doesn't consider Canada his home country, despite continuing to be the home of the rest of his family, and his brother? Fine - but then you're every bit the Judas Canadians say you are, and you can keep nonsense about "wanting to finish my career with TFC" to yourself.

Why say you want to finish your career here, if it's clear you don't consider Canada your home? His brother went to Europe two years before him, yet clearly Julian didn't forget where his home country was.

Prodigious young Canadian players are almost always going to get plucked up by European academies at a young age - that doesn't make Canada any less their home country.

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Can you expand? I hear this a lot. What exactly did the CSA do in this instance?

They invited him probably a dozen times. They had his brother lobby to get him. Stephen Hart went to see him in Spain. They tried to figure out if he could reclaim his passport without losing his dutch one so he could remain an EU citizen.

Are you referring to Canada's low ranking? While they have done a terrible administrative and governance job in the past, I find it hard for a country with no league to be judged against the player production of other countries. Most countries have inept governing bodies but they have the volume and 4-5 domestic leagues to source from which covers it up.

He made a career choice. As a Canadian fan, I don't respect it. My family has 200 years on this rock and anyone who claims being Canadian doesn't mean anything and abuses it I take personally.

I love Canada more than anything.
I was sad when JDG2 chose Holland. There was that glimmer of hope when JDG said his brother was trying to get the paperwork done, but then we went into Honduras and lost 8-0.

My blame on the CSA isn't specific to the JDG2 case... In this certain situation there isn't really much they could do differently.

My blame on the CSA is based on how bush league they are, and thus I put my blame on them for the long list of fantastic players that have suited up for other countries. Up until TFC and the rest of the MLS teams began existing Canadian players had limited options if they wanted to pursue a career in soccer. The massive majority had to leave the country completely in order to have any hope of playing (it was either that or go get a real job).

Holland developed JDG2. I wish he played for Canada, but I don't hate him for his decision. I still follow his career and count him as one of my favourite players.

If he were to join TFC down the road he would be one of the most skilled players to ever wear the jersey. Even if he comes over 30.

bdiddy
06-14-2014, 04:59 PM
If we really think one player (Jonathan DeGuzman) could have made a big difference in us qualifying for the World Cup, we should think quite differently. Canada is still a long way away from even being a threat to qualify for a World Cup. I find it funny people ripping on someone who was trained and built up in Holland, not in Canada.

The problem is that in his time, we (Canada) did not have the resources to challenge and build him up. Even now, do we have the resources to really offer a player of his ability to train at a high level?

Diddy,

prizby
06-14-2014, 05:07 PM
Spain developed Giovani dos Santos
Brazil developed Diego Costa
France developed Didier Drogba
Spain developed Antoine Griezmann
USA developed Andy Najar
Switzerland developed Ivan Rakitic
Spain developed Lionel Messi

funny how they were all able to play for country outside of development without the extra drama

DigzTFC!
06-14-2014, 05:11 PM
If we really think one player (Jonathan DeGuzman) could have made a big difference in us qualifying for the World Cup, we should think quite differently. Canada is still a long way away from even being a threat to qualify for a World Cup. I find it funny people ripping on someone who was trained and built up in Holland, not in Canada.

The problem is that in his time, we (Canada) did not have the resources to challenge and build him up. Even now, do we have the resources to really offer a player of his ability to train at a high level?

Diddy,

I would stay away from the voyageur forum. You've basically written off Canada in both future and past tense. Hope your team does well in the World Cup.

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 05:25 PM
Spain developed Giovani dos Santos
Brazil developed Diego Costa
France developed Didier Drogba
Spain developed Antoine Griezmann
USA developed Andy Najar
Switzerland developed Ivan Rakitic
Spain developed Lionel Messi

funny how they were all able to play for country outside of development without the extra drama

Nvm, mis-read.

Costa chose Spain.. right. But there was certainly drama regarding that move. All thru the Spain- Dutch match they were chanting "Diego Faggot"

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 05:27 PM
On a positive note:

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/477524151243395073



User Actions
Following

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2862106323/f9982951d6d4a6b94c91afe05c972bab_bigger.jpegKurtis LarsonVerified account‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)

@Howie_OT (https://twitter.com/Howie_OT) I've heard a decision from Hoilett could come soon, and it might be a positive one.

Shakes McQueen
06-14-2014, 05:53 PM
I love Canada more than anything.
I was sad when JDG2 chose Holland. There was that glimmer of hope when JDG said his brother was trying to get the paperwork done, but then we went into Honduras and lost 8-0.

My blame on the CSA isn't specific to the JDG2 case... In this certain situation there isn't really much they could do differently.

My blame on the CSA is based on how bush league they are, and thus I put my blame on them for the long list of fantastic players that have suited up for other countries. Up until TFC and the rest of the MLS teams began existing Canadian players had limited options if they wanted to pursue a career in soccer. The massive majority had to leave the country completely in order to have any hope of playing (it was either that or go get a real job).

Holland developed JDG2. I wish he played for Canada, but I don't hate him for his decision. I still follow his career and count him as one of my favourite players.

If he were to join TFC down the road he would be one of the most skilled players to ever wear the jersey. Even if he comes over 30.

The CSA will continue to be small-time so long as our country has no success on the international stage. Our country will continue to have no success on the international stage, so long as our most naturally gifted players continue to opt to play for other countries. And as was already pointed out earlier - many national football associations are jokes, except they can wallpaper over that fact by simply having a wealth of talent to choose from.

And "Holland" didn't develop JDG2 - Feyenoord did. Being developed by a club's youth academy in no way puts you in personal "debt" to the country that club happens to reside in.

As far as the game of soccer is concerned, JDG2 is a traitor to this country. The idea that the "wants to finish his career with TFC", is laughable if true. Would probably expect the hero's welcome and everything.

TFC07
06-14-2014, 06:20 PM
Spain developed Giovani dos Santos
Brazil developed Diego Costa
France developed Didier Drogba
Spain developed Antoine Griezmann
USA developed Andy Najar
Switzerland developed Ivan Rakitic
Spain developed Lionel Messi

funny how they were all able to play for country outside of development without the extra drama

Better example for USA should be Giuseppe Rossi which there was plenty of drama over. But unlike nations you listed, Canada isn't strong soccer nation. So losing our best players hurts us even more than those countries.

Just imagine if our best players decided to play for Canada instead somewhere else? We will probably be busy talking about how well Canada do in the world cup instead of having this discussion.

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 06:20 PM
The CSA will continue to be small-time so long as our country has no success on the international stage. Our country will continue to have no success on the international stage, so long as our most naturally gifted players continue to opt to play for other countries. And as was already pointed out earlier - many national football associations are jokes, except they can wallpaper over that fact by simply having a wealth of talent to choose from.

And "Holland" didn't develop JDG2 - Feyenoord did. Being developed by a club's youth academy in no way puts you in personal "debt" to the country that club happens to reside in.

As far as the game of soccer is concerned, JDG2 is a traitor to this country. The idea that the "wants to finish his career with TFC", is laughable if true. Would probably expect the hero's welcome and everything.


The CSA has existed since 1912. Is a century really not enough time to build any kind of legitimate infrastructure in a first world country? There are more registered soccer players at the youth level in this country than there are hockey players. I don't really care about whether or not other counties soccer associations are well run or not. We have everything we need to be at the very least, a consistent threat to emerge from CONCACAF.

We have no excuse for how shit we have been, and blaming it on a handful of talented players who didn't jump at the chance to jump into a dark abyss of football hell. The lack of a proper pro league hurts, but that doesn't mean we have to have a shit development system.


Does Feyenoord not exist within the Dutch football philosophy? The Dutch system IS responsible for De Guzman's growth. He spent is formative years living there and being a part of their culture (both on the field growth and off the field growth... as a human). It's not about debt.

If I moved to Canada in my youth and decided that I love my new home and the opportunity it presented for me, I believe i'd have the right to throw a maple leaf on my chest.

TFC07
06-14-2014, 06:21 PM
On a positive note:

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/477524151243395073



User Actions
Following

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2862106323/f9982951d6d4a6b94c91afe05c972bab_bigger.jpegKurtis LarsonVerified account‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)

@Howie_OT (https://twitter.com/Howie_OT) I've heard a decision from Hoilett could come soon, and it might be a positive one.

I guess England has no interest in Hoilett so he's left with either playing for Canada or Jamaica. I wonder if he will play a role in upcoming friendly game in Toronto in September when Canada faces Jamaica.

bdiddy
06-14-2014, 06:32 PM
The CSA has existed since 1912. Is a century really not enough time to build any kind of legitimate infrastructure in a first world country? There are more registered soccer players at the youth level in this country than there are hockey players. I don't really care about whether or not other counties soccer associations are well run or not. We have everything we need to be at the very least, a consistent threat to emerge from CONCACAF.

We have no excuse for how shit we have been, and blaming it on a handful of talented players who didn't jump at the chance to jump into a dark abyss of football hell. The lack of a proper pro league hurts, but that doesn't mean we have to have a shit development system.


Does Feyenoord not exist within the Dutch football philosophy? The Dutch system IS responsible for De Guzman's growth. He spent is formative years living there and being a part of their culture (both on the field growth and off the field growth... as a human). It's not about debt.

If I moved to Canada in my youth and decided that I love my new home and the opportunity it presented for me, I believe i'd have the right to throw a maple leaf on my chest.

Well said.

Im disappointed that JDG2 isn't playing for Canada, and I hope other talent choose Canada over other countries.

But until recently - we haven't had many places for our youth to grow and play... and even develop in a system.

DigzTFC!
06-14-2014, 06:54 PM
The lack of a proper pro league hurts, but that doesn't mean we have to have a shit development system.

Do you have any examples where a country has made the world cup without a domestic league? I agree partly in your sentiment but this is pretty dismissive of the largest issue in Canada. It's not the lack of clubs but the lack of professional standard clubs.

prizby
06-14-2014, 07:07 PM
Do you have any examples where a country has made the world cup without a domestic league? I agree partly in your sentiment but this is pretty dismissive of the largest issue in Canada. It's not the lack of clubs but the lack of professional standard clubs.

New Zealand doesn't have a pro league

Jpexxx
06-14-2014, 07:08 PM
Do you have any examples where a country has made the world cup without a domestic league? I agree partly in your sentiment but this is pretty dismissive of the largest issue in Canada. It's not the lack of clubs but the lack of professional standard clubs.

New Zealand last World Cup.

DigzTFC!
06-14-2014, 07:13 PM
New Zealand last World Cup.

Well played. Name another one. Just as an exercise of curiosity since you've pointed to an example of a world power without a domestic league hahaha

Shakes McQueen
06-14-2014, 07:38 PM
We have no excuse for how shit we have been, and blaming it on a handful of talented players who didn't jump at the chance to jump into a dark abyss of football hell. The lack of a proper pro league hurts, but that doesn't mean we have to have a shit development system.

How is expecting a Canadian to suit up for the CMNT equivalent to asking them to "jump into a dark abyss of football hell"? Is coming back occasionally to play in the Gold Cup, or WC qualifiers really that horrible?

JDG2 was scooped up by a professional team at a young age, and developed, after no doubt being noticed playing football as a kid in Mississauga - much like Leo Messi was. If those years "being a part of their culture" makes JDG2 identify primarily as a Dutch person, then so be it - don't talk about nonsense like "wanting to finish your career at TFC", as though you identify as a Canadian (despite, y'know, the rest of your family being Canadian).

This has nothing to do with what he has the "right" to do, since clearly FIFA gives him the right to play for the Netherlands. This is about how Canadians have the "right" to feel about it.

What I can't stand, is when these people identify with Canada WHEN IT SUITS THEM, but when it comes to offering the fruits of their talents in their prime, go off to chase glory with the Netherlands, or England, etc. When it comes to collecting one last fat paycheck? "Well gee willikers, I'd love to come finish my career in the T Dot!"

Go retire with Feyenoord.

jazzy
06-14-2014, 10:04 PM
How is expecting a Canadian to suit up for the CMNT equivalent to asking them to "jump into a dark abyss of football hell"? Is coming back occasionally to play in the Gold Cup, or WC qualifiers really that horrible?

JDG2 was scooped up by a professional team at a young age, and developed, after no doubt being noticed playing football as a kid in Mississauga - much like Leo Messi was. If those years "being a part of their culture" makes JDG2 identify primarily as a Dutch person, then so be it - don't talk about nonsense like "wanting to finish your career at TFC", as though you identify as a Canadian (despite, y'know, the rest of your family being Canadian).

This has nothing to do with what he has the "right" to do, since clearly FIFA gives him the right to play for the Netherlands. This is about how Canadians have the "right" to feel about it.

What I can't stand, is when these people identify with Canada WHEN IT SUITS THEM, but when it comes to offering the fruits of their talents in their prime, go off to chase glory with the Netherlands, or England, etc. When it comes to collecting one last fat paycheck? "Well gee willikers, I'd love to come finish my career in the T Dot!"

Go retire with Feyenoord.

the real hurt is when Canada welcomes new immigrants a chance for a better life , health care , education , welfare in many cases for their parents who made their way here and gave their children a safe haven , as we all did in some form or other and the 'children' turn their backs on the gift that this free country bestows and is constantly taken for granted......It is not about soccer. It IS about payback and ethics .

jabbronies
06-14-2014, 10:38 PM
Don't blame JDG2 for choosing to play on a World Cup contending country. I would have zero respect for him if he did choose to play for this joke of a national team.

Blame the CSA for driving players away with their embarrassing existence.

The CSA serves no purpose in this country. They are an embarrassment to this great nation. They should be disbanded and a new governing body should be created. By whom? I have no idea. But as it stands right now this country will never be a serious contender on the world stage. Our children and our children's children have no hope in this sport unless they happen to make their way into the MLS system.

Oldtimer
06-15-2014, 07:53 AM
Well played. Name another one. Just as an exercise oif curiosity since you've pointed to an example of a world power without a domestic league hahaha

You asked for one nation, now don't up the standard. It only takes one example to prove the idea that a domestic
league is 100% necessary is a wrong one.

A handful of talented players declaring for Canada would have made enough of a difference to get Canada in.

RealG-TFC
06-15-2014, 08:55 AM
Disrespectful? National teams are about playing for your home country, wherever that happens to be. He doesn't consider Canada his home country, despite continuing to be the home of the rest of his family, and his brother? Fine - but then you're every bit the Judas Canadians say you are, and you can keep nonsense about "wanting to finish my career with TFC" to yourself.


In an age of dual citizenship, high levels of migration, and five hundred or so years of globalization, you and I both know its not as simple as that. This is ultimately a question of nationality and nationalism, which are very much modern concepts and have ALWAYS been problematic.

Why can one not have more then one home country? Why must we have one's personal sensations of belonging to a place be restricted to a few, sometimes arbitrary, political borders.

I know DeGuz probably didn't have this much of a philosophical debate in his head for who to play for but we must remember that the question of nationality is not as black and white as we sometimes say it is.

backbeat
06-15-2014, 09:24 AM
Actually from what I read he did not say that exactly.


he said he would like to end his career at either Feyenoord or possibly Toronto FC. I completely get the anger over him not playing for Canada but this was a club football question to him and his answer seems reasonable to me. remember when he was growing up there was no option to stay at home and develop to that degree. Most of the future De Guzman's will stay at home and play for Canada - saying that it still pissed me off that he and Hoilett held off playing for Canada.

Fort York Redcoat
06-15-2014, 09:28 AM
The question of nationality is as black and white as we want it to be.

This logic coming from player perspective is muddying water. I'm not a player. It's my supporter prerogative to be "hypocritical" and wanting the best for my country and the players to share in the pride I have for it.

Anyone remember the Hargreaves to Vancouver rumour? I'm hoping this has the same outcome and the powers that be get wind of the outrage.

Yohan
06-15-2014, 09:33 AM
In an age of dual citizenship, high levels of migration, and five hundred or so years of globalization, you and I both know its not as simple as that. This is ultimately a question of nationality and nationalism, which are very much modern concepts and have ALWAYS been problematic.

Why can one not have more then one home country? Why must we have one's personal sensations of belonging to a place be restricted to a few, sometimes arbitrary, political borders.

I know DeGuz probably didn't have this much of a philosophical debate in his head for who to play for but we must remember that the question of nationality is not as black and white as we sometimes say it is.

Because duties and responsibilities of one citizenship may not be compatible with another country's citizenship

Jpexxx
06-15-2014, 09:45 AM
It is the CSA's job and responsibility in cases where players have multiple countries they are eligible for to cap-trap them.

Look at Asmir Begovic. Played every level of youth for Team Canada. But at the top level he sat and waited for a call. All the CSA had to do was throw him in net once in a friendly. Instead Bosnia shows up and asks him "Hey, how would you like to start for us?"

Of course he said yes.


Every time a player suits up for another country, for me, it is purely a failure by the CSA to entice that player to come and a failure to do their job of capping them before they can get opportunities elsewhere.


In the case of De Guzman, he never played a single game for Canada at any level. It's not like he came to camp, wasted our resources and then hopped ship, which I find more disrespectful than a player who simply chose one over the other.



Edit: Spelling on Begovic's name.

InDa_110
06-15-2014, 09:57 AM
I think we should separate club and country on this one. If we can get him to tfc we should explore that option as best as possible. Are we offended he doesn't play for Canada, Yes! Should that be a deterrent in bringing him to tfc NO! To quote Hyman Roth in God Father II, "I let it go, because it had nothing to do with Business".

RealG-TFC
06-15-2014, 11:01 AM
Because duties and responsibilities of one citizenship may not be compatible with another country's citizenship

This is what 'm talking about. This over simplification of human self-identification is the problem. Countries (political entities) come and go. They are created, destroyed, unified and divided all the time. People's sensibilities and how they identify themselves is entirely different.

Masked Man
06-15-2014, 12:22 PM
Takes a lot of nerve to deny playing for a country & then want to 'finish his career' in the country he didn't want to play for. Sure I'll be a Canadian when I'm getting a nice check but when it comes to giving back, forget it.

As far as this club/country debate goes. Anyone who wants to see the game of soccer grow in this country, should want to see the Mens National Team make the world cup. NOTHING would help make the game grow more in popularity. TFC could win 5 MLS cups in a row & it will still be the largely be followed by a niche following. People like Hargreaves, JDG2, Begovic & Hoillet contribute to the rotten culture that has run rampant on the mens side(as a result hindering the popularity of the sport). I have no interest in seeing any of these guys ever suit up for TFC or any other Canadian team.

Ajax TFC
06-15-2014, 01:09 PM
I don't think people should have a problem with players who moved away from Canada at a young age and became the players they became in a different country, playing for that other country. Do we also want to say that players like Aleman should play for Costa Rica? Because otherwise it's a bit of a double standard to accept players like Aleman and Borjan, but hate on players like JDG2 for doing the same thing with a different country. And lets not say that he can't play for TFC because he's Dutch now, not Canadian. Defoe's English, not Canadian, Bradley's American, not Canadian, Gilberto's Brazilian, not Canadian, etc, etc. The fact that he has family here gives him more reason to want to play here than any other of those players.

HOWEVER! it is not that simple. The problem isn't that he chose for the country that he grew up as a player in. The problem is that he chose for Holland because they were a better team and would play in the world cup. You can't say that you chose to play for Holland because you feel Dutch after saying that you would play for Canada, but only if they can make it as far as a certain qualifying stage.

But from a CMNT perspective, I feel the CSA deserve blame for not doing everything they can to entice players like JDG2 and cap tie them. We need to call up players like this while they're still young, and make them feel good about representing Canada. Talk big and get them excited. I mean JDG2 wasn't even eligible for the Oranje until after he was 20! You have to think that if the CSA wasn't a mickey mouse organization, they would have noticed him long before he was eligible for Holland and done everything to cap tie him. But even after that, when he was talking about looking into playing for Canada, you would think that they would do everything in their power to make it easy for him to play for Canada and try to get him excited to play for them. Instead, I always got the impression that they went at it with a "we'll see what we can do, but we won't try too hard" kind of approach. That's not how you get good players to play for you. And unfortunately with the way migration is these days, nation teams have to do that.

Yohan
06-15-2014, 04:29 PM
This is what 'm talking about. This over simplification of human self-identification is the problem. Countries (political entities) come and go. They are created, destroyed, unified and divided all the time. People's sensibilities and how they identify themselves is entirely different.
The cynic in me says people only want 2nd citizenship just for the benefits mainly.

RealG-TFC
06-15-2014, 05:55 PM
The cynic in me says people only want 2nd citizenship just for the benefits mainly.

Any citizenship is entirely for the benefits. Once again, I am talking about identification not political designation.

Abou Sky
06-15-2014, 08:47 PM
It's so tough because my son plays at a reasonably high level.

We have family in Spain and Brazil, by 13-14, if he is actually at a really high level, and TFC academy isn't way ahead of where they are now, we could send him there.

If he came to me and said 'dad, should I play for Canada or Spain /Brazil?'

I can say right now that 'he should play for Canada' but really, it would probably be 'kiddo, go win the world cup'

shwade
06-15-2014, 09:52 PM
It's so tough because my son plays at a reasonably high level.

We have family in Spain and Brazil, by 13-14, if he is actually at a really high level, and TFC academy isn't way ahead of where they are now, we could send him there.

If he came to me and said 'dad, should I play for Canada or Spain /Brazil?'

I can say right now that 'he should play for Canada' but really, it would probably be 'kiddo, go win the world cup'

See now that would be ok if he asked you...should he sign with BArcelona or Toronto? Then kid, go win La Liga and Champions League. The World Cup is for representing your country not making a strategic choice to win the thing. That's what your club career is for.

Brooker
06-15-2014, 10:45 PM
Welcome to the World Cup! Where players from around the world are representing their homeland or if their country is shitty, a different country they can weasel their way into that gives them the best shot at winning something!

That's the slogan, right? The World Cup, where representing your country isn't important. Lol it's insane.

Abou Sky
06-15-2014, 11:40 PM
^^But which is your country? The place you live? The place you were born? The place you grew up? Where your ancestors are from?

My dad is Lebanese, I wasn't born there and don't even speak the language, but for some reason, I go there and something is 'right' I have known many people who say the same about Greece, Italy, Portugal, Nigeria etc

Regarding 'playing for your country' like I said, today I can say 'play for Canada' over a place like Brazil /Spain, but if by chance my son asked 'do I play for Canada or Lebanon' I would be a little more torn.

I think that JDG2 is a little different because of how he handled it, but I don't think that the land of your birth should be the only deciding factor.

Basically, I think that it is complicated.

Shakes McQueen
06-15-2014, 11:57 PM
^^But which is your country? The place you live? The place you were born? The place you grew up? Where your ancestors are from?

My dad is Lebanese, I wasn't born there and don't even speak the language, but for some reason, I go there and something is 'right' I have known many people who say the same about Greece, Italy, Portugal, Nigeria etc

Regarding 'playing for your country' like I said, today I can say 'play for Canada' over a place like Brazil /Spain, but if by chance my son asked 'do I play for Canada or Lebanon' I would be a little more torn.

I think that JDG2 is a little different because of how he handled it, but I don't think that the land of your birth should be the only deciding factor.

Basically, I think that it is complicated.

It's not new. People immigrate to places like Canada for the opportunity, freedom, and chance at a "new life" - yet still often identify with the culture their family came from.

However, for multi-generation Canadians, this can feel frustrating, because it's like people come here for all of the great things about our country, yet feel no particular affinity for it (or desire to proudly represent us on the world stage).

As for the rules - if I were FIFA, I'd limit international eligibility to countries you've lived in for at least 5 years, and if that doesn't apply because you've moved around, default to whatever your citizenship is. Something along those lines.

It annoys me that people can represent a country they've potentially never even been to, because one parent was born there, or something. Like I said before - national teams should be about more than just more mercenary trophy chasing, and trying to triangulate which "opportunity" gives you the best shot at the World Cup.

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 09:05 AM
Look at Asmir Begovic. Played every level of youth for Team Canada. But at the top level he sat and waited for a call. All the CSA had to do was throw him in net once in a friendly. Instead Bosnia shows up and asks him "Hey, how would you like to start for us?"

Of course he said yes.


There is more to this than a flippant question. I'm not happy about it either but I've read between the lines.



“When I made the decision it was mainly for footballing reasons,” Asmir told www.sellsgoalkeeperproducts.com (http://www.sellsgoalkeeperproducts.com). “Bosnia get to play for two major tournaments, the European Championships and the World Cup, and play a lot of high profile matches as a result.

“It also meant a lot to my family; when I was playing for Canada most of my family were back home to couldn’t get to watch me play, whereas now they can all come and see me, including my parents.

"Seeing me play for Bosnia has a lot more meaning to my family. It was a big decision at the time but I’m happy I made it.”

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 09:12 AM
Because otherwise it's a bit of a double standard

But from a CMNT perspective, I feel the CSA deserve blame for not doing everything they can to entice players like JDG2 and cap tie them. We need to call up players like this while they're still young, and make them feel good about representing Canada. Talk big and get them excited. I mean JDG2 wasn't even eligible for the Oranje until after he was 20! You have to think that if the CSA wasn't a mickey mouse organization, they would have noticed him long before he was eligible for Holland and done everything to cap tie him. But even after that, when he was talking about looking into playing for Canada, you would think that they would do everything in their power to make it easy for him to play for Canada and try to get him excited to play for them. Instead, I always got the impression that they went at it with a "we'll see what we can do, but we won't try too hard" kind of approach. That's not how you get good players to play for you. And unfortunately with the way migration is these days, nation teams have to do that.

What's fair about being a supporter? We are bias by nature. To deny that is to contribute to the confusion that mires the pride in our particular nationality. And the bolded above is pure speculation.

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 09:13 AM
This is what 'm talking about. This over simplification of human self-identification is the problem. Countries (political entities) come and go. They are created, destroyed, unified and divided all the time. People's sensibilities and how they identify themselves is entirely different.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbzllfe3Aa1qkaj0no1_500.jpg

MKR
06-16-2014, 09:17 AM
i thought he was poor against spain. The weakest link on the dutch team. They looked better when he was subbed off.

Jack
06-16-2014, 09:19 AM
It's not new. People immigrate to places like Canada for the opportunity, freedom, and chance at a "new life" - yet still often identify with the culture their family came from.

However, for multi-generation Canadians, this can feel frustrating, because it's like people come here for all of the great things about our country, yet feel no particular affinity for it (or desire to proudly represent us on the world stage).

As for the rules - if I were FIFA, I'd limit international eligibility to countries you've lived in for at least 5 years, and if that doesn't apply because you've moved around, default to whatever your citizenship is. Something along those lines.

It annoys me that people can represent a country they've potentially never even been to, because one parent was born there, or something. Like I said before - national teams should be about more than just more mercenary trophy chasing, and trying to triangulate which "opportunity" gives you the best shot at the World Cup.
Given the criteria you've laid out, JDG2 would still be eligible for Holland.

It's interesting that both JDG2 and Begovic are starting for the countries they chose at the World Cup, while our national program is at one of the lowest points in its history (at least in terms of FIFA rankings).

Jpexxx
06-16-2014, 09:33 AM
There is more to this than a flippant question. I'm not happy about it either but I've read between the lines.


He has said different things at various points.

http://fulltimefootballshow.blogspot.ca/2009/07/begovic-i-dont-want-to-switch.html


Below is a brief rundown of his comments:

On Canada v. Bosnia…
“I’ve played for Canada for a long time. There’s no decision, I don’t want to switch… but there is a state of uncertainty with Canada soccer (next coach, etc). Get things in place and I’m happy to stay with Canada, that’s where I see my future… I’ve been approached by Bosnia. There were talks… but I have no intention on playing for Bosnia.”

On coaching situation / Stephen Hart…
“Stephen Hart is a very likeable guy. He has a great respect from the players. But the uncertainty concerns many players. Hopefully he stays on… Hart told me I’m in his plans for the future… Which I’m happy with.”

A firm commitment to Canada when things get cleared up?...
“Yes… this isn’t a threat or an ultimatum. Myself and some of the other guys just want to know what’s going on. We can really build on our squad and succeed.”

Any pressure from either side?...
“The CSA has been really good… no pressure – I would never make a decision without speaking to the CSA. Bosnia – there’s been a lot of speculation, pressure/heat from them. If I was to make a decision, it can’t be made that quickly... I don’t want to change... it’s not really an issue right now.”

Other comments include…
“I have never had a problem playing for Canada… there shouldn’t be a change”
… and “I’ve been following the Gold Cup. This squad has a lot of potential. Hopefully they can go all the way and make a statement.”


I see a couple things important to note in there.

A) Mentions several times the "uncertainty" of the future moving forward with CSA. Notes the fact that he isn't the only player who was uncomfortable about that.
B) At this point, wether it is true or not, he states he had no intention to switch sides.


This is from wiki:

"On 14 August 2007, 20-year-old Begović received his first call-up to the senior Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men%27s_national_soccer_team) squad for the friendly match with Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland_national_football_team), but didn't see any action on the pitch.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmir_Begovic#cite_note-56) In November 2008, he accepted another call for Canada's 2010 FIFA World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup) qualifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_%E2%80%93_CONCAC AF_Third_Round) versus Jamaica, but again didn't get any playing time as Lars Hirschfeld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Hirschfeld) was the preferred option in goal."

Here are two cases where he was literally sitting on the bench. One was a freinyl vs Iceland... They literally could have subbed him into the game in the 90th minute and then he would be ours forever. Instead he now starts in the EPL and in the World Cup for another nation. Great for him, shitty for us.

My blame still rests with CSA.

Phil
06-16-2014, 09:46 AM
For me, whatever the guy wants because in the end its up to the player for his national squad selection. We need to improve a lot and expect more from the CSA in terms of making a team and culture that players want to be a part of.

I do find it hillarious that there are so many people who are objecting to JDG2 and others on twitter - that they are betraying Canada, getting really offended, meanwhile flying avatars and backgrounds that support other nations. The comedy of it all is amazing. Gotta love world cup hysteria.

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 09:50 AM
It's interesting that both JDG2 and Begovic are starting for the countries they chose at the World Cup, while our national program is at one of the lowest points in its history (at least in terms of FIFA rankings).

If by interesting you mean heart breaking, yes, I agree, and the FIFA rankings reflect the programs lowest point if not the actual numerical standing. I think what makes it interesting is we have people in here that still see personal opportunity over any sense of responsibility.

What makes it interesting is how much better our team could've been had they taken the hard road. I'm no talented player or father of one but I can make damn sure that players that play for the badge feel honoured by the appreciation I show them.


^^But which is your country? The place you live? The place you were born? The place you grew up? Where your ancestors are from?

My dad is Lebanese, I wasn't born there and don't even speak the language, but for some reason, I go there and something is 'right' I have known many people who say the same about Greece, Italy, Portugal, Nigeria etc

Regarding 'playing for your country' like I said, today I can say 'play for Canada' over a place like Brazil /Spain, but if by chance my son asked 'do I play for Canada or Lebanon' I would be a little more torn.

I think that JDG2 is a little different because of how he handled it, but I don't think that the land of your birth should be the only deciding factor.

Basically, I think that it is complicated.

RealG-TFC
06-16-2014, 10:08 AM
Regarding the Greendale logo:

Given your playful mockery of my comment, that highlighted the multi-faceted way humans/people identify themselves and how this can conflict with a singular (Canadian) identification, I cannot help but point out how you clearly identify with an particular Anglo-Canadian identity seeing as your username is "Fort York Redcoat".

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 10:47 AM
Regarding the Greendale logo:

Given your playful mockery of my comment, that highlighted the multi-faceted way humans/people identify themselves and how this can conflict with a singular (Canadian) identification, I cannot help but point out how you clearly identify with an particular Anglo-Canadian identity seeing as your username is "Fort York Redcoat".

I'm glad you're bringing up the bigger picture question. Someone always does in this convo. It stills takes away from the point, though. What counts in this thread is who you'd declare for and why. One's Username should be a clue as to what goes BEFORE the hyphen but it's what follows that we're talking about.

Villa TFC
06-16-2014, 10:58 AM
I am a massive believer in playing for your country, and by your country I mean the one you were born in and have spent most of your life in, just as I firmly believe that you should support your club, not the one at the top of the table even though you've never been to that city in your life. When it comes to national representation, things do get murky when people move around the world and have duel citizenship etc but I think there are some cases that are, at least in my opinion, fairly clear.

One of these is Begovic. He made himself available for Canada at every level including senior. He suited-up for Canada at senior level twice, but wasn't used. The commitment was there. Then Bosnia knocked on the door. Begovic was born in Bosnia. His entire family are Bosnian. He likely would never have left Bosnia but for the war. He embraced life in Canada and was happy to play for Canada, but he obviously felt that with Hirschfeld preferred as Canada's number one, it would be some time before he had the chance to be anything other than Canada's number two, but Bosnia suggested that he stood a good chance of being Bosnia's number one. I can't blame him. He's not Bosnian because of one Grandfather. It's not like he'd never been to the country before, didn't speak the language, didn't know anyone there. He gave Canada their chance and Hart blew it. As someone else said, if Hart had played him - even if only for a few minutes - he'd be a Canadian player now. Begovic isn't a turncoat or a traitor in my opinion.


Then there's Owen Hargreaves. Born in Canada and lived here until he was 16 years old and went to Germany to play with the Bayern Munich academy. At that point he could represent Wales (his mother's country of birth), England (his father's country of birth) or Canada (his country of birth and home for the first 16 years of his life). He represented Wales at youth level in the Milk Cup before choosing to commit to England. He was the first England player ever to have never lived in England. I know for a fact that Canada pursued him hard. One former U-20 coach did everything possible to get Hargreaves to commit to playing for Canada, calling in all sorts of favours along the way to get him to commit (a la Drake with Defoe). Every effort was made to woo him, but he still snubbed Canada to play for a country where he was not born and where he had never lived. I find that very poor. Yes, you could argue that many of us would choose to play for a country that features in most World Cups and Euros rather than one that struggles to qualify for the Gold Cup, but still, Canada was his place of birth and his home for his most impressionable years.

JDG2 is a bit more complicated for me. He was born in Canada and had no familial or even ancestral connection to Holland. However, he was only 12 when he moved to Holland which means he practically grew-up in Holland and may well now consider himself more Dutch than Canadian. I know Canada attempted to have JDG2 commit to Canada, but I have no idea how hard they tried or whether the CSA just sat back and assumed he'd follow his brother and therefore didn't bother putting much effort into it. Part of me says: he was born here, lived here until he was 12, his entire family lives here and his brother plays for Canada so of course he should have played for Canada. And part of me says: He moved to Holland when he was 12 and until he was loaned to Swansea, has lived there ever since. If a Dutch kid, or a Costa Rican, or an Argentine kid moved to Canada when he was 12 and had lived here ever since, we'd undoubtedly consider him Canadian. So I'm torn. But what I will say is that having chosen to represent Holland, he should never expect a hero's welcome here in Toronto. Whether his decision is right or wrong, by choosing to represent Holland he forfeited any chance of ever being a hometown hero here as far as I'm concerned.

Jack
06-16-2014, 11:08 AM
If by interesting you mean heart breaking, yes, I agree, and the FIFA rankings reflect the programs lowest point if not the actual numerical standing. I think what makes it interesting is we have people in here that still see personal opportunity over any sense of responsibility.

What makes it interesting is how much better our team could've been had they taken the hard road. I'm no talented player or father of one but I can make damn sure that players that play for the badge feel honoured by the appreciation I show them.

It seems to me that the CSA has not cultivated a sense of loyalty and pride in these players. There is not the same dream of pulling that red jersey over their head in football in our country the way there is in hockey. The football culture of many people is, understandably, tied to the "old country". Like it or not, that will probably continue as Canada's population growth is largely fuelled by immigration. That said, in the case of JDG2, it wasn't even the "old country" like it was with Begovic.

Villa TFC
06-16-2014, 11:25 AM
Of course there's also the whole issue of success, and that's not necessarily the chance of winning a trophy but just of appearing on a big stage or playing against big sides. If Canada regularly qualified for the World Cup, I suspect there would be far fewer instances of Canadians opting to represent other nations and in fact we might find tenuously-linked non-Canadians clamouring to represent Canada instead. In fact, when Canada qualified for the 1986 World Cup, Toronto Blizzard striker David Byrne - who was South African and consistently one of the top scorers in the NASL - expressed an interest to play for Canada in the World Cup. To his credit - and despite Canada struggling for goals at the time - Canadian manager Tony Waiters said that as Byrne hadn't been part of the effort to qualify, he wouldn't be part of the team going to Mexico. Ah, those were the days!

DigzTFC!
06-16-2014, 11:37 AM
You asked for one nation, now don't up the standard. It only takes one example to prove the idea that a domestic
league is 100% necessary is a wrong one.

A handful of talented players declaring for Canada would have made enough of a difference to get Canada in.

We have to disagree on your first statement. A league(s) is/are essential to competing at the World Cup because it creates a sustainable player pool to source from year after year. We cannot depend on foreign clubs to develop our players because by in large they won't play for us. If that player production comes from a semi-pro league (ala NZ) or a professional one we still need consistent player production.

Julian Deguzman said playing for Canada almost ruined his european club career because its a harder sell for agents and clubs hate low ranking games and pointless games due fatigue and injury - plus travel. It also helps to soften the blow when players don't sign up for Canada because we have more depth.

I agree, the handful of players your refer to would be enough but what about in 4 years time? Where is the next round of players coming from?

cmonyoureds
06-16-2014, 11:42 AM
I understand the venom towards JDG2, Hargreaves, *insert next name here*.
I really wish, however, we were as passionate about fixing the CSA - the cause - instead of crucifying the result - *insert names here*

Reading those Begovic comments, and the indication others feel the same way, is really a let down.
Could you imagine?

JDG2 "hey Asmir, what's up with Canada?"
Asmir "oh geez, don't even think about it, go with Holland"

Would that really be too far fetched to have happened?

cmonyoureds
06-16-2014, 11:43 AM
We have to disagree on your first statement. A league(s) is/are essential to competing at the World Cup because it creates a sustainable player pool to source from year after year. We cannot depend on foreign clubs to develop our players because by in large they won't play for us. Julian Deguzman said playing for Canada almost ruined his european club career because its a harder sell for agents and clubs hate low ranking games and pointless games due fatigue and injury - plus travel. It also helps to soften the blow when players don't sign up for Canada because we have more depth.

I agree, the handful of players your refer to would be enough but what about in 4 years time? Where is the next round of players coming from?

It would have to be the TFC academy. The CSA develops as an exception, not the rule.

DigzTFC!
06-16-2014, 11:56 AM
I hope so. I hope the MLS & NASL clubs can provide that player production and Sigma can keep it going. But I'd like to see that expanded. Very few players make it professionally. Expanded production is needed IMO. Maybe that's not the opinion of everyone.

Jack
06-16-2014, 12:02 PM
While every little amateur soccer overlord in our country continues to be more concerned with being a "winning coach" than developing talent, we will continue to suck.

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 12:16 PM
Of course there's also the whole issue of success, and that's not necessarily the chance of winning a trophy but just of appearing on a big stage or playing against big sides. If Canada regularly qualified for the World Cup, I suspect there would be far fewer instances of Canadians opting to represent other nations and in fact we might find tenuously-linked non-Canadians clamouring to represent Canada instead. In fact, when Canada qualified for the 1986 World Cup, Toronto Blizzard striker David Byrne - who was South African and consistently one of the top scorers in the NASL - expressed an interest to play for Canada in the World Cup. To his credit - and despite Canada struggling for goals at the time - Canadian manager Tony Waiters said that as Byrne hadn't been part of the effort to qualify, he wouldn't be part of the team going to Mexico. Ah, those were the days!

Chicken/Egg angle of "If we were better I'd play for us."

Who will improve the team? The ones who take it upon themselves and not blame who came before.

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 12:20 PM
I understand the venom towards JDG2, Hargreaves, *insert next name here*.
I really wish, however, we were as passionate about fixing the CSA - the cause - instead of crucifying the result - *insert names here*

Reading those Begovic comments, and the indication others feel the same way, is really a let down.
Could you imagine?

JDG2 "hey Asmir, what's up with Canada?"
Asmir "oh geez, don't even think about it, go with Holland"

Would that really be too far fetched to have happened?

Passionate, how? Like talking about how the CSA sucks? People say that to no avail already. We can talk about the provinces trying to align and what we suspect the CSA's endgame is once that happens but until we have transparency we couldn't progress convo past rampant speculation.

This thread is already holding the CSA accountable so what do you want to see about fixing the game?

Fort York Redcoat
06-16-2014, 12:26 PM
I hope so. I hope the MLS & NASL clubs can provide that player production and Sigma can keep it going. But I'd like to see that expanded. Very few players make it professionally. Expanded production is needed IMO. Maybe that's not the opinion of everyone.

The entire League One is made up of Academies. It was created in part to look at developing talent all in one place with no semi pro veterans peppered in the mix.

This League is a good thing for development but will not fill the role of a semi pro league at even the CSL level. (Not that it should)

prizby
06-16-2014, 03:12 PM
It's so tough because my son plays at a reasonably high level.

We have family in Spain and Brazil, by 13-14, if he is actually at a really high level, and TFC academy isn't way ahead of where they are now, we could send him there.

If he came to me and said 'dad, should I play for Canada or Spain /Brazil?'

I can say right now that 'he should play for Canada' but really, it would probably be 'kiddo, go win the world cup'

I forbid you to answer this question if he ever asks you this question; if anything, please defer to 'ask prizby'

thanks :)

prizby
06-16-2014, 03:16 PM
It annoys me that people can represent a country they've potentially never even been to, because one parent was born there, or something. Like I said before - national teams should be about more than just more mercenary trophy chasing, and trying to triangulate which "opportunity" gives you the best shot at the World Cup.

this happens in baskeball all the time in Europe with American's coming over...they represent a country like Georgia without having ever spent a day in the country; in return for citizenship, they suit up for that country, but they are using the citizenship more to prolong their european career (as they are not nba quality), so they don't count to a teams foreign player limit.

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2014, 05:59 PM
Given the criteria you've laid out, JDG2 would still be eligible for Holland.

Yeah, I know. My "solution" wouldn't solve all issues like this, but it would certainly make more sense than the current system.

I suspect, in reality, FIFA like giving players as many "home country" options as possible, because it lets more players from smaller nations come and play for FIFA's big moneymaker countries like Spain or England.

tfcleeds
06-16-2014, 10:30 PM
lol he was part of the team that spanked Spain…what a horrible decision he made not playing for canada haaa

No, he did make the right decision - for him, and his career. And fair enough. But by basically spitting in the face of the country of his birth, he should expect to be excoriated by soccer fans here. Which is why I hope he never signs for TFC.

tfcleeds
06-16-2014, 10:34 PM
I absolutely agree that I wouldn't want him here because of attitude, but I wouldn't say he paved the way for others to declare elsewhere, that's mostly on the CSA and their continued incompetence over the years. For me It wasn't about the fact he declared for Netherlands, I'm sure he does feel more Dutch than Canadian, but it was the declaration " if Canada did good I would choose them " which is the wrong attitude, he should have choose one side, and It wouldn't bother me if he choose Netherlands if it was an honest decision.

You're right he wasn't the one to pave the way. That was Whoregreaves.

tfcleeds
06-16-2014, 10:50 PM
I'm sorry, but this thread is really hitting a nerve with me. I just watched the USA beat Ghana in an exciting match - a USA team that has now been in 7 straight World Cups since we were in our last one. And while it's true that with their obvious advantages in terms of population and resources for player development that far exceed ours, should it really be the case that a country of some 35 million people can't make a bleeding tournament once in awhile? Yes, I get the argument that the CSA is less than useless - we all get that. But having turncoats like Whoregreaves, JDG2, Teal Bunbury, and Junior Hoilett not declaring for us certainly doesn't help get us to get to where we need to be, does it?

Look at Brazil. They don't even NEED Diego Costa. But look at the reaction he got in Salvador from the crowd. And that's BRAZIL. So why some people don't quite get why we're upset with these turncoats really baffles me. It really does.

jabbronies
06-16-2014, 11:42 PM
I feel like the USSF has it's shit together. That's why players are not turning on their country. They believe in the system because the system has proven itself to be improving in every aspect of the sport.

The CSA is a fucking joke. Might as well be the Toronto City Council up there running the CSA it'd be the same thing. A bunch of fucking yahoo's who clearly don't know a shit about how to develop a football system in a country. Their coaching credentials are fucking sub par - their player development system is basically non-existent. Why would any player who has a chance to go and work with a real association give up the chance to do so.

Yes, playing for your country is something special, but when the governing body running your national program are incompetent and run the risk of you jeopardizing your lively hood, I say fuck 'em.

This is part of a players job. A part of their lively hood. Why allow a bunch of imbeciles to jeopardize what you as a player have worked so hard for.

Players in this country are not being developed to the level they are at thanks to the CSA - it' because of the natural skill and ability of that player and the few/rare coaches in the system who know what they are doing.

Our coaches go the US to get proper coaching credentials. No one comes here for anything.

It stings to see home born players leaving our country, but I blame the CSA for it. Who in their right mind would want to join with a lacklustre association like the CSA?

Fort York Redcoat
06-17-2014, 07:39 AM
I feel like the USSF has it's shit together. That's why players are not turning on their country. They believe in the system because the system has proven itself to be improving in every aspect of the sport.

The CSA is a fucking joke. Might as well be the Toronto City Council up there running the CSA it'd be the same thing. A bunch of fucking yahoo's who clearly don't know a shit about how to develop a football system in a country. Their coaching credentials are fucking sub par - their player development system is basically non-existent. Why would any player who has a chance to go and work with a real association give up the chance to do so.

Yes, playing for your country is something special, but when the governing body running your national program are incompetent and run the risk of you jeopardizing your lively hood, I say fuck 'em.

This is part of a players job. A part of their lively hood. Why allow a bunch of imbeciles to jeopardize what you as a player have worked so hard for.

Players in this country are not being developed to the level they are at thanks to the CSA - it' because of the natural skill and ability of that player and the few/rare coaches in the system who know what they are doing.

Our coaches go the US to get proper coaching credentials. No one comes here for anything.

It stings to see home born players leaving our country, but I blame the CSA for it. Who in their right mind would want to join with a lacklustre association like the CSA?

It's been 3 campaigns I've heard this story and I think the issue has always been a lack of transparency. Promotion is something America does well, no doubt, but what do we know of CSA structure? People are forced to assume the worst (Apathy and incompetence instead of struggling for improvement through a commitment to an acknowledged and well known plan).

As a supporter I can enjoy the freedom to get behind anyone who plays for us and if they don't I hope they just play for a club only and not hurt us down the road playing for another nation.

Fort York Redcoat
06-17-2014, 07:41 AM
For me It wasn't about the fact he declared for Netherlands, I'm sure he does feel more Dutch than Canadian, but it was the declaration " if Canada did good I would choose them " which is the wrong attitude, he should have choose one side

The former makes him an international opportunist, the latter, a coward.

Phil
06-17-2014, 07:46 AM
Remember all those world cup qualifiers at BMO?

The only people to actually promote the words - WORLD CUP - were the Voyageurs. CSA has no clue on how to market a game, let alone properly run a team. Speaks volumes to me about the state of that organization.

ensco
06-17-2014, 08:12 AM
We are screwed by it, but there have always been guys like JDG2 in world football, Argentines who play for Italy, Costa going to Spain. Even the Irish playing in England mostly had some real connection to Ireland (I know there were one or two exceptions).

The USA actually has a really weird thing going on - all these kids of servicemen that really have no connection to the USA. The cap on USA football is the lack of American military bases in Argentina and Brazil!

Fushida
06-17-2014, 10:41 AM
I'm sorry, but this thread is really hitting a nerve with me. I just watched the USA beat Ghana in an exciting match - a USA team that has now been in 7 straight World Cups since we were in our last one. And while it's true that with their obvious advantages in terms of population and resources for player development that far exceed ours, should it really be the case that a country of some 35 million people can't make a bleeding tournament once in awhile? Yes, I get the argument that the CSA is less than useless - we all get that. But having turncoats like Whoregreaves, JDG2, Teal Bunbury, and Junior Hoilett not declaring for us certainly doesn't help get us to get to where we need to be, does it?

Look at Brazil. They don't even NEED Diego Costa. But look at the reaction he got in Salvador from the crowd. And that's BRAZIL. So why some people don't quite get why we're upset with these turncoats really baffles me. It really does.

I don't get it. Why does country of birth carry more weight than the country that has contributed more to your development? I agree wholeheartedly with the Hargreaves and Begovic hate because they spent a vast amount of time here, took our resources from the youth sides, then decided to scram to other nations when the going got better for them. But JDG2 for example, the kid developed in Holland, spent more than half of his life there, he owes what he is in terms of career to Feyenoord and the system over there. What did Canada do for him in terms of soccer? He didn't fucking renounce his Canadian citizenship, but we contributed much less than the Dutch did to his game. Fair game to him IMO, let him choose who he wants to represent. I'm not a fan of any of these guys because my heart feels the same as you, but logically speaking it just makes sense for them.

jabbronies
06-17-2014, 10:44 AM
What are peoples take on USMNT player Jermaine Jones

The guy was born in germany, spent most his life in germany, but plays for USMNT?

jabbronies
06-17-2014, 10:46 AM
I don't get it. Why does country of birth carry more weight than the country that has contributed more to your development? I agree wholeheartedly with the Hargreaves and Begovic hate because they spent a vast amount of time here, took our resources from the youth sides, then decided to scram to other nations when the going got better for them. But JDG2 for example, the kid developed in Holland, spent more than half of his life there, he owes what he is in terms of career to Feyenoord and the system over there. What did Canada do for him in terms of soccer? He didn't fucking renounce his Canadian citizenship, but we contributed much less than the Dutch did to his game. Fair game to him IMO, let him choose who he wants to represent. I'm not a fan of any of these guys because my heart feels the same as you, but logically speaking it just makes sense for them.

according to this article he would have had to and that is where a large part of the hate comes into play:
http://www.goltv.ca/blog/lee_godfrey_soccer_blog/272/

Suds
06-17-2014, 11:09 AM
Could care less where he's played internationally.

This is is a club team. If he's value for money at the time and helps us win games the sign him up.

Kaz
06-17-2014, 12:06 PM
What are peoples take on USMNT player Jermaine Jones

The guy was born in germany, spent most his life in germany, but plays for USMNT?

That one is a little more sticky as he already was an American, lived in the US, and moved to Germany with his Mother (whom I'm assuming is German) after a divorce.

It is a choice of opportunity. He was raised (his formative years) in Germany, played in Germany, played for Germany (non-competitively) and wanted to play for Germany, waited until he was 26-27 to make the call to play for the US after attempting to break the German National Team.

The US was his second choice, a nation he has direct and born legal standing in, and only after he tried to play for the nation he lived and spent his formative years and playing career in.


JDG2 went to play in Netherlands to get better, has no born legal standing in the nation, made him self available at his first chance before he had fully developed, without ever really attempting to play for the nation of his birth, plays over seas. And then had the nerve to call Toronto his Home, and wanting to play for a Canadian team for his retirement, which would put a maple leaf on his kit... a Emblem he all but spit on.

So I have no issue with Jermaine Jones at 26-27 deciding to play for the nation of his fathers birth after failing to be able to crack the National team he calls home.

Teal Bunberry as much as it annoys me really spent no time in Canada and had almost no connection to Canada and so it is understandable.

JDG2 parents are here, his brother plays for the national team and he in his ego decided to play for Netherlands as fast as he could without attempting to play for Canada at Youth or in a National Friendly.

Kaz
06-17-2014, 12:09 PM
I don't get it. Why does country of birth carry more weight than the country that has contributed more to your development? I agree wholeheartedly with the Hargreaves and Begovic hate because they spent a vast amount of time here, took our resources from the youth sides, then decided to scram to other nations when the going got better for them. But JDG2 for example, the kid developed in Holland, spent more than half of his life there, he owes what he is in terms of career to Feyenoord and the system over there. What did Canada do for him in terms of soccer? He didn't fucking renounce his Canadian citizenship, but we contributed much less than the Dutch did to his game. Fair game to him IMO, let him choose who he wants to represent. I'm not a fan of any of these guys because my heart feels the same as you, but logically speaking it just makes sense for them.


He choose to go to Netherlands to develop more, and then turned his back on Canada... His brother plays for Canada, his family lives in Canada. He went because he wanted to play football.. the fact he feels no national connection and is purely a selfish brat his is right.. and it's my right to tell him to get the fuck out, he doesn't deserve the maple leaf.


Oh and I did some checking.


In most cases you will have to (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)give up any other nationalities (https://ind.nl/EN/individuals/residence-wizard/Pages/renouncing-nationality-and-exceptions.aspx). However, you will not have to give up your other nationality if: (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)

[*=left]the country that you come from does not allow you to; (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)
[*=left]you were born and currently live in the Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao or St Maarten; (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)
[*=left]you are married to a Dutch national; (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)
[*=left]you are a refugee and live in the Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao or St Maarten. (http://www.government.nl/issues/nationality/becoming-a-dutch-national)






JDG2 is not a Canadian.. and he is not good enough to waste an international slot on... and never will be.

brad
06-17-2014, 12:18 PM
What are peoples take on USMNT player Jermaine Jones

The guy was born in germany, spent most his life in germany, but plays for USMNT?

Or Thomas Radzinski - who was born in Poland, learned the game in Poland and Germany, and came to Canada when he was 17

Phil
06-17-2014, 12:31 PM
Could care less where he's played internationally.

This is is a club team. If he's value for money at the time and helps us win games the sign him up.

I don't disagree.

Thing is, there is a long way between a player saying he wants to play for a team and a GM saying he wants a player.

DigzTFC!
06-17-2014, 01:12 PM
You guys are oversimplifying it. Clubs take into account more than player abilities for marquee players like cultural fit, locker room fit, playing style, jersey revenue, impact on ticket revenue etc.

Do you really think MLSE would bring in a player after spending $100 million on players in a rebranding exercise that would tick off at least 20% of the fanbase. That's also not including the $160 million going towards upgrading and expanding the stadium....really it makes no sense from MLSEs standpoint. They can find a player of his caliber without the baggage.

Suds
06-17-2014, 01:30 PM
You guys are oversimplifying it. Clubs take into account more than player abilities for marquee players like cultural fit, locker room fit, playing style, jersey revenue, impact on ticket revenue etc.

Do you really think MLSE would bring in a player after spending $100 million on players in a rebranding exercise that would tick off at least 20% of the fanbase. That's also not including the $160 million going towards upgrading and expanding the stadium....really it makes no sense from MLSEs standpoint. They can find a player of his caliber without the baggage.

Sure, I am over simplifying it.

They take it all into account. Players are brought in to win and turn a profit and anything that can impact the team's ability to make that profit will be considered. My point is, I do not care personally. But I'm just one customer. If they felt the overriding sentiment would be very negative bringing in a player then they may choose to pass. There's always another player.

Anyway, between now and the tail end of JDG2's career is a lifetime in football. It may not even be an option for him or the club at the time.

C.Ronaldo
06-17-2014, 01:44 PM
JDG seems to speak pretty good freaky deaky dutch

But it seems he was pretty honest in saying he would like to retire at TFC.
(warning, this video fails to mention is Canadian born)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bmVbVhrAko

Abou Sky
06-17-2014, 02:10 PM
It seems to me that the CSA has not cultivated a sense of loyalty and pride in these players. There is not the same dream of pulling that red jersey over their head in football in our country the way there is in hockey. The football culture of many people is, understandably, tied to the "old country". Like it or not, that will probably continue as Canada's population growth is largely fuelled by immigration. That said, in the case of JDG2, it wasn't even the "old country" like it was with Begovic.

I am reasonably new to the soccer world, but from what I have heard, the CSA has been very, very poor about making Canada the place that people want to be.

DigzTFC!
06-17-2014, 02:24 PM
The most frustrating part about it all is players getting capped tied or switching allegiances and then never really playing for those countries. Vitoria, Ferriera, Burnbury, Fernandes etc. It is a complete waste. Portugal seems to be take anyone from us that's over 6 feet.

prizby
06-17-2014, 02:54 PM
Remember all those world cup qualifiers at BMO?

The only people to actually promote the words - WORLD CUP - were the Voyageurs. CSA has no clue on how to market a game, let alone properly run a team. Speaks volumes to me about the state of that organization.

yet the CSA can get twice as many to a woman's match now

prizby
06-17-2014, 02:59 PM
The most frustrating part about it all is players getting capped tied or switching allegiances and then never really playing for those countries. Vitoria, Ferriera, Burnbury, Fernandes etc. It is a complete waste. Portugal seems to be take anyone from us that's over 6 feet.

who is Ferriera?

Suds
06-17-2014, 03:00 PM
yet the CSA can get twice as many to a woman's match now

I would put forward the point that this has more to do with the success of the women's team and the fact their own achievements have captured the attention of Canadians. I think it has little to do with the CSA and its ability to market the team.

But let's not take this thread off point. The CSA has been debated in many other threads.

DigzTFC!
06-17-2014, 03:57 PM
who is Ferriera?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Ferreira_%28Portuguese_footballer%29

There's a few more of these guys too. Fraser Aird (who can come back from Scotland) etc.

Jpexxx
06-17-2014, 04:08 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Ferreira_%28Portuguese_footballer%29

There's a few more of these guys too. Fraser Aird (who can come back from Scotland) etc.


Looks like Ferreira hasn't been capped by Portugal yet!

C'mon CSA! ;)

TFC07
06-17-2014, 08:44 PM
It's sad to think if we had all Canadian players playing for Canada, that maybe we will be playing in World Cup right now.

DigzTFC!
06-17-2014, 09:37 PM
It's sad to think if we had all Canadian players playing for Canada, that maybe we will be playing in World Cup right now.

It's why I get infuriated when people say "why should they play for Canada".

Because we would be in the world cup with 6-7 more quality players.

inheavensince07
06-18-2014, 09:05 AM
It's why I get infuriated when people say "why should they play for Canada".

Because we would be in the world cup with 6-7 more quality players.

JDG2 went to europe when he was 12 ffs .. the CSA was in shambles and still is to some degree .. God forbid anyone would ever do what is good for them at the time.. I love all of these soap box people that say that country is the be all and end all .. He choose to go with a better program .. We should all support him at the least if not then please just go enjoy watching Canada stumble through the next WC qualifiers and fail again..

C.Ronaldo
06-18-2014, 09:15 AM
The most frustrating part about it all is players getting capped tied or switching allegiances and then never really playing for those countries. Vitoria, Ferriera, Burnbury, Fernandes etc. It is a complete waste. Portugal seems to be take anyone from us that's over 6 feet.

I don't agree with them jumping ship, but Portugal has a few academies in Canada that ship them off to the main land. Then agents get in their heads and convince them (not that its hard), that playing for Portugal is better for their career. Most of those kids also play for the younger national teams of Portugal.

Same deal happened with Diego Costa, only that backfired and he chose spain.


But at least they have cultural ties. JDG is not dutch in any way except that he moved there as a young teen. (im sure all dutch training and agents would have dropped him like a bag of potatoes if he played for Canada though)

C.Ronaldo
06-18-2014, 09:16 AM
It's why I get infuriated when people say "why should they play for Canada".

Because we would be in the world cup with 6-7 more quality players.

but would those players be that good if they had not left to be trained elsewhere.

inheavensince07
06-18-2014, 09:18 AM
but would those players be that good if they had not left to be trained elsewhere.


ding ding ding

backbeat
06-18-2014, 09:45 AM
JDG2 went to europe when he was 12 ffs .. the CSA was in shambles and still is to some degree .. God forbid anyone would ever do what is good for them at the time.. I love all of these soap box people that say that country is the be all and end all .. He choose to go with a better program .. We should all support him at the least if not then please just go enjoy watching Canada stumble through the next WC qualifiers and fail again..


Is our citizenship so cheap to be discarded for a chance to play a game for another country? It had nothing to do with his ability to earn a living rather play for their national team. either way i find it distasteful to say the least.

I could accept it if he said that he feels more Dutch now and that is his home and that is why - many have done that but i will never accept renouncing one's Canadian citizenship just to play football on a better national team - that's crap.

Fort York Redcoat
06-18-2014, 09:47 AM
JDG2 went to europe when he was 12 ffs .. the CSA was in shambles and still is to some degree .. God forbid anyone would ever do what is good for them at the time.. I love all of these soap box people that say that country is the be all and end all .. He choose to go with a better program .. We should all support him at the least if not then please just go enjoy watching Canada stumble through the next WC qualifiers and fail again..

Wow. Already defeated as a Canada supporter, huh? Well why bother attaching any sentiment to him at all? Follow a better player if nationality doesn't matter. Why talk about this player at all?


but would those players be that good if they had not left to be trained elsewhere.

No but that is besides the point. That is on the CSA importing better coaching and growing their own. Nationality should not be a professional decision.

inheavensince07
06-18-2014, 09:48 AM
Is our citizenship so cheap to be discarded for a chance to play a game for another country? It had nothing to do with his ability to earn a living rather play for their national team. either way i find it distasteful to say the least.

I could accept it if he said that he feels more Dutch now and that is his home and that is why - many have done that but i will never accept renouncing one's Canadian citizenship just to play football on a better national team - that's crap.

He will always be Canadian .. in his heart and with his passport .. ie-dual... . agree to disagree.. I appreciate your side .

Fort York Redcoat
06-18-2014, 09:50 AM
He will always be Canadian .. in his heart and with his passport .. ie-dual... . agree to disagree.. I appreciate your side .

His passport is Dutch. I believe its stated above that he has to renounce former nationalities to have it. So I guess you can still believe he's Canadian in his heart. Outside of football. Unless we get better that is.

backbeat
06-18-2014, 09:53 AM
He will always be Canadian .. in his heart and with his passport .. ie-dual... . agree to disagree.. I appreciate your side .


he renounced his Canadian citizenship - he is no longer a Canadian citizen.

As i said i have zero problem with it if he now feels he's more Dutch and that is his home but to renounce one's citizenship to play football is another thing - i have no respect for that at all - being Canadian is larger than that - imho

BeachTory
06-18-2014, 10:32 AM
this whole debate is more about securing a work permit in Europe. if he moved at 12 years old to pursue soccer it was in part because his older brother had paved the way somewhat and the family were much more aware of the rules. It is very difficult to get a work permit to play soccer in Europe with only a Canadian passport. He had access to a Dutch passport through I believe grandparents.

If you want to know about being shut out of the Netherlands as a Canadian just ask Kyle Bekker who was offered a spot at Ajax Academy if I recall correctly but couldn't take it because he could not get his citizenship/work permit sorted out.

I refuse to believe that anyone would be capable of saying he wanted to play for Canada and had the CSA jumping hoops to get the passport and one time switch completed and had his brother go on Canadian television saying all this without honestly trying to make it happen. Passports and work permits are much more complicated than most people think. They don't come fast or ever and they certainly come with tax, residency and family considerations.

slighty off topic - Nick Garcia (TFC) had a dentist wife. She could not work in Toronto. I knew them through my kids school. they were shocked and flabbergasted that she couldn't work as a dentist in Canada. Even smart people have no idea how the world works. I have often wondered what Jacob Peterson had going on in his personal life to make such disparaging comments about Canada. Maybe he is a complete dick after all.

backbeat
06-18-2014, 10:39 AM
this whole debate is more about securing a work permit in Europe. if he moved at 12 years old to pursue soccer it was in part because his older brother had paved the way somewhat and the family were much more aware of the rules. It is very difficult to get a work permit to play soccer in Europe with only a Canadian passport. He had access to a Dutch passport through I believe grandparents.

If you want to know about being shut out of the Netherlands as a Canadian just ask Kyle Bekker who was offered a spot at Ajax Academy if I recall correctly but couldn't take it because he could not get his citizenship/work permit sorted out.

I refuse to believe that anyone would be capable of saying he wanted to play for Canada and had the CSA jumping hoops to get the passport and one time switch completed and had his brother go on Canadian television saying all this without honestly trying to make it happen. Passports and work permits are much more complicated than most people think. They don't come fast.


my last comment on this as I don't want to belabour the point BUT...

he renounced his Canadian citizenship to play football - he is no longer a Canadian because of it and was having to go through the same process as anyone else would - tough luck

to me our citizenship shouldn't be considered so cheaply to discard and want back based on a football opportunity.

at least that's my opinion.

inheavensince07
06-18-2014, 11:21 AM
Lets take a 90 min break and watch the man in question... Cheers

Kaz
06-18-2014, 12:06 PM
He will always be Canadian .. in his heart and with his passport .. ie-dual... . agree to disagree.. I appreciate your side .

Dutch immigrants with no Dutch connection must give up all other nationalities. JDG2 is Dutch.. he is not a Canadian.. he gave up the right to call himself that, to wear our colours when he turned his back on our nation to play a game.

DigzTFC!
06-18-2014, 12:54 PM
JDG2 went to europe when he was 12 ffs .. the CSA was in shambles and still is to some degree .. God forbid anyone would ever do what is good for them at the time.. I love all of these soap box people that say that country is the be all and end all .. He choose to go with a better program .. We should all support him at the least if not then please just go enjoy watching Canada stumble through the next WC qualifiers and fail again..

This is the exact person I have trouble with. People who say we should support the people who chose to play for other countries and act like they're better than you for supporting Canada.

Jpexxx
06-18-2014, 02:54 PM
this whole debate is more about securing a work permit in Europe. if he moved at 12 years old to pursue soccer it was in part because his older brother had paved the way somewhat and the family were much more aware of the rules. It is very difficult to get a work permit to play soccer in Europe with only a Canadian passport. He had access to a Dutch passport through I believe grandparents.

If you want to know about being shut out of the Netherlands as a Canadian just ask Kyle Bekker who was offered a spot at Ajax Academy if I recall correctly but couldn't take it because he could not get his citizenship/work permit sorted out.

I refuse to believe that anyone would be capable of saying he wanted to play for Canada and had the CSA jumping hoops to get the passport and one time switch completed and had his brother go on Canadian television saying all this without honestly trying to make it happen. Passports and work permits are much more complicated than most people think. They don't come fast or ever and they certainly come with tax, residency and family considerations.




If the interviews with JDG1 as well as various reports at the time are to be believed, JDG2's paperwork could have been done in time for him to play for Canada, had they made the Hex.

Then they lost 8-1 in Honduras. I remember watching that and thinking "there goes the dream of JDG2 and Hoilett ever playing for us". I was ure if they made the hex both those players would come in and be the piece to push us into a WC berth.

I really had no expectation that JDG2 should then commit to an Association that was (at that point) 6 years away from a potential WC berth. Especially when he is still eligible and on the radar of a contender for the 2014 edition of the tourney.

Super
06-18-2014, 03:47 PM
To me it's pretty simple. When people immigrate here, do we not expect them to become Canadian, support all things Canadian, and be part of the national community? Do we not frown on people who support other teams over Canada? Yes, we do. So since JDG moved to Holland, and spent years there, should he not also follow the same rules we put on immigrants to Canada? Or does the rule only apply when it's in our national interest?

This is not the sort of discussion we should even have. JDG lived and played in Holland for years, he speaks the language, and he probably feels very Dutch. Not that he doesn't feel Canadian. But let's face it: one team is GREAT for your career, the other one is definitely not. Yet. So can't really blame the lad.

Now Hargreaves on the other hand ...

brad
06-18-2014, 03:57 PM
If the interviews with JDG1 as well as various reports at the time are to be believed, JDG2's paperwork could have been done in time for him to play for Canada, had they made the Hex.

Then they lost 8-1 in Honduras. I remember watching that and thinking "there goes the dream of JDG2 and Hoilett ever playing for us". I was ure if they made the hex both those players would come in and be the piece to push us into a WC berth.

I really had no expectation that JDG2 should then commit to an Association that was (at that point) 6 years away from a potential WC berth. Especially when he is still eligible and on the radar of a contender for the 2014 edition of the tourney.

Wasn't the thinking at that time though that they thought they would be able work it so that he could keep his Dutch passport and get his Canadian one back? And that fell through? I seem to recall that was the case.

His Dutch passport is the ticket to his career in Europe. If he lets that go, his career at any decent level over there is done.

inheavensince07
06-18-2014, 04:49 PM
To me it's pretty simple. When people immigrate here, do we not expect them to become Canadian, support all things Canadian, and be part of the national community? Do we not frown on people who support other teams over Canada? Yes, we do. So since JDG moved to Holland, and spent years there, should he not also follow the same rules we put on immigrants to Canada? Or does the rule only apply when it's in our national interest?

This is not the sort of discussion we should even have. JDG lived and played in Holland for years, he speaks the language, and he probably feels very Dutch. Not that he doesn't feel Canadian. But let's face it: one team is GREAT for your career, the other one is definitely not. Yet. So can't really blame the lad.

Now Hargreaves on the other hand ...

Thank you for putting what I feel into words.. Very well said.

We all love Canada including JDG2 so gosh darn it lets enjoy the whole mess

Alonso
06-18-2014, 05:53 PM
he renounced his Canadian citizenship - he is no longer a Canadian citizen.

As i said i have zero problem with it if he now feels he's more Dutch and that is his home but to renounce one's citizenship to play football is another thing - i have no respect for that at all - being Canadian is larger than that - imho



Reminds me of Conrad Black.

Renounces his citizenship for perceived greater glory.

It's a hard position to defend in my opinion.

I don't hate the guy, or wish him ill will, but he is persona non grata to me now.

Alonso
06-18-2014, 06:30 PM
JDG2 went to europe when he was 12 ffs .. the CSA was in shambles and still is to some degree .. God forbid anyone would ever do what is good for them at the time.. I love all of these soap box people that say that country is the be all and end all .. He choose to go with a better program .. We should all support him at the least if not then please just go enjoy watching Canada stumble through the next WC qualifiers and fail again..



Exactly.

God, or a conscious, if their is one to be had, does forbid one to be selfish.

God and/or conscience insists that one does what is best for family, for community and for country over ones own desires.

Anything else is selfish and contrary to human morals.

Obviously it's never this black and white when it comes down to the personal level and any perceived slights, but this is how it looks to the general public who don't have privy to Jonathan's reasons and decision making.

If you are born and raised here and don't feel Canadian that's fine. But don't go throwing out statements that you would like to finish your career at your place of birth near your family after you have satiated your glory hunting, or at least admit you made the selfish decision and ask for a humble and genuine apology.

In my opinion there is more glory to be had helping lift Canada, the country of your birth (your family) to world cup qualification, than there is in joining a perennial world cup favourite as some what of an outsider.

Pookie
06-19-2014, 09:04 PM
Nation.

What about the OSA?

He left Canada to get better training abroad at age 12. Had he or Julian stayed here, they would likely not have developed to the level that they did and achieve all that they have in their careers.

I can't fault a guy for feeling a sense of obligation and/or belonging to the country that essentially provided him the opportunity over the one that couldn't support it.

There are bigger questions to be asked about development opportunities in this country for young players.

razor787
06-19-2014, 09:32 PM
Nation.

What about the OSA?

He left Canada to get better training abroad at age 12. Had he or Julian stayed here, they would likely not have developed to the level that they did and achieve all that they have in their careers.

I can't fault a guy for feeling a sense of obligation and/or belonging to the country that essentially provided him the opportunity over the one that couldn't support it.

There are bigger questions to be asked about development opportunities in this country for young players.

Players leave their countries all the time to join academies abroad. That doesn't mean they end up joining that countries national team. More often then not, the players play for their home country.

Pookie
06-20-2014, 06:13 AM
So then it is reasonable for us to outsource player development and then have expectations that players will feel some obligation to the nation that at most provided them with an opportunity to experience obligatory snack time on the touch line?

Shakes McQueen
06-20-2014, 07:08 AM
So then it is reasonable for us to outsource player development and then have expectations that players will feel some obligation to the nation that at most provided them with an opportunity to experience obligatory snack time on the touch line?

I suppose it depends on whether you think pride or a sense of "obligation" to suit up for a national team is (or should be) primarily tied to the country itself, or simply the national governing body for the sport. We might not contribute to a person's soccer development, but how about healthcare? Good schools? General peace and stability? Social security? Plan to retire in Canada after your European soccer career is over? How about what Canada continues to provide for that person's family?

The CSA could be a well-run organization (cognizant of the fact that we are a small nation, whose population largely considers soccer a sport their little kids play, and not a legitimate professional western sport), and we would still have 12yo Canadian kids jumping at the chance to go develop with teams like Feyenoord, in countries where the sport is a national religion.

This is just gut feeling talking, but I suspect JDG2's decision to play for the Netherlands had everything to do with the Oranje being serious international contenders, and nothing to do with any sense of "obligation" to the country itself. Same with Hargreaves (though he was arguably "worse", having never even really set foot in England when he made his decision to play for them).

prizby
06-20-2014, 07:44 AM
Messi had no problem going back to play for Argentina despite spending his teen years in Spain

SoccMan2
06-20-2014, 10:31 AM
In todays world here in Canada if you are a kid who starts to play soccer at an early age and find that you are pretty good you don't necessarily have to go abroad to make it. I mean with the level of coaching improving everyday here in Canada and the introduction of the MLS academies and NASL and other academies if you have talent and are dedicated to trying to make it there is a chance now. You need talent and must be very dedicated. If you are good enough to eventually start on an MLS team and do well playing on an MLS team then the European teams will be calling, there are a number of examples of American players who did well in the MLS and now play or have played in Europe i.e. Bradley,Dempsey and Tim Howard to name a few. Maybe 20 years back players needed to go abroad at an early age but not today.

jabbronies
06-20-2014, 11:08 AM
Messi had no problem going back to play for Argentina despite spending his teen years in Spain

And despite getting jeered at by his fellow countryman as well:
http://www.football-espana.net/42619/messi-conundrum

Phil
06-20-2014, 11:20 AM
Meh, it all comes down to typical Candians (I know generalizing a bit here) not identifying with our nationality very well. I don't look around Canada and see a lot of pride, yes we talk about what a great place it is to live, but embracing and supporting other cultures is a major part of that. In the US its a melting pot, poeple go there and 'become' American. The flag is branded on everything and they constantly talk up how amazing their contry and identity is.

I think Canada is turning that corner a bit, we are becoming 'more proud' of who we are. I see it in the soccer community and in sports in general. The more this attitude gets out there you will see it trickle down into the atheltes themselves. They need to want to play for us, and we need to provide them with some national pride to support them.

Shakes McQueen
06-20-2014, 11:30 AM
Meh, it all comes down to typical Candians (I know generalizing a bit here) not identifying with our nationality very well. I don't look around Canada and see a lot of pride, yes we talk about what a great place it is to live, but embracing and supporting other cultures is a major part of that. In the US its a melting pot, poeple go there and 'become' American. The flag is branded on everything and they constantly talk up how amazing their contry and identity is.

I think Canada is turning that corner a bit, we are becoming 'more proud' of who we are. I see it in the soccer community and in sports in general. The more this attitude gets out there you will see it trickle down into the atheltes themselves. They need to want to play for us, and we need to provide them with some national pride to support them.

I think this is 100% true as well, and I actually quite like that Canada doesn't have that much patriotic fervor. I think there can be a constructive difference between pride and patriotism, and wish Canadians would have more of the former. We should take pride in our cultural mosaic, and our strong public institutions.

Pookie
06-20-2014, 11:44 AM
I suppose it depends on whether you think pride or a sense of "obligation" to suit up for a national team is (or should be) primarily tied to the country itself, or simply the national governing body for the sport. We might not contribute to a person's soccer development, but how about healthcare? Good schools? General peace and stability? Social security? Plan to retire in Canada after your European soccer career is over? How about what Canada continues to provide for that person's family?



I wasn't going to go the nationalist route but you did introduce it. Like it or not, Canada is not without its share of warts.

You mention healthcare. Pretty good record there, ranked 6th in the world. Unless you happen to be Aboriginal living in Canada's north in which case your health index would rank you at 68th in the world.

The cost of nutritious food often times exceeds the cost of alcohol, the latter being subsidized under Provincial regulatory actions. Those conditions exist today while residential schools and the social havoc that they wrought were of recent past. Not to mention the fact that a significant portion of Canada's GDP is based on the export of national resources, resources that are taken from lands that are still under negotiations for land claims. All of this existing in the face of large multinational corporations setting up on the edge of impoverished communities without returning a dime to the local area.

Lots of great things about our country. Period. Lots of room for improvement. I would hope that those with nationalistic sentiments that center around kicking a soccer ball would be as motivated to rectify issues such as the above.

Shakes McQueen
06-20-2014, 11:56 AM
I wasn't going to go the nationalist route but you did introduce it. Like it or not, Canada is not without its share of warts.

You mention healthcare. Pretty good record there, ranked 6th in the world. Unless you happen to be Aboriginal living in Canada's north in which case your health index would rank you at 68th in the world.

The cost of nutritious food often times exceeds the cost of alcohol, the latter being subsidized under Provincial regulatory actions. Those conditions exist today while residential schools and the social havoc that they wrought were of recent past. Not to mention the fact that a significant portion of Canada's GDP is based on the export of national resources, resources that are taken from lands that are still under negotiations for land claims. All of this existing in the face of large multinational corporations setting up on the edge of impoverished communities without returning a dime to the local area.

Lots of great things about our country. Period. Lots of room for improvement. I would hope that those with nationalistic sentiments that center around kicking a soccer ball would be as motivated to rectify issues such as the above.

I don't see how you can ever discuss playing for national sports teams, and any sense of "obligation", without making these considerations. Why does someone like Messi rush back to Argentina and suit up when called? Because he loves his country, and wants to wear that shirt, despite largely growing up in Spain.

World Cups, the Olympics; these kinds of events are supposed to be motivated by the same impulses - the desire to represent your country on the world stage. Or at least, this is the big lie that everyone buys into, and the organizations in charge are happy to peddle. You wouldn't see people in the streets, wearing English flag face paint, if it wasn't the case.

Personally, I have no delusions, and know the reality is more mercenary than that - especially in the case of the World Cup - but that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve pushback. Especially in cases where these people are happy to pull the patriotic heartstrings when it suits them.