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ManUtd4ever
12-30-2010, 10:01 AM
In your opinion, how will this controversial situation play out?

In my opinion, the best case scenario is that he earns a roster spot with Celtic and TFC receives a transfer fee to help pay for his replacement. Unfortunately, I believe he will return and eventually be dealt to another MLS club...

Milky
12-30-2010, 12:02 PM
In my opinion, best case scenario is DeRo stays with Toronto.

Carts
12-30-2010, 12:06 PM
I vote not to vote...

MartinUtd
12-30-2010, 12:10 PM
Maybe I'm being naive but I think he'll end up where he started: Back at TFC earning $400k

ManUtd4ever
12-30-2010, 12:20 PM
In my opinion, best case scenario is DeRo stays with Toronto.

In an ideal situation, I would also prefer that DeRo return, let bygones be bygones, and be a prolific scorer for our club. Unfortunately, I just don't think it's realistic anymore. DeRo was already unhappy with his contract situation before this debacle and the strained relationship between him and TFC management (the previous and current regime) has been poisoned further. If he returns bound to his existing contract, the controversy will surround the club all season and be a constant distraction...

Menelaos
12-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Oh look, another DeRo thread...

Nuvinho
12-30-2010, 12:31 PM
Celtic would be pretty dumb to sign DeRo. You telling me they can't find another player with his ability, who is younger, cheaper in Europe?

ManUtd4ever
12-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Oh look, another DeRo thread...

This thread is strictly for the purpose of gauging the sentiment amongst supporters as to what they think the future holds for the best player in franchise history. If you don't think it's relevant, don't vote...

Mikey
12-30-2010, 12:36 PM
Dero will be traded for a 4th round draft pick......TFC will finish 2011 below Vancouver in the table, and the team Dero goes too will make the playoffs.

Kooper
12-30-2010, 12:47 PM
Celtic would be pretty dumb to sign DeRo. You telling me they can't find another player with his ability, who is younger, cheaper in Europe?

and comes with less bagage and drama.

denime
12-30-2010, 01:01 PM
Multiple thread,sorry you know the rules.

Roogsy
12-30-2010, 01:02 PM
It's a poll about his future. Nobody has put up a thread on this before so I think it fits the rules.

Brooker
12-30-2010, 02:22 PM
I just want him to do something. Anything.

Hitcho
12-30-2010, 02:38 PM
Front office needs to sort this fucking mess out one way or another - and quickly.

Add that to the poll and it gets my vote... :D

deltox
12-30-2010, 03:18 PM
im surprised that TFC haven't signed a massive DP type player about now...not for the players skill but as a distraction tool.

aboveandbeyond
12-30-2010, 03:20 PM
im surprised that TFC haven't signed a massive DP type player about now...not for the players skill but as a distraction tool.

lol , that could happen ..

some big name broken down soldier..
we could all bitch about it and take our minds off Dero and shit<3

Dave67
12-30-2010, 03:27 PM
Dero will stay and get a new contract. The shambles of a front office will claim it was always their intent. The first home game will see Dero boo'd loudly when he is announced. He will then score 2 and we will all sing the B.I.N.G.O song loudly and forget this mess ever happened.

ensco
12-30-2010, 03:29 PM
Another poll idea:

What's your reaction been to the whole Dero mess?

* I love it. It's made my holidays more interesting and fun.
* I hate it. I keep posting that I hate it. But I can't stop coming to the site.

deltox
12-30-2010, 03:30 PM
^sounds about right

Wull
12-30-2010, 04:40 PM
where's the "as long as he goes and we get something decent for him, I don't give a fuck what he does" option?

__wowza
12-30-2010, 05:25 PM
^ this.

greatwhitenorf
12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
He'll play and star for Celtic, and charm everyone by moving into a working class neighborhood, where wife Brandy will be known as Bran of Green Gorbals.

Shakes McQueen
12-30-2010, 07:48 PM
Hard to say what will happen, until the new GM is put in place. Maybe that guy will clean house, or maybe he will rengotiate. Who knows.

I vote for "I don't care. I just want this to end, already."

- Scott

Redcoe15
12-30-2010, 11:37 PM
I vote not to vote...
:iagree:

Juanito
12-31-2010, 12:04 AM
Hard to say what will happen, until the new GM is put in place. Maybe that guy will clean house, or maybe he will rengotiate. Who knows.

I vote for "I don't care. I just want this to end, already."

- Scott

Yeah, me too. I have become incredibly apathetic towards the guy.

Keystone FC
12-31-2010, 03:59 AM
Is it a possibility that the MLS and/or TFC may fine or even suspend DeRo for not going through the proper channels? That's if DeRo stays in the MLS or TFC.

razor787
12-31-2010, 07:29 AM
Is it a possibility that the MLS and/or TFC may fine or even suspend DeRo for not going through the proper channels? That's if DeRo stays in the MLS or TFC.

I believe that FIFA can inforce the fine if he leaves, as long as its filed before the contract is voided.

LesH
12-31-2010, 02:27 PM
Can we stop talking about Dero at least until this Monday?
Thank you!

Waggy
12-31-2010, 03:14 PM
I believe that FIFA can inforce the fine if he leaves, as long as its filed before the contract is voided.

I'm sure if he stays under contract with TFC they can sanction him internally. Teams can always levy their own fines or bans for violating conduct rules and stuff

Chevy
12-31-2010, 10:57 PM
^^ Could they give him his million dollar salary, then fine him $600k?

Might make everyone happy.

Waggy
01-01-2011, 11:04 AM
^^ Could they give him his million dollar salary, then fine him $600k?

Might make everyone happy.

Ha. I think a public flogging would be more in order but to each his own :lol:

TFCREDNWHITE
01-01-2011, 01:33 PM
I dont give a shit anymore......i just want this team to win!

Derko
01-01-2011, 06:16 PM
I just want him to do something. Anything.


Yes, stop playing Recess Time Schoolyard Games, I mean he is a professional is he not, he does have an agent whom negotiations are supposed to go through, does he not.
If he moves on I hope he does well, Dero did great things at TFC, but in my opinion needs to be removed, yes Dero did score a lot of goals, but alas TFC did not make the playoffs, and did not advance to the next round of CONCACAF Champions League, And seriously, how much of a transfer fee is he worth, it's not like he is a youngster with potential ala Maurice Edu.

ArmenJBX
01-01-2011, 09:09 PM
Unrealistic expectations.
Transfer Window isn't even open yet.
Give him time. I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

ag futbol
01-01-2011, 09:30 PM
If he moves on I hope he does well, Dero did great things at TFC, but in my opinion needs to be removed, yes Dero did score a lot of goals, but alas TFC did not make the playoffs, and did not advance to the next round of CONCACAF Champions League,
In fairness, that's not really about Dero as much as some people seem to be trying to make that huge reach of an argument.

I'm not opposed to selling (or trading) but we need alternatives once he's gone. Not a lot of guys around the league that have his type of impact and new signings are an uncertain proposal. Maybe the F.O. has something in mind but let's note it won't be easy.

I really don't care whether TFC is a collection of likable or selfish individuals, but they have to get the job done on the field. Putting together a collection of "good attitudes" won't insure success by any means. Pretty sure we tried that out of the gate; last place wasn't so tasty. Careful what you wish for people.

This could be our strike force next year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV8ozxliySQ&feature=player_embedded#!

Derko
01-01-2011, 09:38 PM
In fairness, that's not really about Dero as much as some people seem to be trying to make that huge reach of an argument.

I'm not opposed to selling (or trading) but we need alternatives once he's gone. Not a lot of guys around the league that have his type of impact and new signings are an uncertain proposal. Maybe the F.O. has something in mind but let's note it won't be easy.

I really don't care whether TFC is a collection of likable or selfish individuals, but they have to get the job done on the field. Putting together a collection of "good attitudes" won't insure success by any means. Pretty sure we tried that out of the gate; last place wasn't so tasty. Careful what you wish for people.

This could be our strike force next year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV8ozxliySQ&feature=player_embedded#!

Yes collectively they MUST get the job done

jloome
01-02-2011, 02:29 AM
Don't know if this was posted before, but DeRo gets the heavy sell from Paul Daglish:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic/8227089/Celtic-target-Dwayne-De-Rosario-is-a-bit-special-says-Paul-Dalglish.html

wzhxvy
01-02-2011, 12:34 PM
How about this quote from the above from Celtic: "I’m not saying this is a done deal,” he said. “But it might just be a little bonus for us along the way without it costing us the Earth.”

Pookie
01-02-2011, 12:44 PM
^ price was probably less than the Earth until the little "tampering" issue came to light

Now, TFC hold leverage to make that problem go away.

Hopefully, TFC don't hold out for the moon too. Getting something and ridding yourself of a player that won't play for his contract and will be a distraction all year is still a win for the club.

Beach_Red
01-02-2011, 12:47 PM
^ price was probably less than the Earth until the little "tampering" issue came to light

Now, TFC hold leverage to make that problem go away.

Hopefully, TFC don't hold out for the moon too. Getting something and ridding yourself of a player that won't play for his contract and will be a distraction all year is still a win for the club.

Maybe they could ask someone at the league office how the Galaxy handle this kind of thing?

Pookie
01-02-2011, 01:00 PM
Maybe they could ask someone at the league office how the Galaxy handle this kind of thing?

Not a bad idea, they could conference DeRo and his agent in as well.

Beach_Red
01-02-2011, 01:20 PM
Not a bad idea, they could conference DeRo and his agent in as well.

:D at least his agent. (in my work I have an agent and I'm kept up to date but not directly involved with negotiations - I would make it personal and that's bad for business ;)).

bgnewf
01-02-2011, 01:38 PM
The Nuclear Option

http://tinyurl.com/265plxk

Would TFC even consider releasing DeRo in light of the issues swirling around the player, his contract status and the trial at Celtic?

Your comments are always welcome

levyashin
01-02-2011, 01:42 PM
What a lovely last 2 weeks,thank you Dero for our very own coronation street!!So much to angst over,so emotionally fulfilling.Our beloved TFC is as it should be,totally inept from top to bottom,a non G.m.;a non coach,a non president,only six M.L.S.calibre players and they want your head on a platter,you, who score goals on a regular basis ,happy new year to you and yours.

Beach_Red
01-02-2011, 02:01 PM
The Nuclear Option

http://tinyurl.com/265plxk

Would TFC even consider releasing DeRo in light of the issues swirling around the player, his contract status and the trial at Celtic?

Your comments are always welcome


So, is the upcoming 2011 season the "club option" year? if it is then certainly DeRo's agent knew the team was unlikely to pick up the option and started looking for work elsewhere. TFC can't pick up the option and expect to trade DeRo to another team at that salary cap hit, so if they pick it up they're stuck with him.

What's the deadline to either pick up the option or not and how does that deadline fit with the player trying to find work elsewhere?

It does seem like simply not picking up the option is all TFC have left for themselves. Has this team ever handled the exit of a player well? Dichio? Robinson? Even keeping Brennan in the lineup through training camp and a couple games into season...

jabbronies
01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
The Nuclear Option

http://tinyurl.com/265plxk

Would TFC even consider releasing DeRo in light of the issues swirling around the player, his contract status and the trial at Celtic?

Your comments are always welcome

Question about this line in the article:

"On the flip side of that coin you get the cap space to go out and sign maybe two or even three MLS quality players for the same amount you give DeRo. "

Who's available for us to sign that can fill the gap of scoring goals?

Ontario Arab
01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
I believe that FIFA can inforce the fine if he leaves, as long as its filed before the contract is voided.
I believe MLS will see FIFAs true colours and not fine anyone and MLS will suck it up.....Mmmmmmm we will see.

Pookie
01-02-2011, 02:40 PM
^ TFC were 13th out of 16 teams last year in Goals For with Dwayne.

12 other clubs managed to fill the gap of scoring goals without Dwayne in their line ups, I'm sure we'll be just fine.

Another plus, we might find a mid-fielder willing to move the ball forward with a pass to a striker. That might be more entertaining than a shot from 50 yards out. Just sayin'.

Pookie
01-02-2011, 02:50 PM
The Nuclear Option

http://tinyurl.com/265plxk

Would TFC even consider releasing DeRo in light of the issues swirling around the player, his contract status and the trial at Celtic?

Your comments are always welcome

Are you sure "not picking up the option" is an option?

I could have sworn that I saw some kind of deadline to exercise "club options" for the coming season. Players that didn't have their options picked up (ie. Angel) then became available for the re-entry draft that was held in December.

That said, there appear to be a few ways to "walk away" even if they did pick up the option such as waiving the player.

Just curious as picking up the option presumably makes his contract guaranteed.

__wowza
01-02-2011, 10:52 PM
^ TFC were 13th out of 16 teams last year in Goals For with Dwayne.

12 other clubs managed to fill the gap of scoring goals without Dwayne in their line ups, I'm sure we'll be just fine.

^ what he said.
i hate reading posts that run under the assumption that the goals dero scored wouldn't come from anywhere else. if dero scores 14 goals, would not having him mean we'd scored 14 goals less?

no. we'd just be getting them elsewhere.

Gazza
01-03-2011, 11:00 AM
^ TFC were 13th out of 16 teams last year in Goals For with Dwayne.

12 other clubs managed to fill the gap of scoring goals without Dwayne in their line ups, I'm sure we'll be just fine.

Another plus, we might find a mid-fielder willing to move the ball forward with a pass to a striker. That might be more entertaining than a shot from 50 yards out. Just sayin'.

How many goals would they have scored without their best offensive player?

Do you have faith that the organization will replace De Ro? Or that Chad Barrett would've picked up the slack?

Pookie
01-03-2011, 11:21 AM
^ why do you ask questions that have no answers? How many goals would they have scored without their best offensive player? Who knows?

Clearly though, they wouldn't have played a man down, someone would have taken that role. And they would have had $400k to spend to find a replacement or two.

What is true is that even with Dwayne, we weren't good enough. Perhaps our "team game" would be more effective without him taking shots from half or running into 3 defenders.

I have absolute faith that there is a replacement out there for Dwayne. Not to get into the age thing again but I'm not even sure that 2011 Dwayne will be able to duplicate 2010 or 2009 Dwayne.

Gazza
01-03-2011, 11:30 AM
^ why do you ask questions that have no answers? How many goals would they have scored without their best offensive player? Who knows?

Clearly though, they wouldn't have played a man down, someone would have taken that role. And they would have had $400k to spend to find a replacement or two.

What is true is that even with Dwayne, we weren't good enough. Perhaps our "team game" would be more effective without him taking shots from half or running into 3 defenders.

I have absolute faith that there is a replacement out there for Dwayne. Not to get into the age thing again but I'm not even sure that 2011 Dwayne will be able to duplicate 2010 or 2009 Dwayne.


I remember before Dwayne got here, wondering where the heck our goals would come from. When he got here, he was always the answer to that question.

Excuse me for being afraid of losing the only dangerous scoring threat this team has ever had. And having no faith in this organization to find anyone can do a similar job. I just don't see how it is a good thing to lose him. I could care less about his lack of leadership. This team needs production and results, not great guys and hard workers.

Beach_Red
01-03-2011, 11:31 AM
^ It will be interesting to see what the new management does with this situation. Not the greatest thing to be stepping into, but I guess that's normal, usually when new management comes in it's because the old management wasn't doing the best job.

So, what happens if they work things out with DeRo and decide to keep him - clean start with a new bunch of guys running things, does DeRo get a clean start, too?

ensco
01-03-2011, 11:39 AM
^Sure he does. If he likes what he sees, says the right things, and will report under the terms of his contract.

Regardless of who is in it, I don't think that any new TFC FO will give him a raise. They just won't - it's not the way to get off on the right foot.

It's about more than the new FO. I think the league is involved too. The MLS office is obviously part of the schmozzle over whether he had permission or not. For that reason, I don't see this becoming a hold out on Dero's part. He'd be allowed to leave, with very little coming back.

Beach_Red
01-03-2011, 11:54 AM
^Sure he does. If he likes what he sees, says the right things, and will report under the terms of his contract.

Regardless of who is in it, I don't think that any new TFC FO will give him a raise. They just won't - it's not the way to get off on the right foot.

It's about more than the new FO. I think the league is involved too. The MLS office is obviously part of the schmozzle over whether he had permission or not. For that reason, I don't see this becoming a hold out on Dero's part. He'd be allowed to leave, with very little coming back.


Sure, no raise. But also no more promises of renegotiating, no more, "our door is always open," and all that.

Do you think we'll ever find out how involved the league has been in all this?

P-NUTZ
01-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Based on JDG being overpaid, DERO deserves a little raise, and he might even be happy with that if the new management appeals to him.

He is a decent player and does score goals - he IS replaceable, but not easily if you look at the general quality of key players we've signed to date.

I would rather have him than not - maybe he's been as sick of this TFC mess as we've been? He just better not cross the fans, as we're not to blame.

ensco
01-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Do you think we'll ever find out how involved the league has been in all this?

Doubt it. I'm guessing the story is embarrassing to all concerned.

But the league office won't want to see him as a hold out. Dero's one of the faces of MLS.

Dero will get a certain amount of special consideration, and if he wants it, he'll leave. Sort of like McBride.

jloome
01-03-2011, 12:10 PM
I remember before Dwayne got here, wondering where the heck our goals would come from. When he got here, he was always the answer to that question.

Excuse me for being afraid of losing the only dangerous scoring threat this team has ever had. And having no faith in this organization to find anyone can do a similar job. I just don't see how it is a good thing to lose him. I could care less about his lack of leadership. This team needs production and results, not great guys and hard workers.

You're kind of ignoring the key point: even with DeRo, we were nearly last in the league in "production and results." Scoring goals single-handedly obviously isn't the only equation to success. We need a cohesive midfield. If one midfielder is roaming all over the field effectively playing for himself, I don't care how many he scores solo, he's going to cost us some as a team.

ManUtd4ever
01-03-2011, 12:11 PM
^Sure he does. If he likes what he sees, says the right things, and will report under the terms of his contract.

Regardless of who is in it, I don't think that any new TFC FO will give him a raise. They just won't - it's not the way to get off on the right foot.

It's about more than the new FO. I think the league is involved too. The MLS office is obviously part of the schmozzle over whether he had permission or not. For that reason, I don't see this becoming a hold out on Dero's part. He'd be allowed to leave, with very little coming back.

This is the key. If Celtic does not negotiate a transfer fee to acquire his rights, DeRo will most likely be given the opportunity to return provided the new management regime is confident that he will not be a negative distraction to the club throughout the season...

Roogsy
01-03-2011, 12:54 PM
Doubt it. I'm guessing the story is embarrassing to all concerned.

But the league office won't want to see him as a hold out. Dero's one of the faces of MLS.

Dero will get a certain amount of special consideration, and if he wants it, he'll leave. Sort of like McBride.


*touches nose*


(That's for you Parky)

ensco
01-03-2011, 01:04 PM
^isn't that what the RIDE guys make you do, if they suspect you are DUI? ;-)

Roogsy
01-03-2011, 01:05 PM
http://jakethecake.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/nosepick.jpg

Parkdale
01-03-2011, 02:01 PM
well played Calvin

Red CB Toronto
01-04-2011, 03:21 PM
As of today, is DeRo still training with Celtic?

Gazza
01-04-2011, 03:37 PM
You're kind of ignoring the key point: even with DeRo, we were nearly last in the league in "production and results." Scoring goals single-handedly obviously isn't the only equation to success. We need a cohesive midfield. If one midfielder is roaming all over the field effectively playing for himself, I don't care how many he scores solo, he's going to cost us some as a team.

I see. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the key point being made is that we were last in production and results, so we should gladly lose the only player on the team who actually produces and who consistently produced results in this league, even with TFC at times. I guess Montreal was a one off? De Rosario can't be blamed for the lack of talent and organization on this team.

I do remember him playing striker most of last season, so blaming him for the cluster-fudge that was our midfield, doesn't warrant much of a response. I do remember him tracking back. I also remember the amount of assists he got compared to the amount that he set up and were squandered. Unless the organization has a plan B or C, there is no way that letting Dwayne go so easily can be considered a good thing.

v00d00daddy
01-04-2011, 03:47 PM
I see. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the key point being made is that we were last in production and results, so we should gladly lose the only player on the team who actually produces and who consistently produced results in this league, even with TFC at times. I guess Montreal was a one off? De Rosario can't be blamed for the lack of talent and organization on this team.

I do remember him playing striker most of last season, so blaming him for the cluster-fudge that was our midfield, doesn't warrant much of a response. I do remember him tracking back. I also remember the amount of assists he got compared to the amount that he set up and were squandered. Unless the organization has a plan B or C, there is no way that letting Dwayne go so easily can be considered a good thing.

You've GROSSLY overestimated his contributions man. He scored a bunch of goals....absolutely. But his style of play took a lot away from the team playing as a TEAM.

And yes...Montreal was absolutely a one off. Unless you think DeRo is going to score like that against a team that actually cares to win. Cause he won't.

Let me ask you something:

How many players in this league (or any league for that matter) will attempt full volleys from 40 yards when there are other options available to them?

It's a sign of his on field character. He's a me-first, team second guy when he's out there. I've said it almost from day one. Watching him play, game in and game out, showed that he was not willing to share the ball when the situation called for it. He took ill advised attempts on goal and he rarely played in any kind of discernible position....making it harder for his already unskilled teammates to find him/feed him/support him.

I know it sounds ridiculous...but I've gotten to the point where I feel that all he brings is goals. I know that's a lot....but it's not even close to the only thing needed for a TEAM to be successful....as is evidenced by our record the last couple years.

TFC have been shit for a long time now (since inception). The last 2 years with DeRo are no exception.

I refuse to believe that he has nothing to do with TFC's futility. He's a part of the problem. Not the solution.

Gazza
01-04-2011, 04:06 PM
You've GROSSLY overestimated his contributions man. He scored a bunch of goals....absolutely. But his style of play took a lot away from the team playing as a TEAM.

And yes...Montreal was absolutely a one off. Unless you think DeRo is going to score like that against a team that actually cares to win. Cause he won't.

Let me ask you something:

How many players in this league (or any league for that matter) will attempt full volleys from 40 yards when there are other options available to them?

It's a sign of his on field character. He's a me-first, team second guy when he's out there. I've said it almost from day one. Watching him play, game in and game out, showed that he was not willing to share the ball when the situation called for it. He took ill advised attempts on goal and he rarely played in any kind of discernible position....making it harder for his already unskilled teammates to find him/feed him/support him.

I know it sounds ridiculous...but I've gotten to the point where I feel that all he brings is goals. I know that's a lot....but it's not even close to the only thing needed for a TEAM to be successful....as is evidenced by our record the last couple years.

TFC have been shit for a long time now (since inception). The last 2 years with DeRo are no exception.

I refuse to believe that he has nothing to do with TFC's futility. He's a part of the problem. Not the solution.

Answer me this...how many players have to carry a team on their back because the talent is lacking and the organization is incompetent? He had to carry this team just to squeak out draws. I'll take the 40 yard volleys over missed breakaways and sitters from everybody else any day. As long as he still produces. Which he has consistently.

They sucked before him and sucked with him...how is he the most important variable in that? Every other team he's been on has been great!

He's a champion, and MVP. He'll be known as one of MLS's best. Not to mention one of Canada's best. He led TFC in scoring and was by far our best offensive player and only threat. Stop me when you think i'm overvaluing him?....

Gazza
01-04-2011, 04:10 PM
And don't tell me about his attitude. I could care less. He shouldn't have been given the captaincy, but who else should it have went to?

I'm tired of toronto sport's fans valuing hard working, lunch pale guys over players who actually have talent.

v00d00daddy
01-04-2011, 04:24 PM
Answer me this...how many players have to carry a team on their back because the talent is lacking and the organization is incompetent? He had to carry this team just to squeak out draws. I'll take the 40 yard volleys over missed breakaways and sitters from everybody else any day. As long as he still produces. Which he has consistently.

They sucked before him and sucked with him...how is he the most important variable in that? Every other team he's been on has been great!

He's a champion, and MVP. He'll be known as one of MLS's best. Not to mention one of Canada's best. He led TFC in scoring and was by far our best offensive player and only threat. Stop me when you think i'm overvaluing him?....


Carried them on his back where exactly? Best offensive player...yup....but that means very little when you're comparing him to the offensive juggernauts known as Obrien White and Chad Barrett.


And don't tell me about his attitude. I could care less. He shouldn't have been given the captaincy, but who else should it have went to?

I'm tired of toronto sport's fans valuing hard working, lunch pale guys over players who actually have talent.

I agree with you about the love affair with hard working, lunch pail guys but why does that mean that I have to accept shitty attitude, selfish guys.

Why can't he be both?

BTW....before the cheque signing fiasco the vast majority of supporters DID think he was a selfless leader and great role model.

Oh how they were wrong. If people only could have seen the signs in his play on the field. The signs that he's a shitty team player and selfish have been there all along, it's just taken this whole situation for people to realize it.

Some still haven't. :wink5::D

jloome
01-04-2011, 04:30 PM
I also remember the amount of assists he got compared to the amount that he set up and were squandered.

Yeah, DeRo, the great playmaker. Really selling that one, Gazza. Four assists.

I'll concede however that you're right about him playing as a striker a lot, which is where he should be. But he's said himself he doesn't want to play there. And his big goals (the two in Houston for example) came when he was playing wide in a three-man front usually.

Gazza
01-04-2011, 04:31 PM
"Carried them on his back where exactly? Best offensive player...yup....but that means very little when you're comparing him to the offensive juggernauts known as Obrien White and Chad Barrett."

How would you feel about JUST having OB and Chad Barrett with Santos? Or, since we'll have to replace DeRo, how about we bring back Jeff Cunningham? I hear he's good.

Although I just heard that Rooney's coming to the MLS! John Rooney that is. Snap him up Mariner! He could be the replacement we need up front.

Pookie
01-04-2011, 04:48 PM
How about we bring back Dwayne and miss the playoffs again?

Let's not do anything different when things were working so smoothly over the last couple of years.

rocker
01-04-2011, 05:12 PM
How would you feel about JUST having OB and Chad Barrett with Santos? Or, since we'll have to replace DeRo, how about we bring back Jeff Cunningham? I hear he's good.
.

There are more players in the world than OB, Barrett, Santos, De Ro and Cunningham.

This new management team should be looking beyond what we already have or what is already known in the league.

People get too attached to the players we have, like De Ro, and assume it's impossible to replace him. De Ro can be replaced, if we actually have a competent management team. Use a DP spot to find a better all-round player than De Ro, who can score 10 goals.

Shakes McQueen
01-04-2011, 07:21 PM
"Carried them on his back where exactly? Best offensive player...yup....but that means very little when you're comparing him to the offensive juggernauts known as Obrien White and Chad Barrett."

How would you feel about JUST having OB and Chad Barrett with Santos? Or, since we'll have to replace DeRo, how about we bring back Jeff Cunningham? I hear he's good.

Although I just heard that Rooney's coming to the MLS! John Rooney that is. Snap him up Mariner! He could be the replacement we need up front.

You're substituting blinding sarcasm for a coherent argument.

Jeff Cunningham and John Rooney are the only options we would have to fill the hole left by trading or selling DeRo?

- Scott

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Ugh...so tired of the "we didn't get in the playoffs WITH him so...." argument. It is completely ignorant.

We didn't get into the playoffs with Danny...was he a bad signing? Would we have been better off without him?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Nana...should we let him go?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Frei in net? In fact, only 5 times had worse "goals against" records. I guess we should ship him out with Nana?

Using the "we didn't get into the playoffs" argument only highlights the selective nature of people's arguments. And completely overlook (I would think intentionally) that he has never missed the playoffs until he got to Toronto in a career where (I have to repeat once again) he has won FOUR MLS Cups. But no...it's DeRo, not the team that he was playing on that was the problem. That makes sense. :noidea:

Waggy
01-05-2011, 01:37 AM
Ugh...so tired of the "we didn't get in the playoffs WITH him so...." argument. It is completely ignorant.

We didn't get into the playoffs with Danny...was he a bad signing? Would we have been better off without him?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Nana...should we let him go?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Frei in net? In fact, only 5 times had worse "goals against" records. I guess we should ship him out with Nana?

Using the "we didn't get into the playoffs" argument only highlights the selective nature of people's arguments. And completely overlook (I would think intentionally) that he has never missed the playoffs until he got to Toronto in a career where (I have to repeat once again) he has won FOUR MLS Cups. But no...it's DeRo, not the team that he was playing on that was the problem. That makes sense. :noidea:

But Roogsy thats the point. That on a good team hes a good player. TFC does not have a good team. Why hold on to a 32 year old player when the team won't be competitive for 2 or 3 years? His role on Toronto FC is absolutely replaceable, and for less money, and by players who will be here a long time past 2012. And you can bank that if Frei or Nana were that age we'd be saying the same things about them

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2011, 02:09 AM
Ugh...so tired of the "we didn't get in the playoffs WITH him so...." argument. It is completely ignorant.

We didn't get into the playoffs with Danny...was he a bad signing? Would we have been better off without him?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Nana...should we let him go?

We didn't get into the playoffs with Frei in net? In fact, only 5 times had worse "goals against" records. I guess we should ship him out with Nana?

Using the "we didn't get into the playoffs" argument only highlights the selective nature of people's arguments. And completely overlook (I would think intentionally) that he has never missed the playoffs until he got to Toronto in a career where (I have to repeat once again) he has won FOUR MLS Cups. But no...it's DeRo, not the team that he was playing on that was the problem. That makes sense. :noidea:

I don't completely disagree with you, but this argument is usually only part of the larger argument being made. I've rarely seen people say DeRo is the problem with this team - I've seen people argue he is a problem with this team.

Nana and Frei make peanuts compared to DeRo, and are way younger than him. They also haven't propagated soap operas about their contracts.

As for DD, I don't think it's a given that we wouldn't have been better off without him. We love him because of the iconic nature of his accomplishments with the club, and his character. Could his salary have been better spent somewhere else? It's entirely possible.

Pointing to DeRo's past accomplishments isn't in itself a counter-argument. Especially when we are talking about an aging player who apparently won't be happy here unless he is making DP money. Could a DP salary/slot be better spent on someone besides the guy we already have under contract, who has never made DP money? It's also entirely possible.

I also think DeRo owes some of his past success, like pretty much every player, to being a part of good teams.

- Scott

prizby
01-05-2011, 02:14 AM
Nana, Dichio, and Frei have never publicly complained

los sonadores
01-05-2011, 06:26 AM
But Nana and Frei are at the beginning of their careers (Frei was still Gen Addidas and not in a position to complain). They are playing instead for the promise of larger contracts elsewhere, not at TFC.

Dichio had already made his money overseas and was looking for another challenge, a change of lifestyle and to extend his career a little. It was shameful that the management embarrassed him and didn't use him well on the field at the end. But it wasn't like he could have gone elsewhere at that point. He was pushed into retirement a touch early. What pricks TFC management have been at times. Difficult to have been supporting these dubious characters.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 09:47 AM
I don't completely disagree with you, but this argument is usually only part of the larger argument being made. I've rarely seen people say DeRo is the problem with this team - I've seen people argue he is a problem with this team.

Untrue. The DeRo threads are full of direct and clear accusations that DeRo IS the problem. If it were a broader sentiment against the club as a whole, I wouldn't be as fervent in my defense of the man.


Nana and Frei make peanuts compared to DeRo, and are way younger than him. They also haven't propagated soap operas about their contracts.

That's avoiding the point and bringing up an entirely different one. I am not comparing contracts or age, only results. The accusation is that this club with DeRo can't make the playoffs, the counter-argument is that this club with Frei or Nana can't make the playoffs either, regardless of their age or contract value...or soap operas. Is that statement incorrect? Have we made the playoffs and I just didn't know it?


As for DD, I don't think it's a given that we wouldn't have been better off without him. We love him because of the iconic nature of his accomplishments with the club, and his character. Could his salary have been better spent somewhere else? It's entirely possible.

Again, I am not talking about contract values. That's a red herring Scott.


Pointing to DeRo's past accomplishments isn't in itself a counter-argument. Especially when we are talking about an aging player who apparently won't be happy here unless he is making DP money. Could a DP salary/slot be better spent on someone besides the guy we already have under contract, who has never made DP money? It's also entirely possible.

I absolutely disagree with this statement 100%. Pointing to DeRo's past accomplishments is not a counter-argument if the point being debated is whether to give him DP, or whether to re-sign him etc. However, when countering an accusation that the team "did not make the playoffs" with him, then it is an absolutely valid argument to point to the fact that every other year in his career he has made the playoffs and thus eliminate the contention that somehow his being a part of this team is inherent to the team's inability to make the playoffs.


I also think DeRo owes some of his past success, like pretty much every player, to being a part of good teams.

Absolutely! And thus would it not make sense then to state that if his past success is largely due to him being a part of a good team, then the fact that he has not had success in Toronto has less to do with him and more to do with the fact that he is a part of a bad team? With that statement alone we eliminate the value of the contention that us missing the playoffs falls on him.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 09:52 AM
Nana, Dichio, and Frei have never publicly complained


But Nana and Frei are at the beginning of their careers (Frei was still Gen Addidas and not in a position to complain). They are playing instead for the promise of larger contracts elsewhere, not at TFC.

Dichio had already made his money overseas and was looking for another challenge, a change of lifestyle and to extend his career a little. It was shameful that the management embarrassed him and didn't use him well on the field at the end. But it wasn't like he could have gone elsewhere at that point. He was pushed into retirement a touch early. What pricks TFC management have been at times. Difficult to have been supporting these dubious characters.


Sorry to do this to those tired of hearing it but...

These are strawman arguments. For those who need to know a strawman argument is:



To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0)


My position has nothing to do with soap operas or what a great signing Danny was regardless of his age. Did we or did we not make the playoffs WITH these players on the squad? That is the only question here and if you want to refute my point, your counter-argument needs to address this particular contention, otherwise you are refuting points I have not brought up.

Pookie
01-05-2011, 10:19 AM
I absolutely disagree with this statement 100%. Pointing to DeRo's past accomplishments is not a counter-argument if the point being debated is whether to give him DP, or whether to re-sign him etc. However, when countering an accusation that the team "did not make the playoffs" with him, then it is an absolutely valid argument to point to the fact that every other year in his career he has made the playoffs and thus eliminate the contention that somehow his being a part of this team is inherent to the team's inability to make the playoffs.


While this is going down a no win road, there is a funny element to this correlation you are trying to draw.

When he played in San Jose, he scored at a rate of 0.25 goals per game.

When he played in Houston, he scored at a rate of 0.307 goals per game.

He also was a part of a team that made the playoffs in each of those seasons.

With me so far?

Folks in Toronto are putting forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play has negatively impacted the team's success.

For his career in Toronto, he has scored at a rate of 0.472 goals per game. His most recent season, the one filled with discontent, saw him score at a rate of 0.556.

So, in the year's in which his individual (arguably selfish) style of play has resulted in him nearly doubling his per game goal production, his team has missed the playoffs in each of those campaigns.

Does this stand up to the test of standard deviation and statistical analysis? Probably not but interesting nonetheless.

reggie
01-05-2011, 10:21 AM
too much time on your hands??

Beach_Red
01-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Nana and Frei make peanuts compared to DeRo, and are way younger than him. They also haven't propagated soap operas about their contracts.

- Scott

This is a good point. It speaks a little bit to the future of MLS and where the league is going. DeRo spent most of his career in MLS so how he's treated will be a real sign to younger guys about the league, and their future in it.

Screwing up DeRo's trial with a European team (and refusing to move him up to DP status) might be sending a message to these young guys that they should get out sooner rather then later. But isn't MLS hoping to grow to the point that someday it can keep these kinds of players through the heart of their careers?

Anyway, again, TFC seems to have learned from this and finally brought some professional structure to its management. They have a bit of a hole to dig out of, reputation-wise, but that shouldn't take loo long.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 10:24 AM
While this is going down a no win road, there is a funny element to this correlation you are trying to draw.

When he played in San Jose, he scored at a rate of 0.25 goals per game.

When he played in Houston, he scored at a rate of 0.307 goals per game.

He also was a part of a team that made the playoffs in each of those seasons.

With me so far?

Folks in Toronto are putting forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play has negatively impacted the team's success.

For his career in Toronto, he has scored at a rate of 0.472 goals per game. His most recent season, the one filled with discontent, saw him score at a rate of 0.556.

So, in the year's in which his individual (arguably selfish) style of play has resulted in him nearly doubling his per game goal production, his team has missed the playoffs in each of those campaigns.

Does this stand up to the test of standard deviation and statistical analysis? Probably not but interesting nonetheless.

I don't think anyone will argue that it's not better for the team that he scores less so long as others are scoring.

Those scoring ratios (at San Jose and Houston) make sense for someone who is not a striker. In an ideal world, your striker should have the highest scoring ratio, not a midfielder.

I would submit that DeRo having the highest scoring ratio on the team only highlights the way this team was poorly built, not that there is a problem (on the pitch) with the player.

scooter
01-05-2011, 10:29 AM
You've GROSSLY overestimated his contributions man. He scored a bunch of goals....absolutely. But his style of play took a lot away from the team playing as a TEAM.

And yes...Montreal was absolutely a one off. Unless you think DeRo is going to score like that against a team that actually cares to win. Cause he won't.

Let me ask you something:

How many players in this league (or any league for that matter) will attempt full volleys from 40 yards when there are other options available to them?

It's a sign of his on field character. He's a me-first, team second guy when he's out there. I've said it almost from day one. Watching him play, game in and game out, showed that he was not willing to share the ball when the situation called for it. He took ill advised attempts on goal and he rarely played in any kind of discernible position....making it harder for his already unskilled teammates to find him/feed him/support him.

I know it sounds ridiculous...but I've gotten to the point where I feel that all he brings is goals. I know that's a lot....but it's not even close to the only thing needed for a TEAM to be successful....as is evidenced by our record the last couple years.

TFC have been shit for a long time now (since inception). The last 2 years with DeRo are no exception.

I refuse to believe that he has nothing to do with TFC's futility. He's a part of the problem. Not the solution.

for one so young you are all seeing grasshopper

trane
01-05-2011, 10:37 AM
The thing with scoring rate is that there are two ways to measure it, both wich are important. I prefer to judge a striker by simply goals per game, as at the end of the day, if he is creating chances that in itself is a positive, even if he is not finishing a high amount of these chances. However, I would argue that a great striker has a great goals to shot ratio, as in good leagues chances are few and far between, and you need to capitalize.

In De Ro's case last year, while I would say he was our best player on the pitch and you cannot ask much more for an AM in terms of goals then what he did, his shots per goal ratio indicated a real problem in our attack, as he took to much time shooting and not creating. If he would pass the ball he would be a great AM, as his threat of scroing would create more space and chances for the strikers that he playes with, as defenders move to take away his spave, instead by taking so many shots himself he made out offense too one dimensional. However, this is not just De Ro's problem, this is a problem that needed to be address by the staff, and a failing of the players around him, as well as a failure to soround him with the proper players. THis is why I was always for Gerba, as he left alone, and not having this worry that this poaching striker did not run, neither does Inzaghi, could have benefited for De Ro and vice versa, as they did for the National team.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 10:39 AM
This is a good point. It speaks a little bit to the future of MLS and where the league is going. DeRo spent most of his career in MLS so how he's treated will be a real sign to younger guys about the league, and their future in it.

Screwing up DeRo's trial with a European team (and refusing to move him up to DP status) might be sending a message to these young guys that they should get out sooner rather then later. But isn't MLS hoping to grow to the point that someday it can keep these kinds of players through the heart of their careers?

Anyway, again, TFC seems to have learned from this and finally brought some professional structure to its management. They have a bit of a hole to dig out of, reputation-wise, but that shouldn't take loo long.


This is absolutely an important point. I was speaking to a player agent (not DeRo's) and he was telling me that they were watching the DeRo situation closely in order to determine the best course for their own clients. If TFC shows a willingness to facilitate moves to Europe then staying at TFC is not a bad career move because you can earn a living while developing your craft. However, if TFC shows a lack of willingness to be a partner in this endeavour, then they have to structure contracts to ease movement away from TFC with or without their wish to do so.

Also, many agents have been watching developments in order to learn whether TFC is willing to pay players or not. They don't take JDG or Mista as any type of example to lean on because Mo is no longer here and these signings are universally looked at as mistakes. And regardless if an agent feels whether DeRo is worth the money he is asking for (I am getting mixed messages from them on this as well not surprisingly) how Toronto FC treat their top goal scorer who is from Canada itself weighs heavily on how Toronto will be perceived.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 10:40 AM
The thing with scoring rate is that there are two ways to measure it, both wich are important. I prefer to judge a striker by simply goals per game, as at the end of the day, if he is creating chances that in itself is a positive, even if he is not finishing a high amount of these chances. However, I would argue that a great striker has a great goals to shot ratio, as in good leagues chances are few and far between, and you need to capitalize.

In De Ro's case last year, while I would say he was our best player on the pitch and you cannot ask much more for an AM in terms of goals then what he did, his shots per goal ratio indicated a real problem in our attack, as he took to much time shooting and not creating. If he would pass the ball he would be a great AM, as his threat of scroing would create more space and chances for the strikers that he playes with, as defenders move to take away his spave, instead by taking so many shots himself he made out offense too one dimensional. However, this is not just De Ro's problem, this is a problem that needed to be address by the staff, and a failing of the players around him, as well as a failure to soround him with the proper players. THis is why I was always for Gerba, as he left alone, and not having this worry that this pouching striker did not run, neither does Inzaghi, could have benefited for De Ro and vice versa, as they did for the National team.


This is exactly how I feel. It is also why I was so upset in Gerba leaving. I think we could have had a more balanced attack which in and of itself would have led to better results.

manic.street.preacher
01-05-2011, 10:50 AM
i'm always late to the party in pretty much every thread and by the time i've gone through it all, i often find myself ready to multi-quote Shakes/Scott and just agree with him ... i've developed such a huge amount of apathy towards this whole Dero saga, (heck, towards TFC in general) i just want it to end. if he takes off to Europe, i wish him all the best. if he sticks around, i hope he'll continue to work hard and learn to play with whoever's on the pitch with him.

ManUtd4ever
01-05-2011, 10:58 AM
While this is going down a no win road, there is a funny element to this correlation you are trying to draw.

When he played in San Jose, he scored at a rate of 0.25 goals per game.

When he played in Houston, he scored at a rate of 0.307 goals per game.

He also was a part of a team that made the playoffs in each of those seasons.

With me so far?

Folks in Toronto are putting forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play has negatively impacted the team's success.

For his career in Toronto, he has scored at a rate of 0.472 goals per game. His most recent season, the one filled with discontent, saw him score at a rate of 0.556.

So, in the year's in which his individual (arguably selfish) style of play has resulted in him nearly doubling his per game goal production, his team has missed the playoffs in each of those campaigns.

Does this stand up to the test of standard deviation and statistical analysis? Probably not but interesting nonetheless.

In my opinion, these statistics speak for themselves. DeRo was known for his ability as a playmaker as well as a scorer in an attacking midfield role earlier in his career with San Jose and Houston. The difference in Toronto was the lack of a talented supporting cast which propelled him to become a more selfish player and have 2 career goal scoring seasons in the process.

If DeRo is unable to earn a contract with Celtic or any other European club this off season that will pay him the money he so desperately covets, I hope the new management regime will come to an amicable resolution with DeRo that will see him return to the club and honor his contract with the proper mindset. I'm not sure if that would be a realistic option at this point, but considering that he would be unlikely to negotiate a DP contract elsewhere in MLS, I hope DeRo would be able to come to terms with the reality of the situation and finish his career in Toronto for the same amount of money he would have earned elsewhere...

bgnewf
01-05-2011, 11:11 AM
DeRo had a lot of choices.

He could have chosen to keep his apparent issues with his salary out of the public yet he decided to not do so.

He could have chosen to not embarrass the club and become a public distraction by choosing to not "write the cheque" and kept his grievances private.

He could have chosen to not go to Glasgow until the paperwork was at the "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed stage yet he went anyways.

The club has had issues with which to publicly criticize DeRo yet they have for the most part taken the high road. I can't say that about DeRo.

And he is not the popular player among his teammates that he might think he is. He was without a doubt our best player last season. Yet with that in mind his own teammates, teammates he is supposed to be the leader of, choose Adrian Cann as their MVP instead.

DeRo might have issues with TFC, and many/most of them might even be valid. But he needs to man up and take some ownership for his own mistakes as well.

He thinks he is bigger than the badge.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 11:17 AM
DeRo had a lot of choices.

He could have chosen to keep his apparent issues with his salary out of the public yet he decided to not do so.

He could have chosen to not embarrass the club and become a public distraction by choosing to not "write the cheque" and kept his grievances private.

He could have chosen to not go to Glasgow until the paperwork was at the "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed stage yet he went anyways.

The club has had issues with which to publicly criticize DeRo yet they have for the most part taken the high road. I can't say that about DeRo.

And he is not the popular player among his teammates that he might think he is. He was without a doubt our best player last season. Yet with that in mind his own teammates, teammates he is supposed to be the leader of, choose Adrian Cann as their MVP instead.

DeRo might have issues with TFC, and many/most of them might even be valid. But he needs to man up and take some ownership for his own mistakes as well.

He thinks he is bigger than the badge.


I have no problems with any of what you said right up until the end.

I think the big problem is that those of us on the "fan" side believe players care as much as we do about the badge. Neither DeRo, nor Frei or Garcia nor anyone else cares about the "badge" as much as we do. So this concept of thinking they are "bigger than the badge" really boils down to whether they care more about the badge than they do their own self interests, and the answer to that question is wholeheartely no player anywhere does.

trane
01-05-2011, 11:17 AM
This is exactly how I feel. It is also why I was so upset in Gerba leaving. I think we could have had a more balanced attack which in and of itself would have led to better results.

Agreed. Preki could have made us better defensively from the previous season, and with a better offence we could have made the playoffs. Instead in ended up being the same old same old.

trane
01-05-2011, 11:19 AM
I have no problems with any of what you said right up until the end.

I think the big problem is that those of us on the "fan" side believe players care as much as we do about the badge. Neither DeRo, nor Frei or Garcia nor anyone else cares about the "badge" as much as we do. So this concept of thinking they are "bigger than the badge" really boils down to whether they care more about the badge than they do their own self interests, and the answer to that question is wholeheartely no player anywhere does.

Nor shuold they, as no club gives any player that kind of loyalty. Kaka is a great example great player committed to the club, and yet the club was more then willing to sell him for the right price. So why would a player not be willing to move for the right price and the right situation?

jabbronies
01-05-2011, 11:24 AM
While this is going down a no win road, there is a funny element to this correlation you are trying to draw.

When he played in San Jose, he scored at a rate of 0.25 goals per game.

When he played in Houston, he scored at a rate of 0.307 goals per game.

He also was a part of a team that made the playoffs in each of those seasons.

With me so far?

Folks in Toronto are putting forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play has negatively impacted the team's success.

For his career in Toronto, he has scored at a rate of 0.472 goals per game. His most recent season, the one filled with discontent, saw him score at a rate of 0.556.

So, in the year's in which his individual (arguably selfish) style of play has resulted in him nearly doubling his per game goal production, his team has missed the playoffs in each of those campaigns.

Does this stand up to the test of standard deviation and statistical analysis? Probably not but interesting nonetheless.


Lets not forget to add that at both of those teams Dero was supporting player to the likes of Brian Ching, Landon Donavan and he also had multiple guys on each team who knew how to score like Alejandro Moreno, Joseph Ngwenya, Ronald Cerritos. So of course his goals per game rate will go down with these other guys just as capable of scoring.

I put forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play doesn't help the players around him and I stand by that 100%. A lot of it is due to his style of play on the pitch. He's the type of player that would rather run around 5 guys by himself as oppose to run past 1 and pass through 4 to get the same result. If someone were to run the stats on the TFC players around him, I'm sure a conclusion can be drawn that his lack of play making with others on the pitch is making a negative impact on the team.

I'm not knocking his skill, it's just that he is not a leader. plain and simple, and his style of play is what dictates that. That is why those other championship teams looked to other players for leadership and that is what TFC needs to do IMO.

KEEP DERO, just get someone else to lead the team.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Nor shuold they, as no club gives any player that kind of loyalty. Kaka is a great example great player committed to the club, and yet the club was more then willing to sell him for the right price. So why would a player not be willing to move for the right price and the right situation?


I've repeated this many times over the past couple of weeks. There is no loyalty in football anymore (if there ever really was)...from either side, period. No loyalty from the club. No loyalty from the players. The sooner the fans realize this, the sooner everyone is better off.

The only loyalty that still exists today is from the supporters. And even then, it's not like it used to be. There are so many fairweather fans these days it's more often the case than not.

TFC showed us how much "loyalty" they had to us fans this offseason. And we're surprised when a player plays the same game to them? Come on. Let's not be so naive.

Roogsy
01-05-2011, 11:26 AM
Lets not forget to add that at both of those teams Dero was supporting player to the likes of Brian Ching, Landon Donavan and he also had multiple guys on each team who knew how to score like Alejandro Moreno, Joseph Ngwenya, Ronald Cerritos. So of course his goals per game rate will go down with these other guys just as capable of scoring.

I put forward the hypothesis that Dwayne's selfish play doesn't help the players around him and I stand by that 100%. A lot of it is due to his style of play on the pitch. He's the type of player that would rather run around 5 guys by himself as oppose to run past 1 and pass through 4 to get the same result. If someone were to run the stats on the TFC players around him, I'm sure a conclusion can be drawn that his lack of play making with others on the pitch is making a negative impact on the team.

I'm not knocking his skill, it's just that he is not a leader. plain and simple, and his style of play is what dictates that. That is why those other championship teams looked to other players for leadership and that is what TFC needs to do IMO.

KEEP DERO, just get someone else to lead the team.


I don't disagree with this.

I guess the question then needs to be asked, when DeRo was brought in, what was he brought in to do? Was he brought in to be the captain? Was that the intention? Or was the intention something else?

Pookie
01-05-2011, 11:36 AM
KEEP DERO, just get someone else to lead the team.

I don't disagree with that either. But the choice to keep him has already been made by the club by way of their contract with him.

HE is the one who is suggesting that the choice to stay, under his current terms, isn't acceptable.

Under new terms that include a DP tag and/or a longer term, I wish him well on his new endeavours.

manic.street.preacher
01-05-2011, 11:47 AM
I've repeated this many times over the past couple of weeks. There is no loyalty in football anymore (if there ever really was)...from either side, period. No loyalty from the club. No loyalty from the players. The sooner the fans realize this, the sooner everyone is better off.

The only loyalty that still exists today is from the supporters. And even then, it's not like it used to be. There are so many fairweather fans these days it's more often the case than not.

TFC showed us how much "loyalty" they had to us fans this offseason. And we're surprised when a player plays the same game to them? Come on. Let's not be so naive.
^this. never were truer words spoken. or sadder ... it's the most depressing thing about sports

jabbronies
01-05-2011, 11:55 AM
I don't disagree with this.

I guess the question then needs to be asked, when DeRo was brought in, what was he brought in to do? Was he brought in to be the captain? Was that the intention? Or was the intention something else?

I think the intention by the team was purely from a marketing stand point. To have him be the "franchise" player. The hometown hero, face of the team who's roots trace back to Toronto.

I'm sure the term "Leader of the team" was mentioned as well, but I don't think those involved in bringing him here really gave it any thought as to what that meant on the field.

Suds
01-05-2011, 12:23 PM
I look forward to DeRo kneeling for the first minute of the home opener :D

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Like too many other clubs, financial troubles plague Spanish third-division side Pontevedra. The club's players haven't been paid in five months, so during a match against Lugo, they decided to draw attention to their plight by kneeling down and refusing to play for the first minute of the match. Clearly feeling a bit awkward about the situation, Lugo just passed the ball around among themselves until their opponents decided to get up and play. And then they beat Pontevedra 3-2.

trane
01-05-2011, 12:45 PM
^ Lugo did the right thing, what were the supposed to do take march down the field and score two quick ones? If Mou was managing he would demand it.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2011, 07:28 PM
I've repeated this many times over the past couple of weeks. There is no loyalty in football anymore (if there ever really was)...from either side, period. No loyalty from the club. No loyalty from the players. The sooner the fans realize this, the sooner everyone is better off.

I agree with this statement, but don't see how it applies here. TFC haven't been "unloyal" to Dwayne De Rosario. They have honoured the terms of their contract with him, gave him the captaincy after one year with the club, and haven't tried to pressure him into any trades or transfers. They are holding up their end of the bargain.

[EDIT: I had a lot more written after this, but forget it. These discussions about DeRo are utterly draining, and I'm confident that most people here see this drama the same way I do.]

- Scott

Batman
01-05-2011, 07:35 PM
I agree with this statement, but don't see how it applies here. TFC haven't been "unloyal" to Dwayne De Rosario. They have honoured the terms of their contract with him, gave him the captaincy after one year with the club, and haven't tried to pressure him into any trades or transfers. They are holding up their end of the bargain.

[EDIT: I had a lot more written after this, but forget it. These discussions about DeRo are utterly draining, and I'm confident that most people here see this drama the same way I do.]

- Scott

I'M COMPLETELY IN AGREEMENT.

I hate it when players want to renegotiate after a decent year.
They're pretty damned quiet after a bad year. Yet you never hear the team saying "let's redo this, cause you sucked"

Basically, sign a contract that you can stick with, and be happy with for IT'S ENTIRE duration. If you can't, sign for a shorter duration. Period.

FluSH
01-05-2011, 08:44 PM
I could care less about how many goals he scored. Dero is a cancer. Simple as that.

/end this thread.

ag futbol
01-05-2011, 09:47 PM
So, in the year's in which his individual (arguably selfish) style of play has resulted in him nearly doubling his per game goal production, his team has missed the playoffs in each of those campaigns.

Does this stand up to the test of standard deviation and statistical analysis? Probably not but interesting nonetheless.
Really? did we all forget how bad this team was across the board? I don't think what you're seeing is selfishness, it's the lack of anyone else being able to do the job.

I challenge anybody to name one damn player in this league that would have foreseeably taken Dero's place and lead this shipwreck to the playoffs. Landon Donovan? I think that's the end of the list and it'd still be pretty questionable if that would be enough.

I get it, you don't like his attitude and the way he's handled contract negotiations, but his record on the field has been pretty damn solid.

Pookie
01-05-2011, 10:13 PM
I challenge anybody to name one damn player in this league that would have foreseeably taken Dero's place and lead this shipwreck to the playoffs. Landon Donovan? I think that's the end of the list and it'd still be pretty questionable if that would be enough.



But the challenge isn't to name 1 damn player to lead this shipwreck.

De Rosario earns $443k in a cap system.

That could be 4 players at $110k each. It could be 2 at $221(ish) or 1, $300k player and a younger $140k player. Or 3 players, or any other combination of players adding up to $443k.

The possibilities are endless.

Could 2-4, perhaps 5 new players make a difference?

We better damn well hope so because that is the proposition moving in 2011.

Batman
01-05-2011, 10:33 PM
Everything has been argued... all points have been made.

I suggest we close this and any other DeRo thread.

Once there is some NEWS about DeRo then open a new one.

ag futbol
01-06-2011, 09:36 AM
But the challenge isn't to name 1 damn player to lead this shipwreck.

De Rosario earns $443k in a cap system.

That could be 4 players at $110k each. It could be 2 at $221(ish) or 1, $300k player and a younger $140k player. Or 3 players, or any other combination of players adding up to $443k.

The possibilities are endless.

Could 2-4, perhaps 5 new players make a difference?

We better damn well hope so because that is the proposition moving in 2011.
Not exactly, we'll be replacing a large number of deadbeats as well. I agree with you it's likely he won't be back.

Anyway, if the argument is that you can't win with one guy holding down that kind of salary, I'd disagree. I think the vast majority of teams in this league fall have at least one guy holding down that kind of cap space.

When you have someone of his talent level i think you should be predisposed to hold on to him unless you have a very good idea what the alternatives are. I haven't heard anything thus far that would help me sleep at night. Sure we could find four guys @ 110k or two at 220 but i have very little faith those will work out. Even the good MLS teams occasionally strike out with their free agents.

With academy kids more than likely holding down the back end of the roster and lots of people moving out, I don't think finding cap space is the issue. The problem will be finding the right players to fill those spots.

BFin
01-06-2011, 09:58 AM
I could care less about how many goals he scored. Dero is a cancer. Simple as that.

/end this thread.

Bold, but I can't disagree. You've been spot on Flush.

reggie
01-06-2011, 10:17 AM
I could care less about how many goals he scored. Dero is a cancer. Simple as that.

/end this thread.

I wish people would not use the word cancer in relation to sports,i lost my wife to cancer and im sure alot of people have been effected by cancer.
this is just sport,egos and money.

Oldtimer
01-06-2011, 10:37 AM
I'm closing this. We'll continue discussion in the DeRo on Trial with Celtic thread:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1195248#post1195248