Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[ensco]

You can't expect the new management to stand behind a fired employee's verbal promise.

You are wrong about this. In general the business world does not work this way. TFC should be expected to honour every commitment Mo made.

I just don't believe Mo made a commitment that rose to the level of being binding on anyone, verbal or otherwise.

[Shakes McQueen]

You are wrong about this. Much of this business world works this way. TFC has to honour every commitment Mo made.

I just don't believe Mo made a commitment that rose to the level of being binding on anyone, verbal or otherwise.

Same. My point isn't that promises shouldn't be honoured - my point is that I think the whole whole idea of "promises" about his salary is farcical to begin with.

A GM might promise you a big role on the team, or that they are going to invest some money into the team, but no player would seriously accept verbal promises about their actual contract terms.

And they certainly wouldn't accept a promise to renegotiate their deal in a year or two, while simultaneously signing a contract that gives the TEAM two option years, not you. That's cognitive dissonance to the extreme.

- Scott

[ensco]

btw more bad news for Dero

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1344170/Norway-international-Erik-Huseklepp-set-latest-Viking-Celt-Parkhead.html?

[BFin]

You are wrong about this. In general the business world does not work this way. TFC should be expected to honour every commitment Mo made.

I just don't believe Mo made a commitment that rose to the level of being binding on anyone, verbal or otherwise.

No they should not. They should be expected to honour every contract that is on the books, in the same way players should be honouring every contract that is on the books.

How many times has a promotion been discussed with an employee, only to have their manager fired and a new one step in without the same idea. Does this person now HAVE to honour that previous discussion between manager and employee? Absolutely not. Both parties merely have to honour their contracts.

[Beach_Red]

^ It also depends a little on what other teams are doing. TFC has to compete with other teams for players so if every team is a 'letter of the law' operation, it's fine, but if other teams can use flexibility as a negotiating point - and have some history of it to show - it could hurt TFC in recruitment. And with agents who will be making deals for many players. Your point about a manager and employee is valid, but these are employees who move around a lot and only work (at this job) for a short time and have agents. It makes for quite a different kind of 'discussion' about promotion.

[Chevy]

btw more bad news for Dero

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1344170/Norway-international-Erik-Huseklepp-set-latest-Viking-Celt-Parkhead.html?

In addition to this dude, there are also a few other wingers in camp. Reports also suggest that Celtic will offer a contract to Samaras, who was rumoured to be on his way out of town.

[Pookie]

Bad news for him or for us?

Let's hope that Winter/Mariner know San Jose's phone number.

[TFC The Hague]

Let's face it: there's absolutely NO WAY Celtic will sign DeRo. I guess he must've begged them to be able to come on trial with them. The Celtic staff thought: "DeWho???? Well, what the heck, come over, train a bit and have a good time". And after the week he'll receive a nice thank you, a signed photo of the squad and a hand shake (and if he's lucky, a wink) from the Celtic manager. The next day, he'll be one of the thousands of triallists Celtic ever had. DeRo will touch down in Toronto and boast about 'having been only THIS close to signing with one of Europe's most awesome teams'. And if he won't say it, his manager will.

End of the tale is Aron Winter telling him exactly how the Dutch soccer system works, with DeRo taking notes.

DeRo: 'And what about my free role and captaincy, coach?'
Winter: 'First, prove you can play in the no.10 position and show me you're a real leader again. I know your reputation, but the team comes first. Period.'

[Roogsy]

I think everybody would be surprised if Celtic signed DeRo. To be honest, I don't think that was ever the intention.

[J .]

btw more bad news for Dero

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1344170/Norway-international-Erik-Huseklepp-set-latest-Viking-Celt-Parkhead.html?

He is going to replace Samaras who I believe is leaving.

[BFin]

^ It also depends a little on what other teams are doing. TFC has to compete with other teams for players so if every team is a 'letter of the law' operation, it's fine, but if other teams can use flexibility as a negotiating point - and have some history of it to show - it could hurt TFC in recruitment. And with agents who will be making deals for many players. Your point about a manager and employee is valid, but these are employees who move around a lot and only work (at this job) for a short time and have agents. It makes for quite a different kind of 'discussion' about promotion.

I'd disagree with this. An athletes time span in a specific role with a specific team can last on average what? 1-2 years? I think they are very similar if we are speaking about movement.

Promotion = Pay Raise in this instance...since I doubt they offered DeRo a player/coach role. I think the discussion is very similar.

I think both parties actions look poor in this instance. The agent is an idiot for agreeing to the deal, DeRo is an idiot for signing the deal with a verbal agreement, Mo is an idiot for deceiving a guy he just traded for, and DeRo is an idiot for this Celtic fiasco. I don't think agents should base their opinions of TFC in the future on any of the events I have just noted.

[Beach_Red]

^ Well, what agents should do and what they do aren't always the same things ;).

But we really don't have enough information of the backroom deals that went on here - and go on all the time between agents and management (not just in sports). Someone floated the rumour here that there was a kickback for some of Mista's money and that's not a crazy allegation.

Right now it looks like MLSE wasn't completely on top of TFC and the kind of reputation they were building for themselves (which, as Ensco pointed out, is similar to the teachers not being completely on top of MLSE, just like they weren't completely on top of CTV) and now it's like they finally noticed what their little team was up to and have made some corrections.

[Roogsy]

^ This...

[Kooper]

I think everybody would be surprised if Celtic signed DeRo. To be honest, I don't think that was ever the intention.

Then what the fuck was the point of all this? Piss off his fans? Annoy the team? Force the team's hand? A vanity project?

I really hope he honestly went there for a trial with the hope of a loan or permanent move. If not what little respect I had left for Dero has vanished.

[Roogsy]

Oh the hope was always there. I am sure DeRo would be ecstatic with an offer from Celtic. But I don't think he honestly thought there was a high probability of it happening either.

Whatever his intentions, really your respect for him should come down to two things. Does he play hard for TFC when he is here and does he do things to respect his club, teammates and fans. The first question is undeniable. I think the anger felt towards him comes down to the 2nd point where people feel he has disrespected the club. I suppose it all comes down to the facts in the case.

[BFin]

^ Well, what agents should do and what they do aren't always the same things ;).

But we really don't have enough information of the backroom deals that went on here - and go on all the time between agents and management (not just in sports). Someone floated the rumour here that there was a kickback for some of Mista's money and that's not a crazy allegation.

Right now it looks like MLSE wasn't completely on top of TFC and the kind of reputation they were building for themselves (which, as Ensco pointed out, is similar to the teachers not being completely on top of MLSE, just like they weren't completely on top of CTV) and now it's like they finally noticed what their little team was up to and have made some corrections.

So what you're telling me is the CEO over at Comcast knows exactly what's going on with the Flyers and 76'ers at all times?

Teachers are very much on top of MLSE. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case should check their balance sheets. They've taken MLSE to astronomical financial success, which if you remember, is what an investment firm is supposed to do.

Laying the blame on teachers, MLSe etc. is getting tired for me. I highly doubt that an MLSe exec. should have been at the table during the contract negotiations, so lets stop trying to place the blame on them.

All allegations, and backroom dealings aside...if you sign a contract, be a man and own up to it. Play it out, or shut your mouth and retire. Period. We as fans should not have to put up with this bullshit from a terrible team, with a captain that appears to care less.

[Pookie]

I think everybody would be surprised if Celtic signed DeRo. To be honest, I don't think that was ever the intention.

Ok, I'll bite. What was the intention?

- prove that outside of MLS, there is limited to no interest in him and somehow parlay that into a raise?

- run his rep into the ground and force his way out of Toronto while damaging his future potential of "DeRo Entertainment"?

- feel grass under his toes for a week?

[Roogsy]

Teachers are very much on top of MLSE. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case should check their balance sheets. They've taken MLSE to astronomical financial success, which if you remember, is what an investment firm is supposed to do.

Teachers is not an investment firm and I don't think you will find many people that agree that they are on top of MLSE. They are on top of financial figures but certianly not the operations.


All allegations, and backroom dealings aside...if you sign a contract, be a man and own up to it. Play it out, or shut your mouth and retire. Period. We as fans should not have to put up with this bullshit from a terrible team, with a captain that appears to care less.

Ridiculous. You're acting like DeRo's the only player to ever want a renegotiation. I agree that if given no other option he should play it out, but he hasn't indicated otherwise and it's certainly within his rights to leverage his play for a better contract if one is available. It happens all the time, not just in sports. Shit...I did it myself. It has nothing to do with being a "man". It has to do with smart business. And this is all business which is what everyone here is forgetting. Do you think in the backrooms where this is playing out the issue of DeRo being a "captain" has any relevancy? Not even a little.

[BFin]

Teachers is not an investment firm and I don't think you will find many people that agree that they are on top of MLSE. They are on top of financial figures but certianly not the operations.



Ridiculous. You're acting like DeRo's the only player to ever want a renegotiation. I agree that if given no other option he should play it out, but he hasn't indicated otherwise and it's certainly within his rights to leverage his play for a better contract if one is available. It happens all the time, not just in sports. Shit...I did it myself. It has nothing to do with being a "man". It has to do with smart business. And this is all business which is what everyone here is forgetting. Do you think in the backrooms where this is playing out the issue of DeRo being a "captain" has any relevancy? Not even a little.

Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan is an investment fund Roogsy. Here is their main website in which the main blurb on the company states that fact.
http://www.otpp.com/wps/wcm/connect/otpp_en/home

Let me address the second paragraph in parts:
- Find me a player on a non-playoff team who is making a salary above his peers who performed at a similar level, and demanded a re-negotiation by training with another team and I will agree. These circumstances are vastly different from someone winning the scoring title, making it to the NBA finals, and saying I deserve a bit more. Also, they aren't demanding one of your designated player slots.
- I agree that he should play it out with no other options.
- It does have to do with being a man. Smart business would be having a written clause. If you wanted smart business, don't sign a contract that you wont like in a year and negotiate yourself a better one.
- I think being a captain does have something to do with it. Maybe not for Dero's camp, or Anselmi, but how do the other players on the team look upon this situation when their captain is trialing with other clubs against the teams wishes? Sets a horrific precedent and sets us up for further 'locker room' issues.

I know I wont sway you, and that's cool...just wanted to state my opinion.

[Roogsy]

Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan is an investment fund Roogsy. Here is their main website in which the main blurb on the company states that fact.
http://www.otpp.com/wps/wcm/connect/otpp_en/home

Investment fund and investment firm are two different things. I know to an outsider it may be splitting hairs but to an insider it's night and day.


Let me address the second paragraph in parts:
- Find me a player on a non-playoff team who is making a salary above his peers who performed at a similar level, and demanded a re-negotiation by training with another team and I will agree. These circumstances are vastly different from someone winning the scoring title, making it to the NBA finals, and saying I deserve a bit more. Also, they aren't demanding one of your designated player slots.

Circumstances are irrelevant. Contracts are contracts. If a contract can be renegotiated in one circumstance, they can be renegotiated in another. The fundamental point is whether a contract can be renegotiated, which history has shown us it can. Teams individually decide when they want to do so.


- I agree that he should play it out with no other options.
- It does have to do with being a man. Smart business would be having a written clause. If you wanted smart business, don't sign a contract that you wont like in a year and negotiate yourself a better one.

I assume DeRo has a new agent because his previous one screwed the pooch. However, smart business is not only about writing in a clause for every unforeseeable circumstance. It also includes managing current conditions to suit you and leveraging performance for improved compensation. That is what he is doing here. It is still "smart business".


- I think being a captain does have something to do with it. Maybe not for Dero's camp, or Anselmi, but how do the other players on the team look upon this situation when their captain is trialing with other clubs against the teams wishes? Sets a horrific precedent and sets us up for further 'locker room' issues.

It's only relevant from a team cohesion/relationship point of view, which is not TFC's financial executive's concern nor DeRo's agent. They are dealing with legal terminology and dollars and cents and so the whole "captain" issue is not relevant from a contract point of view. Of course, as fans, that's something WE consider important. It doesn't mean it is to them on this particular issue.

[Kooper]

Does he play hard for TFC when he is here?
Yes



Does he do things to respect his club, teammates and fans?

I would say yes until the cheque signing stunt. Since then the opinion of this board seems to be a resounding no.

[TFCRegina]

Teachers is not an investment firm and I don't think you will find many people that agree that they are on top of MLSE. They are on top of financial figures but certianly not the operations.



Ridiculous. You're acting like DeRo's the only player to ever want a renegotiation. I agree that if given no other option he should play it out, but he hasn't indicated otherwise and it's certainly within his rights to leverage his play for a better contract if one is available. It happens all the time, not just in sports. Shit...I did it myself. It has nothing to do with being a "man". It has to do with smart business. And this is all business which is what everyone here is forgetting. Do you think in the backrooms where this is playing out the issue of DeRo being a "captain" has any relevancy? Not even a little.

Not only that, anyone who says De Ro should honour his contract is a hypocrite if they've ever asked for a payraise at work. You sign a contract to work at a set rate. Honour it.

Or anyone who has ever gone on strike to get a new CBA is a hypocrite as well.

Start considering athletes like normal labourers and you'll see they're treated worse than the average worker in the western world.

[Roogsy]

Not only that, anyone who says De Ro should honour his contract is a hypocrite if they've ever asked for a payraise at work. You sign a contract to work at a set rate. Honour it.

Or anyone who has ever gone on strike to get a new CBA is a hypocrite as well.

Start considering athletes like normal labourers and you'll see they're treated worse than the average worker in the western world.

The whole "honour the contract" issue is a little humourous to me on a personal level since I regularly see contracts get ripped up in favour of new ones, including my own. Contracts are nothing more than agreements that can be changed with new agreements if both sides are willing. They're not laws set in stone written by the hand of God.

[Section 117]

Not only that, anyone who says De Ro should honour his contract is a hypocrite if they've ever asked for a payraise at work. You sign a contract to work at a set rate. Honour it.

Or anyone who has ever gone on strike to get a new CBA is a hypocrite as well.

Start considering athletes like normal labourers and you'll see they're treated worse than the average worker in the western world.


Really? I get raises based on the performance of my company as a whole, not on as an individual.... So on this instance he doesn't deserve a raise as the team was poor.

So based on what you are saying we should feel sorry for him? Just because HE thinks he is worth more doesn't mean that he is. I can go to my boss right now and say double my salary cause I think I am worth it, you know what is going to happen next a big fat "NO"

Another thing let's say TFC decides to give him a raise to a million dollars, the moment his production slips is he going to give money back? I don't think so. If Dero was in the last year of his contract no problem on him leaving for trial, but at the end of the day blame the agent who got you the deal. I would love to know what the guys on the team really think of Dero and his antics as if it polarizes the fans imagine what it does to the squad.

[Chevy]

I think everybody would be surprised if Celtic signed DeRo. To be honest, I don't think that was ever the intention.


http://chicksontheright.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/backpedaling.gif

[TFCRegina]

Really? I get raises based on the performance of my company as a whole, not on as an individual.... So on this instance he doesn't deserve a raise as the team was poor.

So based on what you are saying we should feel sorry for him? Just because HE thinks he is worth more doesn't mean that he is. I can go to my boss right now and say double my salary cause I think I am worth it, you know what is going to happen next a big fat "NO"

Another thing let's say TFC decides to give him a raise to a million dollars, the moment his production slips is he going to give money back? I don't think so. If Dero was in the last year of his contract no problem on him leaving for trial, but at the end of the day blame the agent who got you the deal. I would love to know what the guys on the team really think of Dero and his antics as if it polarizes the fans imagine what it does to the squad.

That's unfortunate then, because you're not being paid what you're worth. Each individual labourer should be paid according to their contribution to the company. I can assure you that's how the majority of the world works and I've seen first hand people get pay raises because of their individual achievements within an organization. If you're not being paid according to your productivity, you should probably seek another job and try to leverage a pay raise out of them.

Again, consider De Rosario as an average worker in a factory. Let's say he produces 14 widgets a year, and everyone else produces an average of 4 widgets a year. Should De Rosario not be paid more for his production of widgets?

[Roogsy]

Really? I get raises based on the performance of my company as a whole, not on as an individual.... So on this instance he doesn't deserve a raise as the team was poor.


Most definitely not how performance based industries work like the one I am in. I think the saddest example of that was 2 years ago when financial companies were going under and many were posting massive losses...do you think bonuses were not paid out that year? They were...at least to executives and company professionals like traders and salespeople. The little guy however did not get his "bonus". It's the unfortunate part of the industry I work in. The little guy always suffers.

[Pachuco]

Really? I get raises based on the performance of my company as a whole, not on as an individual.... So on this instance he doesn't deserve a raise as the team was poor.

So based on what you are saying we should feel sorry for him? Just because HE thinks he is worth more doesn't mean that he is. I can go to my boss right now and say double my salary cause I think I am worth it, you know what is going to happen next a big fat "NO"

Another thing let's say TFC decides to give him a raise to a million dollars, the moment his production slips is he going to give money back? I don't think so. If Dero was in the last year of his contract no problem on him leaving for trial, but at the end of the day blame the agent who got you the deal. I would love to know what the guys on the team really think of Dero and his antics as if it polarizes the fans imagine what it does to the squad.

I don't know what company you work for, but that's crazy. I'd be pretty pissed off if the slackers around me were getting raises because I was keeping the team afloat. So your company doesn't promote you as an individual at all? If the team does well everyone gets promoted?

[Beach_Red]

So what you're telling me is the CEO over at Comcast knows exactly what's going on with the Flyers and 76'ers at all times?

Teachers are very much on top of MLSE. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case should check their balance sheets. They've taken MLSE to astronomical financial success, which if you remember, is what an investment firm is supposed to do.



Except you'd have to compare their balance sheets to what they could be. Sure, they make a profit in a monopoly-protected market.

But they made changes to TFC's managemet structure because it wasn't working and there will likely be changes to MLSE's structure when it sells. The CTV sale isn't even finalized and they've already made changes at the top - and that company is also profitable (but just not profitable enough for its new owners). I worked on the show The Bridge, it was the top-rated Canadian show in its first season, #1 every week, and yet there's no season two. Could you imagine the fall-out if CBS or HBO couldn't get their act together enough to get their #1 show back for a second season? That's what I mean by not being on top of things. But it is changing and it will change more. This isn't blind MLSE-bashing, this is looking at what they've and what they're doing and wishing the changes were coming sooner. It's good that they sold all the season tickets and still made these changes, some people didn't even think that would happen.

[Roogsy]

I don't know what company you work for, but that's crazy. I'd be pretty pissed off if the slackers around me were getting raises because I was keeping the team afloat. So your company doesn't promote you as an individual at all? If the team does well everyone gets promoted?

Word...

My wife comes home with this exact frustration. She is such a diligent worker. So much so that they are always asking for her to come in, to work extra, to take on special projects etc.

But she gets paid the same as everyone else.

So what is she going to do? She is leaving her company. They lose the best worker they have because of their rigid pay structure that pays the good worker the same as the lazy worker. That's bad for the business as a whole because it leaves them with the lazy worker and allows them to lose their most productive worker.

[BFin]

All good points Roogs, we're getting into novel territory so I think it's best to just call it a difference of opinion.

You don't actually sign term contracts with an employer. It's an employment agreement. I will start thinking of athletes as normal labourers when they sign similar agreements to myself and the other working shlubs that waste their money watching them. DeRo has a contract for a set number of years at a set number of dollars. Based on team performance, and DeRo's performance compared to his peers (scorers in MLS) does not merit a raise.

[BFin]

That's unfortunate then, because you're not being paid what you're worth. Each individual labourer should be paid according to their contribution to the company. I can assure you that's how the majority of the world works and I've seen first hand people get pay raises because of their individual achievements within an organization. If you're not being paid according to your productivity, you should probably seek another job and try to leverage a pay raise out of them.

Again, consider De Rosario as an average worker in a factory. Let's say he produces 14 widgets a year, and everyone else produces an average of 4 widgets a year. Should De Rosario not be paid more for his production of widgets?

Lets say DeRo produces 14 widgets, and a guy at another company produces 17 for 1/10th of the salary...does DeRo deserve more?

DeRo's salary structure is not based on TFC alone, it is based on the league. In MLS, he does not deserve more relative to his peers.

[Roogsy]

All good points Roogs, we're getting into novel territory so I think it's best to just call it a difference of opinion.

You don't actually sign term contracts with an employer. It's an employment agreement. I will start thinking of athletes as normal labourers when they sign similar agreements to myself and the other working shlubs that waste their money watching them. DeRo has a contract for a set number of years at a set number of dollars. Based on team performance, and DeRo's performance compared to his peers (scorers in MLS) does not merit a raise.

Actually I have a contract. And many of my clients have contracts in their line of work. Executives many times have contracts for example. Once you get to a certain level, standard employment agreements simply do not suffice. And much like DeRo, many of them have contracts for set terms where the renegotiations happen mid-term. In some cases, it's buy-outs if the company is doing poorly or the performance of the individual does not suffice (much like Ricketts). In other instances, it's where the performance of an individual exceeds expectations.


Lets say DeRo produces 14 widgets, and a guy at another company produces 17 for 1/10th of the salary...does DeRo deserve more?

DeRo's salary structure is not based on TFC alone, it is based on the league. In MLS, he does not deserve more relative to his peers.

This is where the disparity of DP contracts comes into play however. DeRo views Angel, Mista, JDG and Emilio as his "peers" as opposed to journeymen like Gargan, at least from a contract point of view. Therefore, relative to his "peers", what should his compensation look like? It depends on how you construct the sample referred to as "peers".

As for the widget example, as was mentioned previously, for constistent performers there is usually a "premium" attached. If that widget-maker happens to make 17 widgets only once in his life and the rest of the time he goes back to making 4 or 5, then no premium is attached to his services.

[Waggy]

Ok, I'll bite. What was the intention?

- prove that outside of MLS, there is limited to no interest in him and somehow parlay that into a raise?

- run his rep into the ground and force his way out of Toronto while damaging his future potential of "DeRo Entertainment"?

- feel grass under his toes for a week?

Great question

[Pachuco]

Lets say DeRo produces 14 widgets, and a guy at another company produces 17 for 1/10th of the salary...does DeRo deserve more?

DeRo's salary structure is not based on TFC alone, it is based on the league. In MLS, he does not deserve more relative to his peers.

But is that really the point you are trying to make though? Because that part is subjective. I can give you a ton of examples as to why Dero is worth what De Guzman makes. I know you can also do the same the other way around. So that point is pretty hard to debate.

I think what some people are saying is that Dero doesn't even have the right to ask for more money, because he signed a contract. Which is just down right silly in my opinion anyways. Now how he goes about it is a different story, that's where I think he's probably taken it too far for the good of the team, although I still support him and hope he gets what he wants either from TFC or elsewhere.

[BFin]

Except you'd have to compare their balance sheets to what they could be. Sure, they make a profit in a monopoly-protected market.

But they made changes to TFC's managemet structure because it wasn't working and there will likely be changes to MLSE's structure when it sells. The CTV sale isn't even finalized and they've already made changes at the top - and that company is also profitable (but just not profitable enough for its new owners). I worked on the show The Bridge, it was the top-rated Canadian show in its first season, #1 every week, and yet there's no season two. Could you imagine the fall-out if CBS or HBO couldn't get their act together enough to get their #1 show back for a second season? That's what I mean by not being on top of things. But it is changing and it will change more. This isn't blind MLSE-bashing, this is looking at what they've and what they're doing and wishing the changes were coming sooner. It's good that they sold all the season tickets and still made these changes, some people didn't even think that would happen.

No offence man, I work in the Cable and Wireless industry...but 'The Bridge' drew less viewers than Cops and Wipeout in the same timeslot, on the same night over a 2 week period (Premiere + 2nd episode). Might explain why no season #2...and it did air on CBS. Real-estate and business development is not a monopoly market, unless I missed the memo that we have to live at Maple Leafs Square now.

[BFin]

I understand people in organization's do have contracts Roogsy, but the point was made to think of him as a labourer. Not many executive labourers. CEO's are given re-negotiations based on the success of the organization. Our organization is very very poor right now.

My opinion of peers for DeRo does not lie in contracts and statuses, it lies in your performance on the pitch of a similar style of player. These are the guys (not on DP contracts) that are known for scoring. A few met or exceeded DeRo's numbers on smaller contracts.

[Roogsy]

But is that really the point you are trying to make though? Because that part is subjective. I can give you a ton of examples as to why Dero is worth what De Guzman makes. I know you can also do the same the other way around. So that point is pretty hard to debate.

I think what some people are saying is that Dero doesn't even have the right to ask for more money, because he signed a contract. Which is just down right silly in my opinion anyways. Now how he goes about it is a different story, that's where I think he's probably taken it too far for the good of the team, although I still support him and hope he gets what he wants either from TFC or elsewhere.

^This...

DeRo's problem has been image-management. What DeRo needed was a good PR manager. In my opinion, nobody should have a problem with his approaching TFC and investigating whether he can get paid more. If he can, good for him. If he can't, it's not like asking hurts anyone.

However, I don't think the way he has gone about it has made him any friends. Lord knows it's made the life of those that support him a little harder I am sure.

[Pachuco]

I understand people in organization's do have contracts Roogsy, but the point was made to think of him as a labourer. Not many executive labourers. CEO's are given re-negotiations based on the success of the organization. Our organization is very very poor right now.

My opinion of peers for DeRo does not lie in contracts and statuses, it lies in your performance on the pitch of a similar style of player. These are the guys (not on DP contracts) that are known for scoring. A few met or exceeded DeRo's numbers on smaller contracts.

Sure...and there are many DPs over the years who have played for the MLS who Dero has outperformed 1000%. What's worse is two examples are on the very same team he plays for. It goes both ways, we could give examples both ways all day long.

[BFin]

It's almost as if he took the Lebron James approach and had a bunch of advisers over at Dero Inc. that have no clue what they are doing from a PR standpoint.

[ensco]

I wouldn't say that MLSE weren't "on top" of TFC. I think Anselmi was focused. Getting grass is not something an absentee landlord does. I just think they handled their management of the team poorly, and somewhat cynically. They were just so thrilled with themselves over this whole TFC phenomenom that they believed the press clippings and got stars in their eyes. The business side (ie ticket pricing) is all they really cared about until recently.

The Teachers management of MLSE, that's different. They've abdicated to a "drop in" board. You couldn't find another example of a 66% shareholder doing that if you tried.

[Roogsy]

I understand people in organization's do have contracts Roogsy, but the point was made to think of him as a labourer. Not many executive labourers. CEO's are given re-negotiations based on the success of the organization. Our organization is very very poor right now.

And much like my example of banks and financials that lost money in some years, their performers still received their performance bonuses. Players are more like star salespeople than they are CEOs.


My opinion of peers for DeRo does not lie in contracts and statuses, it lies in your performance on the pitch of a similar style of player. These are the guys (not on DP contracts) that are known for scoring. A few met or exceeded DeRo's numbers on smaller contracts.

Going back to the widget-example, the difference lies in the consistency. If you can show me someone who has had the consistency of DeRo over 10 years that is still getting paid even half of what he is making (let alone less) then I will seriously re-evaluate my position.

[Yohan]

The whole "honour the contract" issue is a little humourous to me on a personal level since I regularly see contracts get ripped up in favour of new ones, including my own. Contracts are nothing more than agreements that can be changed with new agreements if both sides are willing. They're not laws set in stone written by the hand of God.
that's the thing. both sides are not willing. at least voluntarily.

i have no problem if TFC and DeRo wants to renegotiate if they both want to. the thing is DeRo is using a lot of... questionable tactics to twist TFC's arm into reentering negotiations

now in your world, that might be cool. in a lot of other people's world, that's not so cool

[BFin]

Sure...and there are many DPs over the years who have played for the MLS who Dero has outperformed 1000%. What's worse is two examples are on the very same team he plays for. It goes both ways, we could give examples both ways all day long.

There are many MORE players that DeRo has not outperformed who have made less than him as well. your point?

[Roogsy]

It's almost as if he took the Lebron James approach and had a bunch of advisers over at Dero Inc. that have no clue what they are doing from a PR standpoint.


Good example.

I honestly think the cheque-signing thing was a momentary brain-fart. We have all had them. However, knowing the damage it caused, it should have created a more discreet campaign behind the scenes. Needless to say, that has not happened.

I can tell you first-hand, DeRo does not have image consultants or PR advisors. Perhaps it's time he did.

[Roogsy]

that's the thing. both sides are not willing. at least voluntarily.

i have no problem if TFC and DeRo wants to renegotiate if they both want to. the thing is DeRo is using a lot of... questionable tactics to twist TFC's arm into reentering negotiations

now in your world, that might be cool. in a lot of other people's world, that's not so cool

The world of contracts negotiations is one and the same. It's called leverage and DeRo is trying to create it over TFC. In fact, sports is where this most often happens. I know fans don't like it but then again fans don't have to support his family either?

[BFin]

And much like my example of banks and financials that lost money in some years, their performers still received their performance bonuses. Players are more like star salespeople than they are CEOs.



Going back to the widget-example, the difference lies in the consistency. If you can show me someone who has had the consistency of DeRo over 10 years that is still getting paid even half of what he is making (let alone less) then I will seriously re-evaluate my position.

Challenge accepted. Work will take an even further backseat now!

[Roogsy]

Challenge accepted. Work will take an even further backseat now!


Work...? :noidea:




The word has no meaning to me. :lol:

[Pachuco]

There are many MORE players that DeRo has not outperformed who have made less than him as well. your point?

Sure, that's convenient. Except you don't take into account the fact that the DP rule is fairly new to the MLS and not all clubs have been exercising the DP rule. So that comparison isn't valid. Out of all the DPs that have been signed since it's inception, I can count maybe a couple that have had the consistent output Dero has given to this league.

BTW, it wasn't my point, it was actually your point. I was simply trying to show you that it is very subjective and we could go round and round on that subject.

Once again, what people have been arguing as of late is that he doesn't have the right to ask for more money, not based on his performance, but based on the fact he signed a contract.

That in my mind would mean MLSE doens't have the right to release players like Ricketts before their contract has expired. So is MLSE being disloyal like some people claim Dero is? It goes both ways.

[ensco]

I think you guys are going in circles. Everyone knows Dero can do a job at a price. So can other guys.

The real issue is what the new mgmt want to do with him, because if you keep him, you need to feature him.

The new guys will 100% determine what happens. They'll show him the love if they want to. And we will too, if that's what happens.

[prizby]

He is going to replace Samaras who I believe is leaving.

samaras scored a brace last game though...

[Pachuco]

samaras scored a brace last game though...

That may just mean he's raised his stock and is even more likely to be sold at this point. Who knows.

[Yohan]

The world of contracts negotiations is one and the same. It's called leverage and DeRo is trying to create it over TFC. In fact, sports is where this most often happens. I know fans don't like it but then again fans don't have to support his family either?
i know, but that doesn't mean i have to like the practices used by agents and teams and players for contract negotiation. hence why i'm glad to work in an environment where i have to go through this shit :D

[Roogsy]

Sure, that's convenient. Except you don't take into account the fact that the DP rule is fairly new to the MLS and not all clubs have been exercising the DP rule. So that comparison isn't valid. Out of all the DPs that have been signed since it's inception, I can count maybe a couple that have had the consistent output Dero has given to this league.

BTW, it wasn't my point, it was actually your point. I was simply trying to show you that it is very subjective and we could go round and round on that subject.

Once again, what people have been arguing as of late is that he doesn't have the right to ask for more money, not based on his performance, but based on the fact he signed a contract.

That in my mind would mean MLSE doens't have the right to release players like Ricketts before their contract has expired. So is MLSE being disloyal like some people claim Dero is? It goes both ways.

Carajo hombre..this is one solid point.

[BFin]

Firstly, if we are talking about consistency...DeRo has only had 3 seasons above double digits goals in the last 10 years.

Taylor Twellman, Jeff Cunningham, Jaime Moreno (Edit: Also less than half), Edson Buddle (less than half) all make less than DeRo and have had similar, if not more consistency as goal scorers in the league, in the past decade. Sorry, it was a quick look and the MLS website is horrific for stats.

[Brooker]

And much like my example of banks and financials that lost money in some years, their performers still received their performance bonuses. Players are more like star salespeople than they are CEOs.



Going back to the widget-example, the difference lies in the consistency. If you can show me someone who has had the consistency of DeRo over 10 years that is still getting paid even half of what he is making (let alone less) then I will seriously re-evaluate my position.

where was DeRo from June - September last year.... The most important part of the season? Doing fuck all.

I don't get it. Do people just look at his goal totals at the end of the year and that's that? He went missing for a GIGANTIC stretch last season.

[Chevy]

Challenge accepted. Work will take an even further backseat now!

Here's a start....

Beckerman $250k
Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
Ferreira $300k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Schelotto $241 (as listed on MLS site)??
Hejduk $127


All veterans. All consistent. All established. All relatively older. All recognized players. And it must be noted, all (except Cunty) respected character guys.

Now why again does our player (at $443k) want a raise?

[Roogsy]

Firstly, if we are talking about consistency...DeRo has only had 3 seasons above double digits goals in the last 10 years.

Taylor Twellman, Jeff Cunningham, Jaime Moreno, Edson Buddle (less than half) all make less than DeRo and have had similar, if not more consistency as goal scorers in the league, in the past decade. Sorry, it was a quick look and the MLS website is horrific for stats.


Interesting that you selected strikers for all your examples. Any midfielders?

By the way, consistency also includes championships, playoff appearances, All Stars, MVPs etc.

[Yohan]

Chevy, Keller has only two years in MLS, same with David Ferreira.

[Pachuco]

Firstly, if we are talking about consistency...DeRo has only had 3 seasons above double digits goals in the last 10 years.

Taylor Twellman, Jeff Cunningham, Jaime Moreno, Edson Buddle (less than half) all make less than DeRo and have had similar, if not more consistency as goal scorers in the league, in the past decade. Sorry, it was a quick look and the MLS website is horrific for stats.

How can you possibly think it's right to take one stat (goals scored) and then judge him based on that single stat. What's worse is you then go on to compare him against players who are natural strikers where that stat is more applicable.

How about you look up how many years Dero has taken part in the All Star Game as a threshold for how he's performed compared to his peers around the league? Wouldn't that make more sense?

[Waggy]

Ok a few points:
1) I can't believe this thread is still going. Seriously, after 44 pages if you haven't convinced someone you aren't going to

2) How has there STILL been no word from Dero on all this? Where the hell is he?

3) Why is he still with Celtic since it doesn't seem like they're interested in him at all?

4) I can't believe after 44 pages Roogsy broke out the Sprewell "Feed my family" argument. That may have made my day (for those who don't know/remember http://espn.go.com/dickvitale/vcolumn041108-Sprewell.html) (Aside: Roogsy seriously, if Dero was going to hire you he'd have done it by now :lol:)

5) With the news of Winter coming early this year (Eyo!), why is Dero even still on peoples minds? There's virtually no way he's back with TFC next year, certainly not with a new contract. There's better/happier things to talk about. Until Dero finally breaks his silence there's really nothing to be sorted out on here. It's sad that the worst story around TFC, probably ever, has a thread that's 44 pages long and the best news we've ever had has a thread only 11 pages long.

[Kooper]

I think after 44 pages we have beaten this dead horse enough. It seems to be Rogsy defending and everyone else attacking in alternating waves.

It might be worth locking this thread until something concrete happens and we can start again.

Just a thought.

[Suds]

I think you guys are going in circles. Everyone knows Dero can do a job at a price. So can other guys.

The real issue is what the new mgmt want to do with him, because if you keep him, you need to feature him.

The new guys will 100% determine what happens. They'll show him the love if they want to. And we will too, if that's what happens.

At this stage you're right. What's done is done and people have formed their opinions of this situation, both positive & negative, on DeRo and TFC.

What's important now is where do we go from here? If DeRo stays, how does he mend his broken image with those who in the negative camp? If DeRo goes how do we get the best for him? (because putting out a bad image of him does not help us in terms of equity) How does TFC start showing they can deal with player management better? How does TFC's *new management team deal with a player that is unhappy? (if he returns)

We are where we are. But how to we move forward?

[Chevy]

Chevy, Keller has only two years in MLS, same with David Ferreira.

Very true, but they are still recognizable (particularly Keller) and fit the other characteristicts for appropriate comparison.

[BFin]

Interesting that you selected strikers for all your examples. Any midfielders?

By the way, consistency also includes championships, playoff appearances, MVPs etc.

When DeRo's staple and reason for asking for a raise is because of his all around midfield brilliance I would be inclined to agree.

[BFin]

How can you possibly think it's right to take one stat (goals scored) and then judge him based on that single stat. What's worse is you then go on to compare him against players who are natural strikers where that stat is more applicable.

How about you look up how many years Dero has taken part in the All Star Game as a threshold for how he's performed compared to his peers around the league? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Can do.

However, lets not forget Freddi Ljunberg made the all star team here in 2009...so is this useful?

[Whoop]

I think after 44 pages we have beaten this dead horse enough. It seems to be Rogsy defending and everyone else attacking in alternating waves.

It might be worth locking this thread until something concrete happens and we can start again.

Just a thought.

It's no use. Another thread will start up.

It's like the blob!

[Yohan]

Very true, but they are still recognizable (particularly Keller) and fit the other characteristicts for appropriate comparison.
yeah but the challenge was to find players who have been in MLS for over 10 years and performed at DeRo's level of consistency.

there's probably a lot in 5 yr timeline, but most good MLSers don't stay 5 years in the league

I can do players who have been consistent as DeRo, and have same amount of impact and importance to their team in all positions, esp GK (Hartmann, Joe Cannon for example)

[Roogsy]

When DeRo's staple and reason for asking for a raise is because of his all around midfield brilliance I would be inclined to agree.


DeRo's case is his contribution not just one aspect of his contribution. During his time here in Toronto he has showcased Toronto by helping win 2 trophies, 2 All Star appearances (anyone else on Toronto even go to 1?) and being their leading goal-scorer on a team that without him might have broken it's own record for futility. That is his reason for a raise. Is it good enough? That is for the team to decide. But certainly Jeff Cunningham can't make the same case while he was here. The closest example to what DeRo has done has been Guillermo Barros Schelotto and by all accounts he was a defacto DP without the designation. Some estimates his comp at between 900k and 1mill. To me, that is a fair comparison of a midfielder with the impact similar to DeRo. Except they had a good coach and a good defence whereas we had neither. Had we had that, I am quite certain we could have had simliar performances to the Crew these past couple of years.

[Beach_Red]

No offence man, I work in the Cable and Wireless industry...but 'The Bridge' drew less viewers than Cops and Wipeout in the same timeslot, on the same night over a 2 week period (Premiere + 2nd episode). Might explain why no season #2...and it did air on CBS. Real-estate and business development is not a monopoly market, unless I missed the memo that we have to live at Maple Leafs Square now.


Oh, I know why there's no season #2 on CBS (hey, I can't defend the show ;)) but it won its timeslot every episode on CTV - and they're the ones who are required to have a certain number of hours of Canadian-produced drama, and they're the ones who were owned by teachers (although Ensco has addressed this already, I see).

But one thing about comparing players on other teams - it used to be an issue that some guys didn't want to come to Canada - different taxes and so on. How big an issue is that now?

[Pachuco]

Can do.

However, lets not forget Freddi Ljunberg made the all star team here in 2009...so is this useful?

In my mind it proves more then the stat you threw out. Again though, this was you coming up with looking at a single stat and me saying there are probably better stats out there that are more relevant. At the end of the day though, I'm not sure why you are even insisting on looking up a single stat. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Dero has been consistently a very good player in the MLS throughout his career. I don't really need stats to convince me of that.

[scooter]

Here's a start....

Beckerman $250k
Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
Ferreira $300k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Schelotto $241 (as listed on MLS site)??
Hejduk $127


All veterans. All consistent. All established. All relatively older. All recognized players. And it must be noted, all (except Cunty) respected character guys.

Now why again does our player (at $443k) want a raise?

thanks for sharing those stats that just proves again that dero is overpaid and should be taking a pay cut not trying to twist the club for more

[Brooker]

2 All Star appearances (anyone else on Toronto even go to 1?)

our first Captain..... :o

[Pookie]

Comparing athletes to most of us that fall under the Employment Standards Act is silly. We can negotiate pay raises all we like but the employer also has the right to terminate our relationship provided they provide notice or pay in lieu of. As would be the case if our performance declined. We are only entitled to a reasonable number of week's pay based on years of service, not the full amount we would make in a career.

Market conditions also affect workers in all sectors, some of whom have had to accept pay cuts in order to maintain employment. Those of us in sales know the fluctuations inherent with commissions that are influenced by factors beyond our control.

None of these scenarios apply to a soccer player on a guaranteed deal.

Yes, TFC effectively breaks the contract when they release a player but per the most recent CBA most of the contracts are now guaranteed so the player still gets his money.

Players receive signing bonuses up front or other bonus/incentive payment in order to compensate them for the risk inherent in accepting a deal of this nature.


I'm with Waggy in that this is a moot argument. The player wants a new deal and unless the new management group was born yesterday, it is most likely he isn't going to get it.

We should be focusing on how will will move on without the world's greatest player to ever fill a pair of midfield boots.

[Yohan]

In the attacking midfielder category
Christian Gomez
Brad Davis
Davy Arnaud
Clint Mathis
Steve Ralston

I think these players are close enough to DeRo's level of production and importance to team to make a comparison, as well as years in MLS. yes i know Mathis, Ralston and Gomez have retired from MLS. Oh, and all are not DPs (what I'd do to get Brad Davis for TFC right now...)

I really want to add Javier Morales who is probably best playmaker in the league right now, but only 4 yrs in MLS to date

[Chevy]

In the attacking midfielder category
Christian Gomez $321 (2009)
Brad Davis $258
Davy Arnaud $229
Clint Mathis $115 (2009)
Steve Ralston $150 (2009)

I think these players are close enough to DeRo's level of production and importance to team to make a comparison, as well as years in MLS. yes i know Mathis, Ralston and Gomez have retired from MLS. Oh, and all are not DPs (what I'd do to get Brad Davis for TFC right now...)

I really want to add Javier Morales who is probably best playmaker in the league right now, but only 4 yrs in MLS to date

Updated with Salaries....

[Roogsy]

In the attacking midfielder category
Christian Gomez
Brad Davis
Davy Arnaud
Clint Mathis
Steve Ralston

I think these players are close enough to DeRo's level of production and importance to team to make a comparison, as well as years in MLS. yes i know Mathis, Ralston and Gomez have retired from MLS. Oh, and all are not DPs (what I'd do to get Brad Davis for TFC right now...)

I really want to add Javier Morales who is probably best playmaker in the league right now, but only 4 yrs in MLS to date

I actually like this list. I find it much more comparable than comparing DeRo to Cunningham.

These players bring up two issues. 1) None of them have DeRo's accomplishments. Some are close, others aren't even in the same neighbourhood. And they have come close to his consistency but aren't quite there. And 2) These players are older and played mostly in eras without DPs. What would these players command in 2010 or 2011 terms?

[Chevy]

^^ I think the question is what would your player command in 2011 based on the salaries of the players in the comparison?

Since you admit they are an adequate control group, do you care to answer that question? FWIW, their average salary is $215k.

[TFCRegina]

There are many MORE players that DeRo has not outperformed who have made less than him as well. your point?

In MLS there have been? Oh sure, they might score more goals, but it's the overall performance. One could (and I do) argue that De Rosario is the most successful player ever to play in MLS.

[TFCRegina]

Firstly, if we are talking about consistency...DeRo has only had 3 seasons above double digits goals in the last 10 years.

Taylor Twellman, Jeff Cunningham, Jaime Moreno (Edit: Also less than half), Edson Buddle (less than half) all make less than DeRo and have had similar, if not more consistency as goal scorers in the league, in the past decade. Sorry, it was a quick look and the MLS website is horrific for stats.

De Ro is also an attacking midfielder and not a striker. Compare him to guys who are similar to himself. Most attacking midfielders don't score over 10 goals in a season.

[Roogsy]

In MLS there have been? Oh sure, they might score more goals, but it's the overall performance. One could (and I do) argue that De Rosario is the most successful player ever to play in MLS.


This is my view as well. There is only 1 other player in MLS that rivals (and probably beats) DeRo in terms of consistency, accomplishment and marketability. His name is Landycakes and he makes $2mill per year.

[Chevy]

This is my view as well. There is only 1 other player in MLS that rivals (and probably beats) DeRo in terms of consistency, accomplishment and marketability. His name is Landycakes and he makes $2mill per year.

Forgetting the fact that you're ignoring the question on the table, I'll bite anyway.

So, what's your player worth? Care to answer that?

[Yohan]

I actually like this list. I find it much more comparable than comparing DeRo to Cunningham.

These players bring up two issues. 1) None of them have DeRo's accomplishments. Some are close, others aren't even in the same neighbourhood. And they have come close to his consistency but aren't quite there.
perhaps not as consistent as DeRo, but close enough to make an argument that DeRo really isn't that much better.

and why are you putting such emphasis on how many trophies DeRo won? sure, they are nice, but plenty of great footballers play out their career without winning a trophy. that does not mean they suck (esp when you deal with a bit of crapshoot that is playoffs in NA)

And 2) These players are older and played mostly in eras without DPs. What would these players command in 2010 or 2011 terms?
3 of the best playmakers in MLS, Brad Davis, David Ferreira (although FC Dallas hasn't released his info yet, so he might be making DP after new contract) are not DPs

DeRo is a bit of freak that he has ability to score goals (but he also plays further up field than most AMs, so is he a 2nd striker?)

Ok. Let's compare 2010 stats
DeRo: 15 goals, 3 assists
David Ferreira: 8 goals, 13 assists
Brad Davis: 5 goals, 12 assists
Javier Morales: 7 goals, 9 assists

DeRo has more goals, but has way less assists. and if you're insisting on rating DeRo as a midfielder, assists count, right?
So if you want to argue that a player is as good as his last season, and DeRo deserves DP, then surely all these guys deserve DP money too?

[J .]

This is my view as well. There is only 1 other player in MLS that rivals (and probably beats) DeRo in terms of consistency, accomplishment and marketability. His name is Landycakes and he makes $2mill per year.

Landycakes is much better in all those categories than MeRo. Not even close. LC was massive for the US NT, has played in the WC and consistantly is a top US player despite playing in a lesser MLS league while having proven he can compete in the to echelon of football. MeRo has done nothing of note for the NT aside from squabble with Mitchell, quit on the team and proven nothing in Toronto.Also, MeRo as cut his marketability in Toronto in half. Not even a rivalry.

DeRo is a good MLS player. He puts points up.

He is not great. Great players put points up at the right times.

[Roogsy]

Landycakes is much better in all those categories than MeRo. Not even close. LC was massive for the US NT, has played in the WC and consistantly is a top US player despite playing in a lesser MLS league while having proven he can compete in the to echelon of football. MeRo has done nothing of note for the NT aside from squabble with Mitchell, quit on the team and proven nothing in Toronto.Also, MeRo as cut his marketability in Toronto in half. Not even a rivalry.

DeRo is a good MLS player. He puts points up.

He is not great. Great players put points up at the right times.


You mean like scoring game winning goals in Cup games?

[Chevy]

Major announcement email from TFC just arrived. DeRo? LOL.

[Chevy]

You mean like scoring game winning goals in Cup games?

So, what's he worth then. Stop BS'ing and answer the question on the table.

[JonO]

Not only that, anyone who says De Ro should honour his contract is a hypocrite if they've ever asked for a payraise at work. You sign a contract to work at a set rate. Honour it.
Completely aside, but I have yet to see an employment agreement without a clause that states that the compensation is set at X, and the compensation is to be re-evaluated at specified intervals, usually annually.

[Roogsy]

DeRo has more goals, but has way less assists. and if you're insisting on rating DeRo as a midfielder, assists count, right?
So if you want to argue that a player is as good as his last season, and DeRo deserves DP, then surely all these guys deserve DP money too?


I would argue players like Ferreira will eventually be awarded DP contracts as well. If he shows the consistency of DeRo, then yes he will deserve one.

[Yohan]

You mean like scoring game winning goals in Cup games?
sure could have used some of those clutch game winning goals this season that might have gotten us enough points to get into the playoffs. just saying. :o

[Yohan]

I would argue players like Ferreira will eventually be awarded DP contracts as well. If he shows the consistency of DeRo, then yes he will deserve one.
eventually isn't right now. right now david ferreira makes 300k (AFAIK)

[J .]

You mean like scoring game winning goals in Cup games?

Really?

The entire WCQ campaign
2009 TFC v NYRB
2010 TFC end of July - September

Ive got basically a season of football which if he did what he can do, the NT would have been in the WC, TFC would have made the playoffs and life would be sunshine and roses in the land of Canadian soccer.

[Chevy]

So right now we have a pretty good control group:

Christian Gomez $321 (2009)
Brad Davis $258
Davy Arnaud $229
Clint Mathis $115 (2009)
Steve Ralston $150 (2009)
D. Ferreira $300k
Beckerman $250k


And some other comparables.....

Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Hejduk $127
Donovan $2 Million


Where does this leave us? What's the players value? Anyone?

$400k. Max.

[Yohan]

if you look at DeRo's MLS stats, he had two great years prior to coming to toronto (05, 06). the rest, it's pretty good, but not exactly mindblowing stats. or the 'consistency' we're looking for here

http://www.mlssoccer.com/player/dwayne-de-rosario

[TFCRegina]

Really?

The entire WCQ campaign
2009 TFC v NYRB
2010 TFC end of July - September

Ive got basically a season of football which if he did what he can do, the NT would have been in the WC, TFC would have made the playoffs and life would be sunshine and roses in the land of Canadian soccer.

Ah yes, De Ro is entirely to blame for the 2009 collapse against the NYRB. It had nothing to do with the shit tactical formation, and the constant meddling of Mo Johnston in the affairs of the coaches.

Even better is 2010 TFC end of july - September, when De Rosario was the most productive player on an otherwise unproductive team.

Welcome to Toronto, if you're a talented athlete we'll shoot you (well we would if we weren't so pro-gun control).

[Roogsy]

if you look at DeRo's MLS stats, he had two great years prior to coming to toronto (05, 06). the rest, it's pretty good, but not exactly mindblowing stats

http://www.mlssoccer.com/player/dwayne-de-rosario


So what his history say?

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=1)] Club

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=2)] Early career

De Rosario began his career in 1997, signing with the Toronto Lynx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Lynx) of the A-League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_First_Division), where his future Canadian national team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men%27s_national_soccer_team) teammate Paul Stalteri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Stalteri) had played. Halfway through the season, however, De Rosario opted to change clubs, signing with German side FSV Zwickau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSV_Zwickau). After two seasons with Zwickau, De Rosario opted to return to North America, signing with the Richmond Kickers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Kickers) in 1999. After a slow 1999 season, in which he registered two goals and five assists, De Rosario exploded in 2000, contributing 15 goals and five assists while leading the team to a 20-6-1 record.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=3)] San Jose Earthquakes

The next season, when Canadian Frank Yallop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Yallop) was named head coach of the San Jose Earthquakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose_Earthquakes), De Rosario was one of his first acquisitions. De Rosario proved Yallop's judgment right, scoring five goals and four assists in only 1,072 minutes for the Earthquakes in 2001, playing an important role as the team went on to win the MLS Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup); he scored the golden goal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_goal) in the final and was named MLS Cup MVP. De Rosario had similar success in 2002, registering four goals and eight assists in 1,637 minutes, though the Quakes fell short of a repeat. In 2003, a torn ACL hobbled De Rosario for much of the season but he still managed to make a late surge, registering four goals and three assists in only 686 minutes and helping lead the team to a second MLS Cup championship. De Rosario played 1,214 minutes in 2004, scoring five goals, including the 2004 MLS Goal of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Goal_of_the_Year), and three assists.
In December 2004 Dwayne had a trial with Nottingham Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Forest),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-1) but he was not offered a contract by the team.
In 2005, following Landon Donovan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landon_Donovan)'s departure, De Rosario moved to midfield and promptly led MLS in assists with 13, while scoring nine goals, including the 2005 MLS Goal of the Year - the only player ever to receive that honor in two consecutive years - for a powerful bending free kick in the last regular season game against the Los Angeles Galaxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Galaxy). He was named to the MLS Best XI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Best_XI).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=4)] Houston Dynamo

Due to San Jose's failure to reach a stadium agreement with AEG, De Rosario, along with the rest of his Earthquakes teammates, moved to Houston for the 2006 season. During the 2006 MLS All-Star Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_MLS_All-Star_Game) in Chicago, De Rosario scored the only goal of the game in the 70th minute to lift the MLS All Stars to a 1-0 win over Chelsea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F.C.), a pre-season friendly for the London club. De Rosario was one of only four players on the MLS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer) team to play the entire match.
De Rosario and the Houston Dynamo captured the 2006 MLS Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_2006) title by beating the New England Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Revolution) on November 12, 2006. The Dynamo won in a shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_shootout_(association_football)), and De Rosario successfully converted his penalty kick. De Rosario signed a contract extension with Houston through 2010, where he is reported to make $325,000 per year. However, this seems to be false due to his new transfer to Toronto.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-2)
The next year, De Rosario and the Dynamo repeated the feat by winning the 2007 MLS Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_MLS_Cup), beating New England 2-1. De Rosario was named MLS Cup MVP, the first player ever to win the award twice.
De Rosario made his third consecutive all-star appearance at the 2008 MLS All-Star Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_MLS_All-Star_Game) in his home country, when the game was held in Toronto. He scored the decisive goal on a penalty kick in the 69th minute in the MLS All-Stars' 3-2 victory over West Ham United (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Ham_United).

[Roogsy]

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=5)] Toronto FC

De Rosario was traded to Toronto FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC) on December 12, 2008 in return for Julius James (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_James) and allocation money, after long speculation that De Rosario would move to his hometown club.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-3) He made his competitive debut for Toronto FC on Saturday, March 21 against the Kansas City Wizards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Wizards), setting up Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan) for Toronto's first goal in a 3-2 victory. He scored his first goal for Toronto from a header in a 1-1 draw at BMO Field against FC Dallas.
De Rosario was expected to miss the first two to four weeks of Toronto FC's training camp due to a calf injury obtained in the January 31, 2010 match against Jamaica,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-4) and returned to game action in Toronto's 1-0 preseason win versus the University of Southern Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Southern_Florida).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-5)
On April 8, 2010, De Rosario was named captain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_(association_football)) of Toronto FC, the second in the club's history, after the retirement of Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-TFCcaptain-0) Two days later, De Rosario scored his first goal of the 2010 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Toronto_FC_season), his team's first, in a 4-1 loss the New England Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Revolution).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-6)
On April 15, 2010, De Rosario scored twice in Toronto's home opener, a 2-1 win against the Philadelphia Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Union), including a penalty in the 81st minute.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-7) In his next game versus the Colorado Rapids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Rapids), De Rosario scored his fourth goal of the season, and more importantly, became Toronto FC's all time leading scorer in the regular season.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-8) De Rosario again found the back of the net on April 25 in a 2-0 home win against Seattle Sounders FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Sounders_FC), scoring the first goal, his fifth of the season. Until O'Brian White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Brian_White) scored the second goal for Toronto, De Rosario had previously scored all of Toronto's goals up until that point in the season.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-9) For his efforts in that game, he was awarded the MLS Player of the Week for week 5.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-10) De Rosario was again honoured with the Player of the Week award on week 10 of the MLS season, for his two-goal performance against his former team the San Jose Earthquakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose_Earthquakes). De Rosario had scored the second and third goal in Toronto FC's 3-1 win.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-11)
De Rosario continued to have a successful 2010 season for Toronto, culminating in a spot on the MLS All-Star team, scoring a goal in the 5-2 loss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_All-Star_2010) to Manchester United (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C.).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-12)
On August 3, 2010, De Rosario scored against C.D. Motagua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.D._Motagua) in the second leg of Toronto FC's CONCACAF Champions League preliminary round tie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_CONCACAF_Champions_League_Prelimin ary_Round), which at the time, put TFC ahead on 2-1 on aggregate. They would eventually win 3-2 on aggregate.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-13)
On December 28, De Rosario was confirmed to be on trial with Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League) club Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C.) by manager Neil Lennon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Lennon).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-14)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dwayne_De_Rosario&action=edit&section=6)] Clutch performer

Throughout his career in MLS, De Rosario has earned a reputation as one of the most clutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_(sports)) performers in the league.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_De_Rosario#cite_note-15) His career tally includes 2 game-winning goals in MLS Cup finals, both for which he received MLS Cup MVP, and 2 game-winning goals in MLS All-Star games against foreign oppositions such as West Ham United. On June 18, 2009, he scored a natural hat trick to put Toronto FC ahead of the Montreal Impact 3-1. Toronto had to win the game by four goals to win the Canadian Championship and move onto the CONCACAF Champions League, which they did after defeating Montreal 6-1. On September 18, 2010 after a horrible first half away at Houston down 1-0 Dwayne was able to score 2 unanswered goals in the second half both coming from free kicks including one in stoppage time to keep the team's 2010 playoff dreams alive. Along with Chris Armas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas) and Jaime Moreno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Moreno), De Rosario has the most MLS Best XI selections at 5.










Do you really want me to summarize the many goals of year, game winning goals, league-leading assists (proving he CAN assist if he didn't have duds for teammates) MLS Cup winning goals, CCL winning goals, All-Star Apprearances? Does Ralston have any of these? Does Ferreira? Who has performance and track record similar to this? Who has as many clutch goals? Let's take the best example. Choose one and let's break it down.

[Chevy]

Thanks for the wiki overload, but what's he worth?

[Roogsy]

Ah yes, De Ro is entirely to blame for the 2009 collapse against the NYRB. It had nothing to do with the shit tactical formation, and the constant meddling of Mo Johnston in the affairs of the coaches.

Even better is 2010 TFC end of july - September, when De Rosario was the most productive player on an otherwise unproductive team.

Welcome to Toronto, if you're a talented athlete we'll shoot you (well we would if we weren't so pro-gun control).



Yep...he was in net and played defense as well. It's his fault NYRB scored so many goals. It's not like he is an attacking mid.....no wait.

[Roogsy]

eventually isn't right now. right now david ferreira makes 300k (AFAIK)


Ferreira doesn't have his track record. Please don't make me repeat myself. When his Wiki looks like the one I just posted, he will be making DP money.

[Chevy]

So right now we have a pretty good control group:

Christian Gomez $321 (2009)
Brad Davis $258
Davy Arnaud $229
Clint Mathis $115 (2009)
Steve Ralston $150 (2009)
D. Ferreira $300k
Beckerman $250k


And some other comparables.....

Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Hejduk $127
Donovan $2 Million


Where does this leave us? What's the players value? Anyone?

$400k. Max.


Bump. So what is the player worth?

[TFCRegina]

Bump. So what is the player worth?

Somewhere between 1 to 1.5 million US$.

[Yohan]

^
for Roogs

only argument you got going right now is DeRo's longevity in MLS, which leads to him having more MLS trophies than other players. he's proven that he can perform at highest level, but also lucky as well, esp in playoffs. if Ralston was a little more luckier than DeRo, he would be 4 times MLS cup winner, instead of DeRo (the Revs appeared in 4 finals that Ralston was involved in)

arguably, if Ferreira, Morales, et al stays in MLS as long as DeRo, perhaps they'd have their share of trophies as well. certainly they are collecting them at the same rate DeRo.

exactly what does goals of the year prove anyway? he had a really nice goal?

[P-NUTZ]

I would say he deserves a small raise based on his skills, experience and points scored over the years, as well as his other "intangiables" that have actually taken another hit from this latest incident.

I would pay him $500, but he would likely want more. The question should be to him: "what do YOU think you're worth?"

IMO he deserves the chance to play elsewhere to improve his overall game and thus be a greater asset to us. He too must be sick of MLSE like the rest of us have been. Maybe he did this to make a final point to the organization, but without considering a statement to the fans who don't deserve to clean his dirty laundry.

too bad dero - you're a very good player, but kinda fucked this one up.

[TFCRegina]

^only argument you got going right now is DeRo's longevity in MLS, which leads to him having more MLS trophies than other players. he's proven that he can perform at highest level, but also lucky as well, esp in playoffs. if Ralston was a little more luckier than DeRo, he would be 4 times MLS cup winner, instead of DeRo (the Revs appeared in 4 finals that Ralston was involved in)

arguably, if Ferreira, Morales, et al stays in MLS as long as DeRo, perhaps they'd have their share of trophies as well. certainly they are collecting them at the same rate DeRo.

exactly what does goals of the year prove anyway? he had a really nice goal?

So what?

And nothing says that De Ro has to be paid on a flat scale.

If you ask me, he should be paid on a sliding scale to take into account his rising age (and what will be an inevitable fall in production).

Pay him 2 Million in his first year, and 1 in his second (1.5 in his first, and 500k in his second, depending on the numbers you choose).

You can structure his contract so he is paid appropriately over time.

Everyone here seems to talk about him having to give back the money as he ages, etc. BS.

Structure it like a normal pro-contract. Front load the deal, he'll retire at the end of his contract. I don't think he needs to be extended on his contract, merely re-upped on his deal.

[P-NUTZ]

$750 a year with incentives - that's my final offer!

He must be in some kind of legal squabble with MLSE i bet. Maybe Mo screwed him.

somethings really going on back there for this shit to be happening.

[Roogsy]

arguably, if Ferreira, Morales, et al stays in MLS as long as DeRo, perhaps they'd have their share of trophies as well. certainly they are collecting them at the same rate DeRo.

And if they do, they will be paid DP salaries, that is my only point. You can't compare Ferreira to DeRo right now because there is no comparison, Ferreira has not shown to be able to do his thing consistently like DeRo has.

[Chevy]

And if they do, they will be paid DP salaries, that is my only point. You can't compare Ferreira to DeRo right now because there is no comparison, Ferreira has not shown to be able to do his thing consistently like DeRo has.

So (once again), what's your player's worth?

[Jeffro]

Somewhere between 1 to 1.5 million US$.

Fuck me, more than triple what he made anywhere else before? You have to be fucking kidding.

I made it 46 pages into this thread without posting, but couldn't resist this one.

Carry on. I bet we can get to 100 pages, while repeating ourselves ad nauseum since page 2!

[Yohan]

So what?
lol. i'm going to ignore this


And nothing says that De Ro has to be paid on a flat scale.

If you ask me, he should be paid on a sliding scale to take into account his rising age (and what will be an inevitable fall in production).

Pay him 2 Million in his first year, and 1 in his second (1.5 in his first, and 500k in his second, depending on the numbers you choose).

You can structure his contract so he is paid appropriately over time.

Everyone here seems to talk about him having to give back the money as he ages, etc. BS.

Structure it like a normal pro-contract. Front load the deal, he'll retire at the end of his contract. I don't think he needs to be extended on his contract, merely re-upped on his deal.
I think you're forgetting that one of reasons why DPs exist is to pay players who'd be good enough for Europe to either come to MLS, or to keep in MLS. (Alvaro Fernandez and Alvaro Saborio for example)

Is DeRo good enough for Europe? arguably he had his chances but didn't stick.

because arguing that his MLS stats is good enough to warrant DP money begs the question, why are many MLS teams finding players who put up similar numbers as DeRo, but at cheaper price

[Yohan]

And if they do, they will be paid DP salaries, that is my only point. You can't compare Ferreira to DeRo right now because there is no comparison, Ferreira has not shown to be able to do his thing consistently like DeRo has.
because it's near impossible to find enough players who has been in the league as long as DeRo has. (and yet the sample of players I found is apparently not good enough for you, despite evidences to contrary)

[Beach_Red]

So (once again), what's your player's worth?


You know, the only way to find out is to test the market. Isn't that what he was trying to do?

By the way, we heard that DeRo had a two year contract and then two option years - so what's the date for the team to pick up the option or decide not to?

[Yohan]

You know, the only way to find out is to test the market. Isn't that what he was trying to do?

By the way, we heard that DeRo had a two year contract and then two option years - so what's the date for the team to pick up the option or decide not to?
ya fuck it. put DeRo on MLS market and see which team is willing to pay him DP, as well adequately trading back something to TFC

because not many teams are willing to take such a hit on their cap, unless they are getting something really good in return.

32 yr old career MLSer who's been raising a bit of stink last few years? hmmmm...

[sully]

So right now we have a pretty good control group:

Christian Gomez $321 (2009)
Brad Davis $258
Davy Arnaud $229
Clint Mathis $115 (2009)
Steve Ralston $150 (2009)
D. Ferreira $300k
Beckerman $250k


And some other comparables.....

Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Hejduk $127
Donovan $2 Million


Where does this leave us? What's the players value? Anyone?

$400k. Max.

Anyone know how taxes in the various jurisdictions are factored in? If I'm playing for Dallas for $200,000 or for Toronto for $250,000 I'm probably still going to home home with a lot more if I'm in Dallas with the different taxes regimes...right? I guess it can't be just that simple...?

[Chevy]

You know, the only way to find out is to test the market. Isn't that what he was trying to do?

By the way, we heard that DeRo had a two year contract and then two option years - so what's the date for the team to pick up the option or decide not to?

He's apparently been testing the market and "recieving interest" for the last ten years. :facepalm:

So far, there is zero evidence that the player deserves a million bucks a year. Hell, if Celtic gives him that he would be the second highest paid player in Scotland (after Freddy, who is #1 now).

Combined with this, we have put together comparable players for arguments sake. Funny, the argument seems to stop after that.

Where will we end up after 50+ pages of discussion? $400k. That's the only logical conclusion.

[TFCRegina]

lol. i'm going to ignore this

I think you're forgetting that one of reasons why DPs exist is to pay players who'd be good enough for Europe to either come to MLS, or to keep in MLS. (Alvaro Fernandez and Alvaro Saborio for example)

Is DeRo good enough for Europe? arguably he had his chances but didn't stick.

because arguing that his MLS stats is good enough to warrant DP money begs the question, why are many MLS teams finding players who put up similar numbers as DeRo, but at cheaper price

And I think you're forgetting that the model is in flux, and is changing and that the "attracting players to MLS" model has failed. The only guys we're getting are as old, if not older, than De Ro and have proven shit in this league and generally haven't been near as productive as De Ro.

As for De Ro not being good enough to play in Europe, I disagree. He could have played for higher wages for clubs in 2nd Divisions or bottom feeders in the 1st divisions no problem. And he would have made loads more.

He chose to stay in North America.

[TFCRegina]

Fuck me, more than triple what he made anywhere else before? You have to be fucking kidding.

I made it 46 pages into this thread without posting, but couldn't resist this one.

Carry on. I bet we can get to 100 pages, while repeating ourselves ad nauseum since page 2!

Just comparing him to the only player who is on the same level as him in MLS. Landon Donovan. If Landycakes is worth 2 million, De Ro is at least 1 million.

[Yohan]

And I think you're forgetting that the model is in flux, and is changing and that the "attracting players to MLS" model has failed. The only guys we're getting are as old, if not older, than De Ro and have proven shit in this league and generally haven't been near as productive as De Ro.
either way, most of those 'older guys' have played in highest levels, so they have way more value before coming to MLS. and DeRo has never played in Europe. so let's not forget that little factor

[trane]

^ I think that would be De Ro's position. I am not saying I agree, or care, I only care about on field shit. But I can see him making tha arguemnt. They also play similar positions, in that Donavan is alos not a striker per se but an AM/SS playing as a out and out forward at times.

[TFCRegina]

either way, most of those 'older guys' have played in highest levels, so they have way more value before coming to MLS. and DeRo has never played in Europe. so let's not forget that little factor

Double standard. You (and others) wanted to compare De Ro's production to what others have done in MLS. But you're unwilling to hold DPs to the same standard because they haven't played here. Instead, you value them by what they were worth to people over in Europe.

De Ro is worth a hell of a lot more than 400k in Europe and can find wages if he chooses to sign with a weaker team thousands of miles away from where his family wants to be. But we don't use a European valuation for him.

No, no, instead, we value him by MLS.

So let's value Mista by MLS standards. Can't be worth more than 48k, because Wondo made that and scored a hell of a lot more than he did. Henry is only worth 48k by that standard.

JDG isn't worth more than 250k, because he's not as good as Beckerman.

You guys use the double standard to place more value on guys who have proven shit in the North American game (which is a different game due to time zone crossing, physicality, and playing style) because they've spent substantial time in Europe (where yes, they have better players and higher wages, but they play a completely different style game).

[Yohan]

^ I think that would be De Ro's position. I am not saying I agree, or care, I only care about on field shit. But I can see him making tha arguemnt. They also play similar positions, in that Donavan is alos not a striker per se but an AM/SS playing as a out and out forward at times.
it depends, but I think Arena used him as inside forward/winger last year. similar to position he played for USMNT in WC (anyone correct me on this?)

[Chevy]

And if they do, they will be paid DP salaries, that is my only point. You can't compare Ferreira to DeRo right now because there is no comparison, Ferreira has not shown to be able to do his thing consistently like DeRo has.

So what is your player worth?

[Yohan]

Double standard. You (and others) wanted to compare De Ro's production to what others have done in MLS. But you're unwilling to hold DPs to the same standard because they haven't played here. Instead, you value them by what they were worth to people over in Europe.

De Ro is worth a hell of a lot more than 400k in Europe and can find wages if he chooses to sign with a weaker team thousands of miles away from where his family wants to be. But we don't use a European valuation for him.

No, no, instead, we value him by MLS.

So let's value Mista by MLS standards. Can't be worth more than 48k, because Wondo made that and scored a hell of a lot more than he did. Henry is only worth 48k by that standard.

JDG isn't worth more than 250k, because he's not as good as Beckerman.

You guys use the double standard to place more value on guys who have proven shit in the North American game (which is a different game due to time zone crossing, physicality, and playing style) because they've spent substantial time in Europe (where yes, they have better players and higher wages, but they play a completely different style game).
i actually agree with you. Mista and JDG certainly isn't worth their wages so far

but we didn't know that Mista and JDG would suck BEFORE they signed their contracts. and based upon their playing career resume, and profile, and relative perceived value in world market, they would not play in MLS except for a DP contract. hindsight is 20/20.

are you going to argue that Becks and Henry aren't worth DP contracts too?

[P-NUTZ]

make it a poll!!!!!

Q: what is dero worth to TFC in fans eyes?

and give various choices from 0 - whatever number.

[Pachuco]

I would double Dero's wage personally. Maybe you could even pull it off with allocation money which would avoid having to give him the DP status which we all know the MLS holds for old farts with an accent.

[Roogsy]

I would double Dero's wage personally. Maybe you could even pull it off with allocation money which would avoid having to give him the DP status which we all know the MLS holds for old farts with an accent.


That's what Columbus did with Schelotto.

[Chevy]

That's what Columbus did with Schelotto.

GBS isn't the issue here. What is your player worth?

[Yohan]

I would double Dero's wage personally. Maybe you could even pull it off with allocation money which would avoid having to give him the DP status which we all know the MLS holds for old farts with an accent.
eh. question remains just how much allocation money TFC has left. and those things run out, so even if TFC upped DeRo's salary and pay it with allocation money just like GBS w Columbus, eventually the allocation money runs out. not to mention not being able to spend it to reduce other players salaries or potential transfer fees. and columbus did end up making GBS DP for 2 seasons IIRC and without allocation money.

[Roogsy]

eh. question remains just how much allocation money TFC has left. and those things run out, so even if TFC upped DeRo's salary and pay it with allocation money just like GBS w Columbus, eventually the allocation money runs out. not to mention not being able to spend it to reduce other players salaries or potential transfer fees. and columbus did end up making GBS DP for 2 seasons IIRC and without allocation money.


I do agree it's an ineffecient way of increasing his contract value.

[v00d00daddy]

DeRo is a good player. He's not shit. He's not one of the greatest either. He's a good player.

He gets paid like a good player.

You guys wanna talk about his abilities...just watch him fucking play.

If you think he's a good distributor of the ball because he got a lot of assists a few seasons ago...fine...good for you.

I think he's a SHIT distributor of the ball because any player who decides not to pass to his teammates due to a lack of confidence in their ability should NOT BE PLAYING. Plain and simple.

I don't care how good you are. If you don't share the ball because you don't think your teammates are good enough you are a class A piece of garbage....despite how skilled you may be.

Add to that the fact that the guy wears the armband and it pisses me off even more.

Yes...DeRo may have been one of the best players in the league apart from the two seasons he's spent with TFC.

Some may even think he deserves to get more money based on his past accomplishments and current conrtibutions with TFC. That's fine too.

I don't care about all of that. Bottom line (just my opinion of course):

You'd better be a hell of a lot better than DeRo is to get away with behaving the way he does.

Share the ball.
Teach your teammates
Lead by example.
Make players around you better.
Play your position.
Listen to your coach.
Represent your team and your city in a way that will make people want to be a part the team.

AND

Score like a MOFO (Which he does)

Do all of these things and then...MAYBE...you can talk about gettting a pay raise.


also...people...please stop talking about All Star game achievements and NCC results.

The MLS cup and league MVP stuff is more than valid but the All Star games are a farcical dog and pony show (which I enjoy I might add) and scoring in them means very little to me.

The NCC "Miracle in Montreal" is an even bigger joke as far as "clutch" performances.

I've gotten to the point where I just want to know what's going to happen with him.

He goes...fine.
He stays...fine.
He stays and continues with his bullshit attitude and selfish play....not fine.

[Yohan]

I'm surprised Roogsy didn't jump on MLS precedents for signing MLS players to DP contracts yet. I think it was even mentioned a few times. See Montero, Saborio, Emilio all have started in MLS with non DP contracts but proved enough to their team owners that they deserve DP contracts.

Caveat is that Montero and Saborio started with a loan contract, and only got DP status when they got transferred permanently to MLS.

Just another note that it seems MLS FO usually resists signing domestic MLS players to DP salary. I think MLS Ok'd the 3 listed as DPs because 1. they score a fuckload of goals 2. are foreigners, not domestic MLSers, and 3. in prime of their career, not getting into old geezer age and 4. makes sense to keep them in MLS to raise profile of MLS in US

so even if MLSE is willing to pay DeRo DP money, i'm not sure if MLS FO would OK it

[P-NUTZ]

someone make a poll to vote on his $ value to us - from $0 to whatever number.

i dont know how to.

[Roogsy]

Please...no more polls. We have 2 threads on DeRo, we don't need a 3rd.

Yohan, I actually ran into the Emilio non-DP-to-DP example today but I figured it was just one more additional point to muddy the waters of discussion even more. Besides...it would have generated the "yeah but Emilio did this and Emilio did that" arguments out of the woodworks.

To me the issue is simple. Tell DeRo yes or no and then live with the consequences. You guys aren't the only ones tired of this issue and the fact that TFC did not put it to rest earlier is exactly why I don't have confidence in them. I bet Winter and Mariner end this issue once and for all sooner rather than later. If they had any sense, they would, and I suspect they do.

[Pookie]

Holy Fudge Cakes Batman, what a discussion.

Comparing him to Landon Donovan, a player that actually went over to Europe and played well in the EPL (as well as World Cup) to De Rosario, a player that arranged a shady trial that even his defenders believe will not end in a contract?

Forget the comparisons.

It's like buying a house. It doesn't matter what the owners paid for it 10 years ago. Or how good it did in a real estate boom.

When you buy it you are comparing it with the market at the time you want to buy it. That's it. What's it worth today? That's when I'm writing my cheque.

All this talk about accomplishments establish a historical track record of performance. But like the house, what is its current status? Does it need new windows? A furnace? Shingles?

This is the decision process

If we are going to entertain a price on this player, what's his worth right now?

Apparently, if we are talking about a contract renegotiation with TFC, he will have had no value to Celtic. A team that is shopping for mid-field talent. Conclusion: He isn't comparable to other international(s) houses.

Concentrate on what his current market value relative to other 32 year old MLS mid-field players is.

If you conclude that he is currently an above average 32 year old MLS mid-field player, then what is that dollar value worth?

If you conclude that it is above the MLS maximum salary then we are going into another market entirely. The DP one.

We are now looking in fancier neighbourhoods for our house.

We would then have to compare him with all other available DPs that are currently on the market. Not current DPs in the league (so ignore DeGuzman or Donovan or Henry or xyz), like houses that aren't on the market, they aren't for sale.

You've got to look at the houses that are and compare those. You can't buy something not for sale. So, who are the DP candidates that are available to TFC?

Since the cap hit is the same regardless of the player, we can focus a little more on their projected talent and future contributions.

Only then can we decide on whether moving into a DeRo DP house is a good move.

[Beach_Red]

You've got to look at the houses that are and compare those. You can't buy something not for sale. So, who are the DP candidates that are available to TFC?



And are willing to come to TFC - I'm still hopeful that's something that changes with tomorrow's announcement if, you know, the way they've screwed up every player leaving this team doesn't affect incoming players too much ;).

[Roogsy]

Think we can get to 50 pages today? :party:

[Chevy]

Think we can get to 50 pages today? :party:
...and still no comment from you on what your player is worth. Funny....

[Pookie]

Boy, you are Mr Optimist ;)

[P-NUTZ]

i want a poll on his $ value!

[Roogsy]

Boy, you are Mr Optimist ;)

Never really been called that... :lol:

[BFin]

So, what did I miss?? :)

[Waggy]

Since there seems to be some confusion going on today we should probably clear things up. I hate Landon Donovan, but the guy has proved himself in the EPL, he's proved himself in the Confed Cup, World Cup qualifying and the World Cup. How exactly is Dero worth half of him? This is preposterous. Sports is one of very few truely capitalist business left- even in capped leagues. If Dero was worth a million dollars a year, he'd find somewhere to get a million dollars a year. Since after he's been looking, for at this point what, 6 months? It's safe to say hes NOT worth more than $440k. If he was worth that much, he'd have already found his raise.

Dero is a very good MLS player. He is paid like a very good MLS player. He should not be paid like a guy who can start on an EPL team because he's NOT someone who could start on an EPL team. In fact, right now we're seeing he isn't capable of being a BACKUP on a team that'd be equivalent to a bottom tier EPL team (sorry Celtic fans. Nothing against you, or Rangers for that matter, but clearly neither club is at that level right now)

And all this is ignoring the main point people who are against giving Dero a raise which seems to be forgotten here: THE FACT THAT HE IS UNDER CONTRACT AND TOOK OFF FOR ANOTHER COUNTRY/CLUB WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF TORONTO FC. I wouldn't give in to a hostage taker, and I certainly don't want my club giving in to one either. At this point TFC can laugh at Dero- he hasn't found an MLS team who'll pay him what he wants, he hasn't found an international team, his HOME TOWN TEAM doesn't think he's worth it: at a certain point reality has to come into play here. I can sit at work and demand my salary gets quadroupled because of how much I do, but unless they pay me quadrouple my salary then clearly I'm not WORTH that. It's just in my head. I'm worth what I'm paid. Thats how worth works.

[prizby]

roogsy, you been all over the place...what are you argueing?

[Chevy]

i want a poll on his $ value!

Tried that before. Got removed pretty quick. :(

Give it a shot - start a new thread and include a poll.

Less Than $200k
200-299k
300-399k
400-499k
500-599k
600-699k
700-799k
800k+

[Beach_Red]

Boy, you are Mr Optimist ;)


Now I think the goal is to get to fifty pages... and asking about "worth" is a good way to do it because it's subjective until someone actually writes a cheque. This is like the comment about people not knowing the difference between the cost of something and the value of something. We know what the player's cost is now, but figuring out his worth is something else again. And the trial with Celtic is something that affects his worth. Let's face it, if he had gone to Celtic with no controversy about paperwork, had a decent trial but not been signed that would give his agent a value to try and get that's probably different than the one he's going to try and get with all the controversy.

I don't think the team intended to affect the player's value (I hope they haven't made it that personal) but... oh hell, who cares, the important thing is does this help us get to fifty pages?

[J .]

Ah yes, De Ro is entirely to blame for the 2009 collapse against the NYRB. It had nothing to do with the shit tactical formation, and the constant meddling of Mo Johnston in the affairs of the coaches.

Even better is 2010 TFC end of july - September, when De Rosario was the most productive player on an otherwise unproductive team.

Welcome to Toronto, if you're a talented athlete we'll shoot you (well we would if we weren't so pro-gun control).

Im not shooting him. I know he is a talent, I really wanted him to come here. Goals aside, he has disappointed. I've never said he wasnt good. I do not agree with your or DeRoogsys valuation of him. He has not proven to be a winner here or on the NT and has proven to be a problem on other clubs.

In big games, when the team needed leadership, he was absent and players looked up to him. Maybe the manager was horrible and the tactics not favourable for his style. But to give up, bitch and complain? No thanks.

Even if everything around him went to hell and its not his responsibility to motivate the players around him, he still didn't perform. Ive seen him lead two coups in three years which lead to the disintegration of the teams efforts to win. Thats the wrong type of leadership. Stats or not. He is a good player, not a great one and he has destroyed a potential legacy in favour of some cash. Thats his choice, but its mine to withdraw my support of a player that was once my favourite.

Other MLS teams know he's available and if your valuation of his talent is accurate, TFC could then make some major addition to the lineup. That would be a plus to a team that has to rebuild from four years of failure.

[bgnewf]

any word when DeRo will know what the deal is going to be with Celtic and Europe?

when is he coming back?

[TFCRegina]

i actually agree with you. Mista and JDG certainly isn't worth their wages so far

but we didn't know that Mista and JDG would suck BEFORE they signed their contracts. and based upon their playing career resume, and profile, and relative perceived value in world market, they would not play in MLS except for a DP contract. hindsight is 20/20.

are you going to argue that Becks and Henry aren't worth DP contracts too?

I'd argue they're overpaid, but worth DP contracts. I'd argue just about every starter in this league is underpaid though. That's the nature of the system set up by MLS.

Lack of Free agency, a draft, a focus on trading players for draft picks/pay, and a salary cap combine to reduce the value of most the starters (and likely all the bench players) in the league. DP's are likely overvalued because they bring an unmeasurable asset (credibility) to the table.

When you start looking at the stats, you can see there are woeful inefficiencies in Major League Soccer caused by anti-market restrictions on player movement.

[Roogsy]

Im not shooting him. I know he is a talent, I really wanted him to come here. Goals aside, he has disappointed. I've never said he wasnt good. I do not agree with your or DeRoogsys valuation of him. He has not proven to be a winner here or on the NT and has proven to be a problem on other clubs.


People that know me and I know them can make that joke and I will laugh with them. People that don't know me I am not ok with the joke.

[TFCRegina]

Im not shooting him. I know he is a talent, I really wanted him to come here. Goals aside, he has disappointed. I've never said he wasnt good. I do not agree with your or DeRoogsys valuation of him. He has not proven to be a winner here or on the NT and has proven to be a problem on other clubs.

In big games, when the team needed leadership, he was absent and players looked up to him. Maybe the manager was horrible and the tactics not favourable for his style. But to give up, bitch and complain? No thanks.

Even if everything around him went to hell and its not his responsibility to motivate the players around him, he still didn't perform. Ive seen him lead two coups in three years which lead to the disintegration of the teams efforts to win. Thats the wrong type of leadership. Stats or not. He is a good player, not a great one and he has destroyed a potential legacy in favour of some cash. Thats his choice, but its mine to withdraw my support of a player that was once my favourite.

Other MLS teams know he's available and if your valuation of his talent is accurate, TFC could then make some major addition to the lineup. That would be a plus to a team that has to rebuild from four years of failure.

Strange I thought it was Robbo and Brennan skippering the team in the 2009 Meltdown, and not De Ro.

Also strange, I'd sell out my legacy for the chance to be paid a million bucks for two years. Especially when your career in this business lasts around 10-15 years, and he's made less than 500k in each of those years.

[Suds]

Strange I thought it was Robbo and Brennan skippering the team in the 2009 Meltdown, and not De Ro.

Also strange, I'd sell out my legacy for the chance to be paid a million bucks for two years. Especially when your career in this business lasts around 10-15 years, and he's made less than 500k in each of those years.

So DeRo's never going to work again after soccer?

[Roogsy]

And I would argue the legacy that DeRo has damaged is only in Toronto and even that is mitigated by the fact that most people recognize that TFC has been a bad team before and during DeRo's time here. The rest of the league does not care about this drama. TFC is a laughing stock anyways. So they figure it's not surprising this is happening.

DeRo's legacy in San Jose and Houston is unperturbed.

I have noticed the attempt to rewrite TFC history and the debacle in NY last year as falling on DeRo's shoulders. Let's see...there was a skipper who was not DeRo, there was a DP who was not DeRo and there was an entire backline and keeper who let in 5 goals who was not DeRo. But somehow NY is a representation of DeRo's play in Toronto? :noidea:

[Suds]

And I would argue the legacy that DeRo has damaged is only in Toronto. The rest of the league does not care about this drama. TFC is a laughing stock anyways. So they figure it's not surprising this is happening.

DeRo's legacy in San Jose and Houston is unperturbed.

I have noticed the attempt to rewrite TFC history and the debacle in NY last year as falling on DeRo's shoulders. Let's see...there was a skipper who was not DeRo, there was a DP who was not DeRo and there was an entire backline and keeper who let in 5 goals who was not DeRo. But somehow NY is a representation of DeRo's play in Toronto? :noidea:


Yeah, I have to agree that's bullshit. That loss can't be put on one guy.

[Beach_Red]

Even if everything around him went to hell and its not his responsibility to motivate the players around him, he still didn't perform. Ive seen him lead two coups in three years which lead to the disintegration of the teams efforts to win. Thats the wrong type of leadership. Stats or not. He is a good player, not a great one and he has destroyed a potential legacy in favour of some cash. Thats his choice, but its mine to withdraw my support of a player that was once my favourite.




Just curious, if there had been no controversy around this trial, if it had all gone normally and TFC themselves made the announcement about it and wished him luck, would you still feel today that DeRo has, "destroyed a potential legacy?"

[Whoop]

Yet I remember Amado Guevara scoring 2 goals and Chad Barrett scoring 1 against Montreal, yet it was DeRo alone that lead TFC to NCC glory!

[Roogsy]

Yet I remember Amado Guevara scoring 2 goals and Chad Barrett scoring 1 against Montreal, yet it was DeRo alone that lead TFC to NCC glory!

Nobody has ever said it was DeRo alone. What people have said is that wihtout DeRo, the 6 goals would not have happened. Is there something inaccurate about that?

[Whoop]

Yeah, I have to agree that's bullshit. That loss can't be put on one guy.

I've been one of the proponents of that. I've never said it was solely his fault the team lost in NY.

My argument is, and has always been, if you're going to give credit to DeRo for "Miracle in Montreal" then he also has to take some of the blame for the NYRB debacle.

Yet DeRo backers always point to Montreal yet neglect New York.

You can't pick and choose.

You win as a team, you lose as a team.

[Suds]

I've been one of the proponents of that. I've never said it was solely his fault the team lost in NY.

My argument is, and has always been, if you're going to give credit to DeRo for "Miracle in Montreal" then he also has to take some of the blame for the NYRB debacle.

Yet DeRo backers always point to Montreal yet neglect New York.

You can't pick and choose.

You win as a team, you lose as a team.

Agreed. He contributed to both the loss and the win as did the rest of the team.

[Roogsy]

You win as a team, you lose as a team.


If you are truly that objective, and stand by this point, why then have you not also been arguing against the concept that "DeRo did not get us into the playoffs"? Is that not also just as contrary to your position? (Not to mention contradictory to your belief of a "captain" that leads his team to victory. If it's a team game where no one person deserves credit or blame, then that should not also fall upon the captain.)

[Whoop]

Nobody has ever said it was DeRo alone. What people have said is that wihtout DeRo, the 6 goals would not have happened. Is there something inaccurate about that?

I've read over and over in countless threads that DeRo brought TFC NCC glory... That without DeRo TFC doesn't win the Voyageurs Cup.

As without DeRo do the six goals not happen? No one knows.

We do know that Montreal fielded a pretty shitty lineup that night and maybe Dichio scores 1 or 2, and maybe Amado scores 1 or 2 more.

All people are doing at that point is just assuming.

[Roogsy]

I've read over and over in countless threads that DeRo brought TFC NCC glory... That without DeRo TFC doesn't win the Voyageurs Cup.

As without DeRo do the six goals not happen? No one knows.

We do know that Montreal fielded a pretty shitty lineup that night and maybe Dichio scores 1 or 2, and maybe Amado scores 1 or 2 more.

All people are doing at that point is just assuming.

Assumptions are simply educated guesses. Surely you are in a position, after having watched TFC for 4 years including the initial NCC where TFC wound up in last place, you can make an educated guess as to whether TFC would have likely scored 6 goals, 3 of them coming from one player alone, to win the first NCC? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out general probabilities on that front. How many times (ever, in preseason, league play, NCC, exhibition, anywhere) has TFC had at least 3 players score, with 2 of them scoring multiple goals? Working out those probabilities you come to an opinion that most would consider educated, or at the very least having sound basis.

So I am fairly comfortable in saying that without DeRo those number of goals don't happen. And it was those number of goals needed to win the NCC therefore without DeRo we don't win the first NCC. I did not say we would not have wont that game, considering the weak side the Impact put up. But then again, you always avoid the point that a win was simply not enough in that instance was it?

So unless you could point to those 3 goals coming from somewhere else, I would have to simply believe you are using the NYRB game to cancel the credit of the Montreal game without taking all factors into account.

[Whoop]

If you are truly that objective, and stand by this point, why then have you not also been arguing against the concept that "DeRo did not get us into the playoffs"? Is that not also just as contrary to your position?

I've never argued for or against that point.

My only argument has always been - and you go through all the threads - is against those who state that without DeRo TFC doesn't win the Voyageurs Cup in Montreal in June of 2009. That it was only him that won the game for TFC.

Playoffs is a team thing.

Even if I don't think DeRo is a good leader - and IN MY OPINION suspect he has poisoned the locker room with all the contract talk - he's not solely responsible for getting TFC, or failing to get TFC, to the playoffs.

It's a team game.

And I have no issue replacing him. While it may difficult to do, at some point it would have to be done, whether this season, next season or the season after that, no one player is bigger than the club.

[Roogsy]

My only argument has always been - and you go through all the threads - is against those who state that without DeRo TFC doesn't win the Voyageurs Cup in Montreal in June of 2009. That it was only him that won the game for TFC.

There seems to be an issue here of defining the difference between the game being won without DeRo and DeRo winning the game by himself. Without defining that difference, this point goes nowhere.

[__wowza]

:deadhorse:

*points downwards*

[Suds]

Ball

[Whoop]

Assumptions are simply educated guesses. Surely you are in a position, after having watched TFC for 4 years including the initial NCC where TFC wound up in last place, you can make an educated guess as to whether TFC would have likely scored 6 goals, 3 of them coming from one player alone, to win the first NCC? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out general probabilities on that front. How many times has TFC had at least 3 players score, with 2 of them scoring multiple goals? Working out those probabilities you come to an opinion that most would consider educated, or at the very least having sound basis.

So I am fairly comfortable in saying that without DeRo those number of goals don't happen. And it was those number of goals needed to win the NCC therefore without DeRo we don't win the first NCC. I did not say we would not have wont that game, considering the weak side the Impact put up. But then again, you always avoid the point that a win was simply not enough in that instance was it?

So unless you could point to those 3 goals coming from somewhere else, I would have to simply believe you are using the NYRB game to cancel the credit of the Montreal game without taking all factors into account.

Without DeRo in the lineup someone else would have gotten those touches. Like I said, maybe Dichio gets 1 or 2 goals and Amado gets one more or Barrett gets one more.

And I do firmly believe that NY game cancels out all the good feelings of the Montreal game.

The "team" came through against Montreal, the "team" shit the bed against NY.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Beach_Red]

:deadhorse:



*points downwards*


Hey now, that kind of talk isn't going to get us to 50 pages and we're so close....

[__wowza]

argh, but we could've all stopped at one and a half.
now i remember why i stayed off the boards last offseason!

[Roogsy]

Without DeRo in the lineup someone else would have gotten those touches. Like I said, maybe Dichio gets 1 or 2 goals and Amado gets one more or Barrett gets one more.

And I do firmly believe that NY game cancels out all the good feelings of the Montreal game.

The "team" came through against Montreal, the "team" shit the bed against NY.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

So you're saying the probabilities of 3 players scoring, 2 of them at least twice would have definitely happened in this game without DeRo? Has it ever happened before or since? It is intentionally dismissive to believe that there aren't difference-makers in a game. Someone who can turn the game on a dime, especially once you consider the odds.

Anyone who remembers that game remembers DeRo playing like a man possessed. Nobody else was playing that way. Yes. Amado and Chad both scored, but they didn't open the scoring and their goals seemed to come after DeRo put Montreal on their heels. To take away that game from DeRo's credit and equate it to an entire team not coming out to play in New York is like I said, not taking all factors into account. Sure we are both seeing things the way we'd like to see them. But in NY, I have not seen anyone explain to me what exactly DeRo was supposed to do about players missing defensive assignments. About players playing without fire. Surely he can't be expected to be the only one who ever comes out and pretend like he cares? He did it once, are you saying you were expecting him to do it again? Because I assume of course that your argument is not that DeRo should have played Centre-back or net right? Were you expecting him to score 4 goals that night?

It certainly wasn't our "captain" that won us the NCC and it wasn't our "captain" that shook our players awake in NY. I was in NY. That was an entire team giving up. And I have the Montreal game on DVD. That was one player making a difference and dragging his team to an overwhelming victory. Much like Danny's fire sparked our first ever win. Without Danny we don't win that first game. Without DeRo we don't win with enough goals for our first trophy.

[J .]

...I think he did it with the cheque signing incident. If he kept his head down without controversy I think it would have blown over next season. But with the Celtic trial incident I think he's stuck and thats two bad. Before all of this I thought it could be a situation where a homegrown guy would return and lift the struggling team to glory. Instead its been the polar opposite. The only way to look at his signing as sucessful is to look at his stats which doesn't tell the whole story...

...I would agree 100% there has to be blame placed on Robinsons shoulders as well as Brennan, JDG and DeRo. They were more focused on the idiot GM than winning. Everyone has or has had a boss they dont like but still need to perform. They didnt Two years running (three if you count the NT)...

...MeRoogsy is better? Seriously going to make a little jab about your support of MeRo an issue? You and others take shots at people all the time in word and tone. Dish it. Take it. Relax. Im not your friend and Im not your enemy, but you can't bully me around. If its any better I'd call you that to your face and you can hold me to that...

[Pookie]

So, while a player may wish to renegotiate based on his perceived importance and all is supposed to be understood/forgiven...

What of a player that makes the league minimum yet makes a fairly large contribution to the team who doesn't say a word about his situation?

Yep. I'm talking about Nana Attakora who has sucked up his 2 year contract at $40k per season and said absolutely nothing (at least publicly).

He chooses to wait until it is time to renew. He chooses to honour the deal that was good enough for him 2 years ago even when no one would begrudge him a raise.

I can't put him and Dwayne in the same category when it comes to character. Nana is head and shoulders a better professional and teammate than Dwayne could ever hope to be.

When Attakora's contract is renewed, here's hoping he gets what is due to him.

[Waggy]

Ball

WIN. Made me burst out laughing

[Roogsy]

...MeRoogsy is better? Seriously going to make a little jab about your support of MeRo an issue? You and others take shots at people all the time in word and tone. Dish it. Take it. Relax. Im not your friend and Im not your enemy, but you can't bully me around. If its any better I'd call you that to your face and you can hold me to that...

This is not about bullying you around. When someone tells you they don't like something, it's not bullying, it's making you aware that you crossed a line.

So I am politely asking you to not refer to me in that way. Roogsy or Roogs will do.

[Beach_Red]

argh, but we could've all stopped at one and a half.
now i remember why i stayed off the boards last offseason!


Sorry man, just joking around. On this board you have to pick your threads carefully ;).

And J. I agree that when you add up things like the cheque signing and the trip to Glasgow it all has an affect.

And Pookie, there's a big difference between someone sucking it up for the first two years of his athletic career and the last two. I also hope Attakora gets what he wants (or deserves, is that what we're saying? Always makes me think of Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, "Deserv's got nothing to do with it.") and frankly, this mess with DeRo can't be helping in his contract negotiations (didn't his contract run out December 31st?).

[jloome]

This is not about bullying you around. When someone tells you they don't like something, it's not bullying, it's making you aware that you crossed a line.

So I am politely asking you to not refer to me in that way. Roogsy or Roogs will do.

He'll also except "Joe Seventytwopointpenis".

[Roogsy]

He'll also except "Joe Seventytwopointpenis".

:lol:

[Suds]

I hope this post makes it 49 pages

[Roogsy]

Hey now, that kind of talk isn't going to get us to 50 pages and we're so close....


I will try to be more expansive in my replies. Unfortunately posts are limited to 10,000 characters.

Unfortunately, I foresee an obstacle. It's quittin' time and I have plans to go out with the boys tonight. Somebody will have to be the lone ranger on this one and carry the defence for the other side. Whoopee I am looking in your direction. :lol:

[TFCRegina]

So DeRo's never going to work again after soccer?

No, it just means that what is likely his number 1 means of a career for producing revenue is over, and his next piece of employment will probably pay less. How many here can say they'll have peaked in income by age 32?

Most of us will peak around age 50-55.

[Suds]

No, it just means that what is likely his number 1 means of a career for producing revenue is over, and his next piece of employment will probably pay less. How many here can say they'll have peaked in income by age 32?

Most of us will peak around age 50-55.

Oh brother I hope so ... Suds needs more $$$$. :)

[Mr. Bigby]

I hope this post makes it 49 pages

Well, anything I can do to help...

[scooter]

hell yes this is just like the old post whores

[Roogsy]

No, it just means that what is likely his number 1 means of a career for producing revenue is over, and his next piece of employment will probably pay less. How many here can say they'll have peaked in income by age 32?

Most of us will peak around age 50-55.


Most athletes face this shock. And it is a shock, as preventable as it is. Many athletes live far beyond their means and when retirement comes, they don't have enough socked away to make it comfortably into the next period of their lives.

Not everyone lands jobs like Craig Forrest at Sportsnet. The smart ones can, but those opportunities are limited and many athletes I have met aren't exactly rocket scientists. (To be fair, I have also met very intelligent athletes as well, well spoken and preparing themselves for their life after their sporting career is over. They're not all dumb jocks, but there does seem to be a disproportionate number of dopey pros.)

[Pookie]

Most athletes face this shock. And it is a shock, as preventable as it is. Many athletes live far beyond their means and when retirement comes, they don't have enough socked away to make it comfortably into the next period of their lives.


Ok. Many non-athletes live beyond their means too. Check out a casino sometime.

Sad situation but not a reason to bail someone out in an employment situation by over-paying for their services.

[TFCRegina]

Ok. Many non-athletes live beyond their means too. Check out a casino sometime.

Sad situation but not a reason to bail someone out in an employment situation by over-paying for their services.

Except he's not overpaid, he's woefully underpaid relative to what he's produced in MLS.

We've repeatedly demonstrated this with the facts, and people continue to willfully bury their heads in the sand.

[Chevy]

Except he's not overpaid, he's woefully underpaid relative to what he's produced in MLS.

We've repeatedly demonstrated this with the facts, and people continue to willfully bury their heads in the sand.

Facts? Look at the control group and the comparable players established a few pages ago. No surprize there haven't been any pro-player comments on that one.

Then come back with some analysis and logic on his salary.

Joke.

[Beach_Red]

Ok. Many non-athletes live beyond their means too. Check out a casino sometime.

Sad situation but not a reason to bail someone out in an employment situation by over-paying for their services.

And yet it happens all the time. As does renegotiating a contract before its term is up.

[Pookie]

3rd highest earning non-DP in the league is woefully underpaid?

sheesh

[scooter]

no one is burying there head in the sand here

in my opinion dero is overpaid period

its not tfc's responsibility to prepare for his retirement its his financial advisors

if he gets to old to play then he gets a job like the rest of us

god forbid we start treating pro athletes like politicians and they never have to work again

[Pookie]

And yet it happens all the time. As does renegotiating a contract before its term is up.

People get fired all the time too for insubordination. Income also goes down when performance suffers (ie lost commissions, pay cuts, poor industry performance).

Why are we only discussing an upside for this clown?

[scooter]

i have heard that in some countries if you win an olympic medal then you are set for life

from what i read here maybe the miracle in montreal is dero's gold cause it sounds like the other 10 men on the field didnt do much

[Beach_Red]

People get fired all the time too for insubordination. Income also goes down when performance suffers (ie lost commissions, pay cuts, poor industry performance).

Why are we only discussing an upside for this clown?

My concern is the potential downside for the team. Love him or hate him or don't care either way, the player will be gone one way or the other if not now then in no more than two years.

I'm optimistic that TFC is finally getting professional management but I still don't like the idea that they get to - once again, walk away from screwing something up. I don't just mean this trial, I mean everything to do with this player's time here.

I expect part of the deal the new management have is that Anselmi will no long make public statements about the possibility of renegotiating contracts. All they had to do was be honest from the beginning and say they wouldn't.

And I admire your use of the word "clown" to get the reaction to take the thread over the 50 page mark.

[ArmenJBX]

I can't wait for 4 years from now, when he's retired.
Roogsy will be fighting for an increased pension for De Rosario, and we will score no more than 15 goals a season because no one else will be able to score for us. Ever.

[Pookie]

^ *crossing fingers for 50*

Maybe they were willing to renegotiate... down... from their previous contract number?

According to some, MLSE didn't screw up this player's time here. This player apparently over-performed relative the contract he signed. I guess De Ro supporters are saying that MLSE/Mo were smart to evaluate his talent as having upside and shrewd businessmen to get him at that contracted rate.

Isn't that what we want in a management team? To identify and evaluate talent accurately. Get the player on the upside of their career. At the same time, don't overpay for it as you handcuff yourself in a capped/DP world.

So in effect, is the Pro-DeRo camp actually endorsing the previous management team led by Mo???

[Beach_Red]

^ maybe this will take us over 50.

In sports evaluation has to include more than just talent, doesn't it? All those intangibles people love to talk about?

And in terms of how managment handled this player, the rumour is that theynwanted the contract signed quickly and told him if he performed really well they'd be willing to renegotiate. So maybe that promise got extra productivity out him and that's good, but he would have spread the word to other players so it's not a motivator they can use again.

Because many teams do renegotiate mid-contract that's also a tactic that TFC should leave open to themselves and that can only happen if they do it once in while. The worrying thing here is this seems to be the same tactic they uaed with the original coaching staff - take this contract now and if things go well we'll give you a better one - and that may have hurt the development of the team.

Anyway, the team seems to be entering a new stage so these tactics will probably change - the team's financial success isn't so much in doubt and there's money in the bank.

[ensco]

If Dero were simply released from the option year, and was a true free agent, I think he'd get 400K on a one year deal, probably from Vancouver.

You're welcome.

[ag futbol]

Isn't that what we want in a management team? To identify and evaluate talent accurately. Get the player on the upside of their career. At the same time, don't overpay for it as you handcuff yourself in a capped/DP world.

So in effect, is the Pro-DeRo camp actually endorsing the previous management team led by Mo???
Yes, it's good that they actually managed to sign one player who out performed his salary.

What looks bad (if you believe anything the opposite side is saying) is that he promised a whole bunch of other things as well that he subsequently never followed through on, which i find more than plausible considering the way other guys around here were treated.

[torontocelt]

I can't wait for 4 years from now, when he's retired.
Roogsy will be fighting for an increased pension for De Rosario, and we will score no more than 15 goals a season because no one else will be able to score for us. Ever.

Peterson perhaps? He showed last season he has real potential and can easily become the MLS version of Ronaldo. I always thought playing on the same team as Dero was holding him back, no Dero equals 20 goals a season for Peterson.

[Waggy]

Guys be careful what you say: I heard a bunch of crabs were smack talking Dero over in the Uk and.... (sorry, just helping the drive for 50)


I just don't get all the angst about Dero being underpaid at all. I'll assume all the pro-dero people are TFC fans, wheres the outrage at Dan Gargans salary? Here is a WOEFULLY underpaid player who can LITERALLY barely afford to feed his family. Why aren't you all demanding he fly to Portugal to 'train' with Porto to gain leverage in renegotiating his contract? Why aren't people lining up equivalent players to illistrate how underpaid he is? If this isn't a personal thing, or an emotional carryover from one very big day from one player than Gargan is clearly the TFC player who needs our help getting a raise. And not a 400k raise either. Even 30-40k at his salary would make a huge huge difference. Don't see anyone crying for him though. Why? Cause hes a pro footballer who signed a contract and will play to the best of his abilities to try and get a bigger new contract at the nearest opportunity. He isn't making his plight an issue off the field, on the field or in the locker room. We're only talking about this because Dero made it an issue. All this bad press, all this negativity, Dero and his agent brought on all of it. Don't cry for Dero and his family, cry for Gargan.

I don't want any player, no matter how good he is, who believes he is bigger than the club. Even in a 'small time league' like MLS. You're either a part of the team or you're not. Dero has removed himself from the team, and other clubs all saw it. I can't imagine they're too interested in a guy who left on bad terms with his last 3 clubs (speaking of rewriting history, did everyone forget about Dero complaining for a year and a half about his salary in Houston before he was traded to Toronto? Didn't we wonder why a team like Houston would trade the guy who 'lead' them to a title for a 3rd round draft pick? Now we know. Cancer surgery)

[Yohan]

for those of you aren't familiar with DeRo's career, here's a pretty interesting article

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1589/canada/2011/01/05/2291810/the-saga-of-a-scrappy-player-from-canada

[Chevy]

So right now we have a pretty good control group:

Christian Gomez $321 (2009)
Brad Davis $258
Davy Arnaud $229
Clint Mathis $115 (2009)
Steve Ralston $150 (2009)
D. Ferreira $300k
Beckerman $250k


And some other comparables.....

Keller $300k
Cunningham $230k
C. Marshall $320
McBride $400k
C. Casey $350k
Hejduk $127
Donovan $2 Million


Where does this leave us? What's the players value? Anyone?




Waggy, here's some info from a few pages back. Seems the pro-dero folks conveniently ignore the evidence presented.

[scooter]

omg is this ever getting to 50

[Chevy]

omg is this ever getting to 50

Yes, it will definitely get to 50 (hoping that this is the post that does it).

[scooter]

Guys be careful what you say: I heard a bunch of crabs were smack talking Dero over in the Uk and.... (sorry, just helping the drive for 50)


I just don't get all the angst about Dero being underpaid at all. I'll assume all the pro-dero people are TFC fans, wheres the outrage at Dan Gargans salary? Here is a WOEFULLY underpaid player who can LITERALLY barely afford to feed his family. Why aren't you all demanding he fly to Portugal to 'train' with Porto to gain leverage in renegotiating his contract? Why aren't people lining up equivalent players to illistrate how underpaid he is? If this isn't a personal thing, or an emotional carryover from one very big day from one player than Gargan is clearly the TFC player who needs our help getting a raise. And not a 400k raise either. Even 30-40k at his salary would make a huge huge difference. Don't see anyone crying for him though. Why? Cause hes a pro footballer who signed a contract and will play to the best of his abilities to try and get a bigger new contract at the nearest opportunity. He isn't making his plight an issue off the field, on the field or in the locker room. We're only talking about this because Dero made it an issue. All this bad press, all this negativity, Dero and his agent brought on all of it. Don't cry for Dero and his family, cry for Gargan.

I don't want any player, no matter how good he is, who believes he is bigger than the club. Even in a 'small time league' like MLS. You're either a part of the team or you're not. Dero has removed himself from the team, and other clubs all saw it. I can't imagine they're too interested in a guy who left on bad terms with his last 3 clubs (speaking of rewriting history, did everyone forget about Dero complaining for a year and a half about his salary in Houston before he was traded to Toronto? Didn't we wonder why a team like Houston would trade the guy who 'lead' them to a title for a 3rd round draft pick? Now we know. Cancer surgery)

are we talking cut it out

[scooter]

no more post whores needed
where is workie ?

[scooter]

If Dero were simply released from the option year, and was a true free agent, I think he'd get 400K on a one year deal, probably from Vancouver.

You're welcome.

let them have him

[scooter]

come on you reds post whore away

[scooter]

50 boys lets do it

[scooter]

its the new year lets do it

[Waggy]

Waggy, here's some info from a few pages back. Seems the pro-dero folks conveniently ignore the evidence presented.

I saw. I made a tactical switch, logic won't win you this argument. Neither will evidence. That's why I went to the emotional plea: if any TFC player needs help feeding his family its Gargan, but nope. Dero and his whining prima dona ass take priority because he cries the loudest. I don't think Dero is over paid, but he certainly isn't underpaid. If a logical based argument won't work, a factual based argument won't work AND an emotional based argument won't work then you can pretty conclusively say they're all either insane or delusional.

(No offense guys, but I mean really. The pro-dero camp keeps shouting about us ignoring their factual evidence (aside- I've yet to see any real factual evidence that says Dero deserves a raise), but continously ignore actual data that disproves their point. That's a fallacy too, unfortunately Formal Logic 2085 was a ways back and fuck if I can remember all the terms so I can't go all Roogsy with a definition.)

[scooter]

50 come on 50

[Pigfynn]

50 pages on this? WTF?

[scooter]

maybe roogsy could be dero's financial advisor and then he wont need a raise

[scooter]

bump poster's

[scooter]

omg guys help out here

[Shakes McQueen]

It won't feel legitimate if you just push it over the finish line with garbage posts, haha.

- Scott

[Chevy]

I saw. I made a tactical switch, logic won't win you this argument. Neither will evidence. That's why I went to the emotional plea: if any TFC player needs help feeding his family its Gargan, but nope. Dero and his whining prima dona ass take priority because he cries the loudest. I don't think Dero is over paid, but he certainly isn't underpaid. If a logical based argument won't work, a factual based argument won't work AND an emotional based argument won't work then you can pretty conclusively say they're all either insane or delusional.

(No offense guys, but I mean really. The pro-dero camp keeps shouting about us ignoring their factual evidence (aside- I've yet to see any real factual evidence that says Dero deserves a raise), but continously ignore actual data that disproves their point. That's a fallacy too, unfortunately Formal Logic 2085 was a ways back and fuck if I can remember all the terms so I can't go all Roogsy with a definition.)

Yes, but logic makes them go away for a while. :D

[scooter]

It won't feel legitimate if you just push it over the finish line with garbage posts, haha.

- Scott

legitimate obviously has nothing to do with it just give me more money or i will fuck with you

[anonymiss]

It won't feel legitimate if you just push it over the finish line with garbage posts, haha.

- Scott

Aha, toucher.

[Blowing Bubbles]

how long do trials last? i thought 1 week?

i haven't read any noise about him signing a deal as of yet .... wtf we gonna do with him if he comes back with his tail between his legs?

[scooter]

Yes, but logic makes them go away for a while. :D

logic ?

[Chevy]

Aha, toucher.

Toucher where?

[anonymiss]

And we have a winner!

[scooter]

done good night all

[Pigfynn]

^^^hahahaha

[Chevy]

Only 27 more posts to 1,500. Come on!

[Pookie]

Nice to get to 50 but very valid point regarding Gargan (and Attakora).

Attakora, who is in a position for a new contract, should be getting our support. Gargan, being a quality individual, will likely play out his contract without a public embarrassing display.

If there are 2 more deserving players on TFC deserving of a raise, I'd love to hear it.

[Shakes McQueen]

I saw. I made a tactical switch, logic won't win you this argument. Neither will evidence. That's why I went to the emotional plea: if any TFC player needs help feeding his family its Gargan, but nope. Dero and his whining prima dona ass take priority because he cries the loudest. I don't think Dero is over paid, but he certainly isn't underpaid. If a logical based argument won't work, a factual based argument won't work AND an emotional based argument won't work then you can pretty conclusively say they're all either insane or delusional.

(No offense guys, but I mean really. The pro-dero camp keeps shouting about us ignoring their factual evidence (aside- I've yet to see any real factual evidence that says Dero deserves a raise), but continously ignore actual data that disproves their point. That's a fallacy too, unfortunately Formal Logic 2085 was a ways back and fuck if I can remember all the terms so I can't go all Roogsy with a definition.)

To date, all of the "evidence" I've seen, consists of as-of-yet unsourced hearsay about alleged promises made to DeRo during contract negotiations.

The "logical" argument usually circulates around sidestepping the entire debate, and asserting that we should give him whatever he wants, because he's our best player, and we would be lost in the wilderness without him. I lovingly refer to this argument as "pragmatism in a vacuum", or "keep stars happy at all costs.

The "emotional" argument, generally circulates around talking about how DeRo has given his all for this team, and produced above and beyond expectations, and therefore the team is honourbound to reward him with a raise.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

Nice to get to 50 but very valid point regarding Gargan (and Attakora).

Attakora, who is in a position for a new contract, should be getting our support. Gargan, being a quality individual, will likely play out his contract without a public embarrassing display.

If there are 2 more deserving players on TFC deserving of a raise, I'd love to hear it.

So, except for picking up Nathan Sturgis, it looks like the interim management has been leaving all personel decisions - no new contracts for Attakora or Cann and not picking up any options or renegotiating - that's a very good sign.

[Waggy]

To date, all of the "evidence" I've seen, consists of as-of-yet unsourced hearsay about alleged promises made to DeRo during contract negotiations.

The "logical" argument usually circulates around sidestepping the entire debate, and asserting that we should give him whatever he wants, because he's our best player, and we would be lost in the wilderness without him. I lovingly refer to this argument as "pragmatism in a vacuum", or "keep stars happy at all costs.

The "emotional" argument, generally circulates around talking about how DeRo has given his all for this team, and produced above and beyond expectations, and therefore the team is honourbound to reward him with a raise.

- Scott

That's all I've seen too. That's what's irritating me with their position. If Dero deserves a doubling of his salary because of blood, sweat and tears so do 4 or 5 other guys. And they could use the money a LOT more than Dero. And they don't have a history of complaining about their contracts. Normally the longer these things go the more I soften my angry stance against whomever. But with this Dero thing the more I think about it the more it bothers me. At this point I'm not even wishing him well once he leaves. I'm not praying for an injury (a-la Vince Carter) yet, but another few weeks without an apology or at least an explanation from Dero and I'll be there. If it wasn't for the miracle in Montreal this thread dies at 10 pages when people say "Thanks for everything, don't let the door hit you on the way out". It was a great great win and a day I wont forget (and I wasn't even there), and I certainly won't forget Deros contributions that day but it's time to move on. Live in the present/future. In a capped league we can't reward players purely for the past


*Edited to not sound liike I'm stomping on the Miracle in Montreal.

[Batman]

After 50 pages, and virtually no news I think every damn argument has been made.

It's time to close this until there is some real news. We've debated it to death.

[Shakes McQueen]

Is that really a good reason to close a thread?

- Scott

[Auzzy]

Paging Dero, paging Dero: new bosses in town as of 1pm on Thursday. I suggest you catch the early flight back to Toronto. Or just book a permanent vacation for you & your family.

[ginkster88]

Really... he's already making the max he could under the cap, MLSE has bottomless pockets so giving him a raise wouldn't hurt the team, Stars in every league are overpaid all the time (especially in soccer, it's practically perfunctory), regardless of relative performance, its part of sports. He shouldn't have signed a contract he didn't like, it's his agent's job to get him one of those funny-money contracts, if he had a handshake deal he should have said NO, the cheque-signing incident was too much and ill-advised.

It's not unreasonable for him to want a raise. Funnymoney contracts happen ALL THE TIME in sports, players are RARELY paid for their performance in relation to their peers. Therefore these ridiculous comparative lists justifying Dero's current price point are moot.
This doesn't justify his behaviour, and he's had poor management throughout his time with TFC, from the sounds of it.

There is no resolution to this and he has worn out his welcome in TO, for better or worse.

[Roogsy]

To date, all of the "evidence" I've seen, consists of as-of-yet unsourced hearsay about alleged promises made to DeRo during contract negotiations.

99% of everything we know about TFC is "hearsay". Hearsay's only objectionable value is in a court of law. I am more certain of the promises made to DeRo than I am of anything else in this entire drama. I have heard it directly from people involved in the negotiations. I don't know how concrete you want your evidence unless you want to hear it directly from people who were in the room, read the fax, read the email or whatever. If that is the burden of proof you want, it is an impossible task and a demand that isn't even demanded of journalists.


The "logical" argument usually circulates around sidestepping the entire debate, and asserting that we should give him whatever he wants, because he's our best player, and we would be lost in the wilderness without him. I lovingly refer to this argument as "pragmatism in a vacuum", or "keep stars happy at all costs.

I would have expected more from you than this absurd exaggeration and misinterpretation of our position. Either you are being intentionally obtuse or you there are difficulties in your comprehension, but this is most certainly not the position I have advocated nor do I believe it to be of others who are more inclined to give DeRo the benefit of the doubt.


The "emotional" argument, generally circulates around talking about how DeRo has given his all for this team, and produced above and beyond expectations, and therefore the team is honourbound to reward him with a raise.

Same as above.

[Oldtimer]

Is that really a good reason to close a thread?

- Scott

As long as people are being civil, and not spamming, etc., why should there be a problem?

If one doesn't like it, one doesn't have to read it.

Those who want to re-hash the same arguments over and over are free to do so. :) It will keep them out of trouble. :D

Anyways, it seems that productive discussion ceased when DeRoogsy didn't post what he thought was a reasonable wage for DeRo. I suggest we boycott this thread until he comes up with a figure. :D

[Shakes McQueen]

99% of everything we know about TFC is "hearsay". Hearsay's only objectionable value is in a court of law. I am more certain of the promises made to DeRo than I am of anything else in this entire drama. I have heard it directly from people involved in the negotiations. I don't know how concrete you want your evidence unless you want to hear it directly from people who were in the room, read the fax, read the email or whatever. If that is the burden of proof you want, it is an impossible task and a demand that isn't even demanded of journalists.

Repeating information from a primary source isn't hearsay, and you've still yet to tell any of us who these people are you're getting the information from, so we can objectively decide if the source might be at all biased in the matter. You're still ultimately saying "just trust me on this", when the information you're getting could quite easily be cooloured and biased from the POV of one side of the dispute (I'm going to go out on a limb and say biased in DeRo's favour).

And yes, credible sources are a requirement of proper journalism. So is having named sources, save for very specific circumstances, because it prevents reporters from being used as intermediaries for one side in a dispute, to distort the public opinion - such as, say, a contract dispute.


I would have expected more from you than this absurd exaggeration and misinterpretation of our position. Either you are being intentionally obtuse or you there are difficulties in your comprehension, but this is most certainly not the position I have advocated nor do I believe it to be of others who are more inclined to give DeRo the benefit of the doubt.

You most certainly have argued precisely that what DeRo makes is irrelevant, and that keeping him happy as a star player is more important. What you "believe the positions of others" are, is of no value to me, or this discussion.


Same as above.

I've also most certainly seen you make this argument (in fact, I drew the inspiration for this point specifically from a debate I recalled having with you a couple of months ago about DeRo, in a different thread). That, of course, was before the whole "DeRo the hero" bubble had been thoroughly popped by his subsequent actions.

- Scott

[Chevy]

I'm still looking for a very simply answer from Roogsy - "what is your player worth?"

[TFCRegina]

Waggy, here's some info from a few pages back. Seems the pro-dero folks conveniently ignore the evidence presented.

Actually we addressed it and nobody there has the track record of success that De Ro has. Stop being facetious and actually read what people write.

I guess that's demanding a lot out of you though Chevy. Basic literacy seems to be in short supply these days.

[Shakes McQueen]

Oh, I should also add that reporting on both sides of a dispute is also a basic journalistic tenet, instead of simply accepting an account of events from one side. Especially if that source is an agent, or a player who is unhappy with their contract.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Repeating information from a primary source isn't hearsay, and you've still yet to tell any of us who these people are you're getting the information from, so we can objectively decide if the source might be at all biased in the matter. You're still ultimately saying "just trust me on this", when the information you're getting could quite easily be cooloured and biased from the POV of one side of the dispute (I'm going to go out on a limb and say biased in DeRo's favour).

Actually, those I have spoken have been both on the DeRo side AND the TFC side of the equation. I do have more sources than the DeRo camp. Believe me, don't believe me. I don't particularly care, but I do begin to care when you call my integrity into question.


And yes, credible sources are a requirement of proper journalism. So is having named sources, save for very specific circumstances, because it prevents reporters from being used as intermediaries for one side in a dispute, to distort the public opinion.

Credible sources and named sources are two different things. I have credible sources, and I could name them if I want to but I would be burning relationships in order to appease curiosity nothing more. Hardly a satisfactory risk/reward equation. I pass along information I receive directly from those involved in any particular situation and in fact always ask if I can share the info. Many times I am asked to reserve it and therefore honour their wishes. If your requirement is that I reveal my sources in order for you to believe me, then your choices are the following: Don't believe me, don't follow what I have to say or believe me based on whatever other credibility requirements you have. I of course, have the choice to reveal information or not. As it seems to be more trouble than it's worth, my inclination after this debacle has been to reserve that information for those on this board who have valued the information I have afforded them over the years and never called my integrity into question. What you are not entitled to is to know where I get my information. Interestingly enough, I don't see you asking others with inside information to reveal their sources or you deny their credibility. I look forward to seeing more of that from you.

That being said, you have never presented information that counters the information I have provided so I would simply assume you don't believe what I have to say not because you have evidence that my information is incorrect but because you simply do not want to believe it because it damages the position you are arguing.


You most certainly have argued precisely that what DeRo makes is irrelevant, and that keeping him happy as a star player is more important. What you "believe the positions of others" are, is of no value to me, or this discussion.

Again misinterpreting my position. I have certainly made DeRo's happiness an issue because I believe him and any player performs better when contract issues are not front of mind, however, my position has never been to pay DeRo whatever he demands and your asserting this as being my position is dishonest.


I've also most certainly seen you make this argument (in fact, I drew the inspiration for this point specifically from a debate I recalled having with you a couple of months ago about DeRo, in a different thread). That, of course, was before the whole "DeRo the hero" bubble had been thoroughly popped by his subsequent actions.

Again a thorough mischaracterization of my position. My position has not been and never has been for any player that they should be paid anything they demand. I don't believe that for DeRo or any other player for that matter. In fact, I point to several posts, even in this particular thread, where I specifically state the value that I would pay DeRo in any type of renegotiation. That in itself counters any assertion that TFC give in to any demand he makes.

If your miscomprehension of previous posts has led you to believe these are my positions, I certainly this last post better clarifies things for you.

[Chevy]

Actually we addressed it and nobody there has the track record of success that De Ro has. Stop being facetious and actually read what people write.

I guess that's demanding a lot out of you though Chevy. Basic literacy seems to be in short supply these days.

Oh yeah, I forgot. You came back with the brilliant theory where you would pay the player $1.5 million supported by.....nothing other than "Landon makes $2m".

My apologies, genius.

[Roogsy]

Oh, I should also add that reporting on both sides of a dispute is also a basic journalistic tenet, instead of simply accepting an account of events from one side. Especially if that source is an agent, or a player who is unhappy with their contract.

- Scott


And I look forward to seeing you demand that those providing inside information on this board be held to journalistic standards so that you believe them.

[TFCRegina]

Oh yeah, I forgot. You came back with the brilliant theory where you would pay the player $1.5 million supported by.....nothing other than "Landon makes $2m".

My apologies, genius.

You can't name a single player who has produced as many trophies, goals and assists OVER a career in MLS other than Landon Donovan.

That's the justification. If it hasn't gotten through to you, nothing will and you're not worth having any conversation with because you're the type of person who trolls for the sake of trolling.

Ignored.

[Chevy]

You can't name a single player who has produced as many trophies, goals and assists OVER a career in MLS other than Landon Donovan.

That's the justification. If it hasn't gotten through to you, nothing will and you're not worth having any conversation with because you're the type of person who trolls for the sake of trolling.

Ignored.

Likewise.

[Roogsy]

As long as people are being civil, and not spamming, etc., why should there be a problem?

If one doesn't like it, one doesn't have to read it.

Those who want to re-hash the same arguments over and over are free to do so. :) It will keep them out of trouble. :D

Anyways, it seems that productive discussion ceased when DeRoogsy didn't post what he thought was a reasonable wage for DeRo. I suggest we boycott this thread until he comes up with a figure. :D

When was that asked? If it was Chevy that asked it, I have him on ignore as per his own wishes. It was just easier to avoid reading illogical ramblings.

But I am disappointed in you Oldtimer. You'd think that you would have done the legwork necessary not to look foolish, but maybe as an "oldtimer" your legs aren't what they used to be? LOL! I did state what I would have paid DeRo, several times in several threads. But because you took that shot at me, I will repay you by making you go and look for it. :lol:

[wzhxvy]

I cant wait for Dero to come back to Canada with his tail between his legs and try to sell us on his "training" with Celtic...

[Shakes McQueen]

And I look forward to seeing you demand that those providing inside information on this board be held to journalistic standards so that you believe them.

Offering up rumours and scuttlebutt is one thing. Using information as the basis of your position in a debate, requires a higher standard of credibility.

I'm also going to guess that you, like me, take most rumours offered up on this website with a grain of salt already, until they are substantiated by either further evidence, or the naming of the source.

- Scott

[Waggy]

You can't name a single player who has produced as many trophies, goals and assists OVER a career in MLS other than Landon Donovan.

That's the justification. If it hasn't gotten through to you, nothing will and you're not worth having any conversation with because you're the type of person who trolls for the sake of trolling.

Ignored.

So any production that occurs outside of MLS is meaningless to what a player is worth inside the MLS? The open market is the open market. Dero could theoretically have taken a contract anywhere in the world during his career. He could have gone to England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Portugal, The Netherlands etc and made way more money and gotten more prestige. But he didn't. Since clearly what Dero wants is money, and theres no way in hell you can sit here and tell me otherwise given the 50 pages of discussion caused by him leaving demanding more money, then we can say Dero didn't leave because he wasn't good enough to. So because he was in that perfect spot where he was a top player in MLS but not good enough to advance to a better league than he should make more money than players who've plied their trade in more difficult leagues? They should be punished for having bigger goals and dreams? They should be punished for being BETTER than Dero? Is that the argument you're making?

[Shakes McQueen]

Interestingly enough, I don't see you asking others with inside information to reveal their sources or you deny their credibility. I look forward to seeing more of that from you.

In situations where anonymous sources form the basis of someone's position in a debate, I will absolutely question the credibility of sources.

You aren't entitled to have your anonymous sources deemed credible by default. No one is. And it has nothing to do with your personal intergrity. By the same token, taking the rumours of others from "credible sources" with a grain of salt, has nothing to do with their personal integrity.


That being said, you have never presented information that counters the information I have provided so I would simply assume you don't believe what I have to say not because you have evidence that my information is incorrect but because you simply do not want to believe it because it damages the position you are arguing.

I've limited my positions on this matter to what I have gleaned from observable evidence, and logical inference. I haven't leaned on secret sources one way or another. I've offered no anonymous sources to bolster my position, nor to challenge yours.

It has nothing to do with what I "want" to believe. It has to do with what the evidence shows me. A player doesn't accept promises to renegotiate his contract after a couple of years, then sign a four year contract with two TEAM OPTION YEARS.

And I don't tend to just accept the credibility of anonymous sources, without being able to critically assess the sources of that information.


Again misinterpreting my position. I have certainly made DeRo's happiness an issue because I believe him and any player performs better when contract issues are not front of mind, however, my position has never been to pay DeRo whatever he demands and your asserting this as being my position is dishonest.

Fair enough. This isn't worth digressing into finer detail over.


Again a thorough mischaracterization of my position. My position has not been and never has been for any player that they should be paid anything they demand. I don't believe that for DeRo or any other player for that matter. In fact, I point to several posts, even in this particular thread, where I specifically state the value that I would pay DeRo in any type of renegotiation. That in itself counters any assertion that TFC give in to any demand he makes.

Your position as explicity stated earlier in this thread, was that what DeRo makes should be irrelevant to all of us, unless it essentially financially hamstrings the team. The fact that you told us what you think he's worth, doesn't change that.

- Scott