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twistedchinaman
12-27-2010, 07:57 AM
If I had coffee in my mouth, I would've spat it out laughing.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/editor-s-picks/dwayne-s-world-1.1076656#have-your-say




(If this has been posted already, merge or delete.)

BASE
12-27-2010, 08:04 AM
If I had coffee in my mouth, I would've spat it out laughing.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/editor-s-picks/dwayne-s-world-1.1076656#have-your-say




(If this has been posted already, merge or delete.)

This is shocking news!!! What type of reputation does this paper have???

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 08:19 AM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=25724

There was a thread already about the possibility of this happening, but this seems to be updated info of Lenny actually confirming he is coming over to train and that. It was just a lot of speculation before

menefreghista
12-27-2010, 08:42 AM
Not sure why this is laughable.

twistedchinaman
12-27-2010, 08:57 AM
^ Laughable because...well, it's just funny.

Seriously? I mean first Ljungberg and now DeRo? Celtic..what are they thinking?

Krasno.pL.
12-27-2010, 09:00 AM
both players would hold their own no problems in that crap league.

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 09:12 AM
^^yes the SPL is by no means one of the top leagues in Europe, but the Old Firm and maybe even add in Hibs could beat pretty well any MLS team, and most of the others would provide decent games. Not sure how many SPL games you watch, but I watch every weekend. The SPL is also a MUCH more physical league than MLS.

twistedchinaman, I'm guessing this is because as of right now Celtic have been in a bit of a slump, they had 3 straight draws until they won 2-0 this weekend and both goals came in extra time. Our top striker is out for 6 weeks and could probably use some more attacking options, even from the mid. I would highly doubt these 2 would be starters if they came, but could good bench players to come in and provide some more attack minded football.
Personally I think there are others I would rather see in the hoops that we could frab from Europe, but I don't think these 2 would be bad at all and would enjoy seeing DeRo in the green and white

twistedchinaman
12-27-2010, 09:18 AM
Question is...how much would MLS need to be paid before they let both of 'em go?

Could this be a loan spell? I doubt it...

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 09:23 AM
I agree with TFC Bhoy in his suggestion that the SPL takes a little too much stick in terms of being a rubbish league. I think a lot of it comes from their recent performance in Europe and their geographic proximity to England, which has the best league, arguably, and the best second division in Europe.

I'm a little surprised at seeing Celtic come in for two MLS players. Why would TFC agree to let De Ro trial with an eye to a loan? What's in it for them?

Carts
12-27-2010, 09:28 AM
If I had coffee in my mouth, I would've spat it out laughing.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/editor-s-picks/dwayne-s-world-1.1076656#have-your-say

(If this has been posted already, merge or delete.)

I don't get why its funny...

Its a catch 22 for some of us... I want to see him do well and play at a high level - but at the same time don't want to lose him from TFC...

Carts...

Carts
12-27-2010, 09:32 AM
I agree with TFC Bhoy in his suggestion that the SPL takes a little too much stick in terms of being a rubbish league. I think a lot of it comes from their recent performance in Europe and their geographic proximity to England, which has the best league, arguably, and the best second division in Europe.

I'm a little surprised at seeing Celtic come in for two MLS players. Why would TFC agree to let De Ro trial with an eye to a loan? What's in it for them?

I'm just totally speculating but, with Dero obviously unhappy with the team last season, and reports of him leaving for another MLS club, maybe this was a compromise of "....we'll allow Dero to go to Europe on loan, and he returns to TFC in June..."

Again, I'm just guessing and throwing out thoughts...

Its a catch 22 for me (like I said before), I want him to do well and love to see Canadians do well in Europe, but I want to keep him on TFC...

Carts...

Brooker
12-27-2010, 09:40 AM
please don't get injured while you're over there, dwayne. that's all i ask.

torontocelt
12-27-2010, 10:02 AM
Celtic badly need two centre back and a right back before anything else. We also need a goalie. Lenny I feel is out of his depth, the problems are clear to see. I don't see the need for lyndberg or dero at Celtic park, we need first team players who will improve the team and not more squad players.

Pigfynn
12-27-2010, 10:04 AM
So...

Go from being the big fish in the little TFC pond (where all the staff and coaches have respect for you and you are admired as a star player) to a tiny fish in Scottish pond -sitting on a freezing cold bench in the rain, where NO ONE knows who you are... all for what?

a bit of a raise for a few months before you are made to come back?

This is a strange decision on Dwayne's part and TFC should say no. Tell him you'll give him $100,000 more a year and to shut up about it already.

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 10:08 AM
I completely agree that center backs are first and foremost what Celtic need (BADLY), after that I would want another pure striker. With hooper out, looks like Sammy is gonna be sold in Jan so we don't lose him for nothing. That leaves just Stokes and Murphy up front. But I wouldn't be upset with getting these 2.

Although I do agree with most people that even as a Celtic fan I would like to see DeRo go there, I want him back at TFC, I think TFC need him far more than Celtic do as he would most likely just be a bench player anyways.
I too am afraid of him getting injured as well as the SPL is a very rough league and would be really upset if he went out there on loan and got injured for the MLS season

James17930
12-27-2010, 10:10 AM
First -- is this for a loan or a regular contract?

Pookie
12-27-2010, 10:14 AM
This is a strange decision on Dwayne's part and TFC should say no. Tell him you'll give him $100,000 more a year and to shut up about it already.

^ Because he is near the league max salary for non-DPs, to give him a $100k raise means he would also get the DP tag.

A DP Tag should also come with a certain level of leadership. Good luck overseas Dwayne.

Pachuco
12-27-2010, 10:18 AM
So...

Go from being the big fish in the little TFC pond (where all the staff and coaches have respect for you and you are admired as a star player) to a tiny fish in Scottish pond -sitting on a freezing cold bench in the rain, where NO ONE knows who you are... all for what?

a bit of a raise for a few months before you are made to come back?

This is a strange decision on Dwayne's part and TFC should say no. Tell him you'll give him $100,000 more a year and to shut up about it already.

Nah, I don't think there is anything strange about this decision. Dero's been the big fish in the little MLS pond for a long time. Has never really been rewarded for it financially. Maybe he just wants to prove to himself and others that he IS good enough for Europe. Even if it's for a short spell. You can't fault a guy for wanting to play at a higher level, even if he knows there's a chance he won't get much playing time.

Alixir
12-27-2010, 10:35 AM
Dwayne...................take JDG with you.

Pigfynn
12-27-2010, 10:39 AM
^ Because he is near the league max salary for non-DPs, to give him a $100k raise means he would also get the DP tag.

A DP Tag should also come with a certain level of leadership. Good luck overseas Dwayne.

I know it would make him a DP. We still need him even though he's a bad leader...he's a very good player and we don't any of those.


Nah, I don't think there is anything strange about this decision. Dero's been the big fish in the little MLS pond for a long time. Has never really been rewarded for it financially. Maybe he just wants to prove to himself and others that he IS good enough for Europe. Even if it's for a short spell. You can't fault a guy for wanting to play at a higher level, even if he knows there's a chance he won't get much playing time.

It is strange if he's just going for a few months and then coming back to reinsert himself into our "lower level" team. What is gained here? DeRo satisfied that he has "proven himself" and made slightly more money for 5 months? I just don't get it.

Damien
12-27-2010, 10:58 AM
I really think DeRo's just trolling for more money from TFC.

"Hey look, Celtic is interested in me! If you wanna keep me (happy) then give me more money or let me go"

prizby
12-27-2010, 11:00 AM
I completely agree that center backs are first and foremost what Celtic need (BADLY), after that I would want another pure striker. With hooper out, looks like Sammy is gonna be sold in Jan so we don't lose him for nothing. That leaves just Stokes and Murphy up front. But I wouldn't be upset with getting these 2.

Although I do agree with most people that even as a Celtic fan I would like to see DeRo go there, I want him back at TFC, I think TFC need him far more than Celtic do as he would most likely just be a bench player anyways.
I too am afraid of him getting injured as well as the SPL is a very rough league and would be really upset if he went out there on loan and got injured for the MLS season

selling artur boruc has backfired
Effrain Juarez can play right back, thats what he played in the FC Barca youth set up.

Kyle_121
12-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Dwayne...................take JDG with you.

+1 to this.

torontocelt
12-27-2010, 11:08 AM
Celtic had no option with Boruc, he wanted to leave badly. The mistake we made was thinking that Zaluska would be capable, he has proven he is not. Juarez can play RB but for whatever reason he is not fancied much by the manager, I liked him when I seen him initially but he has dropped out of favor a lot. Celtic's big weak point is their defense and GK, these issues should be addressed before anything else. Lennon it seems just takes a look to see who is available for cheap, it doesn't matter where they play, if they are cheap then bring them in. It is not how you sort out a teams problems.

LesH
12-27-2010, 11:12 AM
Dwayne...................take JDG with you.

Another +1 to this.

Pookie
12-27-2010, 11:15 AM
I really think DeRo's just trolling for more money from TFC.

"Hey look, Celtic is interested in me! If you wanna keep me (happy) then give me more money or let me go"

I wouldn't go down the route of creative bargaining. I think this is more basic than that.

He was promised money and status here that didn't materialize. We (Mo) put him in a corner by announcing his arrival and then offered him a contract less than what was promised.

We then brought in JDG with the status promised to DeRo and the cash truck to boot.

He is rightfully pissed at how the situation unfolded and is looking at his options. If my employer screwed me over on promises, I'd be looking at options too.

It would be good if we could make nice with him, make it all right and show the "respect".

That said, to do that requires the DP tag I still don't think he is DP tag worthy based on the fact that he isn't a leader. Good player, absolutely. But like JDG, not the best use of the DP slot.

So, with no ill will, I wish him the best of luck overseas.

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 11:28 AM
^ sure, wish him luck, but whatev problems were caised by the previous management there's been plenty of time to correct it. Many, many fans wanted DeRo on this team and were quite vocal about it, so the team aquired him - this put DeRo in a very good bargaining position and he got the most he could have without being a DP. Then fans demanded a DP (and on this board started many threads for JDG specifically) and the organization went and got him.

But whatever happened then, we're supposed to believe there is a new management in
place that can do what it wants. Anything that has happened at TFC since last September is on the current management and we really sholdn't let them get away with the easy excuse of blaming people who were fired months ago.

Damien
12-27-2010, 11:29 AM
The BIG question is... if you let DeRo go, who do you replace him with?

Waggy
12-27-2010, 11:33 AM
If it's a sale, I hope he commands a decent fee. The Dero Roof would be a nice legacy. Maybe we have Mo to thank for this somehow? (or blame, depending on your POV)

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 11:33 AM
This is awesome stuff if true. Good luck wherever you go, Dwayne.

This isn't a player around which we can rebuild our club, both because of his personality and because of the unstoppable advance of time. I know this is contingent on us finding a competent GM, but DeRo's salary would be well spent on a few much younger guys with potential upside and a point to prove.

Now, if we can somehow shake off the DeGuzman contract, that would really be fantastic.

Waggy
12-27-2010, 11:34 AM
The BIG question is... if you let DeRo go, who do you replace him with?

In a perfect world someone younger and cheaper who has yet to be discovered by us fans. In the TFC world, probably King Dave

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 11:39 AM
Celtic had no option with Boruc, he wanted to leave badly. The mistake we made was thinking that Zaluska would be capable, he has proven he is not. Juarez can play RB but for whatever reason he is not fancied much by the manager, I liked him when I seen him initially but he has dropped out of favor a lot. Celtic's big weak point is their defense and GK, these issues should be addressed before anything else. Lennon it seems just takes a look to see who is available for cheap, it doesn't matter where they play, if they are cheap then bring them in. It is not how you sort out a teams problems.
I agree with you for the most part, but I like FF in goal, he has proved much better than Zaluska hence how he stole the #1 title from him. But aside from that one horrid blunder of a goal kick vs rangers (worst possible game to make his mistake) but i think that is the only real problem he has had. In fact I think he has stolen us points before with some great keeping. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to make that loan deal perminant.
I like Wilson at RB over Juarez. In past seasons he hasn't been anything special but I think the games hes played this season have been really good. Too bad Hinkel is still injured too, I was always a big fan of him and hear he will probably be heading back to Germany in the summer too

Pookie
12-27-2010, 11:39 AM
^ sure, wish him luck, but whatev problems were caised by the previous management there's been plenty of time to correct it. Many, many fans wanted DeRo on this team and were quite vocal about it, so the team aquired him - this put DeRo in a very good bargaining position and he got the most he could have without being a DP. Then fans demanded a DP (and on this board started many threads for JDG specifically) and the organization went and got him.

But whatever happened then, we're supposed to believe there is a new management in
place that can do what it wants. Anything that has happened at TFC since last September is on the current management and we really sholdn't let them get away with the easy excuse of blaming people who were fired months ago.

The issue in correcting it with new management is the reason I wish him luck. If other clubs have DPs like Castillo, Marquez, Nkufo, Montero we clearly need to do better than DeRo (and especially JDG).

This problem really doesn't have a solution that benefits TFC if you want to keep him, IMO. DeRo as a DP isn't a leader, he's older, hasn't led us anywhere in his good seasons and is one less DP slot.

The best option might be allocation money received on a transfer and cap space.

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 11:40 AM
Dwayne...................take JDG with you.
dear god no. He can go to Rangers though :D lol

Alixir
12-27-2010, 11:45 AM
dear god no. He can go to Rangers though :D lollol true that!

jimiv
12-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Dwayne...................take JDG with you.

add another +1 to this...

:drum:

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 12:18 PM
The issue in correcting it with new management is the reason I wish him luck. If other clubs have DPs like Castillo, Marquez, Nkufo, Montero we clearly need to do better than DeRo (and especially JDG).

This problem really doesn't have a solution that benefits TFC if you want to keep him, IMO. DeRo as a DP isn't a leader, he's older, hasn't led us anywhere in his good seasons and is one less DP slot.

The best option might be allocation money received on a transfer and cap space.

Yes, that's true, what's the solution that benefits TFC? All we know now is that letting the situation continue with no solution - no resolution - in sight is bad for the team. At the moment there's really no leadership in managment. If DeRo manages to arrange a new deal at a new team, then good luck to him, but if he doesn't and stays with TFC and the situation just drags on through next season, how big a problem will it become?

Yagbod
12-27-2010, 12:22 PM
I would rather trade/sell outright than loan him out. We would need him replaced right away or else the first half of the season could be grim. (and that is usually when we win most of our games...)

I hope this is just salary posturing.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 12:26 PM
Yes, that's true, what's the solution that benefits TFC? All we know now is that letting the situation continue with no solution - no resolution - in sight is bad for the team. At the moment there's really no leadership in managment. If DeRo manages to arrange a new deal at a new team, then good luck to him, but if he doesn't and stays with TFC and the situation just drags on through next season, how big a problem will it become?


This is my issue. I know people believe I want DeRo here at any cost but that is simply not true. If MLSE does not want to arrange a contract for him that he is happy with, then let him go to where he would be happy and resolve the situation once and for all. They let it fester all last season until the unfortunate incident and therefore share the blame for the ill-will between him and the FO. Letting it go another season will just get ugly. Nobody wants to play for a team that they feel has screwed them in the first place. Whatever their decision, it needs to happen this off-season.

ManUtd4ever
12-27-2010, 12:28 PM
I thought DeRo squashed this rumour via his Twitter account a couple of weeks ago...

EDIT - My bad, he squashed the San Jose rumour, which means a loan to Celtic is quite possible, and bad news for TFC if he misses the first 2 months of the MLS schedule...

aboveandbeyond
12-27-2010, 12:38 PM
I hope dero stays .. It would be hard if not impossible to replace his goal production..

special chad will not match that tally of dero's

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 12:46 PM
I hope dero stays .. It would be hard if not impossible to replace his goal production..

special chad will not match that tally of dero's

People around here seem to think it is. :rolleyes:

They probably need another scoreless summer to remind them how inept this team was at scoring before DeRo arrived.

king dave
12-27-2010, 12:47 PM
I think Derosario has had his best days here in Toronto (mind you, nothing to show for it:rolleyes:).
And at 32 I can't see him fit all season working as hard as he has been.
He has been the 'workhorse' of this Toronto club and maybe it is time to let this 'workhorse' go to stud. And "stud" would be a league where the caliber of players/owners would facilitate the talent he still has to play the game.
KD.

wzhxvy
12-27-2010, 12:47 PM
He is getting older, the window to make money is closing quickly, and his desperation is so obvious, I have to think it has hurt his chances. 100 to 200K in allocation for the 2011 season is all he deserves and should get paid. If he does well, then he can get that the following year.

Pookie
12-27-2010, 12:53 PM
I agree with you guys, it needs to be resolved this off season and I would hope it doesn't involve a "loan" scenario.

Should he return without a new contract, we've got an in-season contract squabble.

We might have an immediate cap issue too. I'm not sure how the cap would apply specifically but I would assume that he does not count against our cap while on loan but would immediately count upon his return.

Either or, it isn't good planning to go into a season with a significant question mark at this position. Then again, when has TFC been about forward planning :(

drewski
12-27-2010, 01:04 PM
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/858075?campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5901

Super Cereal
12-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If he sticks, this would be the worst offseason in TFC history. Amazing how incompetently this team is run.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 01:25 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If he sticks, this would be the worst offseason in TFC history. Amazing how incompetently this team is run.


Yes DeRo, take your 30+ goals with you...we don't need them. We've got Chad Barrett! :rolleyes:

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 01:27 PM
The original thread on this topic seemed to indicate that it would be a loan situation. If that's the case, I wonder if TFC gets a break on his cap hit?

king dave
12-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Amazing how incompetently this team is run.

It really does test your patience as a supporter, yes?
Well let's all hope a vast number of Ontario teachers retire in the next year or two, which I think may be the only way to get these fucking 'dbags' out of the professional Toronto sports franchise business.
Larry T may be the biggest problem though.
KD.

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 01:29 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic/8227089/Celtic-target-Dwayne-De-Rosario-is-a-bit-special-says-Paul-Dalglish.html

Another story on De Ro to Celtic, a little meaty than the earlier piece.

king dave
12-27-2010, 01:32 PM
The original thread on this topic seemed to indicate that it would be a loan situation. If that's the case, I wonder if TFC gets a break on his cap hit?
I think that is what is happening here.
They have a look at him, use him sparingly and he keeps match fit.
This is what I believe to be happening.
Celtic are in 'emerg' mode I think; grabbing from anywhere in an attempt to stop the fall.
Doing well in SPL but internationally ($$$) failing to move forward.
KD.

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 01:36 PM
^ I assume so too, the classic "try before you buy" situation.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 01:38 PM
Dalglish, who stepped down as coach of FC Tampa Bay in September, is convinced that De Rosario can have a similar impact.
“I hope that this comes off because Celtic fans will love Dwayne,” he said. “However, like Lubo, they’ll see his class and probably wish that they had signed him five years earlier.
“Dwayne is a bit special. He’s one of these guys who can make something happen out of nothing: a real X-Factor player.
“There’s a compilation of his goals in YouTube and you should do yourself a favour and take a look at it: he scores the kind of special goals that Matt Le Tissier used to get.
“He has the ability to do something different that can change matches and, with no disrespect to Freddie Ljungberg, Dwayne’s done a lot more in the MLS than Freddy has in the last couple of years.
“Dwayne is something of a free-kick specialist but, unlike a lot of skilful players, he also works his socks off for the team.”
It seems former fellow players have more appreciation for him than the supporters of his own hometown team.

There's an old proverb in the Bible: "A prophet is not welcome in his hometown" and it applies well to situations where people don't appreciate what they have while others do. San Jose and Houston fans love DeRo but in Toronto where he has had two MASSIVE years he can't do anything good enough. Maybe he should leave and we should be left to wallow with an inept team that without him couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of $20s.

king dave
12-27-2010, 01:43 PM
. . . . couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of $20s.

They haven't been to Parkdale;)!
KD.

Redcoe15
12-27-2010, 01:44 PM
If DeRo ends up going to Celtic for any length of time, it would guarantee five straight playoffless seasons for our TFC. :(

Pookie
12-27-2010, 01:49 PM
^ does Celtic play in a league with a designated player rule?

Since we do, our choices are either:

- sell him (receive allocation money and cap space but lose the player)
- make him a designated player (leaving only 1 DP slot... with a $250k premium... as it stands now)

... keeping him under his current contract doesn't seem like an option.

Therefore, it ain't so simple as wanting a player that comes with a positive history of production... not necessarily future production mind you... and a negative ability to guide the team (in the past, not necessarily future).

To keep the player, you give up on another Designated Player. So, while (a) players might appreciate his production the players aren't building a new roster in a league with a DP Rule.

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 01:51 PM
Yes DeRo, take your 30+ goals with you...we don't need them. We've got Chad Barrett! :rolleyes:

And here we are again. But this time, your argument is even more ridiculous since it implies that if DeRo were to leave, absolutely nothing would be done to replace him with someone equal or better.

Take your friendship with the player out of it for a second and tell me with a straight face that you expect we would simply turn DeRo into a bunch of money that would not be reinvested in otherwise improving the club. Come on. :rolleyes:

king dave
12-27-2010, 01:55 PM
If DeRo ends up going to Celtic for any length of time, it would guarantee five straight playoffless seasons for our TFC. :(
I don't think DeRos being in the TFC line-up come March 2011 will have any positive affect on the success of the club next season.
Don't want to use the old Bill Shankly line but as he said, "A football team is like a piano; it takes 8 men to carry it and 3 men to play the damn thing".
DeRo can't be expected to do it all and I think that is why he appears to be unhappy here.
Until MLSE give us some quality players, managers and coaches?
At best the product will be the same.
At worst?
Well, you know.
KD.

jazzy
12-27-2010, 02:04 PM
I don't get why its funny...

Its a catch 22 for some of us... I want to see him do well and play at a high level - but at the same time don't want to lose him from TFC...

Carts...

^bump.....100%,.....I'm am nervous, with his heart he could surprise....remember Edu?...He was never better than DeRo

Nestease
12-27-2010, 02:13 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/9322943.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic/8227089/Celtic-target-Dwayne-De-Rosario-is-a-bit-special-says-Paul-Dalglish.html

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 02:18 PM
Reading the BBC piece it sounds like De Ro to Celtic is still a little ways off, but it makes me wonder what other irons does De Ro have in the fire?

The web articles are coming fast and furious now:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11781_6618671,00.html

TFCRegina
12-27-2010, 02:25 PM
^ does Celtic play in a league with a designated player rule?

Since we do, our choices are either:

- sell him (receive allocation money and cap space but lose the player)
- make him a designated player (leaving only 1 DP slot... with a $250k premium... as it stands now)

... keeping him under his current contract doesn't seem like an option.

Therefore, it ain't so simple as wanting a player that comes with a positive history of production... not necessarily future production mind you... and a negative ability to guide the team (in the past, not necessarily future).

To keep the player, you give up on another Designated Player. So, while (a) players might appreciate his production the players aren't building a new roster in a league with a DP Rule.

And neither are the fans. So why is it a big deal?

Really, the DP rule can be considered something of a failure. It hasn't made New York or LA into undefeatable giants who win the MLS Cup. Hell, you could argue the DP rule is holding this league back because of the overemphasis on overseas based players. There are somef quality players here in MLS deserving of Designated player money (Like De Rosario) who are not getting that cash.

By saying you have to be of an overseas stock to become a designated player you give disincentive to all the kids who potentially could play in Major League Soccer one day, and you say to them: Go to Europe because you aren't valued at home.

Which is the exact opposite of what we want.

jazzy
12-27-2010, 02:30 PM
It seems former fellow players have more appreciation for him than the supporters of his own hometown team.

There's an old proverb in the Bible: "A prophet is not welcome in his hometown" and it applies well to situations where people don't appreciate what they have while others do. San Jose and Houston fans love DeRo but in Toronto where he has had two MASSIVE years he can't do anything good enough. Maybe he should leave and we should be left to wallow with an inept team that without him couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of $20s.

sometimes Roogsy with all the flak you take...you hit it right on the nose, screw the DeRo haters....... yes he's selfish at times duh, how do you become great not being selfish? he is genuine, class on and off the field......whiners we may end up with what we deserve adequate non-complainers, where mgmt, being cheap, is happy and we are again F%$ked .......Toronto is getting more and more like say Cleveland?... everyday, average simply average.....

TFCRegina
12-27-2010, 02:33 PM
sometimes Roogsy with all the flak you take...you hit it right on the nose, screw the DeRo haters....... yes he's selfish at times duh, how do you become great not being selfish? he is genuine, class on and off the field......whiners we may end up with what we deserve adequate non-complainers, where mgmt, being cheap, is happy and we are again F%$ked .......Toronto is getting more and more like say Cleveland?... everyday, average simply average.....

If we had adequate non-complainers I'd be happy with the situation.

Reality Check: We have SHITTY non-complainers.

Why trade away your star player, and sole productive goal machine when your team is filled with Dan Gargans, Nick Labroccas and Jacob Petersons?

Menelaos
12-27-2010, 02:36 PM
^ a possible answer might be:

Because that Star player will be a distraction on the team if he does come back and from the looks of it we might get some $ for him which will help bring in guys to play with the Gargans, Labroccas and Petersons?

Pookie
12-27-2010, 02:44 PM
By saying you have to be of an overseas stock to become a designated player you give disincentive to all the kids who potentially could play in Major League Soccer one day, and you say to them: Go to Europe because you aren't valued at home.



I'm not saying that at all.

You can be North American to get a DP tag. Who wouldn't want David Edgar in his prime?

Specifically, DeRo is the wrong DP for this team. He'll be 33 years old before the MLS season reaches its mid-point. At some point, his skills WILL decline. He is not a leader, something most if not all of his defenders will agree.

He has put up individual numbers and scored some great goals. But everyone gets older. What you did last year isn't an indication of what you'll do in the current season.

As a capable player on a roster of 11 with No-DP tag, sure... if he isn't going to sulk... we'd be crazy not to consider it. As a DP and cornerstone of your franchise? Combine age with no leadership, and I think we can do better for that DP slot.

I can see your point about having a DP at all but those are the rules in which we operate under so we'd be foolish not to use them to our advantage.

swan
12-27-2010, 02:48 PM
we don't deserve dero the guy has been the best player on this team ever and all he gets is us bitching at him because he wants to be paid more.. everyone of yous guys and gals would be calling for more money too if you were the best player n the team...

the guy deserves more from us and the team.. now imagine if he was treated well and had good players around him...

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm not saying that at all.

You can be North American to get a DP tag. Who wouldn't want David Edgar in his prime?

Specifically, DeRo is the wrong DP for this team. He'll be 33 years old before the MLS season reaches its mid-point. At some point, his skills WILL decline. He is not a leader, something most if not all of his defenders will agree.

He has put up individual numbers and scored some great goals. But everyone gets older. What you did last year isn't an indication of what you'll do in the current season.

As a capable player on a roster of 11 with No-DP tag, sure... if he isn't going to sulk... we'd be crazy not to consider it. As a DP and cornerstone of your franchise? Combine age with no leadership, and I think we can do better for that DP slot.

I can see your point about having a DP at all but those are the rules in which we operate under so we'd be foolish not to use them to our advantage.

That about says it all. A big fat +1 to you sir.

jazzy
12-27-2010, 02:58 PM
And neither are the fans. So why is it a big deal?

Really, the DP rule can be considered something of a failure. It hasn't made New York or LA into undefeatable giants who win the MLS Cup. Hell, you could argue the DP rule is holding this league back because of the overemphasis on overseas based players. There are somef quality players here in MLS deserving of Designated player money (Like De Rosario) who are not getting that cash.

By saying you have to be of an overseas stock to become a designated player you give disincentive to all the kids who potentially could play in Major League Soccer one day, and you say to them: Go to Europe because you aren't valued at home.

Which is the exact opposite of what we want.

you have a good point here......and I'm wondering about the designated rule myself.....sure I want to see stars here but that is never going to happen is it?.... a strong team in a strong league takes precedent.....thats why the new teams entering the league, I think have learned a valuable lesson, a solid foundation first, they see from us how good intentions can go astray

TFCRegina
12-27-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm not saying that at all.

You can be North American to get a DP tag. Who wouldn't want David Edgar in his prime?


Talk to Stuart Holden about that one. As for Edgar, he's a player who started his career in Europe, which completely flew over your head.

I would much rather see us spend DP money on the likes of guys who have been grinding it out in North America, regardless of nationality, than those who had a career in Europe and are coming back here as a retirement plan.

At the end of the day, regardless of De Ro's age, he's still the only guy producing goals on the team, and producing them in the bunches. He deserves a new contract.

jazzy
12-27-2010, 03:02 PM
^ a possible answer might be:

Because that Star player will be a distraction on the team if he does come back and from the looks of it we might get some $ for him which will help bring in guys to play with the Gargans, Labroccas and Petersons?

where will these quality players actually come from?....and we don't actually get that much from transfers correct?....even that $ is controlled is it not?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 03:13 PM
It seems former fellow players have more appreciation for him than the supporters of his own hometown team.

There's an old proverb in the Bible: "A prophet is not welcome in his hometown" and it applies well to situations where people don't appreciate what they have while others do. San Jose and Houston fans love DeRo but in Toronto where he has had two MASSIVE years he can't do anything good enough. Maybe he should leave and we should be left to wallow with an inept team that without him couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of $20s.

Wow, now he's a F**king prophet? Too funny.

He's a good footballer that has had two good seasons up here and has been recognized and compensated appropriately for it. PERIOD.

jazzy
12-27-2010, 03:14 PM
It really does test your patience as a supporter, yes?
Well let's all hope a vast number of Ontario teachers retire in the next year or two, which I think may be the only way to get these fucking 'dbags' out of the professional Toronto sports franchise business.
Larry T may be the biggest problem though.
KD.

Larry T IS the problem in Toronto.......a new Ballard, but I do have this weird intuition that MLSE has lost interest in the soccer team and IF they could would dump the team for 70 mill...they would......a rip yes but thats how they sell things....Tannebaum though only has first refusal in the selling of shares, no real power in business decisions ??

Pigfynn
12-27-2010, 03:41 PM
TFC says Dero going nowhere: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/toronto-fc-quash-reports-dero-celtic-trial

aboveandbeyond
12-27-2010, 03:55 PM
TFC says Dero going nowhere: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/toronto-fc-quash-reports-dero-celtic-trial


if he stays they will have No choice but to make him a DP ...

if not u get half a hearted Derock

Milky
12-27-2010, 04:03 PM
One thing with the MLS is that, unlike in the rest of the world, players have virtually no power. If we keep DeRo to his contract and then just let him go on a free when it's over, it's really not a big deal. In other words, TFC hold all the cards.

I suspect that DeRo is just trying to stir up interest in himself from overseas suitors in an attempt to force MLSE's hand at giving him a new contract. I'm sure that a part of Dwayne would like to challenge himself in the fridged winter league of Scotland, but a larger part of Dwayne would probably prefer playing in his hometown.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 04:13 PM
How many more years of De Rosario were we going to have anyways, 2, maybe 3 more years?

There will be a time in Toronto FC's immediate future where we will have to field a lineup without him. So who cares, if he wants to leave, he's not the be-all, end-all of footballers.

There are other players out there.

Pookie
12-27-2010, 04:20 PM
Talk to Stuart Holden about that one. As for Edgar, he's a player who started his career in Europe, which completely flew over your head.

You introduced the comment about needing a Euro-DP. I couldn't care where the birth certificate comes from.


I would much rather see us spend DP money on the likes of guys who have been grinding it out in North America, regardless of nationality, than those who had a career in Europe and are coming back here as a retirement plan.

So, a North American on a retirement plan is a better idea??


At the end of the day, regardless of De Ro's age, he's still the only guy producing goals on the team, and producing them in the bunches. He deserves a new contract.

He signed a new contract, a 4 year one, 2 years ago. Did he sign it with the idea that he'd want a new one in 2 years? Broken promises or not he signed it. If he underperformed, would he be willing to give money back?

Regardless, if he wants a new one, we are within our rights to ask what his FUTURE potential would be.

In the same way that folks wanted Angel at a lower salary because of his age (35), DeRo is on or near the point at which his skills decline.

So, we sign him to a 3 year DP deal. You want him taking up that slot at 34,35,36? Are you 100% confident that the DeRo you saw last year will be the same one that plays next year, the year after, and the year after that?

DeRo as a DP is a bad move. If we can get allocation money, all the best at Celtic my friend.

bgnewf
12-27-2010, 04:32 PM
There is no way Celtic staffers are not taking about this unless there has been some sort of approach about the player.

If TFC is saying that they have nothing to do with this then it must be DeRo and his agent where these murmurs are coming from.

This is in my mind nothing more than another tactic, like the cheque writing thing, to try and put pressure on TFC to renegotiate his deal when he has no other leverage to force them to do so.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:01 PM
And here we are again. But this time, your argument is even more ridiculous since it implies that if DeRo were to leave, absolutely nothing would be done to replace him with someone equal or better.

Take your friendship with the player out of it for a second and tell me with a straight face that you expect we would simply turn DeRo into a bunch of money that would not be reinvested in otherwise improving the club. Come on. :rolleyes:

Well...this is a club that had gobs of money and allocation room since the very start so basically yes...they would take DeRo's cap room and blow it. Just like they did with JDG and just like they did with Mista. No they would not "do nothing" but what exactly has inspired confidence in you that whatever they would do would be the right move?

Stryker
12-27-2010, 05:04 PM
I'd like to see DeRo get an extra hundred thousand in the form of allocation this year. But if keeping him means giving him a DP slot then fuck it. He's getting older and I don't want us to get burned by tying him to a DP slot when he starts declining.
Which in my opinion, that decline will in all likelihood start this season.
I don't believe DeRo will score in double digits again, and I think if healthy, Barrett will.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:04 PM
^ a possible answer might be:

Because that Star player will be a distraction on the team if he does come back and from the looks of it we might get some $ for him which will help bring in guys to play with the Gargans, Labroccas and Petersons?

I love this "distraction" talk. If a professional soccer player can't play to his ability because a fellow soccer player is locked in contract negotiations with a club, then that particular soccer player isn't much of a professional. This is a part of being in a pro league. It doesn't matter if your colleague is DeRo asking for DP money or Landycakes making 10x what you make (or Goldenballs making 100x what you make), you have a job to do and if you want a bump in your salary the only answer for you is to produce. Period.

So sorry, I don't buy that "answer".

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:05 PM
Wow, now he's a F**king prophet? Too funny.

He's a good footballer that has had two good seasons up here and has been recognized and compensated appropriately for it. PERIOD.



It's a proverb. Understand the meaning as opposed to being obtuse.


And he`s a good footballer that`s had 10 good seasons period, not just 2 good seasons up here. And in sports, approrpiate compensation is what the market now dictates, not what the market was 2 or 3 years ago. TFC shifted his market value through the moves they made and now they have to deal with it. That`s business.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:06 PM
How many more years of De Rosario were we going to have anyways, 2, maybe 3 more years?

There will be a time in Toronto FC's immediate future where we will have to field a lineup without him. So who cares, if he wants to leave, he's not the be-all, end-all of footballers.

There are other players out there.


Yep. And for the most part they don't want to come here regardless of what the TFC FO tells you. I've heard it first-hand from players.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:08 PM
I don't believe DeRo will score in double digits again, and I think if healthy, Barrett will.


Care to make a friendly wager on this? I will bet DeRo scores double digits again this year and Barrett (our STRIKER) fails to score 10 let alone match DeRo.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:11 PM
It's a proverb. Understand the meaning as opposed to being obtuse.

I understand it completely. Thanks a bunch.

People give DeRo some well-deserved stick for being a self-centred d**k and you make him out to be suffering an extreme form persecution.

Give me a break Roogsy. He's been given a ton of love by the supporters of this club. And been compensated very well for his performance. PERIOD.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:12 PM
And WHY don't they want to be here?
What is the reason? Obviously there are players who want to play here, or players that would accept, such as South American/European talent.

However, if you know what exactly the preventative factor is for current MLS players leaving and coming to play at BMO Field, I'd like to hear it. You've always made it sound like the league has 15 teams that all the players love, and then there's Toronto, which all the players seem to hate. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that for a second.

You're telling me that the players in Columbus live a better lifestyle than in Toronto? Yet, Columbus attracts talent all the time. There's gotta be something else, then, that you're alluding to; what is it?

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:14 PM
And WHY don't they want to be here?
What is the reason? Obviously there are players who want to play here, or players that would accept, such as South American/European talent.

However, if you know what exactly the preventative factor is for current MLS players leaving and coming to play at BMO Field, I'd like to hear it. You've always made it sound like the league has 15 teams that all the players love, and then there's Toronto, which all the players seem to hate. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that for a second.

You're telling me that the players in Columbus live a better lifestyle than in Toronto? Yet, Columbus attracts talent all the time. There's gotta be something else, then, that you're alluding to; what is it?

I never inferred such a thing, however there is the simple reality that there are teams where players would love to go play and teams where players don`t want to go and literally instruct their agents to try to get them employment elsewhere. Toronto is one of those teams. That is just the reality.

Super Cereal
12-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Yes DeRo, take your 30+ goals with you...we don't need them. We've got Chad Barrett! :rolleyes:

Yes, I clearly said DeRo is easy to replace.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Exactly how many draft picks or players we have traded for have stated that they didn't want to play here?

Stryker
12-27-2010, 05:18 PM
Care to make a friendly wager on this? I will bet DeRo scores double digits again this year and Barrett (our STRIKER) fails to score 10 let alone match DeRo.

I believe Barrett made huge strides last year and I'm willIng to put my money where my mouth is.

I win if Barrett scores 10 or more goals and DeRo does not.
If DeRo scores 10 or more and Barrett does not you win.
If neither player breaks 10 goal mark bet is a push.
If ether player is traded to another team bet is a push.

The wager? Winners choice of RPB scarf?

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 05:23 PM
Well...this is a club that had gobs of money and allocation room since the very start so basically yes...they would take DeRo's cap room and blow it. Just like they did with JDG and just like they did with Mista. No they would not "do nothing" but what exactly has inspired confidence in you that whatever they would do would be the right move?

Mista and JDG were both signed under the Mo regime. Clearly, things are different -- not saying better, per se, or yet -- but they're different. I have confidence a solution will be found and soon.

You know full well I would rather see DeRo leave to go across the pond than have him stay here and watch as he goes over the hill.

Now, to you age doesn't matter, but I'll again suggest different. This team, despite what you think, is not one lone quality footballer who isn't getting any younger. It's a mediocre gaggle of younger players who need to be replaced with younger players who are less mediocre. If DeRo's departure helps achieve that, I'm for it.

Whether it's today or two years from now, we're going to need someone other than The Prophet who can score.

Super Cereal
12-27-2010, 05:24 PM
And he`s a good footballer that`s had 10 good seasons period, not just 2 good seasons up here. And in sports, approrpiate compensation is what the market now dictates, not what the market was 2 or 3 years ago. TFC shifted his market value through the moves they made and now they have to deal with it. That`s business.

DeRo signed a contract, he doesn't have the power. If he is so unhappy with his wages, he shouldn't have signed the damn contract. That's business.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:25 PM
^^ That's your problem Roogsy. You fail to realize that DeRo's market value is $400k a year.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:26 PM
People give DeRo some well-deserved stick for being a self-centred d**k and you make him out to be suffering an extreme form persecution.

Give me a break Roogsy. He's been given a ton of love by the supporters of this club. And been compensated very well for his performance. PERIOD.

That he deserved stick for his gesture I have no problems with. But you and many others have taken it beyond him having a brainfart and questioned whether he is valuable at all to this team and that is where it is no longer "stick" and it becomes an issue of irrational dislike and lack of recognition for everything else. It`s a weird tunnel-vision over a one-second action as opposed to the hours and hours of effort and production a player has given you. In essence, for you, one gesture wiped out the best season any TFC player has had to date and probably will have for some time and to me that points to valuing a football player more for his behaviour than production and for me, production is what matters.

At United, fans didn`t mind seeing Ronaldo leave because he was a talented dick because they had full confidence Fergie was going to be able to guide the team to success without him. In Toronto we don`t have such luxuries. We are mired with mismanaged teams in all sports that have NO stars. We don`t have any kind of performers or franchise players anywhere. The best we`ve seen is Chris Bosh who we all now see that he is nothing more than a role player on a good team as opposed to a star player we always thought we had. We shipped off the best baseball pitcher the Jays have had since Clemens because he wanted to be on a winning team. Our hockey team`s best player in the last 10 years probably wasn`t even a top 10 player in the league even in his prime. So here we have someone who has proven to win trophies, proven to be a consisten goal-scorer and last year challenged even for the goldenboot and you think you can take his $400k and translate it into better results?
:picard:

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:27 PM
DeRo signed a contract, he doesn't have the power. If he is so unhappy with his wages, he shouldn't have signed the damn contract. That's business.

I have never said otherwise. So point me in the direction where DeRo says he will not honour his contract and your point will be valid.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:28 PM
I believe Barrett made huge strides last year and I'm willIng to put my money where my mouth is.

I win if Barrett scores 10 or more goals and DeRo does not.
If DeRo scores 10 or more and Barrett does not you win.
If neither player breaks 10 goal mark bet is a push.
If ether player is traded to another team bet is a push.

The wager? Winners choice of RPB scarf?


Sweet. You`re on.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:31 PM
That he deserved stick for his gesture I have no problems with. But you and many others have taken it beyond him having a brainfart and questioned whether he is valuable at all to this team and that is where it is no longer "stick" and it becomes an issue of irrational dislike and lack of recognition for everything else. It`s a weird tunnel-vision over a one-second action as opposed to the hours and hours of effort and production a player has given you. In essence, for you, one gesture wiped out the best season any TFC player has had to date and probably will have for some time and to me that points to valuing a football player more for his behaviour than production and for me, production is what matters.

At United, fans didn`t mind seeing Ronaldo leave because he was a talented dick because they had full confidence Fergie was going to be able to guide the team to success without him. In Toronto we don`t have such luxuries. We are mired with mismanaged teams in all sports that have NO stars. We don`t have any kind of performers or franchise players anywhere. The best we`ve seen is Chris Bosh who we all now see that he is nothing more than a role player on a good team as opposed to a star player we always thought we had. We shipped off the best baseball pitcher the Jays have had since Clemens because he wanted to be on a winning team. Our hockey team`s best player in the last 10 years probably wasn`t even a top 10 player in the league even in his prime. So here we have someone who has proven to win trophies, proven to be a consisten goal-scorer and last year challenged even for the goldenboot and you think you can take his $400k and translate it into better results?
:picard:



Blah..blahh..leafs..raptors...jays...blah blah.....irrelevant.

DeRo is worth $400k. Despite what you think, I do like the guy, but he's getting paid what he deserves. PERIOD. :picard:

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Roogsy, here's the reality of the situation.

In 10 years, De Rosario will be over 40.
In 10 years, Toronto FC will NOT be employing De Rosario.

If what you say about Toronto FC is true, and that players go out of their way to avoid playing for us, then the team is a complete shambles and, beyond De Rosario, will never employ another quality footballer.

I'm sorry, but there are plenty of footballers out there who will come and go for Toronto FC, and yes, De Rosario is a good player, but he's not Lionel Messi, he IS replaceable and he WILL eventually be gone. We hear talks of players wanting to come from Europe to MLS, such as Anelka, Zlatan, etc. One of these players will eventually make their way to Toronto. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it; we're one of the few teams who can actually afford some of these big name salaries. So, If, in 10 years time, our Attacking Midfielder shirt spells "Lampard 10", would losing De Rosario really have been that traumatic that you have literally written chapters about?

Good players come and go. The shirt is eternal. There is no reason to get hung up on a guy who will not be with us forever.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:34 PM
^^ That's your problem Roogsy. You fail to realize that DeRo's market value is $400k a year.

A 2-time MLS Cup MVP, 5 time MLS Best XI (including the last 2 years so much fo the age argument), 3 time Canadian Player of the Year, 4 time MLS Cup winner, the leading goal scorer on TFC since the first game of his arrival, the leading scorer in the NCC, a player who is 8th all-time with game-winning goals and was 3rd last season with overall league goals...

this is a player worth $400k???

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:35 PM
Yep. $400k my friend.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:37 PM
That's $400,000, four hundred thousand dollars.

That's all he's worth. He's won MLS cups. Gael Kakuta could probably win an MLS cup by himself. It's not that big a deal. Plus, he didn't win these things by himself, he won with San Jose and with Houston. If those teams played like shit, De Rosario would have NO cups.

Plus, take a look at the players who were 1 and 2 in the goalscoring chart, they don't make as much as De Rosario.

Just because he's got accolades in North America doesn't mean he's worth millions. He's an MLS star. Unfortunately, he has no European pedigree and thus no Worldwide value.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:38 PM
I'm sorry, but there are plenty of footballers out there who will come and go for Toronto FC, and yes, De Rosario is a good player, but he's not Lionel Messi, he IS replaceable and he WILL eventually be gone. We hear talks of players wanting to come from Europe to MLS, such as Anelka, Zlatan, etc. One of these players will eventually make their way to Toronto. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it; we're one of the few teams who can actually afford some of these big name salaries. So, If, in 10 years time, our Attacking Midfielder shirt spells "Lampard 10", everyone will have forgotten about one Mr. De Rosario.

This is where your argument falls apart...who is asking anyone to pay DeRo the equivalent of Messi`s salary?

As for players who may or may not come to Toronto, tell me, what salary range do you think we will have to pay them, keeping in mind they know what we were willing to pay Mista and JDG?

As for getting `hung up` this is about what is best for the team. I think DeRo is it. Pay him double what he makes now and what happens? He gets more money, but our salary cap position actually improves. You have satisfied your best player ever and you give yourself more room to sign whoever you want INCLUDING some of the names you just quoted.

So unless your position somehow is that we would be a better team without DeRo, what exactly is the problem here? I would think my position is a more reasonable one with regards to helping this team reach success.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:39 PM
I never said pay De Rosario Messi's salary, all I said was, he's not the best player on the planet earth, therefore he is replaceable.
Doubling his salary, I get. I agree with you on that point.
However, He isn't WORTH the money.

He is not a DP. Plain and simple. He's an MLS veteran, not a designated player. 350K is his value, we give him 400. Anything more is greed.
He makes more money than 99% of non-DP players in the league, yet there are players out there who do a lot for their teams, just like De Rosario.

My "problem" is that De Rosario is being portrayed as this Immaculate Savior when in reality he's a good player who will be gone in 5 years and is, therefore, nothing to get upset over. If he leaves, he's gone, we'll find another guy.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:41 PM
That's $400,000, four hundred thousand dollars.

That's all he's worth. He's won MLS cups. Gael Kakuta could probably win an MLS cup by himself. It's not that big a deal. Plus, he didn't win these things by himself, he won with San Jose and with Houston. If those teams played like shit, De Rosario would have NO cups.

Plus, take a look at the players who were 1 and 2 in the goalscoring chart, they don't make as much as De Rosario.


Just because

Yup...this post says it all. I guess MLS pays Donovan $2mill per year so he can go on loan to Everton, not because they`re trying to win those chinzy little MLS Cups.

And I never said DeRo would win MLS Cups here by himself, but the points turns on you as well, does TFC have a better chance to win an MLS Cup with or without DeRo? That should be the ONLY question you ask yourself. If you think we have a better chance wihtout him, then fine, I understand your point of view. But if you can`t admit to holding that belief, then your point unravels right in front of you.


I never said pay De Rosario Messi's salary, all I said was, he's not the best player on the planet earth, therefore he is replaceable.
Doubling his salary, I get. I agree with you on that point.
However, He isn't WORTH the money.

:noidea: I have no idea how you would measure a professional soccer player`s worth then.


He is not a DP. Plain and simple. He's an MLS veteran, not a designated player. 350K is his value, we give him 400. Anything more is greed.
He makes more money than 99% of non-DP players in the league, yet there are players out there who do a lot for their teams, just like De Rosario.

It seems you have not lost your love of FIFA trading. Tell you what, how about you explain to me how we are going to get Wondolowski in a TFC outfit at precisely the same salary he got last year from San Jose. I`d like to see you make your case.

[/quote]My "problem" is that De Rosario is being portrayed as this Immaculate Savior when in reality he's a good player who will be gone in 5 years and is, therefore, nothing to get upset over. If he leaves, he's gone, we'll find another guy.[/quote]

This is a ridiculous statement. ANY player will be gone in 5 years. When Danny arrived, we knew he was going to play MAYBE 2 years, and infact he played a year longer than he intended. And who is making him the saviour of anything? This is about what would make TFC a better team, plain and simple. Does he or does he not make the team better? Why can`t you answer a simple direct question? THe reason I would hate to see him go is because I firmly believe that without him, we are a worse team than we were, nothing else. If DeRo goes and makes 10x the money somewhere else, my personal relationship with him does not change on bit. If he makes more money in Toronto, it does not change one bit. So these strawman arguments that my knowing the man colours my preference on this matter is shot down by the fact that I have nothing to gain regardless of what TFC decides about him, but my personal frustration with this team continues to grow as it stumbles around looking for a way out of being a laughing stock of the league.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 05:44 PM
We missed the playoffs with him and without him. We're shit with him or without him. Look at history for your answer to the "better chance" question.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:48 PM
One player does not make a team. We would have the same chance with De Rosario as without. In case you missed it, we didn't make playoffs with him either.

And let's not sugar-coat anything here, Captain America makes 2 mil a year because he's USA's golden child. De Rosario is Canada's, but Canada and the USA are two totally different beasts. No one gives a rats ass about Canadian soccer on the other side of the border, but Donovan and the American dream has an appeal for others, for whatever reason. That's not football talent though; De Rosario and Donovan output the same amount of goals (relatively) and influence their sides fairly equally. Their salaries are a result of external politics.

Yet, we find ourselves arguing the same question, on different sides. You seem to think that Toronto FC can only make playoffs with De Rosario. I beg to differ. I think Toronto FC can make playoffs without him. I've always maintained that I'd rather have 3 or 4 good players than one De Rosario, because a TEAM wins the playoffs, not the one man.

Like I said, in 5 years there will be no De Rosario...what then Roogsy? Are we forever doomed once he retires? Of course not. We'll have found someone else. Why then, is it impossible now, but is the unavoidable reality in 5 years?

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:55 PM
Blah..blahh..leafs..raptors...jays...blah blah.....irrelevant.

DeRo is worth $400k. Despite what you think, I do like the guy, but he's getting paid what he deserves. PERIOD. :picard:


As with all your posts Chevy, you throw up arguments with nothing backing them up. The fact that Toronto sports teams have not had a true star is not an irrelevant fact. All our teams are filled with nothing but `Dan Gargans`but you call that irrelevant? As for what he deserves, in my opinion, none of us get paid what we deserve. Should poker players make millions while nurses get under 100k? Should golfers earn 10s of millions while fireman will never see even a fraction of that in their lifetime? The truth is that we live in a market-driven world. We value pop stars more than our teachers so I could care less what your opinion of what he DESERVES is. To me, I want TFC to make sound business decisions on the roster based on what will get us the most success. Period. Keeping your all-time best goalscorer ever would seem to me to be a wise option, but apparently you know better. I guess Barrett is ready to lead this team on to bigger and better things!!! :flare:

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 05:56 PM
We missed the playoffs with him and without him. We're shit with him or without him. Look at history for your answer to the "better chance" question.


Just answer one question:

Do we win 2 Canadian Championships without him?

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 05:59 PM
Just answer one question:

Do we win 2 Canadian Championships without him?

The fact that it rested on his shoulders speak more about how shit the whole team is as opposed to how good he was.
Also, don't forget, it was Guevara and Barrett who actually "won" us that championship...

But that doesn't mean it's Chad Barrett who will lead Toronto FC to victory.
Think bigger my man. De Rosario managed to come to Toronto FC and do all this! What prevents us from signing two "De Rosario"s from Europe/South America?
Fine, MLS players don't wanna play for us, supposedly. But that doesn't close the whole planet earth to Toronto.

He is not the only player who can come here and score 15 goals a season. There will be others. There will always be others.

Imagine, if you will, that Messi retires tomorrow. Is that the end of Barcelona's Right-Wing spot? Hell no. Players have their days, players have their years, and, in the end of the day, there's someone else waiting in the wings.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:01 PM
Blah blah blah Jimmy.

The answer is a simple yes or no. Stop obfuscating the fundamental issue. You dance around this issue. You pretend like building a team and finding goal-scoring players is as easy as walking to the convenience store.

Does DeRo make TFC better? Well, we start with the CCL and move from there. Do we win TWO Nutriliate Canadian Championships without Dwayne DeRosario? Yes or no?

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 06:02 PM
Just answer one question:

Do we win 2 Canadian Championships without him?

That's a ridiculous question. You're talking about a three-team tournament in which TFC is the only MLS side. And even then, we would have won one. The reason we won the second (brace yourself for TFC sacrilege here) is because Montreal fielded a side of scrubs who didn't care about playing a meaningless game.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:04 PM
More strawman arguments. The question is yes or no. If you feel like answering it, feel free.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 06:04 PM
Blah blah blah Jimmy.

The answer is a simple yes or no. Stop obfuscating the fundamental issue.You dance around this issue. You pretend like building a team and finding goal-scoring players is as easy as walking to the convenience store.

Did I use too many big words? I'll tone it down for this one, final point.

He is just one person. He is nothing special. In the grand scheme of football, he is shit. Toronto FC can do better. In 10 years he will be a memory. We are no better with him than without him. He may be your buddy, but in the end of the day, he's a 15 goal figure, who will soon be on a decline and retire. He is not worth more than 400k. period.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:06 PM
You still didn't answer the question. You are still doing a lot of dancing when a 2 letter or at most a 3 letter word is all that is necessary.

Big words? :lol: That one is too easy to mock...so I will just leave it as is, stay on topic and wait to see if you stop dancing around the issue.

aboveandbeyond
12-27-2010, 06:06 PM
Please for the Love of God just sign Dero to a major salary /major raise , if only to get Roogsy to stay calm and Move on..

no offense , I like dero too but jeeeesh .. you take it a ways further .

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 06:10 PM
Bro, it is easy to buy players. All teams in the world do it, all the time. Our millions of dollars speaks the same language as Real Madrid's millions of dollars, same with Los Angeles' millions. You think Colorado was anything special? Fuck no. It's easy to build a squad of players. This isn't a hard league to figure out. But when you plug your fingers in your ears and say "OH Woe is toronto, no one likes us, who would play for us besides MY MAN De Rosario, boo fucking hoo" of course you'll never sign players. The mindset of successful teams is a never die attitude. That includes transfers. Yeah, i can go into a transfer with little chance, but the odds won't lie to you, eventually you'll sign someone. It's better to try, fail a million times, and succeed once or twice, than to never have tried at all.

But, I think I'm starting to see something here. Perhaps your backing of De Rosario, particularly of his salary, is a favour? A mod on the biggest TFC supporters site, who fights for backing for a higher salary for a player who really doesn't deserve it...did he put you up to this?

Just a thought...

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:11 PM
Please for the Love of God just sign Dero to a major salary /major raise , if only to get Roogsy to stay calm and Move on..

no offense , I like dero too but jeeeesh .. you take it a ways further .



This is where I am slightly confused and I wonder if the internet changes the tone of discussions too much where people don't capture the meaning of the conversations. It's not like DeRo is my favourite all-time soccer player. Shoot...he's not even my favourite TFC player of all time! But I do have a problem with ridiculous logic and nobody here seems to be able to get past their dislike of some dumb-ass gesture that in the end means nothing and neither helps nor hinders this team in any meaningful way as opposed to concentrating on what really matters on the pitch. Which is: how many times a team gets the ball into the opposing team's net. I lived through every single game of this team's ineptitude streak. I was at every game and even travelled to away games during that time. I was paying to bring people to see this great new experience called "TFC" only to have myself embarrassed by the pathetic display put in front of us. So here we have a proven goal-scorer and people are acting like we don't need him??? Fucking ridiculous. That's why I have a problem with this whole issue. Fucking FIFA traders thinking we're going to land Wondolowski for a song all the while we don't back our own player in his fight against a woeful FO?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:12 PM
You still didn't answer the question. You are still doing a lot of dancing when a 2 letter or at most a 3 letter word is all that is necessary.

Big words? :lol: That one is too easy to mock...so I will just leave it as is, stay on topic and wait to see if you stop dancing around the issue.

I'll answer it. YES. One was against a beer-league team. And both (correct me if I'm wrong) had 10 other players on the pitch with him. Some of whom also had major contributions to those victories.

Regardless, on the grand scheme of things a NCC championship is worth relatively little in terms of improving ones pedigree, status and in turn salary.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:13 PM
Bro, it is easy to buy players. All teams in the world do it, all the time. Our millions of dollars speaks the same language as Real Madrid's millions of dollars, same with Los Angeles' millions. You think Colorado was anything special? Fuck no. It's easy to build a squad of players. This isn't a hard league to figure out. But when you plug your fingers in your ears and say "OH Woe is toronto, no one likes us, who would play for us besides MY MAN De Rosario, boo fucking hoo" of course you'll never sign players. The mindset of successful teams is a never die attitude. That includes transfers. Yeah, i can go into a transfer with little chance, but the odds won't lie to you, eventually you'll sign someone. It's better to try, fail a million times, and succeed once or twice, than to never have tried at all.

But, I think I'm starting to see something here. Perhaps your backing of De Rosario, particularly of his salary, is a favour? A mod on the biggest TFC supporters site, who fights for backing for a higher salary for a player who really doesn't deserve it...did he put you up to this?

Just a thought...

Whatever. Your deflection and intentional avoidance of the question says it all. I just finished saying I have no stake in whatever happens to DeRo but you can believe whatever you want. After all, you're still stuck in FIFA trader mode.

So don't worry, I won't ask the question again. It gets tiresome seeing you avoid answering it. And that in itself answer it anyways.

swan
12-27-2010, 06:17 PM
DeRo signed a contract, he doesn't have the power. If he is so unhappy with his wages, he shouldn't have signed the damn contract. That's business.


yes he did but he is not the first player to want it redone.. many players get a better contract while still having years left on their current one..

besides him the only other player that did their job last year was frei...

Super
12-27-2010, 06:18 PM
Someone should do the math to see how our season would have played out without DeRo. Then come back and tell us how we don't need the guy - or how he isn't deserving of DP money. I don't like the check-writing thing DeRo did, but I'm not going to deny the importance of this guy because of the way he celebrated yet another of his many goals for us this year.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 06:18 PM
Here's your fucking answer;

NO.

Look at the events of the evenings 6-1 thrashing against Montreal. It was Barrett who "won" us the cup.

As for the one after that, De Rosario was crucial, but it was the team that won the cup. Not De Rosario.

So, the answer is simple; NO, because ONE MAN DOES NOT WIN A CUP.

You asked if De Rosario won us the cup, I tell you we could and probably would have won with or without him. But this is a "what-if" game. Who knows what could have happened. All I can tell you is that he is not the only one who contributed.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:19 PM
I'll answer it. YES. One was against a beer-league team. And both (correct me if I'm wrong) had 10 other players on the pitch with him. Some of whom also had major contributions to those victories.

Regardless, on the grand scheme of things a NCC championship is worth relatively little in terms of improving ones pedigree, status and in turn salary.


So you honestly think we win TWO NCCs without DeRo? :lol: I think you're just saying this to put me on. I don't honestly believe you think this is true. But if this is the case you're putting on, so be it. I guess it would be too much to ask you to back this up considering TFC placed 3rd in the year DeRo was not in it and were the tournament's poorest scorers? It's just coincidence I suppose that there was a complete turnaround with DeRo?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:20 PM
Someone should do the math to see how our season would have played out without DeRo. Then come back and tell us how we don't need the guy - or how he isn't deserving of DP money. I don't like the check-writing thing DeRo did, but I'm not going to deny the importance of this guy because of the way he celebrated yet another of his many goals for us this year.

We would have probably missed the playoffs without DeRo. We definitely missed the playoffs with him. :)

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:21 PM
Here's your fucking answer;

NO.

Look at the events of the evenings 6-1 thrashing against Montreal. It was Barrett who "won" us the cup.

As for the one after that, De Rosario was crucial, but it was the team that won the cup. Not De Rosario.

So, the answer is simple; NO, because ONE MAN DOES NOT WIN A CUP.


This is a contradictory answer. You say we don't win two NCC's without him but then continue try to make the case for why we don't need him?

It is a diversionary tactic you use to continue to claim that "one man" wins anything on his own. That is not nor has it been my point so I don't know why you keep saying it. However, "one man" can make a team better and you are failing to differentiate that fundamental fact and the relevant question of whether DeRo makes TFC better than they would be without him.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:22 PM
We would have probably missed the playoffs without DeRo. We definitely missed the playoffs with him. :)


Where on the table do you think we would have wound up in the last 2 seasons without DeRo?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:22 PM
So you honestly think we win TWO NCCs without DeRo? :lol: I think you're just saying this to put me on. I don't honestly believe you think this is true. But if this is the case you're putting on, so be it. I guess it would be too much to ask you to back this up considering TFC placed 3rd in the year DeRo was not in it and were the tournament's poorest scorers? It's just coincidence I suppose that there was a complete turnaround with DeRo?

Whatever, I will give you the NCC Hero thing.

In terms of compensation and market value, it's peanuts. So we're still at that $400k valuation aren't we?

Did anyone swoop in this offseason with offers for the guy? Foreign teams (real ones, not rumours)? TFC re-negotiating his contract? Anyone? Bueller?

Seems to me the market has spoken....and it's saying $400k.

ArmenJBX
12-27-2010, 06:26 PM
But no one denies his contributions, rather, his self-perceived monetary value is what has people debating.

He is just not worth more than what he is being payed. I'm sorry, but he has yet to even get US into playoffs. Should he be payed according to what he DID? Why does he deserves that much money, if he's not taken us to the playoffs? If he's THAT incredible, we should be a playoff team. We're not. Therefore, his value is exactly that with which it started.

And it's being argued that his contributions on the field are not even deserved by us, as if it's some burden that he's reluctantly giving up; his job, at 400k, is to score goals. It's not like we signed him at 400k and told him "Don't score." He signed a contract, which gave him 400k, and he is expected to give 110% because of it. If he doesn't, or if he thinks by doing the job he was signed to do merits more money, then he's being a diva.

You don't hire a roofer, agree to a price, and than pay him more if he does the job better than other roofers. You already agreed on the price of the job with him. End of.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:26 PM
Whatever, I will give you the NCC Hero thing.

In terms of compensation and market value, it's peanuts. So we're still at that $400k valuation aren't we?

Did anyone swoop in this offseason with offers for the guy? Foreign teams (real ones, not rumours)? TFC re-negotiating his contract? Anyone? Bueller?

Seems to me the market has spoken....and it's saying $400k.

It has been accurately reported that teams are interested in DeRo. If this were Europe he'd be long gone but MLS's CBA restricts player movements to the point where unless someone came in with a multi-million dollar fee, he would be hard-pressed to move. But let me assure you there are teams willing to pay more that what he is getting from TFC. Which probably only adds to his frustration.

Does that change your perception of his "market" or not?

Super
12-27-2010, 06:29 PM
We would have probably missed the playoffs without DeRo. We definitely missed the playoffs with him. :)

Berbatov in his current form couldn't get this team into the play-offs, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the few players that actually produce for us.

We scored 30 goals this year - HALF of these came from DeRo. 5 of his goals were game-winners. He was named to the MLS Best XI for the second straight year. This team sucked because our coach and the majority of our players were shit. DeRo is not and was never the problem - he's got 8 straight play-offs prior to coming here to prove that.

But sure, let's run the guy out of town. We shit the bed, and yet it appears to me that the guy taking the biggest knocks over the failed season is the guy that produced in general terms more for his team than any other player in the entire league. And people wonder why this city can't produce winning teams?

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 06:30 PM
I said it when this first hit and i'll say it now. I am not opposed to transferring Dero (or anyone else on this team) but I want to know what the next move is.

Who picks up that production? because there are no answers on our roster currently and someone the quality of Dero is not easy to replaced in MLS.

The path to first place isn't paved with a bunch of scrubs.

Waggy
12-27-2010, 06:30 PM
For arguments sake, I'm going to toss out a theory here. We can say a few things with certainty about Toronto and its teams. 1) they're by and large terrible. 2) they haven't been good in quite some time. 3) fans are very active and loud in demanding the best for their team. Usually in the form of a star player to be the 'face of the franchise'.

Lets look at other clubs in MLS that have been recently successful. You can go the Seattle/NY/LA route to success, and that definitely works. Or there's also the Colorado model. Having good young players hwo work well together, pull together and play hard. All our teams generally only really ever tried the first option (Leafs with Gilmour to Sundin to Kessel/Phenuef now, Raps with Damon to Vince to Bosh. Only the Jays have recently said forget that first model, lets try the TEAM route. I'd say thus far (and it's early days still), the Jays have been successful. I'd say right now if you asked me to put money on which Toronto club would be most successful in the next 5 years, I'd be laying my money with the Jays.

Whats wrong with TFC selling Dero, putting the money into a REAL scouting department and putting together a team of young, workman like players mixed with some up and comers? Maybe take a year to actual build something instead of getting impatient? Maybe we won't have a 15 goal scorer this year, maybe thatll be fine. Maybe Dero may be able to get a DP slot from another team, but maybe he isn't worth a DP spot to THIS team? Good players can be bad fits in places. Would we rather see Dero as another Doc Halladay (bright spot on a non competative team), or follow our home town former player and root for his success elsewhere (Doc Halladay circa 2009)?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:31 PM
It has been accurately reported that teams are interested in DeRo. If this were Europe he'd be long gone but MLS's CBA restricts player movements to the point where unless someone came in with a multi-million dollar fee, he would be hard-pressed to move. But let me assure you there are teams willing to pay more that what he is getting from TFC. Which probably only adds to his frustration.

Does that change your perception of his "market" or not?

DeRo did the Europe thing remember? Didn't work out so well. And where were all these Euro giants willing to lavish millions on him over the last TEN years? Sleeping? Waiting for NCC game tape to arrive? Why would he sign with TFC when Europe's riches were waiting?

Probably because they weren't, and aren't.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:34 PM
This is the tired old argument of the "Europe" test. It doesn't prove anything but people act like it does. DeRo made a decision based on other factors that people are now trying to link back to his football.

Landycakes took TWO attempts at Europe before a 3rd finally impressed, does that mean he isn't worth the $2mill LA is paying him?

This is just another strawman argument about DeRo's worth. Let's say for arguments sake that I told you there was a team willing to pay DeRO $1million but TFC was not willing to deal him away...again, would that change your perception of his "market"?

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 06:35 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/toronto-fc-quash-reports-dero-celtic-trial

“Dwayne is not going on trial with Celtic or any other club,” Cochrane told MLSsoccer.com. “We have not received word from anyone and expect him to be with TFC when training camp opens next month.”

Not that this necessarily means nothing is happening.

http://www.madeofwinandawesome.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/shipment_of_fail.jpg

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Lets look at other clubs in MLS that have been recently successful. You can go the Seattle/NY/LA route to success, and that definitely works. Or there's also the Colorado model. Having good young players hwo work well together, pull together and play hard. All our teams generally only really ever tried the first option (Leafs with Gilmour to Sundin to Kessel/Phenuef now, Raps with Damon to Vince to Bosh. Only the Jays have recently said forget that first model, lets try the TEAM route. I'd say thus far (and it's early days still), the Jays have been successful. I'd say right now if you asked me to put money on which Toronto club would be most successful in the next 5 years, I'd be laying my money with the Jays.

I really would have trouble calling Colorado a "model". One playoff run notwithstanding i didn't think they were very impressive.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:40 PM
This is the tired old argument of the "Europe" test. It doesn't prove anything but people act like it does. DeRo made a decision based on other factors that people are now trying to link back to his football.

Landycakes took TWO attempts at Europe before a 3rd finally impressed, does that mean he isn't worth the $2mill LA is paying him?

This is just another strawman argument about DeRo's worth. Let's say for arguments sake that I told you there was a team willing to pay DeRO $1million but TFC was not willing to deal him away...again, would that change your perception of his "market"?

So Landy was able to make THREE moves to europe under the iron fist of MLS. Why did DeRo only manage one? LOL. Talk about strawman arguments. How about you ACTUALLY show me a team willing to pay DeRo $1M, now or at any time during his career. Then we will talk market value. Until then.....$400k is where the valuation remains.

Super
12-27-2010, 06:40 PM
At the end of the day DeRo is not the problem. I don't understand why people see him as the problem either. Clearly our team was terrible all year, and clearly DeRo was one of few players who actually did produce. We got rid of a lot of players, and hopefully we can now move forward with a new coach/GM and bring in MUCH better players - and next year we'll have a better team. I expect DeRo to be there when season starts up again, and I'm pretty sure he'll produce for us once again.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:43 PM
For arguments sake, I'm going to toss out a theory here. We can say a few things with certainty about Toronto and its teams. 1) they're by and large terrible. 2) they haven't been good in quite some time. 3) fans are very active and loud in demanding the best for their team. Usually in the form of a star player to be the 'face of the franchise'.

Lets look at other clubs in MLS that have been recently successful. You can go the Seattle/NY/LA route to success, and that definitely works. Or there's also the Colorado model. Having good young players hwo work well together, pull together and play hard. All our teams generally only really ever tried the first option (Leafs with Gilmour to Sundin to Kessel/Phenuef now, Raps with Damon to Vince to Bosh. Only the Jays have recently said forget that first model, lets try the TEAM route. I'd say thus far (and it's early days still), the Jays have been successful. I'd say right now if you asked me to put money on which Toronto club would be most successful in the next 5 years, I'd be laying my money with the Jays.

Whats wrong with TFC selling Dero, putting the money into a REAL scouting department and putting together a team of young, workman like players mixed with some up and comers? Maybe take a year to actual build something instead of getting impatient? Maybe we won't have a 15 goal scorer this year, maybe thatll be fine. Maybe Dero may be able to get a DP slot from another team, but maybe he isn't worth a DP spot to THIS team? Good players can be bad fits in places. Would we rather see Dero as another Doc Halladay (bright spot on a non competative team), or follow our home town former player and root for his success elsewhere (Doc Halladay circa 2009)?

I'd have to agree with this except with the Jays bit. In any other division I think they consistently compete for a wild card spot, but they will forever play 2nd fiddle to the Yankees and the Red Sox.

The truth is at this point I'd rather see DeRo get sold and have him get paid elsewhere. I liked seeing a hometown player like DeRo win MLS Cups before TFC and now that I know how inept this team is and how convinced I am that we will not win an MLS Cup in the foreseeable future, maybe it's better for a player I admire that he go and have success elsewhere. Lord knows fans here almost deserve MLSE and their incompetence.

torontocelt
12-27-2010, 06:44 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic/8227089/Celtic-target-Dwayne-De-Rosario-is-a-bit-special-says-Paul-Dalglish.html

Another story on De Ro to Celtic, a little meaty than the earlier piece.

Paul Dalglish is smoking crack if he thinks DeRo is as talented as Lubo, I hope he is talking more about the potential impact DeRo could have as opposed to his actual skill level as Lubo was way beyond DeRo's level.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 06:45 PM
So Landy was able to make THREE moves to europe under the iron fist of MLS. Why did DeRo only manage one? LOL. Talk about strawman arguments. How about you ACTUALLY show me a team willing to pay DeRo $1M, now or at any time during his career. Then we will talk market value. Until then.....$400k is where the valuation remains.

It's not my place to tell you of offers for DeRo, but suffice to say if TFC weren't hanging on to his contract he's get more than twice the money elsewhere.

So if you really want to know DeRo's worth, perhaps you should ask TFC to release him from his contract and see where he signs and for how much? Then you will really know his "market" which I assure you is much higher than 400k even though you don't want to admit it.

But TFC won't to do that. Because even they don't agree with you and they know that his "market" is actually much higher and they have picked up a cheap contract that they are hanging on to with a death grip.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 06:50 PM
Sure....this is where we get to the "proprietary Roogsy information" argument. Total BS. Provide some evidence or go away.

Again, another strawman argument. Something tells me (and I might add you're not the only one around here with "proprietary information") that if some club was offering the man $1M to play for them we would have heard about it by now.

Why haven't we heard about this mystery club in the last DECADE? Because it doesn't exist. $400k valuation.

Pookie
12-27-2010, 06:50 PM
The truth is at this point I'd rather see DeRo get sold and have him get paid elsewhere.

I'm glad you agree that he should move on.

Of course, there is another option. He stay, shut up, and honour the contract that he signed for 2 more years but I guess that's not really an option for the most significant player who will ever wear the crest in all our coming seasons?


Lord knows fans here almost deserve MLSE and their incompetence.

... and yet you advocate for a raise, a DP tag, a franchise cornerstone and a multi-year deal for a player who WILL feel the hand of aging and a declining skill set in the very near future?

If you get your wish, that will be incompetence from a Management perspective.

TFC/Everton
12-27-2010, 06:52 PM
Dero wants to get paid before he is useless. Lets be serious, his "style" or "hack style" as I like to call it, will never allow him to coach or manage. However, I say give him a 2 year, 1.2 million dollar contact with a big press conference so he can feel like a big shot. He deserves to get paid because of his scoring ability. I just wish he wasn't such an embarrassment too Canadian soccer.

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 06:52 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/toronto-fc-quash-reports-dero-celtic-trial

“Dwayne is not going on trial with Celtic or any other club,” Cochrane told MLSsoccer.com. “We have not received word from anyone and expect him to be with TFC when training camp opens next month.”

Not that this necessarily means nothing is happening.

http://www.madeofwinandawesome.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/shipment_of_fail.jpg

Everytime I see it written down like that, "Training camp starts next month," it surprises me.

So, next week will they make it official that Cochrane is going to be running the team?

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 06:54 PM
At the end of the day DeRo is not the problem. I don't understand why people see him as the problem either. Clearly our team was terrible all year, and clearly DeRo was one of few players who actually did produce. We got rid of a lot of players, and hopefully we can now move forward with a new coach/GM and bring in MUCH better players - and next year we'll have a better team. I expect DeRo to be there when season starts up again, and I'm pretty sure he'll produce for us once again.
agreed.

I think there is a lot of romanticized bullshit about character leading to success floating around here.

TFC Bhoy
12-27-2010, 06:55 PM
Paul Dalglish is smoking crack if he thinks DeRo is as talented as Lubo, I hope he is talking more about the potential impact DeRo could have as opposed to his actual skill level as Lubo was way beyond DeRo's level.agreed, I like DeRo and all, but I hope he isn't comparing his talent with Lubo, thats just crazy.

On a side note, can't we all just get along? Im feeling a need to break out in "Why can't we be friends" lol

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 06:55 PM
I'm still amused by the assertion by some that DeRo loves and is devoted to this club and this city, but only so long as the club capitulates to his demands at every turn... even if he's still under contract.

Let him play out the last two years of his deal. If he wants to go elsewhere at age 34, when his contract ends, then so be it.

- Scott

Super
12-27-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm still amused by the assertion by some that DeRo loves and is devoted to this club and this city, but only so long as the club capitulates to his demands at every turn... even if he's still under contract.

Let him play out the last two years of his deal. If he wants to go elsewhere at age 34, when his contract ends, then so be it.

- Scott

Personally I couldn't care less if our players love this city or not. They're all hired guns and it's their job to perform and win us games - and hopefully some day a trophy as well. I highly doubt that Colorado won the MLS Cup because it's made up of a team that LOVES Denver. They're pros. Let's get some for our team please. And really, at the end of the day I want every single player on our team to produce - and as long as they do I'll be happy to see them stay.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 07:08 PM
I'm still amused by the assertion by some that DeRo loves and is devoted to this club and this city, but only so long as the club capitulates to his demands at every turn... even if he's still under contract.

Let him play out the last two years of his deal. If he wants to go elsewhere at age 34, when his contract ends, then so be it.

- Scott


Funny...it gets real quiet in here when logic rears its ugly head.

UltraSuperMegaMo
12-27-2010, 07:22 PM
It's too bad TFC isn't a premier league team, the media in the UK would do wonders with the material the team could provide them. "Reds Rubbish Rumour" wasn't bad. Have to think there's an element of where there's smoke there's fire here. The BBC football website is normally a pretty solid source.

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 07:23 PM
Funny...it gets real quiet in here when logic rears its ugly head.
That's logical, but in a very simplistic manner.

What if we get a better performance out of him and less strife if we meet his contract demands? Balance that against the financial implications of paying dero, the league's opinion, future player negotiations and you have the real elements that make up the decision.

Some people are boiling this down to "well he has a contract and should play for it". If only the world were so simple. We're not the Toronto Football club here to uphold the holy sanctity of the written contract. We're here to win, MLSE is here to make a profit, and apparently Dero is here to get paid.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 07:28 PM
Very true. But his demands are for a salary of near or above $1M, which is nonsense. What would result in less strife is simply too costly.

Furthermore, the argument by some here is that he is ALREADY performing at his absolute peak (stats, leaves everything on the pitch, etc...), so logic would dictate a raise wouldn't improve his performance, right?

Super Cereal
12-27-2010, 07:34 PM
I have never said otherwise. So point me in the direction where DeRo says he will not honour his contract and your point will be valid.

:


TFC shifted his market value through the moves they made and now they have to deal with it. That`s business.

Are you, or are you not, implying with the second quote that TFC is obligated to re-structure his contract? That's certainly how I took it.

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 07:37 PM
That's logical, but in a very simplistic manner.

What if we get a better performance out of him and less strife if we meet his contract demands? Balance that against the financial implications of paying dero, the league's opinion, future player negotiations and you have the real elements that make up the decision.

Some people are boiling this down to "well he has a contract and should play for it". If only the world were so simple. We're not the Toronto Football club here to uphold the holy sanctity of the written contract. We're here to win, MLSE is here to make a profit, and apparently Dero is here to get paid.

I don't necessarily disagree with this argument. My point is that those people can't have it both ways. For months we've heard about how devoted and committed DeRo was to this city, and bringing a championship to this particular team. And this line of romanticized reasoning also bleeds into the various arguments about why we should give DeRo what he wants, despite him already having a contract - stuff about alleged "promises" made, reciprocating commitment, blah blah blah.

If DeRo is just a dispassionate professional willing to do whatever he can to squeeze more money out of the club, then so be it. Let's treat him that way.

And if we are going to treat him that way, then lets remember that he's already signed for two more years, at which point he will be 34 years old, and likely solidly in the territory of rapidly diminishing returns.

DeRo is well compensated for his work, within the context of MLS salaries. It seems to be forgotten that the club actually gave him a raise when he came to Toronto, over what he was making in Houston.

- Scott

Chevy
12-27-2010, 07:38 PM
Cereal - I believe Roogsy is implying that DeRo's market value is somehow increased due to the signings of DeGuzman and Mista to larger contracts.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 07:41 PM
Personally I couldn't care less if our players love this city or not. They're all hired guns and it's their job to perform and win us games - and hopefully some day a trophy as well. I highly doubt that Colorado won the MLS Cup because it's made up of a team that LOVES Denver. They're pros. Let's get some for our team please. And really, at the end of the day I want every single player on our team to produce - and as long as they do I'll be happy to see them stay.

QFT...

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 07:42 PM
Funny...it gets real quiet in here when logic rears its ugly head.


Or it could be that there is no disagreement to the statement? I for one have never made his "love for the city" the reason why he should be paid more. And I don't think I've seen that argument elsewhere. So why would anyone respond or disagree with this?

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 07:42 PM
I also don't understand the argument that TFC are responsible for increasing his market value, by inadvertently overpaying other guys. That isn't how market value works.

Is the fact that TFC are overpaying JDG something DeRo's agent can use to play hardball during contract negoatiations with TFC? Absolutely. But it isn't something they can use to force premature contract re-negotiation, and it certainly doesn't increase his value to the rest of the teams in the league.

- Scott

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 07:43 PM
Very true. But his demands are for a salary of near or above $1M, which is nonsense. What would result in less strife is simply too costly.[quote]
Well I respect your opinion but i'd tend to disagree about his value. If he can produce around what he did last year i'd give him that money (ignoring the contract implications, hypothetically saying he was on a free).

From a salary cap perspective, it actually makes sense to do since the 2nd and 3rd DP actually cost less under the cap than his full salary hit.

[quote]Furthermore, the argument by some here is that he is ALREADY performing at his absolute peak (stats, leaves everything on the pitch, etc...), so logic would dictate a raise wouldn't improve his performance, right?
Perhaps, but it might be one less distraction for TFC.

Again, I'll say i'm relatively neutral about the possibility of him playing for us next year. If he's not here, I want an adequate replacement (which may not be easy to come by).

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 07:46 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with this argument. My point is that those people can't have it both ways. For months we've heard about how devoted and committed DeRo was to this city, and bringing a championship to this particular team. And this line of romanticized reasoning also bleeds into the various arguments about why we should give DeRo what he wants, despite him already having a contract - stuff about alleged "promises" made, reciprocating commitment, blah blah blah.

If DeRo is just a dispassionate professional willing to do whatever he can to squeeze more money out of the club, then so be it. Let's treat him that way.

And if we are going to treat him that way, then lets remember that he's already signed for two more years, at which point he will be 34 years old, and likely solidly in the territory of rapidly diminishing returns.

DeRo is well compensated for his work, within the context of MLS salaries. It seems to be forgotten that the club actually gave him a raise when he came to Toronto, over what he was making in Houston.

- Scott


Two things.

1) Is your position that in the salary conflicts in the world of football, that the stand should be taken with a guy like DeRO wanting more money as opposed to guys like Rooney who makes 10s of millions but still want more? So in your opinion, Fergie should also have taken the hardline stand with Rooney? Why is one player allowed to stand up for their interests and others are not?

2) I thought I had already put the "raise" issue to rest. In overall contract terms, the dollar value from Houston to Toronto is indeed higher but in real dollar terms, it's a wash. DeRo is in fact making less "take home" than he was in Houston.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 07:47 PM
I also don't understand the argument that TFC are responsible for increasing his market value, by inadvertently overpaying other guys. That isn't how market value works.

Actually it is.

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 07:49 PM
If DeRo is just a dispassionate professional willing to do whatever he can to squeeze more money out of the club, then so be it. Let's treat him that way.

I agree.

Really we should boil it down to how we're going to get the most performance out of him given what we'd pay or how we get more performance out of someone else if he's not here.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 07:57 PM
Or it could be that there is no disagreement to the statement? I for one have never made his "love for the city" the reason why he should be paid more. And I don't think I've seen that argument elsewhere. So why would anyone respond or disagree with this?

Or could it be when the questions get tough you drop a ninja smoke bomb and dissapear. :facepalm:

I'm still waiting for those clubs that have lined up to pay DeRo $1m a year. Anyone? Bueller?

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 07:58 PM
1) Is your position that in the salary conflicts in the world of football, that the stand should be taken with a guy like DeRO wanting more money as opposed to guys like Rooney who makes 10s of millions but still want more? So in your opinion, Fergie should also have taken the hardline stand with Rooney? Why is one player allowed to stand up for their interests and others are not?

This entire argument is made of sand. For starters, the comparison isn't apples-apples. Rooney plays in a league without a salary cap, and a completely different culture surrounding the player-owner relationship.

Secondly, I don't believe what you've said above at all. In fact, a quick search should yield several examples of me railing against the entitlement culture in European football, where contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on, and the clubs have virtually no leverage when it comes to their best players. You're implying cognitive dissonance where absolutely none exists.


2) I thought I had already put the "raise" issue to rest. In overall contract terms, the dollar value from Houston to Toronto is indeed higher but in real dollar terms, it's a wash. DeRo is in fact making less "take home" than he was in Houston.

"Real dollar terms" are irrelevant to the club. When he came to Toronto, they paid him more money. Whether he loses the difference in taxes or living expenses (highly debatable, and has been discussed before here - athletes have lots of tax loopholes they can exploit), is not relevant to my greater point.

Every team abides by the same cap rules, despite wildly varying tax rates and costs of living across states and countries.

EDIT: And for the record - yes, I think Fergie should have taken a hard stance against Rooney, if he was whining about money. No player is bigger than the club. No cog is bigger than the machine. And Fergie has historically also taken this view of things.

- Scott

Chevy
12-27-2010, 07:59 PM
Actually it is.

Even if you're correct (and you're not), you could easily make the case that DeRo deserves no more than $200k because Dan Gargan makes only $40k or Cann (OUR MVP!!!) makes around $60k.

Seems logical, no? Of course not, if you're DeRo's agent.

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 08:07 PM
Or could it be when the questions get tough you drop a ninja smoke bomb and dissapear. :facepalm:

I'm still waiting for those clubs that have lined up to pay DeRo $1m a year. Anyone? Bueller?
I'm not going to claim i know the answer to that question but it doesn't seem like that far off from being possible. Could have swore i heard guys like Chris Rolfe going to the Danish Superliga and earning upwards of 500k.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 08:09 PM
^^ Well, when anyone provides actual evidence of the clubs willing to pay DeRo $1m a season, I would be happy to listen.

Going to Mars isn't far off from being possible. But it ain't happened, has it?

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 08:10 PM
Even if you're correct (and you're not), you could easily make the case that DeRo deserves no more than $200k because Dan Gargan makes only $40k or Cann (OUR MVP!!!) makes around $60k.

Seems logical, no? Of course not, if you're DeRo's agent.

Well,yeah, he's right, that's exactly how market value works. My property taxes have increased over fifty percent because some idiots overpaid for houses on my street, that's market value.

As for DeRo and market value, I have no idea, but I wish that just one off season we could be talking about all the high scoring guys rumoured to be coming to our team, instead of leaving it.

And speaking of our MVP, his contract runs out on Friday, doesn't it? Any rumours about him coming back?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 08:13 PM
Beach, let me ask you this - If Mo Johnston moves down the street from you and pays 5x the asking price for a house, would you expect that your house automatically would increase in value five times because Mo's an idiot?

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 08:13 PM
^^ Well, when anyone provides actual evidence of the clubs willing to pay DeRo $1m a season, I would be happy to listen.

Going to Mars isn't far off from being possible. But it ain't happened, has it?
Yeah, but at the same time I doubt those type of things are simply going to flop down right in front of us. So we`d have to logically deduce why they might occur.

This isn`t exactly going to Mars


Beach, let me ask you this - If Mo Johnston moves down the street from you and pays 5x the asking price for a house, would you expect that your house automatically would increase in value five times because Mo's an idiot?
If you ask any real estate agent that exact question they will give you the exact answer you do not want to hear. Maybe your house doesn`t go up exactly 5x over but the transaction does affect the value.

Maybe not the example you want to use.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 08:19 PM
You're completely right. But using our club as an example, we have the outrageous, desperate transactions (Mista) and the opposite (Cann, Nana) on the same street.

Both impact the value of Casa DeRo (which is on the market at $400k)

Stryker
12-27-2010, 08:20 PM
Can I make a motion that anyone using the term "strawman arguement" in the future be subject to a one week ban? No, I'm not serious, but I am sick of the phrase being beaten to death.

Anyway, IF DeRo really has offers for Europe then by all means let him go. He is under contract however and ether they or DeRo himself had better be willing to purchase his way out of it.
Lastly... This isn't the NHL folks. It doesn't take a minimum of 6 years and some shrewd drafting to build a winning team. Soccer is played around the world and let's face it, the standard of the MLS isn't particularly high to begin with.
All it should take is a couple of years with a solid manager with ownership behind him to completely turn this team around regardless of who we currently do or don't have.
Hence all the animosity towards MLSE. It really isn't that hard to build a competent TFC and yet they somehow even manage to muck that up.

ag futbol
12-27-2010, 08:24 PM
You're completely right. But using our club as an example, we have the outrageous, desperate transactions (Mista) and the opposite (Cann, Nana) on the same street.

Both impact the value of Casa DeRo (which is on the market at $400k)
True enough. I`m sure in negotiations any agent would point to JDG as being the more relevant agreement but players earning less on other teams can certainly serve as a counterpoint.

Again, I dont`want to take a side here (paying him or not). I tend to think his value is higher, but Scott is right in that he is under contract and we have every right to be as shrewed as Dero wants to be as long as it suits the end goal of improving this team.

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 08:30 PM
You're completely right. But using our club as an example, we have the outrageous, desperate transactions (Mista) and the opposite (Cann, Nana) on the same street.

Both impact the value of Casa DeRo (which is on the market at $400k)

Yes, both affect the value. And like I said, right now I'm not concerned about DeRo at all, he's under contract so he'll play or payments will be made.

But Nana and Cann won't be under contract next week, less than six weeks to the start of training camp, and as you point out, they're both underpaid. Are their contracts being negotiated now? Are they waiting for the new manager to decide if he wants them? What is going on with this team?

TFCRegina
12-27-2010, 08:32 PM
Even if you're correct (and you're not), you could easily make the case that DeRo deserves no more than $200k because Dan Gargan makes only $40k or Cann (OUR MVP!!!) makes around $60k.

Seems logical, no? Of course not, if you're DeRo's agent.

Actually Roogsy is correct about the market valuation of De Rosario.

He's valued on Marginal Revenue Product. By De Ro scoring more goals in games and contributing more to wins than JDG and Mista by scoring those goals, he makes an explicit case that he's worth more than both those players. Winning games = more people show up at games, scoring goals = more shirts sold.

And if you want to dispute that, ask yourself why Strikers, on average, are paid significantly higher than defenders.

It comes down to MRP. From strictly a business standpoint, De Ro has a higher MRP than JDG. Therefore, if JDG is worth the ~1.3-1.5 (i think) million that he's getting paid then De Rosario should be paid more.

Please take a sports economics class.

Thanks.

TFCRegina
12-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Even if you're correct (and you're not), you could easily make the case that DeRo deserves no more than $200k because Dan Gargan makes only $40k or Cann (OUR MVP!!!) makes around $60k.

Seems logical, no? Of course not, if you're DeRo's agent.

Tell me, aside from being no better than a bench player on most clubs in this league, what has Dan Gargan done for us?

Yes he works hard. But he hardly contributed anything positive to this club last season. He was merely a younger Nick Garcia.

Comparing Gargan to De Ro = FAIL

Chevy
12-27-2010, 08:46 PM
Actually Roogsy is correct about the market valuation of De Rosario.

He's valued on Marginal Revenue Product. By De Ro scoring more goals in games and contributing more to wins than JDG and Mista by scoring those goals, he makes an explicit case that he's worth more than both those players. Winning games = more people show up at games, scoring goals = more shirts sold.

And if you want to dispute that, ask yourself why Strikers, on average, are paid significantly higher than defenders.

It comes down to MRP. From strictly a business standpoint, De Ro has a higher MRP than JDG. Therefore, if JDG is worth the ~1.3-1.5 (i think) million that he's getting paid then De Rosario should be paid more.

Please take a sports economics class.

Thanks.

I'm good on the economics classes, thanks.

See bolded text. This is where your very simplistic and exclusionary argument falls apart. Why not calculate the MRP of other strikers in the league instead of one overpaid defensive mid? Why? Because I think you will find DeRo adequately paid when you do.

Come back with some analysis not some back of napkin BS with an economics term attached to it.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 08:58 PM
This entire argument is made of sand. For starters, the comparison isn't apples-apples. Rooney plays in a league without a salary cap, and a completely different culture surrounding the player-owner relationship.

There doesn't have to be an apples to apples comparison when it comes to the issue of the general ethical view of contracts within the sporting world. Yes each league, country, region whatever is different. But the global view of the value and firmness of a contract should apply to all similarly. If a player in England can renegotiate a contract, so should a player in Canada. After that point, the various regional nuances should apply, which is where you can consider the issue of the salary cap etc.


Secondly, I don't believe what you've said above at all. In fact, a quick search should yield several examples of me railing against the entitlement culture in European football, where contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on, and the clubs have virtually no leverage when it comes to their best players. You're implying cognitive dissonance where absolutely none exists.

I am not saying that your position agreed with Rooney. What I am asking is whether you believe TFC should make a stand and an example in this case against renegotiation mid-contract as some sort of flagbearer against players pressuring their various teams?


"Real dollar terms" are irrelevant to the club. When he came to Toronto, they paid him more money. Whether he loses the difference in taxes or living expenses (highly debatable, and has been discussed before here - athletes have lots of tax loopholes they can exploit), is not relevant to my greater point.

Every team abides by the same cap rules, despite wildly varying tax rates and costs of living across states and countries.

Not debateable at all. I work with Tax Lawyers, Tax Consultants and other wealth professionals as a part of my business and while I help many Americans mitigate the effect of coming to Canada and earning a living that is taxable under Canadian tax laws, the fundamental truth is that anyone making a move north of the border is automatically starting at a disadvantage regardless of how much you try to minimize the effect. So while you try to pain a fortunate picture for DeRo in terms of contract value, in a real measurable way the fact of the matter is that he is not further ahead financially and therefore it is hardly evidence that his move north was done for monetary reasons.


EDIT: And for the record - yes, I think Fergie should have taken a hard stance against Rooney, if he was whining about money. No player is bigger than the club. No cog is bigger than the machine. And Fergie has historically also taken this view of things.

- Scott

I don't disagree. Except for the fact that in the MLS, it is the owners and the league with all the leverage so I don't believe players are unreasonable for taking their own stand when they have an opportunity. Especially considering the weak-ass union they belong to.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:02 PM
Can I make a motion that anyone using the term "strawman arguement" in the future be subject to a one week ban? No, I'm not serious, but I am sick of the phrase being beaten to death.



Gotta call a spade a spade. If we're going to ask people not to use the term "strawman argument" then we should also demand that people not employ that logical fallacy.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 09:03 PM
I just want to know which teams are lined up to pay DeRo $1M. Simple question which hasn't been answered yet.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:04 PM
Even if you're correct (and you're not), you could easily make the case that DeRo deserves no more than $200k because Dan Gargan makes only $40k or Cann (OUR MVP!!!) makes around $60k.

Seems logical, no? Of course not, if you're DeRo's agent.

You could only make that case if Dan Gargan produced anywhere close to DeRo's production. Is that the case? Logic is not selective in it's facts, but apparently you are.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:05 PM
I just want to know which teams are lined up to pay DeRo $1M. Simple question which hasn't been answered yet.


There are teams line up to pay more, I am not going to say who they are or how much because it is not required information for the discussion. You are simply trying to extract information you are not privy to out of curiosity while it does not lend any more weight to either side of the argument.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 09:07 PM
You could only make that case if Dan Gargan produced anywhere close to DeRo's production. Is that the case? Logic is not selective in it's facts, but apparently you are.

Thanks for being immature (maybe you ARE DeRo)

Regardless, what about Nana, Cann, Guevera, and countless other talented players in MLS who are paid less than DeRo.

My point is that the comparisons to JDG and Mista are as equally ridiculous as my comparison to Gargan.

Chevy
12-27-2010, 09:11 PM
There are teams line up to pay more, I am not going to say who they are or how much because it is not required information for the discussion. You are simply trying to extract information you are not privy to out of curiosity while it does not lend any more weight to either side of the argument.

LOL. Back to the "roogsys proprietary information" defense.

If these rich and prestigious mystery teams did in fact exist over the last DECADE, you're telling me that BOTH DeRo AND his agent would remain silent? Buddy, you're kidding yourself.


:drinking:

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 09:13 PM
There are teams line up to pay more, I am not going to say who they are or how much because it is not required information for the discussion. You are simply trying to extract information you are not privy to out of curiosity while it does not lend any more weight to either side of the argument.

It isn't required information for the discussion? One of your major points is that teams are lined up to pay DeRo significantly more than we are, but this point hinges on us just taking your word for it, without any chance to look at the actual evidence critically.

- Scott

Chevy
12-27-2010, 09:17 PM
Funny....a guy who indicates his contract displeasure in the most public of ways remains completely silent about any and all evidence that would support his claim.

Riiiight...

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:20 PM
Thanks for being an immature dick (maybe you ARE DeRo)

Regardless, what about Nana, Cann, Guevera, and countless other talented players in MLS who are paid less than DeRo.

My point is that the comparisons to JDG and Mista are as equally ridiculous as my comparison to Gargan.


I guess all players in MLS should get paid the same? Because that is basically what your argument is here.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:22 PM
Funny....a guy who indicates his contract displeasure in the most public of ways remains completely silent about any and all evidence that would support his claim.

Riiiight...

He is not silent about it. He is selective about who knows. For all you know, he has informed TFC of potential suitors. What he does not need to do is tell you.

Roogsy
12-27-2010, 09:24 PM
It isn't required information for the discussion? One of your major points is that teams are lined up to pay DeRo significantly more than we are, but this point hinges on us just taking your word for it, without any chance to look at the actual evidence critically.

- Scott

Yes my point is that there are teams willing to pay more. What I don't understand is how the details impact the argument of his market value. When you put a house up for sale, you don't care if it's the Jones' or the Smith's that buy it as long as they pay asking price. Just the same, if DeRo gets offers from MLS Team A, MLS team B, Manchester, Barcelona or Buttfuck FC does not matter, it's whether you believe that there are suitors or not. Certainly you are capable of participating in a discussion about his market value without having to know every detail of negotiations with TFC or elsewhere?

Chevy
12-27-2010, 09:26 PM
He is not silent about it. He is selective about who knows. For all you know, he has informed TFC of potential suitors. What he does not need to do is tell you.

Sure Buddy. Whatever. Just like he was selective when he signed that cheque. For all I know, and I know more than you think, he and his agent are full of shit (see Cochrane's comment today)

Call me when the $1M salary comes in.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wI5dx0SiQ5k/RwbYSqyU_7I/AAAAAAAAAtI/8szpTpEnj0s/s400/Belly_laugh.gif

Whoop
12-27-2010, 09:29 PM
There is no way Celtic staffers are not taking about this unless there has been some sort of approach about the player.

If TFC is saying that they have nothing to do with this then it must be DeRo and his agent where these murmurs are coming from.

This is in my mind nothing more than another tactic, like the cheque writing thing, to try and put pressure on TFC to renegotiate his deal when he has no other leverage to force them to do so.

Good for DeRo.

But of all the posts in this thread this is the one that's 100% bang on.

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Thanks for being immature (maybe you ARE DeRo)

Regardless, what about Nana, Cann, Guevera, and countless other talented players in MLS who are paid less than DeRo.

My point is that the comparisons to JDG and Mista are as equally ridiculous as my comparison to Gargan.

Really, unil this team has experienced management that knows what its doing, we're stuck with these kinds of discussions - and with these kinds of problems.

Whatever DeRo is worth, whatever other teams are or are not willing to pay, it should have all been put to rest long ago.

Does anyone really think Paul Mariner is going to be able to come in here and solve all these problems?

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 09:39 PM
Yes my point is that there are teams willing to pay more. What I don't understand is how the details impact the argument of his market value. When you put a house up for sale, you don't care if it's the Jones' or the Smith's that buy it as long as they pay asking price. Just the same, if DeRo gets offers from MLS Team A, MLS team B, Manchester, Barcelona or Buttfuck FC does not matter, it's whether you believe that there are suitors or not. Certainly you are capable of participating in a discussion about his market value without having to know every detail of negotiations with TFC or elsewhere?

Not if the other side of the argument hinges on supposed insider information that we are supposed to just take your word about.

We don't need to know precisely which teams are making offers for DeRo at more than 200% what he is currently making. But we certainly need to know how much other teams are offering, and where your information is coming from, to look at it critically.

Surely you can recognize that. It's why courts don't accept "take my word for it", during trials.

- Scott

Pookie
12-27-2010, 10:27 PM
Just throwing this out there.

If there are clubs willing to pay DeRo more than he is currently making and they have made this known to DeRo/agent... AND... he is currently under contract to Toronto FC...

ummmm... tampering?

If there are million $$$ offers waiting for his services, why hasn't the word "tampering" come up?

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 10:30 PM
Just throwing this out there.

If there are clubs willing to pay DeRo more than he is currently making and they have made this known to DeRo/agent... AND... he is currently under contract to Toronto FC

ummmm... tampering?

I was also going to make this point, but I was trying not to muddy the waters with too many arguments at once. It's also why I'm skeptical that there are actually other teams making these offers.

I'm not familiar with the MLS-specific rules, but I know in the NBA, NHL, and NFL the slightest hint of tampering is punished severely.

- Scott

menefreghista
12-27-2010, 10:31 PM
Just throwing this out there.

If there are clubs willing to pay DeRo more than he is currently making and they have made this known to DeRo/agent... AND... he is currently under contract to Toronto FC...

ummmm... tampering?

If there are million $$$ offers waiting for his services, why hasn't the word "tampering" come up?

I'm assuming TFC is letting DeRosario look for a loan/transfer on his own.

The denials by TFC are meaningless. They hold as much weight as the classic 'vote of confidence' days before a manager ends up fired anyways.

---------------

Edit: Just to expand on this point, under FIFA rules, a player is allowed to openly seek a new contract when he has 6-months left on his current contract. Obviously this is not the case with DeRosario's contract.

We also don't know if DeRosario has any clauses in his contract that allow him to seek work in another league. Its entirely possible that is there and there is nothing nefarious going on here.

Shakes McQueen
12-27-2010, 10:34 PM
The denials by TFC are meaningless. They hold as much weight as the classic 'vote of confidence' days before a manager ends up fired anyways.

I certainly agree with this, haha. Teams always deny anything is ever happening, until it happens. This goes for pretty much any roster move.

- Scott

Beach_Red
12-27-2010, 10:40 PM
I'm assuming TFC is letting DeRosario look for a loan/transfer on his own.

The denials by TFC are meaningless. They hold as much weight as the classic 'vote of confidence' days before a manager ends up fired anyways.

---------------

Edit: Just to expand on this point, under FIFA rules, a player is allowed to openly seek a new contract when he has 6-months left on his current contract. Obviously this is not the case with DeRosario's contract.

We also don't know if DeRosario has any clauses in his contract that allow him to seek work in another league. Its entirely possible that is there and there is nothing nefarious going on here.

And we don't know how clear the communications has been from TFC - who has the authority to tell his agent it's okay to try and find another contract? And then there's the matter of what DeRo was "promised." That may also have been the right to try and find another team if he's not made a DP. Wjo knows, tnat one may have atually been put into the contract.

And, really, if a European team wanted a TFC player, the team would hardly fight it, imagine how difficult that would make it to sign more players in the future.

DeRo could as easily get out of his contract to go play in Scotland as Laurent
Robert did to go play in Greece.

All we know for sure is that training camp opens in six weeks and TFC is in its usual mess.

Pookie
12-27-2010, 10:57 PM
I was also going to make this point, but I was trying not to muddy the waters with too many arguments at once. It's also why I'm skeptical that there are actually other teams making these offers.

I'm not familiar with the MLS-specific rules, but I know in the NBA, NHL, and NFL the slightest hint of tampering is punished severely.

- Scott

I was trying to find some specifics but so far only came up with references to tampering charges being cleared against Seattle for contacting Schmid while he was under contract to the Crew.

I can only assume that such rules exist based on that case.

I could see TFC granting permission for other clubs to discuss long term contracts with DeRo and his agent. But even if they did, I can't see it being an open market. He isn't a free agent/player without a contract.

Presumably, there are rules in place to prevent clubs from talking directly to players under contract with teams in the league unless granted permission by the club.

If DeRo is acting without permission by club... well now... that's a whole new kettle.

DangerRed
12-27-2010, 11:22 PM
So here's a pretty extreme story, tabloid style, on this rumour:


DWAYNE DE ROSARIO wants to show Celtic he's worth a deal alongside MLS mate Freddie Ljungberg.

Canada cap De Rosario, 32, is expected to start a trial with the Hoops this week.
He's fallen out with FC Toronto after being refused a hike on his £6,000-a-week contract - and celebrating a goal by pretending to write a cheque.
Now he's desperate to convince Neil Lennon he can fire Celts to the SPL title and land the bank-busting contract he craves.
Lennon said: "Dwayne might be one we may be able to bring in for a week or so to have a look at him. He's a player who has been put to me. I've not had time to see much of him.
"But hopefully I will get the chance to view some footage of him to see what I think.
"I'm not saying we are going to sign everyone who comes our way and I'm not saying that this is a done deal. But it might just be a little bonus for us along the way without it costing us the Earth. It could be both De Rosario and Ljungberg. There are opportunities."
Toronto captain De Rosario sparked a bitter war of words at his hometown club before the MLS season ended last month.
He earns just 25 per cent of the salary that Ljungberg was on at Chicago Fire and is only the third-highest paid player at Toronto.
Despite being just two seasons into a four-year contract, he feels he is due a pay rise.
He raged: "I think I've shown my commitment to this team, this city and this franchise. It's time for the club to show me some commitment as well.
"Every year I've been showing my worth and it's about time they came to me with something.
"I know of other clubs who have gone to their star players and ripped up their contracts and I think it's only fair. It does get frustrating after a while after you continue to give your all and perform."
But Tom Anselmi, chief executive of club owners Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, hit back and said: "If Dwayne and his agent want to talk us, we're always open to talk.
"Dwayne is our captain and he's an important player here and he's a Torontonian, but he's also under contract.
"At the end of the day, you have a player who has a contract that we opened up when we traded for him. I'm not sure we see renegotiating as something that is pending."
Toronto interim general manager Earl Cochrane even denied that De Rosario would be joining the Hoops on trial.
He said: "Dwayne is not going on trial with Celtic or any other club. We've not received word from anyone and expect him to be with TFC when training camp opens next month."
Former Dundee United star Jason de Vos, now a respected pundit back in Canada, blasted his old international team-mate.
When De Rosario performed his cheque celebration, de Vos described it as "a rare public display of petulance".
De Rosario has been voted Canadian Player of the Year three times.
He has won 55 caps, scoring 15 goals, including one in Canada's 3-1 loss to Scotland in 2002.


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/3320012/Cheque-me-in.html#ixzz19NQU5ymY



But here's a really important quote. Seems the manag' is not even aware of De Ro, but "someone" has proposed that it's a good idea. How much you want to bet it's either Mo or De Ro's agent acting on Mo's behest?:

"He's a player who has been put to me. I've not had time to see much of him."

Stryker
12-27-2010, 11:46 PM
But here's a really important quote. Seems the manag' is not even aware of De Ro, but "someone" has proposed that it's a good idea. How much you want to bet it's either Mo or De Ro's agent acting on Mo's behest?:

"He's a player who has been put to me. I've not had time to see much of him."

I highly doubt it but it also wouldn't surprise me if Mo continued to find ways to fuck up this team after he was fired.

Azerban
12-27-2010, 11:49 PM
if dero ever starts a game for celtic give me a three month ban

bgnewf
12-27-2010, 11:52 PM
Good for DeRo.

But of all the posts in this thread this is the one that's 100% bang on.


Cheers mate.

This is all DeRo and his agent looking for the coin. One way or he other two things needs to happen fast for this club.

We need a new coach and the GM situation needs to be straightened out right the fuck fast. Hopefully by the weekend.

And fucking DeRo needs to come out publicly and state what he wants.

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 12:31 AM
Just throwing this out there.

If there are clubs willing to pay DeRo more than he is currently making and they have made this known to DeRo/agent... AND... he is currently under contract to Toronto FC...

ummmm... tampering?

If there are million $$$ offers waiting for his services, why hasn't the word "tampering" come up?


It's not tampering if proper procedure is followed.

DangerRed
12-28-2010, 12:35 AM
I highly doubt it but it also wouldn't surprise me if Mo continued to find ways to fuck up this team after he was fired.

I think you're probably right. I'm just having a laugh. Nevertheless, it's an unusual connection. I'd be saying the same if it was Rangers instead of Celtic. You have to think, of all the teams in the world, it's this one..

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 02:15 AM
I'm good on the economics classes, thanks.

Really? You don't seem to understand much about it for being good on them.


See bolded text.

Why? Because you don't understand the basic marginal revenue a player generates for his club. Let me explain this in idiot terms. DE RO SELLS SHIT, WHY GET RID OF HIM IN BUSINESS TERMS. Thanks.

[quote[This is where your very simplistic and exclusionary argument falls apart.

Dismissing 200ish years of mostly proven theory in a single sentence. I love it.


hy not calculate the MRP of other strikers in the league instead of one overpaid defensive mid? Why? Because I think you will find DeRo adequately paid when you do.

Easy, because De Ro isn't a striker, he's a midfielder. Compare him to Donovan or other midfielders. He overperforms to the pay he receives.



Come back with some analysis not some back of napkin BS with an economics term attached to it.

Because clearly you've taken a sports economics class, if you call Marginal Revenue Product bullshit. Wonderful! :)

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 02:32 AM
Because clearly you've taken a sports economics class, if you call Marginal Revenue Product bullshit. Wonderful! :)

Using MRP theory in an "industry" that doesn't have an exogenously determined standard wage rate, is kind of ridiculous.

I don't think MRP is BS, but I don't see how you think it perfectly applies here, to an industry essentially dominated by what are private contractors.

Professional athletes don't have their wages continually adjusted based on the value they return to the company. In fact, in most salary capped leagues, having on-field success requires teams to shrewdly contract players for LESS than the perceived "equitable" value they return.

So, how about we stop with the belittling people for not having taken "sports economics classes"?

DeRo's value is whatever the market will pay him. If his value is apparently more than double what he currently makes, then he shouldn't have contracted out his services at the price he ultimately signed for. It was his choice.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 02:45 AM
DeRo's value is whatever the market will pay him. If his value is apparently more than double what he currently makes, then he shouldn't have contracted out his services at the price he ultimately signed for. It was his choice.


This is the problem I have with your position Scott. You keep saying "if he is worth more then he should not have signed the contract" but you fail to acknowledge his right to take measures to correct whatever errors were taken. You act like renegotiation is a rare beast hardly ever seen in the world of sports! Whatever happened 2 years ago is long gone I agree. It cannot be undone. But it can be corrected so why not try? It seems you want to stick DeRo with a mistake and not allow him to employ legal and available measures to correct a mistake we all know he made. Why? Has he not fulfilled his part of the bargain? Can anyone accuse him of not coming through on his contract? If this is not something we can accuse him of, why then would we care if he chooses to employ common and widely used tactics to squeeze a better contract out of a team that basically told him "trust us" and then turned around and screwed him (as they also did with the fans)? Why should he simply roll over? What problem do you have with DeRo using ethical and routine methods to do better for himself and his family? How exactly does it affect you personally that you would care to side with the team (a team that just tried to screw you as a fan remember) rather than the player who just gave you his heart and soul on the pitch?

The fans didn't roll over. Under your premise, we as fans should simply roll over and take the ass-pummeling the team has been trying to give us again this year. I respect my fellow supporters that stood up to the team, and I respect DeRo for doing the same. We're all fighting TFC's inclination to screw us all over but instead of showing solidarity you want to leave DeRo on his own. And here we sing about supporting "the boys on the field". Maybe we should change our songs to say we support the "front office".

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 02:53 AM
Using MRP theory in an "industry" that doesn't have an exogenously determined standard wage rate, is kind of ridiculous.

Since MRP is determined endogenously, that's pretty stupid. It's like determining demand endogenously without any supply. What's the demand for alien product ray guns? Who knows, they're not made yet!


I don't think MRP is BS, but I don't see how you think it perfectly applies here, to an industry essentially dominated by what are private contractors.

Professional athletes don't have their wages continually adjusted based on the value they return to the company. In fact, in most salary capped leagues, having on-field success requires teams to shrewdly contract players for LESS than the perceived "equitable" value they return.Last time I checked most players were paid accordingly to value, MLS or not. NFL players are usually traded if clubs won't pay their value to the team. In MLS on the otherhand, we bitch them out and call them lazy for making a wage less than 3 times what my father makes in a year doing a job that about 10 thousand people can do, where he does a job less than 1000 can do. But yes, you're absolutely right...


So, how about we stop with the belittling people for not having taken "sports economics classes"?Nah, it's rather fun ridiculing the uneducated.


DeRo's value is whatever the market will pay him.Actually, no, and I repeat, it's his value relative to his production. And since no one else is producing, his value rises. Thanks for coming out. Please take a Sports Econ class.


If his value is apparently more than double what he currently makes, then he shouldn't have contracted out his services at the price he ultimately signed for. It was his choice.No one has said it is worth MORE than double what he makes. We're saying it's more than what he makes. Thanks for the facetious argument.

And if you signed a contract for what you make, and if you think you deserve more, wouldn't you ask for more? And if you didn't get it, wouldn't you quit? But we're in the sports realm, where human beings are treated like Chattle, and not worth the pay they're paid. Human Beings are slaves in sports, despite reality.

De Ro is worth more than he's paid, and should be paid to was he's worth.

- Scott[/quote]

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:04 AM
This is the problem I have with your position Scott. You keep saying "if he is worth more then he should not have signed the contract" but you fail to acknowledge his right to take measures to correct whatever errors were taken.

And you keep failing to acknowledge that signing a contract and then exceeding alleged expectations is not an "error". That's how contractors work.

If you sign a contract to landscape someone's lawn for a certain price, then when you're done you decide it's worth more than that, or you have cost overruns - that is YOUR problem. It isn't an "error" to be "corrected".

You know what you do do? You increase your price for the next client, due to the new assessment you've made of your product's value to the market.

DeRo is two years into a four year contract job. He's perfectly within his right to ask the club to renegotiate, and they are perfectly within theirs to decline. In fact, he's allowed to sit naked out front of MLSE HQ and have a hunger strike while squawking like a chicken - but that doesn't mean I have to approve of it, or find it professional. And he's still expected to honour his contract.

This is North American professional sports - some players get overpaid, and some players get underpaid. Same players don't meet expectations, and some players exceed them.

Should New Jersey demand Ilya Kovalchuk take a pay cut right now? Should Kovalchuk accept such a demand, because it's the "fair thing" to do? Or is "fairness" only a one-way street?

I don't deny DeRo's "right" to do what he has done. I've rejected that it's the right or professional thing to do. I've also rejected that TFC have any obligation to renegotiate his contract.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 03:13 AM
The part that bugs me the most out of all this Regina? And the reason why I have been involved in these ridiculous DeRo threads the past couple of months? It's the fact that I am sitting here watching people blast DeRo for what? For a stupid fucking gesture. And they conveniently forget what he has done for TFC the past 2 seasons. Where the FUCK do these people think this team would be without DeRo's 31 goals? So here we have the only player besides Frei who has actually come through (sorry, I know we're all fans of Nana and Cann but it's that Toronto "syndrome" again biggin up some pretty average players) and we'd rather see him run out of town? Can you imagine that happening to Landycakes in LA? Or Messi in Barcelona? Even after Rooney's shenanigans in Manchester, the feeling I got from most fans was disappointment and sadness at the events rather than giving him the big FU and telling to take a hike because they can easily replace him with 2 players that made half of what he made. But here in Toronto, the ONLY producing player we've ever had in our history and we'd give him up for a bag of balls. Toronto sports fans make me sick. It's the same reason why the Leafs make heroes out of fucking Tie Domi.

So there you go guys. The reason I am so insistent on the DeRo issue. Because I can't for the life of me understand how you can possibly believe this team is better off without this player. And after weeks of reading posts by some of you, I have yet to see a good FOOTBALL explanation as to why this team is better off without one of the best players MLS has ever had.

So I am done with this thread. Since Earl has confirmed TFC will not be loaning out DeRo, I assume this particular option is closed to him. But I doubt this is the last we will hear about DeRo's contract...and I for one hope he continues to put the screws to this fucking team that shells out almost $3million in DP salaries to players that haven't had a fraction of the impact he has had for this team. And if we can't appreciate it, at least I hope the new GM and coach will be more intelligent than the fans.

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:15 AM
And if you signed a contract for what you make, and if you think you deserve more, wouldn't you ask for more? And if you didn't get it, wouldn't you quit? But we're in the sports realm, where human beings are treated like Chattle, and not worth the pay they're paid. Human Beings are slaves in sports, despite reality.

For all of your incredible smugness, you continue to miss a major point. DERO IS CONTRACTED TO TORONTO FC. He isn't a wage worker, and hence, MRP is not applicable to him.

He isn't a wage slave who can quit if he thinks he isn't being paid fairly, any more than any private contractor could just walk off the job for the same reason and not be sued for it.

Professional athletes are not "slaves" - they are allowed to dictate the terms of their agreement with their employer, and then are expected to honour that agreement within the framework of contract law. And professional athletes are allowed to make the choice for themselves.

You sign a contract, you are legalyl expected to honour that contract. I assume that's a fairly early lesson in "sports economics". I didn't take sports econ., but I did study regular economics and law at university, and I understand how a contract works.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 03:15 AM
I've also rejected that TFC have any obligation to renegotiate his contract.

And who has said that they are obligated to? Why do people keep putting up strawman arguments?

I've asked you in other threads to give us evidence that DeRo has not fulfilled his contractual obligations or evidence that he plans to do so in the future. Unless you have such proof, I am still scratching my head at what exactly your objection is in this whole situation or why you keep making this the issue.

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 03:17 AM
For all of your incredible smugness, you continue to miss a major point. DERO IS CONTRACTED TO TORONTO FC. He isn't a wage worker, and hence, MRP is not applicable to him.

He isn't a wage slave who can quit if he thinks he isn't being paid fairly, any more than any private contractor could just walk off the job for the same reason and not be sued for it.

Professional athletes are not "slaves" - they are allowed to dictate the terms of their agreement with their employer, and then are expected to honour that agreement within the framework of contract law. And professional athletes are allowed to make the choice for themselves.

You sign a contract, you are legalyl expected to honour that contract. I assume that's a fairly early lesson in "sports economics". I didn't take sports econ., but I did study regular economics and law at university, and I understand how a contract works.

- Scott

Unfortunately, you continue to misunderstand that sports economics are a violation of basic labour law. Think of this as basic labour law and you'll see the problem.

De Ro is in the right, TFC is in the wrong.

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:23 AM
And who has said that they are obligated to? Why do people keep putting up strawman arguments?

I've asked you in other threads to give us evidence that DeRo has not fulfilled his contractual obligations or evidence that he plans to do so in the future. Unless you have such proof, I am still scratching my head at what exactly your objection is in this whole situation.

You use the "strawman argument" accusation entirely too much, in places where it doesn't apply.

I am arguing against those who think that TFC should renegotiate his contract, because DeRo wants it. I am arguing against those who think it's perfectly acceptable for him to "correct" the "error" of performing above his current pay grade, and that it's perfectly normal for him to.

I don't like it when any player does it, regardless of DeRo and his earlier cheque-signing antics.

- Scott

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 03:28 AM
You use the "strawman argument" accusation entirely too much, in places where it doesn't apply.

I am arguing against those who think that TFC should renegotiate his contract, because DeRo wants it. I am arguing against those who think it's perfectly acceptable for him to "correct" the "error" of performing above his current pay grade, and that it's perfectly normal for him to.

I don't like it when any player does it, regardless of DeRo and his earlier cheque-signing antics.

- Scott

And, to translate for myself and secondarily: Roogsy (probably in a rough manner): You don't know shit about managing.

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 03:29 AM
Of course it applies Scott. Nobody's position on this board has ever been that TFC is "obligated" to renegotiate. Therefore by inferring that those of us on DeRo's side of the issue believe it is an obligation on their part, you are misrepresenting our position. Thus it is a strawman argument. Unless you can point to evidence where someone has indicated that this is in fact an obligation of the team, you have raised an argument that nobody has made satisfying the conditions of the fallacy.

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:31 AM
Of course it applies Scott. Nobody's position on this board has ever been that TFC is "obligated" to renegotiate. Therefore by inferring that those of us on DeRo's side of the issue believe it is an obligation on their part, you are misrepresenting our position. Thus it is a strawman argument. Unless you can point to evidence where someone has indicated that this is in fact an obligation of the team, you have raised an argument that nobody has made satisfying the conditions of the fallacy.

For the sake of not further going down this largely pointless rabbit hole, I will point out that whether they are obligated to renegotiate has been a small fraction of my overall argument all night.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:36 AM
And, to translate for myself and secondarily: Roogsy (probably in a rough manner): You don't know shit about managing.

You know, for a guy I generally agree with on most things, you sure do morph into a jerk pretty quickly. There's absolutely no need for the continuous ad hominem bomb throwing, and I suspect a moderator would have told you to tone it down by now, if the only one here didn't happen to be on your side of the argument.

As for the limited substance of your post, proper management doesn't mean always capitulating to money demands from players. Emmanuel Adebayor made a bunch of noise at Arsenal a couple of years ago, saying he wanted a raise (despite still having a contract). What did Wenger do? Sold him, and moved on.

NHL players almost never publicly demand more money, or contract renegotiation, until it's actually time to negotiate a new deal. NFL players have historically been benched or traded when they whine about money in the middle of a contract. NBA I don't follow as closely.

- Scott

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 03:41 AM
NHL players almost never publicly demand more money, or contract renegotiation, until it's actually time to negotiate a new deal. NFL players have historically been benched or traded when they whine about money in the middle of a contract. NBA I don't follow as closely.

- Scott

As per NHL players: [youtube]-tNVwQUJoik[/quote]

As for me calling you out for what you are, no apologies.

De Rosario is underappreciated. I don't turn into a jerk unless it's necessary.

I recognize I've probably been a dick. I'm also hammered as shit.

But that's irregardless of the matter. When it comes down ito it De Ro is necessary for this club's succcess at this time. And I think you're wrong about the point s you make. People can judge me for what i've said, but I stand by my comments.

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 03:43 AM
I am going to bed, but I wanted to point out that I highly disagree with the way you have characterized professional athletes in other sports. Whether it be in the NHL, the NFL or the NBA, contract issues (as well as renegotiations) at the end of contracts or in the middle of contracts (or similarly to DeRo's contract, negotiations during OPTION years) is actually quite common. I think you're using hasty generalizations and selective facts to support your position. Much like your objection to demands of renegotiation, I am not sure why you would have a problem with such a common occurrence in sport.

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:45 AM
If you disagree with me, then just say that. The name-calling is unnecessary. I will pin it on the alcohol.

This seems like as good a point as any to end my participation in the discussion.

- Scott

TFCRegina
12-28-2010, 03:51 AM
If you disagree with me, then just say that. The name-calling is unnecessary. I will pin it on the alcohol.

This seems like as good a point as any to end my participation in the discussion.

- Scott

I apogogize for bad names i may have said, but i stand by the comment that getting rid of De Ro is a good idea.

Shakes McQueen
12-28-2010, 03:54 AM
I am going to bed, but I wanted to point out that I highly disagree with the way you have characterized professional athletes in other sports. Whether it be in the NHL, the NFL or the NBA, contract issues (as well as renegotiations) at the end of contracts or in the middle of contracts (or similarly to DeRo's contract, negotiations during OPTION years) is actually quite common. I think you're using hasty generalizations and selective facts to support your position. Much like your objection to demands of renegotiation, I am not sure why you would have a problem with such a common occurrence in sport.

Only in European soccer is it commonplace to demand a pay increase mid-contract. I stand by that assertion. Does it happen in other leagues on the odd occasion? It sure does - every general rule has it's exceptions.

In North American sports, contract re-negotiation is only common when a player is nearing the end of their current contract, and the team wants to get a head start on negotiating an extension. Re-negotiation also happens a lot in the season before a player-option year, because they player wants more money, and in that situation he also has leverage. Neither situation applies to DeRo. He has two club-option years, and is at the halfway point of his four year contract.

I'm not hastily generalizing anything, and I'm certainly not fixated on DeRo's cheque gesture late in the season (as you implied in a previous post). I have a broad objection to athletes complaining about the contracts they sign, simply because they realize after the fact that they could be making more. And sadly it's all too common in professional soccer overseas.

- Scott

TFC Bhoy
12-28-2010, 07:11 AM
Well apparently it just goes to show how much TFC FO knows as they said DeRo is NOT going on a trail to Celtic or any club...........yet here is a new story with PICTURE of him training at Lennoxtown (Celtic's training ground) with Freddie

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/editor-s-picks/new-bhoys-dwayne-and-freddie-check-in-at-lennoxtown-1.1076854?

TFC Bhoy
12-28-2010, 07:14 AM
Neil Lennon's first thoughts on DeRo from a different source: "'He is in today. He's a similar player to Shaun Maloney, he likes to play off the left and come inside.

'He is a skilful, sharp and intelligent player.
'Again it's an opportunity for us to have a look and see what he can offer us, and he's here for a week.'"

London
12-28-2010, 07:23 AM
TFC should be embarrased for putting this article out yesterday,

having ticket reps and supporters do your articles might not be the best idea

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/12/reds-quash-de-ro-rumours

TFC Bhoy
12-28-2010, 07:57 AM
^^ya it really makes them look like they have no idea whats going on with their own players. I just don't believe that DeRo went there behind anyones back without anyone knowning anything. Seems really unlikely to me

Menelaos
12-28-2010, 08:11 AM
Actually read most of the posts since my last one and I had a good chuckle.
Gotta tell you Scott, I've been guilty in the past of just scanning through your posts but I intend on reading them from now on. Very well written logical arguments on your part. Shame certain people get their blinders on and miss most of your points.

As for Dero actually training at Lennoxtown, well someone is lying. Either Cochrain is full of it, or Dero is not honoring his contract. I'd lean on FO lying, but I don't have inside information so on my part its pure speculation.

Pookie
12-28-2010, 08:30 AM
... It's the fact that I am sitting here watching people blast DeRo for what? For a stupid fucking gesture. And they conveniently forget what he has done for TFC the past 2 seasons. Where the FUCK do these people think this team would be without DeRo's 31 goals? ...

The reason I am so insistent on the DeRo issue. Because I can't for the life of me understand how you can possibly believe this team is better off without this player. And after weeks of reading posts by some of you, I have yet to see a good FOOTBALL explanation as to why this team is better off without one of the best players MLS has ever had.



The key in your post... "one of the best players MLS ever had"

You are asking the team to commit more $$$ and term to a player who has scored a number of goals. Whether his style of play and ability to lead this team have ever amounted to anything here in Toronto is a matter of debate but let's agree that he is a good footballer with significant numbers to his credit.

Let's also agree that he will be 33 before this season is 1/3 of the way done.

Let's also agree that skills decline with age.

Let's also agree that we don't know exactly when that decline will happen but the older a player is, the closer they are to that "tipping point."

Let's also agree that the retirement age for soccer players is somewhere in their 30's.

So, in offering a new contract (which he is forcing), will we "get what we pay for"? Or will be committing big dollars and a DP slot, to a player that is past his prime?

It is clear that the risk to TFC in committing $$$ and term (even extending more $$$ over the remaining term) is significant given the player's age and the reality of his pending skill decline.

Using a Leaf analogy, it's like when they signed 31 year old unrestricted free agents to lengthy deals... or shipped out draft picks for players at the trade deadline with a storied history who quickly hit the downside of their careers. Some of those moves panned out (eg. Curtis Joseph) but the bulk didn't (ie. Owen Nolan, Brian Leetch, Doug Gilmour 2nd edition, Wendel Clark 2nd edition, etc).

Age was and is a very real factor in team building decisions.

Chevy
12-28-2010, 09:19 AM
^^ Once again, logic rears its ugly head.

CBTFC
12-28-2010, 10:52 AM
Agreed, great post Pookie.

Waggy
12-28-2010, 11:06 AM
Well said Pookie

Roogsy
12-28-2010, 11:13 AM
With the thread on DeRo trialing with Celtic and the thread on TFC/Cochrane's reaction, let's close this one up and continue over there. Is everyone ok with that?