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View Full Version : A point regarding De Guzman I haven't seen made



thisisinternetclash
12-01-2010, 10:58 PM
De Guzman is still under contract with TFC for another two years, provided the month or so he played in 2009 didn't count as the first year of this three-year deal. Which is possible. Even in that case, he's under contract for another year, though. Obviously he had a poor season last year relative to what his pay would suggest he is capable of, by any objective measure. The consensus opinion is that he's not particularly suited to the league. It's not necessarily my argument, but there's a persuasive argument that his contract is seriously inhibiting the ability of the club to put together an effective roster.

So, why not sell him?

Having a player of his calibre under contract is surely an asset. He's getting older, is not on a long term deal, and is coming off an ineffective season, so his value on the open market isn't astronomical by any means, but it seems pretty plausible that a few middling Spanish, Dutch, or Mexican clubs would be interested in him were he made available.

Obviously he would have to agree to the move, but players are persuaded to leave/forced out of clubs all the time. It doesn't seem unreasonable that a club would see value in signing him for, say, $3 million USD. That would retroactively cover all of his wages as a TFC player and even secure MLSE a profit on him, and allow the club to move forward with a clean slate.

I don't imagine this will happen, and am not sure that I think this would be the wisest course of action, but it seems like something that should be an attractive option to plenty of people, including many who actually have the authority to influence such a move.

Is this something that MLSE would countenance?

Azerban
12-01-2010, 11:00 PM
he wasn't worth paying for when we got him, why would he be worth paying for now

MartinUtd
12-01-2010, 11:00 PM
Nobody took him on a free so why would they buy him from MLS after a poor season?

TorCanSoc
12-01-2010, 11:03 PM
Not until he gets a hair cut. And I don't know... accidentally scores a goal or two, and prevents 8 or 9.

boozilla
12-01-2010, 11:24 PM
He needs to man-up and decide how he wants to spend the next 5-7 years.

TOBOR !
12-01-2010, 11:35 PM
Really. It's not as if he was in high demand and we outbid all other suitors. Initially he turned us down and only signed on when he realised there was nowhere else to go. And let's be honest, his marketability didn't improve over the course of this past season.

Super
12-01-2010, 11:39 PM
Based on his performance this past season I honestly don't see even lower league Scandinavian teams wanting him - so I think the idea of selling him is dead on arrival. He's capable of so much better, but he hasn't shown that for TFC quite yet. Until he does he'll remain low value - in this league and internationally.

BS1327
12-01-2010, 11:50 PM
I think what it comes down to is the fact we don't have a winger.

Since we don't have that player to play the ball up the side of the pitch, we attack up the middle. Hence why we're getting no where, and why we just boot the ball up feild to clear it rather than make a move up the flanks.


With this, De Guz has no one to dump it off to when he's surrounded in the middle, resulting in give aways and angry fans.


That's not to excuse all his sloppy play. I really hope he turns it around next year, because I do want to cheer for him, and I'm sure there are people here that do too.

ag futbol
12-02-2010, 12:07 AM
Nobody took him on a free so why would they buy him from MLS after a poor season?
Bingo.

And really, nobody is going to pay his wage bill. He's overpaid relative to what he offers.

Carts
12-02-2010, 12:45 AM
So, why not sell him?


Sell him to who???

He was a SUB-PAR member of the MLS (on Toronto FC), so why would anyone, other than USL Div-2 purchase him for anything of value...???

A player of "his calibre" ??? - what does that mean? AKA - a player playing as terrible as he has been.

His rep, his stock, his value, are all GONE...

Every club, every GM, every manager, every scout, has seen his current performance, and has his value set as such...

Spanish clubs, the Dutch, and the Mexicans all scout matches - so they have all watched his performance. They all know his impact, and they will all will act accordingly...

Mista is the best thing that ever happened to JDG, b/c it took the stigma of worst DP signing of all-time off of him (maybe JDG knew what he was doing BRINGING MISTA here)...

Stryker
12-02-2010, 03:23 AM
When you look at wage vs. performance Nick Garcia is a better player than De Guzman. Would you pay money for Garcia?

Milky
12-02-2010, 04:29 AM
One of the problems with having Guzi in our lineup is that he needs quality players around him, which we quite frankly haven't had. It doesn't matter how well you can set up an attack if the players around you aren't good enough to finish. Can you imagine how poor Messi's cutting through-ball to Villa would have looked on Monday if Peterson had been on the receiving end (inevitably mis-controlling said pass)?

Presumably TFC will find better players to play alongside Guzi so this won't always be a problem. Also, relative to the salary cap hit, Guzi only makes $335,000.00 per year. To put that into perspective, Carl Robinson made roughly the same amount playing for TFC, except that Robinson was older and not as skillful. In other words, Guzi is good value for money at $335,000 (who cares what else MLSE pay him?) and it's not as if he's handicapping us in DP spots. Even if we made DeRo a DP we'd still have another one to potentially play around with.

Also, Guzi is a marketable asset for Toronto FC. As a hometown boy he sells a lot of jerseys and is a noticable presence in all TFC advertising. This is an asset that shouldn't be ignored.

Furthermore, Guzi was blacklisted from La Liga so he won't be going back there. Ever. It is not an option. Maybe we could sell him back to the Bundesliga but as someone who lives in Munich I can tell you that there is zero interest for Guzi at the moment. Not saying that he's not good enough, just that there's currently no interest for his services.

I also still say that he should be moved up into a more attacking role. He has the ability to be a game-changer in MLS.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 07:37 AM
de Guzman has completely torpedoed his stock value since coming to Toronto FC. I can't imagine there's any club willing to pay a $3M USD transfer fee for him right now.

If the new regime do truly remake the roster, I'd be willing to see how de Guzman fits in and plays within it. I don't think he has forgotten how to play football in less than two years.

It's much like a used car - JDG is now worth more to us than he currently is to anyone else.

Of course, if anyone really is willing to pay good money for him, go ahead.

- Scott

ensco
12-02-2010, 07:57 AM
Moving him out might be possible/interesting, on a free transfer, if the club can eat some part of his remaining salary without taking a cap hit. I have no idea if the rules permit that.

Mark TFC
12-02-2010, 08:40 AM
Not until he gets a hair cut. And I don't know... accidentally scores a goal or two, and prevents 8 or 9.

Well, one of your wishes came true - He trimmed the 'fro to about half the size.

I know he hasn't had the most effective season with the club, but I definately wouldn't mind keeping him around for another season or two to see iif he's capable of more.

Yes, he costs a lot of money and he's not a scoring midfielder, but he is one of our best in the midfield position. Call me crazy, but I'd actually be a little upset if we got rid of him.

Oldtimer
12-02-2010, 09:29 AM
Nobody took him on a free so why would they buy him from MLS after a poor season?

He was blacklisted in Spain due to speaking out about being unpaid.
Had nothing to do with his play at Depor (which was so impressive, he was player of the year).

Sure he's been mediocre in MLS. He's a good player in the wrong league, coupled with a crap team that couldn't handle his strengths.

He had options in Europe, but at lower wages than here. I imagine that would still be the case, and if TFC swallows anything above the league maximum, we're still having the maximum cap hit, so there is no advantage.

What we really need is a great coach who can help JDG adjust to MLS' type of play. He can't do anything about his hight, but he could learn new styles of play. Either that, or ship him to Montreal. :D

To those who imagine that Euro clubs are carefully scrutinizing his play in MLS - I seriously doubt it. His agent will send the clubs tapes of him with Depor, and that's all that they will look at.

ManUtd4ever
12-02-2010, 09:39 AM
The reality is that JDG is here to stay for the duration of his contract because of his exorbitant salary. Our only hope is that JDG will feel more acclimated with the MLS style of play in his second full season and that he will be able to provide a consistent effort that enabled him to be standout on a few occasions last season...

Wull
12-02-2010, 10:03 AM
Call me crazy, but I'd actually be a little upset if we got rid of him.


you're fucking certifiable

Section 117
12-02-2010, 10:06 AM
The reality is that JDG is here to stay for the duration of his contract because of his exorbitant salary. Our only hope is that JDG will feel more acclimated with the MLS style of play in his second full season and that he will be able to provide a consistent effort that enabled him to be standout on a few occasions last season...


Two things need to happen for your statement to ring true:

1. TFC gets more talented players for JDG to work with and we play a possesion oriented game.

2. MLS turns around and becomes a less physical and atheletic league and becomes more skill oriented.

The first one is possible and the second one not going to happen any time soon.

When JDG played against Cruz Azul at home he was at his best because this is what he is use to and how he has always played. He came from a technical league where possesion and skill are more important then atheletic ability and size. Where as the MLS is more physical league and possesion football is a dream due to the lack of soccer IQ and skill

J .
12-02-2010, 11:45 AM
If we get sime width in our lineup I think his abilities to distribute will improve instead of always having to look for DeRo.

Also, he needs to cut his hair or put it into cornrows, whenver his hair is like that he cant play.

jloome
12-02-2010, 11:56 AM
When you look at wage vs. performance Nick Garcia is a better player than De Guzman. Would you pay money for Garcia?

Jesus people, he's not that bad. A little perspective.

Stryker
12-02-2010, 12:01 PM
Jesus people, he's not that bad. A little perspective.
No he really is. A few successful years in spain and a canadian birth certificate in his back pocket seem to blind too many to just how bad he was. For every great moment he had on the pitch he had three piss poor ones. He actually got worse as the season went on.
And what little important games we did have, he didn't show up for. He was completely disinterested.
The sooner this mercenary is off the team the better IMO.

jabbronies
12-02-2010, 12:11 PM
de Guzman has completely torpedoed his stock value since coming to Toronto FC. I can't imagine there's any club willing to pay a $3M USD transfer fee for him right now.

If the new regime do truly remake the roster, I'd be willing to see how de Guzman fits in and plays within it. I don't think he has forgotten how to play football in less than two years.

It's much like a used car - JDG is now worth more to us than he currently is to anyone else.

Of course, if anyone really is willing to pay good money for him, go ahead.

- Scott

He has played like shit the past season and a bit. he can't hold on to the ball and has been inconsistent with his passing. So basically he hasn't done the two things we've paid him for.

However I'm willing to give him a second chance under a new system, but if he hasn't found his legs by June/July, I'm done with him.

trane
12-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Hahahahahhahhaha. JDG as bad as Garcia. Hahahahahahahahah. Seriously, paycheck or not, that is a funny and biased comment.


He gets paid too much for a DM in this league. However, he is one of the best if not the best DM in this league. However, with a team like ours, there is no point in having him. I was for signing him, I thought that he could be our Pirlo/Gattuso and organize us and make the players aournd him more effective, both in attack and defense, however, that has not worked as they simply not on the same page. Still De Ro and him are our two best players, skill and footy IQ wise. It has not meant much in the final tally, and anybody can go as far as I am concenre. HOWEVER, this should be left for whomever takes over.

Stryker
12-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Hahahahahhahhaha. JDG as bad as Garcia. Hahahahahahahahah. Seriously, paycheck or not, that is a funny and biased comment.
Hahahahahahaha learn to read. Hahahahaha. Seriously, before you run off at the mouth, learn to read.

trane
12-02-2010, 12:37 PM
^ ahhahhahahhahhah. I know to read. hahahahahahha. I know to read. AND I still laugh at your comment. Hahahahhahahah.

I understood your silly comparison, is dollar for dollar, but it makes no sense, not to anyone that has seen Garcia play, and understantds why JDG has not done well with us. This is a team game, WE ARE SHITE as a team, we have been shite as a team for a long time, I know most of you would love to make it about one player or another, but it is not, TFC ARE SHITE, and have been shite for the most part for four years, it is not welshy, or lombardo, or cunny, or JDG, or whomever, we are a shite organization, that puts a shite team on the ground. You could put Messi on the pitch and we would still be shite. I mean that. Sure he would score goals, but that gets you only so far.

Stryker
12-02-2010, 12:45 PM
^ ahhahhahahhahhah. I know to read. hahahahahahha. I know to read. AND I still laugh at your comment. Hahahahhahahah.
Ok lets look at it this way, both JDG and Garcia were left unprotected in the draft.
Garcia with his poor play has a contact of $198,000 that will expire in a month.
JDG with his poor play, has a contract for 2 more years at $1.7 million.
And you're telling me that if one of them had been chosen in the expansion draft you would rather it be Garcia?

trane
12-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Anyway my laughing is out of line. I am just tiered of year after year, we find A player or TWO to blame for the failure of the squad and the organizations. Our problems have been greater, and untill we understand that they will continue to continue.

trane
12-02-2010, 12:48 PM
So when both JDG and Garcia were left unprotected in the draft.
Garcia with his poor play has a contact of $198,000 that will expire in a JDG with his poor play, has a contract for 2 more years at $1.7 million.
And you're telling me that if one of them had been chosen in the expansion draft you would rather it be Garcia?

They put JDG on there because they new no one would take him at that price in this league. On the pitch I would rather have JDG. Yes I would still keep JDG and hope he develops with the team in what we hope it can be. We need players with skill and IQ. De Ro and JDG are two of them.

However, again I would not be upset with any one player leaving. We need and overhaul, and I leave it to whomever takes over to make the decisions.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 12:49 PM
He has played like shit the past season and a bit. he can't hold on to the ball and has been inconsistent with his passing. So basically he hasn't done the two things we've paid him for.

However I'm willing to give him a second chance under a new system, but if he hasn't found his legs by June/July, I'm done with him.

Same here. Like I said - at this point he's worth more to us than anyone else, so it's worth giving him a shot to see how he plays with a new manager, a bunch of new players, and a new system.

If he continues to underwhelm, then you cut him loose, and move on.

- Scott

trane
12-02-2010, 12:51 PM
I will also say that some of the best footy that we have seen from TFC has been in CONCAF when they were cliking, JDG was a big part of that, as was De Ro.


I will also have to say some of the fault must be put on Preky, I am the first to ask for defensive footy. But how do you play that without spending time on tactics. Part of tactics to me, is organizing exactly were players are going to be, were they will run too, exetera, that contributes greatly to efficient passing. Players can pass quickly without spending alot of time looking, Barca is a great example of this, and that is how they control the ball, that is also part of good defensive football, example last years Inter.

Stryker
12-02-2010, 12:53 PM
They put JDG on there because they new no one would take him at that price in this league. On the pitch I would rather have JDG. Yes I would still keep JDG and hope he develops with the team in what we hope it can be. We need players with skill and IQ. De Ro and JDG are two of them.

However, again I would not be upset with any one player leaving. We need and overhaul, and I leave it to whomever takes over to make the decisions.
Yes but you mocked me because I said that when you look at how much they make, along with how they played this past season that Garcia was the more desirable player. Now you just mentioned how bad the team is overall, so which of these two players do you think hinders our chances of building a stronger team going forward more?

Jeffro
12-02-2010, 01:04 PM
Anyway my laughing is out of line. I am just tiered of year after year, we find A player or TWO to blame for the failure of the squad and the organizations. Our problems have been greater, and untill we understand that they will continue to continue.

Yeah, seriously. Always some scapegoat because people aren't creative enough to break down our flaws tactically. A DM with no wide players to pass to, a DM with no proper attacking mid to pass to, in a team where the other midfielders were essentially nonexistent all season, blame the DM. His game is not suited to MLS? Give me a break, Beckerman plays a very similar game to De Guzman, and is very successful in a team that runs a good tactical system.

No he's just clearly not good enough for MLS.

Wull
12-02-2010, 01:51 PM
How about a DM that fucking tackles?! Are you going to blame everybody but the lazy cunt for that too? He gets knocked down, shits out of tackles, let's people run past without even challenging. I hate garcia but I'd take him in a heartbeat over de guzman currently. Garcia at least winds opponents up, tackles and occasionally gets forward thus surpassing expectations after a poor start to the season. All jdg does is wind me up!!

Jeffro
12-02-2010, 02:06 PM
LOL, nope, nothing to do with tactics. :lol:

trane
12-02-2010, 03:30 PM
Yeah, seriously. Always some scapegoat because people aren't creative enough to break down our flaws tactically. A DM with no wide players to pass to, a DM with no proper attacking mid to pass to, in a team where the other midfielders were essentially nonexistent all season, blame the DM. His game is not suited to MLS? Give me a break, Beckerman plays a very similar game to De Guzman, and is very successful in a team that runs a good tactical system.

No he's just clearly not good enough for MLS.

Amen. That is exactly it.

trane
12-02-2010, 03:31 PM
Yes but you mocked me because I said that when you look at how much they make, along with how they played this past season that Garcia was the more desirable player. Now you just mentioned how bad the team is overall, so which of these two players do you think hinders our chances of building a stronger team going forward more?

Garcia. JDG can be part of the sollution.

trane
12-02-2010, 03:38 PM
How about a DM that fucking tackles?! Are you going to blame everybody but the lazy cunt for that too? He gets knocked down, shits out of tackles, let's people run past without even challenging. I hate garcia but I'd take him in a heartbeat over de guzman currently. Garcia at least winds opponents up, tackles and occasionally gets forward thus surpassing expectations after a poor start to the season. All jdg does is wind me up!!

He is not the quickest DM around. I give you that. But this is partly the issue of tactics in that he plays with too much space around him, he does not have the clossing speed, to deal with that, and he could be stronger.

BUT stronger and faster and he is likely not here.

Listen I do not thik JDG is the saviour, but no one player is the saviour or the cause of the problem.


Every year we do this. Year one, our issues were Lombardo, Welshy, Cunny.

Year two, it was Cunny, Samuel and Barrett.

year three, Garcia, JDG , Barret.

ect. , ect.. I think what we shuold be bitching about that another year has gone, and yet still no sign of a new management team.

Pachuco
12-02-2010, 03:54 PM
JDG at his best isn't worth what he gets payed today. Alonzo isn't worth what JDG gets payed and he's the best damn DM in the league if you ask me. If Rafa was a nobody like De Guzman then he also wouldn't be worth what he gets payed. But he's obviously a massive name that probably makes up for it in jersey sales and in what his name does to promote the MLS.

So essentially, we are stuck with a player nobody knows (including most Canadians) who under-performs. It's a double whammy. De Guzman was obviously a terrible DP choice. Although I'll say that when this deal was announced, I was extatic.

Mark TFC
12-02-2010, 04:09 PM
you're fucking certifiable

Don't think so pal. Everyone has their opinion - I am entitled to mine.

Can we keep de Guzman on the team and kick you off the boards instead?

razor787
12-02-2010, 04:22 PM
Don't think so pal. Everyone has their opinion - I am entitled to mine.

Can we keep de Guzman on the team and kick you off the boards instead?

Lets not turn this into a e-fight.

Pachuo- I agree. DeGuzman was a horrible signing. For the money he definately isnt worth it, but if he was playing as good as he was in spain, I would definately give him the money.

When he signed on, I immediately bought his Jersey. Was a terrible choice looking back on it. I had to, and will continue to have to go to games with his name on my back, saying I support him.

I did for the longest time, but you cant defend the guy any more. His play is terrible. When he touches the ball, you can tell he has more skill in his weak foot, than anyone else has on their strong foot, but he has never done anything about it.

People may say that its because the people around him are crap, but being in the league this long, he should have figured out how to read them by now.

J .
12-02-2010, 04:36 PM
JDG has quality, but he doesnt have the attitude. I think he got a little too full of himself and thought he was going to be a top player and it would be easy living. The best Ive ever seen him play is in the GC's in an attacking role, why he wanted to play defensive is beyond me.

I believe however if TFC had DP width in their lineup, JDG would be a lot better with guys who actually move off the ball aside from DeRo or Barrett (before he got hurt and Preki was fired).

If TFC had guys who could play wide, we make the playoffs.

Wull
12-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Don't think so pal. Everyone has their opinion - I am entitled to mine.

Can we keep de Guzman on the team and kick you off the boards instead?


that was meant as a joke, nothing more

Kaz
12-02-2010, 04:51 PM
I'm going to play Devil Advocate here, JDG played a holding mid role with two decent defenders behind him, and with really... DeRo, Barrett and Santos up front... the rest of the time he had horrible players around him, playing a system that results in him having no one to play to.. more then that other teams pounced on him repeatedly, because DeRo was the only other threat on the field under Preki's system.

Why not see what happens with a Coach that can coach players of more then a NASL/USL-1/USSF-D2 quality... I mean really when Preki started coaching, the MLS and the current North American D2 league were on par with one another. MLS has gotten too good for Preki... he brought in sub par players, and refused to play any sort of offensive game.

What did JDG have to do this year other then pass it to clueless players.

Lets get one or two 150-200k wingers on the field with DeRo, and Santos and a DP striker. The lets add a half decent LB and RB. and see if JDG can actually play if he has some guys around him that A) speak the same language, and B) have some skill.

If he can't, find someone that can do what he does now at 200K. send him packing and bring depth player or two in.

Wull
12-02-2010, 05:04 PM
He is not the quickest DM around. I give you that. But this is partly the issue of tactics in that he plays with too much space around him, he does not have the clossing speed, to deal with that, and he could be stronger.

BUT stronger and faster and he is likely not here.

Listen I do not thik JDG is the saviour, but no one player is the saviour or the cause of the problem.


Every year we do this. Year one, our issues were Lombardo, Welshy, Cunny.

Year two, it was Cunny, Samuel and Barrett.

year three, Garcia, JDG , Barret.

ect. , ect.. I think what we shuold be bitching about that another year has gone, and yet still no sign of a new management team.

ok so what qualities of a DM does he excel at? I know he's not the cause of everything that's wrong with the club but he wants to be a DM, he was a DM in a defensive team and he was poor most of the time. Garcia was a liability in the centre of the defence but was actually pretty serviceable as a left back for most of the games he played there and Barrett started burying a lot more one on ones for whatever reason. Where can we play jdg where he's going to make a beneficial impact next season?

trane
12-02-2010, 06:09 PM
^ Garcia was OK at left back, I agree. JDG was far from perfect I agree. I am not his defender.

We were supposed to be a defense first team, but to often there was to much space in the midle. He is not particullalry fast, and not particullarly strong. BUT when the team was compact he positioned himself well and was able to cover and tackle, and conversily was able to make the pass to the more attacking players. When we did not success, neither did he, because we were not compact, he could not make the passess, and could not cover in space, as he does not have the speed.

rocker
12-02-2010, 07:18 PM
even dollar for dollar, JDG was still better than Garcia.. hehehe. :)

call me a clueless Garcia hater, but even his best games at left back could be described as "wow, garcia didn't make a clear error today." That's his best games. His worst games were catastrophic. At 200K that's still worse value than JDG in the millions. JDG's worst games were not costing us wins. His best games were solid.

I still think JDG is massively overpaid tho, in the MLS context.

TFCREDNWHITE
12-03-2010, 10:50 AM
One of the problems with having Guzi in our lineup is that he needs quality players around him, which we quite frankly haven't had. It doesn't matter how well you can set up an attack if the players around you aren't good enough to finish. Can you imagine how poor Messi's cutting through-ball to Villa would have looked on Monday if Peterson had been on the receiving end (inevitably mis-controlling said pass)?

Presumably TFC will find better players to play alongside Guzi so this won't always be a problem. Also, relative to the salary cap hit, Guzi only makes $335,000.00 per year. To put that into perspective, Carl Robinson made roughly the same amount playing for TFC, except that Robinson was older and not as skillful. In other words, Guzi is good value for money at $335,000 (who cares what else MLSE pay him?) and it's not as if he's handicapping us in DP spots. Even if we made DeRo a DP we'd still have another one to potentially play around with.

Also, Guzi is a marketable asset for Toronto FC. As a hometown boy he sells a lot of jerseys and is a noticable presence in all TFC advertising. This is an asset that shouldn't be ignored.

Furthermore, Guzi was blacklisted from La Liga so he won't be going back there. Ever. It is not an option. Maybe we could sell him back to the Bundesliga but as someone who lives in Munich I can tell you that there is zero interest for Guzi at the moment. Not saying that he's not good enough, just that there's currently no interest for his services.

I also still say that he should be moved up into a more attacking role. He has the ability to be a game-changer in MLS.

Well said! Fully agree!

trane
12-03-2010, 10:59 AM
even dollar for dollar, JDG was still better than Garcia.. hehehe. :)

call me a clueless Garcia hater, but even his best games at left back could be described as "wow, garcia didn't make a clear error today." That's his best games. His worst games were catastrophic. At 200K that's still worse value than JDG in the millions. JDG's worst games were not costing us wins. His best games were solid.

I still think JDG is massively overpaid tho, in the MLS context.

Agreed. Garcia worked better at left back, because when he made mistakes it was not right in front of goal.

Carts
12-03-2010, 11:02 AM
I HATE when people say "he needs better players around him"...

Uhhhh - EVERYONE wants & needs better players around them...

EVEN GARCIA, yes Garcia, will look BETTER with better players around him...

IMO, we need to stop making excuses for a player that has been an epic fail and move on...

Put any professional on Real Madrid, in a DM role, and they will look fine most of the time - put that same player on TFC, and the weakness is EXPOSED...

JDG's play, ability, has been exposed while he has been playing on a weak team (TFC)...

Carts...

Gazza
12-03-2010, 11:04 AM
You guys are so short-sighted.

The master plan is to bring in Torsten Frings (obviously) and JDG will become some unnoticeable on the field that we vote him our MVP.

Seriously though, the only thing that can save JDG's career is a proper coach. And like someone else said previously, some proper wingers, that when JDG has his head up, he has someone to pick out.

trane
12-03-2010, 11:44 AM
I HATE when people say "he needs better players around him"...

Uhhhh - EVERYONE wants & needs better players around them...

EVEN GARCIA, yes Garcia, will look BETTER with better players around him...

IMO, we need to stop making excuses for a player that has been an epic fail and move on...

Put any professional on Real Madrid, in a DM role, and they will look fine most of the time - put that same player on TFC, and the weakness is EXPOSED...

JDG's play, ability, has been exposed while he has been playing on a weak team (TFC)...

Carts...

I for one never said it is about better players, it is about better team play. Which I think starts with proper coaching, and having players play to their full potential. Again this is a team game, and we have not been good as a team. No one player will fix that, or is to be blamed for that.

Roogsy
12-03-2010, 11:46 AM
I HATE when people say "he needs better players around him"...

Uhhhh - EVERYONE wants & needs better players around them...

EVEN GARCIA, yes Garcia, will look BETTER with better players around him...

IMO, we need to stop making excuses for a player that has been an epic fail and move on...

Put any professional on Real Madrid, in a DM role, and they will look fine most of the time - put that same player on TFC, and the weakness is EXPOSED...

JDG's play, ability, has been exposed while he has been playing on a weak team (TFC)...

Carts...


QFFT Carts! Preach on!

trane
12-03-2010, 11:51 AM
^ Yes, Roogsy, De Ro is the solution, JDG is the problem. So get rid of JDG and sing De Ro to a huge contract, and we will be a much better team and make the playoffs.

spot-on
12-03-2010, 03:03 PM
The TFC fan base, more than others it seems, is willing to throw players under the bus. The scape goat mentality has already been talked about here, but I'm curious as to why it seems so prevalent. Perhaps it's due to the team being new, and many people expecting instant results. 5 years guys. Yeah, Mo sucked...genuinely. And we likely should have made the playoffs the season before last. To blame it on a player that has shown world class talent and gone out of form lately? It's too easy.

Players go out of form. It happens. Sometimes it happens for a season or two. I see such short-sighted opinions around here that it's a bit concerning. And then those same people with those same opinions bitch about Cunningham, Buddle, and Casey going on to have a successful career. There's simply no patience whatsoever. I'm glad most of this board isn't in fund management. What a disaster that would be.

To those saying De Guzman was a terrible signing, well congratulations captain hindsight. I remember what this board was like when he was announced, and the majority were happy about it to say the least.

Technorgasm
12-03-2010, 04:31 PM
he just had ortho scopic surgery on his left knee.
its in a freezer cast for 2 weeks minimum, he wont be training for quite some time.

hopefulyl a healthy JDG will be a new man next year.

its all we can really hope for.

Mikey
12-05-2010, 10:11 AM
The TFC fan base, more than others it seems, is willing to throw players under the bus. The scape goat mentality has already been talked about here, but I'm curious as to why it seems so prevalent. Perhaps it's due to the team being new, and many people expecting instant results. 5 years guys. Yeah, Mo sucked...genuinely. And we likely should have made the playoffs the season before last. To blame it on a player that has shown world class talent and gone out of form lately? It's too easy.

Players go out of form. It happens. Sometimes it happens for a season or two. I see such short-sighted opinions around here that it's a bit concerning. And then those same people with those same opinions bitch about Cunningham, Buddle, and Casey going on to have a successful career. There's simply no patience whatsoever. I'm glad most of this board isn't in fund management. What a disaster that would be.

To those saying De Guzman was a terrible signing, well congratulations captain hindsight. I remember what this board was like when he was announced, and the majority were happy about it to say the least.


I think the point is that DeGuzman was supposed to be that "better player" for the other players around him. He's the one getting millions while the rest of them get tens of thousands. I haven't seen any of this world class talent from him that you speak of, not while has been wearing a TFC shirt.

A mistake was made, these things happen.

Alixir
12-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Jesus people, he's not that bad. A little perspective.


http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2639/pinkrosecoloredglasses.jpg

Alixir
12-05-2010, 11:55 AM
Again the peeps with the "he needs better players around him bullshit"...as a DP he should be making the players around him better. A rookie who is learning the game at a pro level needs players around him...not one of your so call "elite" DPs.
And even if he had better players around him it still doesn't change the fact that he spends 90% of the time passing to the wrong team.

SilverSamurai
12-05-2010, 12:32 PM
Again the peeps with the "he needs better players around him bullshit"...as a DP he should be making the players around him better. A rookie who is learning the game at a pro level needs players around him...not one of your so call "elite" DPs.
And even if he had better players around him it still doesn't change the fact that he spends 90% of the time passing to the wrong team.
I think a lot of that has to do w/ the lack of footie IQ on the team and in MLS in general.

Oldtimer
03-08-2011, 10:02 AM
I will also say that some of the best footy that we have seen from TFC has been in CONCAF when they were cliking, JDG was a big part of that, as was De Ro.


I will also have to say some of the fault must be put on Preky, I am the first to ask for defensive footy. But how do you play that without spending time on tactics. Part of tactics to me, is organizing exactly were players are going to be, were they will run too, exetera, that contributes greatly to efficient passing. Players can pass quickly without spending alot of time looking, Barca is a great example of this, and that is how they control the ball, that is also part of good defensive football, example last years Inter.

Winter agrees with you:



de Guzman, who is likely to play a key role for the Reds in 2011. After watching tapes of TFC games in the 2010, Winter says he has developed some ideas on how to get more out of his midfielder and said he expects a the former La Liga standout to bounce back this upcoming season.
“It was very difficult for him [last year],” Winter said. “Every time he was asking for the ball, all he was getting were these long balls.”
Obviously, at just 5-foot-6, de Guzman is not an ideal target man. Winter said the system he is implementing will be a much better fit for the Canadian international.
“In our system, he will be one of our key players,” Winter said. “He will get the ball at his feet and forward in attacking positions.”
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/de-guzman-likely-miss-torontos-opener

Technorgasm
03-08-2011, 10:11 AM
JDG desrves another chance.
plain and simple. (not that we have much choice about it)

I hope he makes all of his critics eat it by becomnig the engine in our midfield.
and the wall in front of the D.
I really. . reallly.. REALLY do.

Wull
03-08-2011, 10:28 AM
JDG desrves another chance.
plain and simple. (not that we have much choice about it)

I hope he makes all of his critics eat it by becomnig the engine in our midfield.
and the wall in front of the D.
I really. . reallly.. REALLY do.

I also hope I'll be eating humble pie by the end of the season

Brooker
03-08-2011, 10:49 AM
He hasn't exactly had much to play with. It reminds me of when Robert was here. A good player surrounded by a sea of shit. Hopefully JDG doesn't give up like Lauren did.


you're fucking certifiable

just had a Jaws flashback with that one.

Pachuco
03-08-2011, 11:28 AM
Winter agrees with you:


http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/de-guzman-likely-miss-torontos-opener

Ok, I have no idea where Winter gets the idea that De Guzman was a target man last year. I'm sorry, but he was a midfielder and alot of plays went through him last year. The problem is, alot of those plays died at him. Some blame it on the players around him, I blame it on his poor distribution and his inability to adapt to the level of players around him. He's better then he showed last year, that doesn't mean he's not to blame though.

I'm glad Winter has ideas on how to use him, I sure hope he plays better then he has in the past. I'll be the first to congratulate him if he does.

Oldtimer
03-08-2011, 02:29 PM
Ok, I have no idea where Winter gets the idea that De Guzman was a target man last year. I'm sorry, but he was a midfielder

By "target man" he means that the plays worked by players long-balling to him. Not that he was a "target man forward." Remember that Winter's English is basic, and he doesn't always get the implied point.

I watched enough games to know that was true. Not of the CBs, who often just left the ball and he had to pick it up, but the wingers would often long-cross it to him. It was ridiculous.

Pachuco
03-08-2011, 02:41 PM
By "target man" he means that the plays worked by players long-balling to him. Not that he was a "target man forward." Remember that Winter's English is basic, and he doesn't always get the implied point.

I watched enough games to know that was true. Not of the CBs, who often just left the ball and he had to pick it up, but the wingers would often long-cross it to him. It was ridiculous.

I disagree. I think it's a complete exageration and a desperate attempt at justiying why JDG hasn't been succesful with TFC. I've heard just about every excuse possible at this point for JDG (from the team themselves), at what point is JDG going to man up and say I need to step up my game and contribute more to this team?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-08-2011, 02:55 PM
i have a hardtime believing hes confused JDG with a target man in the traditional sense (ie striker), and that hes making excuses for him. i do sort of think hes using the term liberally as suggested by oldtimer above

Pachuco
03-08-2011, 03:02 PM
i have a hardtime believing hes confused JDG with a target man in the traditional sense (ie striker), and that hes making excuses for him. i do sort of think hes using the term liberally as suggested by oldtimer above

I don't believe it either. That wasn't the gist of my point. I was saying it sarcastically as much as Winter was.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-08-2011, 03:02 PM
sorry, innernets makes it hard to detected the sarcasm

P-NUTZ
03-08-2011, 03:57 PM
JDG better get real healthy and get his shit together. he's been a bum, regardless of whether the team has sucked more often than not. but the fact IMO remains that many played better than him and didn't reap the excuse he luckily inherits every time this comes up :

"...he needs better players/coach/tactics around him".

so do i when i play. shut up and earn your money JDG.

Jeff s
03-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Theres nothing wrong with DeGuz.

Last season, we played a defensive game, hard to score when the team is defending 90 mins.

Even harder for DeGuz when he has forwards with terrible positioning. The strikers never seem to pull back to support, on top of that, hes with LaBrocca, who is fucking terrible.

Play an offensive game on the ground, and we will start to see the real DeGuz, thats all.

rocker
03-08-2011, 04:54 PM
well, here's his chance to prove the doubters.

he hasn't proven anything yet in his TFC career except that he's massively overpaid.

Stryker
03-08-2011, 05:03 PM
Alot of people on here looking forward to JDG shutting up his critics this season.
Im expecting him to wash out and the people wearing blinders because of his international past to finally admit what a bust he's been.

Oldtimer
03-08-2011, 06:39 PM
^ and you just might need to eat those words.

We'll see. I've seen great players play terribly in the past, just because of the wrong situation. Everything I know about de Guzman (apart from his time under Preki, and a tiny bit injured under Cummins) suggests that he's a great player.

Why even Robert showed a flash of greatness, but then showed that he didn't care less to play for our crap team.