Rogers to buy MLSE Sports Operations?

[TFCRegina]

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/822783

PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE

[Mojo]

You kidding me? They'll budget cut more than MLSE does already.

[dclaro]

rogers said they'll spend money on the jays and be willing to take losses, I wouldn't mind Rogers taking over. Not like they can do much worse on the ice/court/field.

i wonder if peddie's retirement is related to this

[NBS]

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/822783

PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE

The thing is, Toronto FC moves down another slot in the pecking order given that Rogers owns the Blue Jays.

It's tough to know what the implications will be for TFC unless it happens and we actually see it play out. Very little precedent for this type of thing, especially in a larger market. As a Jays fan myself, I'm less than enamored with Rogers to this point, but time will tell I suppose.

I expect some TFC games will likely be played at Rogers Centre now (maybe large international friendlies, or special one off games like Toronto/Montreal for the first time in Toronto once they join MLS).

[Stryker]

I mean really, can they do any worse?

[greatwhitenorf]

Wow. Cash of Titans.

That's an interesting story. Top Torstar biz writers names on it, so it has traction.

May well be sparked by Rogers impending sense that the Blue Jays probably aren't going to grow significantly in years to come, hence the pre-emptive buy out of MLSE. Even bagging a maxed-out Leafs team would represent new business growth for Rogers.

The other foot to fall in this scenario would be the acquisition of(Chris Berman voice) A National (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) Football (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) League (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) franchise by Rogers. And the building of a new Dallas Death Star-type stadium to house it. Oooh. That's where we'll see TFC play Barca someday.

Or Spurs.

In the meantime, might also get to see the Leafs playing their Winter Classic at Skydome with the roof open.

And the Argos? As Mott The Pringle might have sung:

It's a mighty long way down the dusty trail
and the sun burns hot on the cold steel rail
and I look like a bum
and I crawl like a snail
(da-da dadadadadadadada)
All the way to Moncton

Wow. We'll need a Steinbrenner to run this show.

[Damien]

Does this mean Tom "dumbass" Anselmi will be gone too?

[Damien]

Oh and please let us hope TFC doesnt end up playing on a pointy ball shared surface!

[NBS]

Wow. Cash of Titans.

The other foot to fall in this scenario would be the acquisition of(Chris Berman voice) A National (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) Football (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) League (dah-dah-dah-dunnhh!) franchise by Rogers.



Doesn't NFL rules prohibit corporate ownership of teams?

[greatwhitenorf]

NFL rules do prohibit corporate ownership. Rogers will just stick some puppet in there to do their bidding.

I nominate Jim Lang. On the payroll, not doing anything important.

[Azerban]

rogers field does not have that bad a ring

[greatwhitenorf]

Sportsnet Skydome.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

I wonder if they'll look to divest themselves of TFC if the deal goes through?

[Hooligan69]

Damn! This news certainly has certainly caught me by surprise. Never thought we'd see the day.

[Mikey]

I doubt this would change any of the losers running TFC at day to day management level.

[razor787]

Where the hell did that come from? That sounds like it would be great, but I have one huge problem from the top of my head.

It said it wouldn't buy property.

That would include projects in the planning stages. Like the soccer training center. That will probally get put on hold until MLSE is either sold, or they reject a deal. Even if Rogers did buy it, let's say in a year or two, when the center is finished. If they dont buy the buildings, then the academy will take a nosedive.

If the jays were a winning team, I would say sure. But I prefer the devil I know, to the devil I don't.

[Kooper]

I don't think it is a good idea that one company owns all but one of the sports franchises in the city.

Better the devil you do know than the devil you don't.

[Mikey]

If the idea is to find a way to leverage more money from the Leafs than MLSE currently can, moving the Jays out to somewhere new ( smaller ) then refurbisihing the dome into a "new" 60,000 seat home for the leafs and national hockey team would make more sense.

[Ageroo]

I heard this on the FAN590 this morning...interesting bit of news and I am sure all the media outlets will pick this up today.....I can't wait to see how this plays out.

[TOBOR !]

It's a mighty long way down the dusty trail
and the sun burns hot on the cold steel rail
and I look like a bum
and I crawl like a snail
(da-da dadadadadadadada)
All the way to Moncton


Mott the Hoople

[TOBOR !]

I heard this on the FAN590 this morning...interesting bit of news and I am sure all the media outlets will pick this up today.....I can't wait to see how this plays out.

This is all over everywhere right now. Talk of a media monopoly with the eventual acquisition of HNIC - lumping Leafs, Raptors, TFC all onto one channel and charging whatever they want for it because they can.

Poor, poor TSN... we hardly knew ye.

[phonzo]

this has nothing to do with Peddie retiring...also 1.3 billion is the number I've heard is the what teachers pension would expect and sell at or around.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

och i fucking hope not, i cant think of a worse ownership

[Still Kicking]

I'm scratching my head on this one.
Hard to imagine that this corporate giant will get us footy fans. They are a baseball bunch, will they cater to the tourists that buy tickets to Jays games? Will their desire for a NFL franchise dominate all other considerations? Will they have the "touch" when it comes to Toronto FC? Is the best scenario be that they buy all the teams and then sell off the ones that don't play on ice?

[scut farkus]

Big front page spread in The Star today. $1.3B bid for the Teachers' Pension Plan's 66% stake.

[Oldtimer]

och i fucking hope not, i cant think of a worse ownership

Exactly.

ML$E replaces a faceless pension fund with a faceless cable and wireless giant.

Rogers doesn't give a crap about winning. The Jays have gone no-where under their ownership. All they want is "content" to fill their cable channels.

Since Jays viewership is down, adding ML$E's properties gives them material to place on their stations. Nothing more.

If you think it was bad under the Teachers' ownership, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Mark in Ottawa]

So... this would make the Argo's the "bastard child" so to speak on the Toronto Professional sports scene?

[Beach_Red]

The teachers have been selling off other assets lately, so they're likely going to sell to someone - if not Rogers, then who? Is there anyone else in this market interested in owning pro sports teams?

[tictoc]

My main worry is where TFC eventually ends up on their list of priorities. With a buy of this size I suspect that it will be status quo for a while meaning, whatever is supposed to be going on with Klinsmann and finding the style of this team will continue. But eventually Rogers will turn their collective attention to 'that soccer team', and who knows what comes next.

[ensco]

That is a big number. Videotron bid huge for the Habs last year ($550 million) and lost. The final price for the Habs was $575 million, about 50% more than the $350-400 million Gillett had originally expected to get. Rogers is trying to knock out any other bidders. It's not likely in this case, because of the bigger amounts, that anyone can pull together a syndicate to compete with a phone company, the way the Molsons did. But it's not a knockout bid, yet. If someone comes in with a partner to take the real estate, that would be the vastly preferred option. Keeping ACC doesn't make sense for MLSE.

Why Rogers? Sports team content will become a "magic app" on mobile devices, i.e. something only you can offer that competitors can't compete with. Expect to see Bell jump into this before it's over.

Why now? Rogers execs must be really getting worried that the some or all of the new entrants will really impact (ie lower) mobile pricing.

Calling Jim Balsillie. Anybody there?

[Nuvinho]

Just my opinion, but if I was buying MLSE. I would start to trim the fat, the ventures that are in the red or going to be in the red. I wouldn't be suprised if Rogers sees the Raptors as a drain on cash going forward. I bet when they look closely, they will see TFC up there on a % profit basis.

[Nuvinho]

Videotron bid huge for the Habs last year ($550 million) and lost. The final price for the Habs was $575 million, about 50% more than the $350-400 million Gillett had originally expected to get.

Reason: Sports team content will become a "magic app" on mobile devices, i.e. something only you can offer that competitors can't compete with.

Expect to see Bell jump into this before it's over.

Calling Jim Balsillie. Anybody there?

I think Bell will make a bid...and if good ol' Jimmy does, look out, Bettman will have a heart attack.

[Cashcleaner]

In all honesty, this probably would work out in TFC's favour. The Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund is exactly what it sounds like - it's a coalition of long-term investors who don't really care how they get their money. Again, as my friend in the business always points out, unless they have been specifically asked otherwise, the people running the day-to-day operations of their companies are legally obligated to give them (the investors) the best return possible on their money.

Rogers, on the other hand, operates in a different capacity and can make more important business decisions at their own discretion. I believe that out of the two choices, Rogers would allow improvements to be made at the club that may not necessarily be profitable (at least in the short term).

[maninb]

All's I care about is that TFC eventually gets sold to an owner who cares about FOOTBALL FIRST, no other distractions, and making large profits isn't an issue...Hell if Beckham still wants a MLS team, I'd take him in a second....

[Cashcleaner]

^ Like...say....oh I dunno. The fans?

Wishful thinking, but could you imagine that shit going down?

[Beach_Red]

That is a big number. Videotron bid huge for the Habs last year ($550 million) and lost. The final price for the Habs was $575 million, about 50% more than the $350-400 million Gillett had originally expected to get. Rogers is trying to knock out any other bidders. It's not likely in this case, because of the bigger amounts, that anyone can pull together a syndicate to compete with a phone company, the way the Molsons did. But it's not a knockout bid, yet. If someone comes in with a partner to take the real estate, that would be the vastly preferred option. Keeping ACC doesn't make sense for MLSE.

Why Rogers? Sports team content will become a "magic app" on mobile devices, i.e. something only you can offer that competitors can't compete with. Expect to see Bell jump into this before it's over.

Why now? Rogers execs must be really getting worried that the some or all of the new entrants will really impact (ie lower) mobile pricing.

Calling Jim Balsillie. Anybody there?

Didn't Bell just buy CTV - did that include TSN?

This could be fun to watch!

[stugautz]

Out of the 4 major pro teams in Toronto (TFC, Leafs, Raptors and Jays) which team has the best chance of making the playoffs the next few years? The Jays have one of the best young pitching staffs around and big bats. The leafs are still a few years away, and the Raptors haven't proven to be able to do it yet.

The Jays have also shown they can spend the money. The money may not always be spent wisely (Brunnett, Ryan, Thomas) or pan out as good as they though it might (Rios, Wells), but they're not afraid.

Given a choice between MLS$ and Rogers, I'll take Rogers.

Unless somebody else is going to step up. (Would love Jim Balsille, but don't see it happening).

[Cowboy905]

Exactly.

ML$E replaces a faceless pension fund with a faceless cable and wireless giant.

Rogers doesn't give a crap about winning. The Jays have gone no-where under their ownership. All they want is "content" to fill their cable channels.

Since Jays viewership is down, adding ML$E's properties gives them material to place on their stations. Nothing more.

If you think it was bad under the Teachers' ownership, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

you're thinking of MLSE. Rogers has come out and said they're willing to take losses to field a winning team (re: The Jays). The Blue Jays have just hired the most indepth, detailed, and powerful scouts in all of MLB. After last season, season ticket sales are up. Out of all Toronto teams, they look the most promising.

if you look at records last year, the Jays were better than the leafs, the raps, and TFC.

[woolly]

...

Calling Jim Balsillie. Anybody there?

Funny, this was the first thing I thought of as well.

[ensco]

Funny side note: Peddie is very obviously a (the?) source for that story. The press release yesterday must have been done to publicly kneecap him so that potential bidders would know not to deal with him going forward. The fear that an owner in this situation could have is that the CEO will care more about negotiating side deals for himself with potential bidders, and less about getting the best deal for the owners.

It's a very public sign they don't trust him. Peddie must be madder than hell.

[TFCRegina]

Exactly.

ML$E replaces a faceless pension fund with a faceless cable and wireless giant.

Rogers doesn't give a crap about winning. The Jays have gone no-where under their ownership. All they want is "content" to fill their cable channels.

Since Jays viewership is down, adding ML$E's properties gives them material to place on their stations. Nothing more.

If you think it was bad under the Teachers' ownership, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

The Jays winning two titles and making playoffs was an anomaly. Get over it. Boston and New York were meant to dominate that division and that's never going to change. For the Jays to compete they would have had to spend at least twice what they currently do, and that'd be to just be on comparable footing with Boston.

[Alixir]

Teachers are money hungry...Rogers is worse.
If Rogers does buy the Majority stake it will gaurantee one thing....more Dobson and Forrest. Thats grounds enough for us to panic!!!!!!!!!

[Oldtimer]

Funny side note: Peddie is very obviously a (the?) source for that story. The press release yesterday must have been done to publicly kneecap him so that potential bidders would know not to deal with him going forward. The fear that an owner in this situation could have is that the CEO will care more about negotiating side deals for himself with potential bidders, and less about getting the best deal for the owners.

It's a very public sign they don't trust him. Peddie must be madder than hell.

Agreed.

Those who said there is no link to the "retirement" announcement have got to be kidding.

You seem to have an uncanny knack of reading ML$E's politics.

[TFCRegina]

Teachers are money hungry...Rogers is worse.
If Rogers does buy the Majority stake it will gaurantee one thing....more Dobson and Forrest. Thats grounds enough for us to panic!!!!!!!!!

More dobson is probably the scariest thing I've heard so far.

[rocker]

you're thinking of MLSE. Rogers has come out and said they're willing to take losses to field a winning team (re: The Jays). The Blue Jays have just hired the most indepth, detailed, and powerful scouts in all of MLB. After last season, season ticket sales are up. Out of all Toronto teams, they look the most promising.

if you look at records last year, the Jays were better than the leafs, the raps, and TFC.

But this comes after years of mismanagement. They let JP Ricciardi rule for 7 years.... they play in a league with no hard cap and yet still spend relatively little compared to the other teams in the East division.

The thing is, they get very good ratings for the Jays, but until their recent words this hasn't translated into more funding for the team.

I was a big Jays fan as a youth, until about 2000, and then they lost me.

Paul Beeston also isn't one to lower ticket prices. I remember him being asked about the low attendances at Jays games, and why they don't lower ticket prices to bring back fans -- he said that "devalues the product."

Let's also not forget Rogers screwed over older fans by putting lots of games on a channel few could get.

The people clamouring for a single rich owner man for TFC are probably going to be disappointed with more of the same from Rogers.

[JonO]

Why now? Rogers execs must be really getting worried that the some or all of the new entrants will really impact (ie lower) mobile pricing.
Add to that the fact that more and more people are watching tv on the internet rather than buying cable...

[ensco]

Add to that the fact that more and more people are watching tv on the internet rather than buying cable...

It just hit me. Rogers is doing this now because Bell will have trouble responding right now.

Bell have an agreement to acquire 100% of CTV/TSN, but it hasn't closed (the other shareholders of CTV that they're buying out include Torstar and.....Teachers!). So Bell would have to buy MLSE alone and then roll it into CTV after that deal closes.

But ESPN remains a 20% shareholder in TSN, so it's totally awkward/messy for Bell to deal with. What happens to any deal that Bell strikes with ESPN if the CRTC doesn't approve the CTVglobemedia deal? Bell would then have spent over a billion dollars to buy something without the ability to utilize it properly

So what this means is, there will be no deal quickly. The leak must have come from Peddie, because it's not in MLSE's interest to have this out there. The MLSE board will want to string this along and wait for the CTV deal to close, unless Rogers blows their doors off, which means taking on the arenas and upping the price.

This story is all about Peddie giving the finger to the MLSE Board!

[ManUtd4ever]

Out of the 4 major pro teams in Toronto (TFC, Leafs, Raptors and Jays) which team has the best chance of making the playoffs the next few years? The Jays have one of the best young pitching staffs around and big bats. The leafs are still a few years away, and the Raptors haven't proven to be able to do it yet.

The Jays have also shown they can spend the money. The money may not always be spent wisely (Brunnett, Ryan, Thomas) or pan out as good as they though it might (Rios, Wells), but they're not afraid.

Given a choice between MLS$ and Rogers, I'll take Rogers.

Unless somebody else is going to step up. (Would love Jim Balsille, but don't see it happening).



you're thinking of MLSE. Rogers has come out and said they're willing to take losses to field a winning team (re: The Jays). The Blue Jays have just hired the most indepth, detailed, and powerful scouts in all of MLB. After last season, season ticket sales are up. Out of all Toronto teams, they look the most promising.

if you look at records last year, the Jays were better than the leafs, the raps, and TFC.

My sentiments exactly. Rogers has demonstrated an absolute commitment to building a winning club in this city despite dismal attendance figures and limited revenue.

Moreover, I realize that the Jays are a different animal in terms of supply and demand, but I believe Rogers would be far more prudent in terms of their marketing schemes for all of their sports properties if this speculation comes to fruition. I don't believe Rogers would gouge and abuse sports fans in this city from a financial perspective.

MLSE has demonstrated a willingness to spend over the years, but at what cost? Let's not forget that MLSE ownership of our beloved sports franchises has been nothing short of an unmitigated disaster in which supporters of the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC have endured years of futility in exchange for the most expensive ticket pricing structure in their respective leagues.

[Beach_Red]

It just hit me. Rogers is doing this now because Bell will have trouble responding right now.

Bell have an agreement to acquire 100% of CTV/TSN, but it hasn't closed (the other shareholders of CTV that they're buying out include Torstar and.....Teachers!). So they'd have to buy MLSE alone and then roll it into CTV after that deal closes.

But ESPN remains a 20% shareholder in TSN, so it's totally awkward/messy for Bell to deal with. What happens to any deal they sike with ESPN if the CRTC doesn't approve the CTVglobemedia deal? They'd own MLSE without the abilityy to utilize it properly

So what this means is, there will be no deal quickly. The leak must have come from Peddie, because it's not in MLSE's interest to have this out there. The MLSE board will want to string this along and wait for the CTV deal to close, unless Rogers blows their doors off, which means taking on the arenas and upping the price.


Did it just hit you because I mentioned it a few posts up :D.

The deal may not have closed, but Bell have already started taking over CTV - Ivan Fecan is out and the new guy from Bell is coming early in the new year (that's why I'm out of work, CTV is pretty much entirely on hold right now so no season two of The Bridge).

At the time the claim was the Teachers initiated the deal with Bell. Do they have a plan? It seems lik they're getting out of all media and ticket sales businsses (they're keeping the real estate in this deal, right?).

[phonzo]

not watching cable tv as often maybe true with respect to the form of media that's on. Live sports is live sports...you don't watch a game 4 hours (ok some people do) after it's done.

In addition Rogers proved this year that you don't need cable tv to get people to watch live sports. The world cup stream is a perfect example; I probably watched the internet feed more then at home.

[ensco]

Did it just hit you because I mentioned it a few posts up :D.

The deal may not have closed, but Bell have already started taking over CTV - Ivan Fecan is out and the new guy from Bell is coming early in the new year (that's why I'm out of work, CTV is pretty much entirely on hold right now so no season two of The Bridge).

At the time the claim was the Teachers initiated the deal with Bell. Do they have a plan? It seems lik they're getting out of all media and ticket sales businsses (they're keeping the real estate in this deal, right?).

Yes but only sort of. What I mean is, this newspaper story, what it really is, is really Peddie giving the finger to the Board. That's what is actually going on. MLSE wouldn't want to negotiate today. They want to wait for Bell to have a proper auction.

Peddie really is a prize. What a guy.

[Flashman]

As Mott The Pringle might have sung:

It's a mighty long way down the dusty trail
and the sun burns hot on the cold steel rail
and I look like a bum
and I crawl like a snail
(da-da dadadadadadadada)
All the way to Moncton


+1 for the Mott the Hoople reference. :drum:

And Rogers sure beats working for the teachers...

Marionette - I ain't one yet
Teacher's pet - Well you'd better forget it
Marionette - I ain't one yet
Teacher's pet - Go check your stocks and shares:D

[JonO]

not watching cable tv as often maybe true with respect to the form of media that's on. Live sports is live sports...you don't watch a game 4 hours (ok some people do) after it's done.

In addition Rogers proved this year that you don't need cable tv to get people to watch live sports. The world cup stream is a perfect example; I probably watched the internet feed more then at home.
You're proving my point... people are moving away from traditional cable and downloading tv shows - which is taking a significant stream of revenue away from rogers. But, like you say, live sport is live sports. If they can offer and exclusive, then people will sign up (be it traditional cable or via internet)

[DangerRed]

Eh - slice it whatever way you want, the Star article calls it properly: if this deal is true, Rogers is really buying the Leafs, plus some other shit (ie Marlies + TFC). This deal isn't about our beloved little football club as we're a pipsqueak on the MLSE P&L statement.

This'll just be another large corporation owning the team. I wonder what this'll mean for Paul B. and the rest of the FO, again, if true.

[Beach_Red]

Yes but only sort of. What I mean is, this newspaper story, what it really is, is really Peddie giving the finger to the Board. That's what is actually going on. MLSE wouldn't want to negotiate today. They want to wait for Bell to have a proper auction.

Peddie really is a prize. What a guy.


Yeah, but he's the man with the "vision." :rolleyes:

[Oldtimer]

Yes but only sort of. What I mean is, this newspaper story, what it really is, is really Peddie giving the finger to the Board. That's what is actually going on. MLSE wouldn't want to negotiate today. They want to wait for Bell to have a proper auction.

Peddie really is a prize. What a guy.

again... you seem to have nailed it exactly. This is the best explanation.

[phonzo]

ya but in the end the transaction is between Rogers and OTPP...it's their shares they'd be buying. Obviously having the support of MLSE board is useful but not necessary. Rogers would just walk into the board room swinging a massive stick around.

[Beach_Red]

Eh - slice it whatever way you want, the Star article calls it properly: if this deal is true, Rogers is really buying the Leafs, plus some other shit (ie Marlies + TFC). This deal isn't about our beloved little football club as we're a pipsqueak on the MLSE P&L statement.

This'll just be another large corporation owning the team. I wonder what this'll mean for Paul B. and the rest of the FO, again, if true.


Depends on who takes over. Sure, TFC is way down the list of priorities, but tis is really about content - TV, online, however its accessed, Rogers needs exclusive content and as people have said, live sports is one of the best and in the future soccer could be much bigger than it is now.

With any luck, Rogers will want more live dates - playoff games - more than the old regime did.

[Parkdale]

so MLSE as a company would still exist, it just wouldn't be owned (in part) by the Teacher's Pension anymore?

is that what's on the table?

[Parkdale]

With any luck, Rogers will want more live dates - playoff games - more than the old regime did.


yep. Rogers bought the Jays so that they could have content to fill their sports networks. I would imagine that also getting LeafsTV, RaptorsTV and GolTV is a big part of why they are interested.

Shaw just bought Global, so I can see Rogers deciding to buy up as much sports content as possible.

The TV / Cable wars are getting bigger every day.

[billyfly]

Damn! This news certainly has certainly caught me by surprise. Never thought we'd see the day.

Rogers putting in a bid to buy MLSE has always been an inevitability.

The announcement has caught me off-guard thought b/c of Nadir's west coast leanings (He is from BC) and teh naming of the Canucks arena.

[SilverSamurai]

Eh - slice it whatever way you want, the Star article calls it properly: if this deal is true, Rogers is really buying the Leafs, plus some other shit (ie Marlies + TFC). This deal isn't about our beloved little football club as we're a pipsqueak on the MLSE P&L statement.

This'll just be another large corporation owning the team. I wonder what this'll mean for Paul B. and the rest of the FO, again, if true.
That's exactly what I'm thinking.
I highly doubt Rogers would come in and clean house if they buy MLSE. It doesn't make ANY sense. So ya... it could happen. lol

And coming soon to pro-sports: system access fees! :facepalm::rolleyes:

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

^^^^ yes, MLSE is its own operating entity. they were previously partially owned between kilmer capital (tanenbaum's private equity holding co), OTPP (still), and TD asset management, to name a few.

MLSE, from what my guess is, and its a largely assumed guess, is a LLC meaning partition of assets and liabilities and the like. it would still be its own vehicle.

[billyfly]

Rogers is also what is known as a "partnership"

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

Rogers putting in a bid to buy MLSE has always been an inevitability.

The announcement has caught me off-guard thought b/c of Nadir's west coast leanings (He is from BC) and teh naming of the Canucks arena.

a good asset is a good asset, regardless of geography....which, youre right about, that he's feverishly trying to get the grapple on the left coast market he has here.

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

Rogers is also what is known as a "partnership"

yeah, certain operating subs, but the parent holdco is incorporated.

i do agree that rogers owning it is probably a step in a better direction.

[Tim]

someone else may have already mentioned it and I missed it, but Tannenbaum does hold right of first refusal on any sale of shares in MLSE. It is conceivable that he is in bed with Rogers already, or he could snap up those shares if Teachers wants out. OR maybe Rogers takes Teachers and his shares... who knows.

If this goes through this couldn't possibly leave TFC or any other sports properties worse off then they already are. I bet the jays would get more cash cause hockey ops would be funding that money pit.

[billyfly]

The Cons to this deal are that Rogers is a consumer services company.

OTPP is a faceless org that no one can really protest against (unless you kick a teacher in the shins).

Owning the Leafs (a symbol of Toronto) has it's pitfalls since the Leafs come with some hate baggage.

Vic will agree with me, Western Canadians especially don't dig on the Centre of the Universe.

[billyfly]

Sam Kasten being in town might be more to the eye than first thought.

[phonzo]

Larry won't veto it..doubtful he has nothing to lose and more to gain.

Think about it...Rogers would be willing to invest in players and Larry wouldn't have to. Winning teams sell eyeballs more then losing ones. Winning teams also result in playoffs and playoff premium prices = win for investors. No reason for Larry to oppose it.

As for someones earlier Jay's comment..give them time the Jays are moving in the right direction (at least in my opinion).

[phonzo]

oh and kneel (yes that's how I spell it cause he is cooler then the regular spelling) nailed MLSE structure. It remains - they have assets and investments beyond sports franchises that I don't think Rogers has as much interest in *cough* Maple Leaf Square *cough*.

[Beach_Red]

The Cons to this deal are that Rogers is a consumer services company.

OTPP is a faceless org that no one can really protest against (unless you kick a teacher in the shins).

Owning the Leafs (a symbol of Toronto) has it's pitfalls since the Leafs come with some hate baggage.

Vic will agree with me, Western Canadians especially don't dig on the Centre of the Universe.


Yeah, but hate can drive sales as much as love. People always talk about the importance of a sports team having a rival, well, if the Leafs really were a powerhouse the ratings for games against the other Canadian teams would go way up as even more people would tune in hoping to see the Leafs lose (no matter how well their own team is doing).

[boban]

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/822783

PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE

rogers said they'll spend money on the jays and be willing to take losses, I wouldn't mind Rogers taking over. Not like they can do much worse on the ice/court/field.

i wonder if peddie's retirement is related to this
Not sure if I would be in favour of this. On the surface it may sound ok - getting rid of the TPP, but then we have a totally monopoly of the Toronto sports scene.
Many are complaining now, especially as how they price things, wait till this comes to fruition. We haven't seen nothing yet.

[Tim]

If this partnership happens I see big things for the Jays in the future. Hopefully going back to the glory day 90's because they'll have the financial muscle to do so. But i'd hope for more accountability for on field performances of all the other properties

[DangerRed]

^What? You realize that Rogers already owns the Jays, right?

[Roogsy]

There is always a chance that they'd sell off assets they are not interested in (TFC, condos) in order to retain assets they want (Leafs, ACC).

[Whoop]

a good asset is a good asset, regardless of geography....which, youre right about, that he's feverishly trying to get the grapple on the left coast market he has here.

Exactly.

[Oldtimer]

so MLSE as a company would still exist, it just wouldn't be owned (in part) by the Teacher's Pension anymore?

is that what's on the table?

Yep.

The other shareholders remain the same, too.

[Wagner]

There is always a chance that they'd sell off assets they are not interested in (TFC, condos) in order to retain assets they want (Leafs, ACC).

how do we go about raising funds to buy the Team??...
like how the community owns the Sask Roughriders... (the only profitable CFL team)

[billyfly]

The bid is for real. If it goes through and how it will look in the end is another story.

[bgnewf]

Evil Corporate Overseers!

http://tinyurl.com/3yynl6s

The Toronto Star is reporting that Rogers Communications might buy MLSE and Toronto FC. What this might mean for The Reds. Comments are always welcome.

[Whoop]

Stan Kasten, not Sam.

And I don't think he has anything to do with it.

[CretanBull]

There is always a chance that they'd sell off assets they are not interested in (TFC, condos) in order to retain assets they want (Leafs, ACC).

Not relivant to your point but worth pointing out, the (apparent) $1.3 billion price tag doesn't include their realestate holdings.

[Roogsy]

how do we go about raising funds to buy the Team??...
like how the community owns the Sask Roughriders... (the only profitable CFL team)


I would cash in savings and borrow money to buy a piece of this team. The problem? I think whoever the owner is (Rogers/MLSE), they will ask far too much. What started out as a $10million investment will probably demand upwards near $50million.

[Roogsy]

Not relivant to your point but worth pointing out, the (apparent) $1.3 billion price tag doesn't include their realestate holdings.

Really? Wow. I never bothered to look at their Balance Sheet. MLSE generates negative feelings in me so I avoid them as much as possible. :D

[phonzo]

why does everyone make it seem Rogers buying it is worse then OTPP (who as people have stated in this thread clearly care about the bottom line).

Rogers also cares for the bottom line but their bottom line will be impacted by the performance of the team. The better they do the more money they make all around.

Seems like a win win for me.

[billyfly]

Stan Kasten, not Sam.

And I don't think he has anything to do with it.

Its Stan you're right. I don't think so either but I am uber curious what he was doing in town with all his meetings.

[boban]

There is always a chance that they'd sell off assets they are not interested in (TFC, condos) in order to retain assets they want (Leafs, ACC).
They are not buying the real estate. Besides the condos are already sold.

[billyfly]

The thing with the condos and their real estate success is, how much do MLSE sell b/c of the TML brand.

Not sure.

[boban]

Not relivant to your point but worth pointing out, the (apparent) $1.3 billion price tag doesn't include their realestate holdings.
I read that too, but its not clear if that includes the arena or not.
It seems silly not to own a stake of the building that drives your revenue.

[billyfly]

Rogers and MLSE would be HUMONGOUS

Humungus will not be defied!
Quiet! Quiet! No more games!
No more games!
We're here for a purpose.
We come with an offer.


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:2vfrw4ScHbSpHM:http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/indishd/humongous.jpg&t=1

[Whoop]

why does everyone make it seem Rogers buying it is worse then OTPP (who as people have stated in this thread clearly care about the bottom line).

Rogers also cares for the bottom line but their bottom line will be impacted by the performance of the team. The better they do the more money they make all around.

Seems like a win win for me.

Not necessarily.

As long as they fill their content they'll be happy.

You want egos involved.

[Darlofletch]

I'm sure someone else will have already pointed this out, but more tfc games on sportsnet=more gerry and craig!

that's the biggest con to the deal right there.

[Redcoe15]

why does everyone make it seem Rogers buying it is worse then OTPP (who as people have stated in this thread clearly care about the bottom line).

Rogers also cares for the bottom line but their bottom line will be impacted by the performance of the team. The better they do the more money they make all around.

Seems like a win win for me.
Like in the number of playoff appearances the Jays have made since Rogers bought the club 10 years ago, which is zero. Or that runaway success that is the Buffalo Bills playing home games at the Skydome? :rolleyes:

Bottom line, this is just one sports clueless corporate entity selling to another sports clueless corporate entity.

THIS.

CAN'T.

BE.

GOOD!!! :mad:

[Parkdale]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:2vfrw4ScHbSpHM:http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/indishd/humongous.jpg&t=1


I heard that Rogers was buying all the oil, and told the teachers 'just leave'

[maninb]

The Jays winning two titles and making playoffs was an anomaly. Get over it. Boston and New York were meant to dominate that division and that's never going to change. For the Jays to compete they would have had to spend at least twice what they currently do, and that'd be to just be on comparable footing with Boston.

Really??? Then do tell us how Tampa Bay has been doing it the past several years with a payroll smaller than the Jays....

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Like in the number of playoff appearances the Jays have made since Rogers bought the club 10 years ago, which is zero. Or that runaway success that is the Buffalo Bills playing home games at the Skydome? :rolleyes:

Bottom line, this is just one sports clueless corporate entity selling to another sports clueless corporate entity.

THIS.

CAN'T.

BE.

GOOD!!! :mad:

yep, what im sayin

[Macksam]

I'm sure someone else will have already pointed this out, but more tfc games on sportsnet=more gerry and craig!

that's the biggest con to the deal right there.
Craig is good, Gerry on the on the other hand...

If it's on Sportnet instead of Gol TV, I'm fine.

[billyfly]

I heard that Rogers was buying all the oil, and told the teachers 'just leave'


Just walk away

[boban]

Well at least if Barca comes here, TFC would be playing in SkyDome and hopefully we wouldn't be raped over prices.
This goes along with winter Concacaf games being played in SkyDome and the like.

[phonzo]

umm really you expected the jays to get turned around in 10 years?...fuck people have ridiculous expectations for MLB as they were spoiled by the early back to back world series. When did the jays win a world series prior to that...oh wait.

As for the buffalo bills do they own the team? No. So your making the connection that bringing the bills to Toronto should mean that Rogers somehow makes sure they win when the bills have sucked longer before that agreement was reached..

wow.

[phonzo]

Not necessarily.

As long as they fill their content they'll be happy.

You want egos involved.

I agree Whoop but content that people want to watch is more valuable then just a timeslot filled.

[phonzo]

Now even arguing you replace one faceless organization with another what is the impact? Like honestly this is first and foremost a business move and a smart one. I for one welcome MLSE's new supreme rogers overlords even though God knows my bill will go up more. At least they might offer me free tickets for being a rogers customer! :p

[billyfly]

HOT HOT rumour at Rogers. They are buying MLG from Loblaws and Ryerson and refurbishing it for Leaf and Raps games.

The Gardens is reborn!

[phonzo]

now to stir the pot do you think Rogers will give Dero DP money!?

[DichioTFC]

I, for one, welcome our slightly-more competent corporate overlords... <--- didn't see phonzo *just* write that...

Seriously though, Rogers would be a welcome change to MLSE. Its nothing but bad press and poor management decisions led by a cast of shady characters. Rogers will invest much more than the Teachers ever would.

[Ageroo]

now to stir the pot do you think Rogers will give Dero DP money!?

Not only that...but they will have phonzo money as well.....:D

[Cowboy905]

yep. Rogers bought the Jays so that they could have content to fill their sports networks. I would imagine that also getting LeafsTV, RaptorsTV and GolTV is a big part of why they are interested.

Shaw just bought Global, so I can see Rogers deciding to buy up as much sports content as possible.

The TV / Cable wars are getting bigger every day.

exactly. the Cable wars are HUGE. Shaw Communications buying the former Canwest made them the single largest Cable company in Canada. I bet Rogers didn't like that. Brad Shaw has also mentioned that he's looking at possibly starting or acquiring a Cable Sports Network.

Bell bought CTVMedia and pulled CTV Ondemand away from Rogers. It's now Exclusive if you have Bell FibeTV or satellite.

Shaw has mentioned that they will not limit content distribution to their competitors because it's a nasty road to go down.

If you look at all this, it's pretty glaring to see Telus is the only Communications company that doesn't own content. I'm willing to bet they'll be the next to go.

All this is is a giant battle between the Cable companies....think of the Cold War where the US and Russia had an arms race, except they are arming with Content, not guns.

[billyfly]

^ I agree with this thought that the "cable wars" factor into this decision.

[boban]

Evil Corporate Overseers!

http://tinyurl.com/3yynl6s

The Toronto Star is reporting that Rogers Communications might buy MLSE and Toronto FC. What this might mean for The Reds. Comments are always welcome.
Where do they spend on TFC? They cheap out on every aspect with them.

[Chewy Unikronik]

Just my opinion, but if I was buying MLSE. I would start to trim the fat, the ventures that are in the red or going to be in the red. I wouldn't be suprised if Rogers sees the Raptors as a drain on cash going forward. I bet when they look closely, they will see TFC up there on a % profit basis.

Raptors as a drain? Really, where do people come up with these things?

[Ivan]

I'm sure I'm not the only former or current Rogers stiff on the board - it's a huge company - but I worked for Rogers Media for four years and believe me, they know nothing if not how to squeeze every cent out of every corner of the business. The magazines produce digital content for wireless, wireless drives editorial copy and ads for the mags, radio, etc., Sportsnet gets support from all media....we'd get emails to get our asses down to the Dome to fill seats for Jays games. You name it. A good company to work for, but you, the "audience"? We spent our days figuring out how to "capture" you from your wake up alarm till you passed out in front of your flatscreen at midnight with your thumbs bloody from texting, eyes bloodshot, in your ratty Jays jersey, pants down for a Martine Gaillaird wank and your ears ringing as Nick Kypreos' god-forsaken mug droned on about something.

This may stating the obvious but they'll be interested in TFC in exactly the % of viewers of an exclusive Soccer Specialty Channel...which is a slam dunk (don't forget they own Setanta Canada. And TFC will fit nicely with their EPL rights) ...that'll you pay for. In a package. Not much will change for exposure I suppose, except that games will never be free on the CBC ever again. Sportsnet One. 'nuff said.

As for making TFC a winner? In their interest but it'll be a cost benefit analysis scaled entirely on maximum audience. If someone determines spending $5 mill on the club will drive up viewership and ad revenues (well) over $5mill, they'll do it. If it won't, they won't spend it. Simple as that.

For better or worse, get ready to be a treated like a Jays fan (proportional to viewership, that is).

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

Vic will agree with me, Western Canadians especially don't dig on the Centre of the Universe.

almost everyone will agree to that, but rogers has a meager if not tiny tiny presence west of ontario. its all jim shaw country out there, so - and pardon the torontonian arrogance but - who gives a rat's ass what they think?

i bet dollars to donuts nadir doesnt when he's lining up another good asset - thats all it comes down to.

[DichioTFC]

A good company to work for, but you, the "audience"? We spent our days figuring out how to "capture" you from your wake up alarm till you passed out in front of your flatscreen at midnight with your thumbs bloody from texting, eyes bloodshot, in your ratty Jays jersey, pants down for a Martine Gaillaird wank and your ears ringing as Nick Kypreos' god-forsaken mug droned on about something.

Whats wrong with that?


As for making TFC a winner? In their interest but it'll be a cost benefit analysis scaled entirely on maximum audience. If someone determines spending $5 mill on the club will drive up viewership and ad revenues (well) over $5mill, they'll do it. If it won't, they won't spend it. Simple as that.

For better or worse, get ready to be a treated like a Jays fan (proportional to viewership, that is).

Oh...

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

oh and kneel (yes that's how I spell it cause he is cooler then the regular spelling) nailed MLSE structure. It remains - they have assets and investments beyond sports franchises that I don't think Rogers has as much interest in *cough* Maple Leaf Square *cough*.

thanks martin :o (i cant spell your name differently at the moment)

[Keystone FC]

I'll defer my thoughts until this deal goes through. Until then we are what we are and that won't change until we change.

[tfcmanu]

Rogers will purchase TFC and turnaround and sell TFC to the new owner and he will buy BMO & Goltv and there you go we are all happy! :flare:

[tfcmanu]

When Rogers purchases TFC they will move them to Roger Center sell out lower bowl and charge 10 dollars for upper bowl and TFC will have crowds of 55,000 however NO GRASS!

[billyfly]

If Rogers succeeds buying MLSE's teams, it would have a huge impact on TSN's power in Toronto sports.

If Rogers chose to they could run every Toronto sports game every year on their networks and why wouldn't they with Sportsnet One, Ont., Leafs TV, GoalTV, Raps TV. If that wasn't enough they could just launch another network.

And AM 640.....see you later.

[billyfly]

Rogers could also save money in this deal through economies of scale.

During (non)-playoff time, players could help with the call volume in the cable and wireless call centres.

[Pookie]

Potential Positives:


TFC would get increased coverage given that Rogers would likely have the majority of broadcasts. Much the same way that MMA or UFC becomes one of the top stories on Sportsnet Connected in the days leading up to their broadcast
New ownership would represent a new Board of Directors. They could remove the current reporting structure involving Anselmi
Argos will stay at Rogers Centre. Presumably the management deal for BMO would transfer over. No sense removing a tenant from one building and paying extra for the same tenant to play at a new stadium, where you only get a share of the revenue
Culture change. To imply that lack of success with the Jays would carry over here is silly. The Jays play in a league in which only 4 teams in the American League make the playoffs and there is no salary cap
Attracting big (or semi big) names. As owners of the Jays, Rogers has shown a willingness to spend even when their attendance is near the bottom of the league. While not on par with the Yankees or Red Sox, the Jays have a much higher payroll than their attendance would seemingly dictate. Why? Because they also recognize the value of TV ratings and names generate interest.


Potential Negatives


Yes, you are trading one corporate owner for another. No guarantees of winning anything. Just a different set of suits driving the bus
The idea is to own the content and control the distribution. If you like Rogers as a Cable/Wireless provider, you are in luck. If not, you might find some kind of "reason" presented by Rogers for you to switch. Could be a specialty channel, some kind of wireless content, or...?
BMO Field would be the only "shared" ownership venue in their stable. They might end up buying it but they might end up building some new venue.. god forbid for you pampered assed 416 ers... somewhere other than in the mess of parking that is downtown

[Cashcleaner]

Guys, you know what just sort of hit me? What if, Toronto FC is a larger part of this deal than we think? I'm not going to suggest that Rogers is more interested in TFC than the Leafs, but I don't think we'd be all that far down the list, either.

Think about it.

The NHL is done expanding for the foreseeable future and the structure of the league, rules, and status of most teams is pretty much set in stone. As a sporting entity - the NHL has pretty much hit it's zenith financially and in terms of marketability. Of course, the Leafs still make money hand over fist, but is their growth and the growth of hockey greater compared to TFC and soccer?

Whereas the NHL is losing steam, MLS is gaining momentum. We've got Vancouver coming into the league next season followed by Montreal in 2012 along with other US clubs further down the line. The rest of the league (MLS) seems to be finally stabilizing and the dark days of constant franchise collapse or relocation is gone. On top of that, we've got a pretty good chance to see the US host the WC within ten years time.

Maybe Toronto FC and soccer in general is a bigger piece of the pie than we think, and Rogers wants to get in before things really heat up.

[Villa TFC]

Here's my two cents worth...

Rogers are apparently a rather nasty and ruthless corporate giant, according to everyone I know who has worked for them or with them. That doesn't necessarily make them any worse than MLSE except that MLSE is a sports and entertainment company. If Rogers buys the controlling interest in MLSE they are not doing it for TFC. I don't recall Rogers ever having expressed any interest in live professional soccer in this city at all. MLSE may not be the ideal owners (understatement of the year), but they freely chose to bring the MLS to Toronto. They put the money up, campaigned with the league, built a stadium (sort of), got a team together and have generally listened to the supporters although not necessarily as quickly or as precisely as many would have liked. They want TFC to succeed. Rogers would also want TFC to succeed providing the club is making a profit that they find acceptable. However, they'd have no qualms about selling TFC either to another local organisation or another city. It likely wouldn't break their hearts to fold the team either...as long as they could do it without losing money. I don't think MLSE would ever sell TFC to another city and I also don't think they would lightly choose to close the team.

TFC in this deal is much like the Marlies tickets in those Sportspaks that TFC were selling: like it or not, it comes with the package. Some buyers just gritted their teeth and went to the matches, others gave the tickets to friends, and some - probably the majority - just filed them away. I strongly suspect Rogers feels that way about TFC although they likely won't file them away unless they start losing money.

As for TV...with the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and TFC under one umbrella, just how much air time do you think our Reds would get on Rogers-owned mainstream media? The Jays play April-October which means that pretty much every single time TFC plays, the Jays would also be playing. I can guarantee that if the Leafs, Jays and probably even if the Raptors are playing that TFC would be the losers.

I strongly suspect Rogers would only invest money directly in TFC if they were guaranteed a return...and there is no guarantee in sports, especially soccer in Toronto. I could see Rogers vetoing any new financial investment in TFC.

Finally, there's the NFL scenario. Rogers' wet dream is to bring an NFL team to Toronto and you know that eventually they will succeed. I've been told that a huge portion of fans at a Bills' game on any given weekend are from north of the border, and the NFL know that too. In order to have an NFL team, Rogers might want/need to build a new stadium - maybe the Skydome would work, but I think they'd want something shiny and new for the second or third season. In order to make such a venue successful, they'd want it to be used as much as possible...so why not bring in TFC? Who cares if it's field turf, it would save them money. Who cares if it would be half-empty on a good day, it would still save them money.

So there you have it. As long as the Teachers get dividends on their MLSE investment, they don't care what MLSE does with their money. Rogers want this for way more than just money and unfortunately, TFC just doesn't feature into their decision-making process.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Villa TFC]

At the very instant I clicked "post" on that message, up popped an e-mail in my in box from "Rogers Communications." I'm scared, very very scared!

[Macksam]

Guys, you know what just sort of hit me? What if, Toronto FC is a larger part of this deal than we think? I'm not going to suggest that Rogers is more interested in TFC than the Leafs, but I don't think we'd be all that far down the list, either.

Think about it.

The NHL is done expanding for the foreseeable future and the structure of the league, rules, and status of most teams is pretty much set in stone. As a sporting entity - the NHL has pretty much hit it's zenith financially and in terms of marketability. Of course, the Leafs still make money hand over fist, but is their growth and the growth of hockey greater compared to TFC and soccer?

Whereas the NHL is losing steam, MLS is gaining momentum. We've got Vancouver coming into the league next season followed by Montreal in 2012 along with other US clubs further down the line. The rest of the league (MLS) seems to be finally stabilizing and the dark days of constant franchise collapse or relocation is gone. On top of that, we've got a pretty good chance to see the US host the WC within ten years time.

Maybe Toronto FC and soccer in general is a bigger piece of the pie than we think, and Rogers wants to get in before things really heat up.
Depends, in Canada, the NHL is about the same as it ever was. In the US, it's probably experiencing growth compared to the NBA which is losing steam.

[Pookie]

I don't recall Rogers ever having expressed any interest in live professional soccer in this city at all.

I think you need to do a little fact checking first.

- Rogers is one of TFC's major corporate sponsors

- Rogers (through their Sportsnet ownership) regularly broadcasts soccer specific content from The Soccer Show to Soccer Central, including TFC coverage. Rogers, again through Sportsnet, is one of the major carriers of Toronto FC

- Rogers, through their Fan590 ownership is the exclusive provider of TFC radio coverage, including games and post games and EPL coverage on weekends.

- Rogers is also big on soccer in general. Setanta Canada is owned by Rogers

Soccer clearly fits into the Rogers broadcast portfolio and like Cash said above, perhaps soccer is a bit of a hidden gem in the MLSE portfolio that is driving this deal forward.

[Borga]

A backdrop to this is that TSN is making noise about a wholesale fee of $4-$5, an increase from the $1.50ish they get now. That's a massive amount of money to Rogers, $30-$40 million per year, that would get sucked out of their cable side and go directly to their main competitor. If they can get all MLSE and Blue Jays content away from TSN and TSN2, it'll weaken those channels significantly.

[ensco]

In the long run, who knows what's good for TFC?

But in the short run....the odds of TFC getting a true soccer president just increased by about 10x.

[Villa TFC]

I think you need to do a little fact checking first.

- Rogers is one of TFC's major corporate sponsors

- Rogers (through their Sportsnet ownership) regularly broadcasts soccer specific content from The Soccer Show to Soccer Central, including TFC coverage. Rogers, again through Sportsnet, is one of the major carriers of Toronto FC

- Rogers, through their Fan590 ownership is the exclusive provider of TFC radio coverage, including games and post games and EPL coverage on weekends.

- Rogers is also big on soccer in general. Setanta Canada is owned by Rogers

Soccer clearly fits into the Rogers broadcast portfolio and like Cash said above, perhaps soccer is a bit of a hidden gem in the MLSE portfolio that is driving this deal forward.

I never said they weren't interested in soccer, especially on TV as you correctly point out (Setanta being the prime example), I just don't ever remember Rogers expressing an interest in bringing a pro team to Toronto before Toronto FC arrived. They've never disguised their interest in the NFL, but I don't remember even quiet rumours of an interest in the MLS.

My post is clearly a worst-case scenario. If Rogers were coming in looking to specifically buy TFC I would be very excited. I just fear that in a package that huge and which includes the Leafs and Raptors, we could easily be lost in the shuffle. I hope Cash is correct and I am very wrong.

[Beach_Red]

Another thing that might be important for TFC here is that if more revenue is going to be generated by TV ratings it will be even more important to have a great atmosphere at the stadium.

MLSE have made most of their money through ticket sales, but Rogers is looking for TV (and online) content, so it might be even more important to them that the stadium be full of enthusiastic supporters (even at lower ticket prices) than sitting-on-their-ass corporate seat holders.

[bgnewf]

I think in all seriousness it is really hard to see how this impacts TFC today if it happens. Both ownership groups of course have their pros and cons.

MLSE Pros
- A proven commitment to TFC
- Committed to building soccer infrastructure (academy, training facility, GOL TV, etc.)
- Consistency... they are the devil we know

MLSE Cons
- Corporate structure lends itself to more of a focus on profit growth year over year than on winning per se
- Poor record generally on hirings of team management of all their sports properties, TFC included, to date

Rogers Pros
- One owner in Rogers versus a "committee" of owners with MLSE may see more of a focus on winning sooner rather than later
- Possible more focus/exposure/production values put into TFC as a media broadcast property
- They have shown a pretty decent commitment to the game of soccer as a broadcast partner previously, which augers well for them with TFC

Rogers Cons
- They are the "devil we don't know". Much of the corporate knowledge base MLSE has with TFC fans may be lost if the club changes hands.
- Would the high cost of acquisition see them cut costs and lower investment in the club to help recoup costs?
- Ticket prices could steeply rise to help them pay for the purchase



I think we all should not get our collective knickers in a knot about this at all. We do not know first of all if it will even happen.

Earl Cochrane is getting on with the job of rebuilding this club on the field. Players are coming in and players are leaving. Klinsmann is getting on with his job by all acounts as well and we may soon see the fruits of his labours. The re-entry draft is days away... the SuperDraft is about five weeks away. Training camp is about seven weeks away. And there are eleven open roster spots to be dealt with.

There are many more immediate things for fans to be focused upon.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

I hate MLS+E but all things equal…let's say you know nothing about either of these "corporations".



Maple Leaf Sports + Entertainment
Products include: Pro hockey and basketball teams, sports arenas, sports channels

or

Rogers Communications
Products include: Cable TV, Wireless and Telecommunications, Publishing, Broadcasting, Pro baseball franchise.

Which one of these organizations would you want to run your football team? Remember (like me) you no nothing.

In the Rogers sports portfolio TFC drop a spot from number 3, at MLSE, to 4. And the Number One summer sport in this ownership is baseball…footy is second…at the gate and on television.

Careful what you wish for…

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

I think they end up selling TFC if they buy MLSE. The moves mostly about the getting the Leafs and controlling their TV rights. They can get all the TFC games they want to air right now, there's no real demand for them.

Might be interesting to see what happens with GOL TV and Setanta. No real sense for Rogers to own two soccer specific channels, especially with one being starved for content.

[Red CB Toronto]

Well if this deal would go down, the obvious choice to run the whole thing would be one of the ideal sports exeutives around, Paul Beaston. He knows his strengths and his weaknesses and acts accordingly. The was never more apparant than with him and Gillick. I am sure he would put the best person in place for each team and let them do their thing.

[Juanito]

The upside for Rogers .... they would control virtually all the sports media outlets. TSN would be put in a tough situation.

The downside .... there is no longer "an alternative". If you were upset with the Jays, you could go to Argos or TFC and vice-versa. Now, it's just the Argos (The Rock and The Nationals are not big enough).

Rogers could tell us to "take it raw" ... and we wouldn't have much choice.

I'm not a big fan of monopolies.

[Beach_Red]

Which one of these organizations would you want to run your football team? Remember (like me) you no nothing.


Even worse than you, I know nothing.

But with everything, once in a while it's just good to get some fresh eyes on it.

Sure, MLSE said they were evaluating everything when they hired Soccer Solutions, but there are plenty of people at MLSE and TFC who have personal agendas and careers to protect so they can't truly evaluate everything. Now they can.

[J .]

I havent read the thread, I dont have time, my thoughts are that its not about winning or anything, its about controlling the Toronto sporting scene, tv etc.

The sad thing is that MLSE and Rogers have won the same amount of trophies and have the same mentality.

If TFC is lucky there will be a rich owner who buys TFC from Rogers if Rogers deems it not big enough to be apart of their portfolio. That said MLSE has done a lot to develop the game and despite their short comings, I hope the new owners would put as much into the academy and so on as MLSE did.

[NBS]

People seem somewhat confused here.

The choice is not between MLSE and Rogers.

The choice is between the OTPP and Rogers.

MLSE remains intact.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I think they end up selling TFC if they buy MLSE. The moves mostly about the getting the Leafs and controlling their TV rights. They can get all the TFC games they want to air right now, there's no real demand for them.

Might be interesting to see what happens with GOL TV and Setanta. No real sense for Rogers to own two soccer specific channels, especially with one being starved for content.

im assuming youre talking about setanta which shows hurling and rugby etc, lord knows GolTV shows a ton of stuff on a regular basis

[boban]

I think in all seriousness it is really hard to see how this impacts TFC today if it happens. Both ownership groups of course have their pros and cons.

MLSE Pros
- A proven commitment to TFC

WTF are you talking about??!!!
Were these townhalls to applaud their commitment or rake them over the coals for lack of?!

[Whoop]

Bob McCown and Stephen Brunt's take: Rogers would essentially be overpaying for the Leafs.

In their opinion only two entities could buy the OTPP's share of MLSE - Rogers or Bell.

[Roogsy]

Which one of these organizations would you want to run your football team?

It depends. If Rogers is willing to admit that they know nothing of soccer and appoint a true President of Soccer to run the club properly (like the Whitecaps have done) then I'd prefer Rogers over MLSE. At least we are fairly certain nobody in this town will ever win anything as long as they are in charge. However, if Rogers is just as arrogant as MLSE, then all we will see is more of the same tomfoolery.

[DangerRed]

Which one of these organizations would you want to run your football team?


The bar is set very low. And if you don't give a shit about anything else in the MLSE portfolio other than TFC, you gotta believe it's worth taking your chances with the new ownership who will likely purge the existing MLSE regime.

The status quo isn't acceptable.

It took 5 years to get MLSE to admit something was wrong. We still don't know how long it will take to rectify it.

[billyfly]

Bob McCown and Stephen Brunt's take: Rogers would essentially be overpaying for the Leafs.

In their opinion only two entities could buy the OTPP's share of MLSE - Rogers or Bell.


Meaning they only want the Leafs but have to buy the Raps and TFC b/c its a package?

[phonzo]

MLSE does not disappear in this transaction. It continues to exist. You can't say replace MLSE with Rogers and you have a new direction. No you have a new influencer on the board but not necessarily a new "owner". The owner remains MLSE.

ugh.....

[phonzo]

Do you think OTPP has ever influenced the MLSE board about business decisions....doubtful. (other then make more $$). In addition for OTPP MLSE was always a long term profit investment only, for Rogers its profit + content.

Mark Cuban style ego would be nice

[Whoop]

Meaning they only want the Leafs but have to buy the Raps and TFC b/c its a package?

Their argument was as follows:

Leafs are king.
Raptors, from a financial standpoint AT THE MOMENT, are neutral.
TFC is turning a small profit but "the natives (fans) are restless."
The Marlies are a dog with fleas.

The profit from the condos has already been extracted, not much more money to be made there. (I thought the deal didn't include real estate.)

If there is a mortgage on the ACC the rate is pretty low.

While Rogers would get more content for their media outlets, essentially they're buying the Leafs at a higher cost, with some attachments which are neither here or there.

[billyfly]

^I agree with them.

[Whoop]

MLSE does not disappear in this transaction. It continues to exist. You can't say replace MLSE with Rogers and you have a new direction. No you have a new influencer on the board but not necessarily a new "owner". The owner remains MLSE.

ugh.....

While the owner would still remain "MLSE" wouldn't Rogers essentially replace the seats on the board that OTPP currently hold?

[Whoop]

Do you think OTPP has ever influenced the MLSE board about business decisions....doubtful. (other then make more $$). In addition for OTPP MLSE was always a long term profit investment only, for Rogers its profit + content.

Mark Cuban style ego would be nice

I would think the guys who sit on the board would have some influence, no?



Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. Board of Directors:


Larry Tanenbaum – Kilmer Sports (non-executive chairman of the board)
Richard Peddie – President and CEO
Robert Bertram – Senior Advisor, Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Glen Silvestri – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Ashvin Malkani – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Robert MacLellan – TD Capital
Dale Lastman - Goodmans LLP

[Pookie]

People seem somewhat confused here.

The choice is not between MLSE and Rogers.

The choice is between the OTPP and Rogers.

MLSE remains intact.

Kind of a moot point really. If the OTPP sells, MLSE as it stands now will not remain intact.

MLSE is made of the OTPP (65-7something%), Larry Tannenbaum (20%) and TD Capital (13-15%).

If Rogers becomes controlling owner, it is effectively Rogers. Nothing Tannenbaum or TD Capital could do to influence the direction.

That said, Tannenbaum, according to the Star, has first right of refusal if the OTPP sells. He either buys their shares (and effectively the empire) or lets the deal go through.

In either case, the sports properties have new ownership.

---

I like Beach Red's point about the atmosphere. This deal is about TV and other forms of distribution of content. That content has to be appealing to a TV audience that suits their demographic and I like the chances that atmosphere will be a priority going forward.

Look, in the end, a new owner can't be any worse than what we have now... could it?

[Cowboy905]

Goodmans has their fingers in the pie too?? Wow, i actually learned something from this forum.

[Beach_Red]

^I agree with them.

It's hard to know what the value of "content" will be moving forward. It would be like a TV network getting a top-rated show - 80 or more episodes a year - forever. Live sports are still one of the cheapest prime time TV shows produced.

[Roogsy]

People seem somewhat confused here.

The choice is not between MLSE and Rogers.

The choice is between the OTPP and Rogers.

MLSE remains intact.


I haven't look into it but when someone mentioned it to me I thought they were buying MLSE lock stock and barrell. If they're just looking at buying out one of the current holders, then yup...business as usual. Nothing changes for us.

[Whoop]

But OTPP is the majority shareholder at 67%. So even though MLSE would remain intact, wouldn't Rogers be calling most of the shots?

[Roogsy]

Yeah, and probably be more active than OTPP was. But in terms of the structure of MLSE, my guess is that it would continue to look similar to what it is now except for changes at the board level with new directors replacing outgoing ones.

[Pookie]

I haven't look into it but when someone mentioned it to me I thought they were buying MLSE lock stock and barrell. If they're just looking at buying out one of the current holders, then yup...business as usual. Nothing changes for us.

see above. If OTPP sells, everything changes. The corporation (and culture) that is MLSE is effectively no more.

[phonzo]

But OTPP is the majority shareholder at 67%. So even though MLSE would remain intact, wouldn't Rogers be calling most of the shots?

Yes - but is it better to have someone call the shots or to sit back is the point I've been driving too. I see Rogers calling the shots more but hopefully in a positive direction versus OTPP who lets MLSE do what it wants as long as certain margins are fulfilled :)

[phonzo]

I would think the guys who sit on the board would have some influence, no?

Whoopee - not that OTPP doesn't have influence but does it bother exerting it into the sports realm or the profit realm :)

[Pookie]

^ Boys, it isn't a question of calling the shots more... as a majority shareholder they would call ALL the shots. Period.

Nothing Tannenbaum or TD Capital could do. Rogers would own TFC (Leafs, Raptors, Marlies, ACC, etc.)

[phonzo]

Now for some more general points:

1) I doubt Peddie is the one that leaked this - if you think about it. It is true he has nothing to lose be leaking it he also has absolutely nothing to gain. Who does have something to gain:

2) OTPP Investment Arm - If the discussions have been ongoing for a while then this is simply a move to jack up the price more as there are other (well realistically one see point 3) bidders that can toss their hat in. Originally I had heard was that 1.3 Billion was the valuation of the leafs not all the additional assets (Raptors, TFC, Leafs TV etc). I can see them trying to push for more cash out of the deal to make it seem even better for OTPP...i.e whoopee's habs reference earlier in the thread.

2a) The leak could have also come from a three letter acronym firm that helps manage OTPP's books...that's also possible.

3) Bell is the only possible contender when there is this amount of cash on the line and the ability to maximize on that cash investment. There are other companies that can come close to that but they probably cannot maximize their return on the investment as well as Rogers / Bell can.

[phonzo]

I'm arguing semantics because it's important folks don't misrepresent the facts. I'm not disagreeing the amount of influence and impact that Rogers would now have just saying owns implies a lot of other things from a business / books sense :).

Side note does anyone know who makes up the Rogers Blue Jays Partnership. My understanding was that it was only semantics there and that divisions of Rogers simply made up the money that went into it and hence they said partnership for all sorts of legalize fun.

[Whoop]

Thanks for the credit phonzo but it wasn't me.

It was ensco.


That is a big number. Videotron bid huge for the Habs last year ($550 million) and lost. The final price for the Habs was $575 million, about 50% more than the $350-400 million Gillett had originally expected to get. Rogers is trying to knock out any other bidders. It's not likely in this case, because of the bigger amounts, that anyone can pull together a syndicate to compete with a phone company, the way the Molsons did. But it's not a knockout bid, yet. If someone comes in with a partner to take the real estate, that would be the vastly preferred option. Keeping ACC doesn't make sense for MLSE.

Why Rogers? Sports team content will become a "magic app" on mobile devices, i.e. something only you can offer that competitors can't compete with. Expect to see Bell jump into this before it's over.

Why now? Rogers execs must be really getting worried that the some or all of the new entrants will really impact (ie lower) mobile pricing.

Calling Jim Balsillie. Anybody there?

[ensco]

Now for some more general points:

1) I doubt Peddie is the one that leaked this - if you think about it. It is true he has nothing to lose be leaking it he also has absolutely nothing to gain. Who does have something to gain:


Never underestimate spite as a motive. Peddie was humiliated yesterday.

Of course, who knows? There are lots of potential explanations. A lot of times, when a public company is contemplating a big move, they leak it themselves, to suss out what the stock market reaction might be.

But my money's on Peddie. The timing is too cute.

[boban]

see above. If OTPP sells, everything changes. The corporation (and culture) that is MLSE is effectively no more.
What are you smoking?
Nothing changes in that regard.

[Beach_Red]

What are you smoking?
Nothing changes in that regard.

It doesn't change automatically, but the possibility that could change exists. There'll be a new board of directors (mostly) a new CEO, new president.

The Teachers just sold CTV and there are many changes to the corporate culture coming in already.

[jazzy]

[quote=Villa TFC;1176335]Here's my two cents worth...

I strongly suspect Rogers would only invest money directly in TFC if they were guaranteed a return...and there is no guarantee in sports, especially soccer in Toronto. I could see Rogers vetoing any new financial investment in TFC.

Finally, there's the NFL scenario. Rogers' wet dream is to bring an NFL team to Toronto and you know that eventually they will succeed. I've been told that a huge portion of fans at a Bills' game on any given weekend are from north of the border, and the NFL know that too. In order to have an NFL team, Rogers might want/need to build a new stadium - maybe the Skydome would work, but I think they'd want something shiny and new for the second or third season. In order to make such a venue successful, they'd want it to be used as much as possible...so why not bring in TFC? Who cares if it's field turf, it would save them money. Who cares if it would be half-empty on a good day, it would still save them money.

Yes I believe if they buy MLSE, the skydome is eventually rebuilt, as for Rogers they will spend any money that their GM requests on the Blue Jays...as they will do on any of theyr're teams, Ted Rogers lost a fortune on the jays....yes he git the dome for a pittance.... remember they have a great teacher in the Leafs and don't want to give up draft picks for 'now' guys...smart!.....Remember sports would be a huge important business, maybe eventually the #1 investment, as they see what the yankees have done with their TV/radio network....The only NFL team Rogers gets, is a team leaving a poor marketing area agreeable to the NFL owners, as NY would never allow the bills to leave completely......and the bills stink here compared to the tight atmosphere of Wilson Stadium where everyone there is cheering for them,... unlike here. Unfortunately, I don't see the BMO stadium now ever being expanded, unless in a coopertive for world cup/olympics....'as if', scary though if they did rebuild skydome, god hopes a mixed use wasn't on the adgenda........think about it, like the Jays we'd be saying.....remember in the beginning when wwe used to watch TFC down by the lake at the ex??? LOL:( ..........................They'd never hesitate to sell the team, to get back a little of theyr'e investment to a soccer investor.......It's all good, how soon we forget the MLSE mismanagement...

[Pookie]

What are you smoking?
Nothing changes in that regard.

?

A new owner who controls the majority of the shares and you don't think anything will change? A bigger question is why would Rogers put out $1.3B and you think "nothing changes"?

Granted, I doubt that you'd see Burke/Colangelo and their respective staffs affected by this acquisition. Nor would this flow down to ticket reps, marketing folks, game staff, etc.

But you would see turnover at the top in terms of personnel, culture and vision.

The question is, whose vision?

There are a few nuances to this story.

If the OTPP opts to sell the team, the person who has the first right of refusal is Larry Tannenbaum. He can buy their shares and would become the controlling owner. That "single owner" some craved could become a reality.

Except for the fact that $1.3B is a lot of money and Tannenbaum might need some partners to make that happen.

If Tannenbaum refuses the shares, Rogers conceivably gets them.

Either way, there is a new controlling interest. Controlling interest means owner and no one is spending that kind of coin to keep the status quo.

Incidentally, isn't it just a little curious that the Peddie "retirement" story gets floated out a day or two in advance of this "leak"?

[backbeat]

i'm for the devil you know

i'll take MLSE any old day over Rogers - we know MLSE is spending and doing things - Grass, stadium expansion, building a state-of-the-art practice facility - maybe Rogers will continue and maybe they will focus on the Leafs, NFL, Jays etc.

i believe they will hook up a backburner that is alot further back than the backburner to put TFC on!!

not good news...

[boban]

It doesn't change automatically, but the possibility that could change exists. There'll be a new board of directors (mostly) a new CEO, new president.

The Teachers just sold CTV and there are many changes to the corporate culture coming in already.
Nothing changes. It's just boardroom musical chairs. The song remains the same.
Listen, TPP has been part owners for 20 years. you think it has been the same people on the board for them? Thery change people every few years but the machine that is MLSE keep son rolling. CTV sold and still it keeps rolling.
Rogers is buying not for reasons of sport, but reasons of content for their cable and mobile divisions. The culture will be the same, much like a new government in Ottawa changes but things remain the same. The machine that is MLSE will require no rocking the boat in terms of the sports properties. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see any tangible change from a sport perspective.

[boban]

?

A new owner who controls the majority of the shares and you don't think anything will change? A bigger question is why would Rogers put out $1.3B and you think "nothing changes"?
See my above post

[Oldtimer]

Construction magnate Larry Tanenbaum likely won’t sell his minority stake in Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment but he may soon need to decide whether to make an expensive run for control of the biggest prize in Canadian sport, sources say.
Sources close to Tanenbaum said Wednesday that he will definitely hold his 20.5 per cent interest in MLSE, owners of the iconic hockey Maple Leafs, basketball Raptors and other sport properties, however he faces a dilemma on whether to exercise a first right to buy the majority stake from the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan.


http://www.thestar.com/business/companies/article/900110--tanenbaum-won-t-sell-minority-stake-in-mlse

[Beach_Red]

Nothing changes. It's just boardroom musical chairs. The song remains the same.
Listen, TPP has been part owners for 20 years. you think it has been the same people on the board for them? Thery change people every few years but the machine that is MLSE keep son rolling. CTV sold and still it keeps rolling.
Rogers is buying not for reasons of sport, but reasons of content for their cable and mobile divisions. The culture will be the same, much like a new government in Ottawa changes but things remain the same. The machine that is MLSE will require no rocking the boat in terms of the sports properties. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see any tangible change from a sport perspective.

Maybe you're right, maybe not. There have already been some big changes at CTV - Ivan Fecan is out and all the Canadian shows he had in development are now in limbo and likely to not move ahead. This is common in TV. I guess the sports persepctive would be Peddie's replacement, picked by Rogers, may continue with things as they are, or he may make changes. They may even change the corporate structure and TFC may even get its own president.

With new ownership anything is possible. Sure, it may be the same, it may even be worse, but this is sports - sports are based on the idea that we might win the next game, might as well be optimistic.

[Red CB Toronto]

I would think you would see Keith Pelley, a great people person when it comes to sports and Phil Lind on the board along with Beaston so just on that account the sports IQ would go way up.

[sidvan]

Rogers, Teachers fail to connect on Leafs deal

After a report surfaced Tuesday that Rogers had made a bid for MLSE, Teachers sent a message (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/teachers-tell-nhl-they-have-no-plans-to-sell-mlse-stake/article1821424/) to the National Hockey League saying it was not discussing a sale of its stake with potential suitors.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rogers-teachers-fail-to-connect-on-leafs-deal/article1820071/

[billyfly]

^BS. It has been a poor kept secret that the OTPP have been shopping their stake in MLSE. Rogers people know this, Sports Media knows this, Bay St knows this.

The question is - where are they in talks? I don;t believe anything imminent but with Keith Pelley and Scott Morrison there they are most probably pushing this or guiding Rogers into this.

[billyfly]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=343627

This i pretty much agree with.

The guys from the Star had the balls to come out with a story that many felt didn't have enough meat. The Sports media were sitting on this story for a while.

[Pookie]

Nothing changes. It's just boardroom musical chairs. The song remains the same.
Listen, TPP has been part owners for 20 years. you think it has been the same people on the board for them? Thery change people every few years but the machine that is MLSE keep son rolling. CTV sold and still it keeps rolling.
Rogers is buying not for reasons of sport, but reasons of content for their cable and mobile divisions. The culture will be the same, much like a new government in Ottawa changes but things remain the same. The machine that is MLSE will require no rocking the boat in terms of the sports properties. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see any tangible change from a sport perspective.

OTPP isn't a "part owner" they are the majority owner. They own 66% of the shares, meaning if they wanted the Leafs to wear berets instead of helmets, they could make 'em.

So, if the deal happens, Rogers calls the shots. Period.

Where I agree with you is that I'm not sure what culture Rogers would bring.

Clearly, having content that is in high demand is a prime benefit they are seeking. I'd like to hope that they make the connection between a winning culture and high demand.

I'd like to hope that they understand that by promoting Toronto FC and creating a fan friendly environment around the team, they will in turn fuel that demand.

I'd like to hope that they are savvy enough to want to install their own leadership structure as a corporation. This move is made a lot easier by Peddie's rumoured retirement.

The best scenario in any restructuring for TFC is that they remove Anselmi who has no soccer management background and replace him with a reputable TFC President. That is what the Jays did in bringing in Paul Beeston as President and CEO of the Jays and Rogers Centre. That's the structure the Leafs and Raptors have with Burke and Colangelo serving as Presidents. (Of course, whether those are the right bums in those seats is another debate entirely but the fact that the seat is there is a good thing)

That's what I hope but like you, I have no way to know what exactly they would do.

But what is true is that they would have the opportunity to make an impact. Whether they take that opportunity is the biggest question of this whole scenario.

[Wull]

I keep reading this as Roogsy to buy mlse! At least we know TFC would creep up the priority list

[ag futbol]

I tend to disagree if Rogers buys it will be business as usual.

The way OTPP runs MLSE their is little incentive to win. Rogers is buying MLSE for content, if the content sucks, they lose value. They have incentive to make it good, which doesn't guarantee it will be, but it gives me more hope than the current situation.

[TFC07]

Interesting...



The owners of MLSE have tried on a number of occasions in recent years to resolve what sources describe as an increasingly tense alliance between the franchise’s two major owners, Ontario Teachers and Mr. Tanenbaum. Mr. Tanenbaum has been pushing to invest more money into the struggling team and has grown increasingly frustrated with Ontario Teachers’ resistance to additional spending on a franchise that, despite its poor performance on the ice, has delivered solid returns to its shareholders.

“There has been a lot of tension. Tanenbaum is a classic rich guy who would do anything to win and Teachers has a cold bottom line approach,” the source said.

People close to Mr. Tanenbaum said he has been seeking more influence over the team’s management and he has made it clear to the board, one source said, “that he is not a seller.”

A possible ally for Mr. Tanenbaum could be Rogers Communications. Mr. Tanenbaum was close friend with the company’s late founder Ted Rogers and the two joined forces in 2008 to occasionally host National Football Team games in Toronto.

[rocker]

Rogers is buying MLSE for content, if the content sucks, they lose value. They have incentive to make it good, which doesn't guarantee it will be, but it gives me more hope than the current situation.

But I doubt that matters with the Leafs. Ratings are great whether the team sucks or not.

Also, the Blue Jays have had solid TV ratings despite crap attendances and mediocre performances.

Winning helps, but that's the same argument people have used about MLSE -- MLSE could make a lot more $$$ if the teams won championships.

[Carts]

But I doubt that matters with the Leafs. Ratings are great whether the team sucks or not.


That's incorrect. Leaf ratings are strong, but fall significantly when the team is not in contention, and/or not competitive.

A "playoff" Leaf team or even competitive Leaf team is worth several times what a losing, and/or current Leaf team is...



Also, the Blue Jays have had solid TV ratings despite crap attendances and mediocre performances.


Yes & no. The Jays constantly deliver excellent, yes EXCELLENT, TV numbers. But, Blue Jays numbers when in the pennant race are HUGE! Yes, HUGE, and only get bigger and bigger as the team suceeds...



Winning helps, but that's the same argument people have used about MLSE -- MLSE could make a lot more $$$ if the teams won championships.

[Redcoe15]

umm really you expected the jays to get turned around in 10 years?...fuck people have ridiculous expectations for MLB as they were spoiled by the early back to back world series. When did the jays win a world series prior to that...oh wait.

As for the buffalo bills do they own the team? No. So your making the connection that bringing the bills to Toronto should mean that Rogers somehow makes sure they win when the bills have sucked longer before that agreement was reached..

wow.
First paragraph. It was under Rogers appointed president for the Jays Paul Godfrey who sold everyone the bill of goods that the Jays would return back to the glory days of the World Series. He brought in J.P. Ricciardi and pimped him as the guy to turn the franchise around. And, when they signed B.J. Ryan and A.J. Burnett five years ago, everyone believed that there was light at the end of the tunnel. At the end of the Godfrey/Ricciardi era, the Jays were no closer to improvement than when Rogers bought the team. Ten years is plenty of time to turn things around.

Second paragraph. Rogers paid a shitload of money with Bills owner Ralph Wilson to stage eight Bills home games over five years at the Rogers Center. Then, in order to make up the money payed out, they started charging Toronto ticket buyers an obsene amount for the right to tickets for ALL eight games. That stragedy backfired on them as sales were far short of Rogers expectations, and they ended up giving away a lot of tickets to make it seem like the games were well attended.

Bottom line, when it comes to running actual sports teams - and they were operating the Bills in Toronto as if they did own the team - Rogers has so far shown they are not that good. That's why I said this deal can't be good.

[Phil]

The way the Buffalo Bills thing was handeled really showed me that Rogers is all about the money and nothing else.

[BFin]

First paragraph. It was under Rogers appointed president for the Jays Paul Godfrey who sold everyone the bill of goods that the Jays would return back to the glory days of the World Series. He brought in J.P. Ricciardi and pimped him as the guy to turn the franchise around. And, when they signed B.J. Ryan and A.J. Burnett five years ago, everyone believed that there was light at the end of the tunnel. At the end of the Godfrey/Ricciardi era, the Jays were no closer to improvement than when Rogers bought the team. Ten years is plenty of time to turn things around.

Second paragraph. Rogers paid a shitload of money with Bills owner Ralph Wilson to stage eight Bills home games over five years at the Rogers Center. Then, in order to make up the money payed out, they started charging Toronto ticket buyers an obsene amount for the right to tickets for ALL eight games. That stragedy backfired on them as sales were far short of Rogers expectations, and they ended up giving away a lot of tickets to make it seem like the games were well attended.

Bottom line, when it comes to running actual sports teams - and they were operating the Bills in Toronto as if they did own the team - Rogers has so far shown they are not that good. That's why I said this deal can't be good.

Really? So them operating the only sports team in Toronto in the past 3 years that has finished above .500, while in the toughest division in the major sports, is bad?

When it comes to running actual sports teams, it would seem Rogers is the only one who gets it right more than they get it wrong.

[Redcoe15]

Really? So them operating the only sports team in Toronto in the past 3 years that has finished above .500, while in the toughest division in the major sports, is bad?

When it comes to running actual sports teams, it would seem Rogers is the only one who gets it right more than they get it wrong.
Like I said before, they were no better now than when they first started. They've been spinning their wheels for the past ten years. You'd think there'd be some tangible improvement by now.

[BFin]

Like I said before, they were no better now than when they first started. They've been spinning their wheels for the past ten years. You'd think there'd be some tangible improvement by now.

That wasn't your point. Your point was that bottom line they don't know how to run a team....while running the most successful of the major teams.

So bottom line is that they run the MOST successful major sports franchise in Toronto. No?

And your new point is boiling down to, not winning a championship = not knowing how to run a team. Which we all know is not the truth.

[JonO]

The way the Buffalo Bills thing was handeled really showed me that Rogers is all about the money and nothing else.
I agree that the tickets were overpriced, but they weren't even priced high enough for Rogers to recoup the amount they initially paid out. It was not a well though out venture...

[Redcoe15]

That wasn't your point. Your point was that bottom line they don't know how to run a team....while running the most successful of the major teams.

So bottom line is that they run the MOST successful major sports franchise in Toronto. No?
No. The Toronto Rock would beg to differ.

[BFin]

No. The Toronto Rock would beg to differ.

Major. Major.

Utilizing a point that in no way invalidates my initial point does not equate to debate win.

I think you just need to admit to yourself, that the Jays are the most successful Major sports team, from a win/loss perspective. Which means that Rogers runs the most successful on field product (in a major sport) in Toronto.

Yes?

[phonzo]

I agree that the tickets were overpriced, but they weren't even priced high enough for Rogers to recoup the amount they initially paid out. It was not a well though out venture...

exactly..someone dropped the ball on the Bills one..or maybe it was political maneuvering and contemplating bring a real NFL team to Canada...tough to say at this point.

[Fort York Redcoat]

exactly..someone dropped the ball on the Bills one..or maybe it was political maneuvering and contemplating bring a real NFL team to Canada...tough to say at this point.


That was a venture to test the water of live NFL in Toronto. Rogers Jr was willing to take a loss to try and get the Toronto Sports Fan onside that the city is NFLcrazy. That doesn't mean the fans will watch the Bills.

But if they were real NFL "league" fans they would've gone to the games in droves. They didn't. Fail.

[Redcoe15]

Major. Major.

Utilizing a point that in no way invalidates my initial point does not equate to debate win.

I think you just need to admit to yourself, that the Jays are the most successful Major sports team, from a win/loss perspective. Which means that Rogers runs the most successful on field product (in a major sport) in Toronto.

Yes?
Fine, if you want to split hairs and say technically that Rogers runs the most successful sports outfit in Toronto based on wins and losses, and not look into how they're not much different from ML$E in the way they operate their sports entities, then knock yourself out. Whatever.

[ensco]

There would be a huge difference in style between an OTTP-owned MLSE and one owned by Rogers or Bell.

If MLSE is a division of a larger corporation, the lines of authority should be clear.

The problem with the OTTP setup has been, right from the Stavro days, that you've never really had clear definitions of authority. Plus OTTP have been terrified of exerting their control (which is a real indictment of what's going on with this investment in itself).

So you get all these weird multilateral governance relationships - a minority owner as Chair (Tanenbaum), guys with special reporting clauses in contracts (Burke and Colangelo), other execs with totally oddball job definitions (Anselmi).

Also, private equity ownership is not good overall for employee morale or recruiting great senior people - everyone knows that the company is always for sale. Private equity funds have had horrible returns in recent years, and nobody can raise a new fund, in part because of these problems.

The Rogers/Bell version of the corporate sports ownership model has worked pretty well in Philly and Denver. Not so well in NY.

I'd still rather see some grillionaire like Balsillie buy MLSE.

[BFin]

**EDIT** Great Points by Ensco. Comcast has been great for Philly.

No technically about it. My statement had concrete evidence behind it, where as yours was all conjecture and personal opinion. I believe mine was more fact that technicality.

I believe the comparison you're looking for is OTPP v Rogers and not MLSE v Rogers. MLSE is a group of teams and venues owned by a larger corporation. OTPP is that owner in the same way Rogers wants to be.

Still very little backing in your statement at all, but allow me to offer some more insights:

- Rogers CEO Nadir Mohammed spent time with the Jays at their training camp and had a hands on voice/face for the players. OTPP? Nope.
- Rogers would not be operating under a bottom line or bust strategy. They are willing to commit dollars to make the scouting staff, player development, and team better? OTPP? Nope...otherwise why would Tannenbaum have to fight them all the time for help? On the flip side, Rogers has provided the resources for Anthopoulos to build himself the biggest pro and amateur scouting staffs in baseball.
- How are the Jays operating the same as the Leafs/Raps/TFC? They have a legitimate plan involving young players and building through veteran additions when the time to compete comes.

These are two fundamentally different approaches from a parent company perspective. Can you cite some examples of why they are less successful, why they operate in the same way, and why they would be bad for MLSE?

[Beach_Red]

Also, private equity ownership is not good overall for employee morale or recruiting great senior people - everyone knows that the company is always for sale. Private equity funds have had horrible returns in recent years, and nobody can raise a new fund, in part because of these problems.

The Rogers/Bell version of the corporate sports ownership model has worked pretty well in Philly and Denver. Not so well in NY.

I'd still rather see some grillionaire like Balsillie buy MLSE.

Yes, and it may be related to the difficulty in recruiting, but it seems that senior people with Teacher's companies stay in their positions too long. And that can also be a factor in the rest of the employee morale.

[Red Rat]

The day BMO Field becomes Roger's Field that will be the day that I call it quits

[Wull]

The day BMO Field becomes Roger's Field that will be the day that I call it quits

I'd rather it be named after a Toronto-based company myself

[nascarguy]

There would be a huge difference in style between an OTTP-owned MLSE and one owned by Rogers or Bell.

If MLSE is a division of a larger corporation, the lines of authority should be clear.

The problem with the OTTP setup has been, right from the Stavro days, that you've never really had clear definitions of authority. Plus OTTP have been terrified of exerting their control (which is a real indictment of what's going on with this investment in itself).

So you get all these weird multilateral governance relationships - a minority owner as Chair (Tanenbaum), guys with special reporting clauses in contracts (Burke and Colangelo), other execs with totally oddball job definitions (Anselmi).

Also, private equity ownership is not good overall for employee morale or recruiting great senior people - everyone knows that the company is always for sale. Private equity funds have had horrible returns in recent years, and nobody can raise a new fund, in part because of these problems.

The Rogers/Bell version of the corporate sports ownership model has worked pretty well in Philly and Denver. Not so well in NY.

I'd still rather see some grillionaire like Balsillie buy MLSE.you never know he could be it's a way to get his hands on the bigest team owner in the NHL

[prizby]

I had a talk about this with Brian Williams of CTV Sports.

He had an interesting perception that this was leaked for a reason; there is no way Bell/CTV are going to sit on their hands and let this happen; Rogers would dominate the cable market; would dominate the sports market.

Anyone ever watched any sports coverage or the two minutes of sports highlights on Global...pretty brutal.

He felt that Shaw Communications (owners of Global) would definitely get in on the bidding as they try to broaden their reach in the market

It makes sense

[Red Rat]

I'd rather it be named after a Toronto-based company myself

Great I will name you myself, let me find one that will suit you.

[Red Rat]

going back to the news read this, they want 1.5 billion for it. Ouch I guess that we may be stuck with MLSE for a bit


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/teachers-want-15-billion-for-its-mlse-stake/article1823135/

[razor787]

The day BMO Field becomes Roger's Field that will be the day that I call it quits

Why? If it were a traditional name like 'Dichio Park' or something, than i would be right behind you. But it would just be going from one corporate name to another one.

[Red Rat]

Why? If it were a traditional name like 'Dichio Park' or something, than i would be right behind you. But it would just be going from one corporate name to another one.

I hate Rogers, to the point that I would strap myself to dynamite and blow them to pieces. Did I mention that I hate Rogers!

Rogers sucks ass!

[razor787]

haha. Im not really a fan of them either. I definately dont think they would be the best owners, and I wouldnt put it past them to rename the stadium.

I hope to hell though that Balsillie makes a bid for them instead. I want Toronto to turn into a winning city. MLSE isnt doing that, I dont think rogers would, I dont know what Bell would do, but Balsillie would put everything he could, into making Toronto a top notch sporting city.

[Waggy]

Say what you will about Rogers, but they've always given the Jays GM cash and leeway. That's all a GM can ask. Did they make a mistake holding on to JP too long? probably. But then again, JPs draft picks and signings were making Anthopolous (who I LOVE) look real good last year so who knows. All I know is the Jays have spent 90 million on payroll in a single season under Rogers, when in reality they could have spent 60-70 for the same result. If the Leafs under the current ownership had the option of coming in 3rd place for 90 million or 60 million, which do you think they would take

[razor787]

What do you mean they could have had the same result for 30mil less? I dont follow the jays that much, but that doesnt make any sense at all. That extra 20-30 million, would have done a lot, wether you think so or not. Give anyone the option of paying 90 million, or 60 million for the same thing, everyone will pay the 60. Including the Jays if they realized they were wasting their money.

[Red Rat]

sorry I hate Rogers and maybe more specific Rogers Wireless, phone and Cable.
I would blow them up any time

[razor787]

sorry I hate Rogers and maybe more specific
I would blow them any time

Something you arent telling us?

[Waggy]

What do you mean they could have had the same result for 30mil less? I dont follow the jays that much, but that doesnt make any sense at all. That extra 20-30 million, would have done a lot, wether you think so or not. Give anyone the option of paying 90 million, or 60 million for the same thing, everyone will pay the 60. Including the Jays if they realized they were wasting their money.

It wasn't wasting their money but it was being VERY optimistic. The Jays are in the AL East, their competitors spend 150 and 200 million dollars respectively. They are generally destined to wind up 3rd or 4th no matter what, because ultimately whether they spent 60 or 90 million wouldnt make much of a difference. In fact, the Rays ended up winning by tanking and just getting good draft picks as opposed to trying to match the spending and revenues. It wouldn't have hurt the Jays bottom line much to tank for picks (this past summer of tanking wasn't bad right?), esp since they would be 3rd or 4th anyways, and tanking may have helped long term. The Jays were stubborn though, they wanted to spend. So they did. Maybe to the detriment of the team.

Now, they went the rebuild way and have publicly said that while they can't compete with the Yankees payroll they can and will with the Red Sox (though not yet, once the rebuild is complete). I can't imagine MLSE doing any of the above if they were a baseball owner. I'll take an owner who throws money at a problem first over an owner who tries to spend as little money as possible any day of the week. Even if throwing money at a problem isn't necessarily the answer.

[BFin]

What do you mean they could have had the same result for 30mil less? I dont follow the jays that much, but that doesnt make any sense at all. That extra 20-30 million, would have done a lot, wether you think so or not. Give anyone the option of paying 90 million, or 60 million for the same thing, everyone will pay the 60. Including the Jays if they realized they were wasting their money.

How can you make a statement like this and expect anyone to take your entire post seriously?

[BFin]

sorry I hate Rogers and maybe more specific Rogers Wireless, phone and Cable.
I would blow them up any time

Come find me then.

Moronic statements like this can get you into trouble bossman.

[rocker]

I think the signing of Brian Burke was a much better signing than Anthopolous. If TFC signed someone with so little experience as Anthopolous, people would be pissed off. i'll wait and see on him. JP Ricciardi arrived with a similar hope -- young, smart, inexperienced GM.

[nobodybeatsthewiz]

hasnt been long so theres not a ton to compare but id say anthopolous has done a better job than burke so far.

[phonzo]

1) BMO is technically a Toronto company as well; headquarters here and in Montreal. Their presence in Quebec is also a lot smaller then people think (Desjardins is huge)
2) Brian Williams....sort of forgot that Shaw is absolutely broke. The CanWest purchase put a big dent into their pocket book. Even Bell isn't as well off financially after the Globemedia buy but could put together the cash to compete against Rogers.
3) Shaw also doesn't have the market for the content they would acquire. Who wants the raptors and leafs in the West?

[billyfly]

I think Red Rat has spent a lot of time with Roger customer service.

[BFin]

Or every customer service department for anything he has ever purchased...

[billyfly]

Rogers is special though Bfin. Even Nadir jokes about it...lol

But you are right lots of call centre based cx services sux.

[prizby]

1) BMO is technically a Toronto company as well; headquarters here and in Montreal. Their presence in Quebec is also a lot smaller then people think (Desjardins is huge)
2) Brian Williams....sort of forgot that Shaw is absolutely broke. The CanWest purchase put a big dent into their pocket book. Even Bell isn't as well off financially after the Globemedia buy but could put together the cash to compete against Rogers.
3) Shaw also doesn't have the market for the content they would acquire. Who wants the raptors and leafs in the West?

broke? even though there net income was over half a billion last year?

[BFin]

They didn't buy CanWest last year.

Their share values have dropped 11% this year, while the TSX has increased 4.5%...that isn't good news.

[Red Rat]

Come find me then.

Moronic statements like this can get you into trouble bossman.

I would blow them up anytime!!
would you like me to say it again?


I think Red Rat has spent a lot of time with Roger customer service.

press one if you hate Rogers
1111111111111111111111111111111
press 2 if you hate Rogers
2222222222222222222222222222222
press 3 if you would like to speak to Santa
1111111111111111111111111111111

Or every customer service department for anything he has ever purchased...

and now you humour me..

press 9 if....

[ensco]

I agree that Shaw/Canwest is extremely unlikely. This is not about TV. You can rent all the programming you want/need on TV.

One dark horse here is Orascom (Wind Mobile). They have deep pockets and want a Toronto-centric footprint. Not saying it's likely.

[BFin]

I would blow them up anytime!!
would you like me to say it again?



press one if you hate Rogers
1111111111111111111111111111111
press 2 if you hate Rogers
2222222222222222222222222222222
press 3 if you would like to speak to Santa
1111111111111111111111111111111


and now you humour me..

press 9 if....

With such an eloquent position, I can't possibly see why customer service wouldn't bend over backwards for you.

[ManUtd4ever]

A spokesperson for the OTPP has denied receiving any offers for the majority stake in MLSE. Of course that doesn't mean something isn't brewing behind the scenes...

[Beach_Red]

I agree that Shaw/Canwest is extremely unlikely. This is not about TV. You can rent all the programming you want/need on TV.

One dark horse here is Orascom (Wind Mobile). They have deep pockets and want a Toronto-centric footprint. Not saying it's likely.


Yes, Shaw/CanWest seems unlikely but it may be about TV content - you can "rent" all the programming you need, if you're needed at all. At the moment the future of the TV business is really uncertain and especially the middle-men in the content-to-customer role.

Rogers or Bell are still in the best position to make the most money controlling the live sports content and making it available directly to customers (on TV, online, phones, however).

[Damien]

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=sbd.preview&articleID=144044

Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Seeking $1.5B For MLSE Stake, Which Includes Maple Leafs The "asking price for the stake held by the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board" in Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment is $1.5B (all figures U.S.)....