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View Full Version : Right Now, Would You Give DeRo DP Money for the next season?



prizby
12-01-2010, 12:18 AM
It is very simple, either yes or no.

no debate. I am interested in seeing how many of us think that he is worth DP money

Stryker
12-01-2010, 12:44 AM
Yes, but $500,000 tops.

habstfc
12-01-2010, 12:45 AM
Yes, depending on the dollar amount.

Super
12-01-2010, 12:54 AM
Absolutely YES!

If you look at the league and its DP's, and you look at the individual results and productivity from those guys, you certainly would be hard-pressed to find any player with greater personal contributions to the game than DeRo. That is, in my view, simple fact. The "show me the money" move, and the other stuff, blah, doesn't matter to me at all. Honestly!

Give me a winner on my team - THAT is what I care about. And DeRo, you KNOW he is a winner. It's so a fucking fact, it's not even funny. Seriously! Think about it: 8 years of playoffs before he joined us. 8 fuckin' years, straight! haha! Imagine that! We're now going for play-offs in year 5, and this DeRo Pokerstars.net fuckin' guy, whom we now all of a sudden hate so much, made the play-offs 8 years in a row. 8 in a row? Umm, WOW! So sure, yeah, we want this guy gone!!

He's the problem! Really? He scored half our freakin' goals this season, and he's a midfielder. I mean, come on, please!! Fuck the personality shit. It doesn't give or take away from TFC, so I don't give a shit about that stuff. Nor should you! We REALLY are lucky to have DeRo on this team - and his production (!!!!) for us next season will prove me right.

Seriously!

Super
12-01-2010, 12:55 AM
And with my above message I will say that DeRo should get MORE than DeGuzman. Hey, compare the two and their work this season and let me know that I am wrong ;)

CretanBull
12-01-2010, 12:58 AM
Yes, but $500,000 tops.

If you're willing to use a DP slot on him, why do you care if he makes $1 over DP money or $1,000,000 over DP money?

tfc2007
12-01-2010, 01:11 AM
... because he isnt worth it. He is worth more than an average MLS player, but NOT DP STATUS WORTH.

He is worth 500, but under the rules as they are, its either what hes at, or go to San Jose.

Super
12-01-2010, 01:17 AM
... because he isnt worth it. He is worth more than an average MLS player, but NOT DP STATUS WORTH.

He is worth 500, but under the rules as they are, its either what hes at, or go to San Jose.

He scored half our goals last year. And this guy is not worth DP status? Then name me one other guy who is - please!

CretanBull
12-01-2010, 01:51 AM
^ And named to the MLS Best XI.

CretanBull
12-01-2010, 01:58 AM
... because he isnt worth it. He is worth more than an average MLS player, but NOT DP STATUS WORTH.

He is worth 500, but under the rules as they are, its either what hes at, or go to San Jose.

But once a player is taking up a DP slot, why would you care if he gets paid more than he's worth? To us, it makes no difference if he makes $500,000 or $5,000,000. I understand making cost-effective evaluations on a player who's salary counts against the cap...paying a guy $150k who's worth $85k can make a difference to a team, but once a player is award DP status their salary doesn't matter any more (from the fan's perspective).

Stryker
12-01-2010, 02:21 AM
It matters cause I would imagine TFC have a budget just like anyone else.
If once everything is said and done MLSE make 9 million less player budget, Im sure the teachers pension will demand they stay profitable of say 3 million. They now have 6 million left. Subtract 2.8 million for the cap leaving 3.3 million now subtract what JDG makes over the cap. You're now left with 2.5 millon minus whatever DeRo makes over DP.
Now would you rather pay DeRo $500,000 and have 2.3 millon left to try and attract our third DP or do you want a very happy DeRo making 1.5 millon and leave us with only 1.3 millon to pay our third DP?
The difference DeRo makes could potentially make us lose out on a great player.

Yeah yeah, the numbers are very ballpark but you get the jist.

Oh and lastly DeRo is more than likely to only get worse from here. He's getting older and time will catch up sooner or later.

Shakes McQueen
12-01-2010, 02:24 AM
I wouldn't want to take up a DP slot with DeRo. The guy has been a non-DP playing for non-DP money his entire career, and at his age, it's likely all downhill from here.

If MLSE don't plan to use all of our DP slots for other players, then I would begrudgingly accept using one on DeRo. But if I was in there making the decision? No way.

I'd tell him to shut up and play out the contract he signed, and we will talk about a raise in an extension, if he's still playing up to snuff by then.

- Scott

prizby
12-01-2010, 05:26 AM
It matters cause I would imagine TFC have a budget just like anyone else.
If once everything is said and done MLSE make 9 million less player budget, Im sure the teachers pension will demand they stay profitable of say 3 million. They now have 6 million left. Subtract 2.8 million for the cap leaving 3.3 million now subtract what JDG makes over the cap. You're now left with 2.5 millon minus whatever DeRo makes over DP.
Now would you rather pay DeRo $500,000 and have 2.3 millon left to try and attract our third DP or do you want a very happy DeRo making 1.5 millon and leave us with only 1.3 millon to pay our third DP?
The difference DeRo makes could potentially make us lose out on a great player.

Yeah yeah, the numbers are very ballpark but you get the jist.

Oh and lastly DeRo is more than likely to only get worse from here. He's getting older and time will catch up sooner or later.

yeah i don't think JDG makes only 800k over the dp salary; try 1.4 mil

also 9mil might be low when you consider sponsorship deals, tv revenue, concessions.
than again there is the non playing management that need to be paid

Milky
12-01-2010, 05:47 AM
Even if you kept DeRo at his current salary, then by merely making him a DP we would save at least $40,000.00 worth of cap space, which is enough to cover Nana's salary alone (though I think he deserves a pay raise as well). When guys like Peterson are making $125,000.00 for basically occupying a wide spot then you have to think that guys like DeRo deserve at least $450- $500,000.

Brooker
12-01-2010, 08:04 AM
Even if you kept DeRo at his current salary, then by merely making him a DP we would save at least $40,000.00 worth of cap space, which is enough to cover Nana's salary alone (though I think he deserves a pay raise as well). When guys like Peterson are making $125,000.00 for basically occupying a wide spot then you have to think that guys like DeRo deserve at least $450- $500,000.

Wasting a huge sum of money on a useless tit is a horrible reason to give somebody else a raise.

Cashcleaner
12-01-2010, 08:13 AM
This poll doesn't really make a lot of sense, though. The term "DP money" is a misnomer.

The DP designation has nothing to do with how much you are willing to pay a player. It just stipulates that only $415,000 will count against the cap and the balance of the contract will not. This means we could theoretically pay DeRo $500,000 or more and just take the cap hit instead of using the DP slot.

We don't have to use the DP slot to pay DeRo what he wants - in fact, it might be a waste to do just that as he's not likely to fetch much more than $500,000 and $415,000 still counts against us. In that scenario we'd be losing a DP allocation for only a matter of 85 grand.

Ben - D.O.W.
12-01-2010, 08:28 AM
They now have 6 million left. Subtract 2.8 million for the cap leaving 3.3 million now subtract what JDG makes over the cap. You're now left with 2.5 millon minus whatever DeRo makes over DP.


I'm pretty sure the $2.8 million comes from the league - MLSE pays for anything on top of that for the extra DP wages. Which would leave a lot more for De Ro and a 3rd DP.

Globetrotter
12-01-2010, 08:40 AM
Funny, the guy asks for a yes or no answer, and we get about 20 people that need to say more than either yes or no. The guy even said "no debate, just yes or no".

I'd love to see these people on a true/false exam. Are they writing essays for each answer?? Unbelievable.

[NBF]
12-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Hell, yes you give him a raise:

Reasons:

1. He is the only thing working in Toronto FC.:D
2. He's the captain and if he's the only thing working in TFC, how the fuck do you not pay him and and keep him as a captain?:scarf:
3. Who do you got that is willing to play in Toronto and why if you got better options did you not bring him in during the 2010 season?:drinking:
4. Supply and demand, he's obviously the only TFC player making money from advertising. Even if its from a poker site, is anyone else worth marketing?:rolleyes:
5. He is reliable, consistent, and the team can only rebuild as long as it has corner stones. If you don't want to pay him long term at least pay him for one more year and make him stop complaining about his low salary.:drum:

Cashcleaner
12-01-2010, 08:59 AM
Funny, the guy asks for a yes or no answer, and we get about 20 people that need to say more than either yes or no. The guy even said "no debate, just yes or no".

I'd love to see these people on a true/false exam. Are they writing essays for each answer?? Unbelievable.

Here's a question for you, then. What does "DP Money" mean? What is the exact dollar amount?

The reason why people can't give an arbitrary yes or no is because the question isn't complete.

Globetrotter
12-01-2010, 09:12 AM
^DP money would mean anything above and beyond the league maximum under the salary cap. Is that not well known???

Cashcleaner
12-01-2010, 09:33 AM
^DP money would mean anything above and beyond the league maximum under the salary cap. Is that not well known???

And that amount would be how much now?

In the past it was around $325,000 if I remember correctly, but we haven't heard much about it for a while. For all we know, it could be no longer in place next year.

phonzo
12-01-2010, 09:39 AM
I knew that's what we were missing...a poll!

Thanks Prizby.

Chevy
12-01-2010, 09:47 AM
I wouldn't want to take up a DP slot with DeRo. The guy has been a non-DP playing for non-DP money his entire career, and at his age, it's likely all downhill from here.

If MLSE don't plan to use all of our DP slots for other players, then I would begrudgingly accept using one on DeRo. But if I was in there making the decision? No way.

I'd tell him to shut up and play out the contract he signed, and we will talk about a raise in an extension, if he's still playing up to snuff by then.

- Scott

This is the logical approach. Why handcuff the organization by giving him a DP designation? If the club knows definitively that they won't use all three, give him a modest raise to DP status that will reduce his cap hit.

Regardless, DeRo ain't looking for a modest raise, or even one to $600k. He wants "close to DeGuzman money". Said it himself after the cheque signing incident.

ManUtd4ever
12-01-2010, 09:53 AM
I believe it makes more sense to give DeRo a moderate raise. I would prefer a 315K cap hit as opposed to 450K which would provide the fiscal flexibility to sign an additional solid MLS caliber player...

Milky
12-01-2010, 09:57 AM
Globetrotter, stop debating on the internet! The man asked for a simple yes or no. ;)

As for DeRo wanting what Guzi (my Germanized nickname for JDG) makes, tuff nuts. He signed a contract and that's the end of it. Let him walk in two years if he wants to, I guarentee you he doesn't make what Guzi makes at any other club in MLS (or even the world). I'd give him a moderate raise if he wants, and I'd even give him the status mark of making him a Designated Player, but anything beyond that is too much.

One thing I will say, though, is that one inherent problem with the DP in this league is that it puts teammates on a significantly higher pay scale than others which, as you can see, leads to problems in the dressing room. Perhaps the MLS need to rethink their pay structure system?

DangerRed
12-01-2010, 09:57 AM
I set out my reasons in another thread, so I won't repeat here, but the answer is no. Very clearly, no.

reggie
12-01-2010, 09:57 AM
is the cap hit 250 or 315?
either way i would give him a 1 yr dp at 750k

Roogsy
12-01-2010, 10:07 AM
I believe it makes more sense to give DeRo a moderate raise. I would prefer a 315K cap hit as opposed to 450K which would provide the fiscal flexibility to sign an additional solid MLS caliber player...


Someone finally looking at the cold logic of this issue rather than the emotion.

DangerRed
12-01-2010, 10:09 AM
Someone finally looking at the cold logic of this issue rather than the emotion.

Coming from you, that's really too funny.

__wowza
12-01-2010, 10:20 AM
I believe it makes more sense to give DeRo a moderate raise. I would prefer a 315K cap hit as opposed to 450K which would provide the fiscal flexibility to sign an additional solid MLS caliber player...

i know, another thread for this.. but really.. DP slots should be also used to sign players outside of salary cap. this would essentially mean that the league would be paying for two claimed players on any team regards of if they're making over the cap.

i know, it'll never happen and that's not why it was created.. but still..

Roogsy
12-01-2010, 10:34 AM
Coming from you, that's really too funny.

The ladies do love my sense of humour.

DangerRed
12-01-2010, 10:37 AM
The ladies do love my sense of humour.

Glad to know you realize I'm just taking the piss. I'm sure you're a good guy. You're just horribly wrong on this issue. :D

Roogsy
12-01-2010, 10:41 AM
My wife tells me I am wrong all the time.

I don't believe her either. :D

razor787
12-01-2010, 10:43 AM
I dont think this is as simple as a yes or a no. We need a DP striker. IMO our 3 DP's should be used as 1st- Striker 2nd- Attacking Mid 3rd- Defensive Mid.

If we had another couple years with DeGuzman, then I would say to go for it. Having DeGuz, and a striker for 3 years, then yes, put DeRo as our 3rd DP. But with DeRo being up there in age, I dont see it worth it putting our DP spot on someone that will likely be retireing in a couple years, when our other DP will likely not be renewed, we would be losing both our DP's at around the same time.

We only have 2 left, so I think we should use them wisely, instead of sticking one one DeRo. If we get a great striker DP, then I would be alright with sticking DeRo on a 1 year, MAYBE 2 year DP contract. The striker needs to be signed first, since it would be based on who that is.

Roogsy
12-01-2010, 10:48 AM
The truth is having JDG using up a DP spot is really inhibiting our ability to build this club. Regardless of whether I am biased towards DeRo or not, I can't imagine anyone believes it is a better idea to build around JDG than it would be to build around DeRo at least for the next couple of years.

Gazza
12-01-2010, 10:59 AM
We're not talented enough to let our best offensive player go.

He's been consistently one of the better players in the league since he entered the MLS. Give him his money and build around him.

Although, if he makes another gesture like his cheque signing blunder, i have a 12 dollar beer with his name on it if he comes over to my section.

JonO
12-01-2010, 11:16 AM
I believe it makes more sense to give DeRo a moderate raise. I would prefer a 315K cap hit as opposed to 450K which would provide the fiscal flexibility to sign an additional solid MLS caliber player...
This is my thinking as well. Realisitically, they can't have DeRo + 3 DPs and still fit a team under the cap. So for the purpose of cap space, DeRo is effectively a DP already. Might as well make it official.

Obviously, though, there are a lot of variables we don't know (i.e. how much does he want and how long a contract is he looking for), so the decision is not black and white...

trane
12-01-2010, 11:22 AM
Were is the I will leave that decision to the GM and Manager whomever they may be option.


I would bring over Balotelli, De Rossi and Nesta, but guess what?

razor787
12-01-2010, 11:30 AM
We're not talented enough to let our best offensive player go.

He's been consistently one of the better players in the league since he entered the MLS. Give him his money and build around him.

Although, if he makes another gesture like his cheque signing blunder, i have a 12 dollar beer with his name on it if he comes over to my section.

Building around him would be a terrible move imo. Being 32, he only has 1 or two seasons left. He was on a downward slope at the last half of last season, so he may not even have that god of a season in 2011.

Building around Dero is the wrong move, as is building around Julian. We need to bring in a DP striker that we can keep for more then just 2 years, and build around him.

__wowza
12-01-2010, 01:27 PM
The truth is having JDG using up a DP spot is really inhibiting our ability to build this club. Regardless of whether I am biased towards DeRo or not, I can't imagine anyone believes it is a better idea to build around JDG than it would be to build around DeRo at least for the next couple of years.

what people really, really don't get is that if we bought out his contract, it wouldn't count towards the salary cap. it's like one of those times where you picked up something from a take-out place and you say to yourself "this food fucking sucks but i'll eat it because i paid for it!"

TheKing7
12-01-2010, 04:44 PM
Frei > Dero

T0R0NT0 FC
12-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Will never be worth it.

LesH
12-01-2010, 06:35 PM
And with my above message I will say that DeRo should get MORE than DeGuzman. Hey, compare the two and their work this season and let me know that I am wrong ;)

It's a nonsense comparing the salary of Dero and Deguz, because Deguz signing is the worst deal in the short history of TFC (followed by Mista's).
I just can't have enough words to say what a horrible deal is $%#DR@@#$$!!!:(:(:(

Looking at what they contribute to the team, I would pay Deguz $350,000 and Dero $700,000.

LesH
12-01-2010, 06:42 PM
It matters cause I would imagine TFC have a budget just like anyone else.
If once everything is said and done MLSE make 9 million less player budget, Im sure the teachers pension will demand they stay profitable of say 3 million. They now have 6 million left. Subtract 2.8 million for the cap leaving 3.3 million now subtract what JDG makes over the cap. You're now left with 2.5 millon minus whatever DeRo makes over DP.
Now would you rather pay DeRo $500,000 and have 2.3 millon left to try and attract our third DP or do you want a very happy DeRo making 1.5 millon and leave us with only 1.3 millon to pay our third DP?
The difference DeRo makes could potentially make us lose out on a great player.

Yeah yeah, the numbers are very ballpark but you get the jist.

Oh and lastly DeRo is more than likely to only get worse from here. He's getting older and time will catch up sooner or later.


+1 million. THIS!
I would pay Dero $700,000 tops, then besides Deguz, which we need to bear and suffer because of him 1 more year, we can add a third DP, with a salary a bit bigger than Deguz's, maybe 2 million.

But they need to make sure to sign a DP contract with Dero just for a year!

LesH
12-01-2010, 06:48 PM
This is the logical approach. Why handcuff the organization by giving him a DP designation? If the club knows definitively that they won't use all three, give him a modest raise to DP status that will reduce his cap hit.

Regardless, DeRo ain't looking for a modest raise, or even one to $600k. He wants "close to DeGuzman money". Said it himself after the cheque signing incident.


If he really wants something close to the Deguz's pay, he's out of his freakin' mind! :facepalm:

jazzy
12-01-2010, 06:58 PM
This poll doesn't really make a lot of sense, though. The term "DP money" is a misnomer.

The DP designation has nothing to do with how much you are willing to pay a player. It just stipulates that only $415,000 will count against the cap and the balance of the contract will not. This means we could theoretically pay DeRo $500,000 or more and just take the cap hit instead of using the DP slot.

We don't have to use the DP slot to pay DeRo what he wants - in fact, it might be a waste to do just that as he's not likely to fetch much more than $500,000 and $415,000 still counts against us. In that scenario we'd be losing a DP allocation for only a matter of 85 grand.

I voted yes, but if this is the case it makes good sense,...I just believe he needs to paid according to his #1 production status....Won't other players understand that and maybe try accordingly?

TFCtoMUFC
12-01-2010, 08:13 PM
Building around him would be a terrible move imo. Being 32, he only has 1 or two seasons left. He was on a downward slope at the last half of last season, so he may not even have that god of a season in 2011.

Building around Dero is the wrong move, as is building around Julian. We need to bring in a DP striker that we can keep for more then just 2 years, and build around him.

*bing* *bing* *bing* We have a winner. We SHOULD start rebuilding and not tearing down wallpaper to replace it with prettier wallpaper. Trade DeRo, cash in our chips. Let DeGuzman go and wait until we have a competitive team, THEN sign a DP that can score.

LesH
12-01-2010, 08:19 PM
^ Yes, it's true of course that right now we don't have anyone to build around.

TFCtoMUFC
12-01-2010, 08:28 PM
^ Yes, it's true of course that right now we don't have anyone to build around.

Attakora and Frei are worth building around but they will be headed for greener pastures soon.

razor787
12-01-2010, 08:44 PM
*bing* *bing* *bing* We have a winner. We SHOULD start rebuilding and not tearing down wallpaper to replace it with prettier wallpaper. Trade DeRo, cash in our chips. Let DeGuzman go and wait until we have a competitive team, THEN sign a DP that can score.

Im not necessarilly saying to can DeRo and Julian. That is a possibility, and if we come across better players, than yes do it for sure. But if I were in charge, I would keep Julian this year, keep DeRo on his current contract, and bring in a DP striker, and a DP Attacking Midfielder (would play 2 attacking mids until I release DeRo) and then get a DP Defensive mid to replace Deguzman the next year (or keep julian based on his play in 2011)

No reason to cut them loose now. DP's arent easy to get, so its better to get people that you know you can build around, before you cut loose your more talented players.


Attakora and Frei are worth building around but they will be headed for greener pastures soon.

I disagree with that. Defenders and goal keepers are not people you want to build around. Building around defensive players brings foreward a defensive team. Nobody liked that when preki was here, so that is the last thing we need.

ArmenJBX
12-01-2010, 09:28 PM
He's denied the move to San Jose when asked...


Dwayne De Rosario (http://www.facebook.com/dwaynederosario) lol, nah man. Is that the word on the street?

canadian_bhoy
12-01-2010, 10:01 PM
No.
DeRo is TFCs best player. He deserves to make the top salary for a non-DP player.
But just because TFC signed duds for DPs and overpaid a slew of other players doesn't mean DeRo should get more.

Chevy
12-01-2010, 10:12 PM
If he really wants something close to the Deguz's pay, he's out of his freakin' mind! :facepalm:

He said it in a TV interview after the cheque-signing BS. The question was "do you want to be the highest paid player?" and the answer was "close to it."

Consider JDG makes $1.7 and Mista would have made 900k for a full season, I would consider "close" as being $1m at the VERY least.

Wull
12-01-2010, 10:21 PM
Looking at what they contribute to the team, I would pay Deguz $350,000 and Dero $700,000.

Given how he's played for us I wouldn't even pay him $60k let alone $350k. I'd like a DM that tackles and breaks up attacks please

DOMIN8R
12-02-2010, 05:23 AM
With Alvaro Saborio and Fredy Montero getting their Designated Player paydays this week, the attention will turn to some other top players who could be candidates for big money upgrade.

Whether you're talking MLS Cup-winning striker Omar Cummings, or Toronto FC star Dwayne DeRosario, there are a a handful of MLS standouts who can make good cases for deserving the boost in pay.


http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2010/12/who-should-be-next-to-get-paid.html#more

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 07:31 AM
The truth is having JDG using up a DP spot is really inhibiting our ability to build this club. Regardless of whether I am biased towards DeRo or not, I can't imagine anyone believes it is a better idea to build around JDG than it would be to build around DeRo at least for the next couple of years.

I certainly agree with this wholeheartedly.

- Scott

Waggy
12-02-2010, 12:33 PM
I certainly agree with this wholeheartedly.

- Scott

How does JDG not being worthy of DP status make Dero worthy of DP status? They're 2 separate issues. We see bad contracts in sports all the time, it doesn't set the market. Memphis Griz gave Conley 50 million dollars last month, didn't mean every PG got a massive raise just cause 1 crappy pg got overpaid. Cromartie got PAID by San Diego, but when Revis tried to use that as precedent, he got shut down by the Jets. I vote for neither JDG or Dero as DP's. You don't solve 1 mistake by making another. Trust, I know lol.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 12:44 PM
How does JDG not being worthy of DP status make Dero worthy of DP status? They're 2 separate issues. We see bad contracts in sports all the time, it doesn't set the market. Memphis Griz gave Conley 50 million dollars last month, didn't mean every PG got a massive raise just cause 1 crappy pg got overpaid. Cromartie got PAID by San Diego, but when Revis tried to use that as precedent, he got shut down by the Jets. I vote for neither JDG or Dero as DP's. You don't solve 1 mistake by making another. Trust, I know lol.

I wasn't agreeing that DeRo was worth DP money - I was agreeing that JDG isn't worth building a team around.

The fact that JDG is grossly overpaid, is not an argument for tearing up DeRo's current deal, and overpaying him.

- Scott

Waggy
12-02-2010, 12:57 PM
I wasn't agreeing that DeRo was worth DP money - I was agreeing that JDG isn't worth building a team around.

The fact that JDG is grossly overpaid, is not an argument for tearing up DeRo's current deal, and overpaying him.

- Scott

Sorry, misunderstood the argument. My bad

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 01:29 PM
I wasn't agreeing that DeRo was worth DP money - I was agreeing that JDG isn't worth building a team around.

The fact that JDG is grossly overpaid, is not an argument for tearing up DeRo's current deal, and overpaying him.

- Scott


LOL! At least I understood you Scott.

On a related note...I don't think I will ever understand the lot of you saying that giving DeRo more money would be overpaying him. In ANY league let alone this league, I'd like to see someone put a value on a 17 goal-scorer.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 01:36 PM
In ANY league let alone this league, I'd like to see someone put a value on a 17 goal-scorer.

Different circumstances, in a league with way more salary rules than pretty much any other league, on a continent with a far different culture regarding how sports contracts should work.

If DeRo wants to roll the dice on the international market, and have the club sell him, then be my guest. Of course if that was an option, I suspect he would have taken it long ago (and in fact he did, for a brief stint early in his career).

- Scott

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 02:03 PM
Different circumstances, in a league with way more salary rules than pretty much any other league, on a continent with a far different culture regarding how sports contracts should work.

If DeRo wants to roll the dice on the international market, and have the club sell him, then be my guest. Of course if that was an option, I suspect he would have taken it long ago (and in fact he did, for a brief stint early in his career).

- Scott

I am not talking about moving to another league, I am talking about fair value within a team and within a league, if you have a 17 goal-scorer, 4 time cup-winner, multiple MVPs in various competitions who still seems at the top of his game (despite all the talk about a decline nobody seems to be able to point to any evidence of such yet), what would be his fair value? That is all I am asking. If you think with all that said, his fair value is currently what he is being paid, so be it. Personally, I think it's more for no other reason than on a comparative basis with other players in the league and what they did for their teams. Not many players score near-50% of the goals of their team and even less with the resume that he has. So how all that can be undone with "he is 32" or my favourite "he is almost 33" and pretty much nothing more is beyond me.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 02:21 PM
I am not talking about moving to another league, I am talking about fair value within a team and within a league, if you have a 17 goal-scorer, 4 time cup-winner, multiple MVPs in various competitions who still seems at the top of his game (despite all the talk about a decline nobody seems to be able to point to any evidence of such yet), what would be his fair value? That is all I am asking. If you think with all that said, his fair value is currently what he is being paid, so be it. Personally, I think it's more for no other reason than on a comparative basis with other players in the league and what they did for their teams. Not many players score near-50% of the goals of their team and even less with the resume that he has. So how all that can be undone with "he is 32" or my favourite "he is almost 33" and pretty much nothing more is beyond me.

"Fair value" doesn't enter into the equation. If you think you're being paid unfairly, then your time to flex your muscles and grab what you are worth is when you are out of contract. Once a contract is signed, that's the end of it. That's more or less how North American sports works - even the cap-less Major League Baseball.

Steve Stamkos scored 50 goals last year, and looks poised to do it again this year, yet he makes $3.75m a season (bonuses included in that number). Stamkos has never skated around the ice screaming "show me the money" after scoring a goal, because he is signed to a contract, and knows that he is going to have significant leverage to push for a huge raise after his current deal is up.

Month to month, year to year performance is irrelevant once you have signed a contract. Your performance only matters when it comes time to sign a new one. That is your window of freedom, to do what you want, to sign where you want, and to ask for whatever you want.

If a player signs a massive contract, then has a really poor year, does the team get to demand a pay decrease? Or do they honour the legal document they signed with that player?

We've had this discussion a million times in the past. If DeRo wanted more money than he signed for, he had the option to play out his existing deal from Houston, then twist TFC's arm into making him a DP, or he would walk. If he wasn't willing to do that, then don't be surprised if you have limited leverage.

If DeRo wanted what he considered "fair value", then he had the option to hold out for "fair value", instead of signing a LONG TERM EXTENSION.

Particularly if he's not even close to being "over the hill", as you clearly believe. If he didn't want to take that chance, and wanted to ink an extension right away, then that was his choice to make, and he needs to live with that.

If he wanted to show how great he was, and then get DP money, then don't sign a FOUR YEAR deal. If he wanted to get DP money from the get go, then don't sign an extension at all, let alone a four year one.

Comparing his salary to other players of comparable ability is the height of irrelevance. Such comparisons are only relevant to his agent, during a contract negotiation. Once the ink is dry, you play the game.

If your subsequent play exceeds your salary, then so be it. If it fails to meet the expectations of your salary, then bully for you. That's how a contract works.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 02:26 PM
And for the record - no, I am not interested in having THAT discussion again, haha.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 02:29 PM
"Fair value" doesn't enter into the equation. If you think you're being paid unfairly, then your time to flex your muscles and grab what you are worth is when you are out of contract. Once a contract is signed, that's the end of it. That's more or less how North American sports works - even the cap-less Major League Baseball.

I disagree. Contracts get renegotiated all the time. Especially one where the player is in an option year. If this was after 1 year of a 3 year guaranteed deal, I might be more inclined to side with you. But this is after 2 years of the guaranteed portion (2 years where he shattered every TFC record and actually won something for us for once) and we are into his option years and he is saying you don't treat a star player like this by picking up his option years on the cheap and not renegotiate a fairer deal.

The question still stands Scott. Regardless of the contract situation, is what he is being paid "fair value" in comparison with the league? That is all. If you say yes, then like I said, so be it. If not, then as much as we ask that DeRo honour his contract I would think we'd also expect our own team to behave honourably and not pick up the option. I am quite sure that DeRo would be able to find employment elsewhere if they're not willing to negotiate a better deal and all the DeRo haters can be happy that he is scoring a dozen goals for some other team.

Waggy
12-02-2010, 02:45 PM
I disagree. Contracts get renegotiated all the time. Especially one where the player is in an option year. If this was after 1 year of a 3 year guaranteed deal, I might be more inclined to side with you. But this is after 2 years of the guaranteed portion (2 years where he shattered every TFC record and actually won something for us for once) and we are into his option years and he is saying you don't treat a star player like this by picking up his option years on the cheap and not renegotiate a fairer deal.

The question still stands Scott. Regardless of the contract situation, is what he is being paid "fair value" in comparison with the league? That is all. If you say yes, then like I said, so be it. If not, then as much as we ask that DeRo honour his contract I would think we'd also expect our own team to behave honourably and not pick up the option. I am quite sure that DeRo would be able to find employment elsewhere if they're not willing to negotiate a better deal and all the DeRo haters can be happy that he is scoring a dozen goals for some other team.


My issue with this poll is it's based on money. Yes, Dero might deserve more money. If TFC can find some loopholes to give him more I'm all for it, its not like its out of my wallet. What I'm not for is giving him one of the 2 (or 3) designated player slots. We NEED to do better with those spots, especially since Dero already plays for us. It's not like we cant get 2 or 3 good DPs AND have Dero. Dero getting a raise on the books though turns 2 potentially top level MLS players into 1. Just so Dero can feel better and make an extra 100k. I don't begrudge him wanting the cash, I just expect my club to look out for its own interests first and the players interests second, not vice versa.

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 02:46 PM
If not, then as much as we ask that DeRo honour his contract I would think we'd also expect our own team to behave honourably and not pick up the option. I am quite sure that DeRo would be able to find employment elsewhere if they're not willing to negotiate a better deal and all the DeRo haters can be happy that he is scoring a dozen goals for some other team.

Hoping that the team is "honourable" is not the same as expecting an athlete to "honour" their legally binding contract.

And how is it less honourable for the team to pick up an option year that they negotiated for? If DeRo wanted a player option, then he should have negotiated for it. And what about the "honour" of playing out your agreed upon contract?

I just don't get this idea that we should all sympathize with DeRo because he's playing higher than his pay grade might dictate, despite still making the most he has ever made in his career, in a contract he negotiated and signed for.

"Honour" doesn't enter into it. If DeRo thinks he is worth more, then he should negotiate for more in his next contract.

You've often criticized folks here for arguing based on emotional impulses, but talking about wanting the club to be "honourable" is the definition of emotional - particularly when your concept of "honour" in this context is definitely up for debate.

No other North American sports league operates under these kinds of terms - especially salary capped ones.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 02:48 PM
I disagree. Contracts get renegotiated all the time. Especially one where the player is in an option year.

On this continent? Absolutely not. It's extremely uncommon. It does happen, but it is far from the norm.

However, contracts may get renegotiated if it's a PLAYER option, and the player wants to sign an extension for more money. Why? Because in that case, the player has leverage.

Or the team might choose to renegotiate despite having an option, because they want to lock up said player even longer.

Outside of those scenarios, it's rare.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 02:49 PM
In my opinion, keeping your best player happy is in the team's best interest. I have always believed that for all my teams in all sports. And in fact, part of my job has to do with servicing professional athletes to make sure they are satisfied. I don't particularly understand the accusations of bias against me on this issue because it's not like I am creating an exception for DeRo that I would not be consistent on elsewhere. Is DeRo or is he not the best player on this team? Yes? Then keep him happy. No? Then don't pay him and maybe even ship him out. End of story. All this other stuff is irrelevant.

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 02:50 PM
No other North American sports league operates under these kinds of terms - especially salary capped ones.

So you're saying no other team renegotiates with players who have exceeded expectations instead of picking up their option years?

Shakes McQueen
12-02-2010, 02:54 PM
So you're saying no other team renegotiates with players who have exceeded expectations instead of picking up their option years?

See my follow up post.

- Scott

Brooker
12-02-2010, 05:44 PM
So you're saying no other team renegotiates with players who have exceeded expectations instead of picking up their option years?

you're not saying Dwayne DeRosario exceeded expectations this year.... are you?

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 05:45 PM
17 goals isn't "exceeding expectations"???

trane
12-02-2010, 06:04 PM
De Ro was not perfect, but he clearly produced, and I would say he produced at a DP level. Saying productions should not be an issue.

Smokecell
12-02-2010, 09:35 PM
Roogsy I assume by your same argument that you'd make Wondo a DP? He did afterall outscore dero, scored a larger percentage of his team's goals....and actually lead them to the playoffs.

Plus the guy made 48k this year and not once did he make any cheque signing gesture....food for thought.

In fact to lay it out for you...

MLS Goals
Wondo - 18
DeRo- 15

Game Winning Goals

Wondo - 9
DeRo - 5

% of Team Goals Scored

Wondo - 18/34 (53%)
DeRo - 15/33 (45%)

2010 Salary

Wondo - 48k
Dero - 400k

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 09:39 PM
Please don't make me go back to the Wondo facts that completely blow the comparison out of the water. One good year and no MVPs or Cups is exactly why Wondo at 28 is being paid what he's being paid.

And your comment about the cheque-signing gesture proves exactly my point. You guys can't get past that issue and fail to look at what really matters on the pitch, production. You have to make it about the gesture because the impact DeRo has on the pitch is irrefutable.

If Wondo would've made that gesture, it wouldn't have made anyone angry, it would've made people laugh at him. A guy who hasn't scored more than 10 goals collectively in all his career (as a forward!) demanding more money. Riiiiiiiight.... :rolleyes:

Smokecell
12-02-2010, 09:46 PM
And your comment about the cheque-signing gesture proves exactly my point. You guys can't get past that issue and fail to look at what really matters on the pitch, production. You have to make it about the gesture because the impact DeRo has on the pitch is irrefutable.


Recheck my post, the numbers speak for themself

AL-MO
12-02-2010, 09:53 PM
just checked the results of the poll....101/101 !!!!

razor787
12-02-2010, 10:01 PM
I have never seen a poll this close. Im actually shocked.

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 11:48 PM
Recheck my post, the numbers speak for themself

It's a classic case of selective use of data. Is there a reason you chose not to use Wondo's stats for previous years? Could it be it is because he has had a lackluster career and it is more likely 2010 was an anomaly or do believe his whole career should be ignored in favour of 1 year? In finance the best market players are considered to be the ones that show a good track record over several years. There is always some guy who shoots the lights out 1 year and then goes back to their usual form. Are you saying that won't happen to Wondo's?

prizby
12-02-2010, 11:52 PM
I am glad I started this. Roogsy was basically (before) voicing his opinion on the lone and based on what I saw in other threads it looked like the world against Roogsy. The vote, I am surprised by, but what I am happy to see, is there are other people that have made a bit of a stand for DeRo's case.

I thought Roogsy was on his own and being completely irrational. Now I can see it just a tiny weenie bit irrational :p

Roogsy
12-02-2010, 11:55 PM
LOL :lol:

Roogsy
12-03-2010, 12:05 AM
BTW if the Montero situation shows us anything it's that if a team feels confident that a player will continue to produce they will reward the player with a deserving contract. Do you think if Wondo puts up another spectacular year he won't be demanding big money? We have a player here who wants to be here (very rare) and produces more than he is expected and our response is to support the FO screwing him?

razor787
12-03-2010, 12:48 AM
Dero is simply too old to warrant that money, and even more importantly the DP spot. I dont deny that he played great this, and last season, but you need to look towards the future.

If we didnt have DeGuzman, I would say yes. But we cant have him taking up a much needed DP spot.

prizby
12-03-2010, 01:21 AM
BTW if the Montero situation shows us anything it's that if a team feels confident that a player will continue to produce they will reward the player with a deserving contract. Do you think if Wondo puts up another spectacular year he won't be demanding big money? We have a player here who wants to be here (very rare) and produces more than he is expected and our response is to support the FO screwing him?

this is where i feel a bit of personal bias ruins your arguement. I remember in another thread you said risk management was your speciality. So lets use your speciality right now?

First Question: Would you feel a salary at $750,000 a year would be reasonable price for DeRo. It would be nearly an 80% raise?

I am going to assume you say yes.

Second Question: How many goals would you expect of your designated player in DeRo?

My assumption is 15 would be about right in your eyes.

Now lets calculate the risk.

Looking at how characteristically most players play at 33, what are the chances that DeRo strikes:

18 goals?
15-17 goals?
12-14 goals?
10-11 goals?
single digit goals?

For me, my answer would be 4%, 18%, 43%, 20%, and 15% respectively

If 15 goals is the standard for a DP DeRo, than the risk would be that 78% of the time, he doesn't meet that standard. Thus, the fiscal responsible thing for next year is no to DP money.


In the end, I think this is a good reason why players need to sign a reasonable base salary and have heavy, heavy performance based bonuses for stuff. $10,000 a goal; $5000 extra if it is a GWG, $2500 extra if it is a GTG in hte last 5-10 minuters...etc.

Players should be paid for how they are currently playing, not how they did last season (I am not going to argue against DeRo should have probably been paid more for what he produced this season because in all truth, he should have; especially when Mista made around as much as he did for being their only half the season).

razor787
12-03-2010, 01:34 AM
1st- Where did you get those statistics? Im guessing you just pulled those out of your ass?

2nd- With the salary cap, MLS doesnt allow bonus' from what I know. There would be no way to regulate things, to prevent teams from going over the cap.

Shakes McQueen
12-03-2010, 06:49 AM
Tell you what - let's give DeRo whatever money he wants, on the condition that the team gets to cut his salary accordingly when his production starts to drop off, even if he's still under contract. It's the honourable thing to do.

If it's reasonable to give a player under contract a raise when he meets or exceeds expectations, then it's reasonable to cut his salary when he no longer is, right?

If we are going to give the guy his second mid-contract raise in three years based on performance, then it should be a two-way street.

- Scott

razor787
12-03-2010, 07:12 AM
I wish contracts worked like that. Might make players like DeGuzman step up their game, knowing they will lose money if they go into a slump

Chevy
12-03-2010, 09:39 AM
Please don't make me go back to the Wondo facts that completely blow the comparison out of the water. One good year and no MVPs or Cups is exactly why Wondo at 28 is being paid what he's being paid.

And your comment about the cheque-signing gesture proves exactly my point. You guys can't get past that issue and fail to look at what really matters on the pitch, production. You have to make it about the gesture because the impact DeRo has on the pitch is irrefutable.

If Wondo would've made that gesture, it wouldn't have made anyone angry, it would've made people laugh at him. A guy who hasn't scored more than 10 goals collectively in all his career (as a forward!) demanding more money. Riiiiiiiight.... :rolleyes:


The cheque-signing gesture isn't the true focus, it's simply the action that launched this dero/salary/dp debate. Based on the 50/50 poll results, a debate that ain't gonna go away anytime soon.

v00d00daddy
12-03-2010, 10:04 AM
there is no denying that dero has produced for tfc in terms of goals....but to suggest that he deserves more money because he's won us a trophy and broken tfc records is funny.

that should not enter the equation at all.

I don't want him getting more money simply on principle. he contributed goals like a captain and leader but that's where it ends. he doesn't make his teammates better, doesn't share the ball enough, doesn't play within a system and showed his character with the cheque incident.

few pros vs lots of cons IMO

Roogsy
12-03-2010, 10:17 AM
this is where i feel a bit of personal bias ruins your arguement. I remember in another thread you said risk management was your speciality. So lets use your speciality right now?

First Question: Would you feel a salary at $750,000 a year would be reasonable price for DeRo. It would be nearly an 80% raise?

I am going to assume you say yes.

Second Question: How many goals would you expect of your designated player in DeRo?

My assumption is 15 would be about right in your eyes.

Actually even I would admit that the number of goals DeRo scored this year was probably an exception. My expectations of a DP rests on their position and their contribution. For example, a DP striker I would expect would compete for the golden boot. Somewhere between 15 and 20 goals. A DP AM I would expect less goals and more assists. So my expectations of DeRo would also depend on what Cochrane brings in as an offensive threat, hopefully the striker we've never had.


Now lets calculate the risk.

Looking at how characteristically most players play at 33, what are the chances that DeRo strikes:

18 goals?
15-17 goals?
12-14 goals?
10-11 goals?
single digit goals?

For me, my answer would be 4%, 18%, 43%, 20%, and 15% respectively

If 15 goals is the standard for a DP DeRo, than the risk would be that 78% of the time, he doesn't meet that standard. Thus, the fiscal responsible thing for next year is no to DP money.

I am interested in the math here. Can you tell me how you arrived at these numbers?


In the end, I think this is a good reason why players need to sign a reasonable base salary and have heavy, heavy performance based bonuses for stuff. $10,000 a goal; $5000 extra if it is a GWG, $2500 extra if it is a GTG in hte last 5-10 minuters...etc.

I absolutely agree in performance-based bonuses. Shoot...I'd even agree that DeRo's contract now remain as is but that performance-based incentives be included. Doesn't that arrive at a good compromise for both sides here? His base-salary doesn't change and if he doesn't reach targets, the team doesn't pay more. But if he does exceed expectations that he receive fair compensation? Isn't that fair? I am not arguing a DP slot for him without taking into account the risks. There are risks, I never said they didn't exist, but I think they are mitigated and manageable. People have been pointing to some type of excessive risk about his age without any supporting evidence and thus I believe they have overweighted the risk factors and underweighted the reward aspect of the risk/reward analysis.


Players should be paid for how they are currently playing, not how they did last season (I am not going to argue against DeRo should have probably been paid more for what he produced this season because in all truth, he should have; especially when Mista made around as much as he did for being their only half the season).

If only this were possible. I am sure every team on the planet in every sport has been trying to figure out how to get this done. So you don't get stuck with the Ryan Leafs of the world. However, at the moment the best way to project immediate future performance is near-term historical performance. DeRo has just given us not one, but two stellar years and arguably two-MVP years. It can be argued that without him we would still have no trophies. Yes, we did not get in the playoffs, and I would argue it's because even your best star can't do all your work for you in a long season but last year he helped us almost do it. So with all that near-term data, what would be your best projection in terms of DeRo's performance next season? That we will see a substandard year? Based on what?

What gets me is all these arguments against DeRo getting a DP slot when in fact it actually HELPS our salary cap situation and HELPS us get better talent by freeing up space. Him maxing out the cap space without the DP slot actually gives us less room under the cap and therefore less room to sign more talent and yet we cut off our nose to spite our face. The money doesn't come out of your own pockets so why the resistance in supporting one of the ONLY players that have shown up for TFC these past two dreadful seasons? Typical Toronto, we love Dan Gargan who I wouldn't even call an average player and would raise a ruckus if he was shipped out of town, but if DeRo goes a good portion of the people on this board would say good riddance. It's mind-blowing. I am beginning to think these people weren't around in the summer of 2007 when we couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of 20s. So we want to take a blind gamble on some other player who we won't know for sure if he can or cannot score on a dreadfully inept TFC team? I'd like to see Wondo throw up 19 goals on a pathetic TFC team. Shoot, I'd like to see him throw up 10 and see where all the Wondo-lovers wind up hiding. Not to mention, to bring anyone into this team we are going to have to significantly overpay him because nobody (despite what TFC tells you) wants to come here. Tell me guys, how much do you think it will cost us to bring in a proven goal scorer that we are guaranteed to get at least a dozen goals? If there is one question answered out of this whole shitshow, I really hope this one gets answered. Because only guys who have bounced around and are trying to get their 2nd shot at the pros will come here. And if they succeed...guess what, they will leave as soon as they can for bigger and better pastures. Here we have a player who wants to be here, who wants to end his career here and the lot of you want to ship him out because 17 goals are all nice and good, but we're prissy little princesses that didn't like some gesture that wasn't even directed at us. Geez.

I am done with this thread. Suffice to say I have made my point far too many times over. Keep thinking that it's some personal bias that makes me feel this way, I know I have cold hard factual data that backs me up and the only thing I have seen from DeRo-haters is unsubstantiated speculations based on his age and a ubersensitivity to mocking gestures, nothing more. On any other team, a guy like DeRo gets his contract. It figures in Toronto, a place where we love to hate our stars and praise average athletes, we decide to support a cheap front office that fucks up it's DP slots, gives a combined $2.7mill to useless players but now decides to cheap out on a player who has PROVEN to produce. I am tired of this discussion. Ship him off to San Jose where he can get another shot at the MLS Cup and we can wollow with another year in the basement of the league. Ooooooh...maybe we can even dream of another scoreless summer and a run at our own records of ineptitude? A man can dream can't he?

Shakes McQueen
12-03-2010, 10:24 AM
Oy, the size of the paragraphs are growing beyond what my tiny man-brain can process.

- Scott

Roogsy
12-03-2010, 10:25 AM
Are you starting to look like your avatar? :D

Section 117
12-03-2010, 10:33 AM
Roogsy Dero makes over 450K in the MLS how is not being compensated fairly realitive to everyone else. i don't have the time nor the patience to look this up. But I am almost guarentee that he makes more the almost all of players that lead their team in scoring.

JPA is the only player that Dero made less than in the top fifteen goal scorers in the league. So how he is not compensated for his worth??? Unfortunately, his handlers did not get him a better contract.

To answer your question you can find probably two players to replace Dero and score 10 goals each with the over 450k TFC is paying him. It is possible to repalce him would it be easy who knows.

Also, giving him a DP spot helps the salry cap but in actuallity it set a bad precedent within our squad. If he doesn't produce will he give the money back? I highly doubt it and at the end of the day he signed the contract no one put a gun to his head.

Shakes McQueen
12-03-2010, 10:36 AM
Are you starting to look like your avatar? :D

Usually it takes until around 5:00pm. Thanks a lot, Roogsy. :cool:

- Scott

trane
12-03-2010, 11:08 AM
Roogsy, as I said I am neutral on paying De Ro more. He produces, and he produces and is a top attacking player in the league.

But keeping him does not guarantee that we do not continue to be inept. Therefore, keep him or let him go. We need to do way more to be a decent team. Keeping him here at a high cost is not in itself the key to success, and maybe letting him go gives us some flexibility that we do not have.


Now replacing a proven scorer like him will not be easy. So maybe you give him a one year contract, to ensure that we at least have some goals next season. But again that all depends on the directeion new management, whenever that comes, I hope not one week beore the start of the seasons takes over.

Roogsy
12-03-2010, 01:00 PM
This has to be the most evenly split poll in the history of the RPB forums. :lol:

scooter
12-03-2010, 01:40 PM
i we do pay dero dp moneys then jdg has to take a cut so we can bring in one really top notch striker to put us in the playoffs

TFCRegina
12-03-2010, 04:16 PM
I am glad I started this. Roogsy was basically (before) voicing his opinion on the lone and based on what I saw in other threads it looked like the world against Roogsy. The vote, I am surprised by, but what I am happy to see, is there are other people that have made a bit of a stand for DeRo's case.

I thought Roogsy was on his own and being completely irrational. Now I can see it just a tiny weenie bit irrational :p

I believe you started this poll in response to me being an obnoxious asshole in the defense of De Ro. I resent my exclusion from this credit to Roogsy.

Nazzer
12-04-2010, 03:26 AM
Anyone remember the part in Happy Gilmore where the star quarterback comes into Adam Sandler's home and demands a raise because he played good? Well, Sandlers response was to ask if had he played poorly would he have been able to re-negotiate and give him a reduced salary the player said no.

If DeRo wanted to be able to re-negotiate his contract on a yearly basis then he shouldn't have signed a multi year deal?

Can someone please tell me in a understandable way why there is anything else to be added other than that?

Strikers
12-04-2010, 03:28 AM
^^^^^

I believe that was Mr Deeds.

Nazzer
12-04-2010, 03:46 AM
^^^^^

I believe that was Mr Deeds.

Whether or not I fail at remembering my Adam Sandler movies.....

Anyone? It's a simple question?

Pookie
12-04-2010, 10:20 AM
Happy Gilmour was about golf. I'm sure there wasn't a quarterback in it.

I voted no. We have only 3 DP slots and are currently only apparently willing to spend money on 2.

If we pay DeRo DP money, our current DPs will effectively be JDG and DeRo.

The same combo we've had that have been ineffective on team results throughout their tenure at the club.

We need something different.

Smokecell
12-04-2010, 01:44 PM
It's a classic case of selective use of data. Is there a reason you chose not to use Wondo's stats for previous years? Could it be it is because he has had a lackluster career and it is more likely 2010 was an anomaly or do believe his whole career should be ignored in favour of 1 year? In finance the best market players are considered to be the ones that show a good track record over several years. There is always some guy who shoots the lights out 1 year and then goes back to their usual form. Are you saying that won't happen to Wondo's?

Truthfully i could care less what happens to Wondo and in no way would i make him a DP. I just threw that down to discount 2 of your main arguments in scoring a lot of goals (and important ones) and exceeding expectations.

jloome
12-05-2010, 02:40 PM
Actually even I would admit that the number of goals DeRo scored this year was probably an exception. My expectations of a DP rests on their position and their contribution. For example, a DP striker I would expect would compete for the golden boot. Somewhere between 15 and 20 goals. A DP AM I would expect less goals and more assists. So my expectations of DeRo would also depend on what Cochrane brings in as an offensive threat, hopefully the striker we've never had.



I am interested in the math here. Can you tell me how you arrived at these numbers?

I absolutely agree in performance-based bonuses. Shoot...I'd even agree that DeRo's contract now remain as is but that performance-based incentives be included. Doesn't that arrive at a good compromise for both sides here? His base-salary doesn't change and if he doesn't reach targets, the team doesn't pay more. But if he does exceed expectations that he receive fair compensation? Isn't that fair? I am not arguing a DP slot for him without taking into account the risks. There are risks, I never said they didn't exist, but I think they are mitigated and manageable. People have been pointing to some type of excessive risk about his age without any supporting evidence and thus I believe they have overweighted the risk factors and underweighted the reward aspect of the risk/reward analysis.



If only this were possible. I am sure every team on the planet in every sport has been trying to figure out how to get this done. So you don't get stuck with the Ryan Leafs of the world. However, at the moment the best way to project immediate future performance is near-term historical performance. DeRo has just given us not one, but two stellar years and arguably two-MVP years. It can be argued that without him we would still have no trophies. Yes, we did not get in the playoffs, and I would argue it's because even your best star can't do all your work for you in a long season but last year he helped us almost do it. So with all that near-term data, what would be your best projection in terms of DeRo's performance next season? That we will see a substandard year? Based on what?

What gets me is all these arguments against DeRo getting a DP slot when in fact it actually HELPS our salary cap situation and HELPS us get better talent by freeing up space. Him maxing out the cap space without the DP slot actually gives us less room under the cap and therefore less room to sign more talent and yet we cut off our nose to spite our face. The money doesn't come out of your own pockets so why the resistance in supporting one of the ONLY players that have shown up for TFC these past two dreadful seasons? Typical Toronto, we love Dan Gargan who I wouldn't even call an average player and would raise a ruckus if he was shipped out of town, but if DeRo goes a good portion of the people on this board would say good riddance. It's mind-blowing. I am beginning to think these people weren't around in the summer of 2007 when we couldn't score in a whorehouse with a fistful of 20s. So we want to take a blind gamble on some other player who we won't know for sure if he can or cannot score on a dreadfully inept TFC team? I'd like to see Wondo throw up 19 goals on a pathetic TFC team. Shoot, I'd like to see him throw up 10 and see where all the Wondo-lovers wind up hiding. Not to mention, to bring anyone into this team we are going to have to significantly overpay him because nobody (despite what TFC tells you) wants to come here. Tell me guys, how much do you think it will cost us to bring in a proven goal scorer that we are guaranteed to get at least a dozen goals? If there is one question answered out of this whole shitshow, I really hope this one gets answered. Because only guys who have bounced around and are trying to get their 2nd shot at the pros will come here. And if they succeed...guess what, they will leave as soon as they can for bigger and better pastures. Here we have a player who wants to be here, who wants to end his career here and the lot of you want to ship him out because 17 goals are all nice and good, but we're prissy little princesses that didn't like some gesture that wasn't even directed at us. Geez.

I am done with this thread. Suffice to say I have made my point far too many times over. Keep thinking that it's some personal bias that makes me feel this way, I know I have cold hard factual data that backs me up and the only thing I have seen from DeRo-haters is unsubstantiated speculations based on his age and a ubersensitivity to mocking gestures, nothing more. On any other team, a guy like DeRo gets his contract. It figures in Toronto, a place where we love to hate our stars and praise average athletes, we decide to support a cheap front office that fucks up it's DP slots, gives a combined $2.7mill to useless players but now decides to cheap out on a player who has PROVEN to produce. I am tired of this discussion. Ship him off to San Jose where he can get another shot at the MLS Cup and we can wollow with another year in the basement of the league. Ooooooh...maybe we can even dream of another scoreless summer and a run at our own records of ineptitude? A man can dream can't he?

Holy blinded by orthodoxy.

Dude, I think you're a swell guy, but if you think you're supporting your position any more factually than others here, you're ignoring the fact that you're generalizing as much as anyon. Half of what you state is just your opinion. Polls don't come out 50/50 when only one side has all the valid points.

Cold hard data? Everyone here has cold hard data. DeRo had four assists last year. Four assists, from the attacking central midfielder. That's weak. It's also cold, hard data.

Cold hard data? Our central midfielder took four more shots than Wondolowski did to score his 15 goals. So he basically had a worse strike rate than the allegedly unproven striker. In fact, he was in the top 10 for shots in the league. Is that the role of a central midfielder, which is what he has, since 2007, insisted on playing?

As for the cost of bringing in a scorer, the last two major scorers brought into the league (and I'm not counting thierry henry, who has yet to be a major scorer in mls) were Alvaro Saborio and Fredy Montero. Both cost less than $130,000 when they came into the league. Before that, Omar Cummings cost less than $100,000 when he came into the league. Yes, all three either have or are being considered for DP status now. But all three are young, and BELOW THE PRICE YOU ASKED FOR EXAMPLES OF.

Therefore, this is a lost point, and a fine example of how there are two sides to any issue.

I think you made your point about six pages ago, and that there are valid reasons for offering him a better deal. On the balance of the arguments, I disagree with you. But I can at least see your side. What I don't see is any suggestion here that you can see anyone else's.

Waggy
12-06-2010, 02:29 AM
Nothing to add to the debate, just pointing out it's insane the vote is 121-121 as I type this. Crazy. If there's ever been a topic to agree to disagree on....

Brooker
12-06-2010, 03:07 AM
Nothing to add to the debate, just pointing out it's insane the vote is 121-121 as I type this. Crazy. If there's ever been a topic to agree to disagree on....

yeah it's pretty crazy isn't it? I've been checking it almost every day and I never saw the yes/no separated by more than 2 votes.

habstfc
12-06-2010, 10:43 AM
Out of curiousity, what is the max $ a player can be paid without being a DP?

TFCRegina
12-06-2010, 11:41 AM
Out of curiousity, what is the max $ a player can be paid without being a DP?

Approximately 400k, there may be ways over that with allocation money.

I'll note though that a Designated Player, under the new rules, has a lower cap hit than 400k.

Pookie
12-06-2010, 11:49 AM
Out of curiousity, what is the max $ a player can be paid without being a DP?

I believe the number is just shy of $440k. DeRo is the 2nd highest paid, Non-DP in the league.

Roogsy
12-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Nothing to add to the debate, just pointing out it's insane the vote is 121-121 as I type this. Crazy. If there's ever been a topic to agree to disagree on....

:noidea:

Never heard of the concept. :lol:

Roogsy
12-06-2010, 12:21 PM
Holy blinded by orthodoxy.

Dude, I think you're a swell guy, but if you think you're supporting your position any more factually than others here, you're ignoring the fact that you're generalizing as much as anyon. Half of what you state is just your opinion. Polls don't come out 50/50 when only one side has all the valid points.

Cold hard data? Everyone here has cold hard data. DeRo had four assists last year. Four assists, from the attacking central midfielder. That's weak. It's also cold, hard data.

Cold hard data? Our central midfielder took four more shots than Wondolowski did to score his 15 goals. So he basically had a worse strike rate than the allegedly unproven striker. In fact, he was in the top 10 for shots in the league. Is that the role of a central midfielder, which is what he has, since 2007, insisted on playing?

As for the cost of bringing in a scorer, the last two major scorers brought into the league (and I'm not counting thierry henry, who has yet to be a major scorer in mls) were Alvaro Saborio and Fredy Montero. Both cost less than $130,000 when they came into the league. Before that, Omar Cummings cost less than $100,000 when he came into the league. Yes, all three either have or are being considered for DP status now. But all three are young, and BELOW THE PRICE YOU ASKED FOR EXAMPLES OF.

Therefore, this is a lost point, and a fine example of how there are two sides to any issue.

I think you made your point about six pages ago, and that there are valid reasons for offering him a better deal. On the balance of the arguments, I disagree with you. But I can at least see your side. What I don't see is any suggestion here that you can see anyone else's.


I always do like your points. You certainly make me understand a little better dude and that is the case here. In addition to the poll, it would appear there is no resolution from the fan side, it will have to be from the team itself and the direction they take.


P.S. Notice that the scorers that have been brought into the league that have surprised on the upside have been cheap Latin pickups. Exactly where many of us have been telling TFC to go and where they have told us they were not looking. (At the time, maybe with JK that will change.)

TFCRegina
12-06-2010, 12:29 PM
I always do like your points. You certainly make me understand a little better dude and that is the case here. In addition to the poll, it would appear there is no resolution from the fan side, it will have to be from the team itself and the direction they take.

Which is where it should be coming from anyway. ^

jloome
12-06-2010, 05:24 PM
I always do like your points. You certainly make me understand a little better dude and that is the case here. In addition to the poll, it would appear there is no resolution from the fan side, it will have to be from the team itself and the direction they take.


P.S. Notice that the scorers that have been brought into the league that have surprised on the upside have been cheap Latin pickups. Exactly where many of us have been telling TFC to go and where they have told us they were not looking. (At the time, maybe with JK that will change.)

The shocking thing is that Monteros aren't uncommon down there.

The big problem, as far as I can determine, is that there's so much agent and team graft in south America. Everyone's got their hand out, and all of a sudden a guy who's supposed to be costing you $130,000 a year has a $1 million transfer or balloon payment attached.

There are three or four players in Uruguay alone, for example, who could rack up 10 or 15 a season in MLS. But they're priced out of the reach of all but the top European squads.

It's tough. Colombia seems the best value right now, maybe central America as well. Argentina is lousy with agents and scouts, and Brazil is the same with additional immigration and work permit consequences to even scouting there.

But in general, I'd agree we should be looking south a lot more often.

prizby
12-06-2010, 05:44 PM
interesting...poll closes at an exact 50/50 split

J .
12-06-2010, 06:46 PM
Wow even split. Itll be interesting to see which route TFC goes. We havent won without or with him. I guess it will be up to the new manager to see what happens.

Also, I think if there were floods of easily acquirable strikers in latin america, more MLS and other European teams would be on it. Also, purpose of MLS is to develop domestic talent so I think a lot of it has to giving homegrown talent more cracks at playing full time and historically I dont think a ton of money is spent on scouting.

sampace
12-06-2010, 06:51 PM
Trade him for a bonafide up and comer player who will make an impact. I do not appreciate his me first attitude which he displayed. Yes it was just once, but that revelation speaks volumes about what is happening behind the scenes. He is not a leader, should not be captain, whether he scores more goals or not he has put him self first in front of the fans and team mates and lost all respect. I say Schelotto has showed more professionalism than DeRosario with how he was similarily treated on his team. In comparison he is a steal and shows more leadership abilities. So what he dives, most players do! Including DeRosario!

jloome
12-06-2010, 07:57 PM
Wow even split. Itll be interesting to see which route TFC goes. We havent won without or with him. I guess it will be up to the new manager to see what happens.

Also, I think if there were floods of easily acquirable strikers in latin america, more MLS and other European teams would be on it. Also, purpose of MLS is to develop domestic talent so I think a lot of it has to giving homegrown talent more cracks at playing full time and historically I dont think a ton of money is spent on scouting.

There are floods of good strikers down there. It's the "easily acquirable" part that seems problematic. MLS just doesn't usually have the resources.

Technorgasm
12-07-2010, 12:43 PM
who gives a rats ass how much he gets?
it does nt count against the cap.
give him whatever, its not like MLSE is hurt'n

Shakes McQueen
12-07-2010, 07:29 PM
who gives a rats ass how much he gets?
it does nt count against the cap.
give him whatever, its not like MLSE is hurt'n

The entire crux of the matter is whether people think DeRo should be given one of our DP slots.

- Scott

Pookie
12-07-2010, 09:05 PM
The entire crux of the matter is whether people think DeRo should be given one of our DP slots.

- Scott

Agreed as to that being the issue.

The Club has been willing to spend the money on 2 DPs. While a 3rd is available, it isn't clear that we would pay the additional money necessary to secure the 3rd slot.

Regardless, to give DeRo a raise means he has to get the DP tag. He is just shy of the non-DP league max salary right now.

If you do that, your 2 DPs would be JDG and DeRo. While we might add a 3rd, we might not. Even still, 2 of the 3 would be those players.

And those players haven't had any impact on our ability, as a team, to create a winning environment.

Since the DP slots aren't unlimited, we have to evaluate them against other available DPs and determine whether that is a good use of the slot.

If JDG and DeRo are our DPs next year, I look forward to more free time come MLS Playoff season.