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View Full Version : and the new signing is...... (drumroll please)



Parkdale
11-25-2010, 12:50 PM
Toronto FC (http://www.facebook.com/torontofc)
We will be announcing a player signing in 15 minutes. Please visit http://www.torontofc.ca/ at 1 p.m. ET.

Nodoubtguy
11-25-2010, 12:50 PM
hmmmm.....I wonder

Oblio2
11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
?????

gmacpheetfc
11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
bas ent oh great

Ben - D.O.W.
11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
Gotta be Bas Ent right? Which I think is an awesome name.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
has to be Bas Ent. Though a totally new signing would be unexpected and great.

Dv23
11-25-2010, 12:54 PM
You're all gonna be shocked when you find out it's my friends. I got them in.

But really, gotta be Ent.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 12:54 PM
http://www.dutchlionsfc.com/cms/images/stories/bas%20ent-heerenveen.jpg

"This is The Ent! My only friend -- The Ent!"

Stryker
11-25-2010, 12:55 PM
So we are signing Bass? I didn't enough know he played.


http://gaygamer.net/images/lance-bass.jpg

Whoop
11-25-2010, 12:55 PM
LOL gee I wonder.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Also - is it pronounced "Ba" or more like a "Baz?"

Not impressed with this guy after Bolton, but that was one game so I'm reserving judgment for now.

Oblio2
11-25-2010, 01:00 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/primary_image-620x350/image_nodes/2010/11/Sturgis.jpgNathan Sturgis

Toronto FC announced Thursday they have acquired midfielder Nathan Sturgis from Vancouver Whitecaps FC in exchange for their natural first round selection (eighth overall) in the 2011 MLS SuperDraft. On Wednesday, Sturgis, 23, was selected by Vancouver from Seattle Sounders FC in the 2010 MLS Expansion Draft.

“We are very happy to be able to bring Nathan to the club,” said Earl Cochrane, Toronto FC interim director of soccer. “He is a player who will be able to make an immediate impact in our team next season, but is also young enough to play a role here in the long term. We studied the options that would likely be available to us with our first round pick in the MLS SuperDraft and made the decision that the addition of Nathan is of greater benefit to our squad.”

In 2011, Sturgis will be entering his sixth season in Major League Soccer. He started a career high 16 games for Seattle in 2010 and scored one goal, a penalty in a 4-0 win at Columbus Crew on September 18.

Sturgis began his MLS career in 2006 when he was selected by Los Angeles Galaxy from Clemson University as the 12th overall pick in the SuperDraft. In June 2007 he was traded to Real Salt Lake and was then selected by Seattle in the 2008 MLS Expansion Draft.

Sturgis was born in Florida and has represented the United States at youth level. He has twice been named in the U.S. squad for the FIFA U-20 World Cup, including the tournament held in Canada in 2007 where he played in every match as the American team reached the Quarterfinals.

Nathan Sturgis
Position: Midfielder
Height: 5-10
Weight: 150
Date of Birth: July 6, 1987
Hometown: St. Augustine, Florida
Citizenship: USA
College: Clemson
Previous clubs: Los Angeles Galaxy, Real Salt Lake, Seattle Sounders FC, Vancouver Whitecaps FC

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:00 PM
Sturgis....Actually, good acquisition. I like this kid.

Nodoubtguy
11-25-2010, 01:00 PM
SURPRISE!!!

Nathan Sturgis!

TOBOR !
11-25-2010, 01:00 PM
You're all gonna be shocked when you find out it's my friends. I got them in.

Dude, you are awesome. If nothing else you've got a fantastic sense of humour (which is in short supply these days).

Dv23
11-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Sturgis..? I don't know him well enough to comment but I guess we think he's worth more than a first round pick. So was Serioux though...

scut farkus
11-25-2010, 01:01 PM
I guess to fill the roles left by Gala and Saric.

Kooper
11-25-2010, 01:02 PM
We signed Sturgis. Great another midfielder who can't score.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Sturgis

TFCRegina
11-25-2010, 01:02 PM
For a first rounder. Bold move.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:03 PM
hahaha,....... all you know-it-alls got a surprise didn't you?

TOBOR !
11-25-2010, 01:03 PM
So does this mean Juergen has discovered our culture, settled on a playing style, and advised that Sturgis is a good fit for our new system ? Or are we just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic ?

Oblio2
11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
a 1st round pick (8th)for a guy who has moved 4 times before his 24th birthday.....and was picked 11th overall some, 5 years ago.
I hope he's a late bloomer.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
Wonder how this will play out. Only 150 and 5'10, you gotta think he's quick, right?

Sorta reminds me of a Jacob Peterson but, it seems, with even worse scoring ability.

EDIT: Having said that, I plan to be more measured with my TFC criticisms going forward, so I'll reserve judgment until at least the first week of play. Then, all bets are off. :D

EDIT: We should also do a poll on when the last time was you were excited by a signing. I have to say, I haven't been in AGES. Why can't we for once sign someone recognizable, at least in the MLS if not internationally?

TFCRegina
11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
We signed Sturgis. Great another midfielder who can't score.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Sturgis

Great, another guy who doesn't know that the real role of a midfielder is.

reggie
11-25-2010, 01:05 PM
not impressed..for a 1st rounder 8th overall.

Stryker
11-25-2010, 01:07 PM
not impressed..for a 1st rounder 8th overall.
Me ethier.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 01:07 PM
Fun tidbit is his 2010 salary:

SEA Sturgis Nathan D-M
Base salary: $65,000.00
Guaranteed compensation: $69,250.00

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:07 PM
hmmm.... and he went to college at Clemson. Another South Carolina connection!

loconet
11-25-2010, 01:08 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Nathan_Sturgis.JPG

Kid has no balance! He's about to fall. Here we go..

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:09 PM
By alot of the post in this thread (people looking up his wiki, or his stats, or size) seems to me like some of you didn't watch Seattle this year. And since you didn't, you are judging with no first hand knowledge of what this player is like.

He's a good player, kinda like a Cronin if you ask me. Actually, I put him slightly better then Cronin.

reggie
11-25-2010, 01:09 PM
he is a dime a doz player..100 guys like him in the league.hope im wrong.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:10 PM
And I'll add that 8th overall really means nothing to me. I have no idea what this year's draft looks like. But 8th overall surely doesn't guarantee you a starter in the MLS. It's hit or miss really.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 01:10 PM
By alot of the post in this thread (people looking up his wiki, or his stats, or size) seems to me like some of you didn't watch Seattle this year. And since you didn't, you are judging with no first hand knowledge of what this player is like.

He's a good player, kinda like a Cronin if you ask me. Actually, I put him slightly better then Cronin.

Oh totally, I'll be the first to say I didn't watch Seattle -- except for when they came to town near the start of the season and we beat them.

But I have ZERO knowledge so I'm ready to take your word for it. I loved Cronin and was sad to see him go, so if this guy's comparable or better, by all means lets give him a chance.

menefreghista
11-25-2010, 01:10 PM
he is a dime a doz player..100 guys like him in the league.hope im wrong.

Don't worry. Cochrane and Brennan know what they're doing.

This time its different. They are sorry.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Don't worry. Cochrane and Brennan know what they're doing.

This time its different. They are sorry.

Go wave your cane somewhere else. You're in every thread, saying the same thing about Cochrane and Brennan. It's BORING.

menefreghista
11-25-2010, 01:12 PM
Go wave your cane somewhere else. You're in every thread, saying the same thing about Cochrane and Brennan. It's BORING.

Really? I don't think I mentioned either of them in the Leafs thread. Maybe you should check to make sure though.

Chevy
11-25-2010, 01:13 PM
he is a dime a doz player..100 guys like him in the league.hope im wrong.

Possibly, but 80% of the league are dime a dozen guys. :)

stoked
11-25-2010, 01:13 PM
A first rounder? I thought we were rebuilding? Then again we haven't had much "luck" in the draft

rocker
11-25-2010, 01:13 PM
I have no idea about Sturgis.

But I also have no idea about the draft eligible players. It's impossible to say that a currently unknown draft pick will be better than Sturgis.

So I'll reserve judgment.

At least Sturgis is a known quantity, relatively young, with lots of MLS experience.

But who knows really. It's gotta be all about the team now... none of this fantasy league shit about individual players.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:15 PM
And I'll add that 8th overall really means nothing to me.


case in point:


MLS Draft Picks 2009, Round 1
2009: 1, 4 - Toronto FC - O'Brian White | University of Connecticut


but he'll be scoring against us next year. I'm sure of it.

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 01:15 PM
he is a dime a doz player..100 guys like him in the league.hope im wrong.

He's a dime a dozen player at a dime a dozen salary. At least he's not overpaid like Mo's First Wave guys were.

Every MLS squad needs some "meh" players like that to fit within the cap.

Whoop
11-25-2010, 01:16 PM
Meh... they're still going to sign Ent.

But good on them to surprise us. LOL

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 01:16 PM
And I'll add that 8th overall really means nothing to me. I have no idea what this year's draft looks like. But 8th overall surely doesn't guarantee you a starter in the MLS. It's hit or miss really.


Unfortunately neither is Sturgis. "Career high 16 starts last year for Seattle".

I'm not pissed...but I'm not impressed either. Hardly worthy of an announcement.

He's a bit part at best. He may be a decent player but the fact that he's moved so much in such little time (every year it seems) leads me to believe that he has never been in anyone's long term plans.

Except our of course...lol

"He is a player who will be able to make an immediate impact in our team next season, but is also young enough to play a role here in the long term."

The guy has been passed around from team to team and started less than half the games last year (career high) but now our interim GM has classified him as an immediate impact player and a long term player too.

Jokes.

Usually I'd say I'll reserve judgement until I see him more but at first glance....this is not all that promising.

Stryker
11-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Slow as hell though. Good passer, decent lobs into the box.
He's basically another LaBrocca type player. Better in some thtings, not as good in others.

xj Darrell
11-25-2010, 01:19 PM
He's a good player, kinda like a Cronin if you ask me. Actually, I put him slightly better then Cronin.

I agree. You know what you are getting with Sturgis.
Unless you have the top spots at the draft, it's kind of a crap shoot - some are ready for MLS and some are not. Plus all our $$$ is tied up in JDG :)

Kooper
11-25-2010, 01:22 PM
Great, another guy who doesn't know that the real role of a midfielder is.

Ok take it this way. Unless we are planning on getting rid of JDG we need attacking mid fielders, to play behind the strikers and provide passes, play makers or we need wingers. Yes mid fielders don't just score goals but if he is a winger or attacking mid or even a classic central midfielder he should more than one goal in 4 seasons. His only goal came from a penalty!!

Add to that he has played less than half the games in any season for any of the three MLS teams he played for over the past 5 seasons it looks like we traded a decent draft position for a journeyman bench player.
:picard:

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:22 PM
Unfortunately neither is Sturgis. "Career high 16 starts last year for Seattle".

I'm not pissed...but I'm not impressed either. Hardly worthy of an announcement.

He's a bit part at best. He may be a decent player but the fact that he's moved so much in such little time (every year it seems) leads me to believe that he has never been in anyone's long term plans.

Except our of course...lol

"He is a player who will be able to make an immediate impact in our team next season, but is also young enough to play a role here in the long term."

The guy has been passed around from team to team and started less than half the games last year (career high) but now our interim GM has classified him as an immediate impact player and a long term player too.

Jokes.

Usually I'd say I'll reserve judgement until I see him more but at first glance....this is not all that promising.

Once again, a whole bunch of "I've never seen this guy play" but I'll make judgement anyways. So really, your opinion has no weight in my books.

Just for fun, I went back through the draft for #8 spot, starting with 2005, here is the list

Jason Hernandez
Patrick Ianni
Jerson Monteiro
Josh Lambo
Matt Besler
Dilly Duka

I mean really. It's a crap shoot what you'll get in that draft anyways. The guy comes cheap, and Seattle turned him into a starter in the middle of the park with Alonzo. It's really a decent deal if you ask me.

reggie
11-25-2010, 01:22 PM
maybe earl got got some advice from mo on this one.
i know mo had a hard on for sturgis when he was in LA.

__wowza
11-25-2010, 01:23 PM
just saw the tfc website and.. OH GOD THIS IS A BAD PICTURE OF EARL
http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/dl-trans/image_nodes/2010/10/Cochrane1.jpg

Ossington Mental Youth
11-25-2010, 01:23 PM
ill reserve judgement either way

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 01:24 PM
A 1st rounder seems like a steep price to pay for an unproven midfielder but I'll reserve judgement until I see him play first hand.

I have no issues with Cochrane and Co. clearing out roster/cap space but I must say I find these types of moves perplexing considering that the next GM hasn't even been identified yet. It's only my opinion but I doubt Klinsmann had anything to do with this transaction whatsoever which indicates to me that Cochrane and Brennan are firmly in charge.

I wonder how much of the roster will be finalized by the time a new GM is hired? Should we be asking if a new GM will be hired at all?

scut farkus
11-25-2010, 01:26 PM
Unfortunately neither is Sturgis. "Career high 16 starts last year for Seattle".

I'm not pissed...but I'm not impressed either. Hardly worthy of an announcement.



It's not like TFC held a big press conference or anything... They teased it on Twitter 15 minutes before "the announcement" and then made a simple post on their website. Are they just going to secretly put him in the roster without saying where our first round pick went?
Clearly he isn't meant to be (or isn't being presented as) the answer to all of our problems. Let's put things into a bit of perspective...

Management doesn't see many options in the draft and have decided to use the pick towards getting a young player who can be placed into the line-up now, or play off of the bench.

Not a huge signing, just a utility player. I have no problem with that. Carry on!

Kooper
11-25-2010, 01:26 PM
case in point:


MLS Draft Picks 2009, Round 1
2009: 1, 4 - Toronto FC - O'Brian White | University of Connecticut


but he'll be scoring against us next year. I'm sure of it.

Stephan Frei was picked 13th. The MLS Draft is a crap shoot but you have to have be in the game to get a shot at it.

__wowza
11-25-2010, 01:27 PM
if he is a winger (again, i'm talking with no experience here), there's the very real possibility that we're going to be a playing a 4-4-1-1 next year.

defensive four
two wingers (this kid and lindsay)
two mid wingers (JDG and dero?)
a servicing CF (barrett or dero?)
and a striker

ladies and gentlemen, may i introduce to you our new formation.. THE TORONTO FC BIRD OF PREY!!

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/stunnamed/klingon_birdofprey_dorsal.gif

Cashcleaner
11-25-2010, 01:28 PM
This news is kinda "meh" in all honesty. Nothing about his record blows me away, though I'll concede he seemed to fit in well with the Sounders. He's a defensive mid, so let's not get too hung about about his goal count.

Not really disappointed because I've seen and heard so little from him, but not blown away either for the same reasons.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:28 PM
if he is a winger (again, i'm talking with no experience here), there's the very real possibility that we're going to be a playing a 4-4-1-1.

defensive four
two wingers (this kid and lindsay)
two mid wingers (JDG and dero?)
a servicing CF (barrett or dero?)
and a striker

ladies and gentlemen, may i introduce to you our new formation.. THE TORONTO FC BIRD OF PREY!!

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/stunnamed/klingon_birdofprey_dorsal.gif

I personally don't see him as a winger. That's not where he played with Seattle. I would see him taking Saric's role and playing along side De Guzman in the middle of the park. He was playing alongside Alonzo last year and I thought they were both great together.

xj Darrell
11-25-2010, 01:28 PM
This isn't a sexy signing, it's a common sense signing, which is something TFC has been short on in the past.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 01:29 PM
Once again, a whole bunch of "I've never seen this guy play" but I'll make judgement anyways. So really, your opinion has no weight in my books.



Fair enough...except for the fact that I'm sure I've seen him play. Just never really noticed him.

You've somehow deduced that he's a decent player having seen him play but also seem to ignore the facts that:

a) nobody has wanted this guy for more than a season
b) nobody has seen fit to make him a starter for more than 16 games in a season
c) the guy was exposed in the expansion draft....taken by an expansion team and immediately traded.

How can these things add up to a guy that we should believe is going to be a good addition to this team in the long run?

Because Earl Cochrane says so?

No thanks. Like I said (and you pointed out)....I doubt we'll miss the pick all that much but at the same time...we are NOT getting a really good player.

We're getting a player that will likely be playing somewhere else in 2012...if history is any indicator.

Stouffville_RPB
11-25-2010, 01:31 PM
A first rounder? I thought we were rebuilding? Then again we haven't had much "luck" in the draft

We got a relatively cheap player with 5 years experience in the league and is still under 25 years of age. You'd rather have a mystery bag?

The MLS draft is not like the NFL, NBA or NHL. It isn't the only way to bring in talent. Good on the kids for going to college and all but I'd rather see TFC develop their own talent through the academy than putting their future to chance.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:31 PM
Stephan Frei was picked 13th. The MLS Draft is a crap shoot but you have to have be in the game to get a shot at it.



and it was a lucky fluke that Frei wasn't gone before that. I know everyone was floored that he was still an option.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 01:31 PM
It's not like TFC held a big press conference or anything... They teased it on Twitter 15 minutes before "the announcement" and then made a simple post on their website. Are they just going to secretly put him in the roster without saying where our first round pick went?
Clearly he isn't meant to be (or isn't being presented as) the answer to all of our problems. Let's put things into a bit of perspective...

Management doesn't see many options in the draft and have decided to use the pick towards getting a young player who can be placed into the line-up now, or play off of the bench.

Not a huge signing, just a utility player. I have no problem with that. Carry on!

Absolutely agree with everything you said.

The one thing that concerns me is the fact that we clearly have somebody making decisions about the direction of this club and as far as I know, there haven't been any announcments regarding our new GM..so...........

That's what worries me. Not the calibre of player that Sturgis is.

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 01:31 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/dasovic-welcomes-sturgis


“He is a good player to bring into the midfield and has a great character. We talked to coaches that he has played under and they all had good things to say about him. We want players with good character who want to be here and work hard. We think he is a good fit for the club and we are looking forward to having him here.”Looks like a cheap player brought in to fill out the bench. Chosen as much for character as for skills. I'll take him over Preki crap any day.

Honestly, if we sign no-one until March like Mo used to do, everyone complains.
Now we are signing people in November and everyone complains because we haven't signed C. Ronaldo.
Chill time.

CretanBull
11-25-2010, 01:32 PM
I like Sturgis, he's a good MLS player. I have no idea what the draft class is like this year, so I have no idea if its a good deal or not...but adding Sturgis makes us a better team.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Fair enough...except for the fact that I'm sure I've seen him play. Just never really noticed him.

You've somehow deduced that he's a decent player having seen him play but also seem to ignore the facts that:

a) nobody has wanted this guy for more than a season
b) nobody has seen fit to make him a starter for more than 16 games in a season
c) the guy was exposed in the expansion draft....taken by an expansion team and immediately traded.

How can these things add up to a guy that we should believe is going to be a good addition to this team in the long run?

Because Earl Cochrane says so?

No thanks. Like I said (and you pointed out)....I doubt we'll miss the pick all that much but at the same time...we are NOT getting a really good player.

We're getting a player that will likely be playing somewhere else in 2012...if history is any indicator.

It's all relative. I have no idea what you expect. Did you expect to get Zakuani from Seattle for 8th overall in the draft? Hey guess what, there were alot of good players exposed in the expansion draft for one reason or another. Maybe you should think about the fact that he was taken in that expansion draft and other good players weren't.

It's all about bang for your buck. And in the MLS, nothing is more important. This guys is good bang for your buck. Simple.

moralis
11-25-2010, 01:34 PM
I ask everyone to listen to Earl's media conference call. He said a lot of players on the unprotected list are out of contract or have option years. Expect to see Nick Garcia, Nane Joseph and Amadou Sanyang options not picked up.

Listen to Gareth Wheeler's and Dan Girard's question's

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp

CretanBull
11-25-2010, 01:35 PM
and it was a lucky fluke that Frei wasn't gone before that. I know everyone was floored that he was still an option.

He wasn't an un-earthed gem at 13th, he slipped to that point because no one needed a keeper and there's an abundence of cheap/experienced/quality keepers in the MLS - they simply don't have much value in the draft.

DangerRed
11-25-2010, 01:35 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/dasovic-welcomes-sturgis
Looks like a cheap player brought in to fill out the bench. Chosen as much for character as for skills. I'll take him over Preki crap any day.

Honestly, if we sign no-one until March like Mo used to do, everyone complains.
Now we are signing people in November and everyone complains because we haven't signed C. Ronaldo.
Chill time.

This pretty much sums it up. Also:

"We studied the options that would likely be available to us with our first round pick in the MLS SuperDraft and made the decision that the addition of Nathan is of greater benefit to our squad," Cochrane said.

Hopefully the "we" in that quote includes Klinsmann, but it's good to hear that they at least evaluated the whole draft class before this decision was made.

Solid, low-key signing for the bench is how this one will likely end up, but we won't know until he plays.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:35 PM
Now we are signing people in November and everyone complains because we haven't signed C. Ronaldo.


if we DID sign C.Ronaldo.....


well I wouldn't be happy because he's a douche.

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 01:37 PM
maybe we are trading another one of our midfielders for a 1st round pick. So this trade may make sense in contex at the end of the day (week, month, year).

Stouffville_RPB
11-25-2010, 01:38 PM
c) the guy was exposed in the expansion draft....taken by an expansion team and immediately traded.


So was Nyassi, so was Dax.

Even if Sturgis is a bench player for $70,000 it's better than the $90,000 we were paying Saric who spent alot of time injured and did come off the bench quite often.

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 01:40 PM
So was Nyassi, so was Dax.

Even if Sturgis is a bench player for $70,000 it's better than the $90,000 we were paying Saric who spent alot of time injured and did come off the bench quite often.

... and that's how wise cap management works.

You save 3 x $20,000 and that's another player, or a significant upgrade to a player you were going to acquire.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:41 PM
This pretty much sums it up. Also:

"We studied the options that would likely be available to us with our first round pick in the MLS SuperDraft and made the decision that the addition of Nathan is of greater benefit to our squad," Cochrane said.

Hopefully the "we" in that quote includes Klinsmann, but it's good to hear that they at least evaluated the whole draft class before this decision was made.

Solid, low-key signing for the bench is how this one will likely end up, but we won't know until he plays.

He played 20 games last year on a very good and extremely deep Seattle team. You have to put that into context. In fact, Seattle's DP started 4 games last year (Fernandez) and he comes at a much higher price. So again, bang for your buck, this is a good deal for someone who should be able to start alongside JDG.

J .
11-25-2010, 01:43 PM
a 1st round pick (8th)for a guy who has moved 4 times before his 24th birthday.....and was picked 11th overall some, 5 years ago.
I hope he's a late bloomer.

Well I dont think TFCs academy is as good as Northage or Daves, but does anyone have a scout available? Mine are all out till tonight.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 01:44 PM
By alot of the post in this thread (people looking up his wiki, or his stats, or size) seems to me like some of you didn't watch Seattle this year. And since you didn't, you are judging with no first hand knowledge of what this player is like.

He's a good player, kinda like a Cronin if you ask me. Actually, I put him slightly better then Cronin.

Except Cronin didn't cost us a 1st round draft pick.

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 01:46 PM
I also think that Sanyang's concussion maybe worst than thought. He didn't hear anything about him the second half of the season. LaBrocca also maybe the guy traded now that we got Sturgis.

JDG may be able to push up more now with Sturgis there.

P.S. Why can't San Jose just release Cronin....We need him back!!

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2010, 01:46 PM
We just got rid of players we hoped would play better than their paycheque. They didn`t. This guy may. He`s not suppose to be our saviour.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 01:46 PM
So was Nyassi, so was Dax.

Even if Sturgis is a bench player for $70,000 it's better than the $90,000 we were paying Saric who spent alot of time injured and did come off the bench quite often.


Maybe so...but the questions remain....

1. Why are we making these kinds of additions now? (if Sturgis is indeed a bit part)

2. Who's making these decisions?

I'd rather the club announce that Cochrane and Daso are the permanent choices for GM and coach so that we know who's in charge and can hold them accountable.

Here's a hypothetical

1. Cochrane trades our 8th overall for Sturgis.
2. Cochrane is replaced by the "real" GM
3. Sturgis proves to be what he's been at every other club in his career...decent but nothing special
4. An impact player is selected in this years draft somewhere after the 7th pick.

5. We're left wondering why the move was made and have no recourse because the guy who made it is not in charge.

Worse still....Cochrane is name permanent GM and this is the first of many bad decisions he makes at the club.

Best case scenario-Sturgis becomes a regular starter in the midfield next to JDG and is serviceable in his role but unspectacular but is cheap so we're happy.

Worst case scenario-Sturgis is decent but moves on to another team next year (like he's done every other year) and we lose out on a good player in the entry draft and continue to suck.

I have no reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:48 PM
Except Cronin didn't cost us a 1st round draft pick.



Cronin was a 1st round pick, so in theory..... he did cost us exactly that.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 01:48 PM
Leaving players unprotected for the expansion draft is one thing. That was something that needed to be done asap because of league timelines.

But now Cochrane is making team-building decisions. Something that should be done by the guy who will be permanently filling out that role. If it has already been decided that it's Earl, make it official and let's move on. But if it has not been decided yet, why is he making decisions that someone else will have to live with?

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:49 PM
Except Cronin didn't cost us a 1st round draft pick.

I don't understand. Cronin cost us a third overall pick. That's where we drafted him did we not? Then we traded him for a bag of pucks.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 01:49 PM
Leaving players unprotected for the expansion draft is one thing. That was something that needed to be done asap because of league timelines.

But now Cochrane is making team-building decisions. Something that should be done by the guy who will be permanently filling out that role. If it has already been decided that it's Earl, make it official and let's move on. But if it has not been decided yet, why is he making decisions that someone else will have to live with?


Hey, we're agreeing more and more these days. lol

:D

Wagner
11-25-2010, 01:49 PM
if we DID sign C.Ronaldo.....


well I wouldn't be happy because he's a douche.
that likely has herpes.

http://ronaldocristianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/c-ronaldo-hilton.jpg

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 01:50 PM
Cronin was a 1st round pick, so in theory..... he did cost us exactly that.

Your math is skewed Sparky...if Cronin cost us 1 first round draft pick, trading him away and then bringing in Sturgis cost us 2 first round draft picks. Only if you want to view this as a Cronin vs Sturgis issue which is the point Pachuco was making.

J .
11-25-2010, 01:50 PM
Im underwhelmed. Sturgis will be a decent mid but we are lacking flank players. It seems we stock pile central mids, but we need guys with pace out wide. They likely believe Peterson will be able to play, I dont know.

What I do know is that last season we were exposed wide like we have been every year. This signing does nothing to address that issue. It gets us a guy who is ok and likely has hit is ceiling on development.

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 01:51 PM
Maybe so...but the questions remain....

1. Why are we making these kinds of additions now? (if Sturgis is indeed a bit part)

2. Who's making these decisions?


The Sun article today made it clear that Klinsmann's group was consulted before the draft.

Cochrane and Daso said at the beginning of the process that they would continue running TFC as if they were permanent, given the short time until things like the expansion draft happened.

Don't take it as any indication that they are permanently in charge. They aren't, and have said so.

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 01:52 PM
Only the 2 Canadian teams will be making moves today. All the US teams are off today.

I have a feeling there will be more moves tomorrow by TFC.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:53 PM
Didn't Klinsman consult with LA some 5 years ago. Didn't Sturgis get drafted by LA some 5 years ago. Hmmm. Not sure if the timelines line up, but it would be interested if they did.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 01:54 PM
Your math is skewed Sparky...if Cronin cost us 1 first round draft pick, trading him away and then bringing in Sturgis cost us 2 first round draft picks. Only if you want to view this as a Cronin vs Sturgis issue which is the point Pachuco was making.

you lost me here. We used a 3rd overall pick to acquire Cronin. We used the 8th overall pick to acquire Sturgis.

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 01:55 PM
Duane Rollins in his blog, is saying that Sturgis will play fullback.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 01:57 PM
you lost me here. We used a 3rd overall pick to acquire Cronin. We used the 8th overall pick to acquire Sturgis.


http://www.mlsdraft.com/2010/01/mls-draft-picks-2009.html

2nd actually. Ist round, 2nd pick.


Roosgy is thinking of the value we lost when we unloaded him. It's kind of like in a stock market crash - you haven't lost money until you cash out the stocks. I think Cronin would have a much greater value for TFC in the 2011 season that he did in the past (and under Preki)

CretanBull
11-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Duane Rollins in his blog, is saying that Sturgis will play fullback.

That's possible, especially considering we just let two of them go, but he might be a bit small for full-time duty as a fullback.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 01:58 PM
you lost me here. We used a 3rd overall pick to acquire Cronin. We used the 8th overall pick to acquire Sturgis.

I was only making an argument analyzing the unecessary movement TFC makes and in the process wasting time and picks.

If Cronin and Sturgis are indeed players that can be considered like-for-like, then all you needed to do was keep Cronin (and his cost to us of 1 first round draft pick) and never have the need to trade away out next first round draft pick to bring in Sturgis. But as it is, Cronin was traded away for a song (wasting a first round draft pick) and then we traded for Sturgis (costing us another first round draft pick).

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:01 PM
Don't take it as any indication that they are permanently in charge. They aren't, and have said so.

Except the decisions they are making should be made by those are will be permanently in charge.

Even with my obvious bias towards DeRo I would have to admit that nothing should be done with him until the permanent GM comes in. So why all these other moves that are just as impactful to the team and bind whoever comes in with an entirely new squad that is not of his making? Shouldn't he be the one building it, selecting the players and giving this team an identity, not the caretaker GM?

xj Darrell
11-25-2010, 02:02 PM
Chochrane et al would have had to make the decision on the draft, so why the backlash that he made the decision on the trade? It think he is trying to do his job.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:03 PM
if the interm GM slept on what the team thought was a good move, then he'd be at a much bigger risk of getting canned later.

If he's going to act like he's just a benchwarmer GM, then we'll get exactly that kind of decision making from him.
He needs to be able to grab a decent player when the opportunity presents itself.

billyfly
11-25-2010, 02:05 PM
People sometimes wonder why I don't comment on TFC things and stick to the Leafs and OT threads. This is why. I don't know this guy. How can I comment?!

I prefer early signings to late signings (MO) on the face value of it.

I also made the connection to Klinnsmen's Galaxy days and his drafting.

Wull
11-25-2010, 02:05 PM
this is a good deal for someone who should be able to start alongside JDG.

I'd rather he started before jdg

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 02:05 PM
I was only making an argument analyzing the unecessary movement TFC makes and in the process wasting time and picks.

If Cronin and Sturgis are indeed players that can be considered like-for-like, then all you needed to do was keep Cronin (and his cost to us of 1 first round draft pick) and never have the need to trade away out next first round draft pick to bring in Sturgis. But as it is, Cronin was traded away for a song (wasting a first round draft pick) and then we traded for Sturgis (costing us another first round draft pick).

Yeap, I agree with that. It all comes down to TFC hiring a coach that dismantled the plan and now we have to start all over again. It's all Preki's fault ;)

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:06 PM
If he's going to act like he's just a benchwarmer GM, then we'll get exactly that kind of decision making from him.
He needs to be able to grab a decent player when the opportunity presents itself.

Or as I would prefer to put it, if he is going to be a benchwarmer GM then maybe he should act like a benchwarmer GM? The fundamental point here isn't that he is grabbing a decent player or not, it's that he is putting pieces together for this team before the team even has a plan. And the team does not have a plan because there is no GM in place. Let's remember, that this team has sucked for 4 years because it pieced this team together with no plan and the intention going forward in getting rid of MoJo was to bring someone in WITH a plan. Until that certain someone comes in, isn't Earl doing exactly what MoJo did? Bringing in players with good reps (Garcia, Cunny etc.) into a system that was not defined and therefore they struggled?

This team is putting the cart before the horse again. When will amateur hour end? Either Cochrane is or is not the permanent GM. If he is...keep at it Earl. If he isn't, hands off unless something absolutely necessary needs to be done (ie. expansion draft).

JonO
11-25-2010, 02:09 PM
I was only making an argument analyzing the unecessary movement TFC makes and in the process wasting time and picks.

If Cronin and Sturgis are indeed players that can be considered like-for-like, then all you needed to do was keep Cronin (and his cost to us of 1 first round draft pick) and never have the need to trade away out next first round draft pick to bring in Sturgis. But as it is, Cronin was traded away for a song (wasting a first round draft pick) and then we traded for Sturgis (costing us another first round draft pick).
If Cronin was moved to make room for Sturgis I would agree with you, but Cronin is gone (and the people responsible for that move are gone), so that ship has sailed...

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 02:10 PM
This team is putting the cart before the horse again. When will amateur hour end? Either Cochrane is or is not the permanent GM. If he is...keep at it Earl. If he isn't, hands off unless something absolutely necessary needs to be done (ie. expansion draft).

If Klinsmann has already identified a club-style, the the new GM will welcome players who fit in because he will fit in himself. Problem solved.

Now if he hasn't, and they are winging it, yes there could be an issue. But we have no evidence of that.

Seen
11-25-2010, 02:13 PM
He can play LB, DM and CB I believe...

__wowza
11-25-2010, 02:13 PM
He can play LB, DM and CB I believe...

if thats true, then his stock has gone up in my opinion.

TFCRegina
11-25-2010, 02:15 PM
Ok take it this way. Unless we are planning on getting rid of JDG we need attacking mid fielders, to play behind the strikers and provide passes, play makers or we need wingers. Yes mid fielders don't just score goals but if he is a winger or attacking mid or even a classic central midfielder he should more than one goal in 4 seasons. His only goal came from a penalty!!

Add to that he has played less than half the games in any season for any of the three MLS teams he played for over the past 5 seasons it looks like we traded a decent draft position for a journeyman bench player.
:picard:

Except that he's not been a winger or AM. He's a defensive midfielder. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:16 PM
You're comparing apples and oranges.



Both are freakin' delicious and they both make great juice!


way better than pears..... that juice is gross!


:cheers:

Darlofletch
11-25-2010, 02:18 PM
full back? i guess that could work, we certainly need full backs. has he ever played there before.

70,000? can be depth behind jdg, or hopefully if he can pass, can play with jdg, or apparently might play full back. worth a shot i suppose. i'm not too bothered about losing the draft pick, don't know enough about sturgis really to know if it was worth it or not. I know I watched 4 seattle games this year either live or on tv, and I don't remeber him at all, have no idea if he was on the pitch or not.

count me amongst those uncomfortable with earl making trades like this. dumping the people he dumped, fair enough, no problems there, but now he's signing people the new gm, if there is one, will be stuck with? not keen on that.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 02:18 PM
if thats true, then his stock has gone up in my opinion.

There is no doubt in my mind he can play all those position and more. I'm sure he can play RB as well. He's very much a Cronin type player. A utility player who will probably get enough minutes with TFC next year to be considered a starter. He was in the top ten in minutes played last year for Seattle so in my mind that's a starter.

Where I put him slightly above Cronin is he's got a better shot and goes in without fear into his tackles. But overall, same type player. For 60K a year, that's good bang for your buck.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-25-2010, 02:18 PM
If Klinsmann has already identified a club-style, the the new GM will welcome players who fit in because he will fit in himself. Problem solved.

Now if he hasn't, and they are winging it, yes there could be an issue. But we have no evidence of that.

this is what im hoping for

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:20 PM
If Cronin was moved to make room for Sturgis I would agree with you, but Cronin is gone (and the people responsible for that move are gone), so that ship has sailed...


Oh for sure, this is merely regrets speaking. Again...I only made the point because of the comparison made between Cronin and Sturgis.

Pookie
11-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Maybe so...but the questions remain....

1. Why are we making these kinds of additions now? (if Sturgis is indeed a bit part)

2. Who's making these decisions?

I'd rather the club announce that Cochrane and Daso are the permanent choices for GM and coach so that we know who's in charge and can hold them accountable.

Here's a hypothetical

1. Cochrane trades our 8th overall for Sturgis.
2. Cochrane is replaced by the "real" GM
3. Sturgis proves to be what he's been at every other club in his career...decent but nothing special
4. An impact player is selected in this years draft somewhere after the 7th pick.

5. We're left wondering why the move was made and have no recourse because the guy who made it is not in charge.

Worse still....Cochrane is name permanent GM and this is the first of many bad decisions he makes at the club.

Best case scenario-Sturgis becomes a regular starter in the midfield next to JDG and is serviceable in his role but unspectacular but is cheap so we're happy.

Worst case scenario-Sturgis is decent but moves on to another team next year (like he's done every other year) and we lose out on a good player in the entry draft and continue to suck.

I have no reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Fair enough but the other side of the coin is that we wait till we have named a GM and then folks complain about being left out of the trade market or not dumping salary when we needed to.

If "The Coch" is trusted to evaluate our assets and clear the deck, why can't he be trusted to evaluate other assets and bring them in if the opportunity presents?

Section 117
11-25-2010, 02:22 PM
I have a question for everyone why are we giving Jurgen so much credit? Getting either the German national squad or bayern Munich to succeed is really that hard??? What experience does he have to create the infostructure for TFC let alone recommend a GM or coach????

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:23 PM
"The Coch"


:lol:

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:25 PM
I have a question for everyone why are we giving Jurgen so much credit? Getting either the German national squad or bayern Munich to succeed is really that hard??? What experience does he have to create the infostructure for TFC let alone recommend a GM or coach????


On this side I don't have much problem with the Klinsmann contract. Is he a good soccer mind? Yes. That's a plus. Does he know US soccer? Yes. Another plus. Does he have global connections as well as MLS connections? Yes. Another plus. Has he been around many successful organizations in the US and in Europe? Yes. The pluses keep adding up.

Can he fuck things up more than MoJo? Unlikely. Another plus.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:31 PM
Can he fuck things up more than MoJo? Unlikely. Another plus.

dude.... YOU could have been running the club and batting about the same as Mojo did.

Wull
11-25-2010, 02:34 PM
Both are freakin' delicious and they both make great juice!


way better than pears..... that juice is gross!


:cheers:


supply and demand?

Jeffro
11-25-2010, 02:36 PM
Personally I could not care less about trading away a draft pick. We're getting a serviceable player, and frankly, if we're trying to build from the draft, we're already fucked.

Section 117
11-25-2010, 02:38 PM
On this side I don't have much problem with the Klinsmann contract. Is he a good soccer mind? Yes. That's a plus. Does he know US soccer? Yes. Another plus. Does he have global connections as well as MLS connections? Yes. Another plus. Has he been around many successful organizations in the US and in Europe? Yes. The pluses keep adding up.

Can he fuck things up more than MoJo? Unlikely. Another plus.

Roogsy - How does he know US soccer? Just cause he lived there? MLS connections - Proof please. Just being around successful organizations doesn't mean he is the reason or it has rubbed off on him. Could he fuck it up like Mo? it's possible

All I am saying is our expectations now that Soccer Solutions and Jurgen were signed have highten our expectations and at the end of the day we are going to get be let down IMO....

Status quo is what we are going to get

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:38 PM
... and frankly, if we're trying to build from the draft, we're already fucked.

yep.


I'd rather have 'The Coch' doing something instead of being asleep at the wheel.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:40 PM
Roogsy - How does he know US soccer? Just cause he lived there? MLS connections - Proof please.


http://www.soccersolutions.com/images/la_galaxy.pdf

he's a advising LA.

I don't have a link, but he's very dealt with Zigi Schmidt too

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:44 PM
dude.... YOU could have been running the club and batting about the same as Mojo did.


I might be so bold as to say that I would have done a better job. For starters, I don't believe in doing anything without planning it out first.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:45 PM
yep.


I'd rather have 'The Coch' doing something instead of being asleep at the wheel.



Doing something for the sake of keeping busy does not equal productive and does not equal smart.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:45 PM
For starters, I don't believe in doing anything without planning it out first.


then why do you end up putting your foot in your mouth so often?


:D:D:D

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 02:46 PM
Roogsy - How does he know US soccer? Just cause he lived there? MLS connections - Proof please. Just being around successful organizations doesn't mean he is the reason or it has rubbed off on him. Could he fuck it up like Mo? it's possible

All I am saying is our expectations now that Soccer Solutions and Jurgen were signed have highten our expectations and at the end of the day we are going to get be let down IMO....

Status quo is what we are going to get

Is this really the first time you hear that Klinsman has MLS connections? One thing is for sure and a fact, he's worked for LA Galaxy before.

CretanBull
11-25-2010, 02:46 PM
dude.... YOU could have been running the club and batting about the same as Mojo did.

That's insulting. Roogsy is a lot smarter than Mo.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:47 PM
Doing something for the sake of keeping busy does not equal productive and does not equal smart.


but doing nothing will earn us nothing.

The idea that he's not acting with some kind of plan is just silly.
He knows that if he makes some good moves, his career will benefit from it.
That's a motivating factor I always respect, because everyone looks out for #1.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 02:52 PM
Roogsy - How does he know US soccer? Just cause he lived there? MLS connections - Proof please. Just being around successful organizations doesn't mean he is the reason or it has rubbed off on him. Could he fuck it up like Mo? it's possible

Jurgen's US credentials are about as good as they come without actually coaching in the US. He has been connected to LA as well as various Universities in California. He runs camps and clinics in the US. And has been tagged several times for the US national team, many people still believe keeping on Bradley may have been a mistake. If Jurgen is not good enough for TFC, then I would have to believe finding the right guy for the job is practically impossible. With a CV like his, you have to believe the soccer IQ at TFC did jump significantly.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Leaving players unprotected for the expansion draft is one thing. That was something that needed to be done asap because of league timelines.

But now Cochrane is making team-building decisions. Something that should be done by the guy who will be permanently filling out that role. If it has already been decided that it's Earl, make it official and let's move on. But if it has not been decided yet, why is he making decisions that someone else will have to live with?

My sentiments exactly. Moreover, I don't dispute that Sturgis may prove to be a great value acquisition and provide solid depth considering his reasonable salary, but I believe the return for a 1st rounder should be a proven, bonafide starter...

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:55 PM
If Jurgen is not good enough for TFC, then I would have to believe finding the right guy for the job is practically impossible.


reminds me of a saying I heard often at the Supporters Summit last weekend:

"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:56 PM
but I believe the return for a 1st rounder should be a proven, bonafide starter...


OBWhite was a first round pick. The MLS draft seems to be a LOT more hit-and-miss than other major drafts. In the NHL, ever first rounder is a rock. Lots of people in the MLS draft still need a lot of maturation before they reach their potential.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 02:58 PM
ps. After all the other threads of the past while.... I'm loving this one!

nfitz
11-25-2010, 02:59 PM
Lots of people in the MLS draft still need a lot of maturation before they reach their potential.Given the advanced age of those in the MLS draft, you have to start thinking that if they were any good, they wouldn't be playing amateur soccer to such a ripe old age, and would have been picked up when they were 17 or 18 by somone.

Section 117
11-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Is this really the first time you hear that Klinsman has MLS connections? One thing is for sure and a fact, he's worked for LA Galaxy before.

No actually his company worked for LA not necesarily him. This is my point he is more of a figure head a way to get clients in the door. "ohhhh Jurgen is VP" factor. He must know about soccer

I really think we have raised our expectations and at this point in time, I have seen no proof that he is actually making a difference or to the point he is going to make any changes. I expect status quo

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 03:01 PM
http://www.soccersolutions.com/images/la_galaxy.pdf

he's a advising LA.

I don't have a link, but he's very dealt with Zigi Schmidt too

We getting Zigi as coach? ;)

Technorgasm
11-25-2010, 03:06 PM
can he play on the wing?



would he be interested in havin a beer with the Lads in the off season?
lets invite him out. . . ala RIcketts.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-25-2010, 03:06 PM
Roogsy - How does he know US soccer? Just cause he lived there? MLS connections - Proof please. Just being around successful organizations doesn't mean he is the reason or it has rubbed off on him. Could he fuck it up like Mo? it's possible

All I am saying is our expectations now that Soccer Solutions and Jurgen were signed have highten our expectations and at the end of the day we are going to get be let down IMO....

Status quo is what we are going to get

also almost hired as US Nats coach but wanted too much power

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 03:07 PM
No actually his company worked for LA not necesarily him. This is my point he is more of a figure head a way to get clients in the door. "ohhhh Jurgen is VP" factor. He must know about soccer


wow.

...please give some proof that he is just a figurehead, or are you just making this up due to being suspicious? You are stating this as if it's a well-known fact.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:08 PM
OBWhite was a first round pick. The MLS draft seems to be a LOT more hit-and-miss than other major drafts. In the NHL, ever first rounder is a rock. Lots of people in the MLS draft still need a lot of maturation before they reach their potential.

I don't disagree, but the potential also exists for Vancouver to draft someone that will develop into a very good MLS caliber player at TFC's expense while Sturgis may have already reached his potential. It's a risky move by Cochrane and given his interim title, he shouldn't be trading future assets for a utility midfielder that has struggled to remain with the same organization for more than a year...

Section 117
11-25-2010, 03:09 PM
^^^^ Coaching the USMNT is completely different beast then advising a club who they should hire.

Jurgen would have had access to the best talent the US. This is not that this the MLS which we can all agree that this a several tiers below that. So it is completely different.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 03:12 PM
No actually his company worked for LA not necesarily him. This is my point he is more of a figure head a way to get clients in the door. "ohhhh Jurgen is VP" factor. He must know about soccer


and you know how long companies like that last?


(answer: note very long)

Pro Soccer in North America is a pretty small world, and I'm sure if he was just using his name to lend credibility to some company that didn't deserve it -- they would have been exposed ages ago.

Fishnicker
11-25-2010, 03:13 PM
Quite like this signing, esp. if he can play fb. He's a pretty good man marker from what I remember. And no-one said he was going to be a starter. We need cheap journeyman players for depth, every MLS team does.

With the NCC, CL (hopefully), league play, friendlies, injuries, suspensions, you need to have guys like these around otherwise you end up playing Joseph at dm. If Earl the Pearl won't be the GM going forward and is simply shoring up our depth chart with cheap, experienced players then I have no problem with this.

Beach_Red
11-25-2010, 03:19 PM
and you know how long companies like that last?


(answer: note very long)

Pro Soccer in North America is a pretty small world, and I'm sure if he was just using his name to lend credibility to some company that didn't deserve it -- they would have been exposed ages ago.

Does anyone know if Soccer Solutions still advise LA Galaxy (and would that be a conflict of interest in this single-entity league?) and has any other MLS team ever hired them?

Section 117
11-25-2010, 03:19 PM
wow.

...please give some proof that he is just a figurehead, or are you just making this up due to being suspicious? You are stating this as if it's a well-known fact.


I never stated that it is fact it is my opinion. Please show me where i stated it was a fact

Technorgasm
11-25-2010, 03:20 PM
Quite like this signing, esp. if he can play fb. He's a pretty good man marker from what I remember. And no-one said he was going to be a starter. We need cheap journeyman players for depth, every MLS team does.

With the NCC, CL (hopefully), league play, friendlies, injuries, suspensions, you need to have guys like these around otherwise you end up playing Joseph at dm. If Earl the Pearl won't be the GM going forward and is simply shoring up our depth chart with cheap, experienced players then I have no problem with this.


well said.

Proven MLs property, that is still young and hungry
or
draft kid right out of college that has never played pro. .

scut farkus
11-25-2010, 03:21 PM
If Earl the Pearl won't be the GM going forward and is simply shoring up our depth chart with cheap, experienced players then I have no problem with this.

+1 This.
I don't see "Earl the Pearl" making any DP signings before everything's locked up, but I think that his mandate right now is to grab those cheap, serviceable players needed for depth. It's going to be a busy, short season and TFC needs to prepare for that.
Like Parkdale said, the draft is so hit-or-miss...especially at the 8th pick...why not take someone who you know can fill a void rather than take the gamble.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-25-2010, 03:25 PM
^^^^ Coaching the USMNT is completely different beast then advising a club who they should hire.

Jurgen would have had access to the best talent the US. This is not that this the MLS which we can all agree that this a several tiers below that. So it is completely different.

he obviously has insight into the players of the league as well as is knowledgeable of a system or systems they can use, i fail to see the dilemma

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:28 PM
Here are the reactions to the trade from a few Sounders supporters responding to a TFC poster. I hope this trade works out for TFC...

"I was just wondering your opinion on Nathan Sturgis, watched him a few times playing in the middle with Alonso, looked decent player but like to get some insight from supporters who watch him play week in week out.

Oh and good luck with O'Brian White, recent history shows we release strikers they turn out to be goal producers http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif"

"Sturgis doesn't have as good of a Left foot that we were hoping for a CM. Hence why we were surprised that he scored a PK on his left foot and a free kick to Montero for a goal on his left foot."

"Sturgis was definitely a surprise this year and he really saved us when Evans went down and we were stuck with the POS MF of Vagenas and Ianni. He did a good job, but you got raped in the trade. Their is no way that he is worth a first rounder. Even with the 8th pick you can still get some good talent.."

"Sturgis is a good player. The way it worked out for us this year-- he is a good passer, can play one-touch with both feet long and short, good vision. The problem is he is small and slow and not a good tackler. So he was a good complement to Alonso who is very fast and a superb tackler but has fairly suspect passing.

He also took set pieces, and the jury is still out on whether our insanely poor scoring rate on those was Sturgis' fault, or Sigi's, or the rest of the team."

rocker
11-25-2010, 03:30 PM
I never stated that it is fact it is my opinion. Please show me where i stated it was a fact

how can you state that he's a figurehead without any facts to back it up?
Opinions are fine on taste preferences ("Ronaldo is a better player than Messi") but what you stated includes unproven facts.

I could say Stephen Harper is a figurehead politician, just looking to make contacts for his business interests when he ends his run as prime minister. That's not based in any fact, so it's pretty worthless as a comment.

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 03:30 PM
I never stated that it is fact it is my opinion. Please show me where i stated it was a fact



This is my point he is more of a figure head a way to get clients in the door.

Here's one way to state it as an opinion :

"This is my opinion that he may be more of a figurehead."

or:

"I'm afraid that he may be more of a figurehead."

Your post was missing the essential point of uncertainty, with the statement that it is an opinion. It makes your argument seem stronger than it really is, which is an opinion not based on verifiable facts. In fact, it's not really an opinion (which has to be based on something), it's more like a fear.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 03:30 PM
I would be remiss if I did not remind us all that Hans Backe did not have "US" experience either and he did pretty well this year.

And the Whitecaps have decided to go with Paul Barber from England who also has not US experience. It will be interesting to see if he has any success.

Chevy
11-25-2010, 03:32 PM
but doing nothing will earn us nothing.

The idea that he's not acting with some kind of plan is just silly.
He knows that if he makes some good moves, his career will benefit from it.
That's a motivating factor I always respect, because everyone looks out for #1.

+1. It's not like he's gone nuts and spent right to the cap. He got rid of some painfully obvious dead weight and has picked up a few spare parts.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 03:32 PM
I don't disagree, but the potential also exists for Vancouver to draft someone that will develop into a very good MLS caliber player at TFC's expense while Sturgis may have already reached his potential. It's a risky move by Cochrane and given his interim title, he shouldn't be trading future assets for a utility midfielder that has struggled to remain with the same organization for more than a year...

What do you mean he's already reached his potential? He's 23. He's the same age as Cronin and the same age as some of the guys that come out of the draft. So essentially, we've drafted someone with our 8th pick that has pretty good experience in the MLS already and showed alot of promise last year playing on a good team. Since when are 23 year olds in the MLS too old to improve anyways?

You can also say that in 8th spot Vancouver will draft some guy you've never heard of and will never make an impact in the MLS. That's what the past indicates anyways.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 03:33 PM
Here are the reactions to the trade from a few Sounders supporters responding to a TFC poster. I hope this trade works out for TFC...

"I was just wondering your opinion on Nathan Sturgis, watched him a few times playing in the middle with Alonso, looked decent player but like to get some insight from supporters who watch him play week in week out.

Oh and good luck with O'Brian White, recent history shows we release strikers they turn out to be goal producers http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif"

"Sturgis doesn't have as good of a Left foot that we were hoping for a CM. Hence why we were surprised that he scored a PK on his left foot and a free kick to Montero for a goal on his left foot."

"Sturgis was definitely a surprise this year and he really saved us when Evans went down and we were stuck with the POS MF of Vagenas and Ianni. He did a good job, but you got raped in the trade. Their is no way that he is worth a first rounder. Even with the 8th pick you can still get some good talent.."

"Sturgis is a good player. The way it worked out for us this year-- he is a good passer, can play one-touch with both feet long and short, good vision. The problem is he is small and slow and not a good tackler. So he was a good complement to Alonso who is very fast and a superb tackler but has fairly suspect passing.

He also took set pieces, and the jury is still out on whether our insanely poor scoring rate on those was Sturgis' fault, or Sigi's, or the rest of the team."



He may or may not be a good piece of the puzzle, but it certainly doesn't sound to me like there were people busting down the Sounder's door trying to get at him. So this trade doesn't seem like an opportunity that needed to be snatched up ASAP. Which leaves us with the feeling that Cochrane is feeling comfortable enough with making team-building moves. What does that indicate and is that a good thing or not?

Technorgasm
11-25-2010, 03:34 PM
He did a good job, but you got raped in the trade. Their is no way that he is worth a first rounder. Even with the 8th pick you can still get some good talent.."



anyone lese think this is putting too much weight on OBW?

8th in the draft seems like a good trade to me, but using this statement. . maybe not. how many 8th picks have gone on to be real, solid contributors to teams success. ???

Oldtimer
11-25-2010, 03:35 PM
+1. It's not like he's gone nuts and spent right to the cap. He got rid of some painfully obvious dead weight and has picked up a few spare parts.

Well put.

60K is not going to break our cap limit, when he's already shed hundreds of thousands in dead weight.

J .
11-25-2010, 03:35 PM
This guy is a Cronin/Gargan hybrid. He isnt great, not super fast or slow.

At this point its a middling signing, I dont know if he is worth a first round pick to be honest. I dont think he has the upside.

wzhxvy
11-25-2010, 03:36 PM
He may or may not be a good piece of the puzzle, but it certainly doesn't sound to me like there were people busting down the Sounder's door trying to get at him. So this trade doesn't seem like an opportunity that needed to be snatched up ASAP. Which leaves us with the feeling that Cochrane is feeling comfortable enough with making team-building moves. What does that indicate and is that a good thing or not?

I hope its just the case of JK telling him to pick this guy up if he can. If this is who will be in the job long term, then Anselmi must really want to get fired next year.

Roogsy
11-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Well put.

60K is not going to break our cap limit, when he's already shed hundreds of thousands in dead weight.


That is a limited way of viewing this. We shed the weight (room under the cap) AND we freed up roster space.

So now we added a smallish salary with minimal impact on the cap room BUT it does take up a roster spot AND it cost us a first round draft pick.

When you consider the whole picture, the signing does have a significant impact on TFC even if his salary does not.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:40 PM
What do you mean he's already reached his potential? He's 23. He's the same age as Cronin and the same age as some of the guys that come out of the draft. So essentially, we've drafted someone with our 8th pick that has pretty good experience in the MLS already and showed alot of promise last year playing on a good team. Since when are 23 year olds in the MLS too old to improve anyways?

You can also say that in 8th spot Vancouver will draft some guy you've never heard of and will never make an impact in the MLS. That's what the past indicates anyways.

I didn't say he has definitely reached his potential, I said he might have considering the number of teams he has already played for in his career.

As for the 8th pick overall, it could turn out either way. My point is Cochrane shouldn't be making risky moves at this point that involve giving up a 1st round pick...

Kooper
11-25-2010, 03:41 PM
Except that he's not been a winger or AM. He's a defensive midfielder. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Ok so we signed another defensive midfielder. We have solved a problem that didn't exist if we keep JDG, and one of Gomez and Sangyang. TFC does not need help on the defensive side of midfield we need help on offensive side. It has been debated here at length that TFC needs attacking midfielders to either support Dero and push him forward or more quality players on the wing.

If he was signed as a full back great. Hopefully he will do well and we can check off one of those positions as problem positions.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:44 PM
That is a limited way of viewing this. We shed the weight (room under the cap) AND we freed up roster space.

So now we added a smallish salary with minimal impact on the cap room BUT it does take up a roster spot AND it cost us a first round draft pick.

When you consider the whole picture, the signing does have a significant impact on TFC even if his salary does not.

Precisely. I would have a far more positive reaction to the addition of Sturgis if he were signed as a free agent or acquired for a 2nd or 3rd rounder. TFC cannot afford to squander assets at this point. God knows MoJo already did his fair share of that...

Pookie
11-25-2010, 03:44 PM
OBWhite was a first round pick. The MLS draft seems to be a LOT more hit-and-miss than other major drafts. In the NHL, ever first rounder is a rock. Lots of people in the MLS draft still need a lot of maturation before they reach their potential.

Not exactly true about the NHL. Draft position within the 1st round also plays a role.

Your odds of making it a "career" in the NHL as a 1st round pick diminish quite substantially if you are selected later in the first round.

Darlofletch
11-25-2010, 03:46 PM
2003–2004 San Jose Earthquakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose_Earthquakes)...26..(2)
2005–2008FC Dallas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas).....................84..(11)
2008–2010San Jose Earthquakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose_Earthquakes)....51..(11)

this is now the 7th player drafted who's been traded, 2 for international player spots, 3 for allocation, portland got the 22nd overall pick for Arturo Alvarez, a midfielder whose stats are included above for comparison, and yet we're giving up our first rounder, 8th overall? meh. maybe alvarez's contract is high and thats why he's not considerd as good value, but still, seems like we're paying out more than other teams. oh, he's an el salvadorn international by the way.

Pookie
11-25-2010, 03:49 PM
As for the 8th pick overall, it could turn out either way. My point is Cochrane shouldn't be making risky moves at this point that involve giving up a 1st round pick...

I don't have an issue with it. This was Cochrane's position:

“We studied the options that would likely be available to us with our first round pick in the MLS SuperDraft and made the decision that the addition of Nathan is of greater benefit to our squad."

That's logical.

He's been hired to do a job and let's face it, he's auditioning for his career. If we expect him to sit on his ass and play FIFA 11 until someone else is hired... well we are expecting more of him then we'd ask of ourselves if given the chance.

Ownership created this situation and I'd be more pissed if The Coch let opportunities go because he was trying to follow Anselmi's wishes to do nothing but hurry up and wait.

Parkdale
11-25-2010, 03:51 PM
My point is Cochrane shouldn't be making risky moves at this point that involve giving up a 1st round pick...


I think that the draft would be the riskier option. At least with the trade you know what's coming better than a player who's entirely speculation.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:54 PM
I don't have an issue with it. This was Cochrane's position:

“We studied the options that would likely be available to us with our first round pick in the MLS SuperDraft and made the decision that the addition of Nathan is of greater benefit to our squad."

That's logical.

He's been hired to do a job and let's face it, he's auditioning for his career. If we expect him to sit on his ass and play FIFA 11 until someone else is hired... well we are expecting more of him then we'd ask of ourselves if given the chance.

Ownership created this situation and I'd be more pissed if The Coch let opportunities go because he was trying to follow Anselmi's wishes to do nothing but hurry up and wait.

LOL, but "The Coch" may be so anxious to prove himself in a limited window of opportunity that in the process he may have misjudged the relative worth of the assets exchanged in this transaction...

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 03:57 PM
I think that the draft would be the riskier option. At least with the trade you know what's coming better than a player who's entirely speculation.

Like I said, I hope it works out in TFC's favour and we don't look back in few years and lament the fact that Seattle drafted a better player at our expense...

Pookie
11-25-2010, 03:57 PM
LOL, but "The Coch" may be so anxious to prove himself in a limited window of opportunity that in the process he may have misjudged the relative worth of the assets exchanged in this transaction...

Ok.

But do you believe that hiring Klinsmann was a good move?

He was brought here to create a plan that the eventual Manager/GM could implement.

If we are putting faith in the plan, does it really matter who is implementing it?

Said another way, do you want to adopt the plan put in place by Klinsmann and then hire an experienced GM with his own ideas that go against the plan?

I think the current setup is tailor made for Earl to assume the ultimate role. I'd be very surprised if there was an alternative.

Section 117
11-25-2010, 03:59 PM
Ok.

But do you believe that hiring Klinsmann was a good move?

He was brought here to create a plan that the eventual Manager/GM could implement.

If we are putting faith in the plan, does it really matter who is implementing it?

Said another way, do you want to adopt the plan put in place by Klinsmann and then hire an experienced GM with his own ideas that go against the plan?

I think the current setup is tailor made for Earl to assume the ultimate roll. I'd be very surprised if there was an alternative.

This is what I have been thinking all along...

KRO
11-25-2010, 04:05 PM
First round 8th picks for the 10 years from 2000 to 2009

2000 Travis Mulraine
2001 Santino Quaranta
2002 Kyle Martino
2003 Guillermo Gonzalez
2004 Clint Dempsey
2005 Troy Roberts
2006 Patrick Ianni
2007 Jerson Monteiro
2008 Josh Lambo
2009 Matt Besler

Ianni and Quaranta are average MLS players, Dempsey of course is at a higher level but I had to look the other 7 up on Wikipedia.

For a 1 in 10 chance of getting a better player I would go for a depth MLS player.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 04:12 PM
Ok.

But do you believe that hiring Klinsmann was a good move?

He was brought here to create a plan that the eventual Manager/GM could implement.

If we are putting faith in the plan, does it really matter who is implementing it?

Said another way, do you want to adopt the plan put in place by Klinsmann and then hire an experienced GM with his own ideas that go against the plan?

I think the current setup is tailor made for Earl to assume the ultimate roll. I'd be very surprised if there was an alternative.

Everyone here knows I am usually an optimist. I have no issues with the decisions regarding players that have been released. I just don't see any sort of plan in place at the moment.

I see Klinsmann's company being hired in a consulting role on a temporary basis as a token gesture to supporters while Cochrane and Brennan are making long term decisions. I might be wrong but I don't believe that Klinsmann had significant input with regard to any of the transactions thus far.

If the decision was made by MLSE to hire a new GM, a trade of this magnitude should be off limits, period. If the decision was made to evaluate Cochrane during the off season to determine if he can take on the GM role permanently, then why was Klinsmann hired in the first place?

What I see is an organization playing it by ear and hoping for the best...

Miko
11-25-2010, 04:15 PM
First round 8th picks for the 10 years from 2000 to 2009

2000 Travis Mulraine
2001 Santino Quaranta
2002 Kyle Martino
2003 Guillermo Gonzalez
2004 Clint Dempsey
2005 Troy Roberts
2006 Patrick Ianni
2007 Jerson Monteiro
2008 Josh Lambo
2009 Matt Besler

Ianni and Quaranta are average MLS players, Dempsey of course is at a higher level but I had to look the other 7 up on Wikipedia.

For a 1 in 10 chance of getting a better player I would go for a depth MLS player.

DraftSite.com had our projected 1st round pick as Michael Farfan from UNC.

He's a MF with similar size to Sturgis.

http://www.draftsite.com/mls/player/michael-farfan/4625

So we basically get a player with league experience at the same position.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-25-2010, 04:18 PM
ill throw this out one last time.
The reason JK is not currently the US Nat coach is because he wanted 100% control.

Why would he lend his name to something (and why would MLSE needlessly spend the money) IF there wasnt some certainty it was going to be followed?

Why would MLSE only spend enough to attract the supporters/others for one more season when they could have them for decades?

I understand the skepticism and theres reason for it seeing as how we have been treated in the past, that being said its a bit soon and people are jumping to conclusions without any reason.

(+) 1 player has been traded for

(-)5 have been dropped
(-)1 has been drafted

hardly cause for concern.
Cautious optimism is what we should be leaning towards.

Technorgasm
11-25-2010, 04:18 PM
http://www.cruisingoods.com/new/sturgis2bg.jpg



ps

FUCK clint Dempsey!

Beach_Red
11-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Ok.

But do you believe that hiring Klinsmann was a good move?

He was brought here to create a plan that the eventual Manager/GM could implement.




This is interesting, has it ever been done with a sports team? Had someone design a plan and then leave and have someone else implement it?

Most successful sports teams have a dominant personality in charge day-to-day who takes 'ownership' of the decisions.

This will be an interesting experiment.

Technorgasm
11-25-2010, 04:22 PM
Fuck Clint Dempsey. .

. . No phono's

jloome
11-25-2010, 04:23 PM
a 1st round pick (8th)for a guy who has moved 4 times before his 24th birthday.....and was picked 11th overall some, 5 years ago.
I hope he's a late bloomer.

He is.

Think Sam Cronin but bigger, faster and stronger. Good player. Had injury issues or he'd be a regular first teamer somewhere by now. Looked good in limited duty for Seattle.

ManUtd4ever
11-25-2010, 04:27 PM
This is interesting, has it ever been done with a sports team? Had someone design a plan and then leave and have someone else implement it?

Most successful sports teams have a dominant personality in charge day-to-day who takes 'ownership' of the decisions.

This will be an interesting experiment.

Interesting indeed. Why do TFC supporters have to be the lab rats?

Pookie
11-25-2010, 04:29 PM
^ Hard to say. I guess according to JK's company, he has done it before.

Whether JK stays on to see it through or it is handed off to Anselmi, someone will be ensuring that the people are implementing it.

I just can't see a scenario where the plan is created and then abandoned. It is a no-win. If the team wins doing the opposite, the execs that created the plan (or hired someone to create the plan) look like idiots.

If the team does the opposite and loses, we'll all point to the plan and say why the hell didn't you follow it? Again, execs take blame.

If the team follows the plan and loses, the exec that hired the consultant can blame the consultant for the plan. He, the exec, can then adopt a new one (created by him or someone else) and buy more time.

If the team follows the plan and wins, well everyone is happy.

So, if not following the plan is a no win for the guy signing the cheques, I can't see any scenario in which a Manager/GM is brought in with any radical ideas of their own. By default, that probably means a lesser experienced person who is open to the idea of learning a system/plan.

Whether it has been done before is probably moot since Anselmi will end up taking some degree of ownership if JK leaves.

__wowza
11-25-2010, 04:30 PM
hardly cause for concern.
Cautious optimism is what we should be leaning towards.

O-MY with the nail on the fucking head. last year when we pulled up the rug we all gasped at how we were taking apart a team that was a few tweaks off from a playoff berth. we've cut the crap that needed to be cut, and made one questionable trade without knowing the payoff till training starts.

i'd say more bad then good would come of this offseason.

Beach_Red
11-25-2010, 05:17 PM
^ Hard to say. I guess according to JK's company, he has done it before.

Whether JK stays on to see it through or it is handed off to Anselmi, someone will be ensuring that the people are implementing it.

Whether it has been done before is probably moot since Anselmi will end up taking some degree of ownership if JK leaves.

Yes, it will likely fall to him. But the people charged with implementing the plan are very important because it will likely hit some snags. There will be injuries to players, maybe early retirements, dissent in the dressing room, demands for trades.

Can a team be set to autopilot before the season starts and expect to not have to make any changes as the season unfolds? How flexible will the plan be? How difficult will it be for other teams to scout TFC and come up with game plans?

Implementation may even be more important that designing the plan. What looks good before the season starts can look quite different during a mid-summer slump.

ensco
11-25-2010, 05:30 PM
No way they make this trade if there was any chance that TFC would have a new GM before the draft.

Which means it's increasingly unlikely that there will be a new GM, period. If you're going into the draft with no college scouting relationships, then maybe trading the pick is the thing to do.

But the thought of a battlefield promote for Cochrane, wow, I have no confidence in that. This is really a terrible situation right now.

Nuvinho
11-25-2010, 05:30 PM
DraftSite.com had our projected 1st round pick as Michael Farfan from UNC.

He's a MF with similar size to Sturgis.

http://www.draftsite.com/mls/player/michael-farfan/4625

So we basically get a player with league experience at the same position.

I think Sullivan in the potential GA thread said that Farfan will never play in either Vancouver or Toronto.

Sullivan
11-25-2010, 05:40 PM
OK he adds depth.

Is he worth a 1st round pick? No!

In 2011, at TFC, maybe a starter, certainly an improvement over what TFC have had in the past.

Hopefully the rebuilding continues and in 2012 he's a back-up.
Don't get me wrong, I like the trade but not the price. There's a reason TFC is his 4th club in 6 MLS seasons. He's an average MLS player, he not very fast and he's not very strong in the air. He's not physical like Gargan or Saric. But he's smart, makes decisions early, reads the game well. He's got a good footy IQ. A natural left foot but has good ball skills with both feet. Can get the ball out of his feet quick. He's got better than average 1st touch.

He's not in the US national team pool; however he did have promise as he played every minute of every match for the US in the 2007 U20 WC.

At Clemson, he was an above average NCAA player, not an elite player. That 2005 Clemson team was very strong, smart team. He was a major contributor. That team came from no where considering how poor they did in 2004. And I followed the ACC exclusively in 04 & 05 while I was in Charlotte, North Carolina working.

I'm betting Tim Regan and Danny Dichio are raging. That 8th pick had value all over it. Rumour has it they were locked into a Big Ten player.

That 8th overall pick would have brought more skill and talent than what Sturgis brings. Sturgis brings MLS experience in a position TFC are weak. The 2011 draft, perhaps 7 seniors are MLS ready; can't assess the Gen A list other than 16 year old Omar Salgado and he'll be long gone by the 8th pick.

As for the Cronin / Sturgis comparison; Cronin is, and will remain the better, stronger and smarter player. But that's just my opinion.

Watch who Vancouver takes with the 8th pick. This is a bad trade, value wise.

Should have dealt the 2nd rounder and packaged it with another lower pick.

Sullivan
11-25-2010, 05:44 PM
I think Sullivan in the potential GA thread said that Farfan will never play in either Vancouver or Toronto.

Yup.
The Farfan family is out there.... think of them as soccer's version of the Lindros family. I'm hearing they want an American west coast club....

And I don't think many are projecting Farfan as a top 10 prospect, let alone a pick.

TFCin110
11-25-2010, 05:54 PM
I am reserving judgement on all TFC moves until the start of the new season....

jloome
11-25-2010, 06:03 PM
OK he adds depth.

Is he worth a 1st round pick? No!

In 2011, at TFC, maybe a starter, certainly an improvement over what TFC have had in the past.

Hopefully the rebuilding continues and in 2012 he's a back-up.
Don't get me wrong, I like the trade but not the price. There's a reason TFC is his 4th club in 6 MLS seasons. He's an average MLS player, he not very fast and he's not very strong in the air. He's not physical like Gargan or Saric. But he's smart, makes decisions early, reads the game well. He's got a good footy IQ. A natural left foot but has good ball skills with both feet. Can get the ball out of his feet quick. He's got better than average 1st touch.

He's not in the US national team pool; however he did have promise as he played every minute of every match for the US in the 2007 U20 WC.

At Clemson, he was an above average NCAA player, not an elite player. That 2005 Clemson team was very strong, smart team. He was a major contributor. That team came from no where considering how poor they did in 2004. And I followed the ACC exclusively in 04 & 05 while I was in Charlotte, North Carolina working.

I'm betting Tim Regan and Danny Dichio are raging. That 8th pick had value all over it. Rumour has it they were locked into a Big Ten player.

That 8th overall pick would have brought more skill and talent than what Sturgis brings. Sturgis brings MLS experience in a position TFC are weak. The 2011 draft, perhaps 7 seniors are MLS ready; can't assess the Gen A list other than 16 year old Omar Salgado and he'll be long gone by the 8th pick.

As for the Cronin / Sturgis comparison; Cronin is, and will remain the better, stronger and smarter player. But that's just my opinion.

Watch who Vancouver takes with the 8th pick. This is a bad trade, value wise.

Should have dealt the 2nd rounder and packaged it with another lower pick.

Unless you're badly underrating Sturgis. Galarcep, Goff, Wahl all have written about him being a very talented player. In fact, the people who actually watch all the teams in the league have been rating him very highly for awhile.

I'd rather get a known commodity who might be ready to start in the league than take a shot on an eighth pick doing the business.

69Chevy396
11-25-2010, 06:19 PM
I would rather have an average, dedicated, hard working MLS caliber player on the team than an unknown commodity that takes a team a year or two to realize his net worth...eg. O White, Cronin, Wynne.

TFCRegina
11-25-2010, 06:58 PM
OK he adds depth.

Is he worth a 1st round pick? No!



LOL, is a player who has proven he can play in one of the more talented squads in the league (Seattle) worth a 1st round pick, who may or may not turn out to be decent (chances we get a good one are even slimmer)?

Absolutely.

If we have the luck of averages, then that 1st rounder would have been of decent calibre in 3 or 4 years. If we have the luck of the gods, then he'd have been the next superstar.

But if, just if, we would have drawn another O'Brian White, we would be shaking our heads.

I'd rather have a known quantity now, than take the risk on a draft pick. If we assign (roughly) equal weightings (0.33, 0.34, 0.33) to all the possibilities of getting a player in good, average, bad categories, we have a high probability of getting crap.

In reality, the weightings are probably more like (0.10, 0.50, 0.40).

I'd rather have a weighting of (0.00, 1.00, 0.00) than take that 40% risk of failure.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 07:33 PM
Unless you're badly underrating Sturgis. Galarcep, Goff, Wahl all have written about him being a very talented player. In fact, the people who actually watch all the teams in the league have been rating him very highly for awhile.

I'd rather get a known commodity who might be ready to start in the league than take a shot on an eighth pick doing the business.


Then explain why he's been with so many teams in such a short time?

Also, explain why 16 games is the most he's ever started.


As for those of you talking about what we could get at the 8th pick and basing it on past years....give your heads a shake.

How bout looking up all the picks from say...8th-15th for the last 10 years and see how many good players are on that list. That's what we gave up a chance at.

Again...it doesn't really bother me that much but I don't really like that Cochrane is making moves that will influence this team...unless of course he's being named the permanent GM...which I dislike even more.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 07:37 PM
LOL, is a player who has proven he can play in one of the more talented squads in the league (Seattle) worth a 1st round pick, who may or may not turn out to be decent (chances we get a good one are even slimmer)?

Absolutely.

If we have the luck of averages, then that 1st rounder would have been of decent calibre in 3 or 4 years. If we have the luck of the gods, then he'd have been the next superstar.

But if, just if, we would have drawn another O'Brian White, we would be shaking our heads.

I'd rather have a known quantity now, than take the risk on a draft pick. If we assign (roughly) equal weightings (0.33, 0.34, 0.33) to all the possibilities of getting a player in good, average, bad categories, we have a high probability of getting crap.

In reality, the weightings are probably more like (0.10, 0.50, 0.40).

I'd rather have a weighting of (0.00, 1.00, 0.00) than take that 40% risk of failure.


What are the chances that a player gets drafted this year in the 8th spot or later that turns out to be a better player than Sturgis?

Also...what are the chances that said player will be something that we need (ie: Striker, fullback, winger) and not a DM that "can play a whole bunch of other positions"?

If Mo was still here and made this move people would be shitting bricks: FACT!

TFCRegina
11-25-2010, 07:41 PM
What are the chances that a player gets drafted this year in the 8th spot or later that turns out to be a better player than Sturgis?

Also...what are the chances that said player will be something that we need (ie: Striker, fullback, winger) and not a DM that "can play a whole bunch of other positions"?

If Mo was still here and made this move people would be shitting bricks: FACT!

And I wouldn't, because I've come to accept the fact that the MLS Draft is generally shit, and we're better off turning to our academy and pulling players out of there.

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 07:51 PM
Then explain why he's been with so many teams in such a short time?

Also, explain why 16 games is the most he's ever started.


As for those of you talking about what we could get at the 8th pick and basing it on past years....give your heads a shake.

How bout looking up all the picks from say...8th-15th for the last 10 years and see how many good players are on that list. That's what we gave up a chance at.

Again...it doesn't really bother me that much but I don't really like that Cochrane is making moves that will influence this team...unless of course he's being named the permanent GM...which I dislike even more.

You keep rambling on about stupid stats that don't mean shit without any context. And since you don't know shit about the player I'm getting really annoyed that you are asking people to explain something when it's really you the one that should be proving why he's such a shit player.

Anyways, I'll provide context on one thing. Sturgis started the season off in Seattle on the bench. With Freddy Ljunbergh on the field he got barely any playing time. His first start was against us, and in his first 11 games of the season I believe that was his only start. He has some random late appearances but that was it.

Then the Freddy shit happens. Sturgis gets his shot and Zigi goes to another formation. He becomes a starter on the team and creates a great partnership with Alonzo in the middle of the park. Sturgis becomes a starter the second half of the season. Seattle go out and get a DP midfielder, and GUESS WHAT? Sturgis keeps him on the bench. He started both games against LA (in the playoffs). When Ziggy went to a more attacking formation then that's when Sturgis didn't play. But when you got Alonzo (in my opinion the best DM in the league) you gotta expect that he'd be the one sitting down at the point.

Now you give me some insight on why Sturgis is a bad pick aside from looking at his wiki and making all kinds of assumptions.

Oh, and since you love judging by looking at Wikis. Go and see how Seattle started the season off. Shit people said Seattle was having a disastrous year. Now go and look at how Seattle did in the second half of the season.

tfc2008
11-25-2010, 08:04 PM
http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/templates/topklassetotogroen/images/PostHeaderIcon.png Bas van Katwijk Ent goes to Canada (http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/topklasse-voetbal-nieuws/95-bas-ent-gaat-van-katwijk-naar-canada-.html)

http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/plugins/content/mavikthumbnails/thumbnails/100x75-images-stories-op-uploads-bas-ent-katwijk.jpg (http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/images/stories/op-uploads/bas-ent-katwijk.jpg)Katwijk striker Bas Ent, has received an offer for three seasons with the Canadian Toronto FC.

jloome
11-25-2010, 08:08 PM
You keep rambling on about stupid stats that don't mean shit without any context. And since you don't know shit about the player I'm getting really annoyed that you are asking people to explain something when it's really you the one that should be proving why he's such a shit player.

Anyways, I'll provide context on one thing. Sturgis started the season off in Seattle on the bench. With Freddy Ljunbergh on the field he got barely any playing time. His first start was against us, and in his first 11 games of the season I believe that was his only start. He has some random late appearances but that was it.

Then the Freddy shit happens. Sturgis gets his shot and Zigi goes to another formation. He becomes a starter on the team and creates a great partnership with Alonzo in the middle of the park. Sturgis becomes a starter the second half of the season. Seattle go out and get a DP midfielder, and GUESS WHAT? Sturgis keeps him on the bench. He started both games against LA (in the playoffs). When Ziggy went to a more attacking formation then that's when Sturgis didn't play. But when you got Alonzo (in my opinion the best DM in the league) you gotta expect that he'd be the one sitting down at the point.

Now you give me some insight on why Sturgis is a bad pick aside from looking at his wiki and making all kinds of assumptions.

Oh, and since you love judging by looking at Wikis. Go and see how Seattle started the season off. Shit people said Seattle was having a disastrous year. Now go and look at how Seattle did in the second half of the season.

LOL, ruder than necessary as always dude, but pretty much bang on.

tfc2008
11-25-2010, 08:08 PM
http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/templates/topklassetotogroen/images/PostHeaderIcon.png Bas van Katwijk Ent goes to Canada (http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/topklasse-voetbal-nieuws/95-bas-ent-gaat-van-katwijk-naar-canada-.html)

http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/plugins/content/mavikthumbnails/thumbnails/100x75-images-stories-op-uploads-bas-ent-katwijk.jpg (http://www.topklassevoetbal.info/voetbal/images/stories/op-uploads/bas-ent-katwijk.jpg)Katwijk striker Bas Ent, has received an offer for three seasons with the Canadian Totonto FC.
This club comes out in the third division of Major League Soccer in Canada. Ent already played last season in America Dayton Dutch Lions FC. In Dayton Dutch Lions FC was playing Sonny Silooy coach last year.
Photo: Orange Pictures / Laurens Lindhout (http://www.orange-pictures.nl/)
Ent had a choice to go to America. There was also interest from major league team Columbus Crew at Toronto FC, he could count on a professional contract so he dropped his choice.

v00d00daddy
11-25-2010, 08:11 PM
You keep rambling on about stupid stats that don't mean shit without any context. And since you don't know shit about the player I'm getting really annoyed that you are asking people to explain something when it's really you the one that should be proving why he's such a shit player.

Anyways, I'll provide context on one thing. Sturgis started the season off in Seattle on the bench. With Freddy Ljunbergh on the field he got barely any playing time. His first start was against us, and in his first 11 games of the season I believe that was his only start. He has some random late appearances but that was it.

Then the Freddy shit happens. Sturgis gets his shot and Zigi goes to another formation. He becomes a starter on the team and creates a great partnership with Alonzo in the middle of the park. Sturgis becomes a starter the second half of the season. Seattle go out and get a DP midfielder, and GUESS WHAT? Sturgis keeps him on the bench. He started both games against LA (in the playoffs). When Ziggy went to a more attacking formation then that's when Sturgis didn't play. But when you got Alonzo (in my opinion the best DM in the league) you gotta expect that he'd be the one sitting down at the point.

Now you give me some insight on why Sturgis is a bad pick aside from looking at his wiki and making all kinds of assumptions.

Oh, and since you love judging by looking at Wikis. Go and see how Seattle started the season off. Shit people said Seattle was having a disastrous year. Now go and look at how Seattle did in the second half of the season.

Why do people get so offended by a differing opinion that they find it necessary to be dicks about it. Congrats...you watch more MLS soccer than me. Apparently you watch it so closely that you see something more in Sturgis than dozens of MLS team employees over the last few years. You're good.

I didn't read one wiki on the subject, though I don't get what that has to do with anything.

Your logic is incredible. YOU have watched him and YOU think he's good. Every team he's been on have decided that he wasn't good enough for them.

Our interim GM decides that he's worth a first round pick.

That's a decision I don't want him making.

You take offence for some reason and have gone so far as to suggest that there is very little chance that we get a better player in the draft.

I would argue that it's worth taking that risk because..............we need better players. He's a bit player.

I never said he was shit. I'm saying that the acquisition of this calibre of player is not important right now. There was no great need to make this move. Would we really have been worse off if we used the draft pick?

Can that be said, definitively?

Maybe we get the next Clint Dempsey, or Shalrie Joseph, or Stefan Frei calibre player at the 8th pick.....maybe we don't.

One thing is for sure, in my opinion, that chance is more valuable than Nate Sturgis.

Now I'll back to rambling on about stats while you find the next person to brag to about how much MLS soccer you watch....pfffttt.

ag futbol
11-25-2010, 08:16 PM
How was this guy in the Bolton game anyways? never saw it

Pachuco
11-25-2010, 08:18 PM
Why do people get so offended by a differing opinion that they find it necessary to be dicks about it. Congrats...you watch more MLS soccer than me. Apparently you watch it so closely that you see something more in Sturgis than dozens of MLS team employees over the last few years. You're good.

I didn't read one wiki on the subject, though I don't get what that has to do with anything.

Your logic is incredible. YOU have watched him and YOU think he's good. Every team he's been on have decided that he wasn't good enough for them.

Our interim GM decides that he's worth a first round pick.

That's a decision I don't want him making.

You take offence for some reason and have gone so far as to suggest that there is very little chance that we get a better player in the draft.

I would argue that it's worth taking that risk because..............we need better players. He's a bit player.

I never said he was shit. I'm saying that the acquisition of this calibre of player is not important right now. There was no great need to make this move. Would we really have been worse off if we used the draft pick?

Can that be said, definitively?

Maybe we get the next Clint Dempsey, or Shalrie Joseph, or Stefan Frei calibre player at the 8th pick.....maybe we don't.

One thing is for sure, in my opinion, that chance is more valuable than Nate Sturgis.

Now I'll back to rambling on about stats while you find the next person to brag to about how much MLS soccer you watch....pfffttt.

Your entire argument doesn't consider the fact that Nate Sturgis can get better just like we can sign a College player who gets better with time. He's 23 and he's obviously on the up and up. This is the reason I chose to provide context for you, not because I'm bragging about how much MLS I watch. There is a good chance Sturgis is a starter on TFC next year. There is a good chance we don't draft a guy worth starting next year. It's all a gamble. It can go one way or the other. But it baffles me that you form an opinion when you know nothing about the players in the draft and nothing about the player we acquired. And yes, I'm a dick when I try to make a point. You ain't no saint my friend.

Yohan
11-26-2010, 12:21 AM
He can play LB, DM and CB I believe...


There is no doubt in my mind he can play all those position and more. I'm sure he can play RB as well. He's very much a Cronin type player. A utility player who will probably get enough minutes with TFC next year to be considered a starter. He was in the top ten in minutes played last year for Seattle so in my mind that's a starter.

Where I put him slightly above Cronin is he's got a better shot and goes in without fear into his tackles. But overall, same type player. For 60K a year, that's good bang for your buck.


He is.

Think Sam Cronin but bigger, faster and stronger. Good player. Had injury issues or he'd be a regular first teamer somewhere by now. Looked good in limited duty for Seattle.
pretty much all you need to know about Sturgis.

If it wasn't for his injury problem, which I hope doesn't become an issue again, Sturgis was pretty highly rated US U20 player. His moving around has to do with him trying to recover from his injuries and teams cutting him because of salary cap.

Excellent depth player who can play multiple positions, though I don't think he's worth a 1st round, 8th overall pick. Still, I'm happy to have him in Toronto.

ensco
11-26-2010, 07:52 AM
This deal is impossible to defend. Seattle protected Brad Evans, Nate Jaqua, James Riley and Jeff Parke ahead of this guy.

I wish someone had asked Cochrane this yesterday: Shouldn't a guy worth a mid first round draft pick, also be somebody worth protecting in the expansion draft?

rocker
11-26-2010, 08:18 AM
Shouldn't a guy worth a mid first round draft pick, also be somebody worth protecting in the expansion draft?

Well, look at it this way... teams could only protect essentially their starting 11.

Is an 8th draft pick worth a starting player?

I'm not so sure, since certainly the first round draft picks from last year are not all starters. Most likely a draft pick from this draft will not be starting 30 games for TFC in 2011.

And given that Sturgis is a relatively young player who has experience in MLS, it's not an unbalanced trade.

There were some solid players left open in the draft for various reasons.

Oldtimer
11-26-2010, 08:30 AM
I wish someone had asked Cochrane this yesterday: Shouldn't a guy worth a mid first round draft pick, also be somebody worth protecting in the expansion draft?

Seattle has a very deep squad. Your answer is right there.

Oldtimer
11-26-2010, 08:41 AM
Asif explains the rationale:


What may raise eyebrows about the Sturgis trade is the first round draft pick (8th overall) spent to bring the midfielder to Toronto.

But considering that Sturgis himself was a 12th overall pick, just 23-years old and already with six years of MLS experience, Toronto isn’t taking a gamble. This is not a player with an ‘upside’ but rather an established (yet young) midfielder, who can step in and help straight away. Toronto needs that more than the potential of a drafted youngster - Reds have an academy to fill that demand.

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/sturgis-combines-present-and-future

It seems like he may have been reading this very thread. ;)

maninb
11-26-2010, 08:56 AM
^Well said.....I'm still pissed that Preki the Prick ran Cronin out of town, but anyway Sturgis gives us depth in the middle which we need. If we go on a run in the CCL, then we'll need 20 GOOD players, and Sturgis has proven he's a capable MF.

scut farkus
11-26-2010, 10:00 AM
I agree with Duane Rollins's breakdown: http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?625-Sober-Second-Thoughts

Stouffville_RPB
11-26-2010, 10:42 AM
Maybe so...but the questions remain....

1. Why are we making these kinds of additions now? (if Sturgis is indeed a bit part)

2. Who's making these decisions?

I'd rather the club announce that Cochrane and Daso are the permanent choices for GM and coach so that we know who's in charge and can hold them accountable.

Here's a hypothetical

1. Cochrane trades our 8th overall for Sturgis.
2. Cochrane is replaced by the "real" GM
3. Sturgis proves to be what he's been at every other club in his career...decent but nothing special
4. An impact player is selected in this years draft somewhere after the 7th pick.

5. We're left wondering why the move was made and have no recourse because the guy who made it is not in charge.

Worse still....Cochrane is name permanent GM and this is the first of many bad decisions he makes at the club.

Best case scenario-Sturgis becomes a regular starter in the midfield next to JDG and is serviceable in his role but unspectacular but is cheap so we're happy.

Worst case scenario-Sturgis is decent but moves on to another team next year (like he's done every other year) and we lose out on a good player in the entry draft and continue to suck.

I have no reason to be cautiously optimistic.


The interim GM is making these decisions. Just because the club doesn't have a permanent hire yet doesn't mean there isn't work to be done. That is why you hire an interim GM. Life doesn't stop because you aren't ready for it.

If someone finds a gem later in the draft then so be it but the draft has a history of producing players who don't make it or don't play significant roles. Getting a player who you know is effective in the league isn't a bad thing.

Many are comparing him to be a very similar player to Cronin (who we selected 2nd overall) so if you want to think of it in terms of picks, TFC got a player worth around a 2nd pick for the eigth pick.

Seriously the interim GM got a useable piece with minimal cap hit. It's not like he's going out and signing $300+k players or DPs.

__wowza
11-26-2010, 10:48 AM
"This is not a player with an ‘upside’ but rather an established (yet young) midfielder, who can step in and help straight away. Toronto needs that more than the potential of a drafted youngster - Reds have an academy to fill that demand."

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/sturgis-combines-present-and-future

ensco
11-26-2010, 03:22 PM
Seattle has a very deep squad. Your answer is right there.

Not buying it. Look again at that Seattle list. Parke and Evans especially are both journeymen. If Sigi rated them ahead of Sturgis, that means something.

Two statements of fact:

First, Sigi knows Sturgis way better than Cochrane.

Second, Sigi has far better credentials in football evaluation than Cochrane does.

Not good. This is not good.

69Chevy396
11-26-2010, 06:46 PM
Hard to comment on this trade without watching Sturgis play in a few games. We have been lauding players before who, upon their arrival, proved to be useless additions to the club, and we have watched underated players do rather well once here. Dichio is the best example, when he was signed he came here with all of the predictable criticisms, an old, third rate striker from a bum team in a bum league. Now you guys sing his name at every game. Cunningham was derided mercilessly here, and despite the evident problems he faced playing for a horrible coach on a horrible team, he left to continue his prominence as a goal scorer. Point: With the exception of the rare superstar, you cannot rate any soccer player out of context, as an individual. There are many examples of players throughout the top flight leagues who flounder playing on new clubs, under new coaching, different systems, etc, etc...White could score goals by the bushel next season, but playing in Toronto he was useless, I say give this new guy a few games, you might be pleasantly surprised.

jloome
11-26-2010, 08:02 PM
This deal is impossible to defend. Seattle protected Brad Evans, Nate Jaqua, James Riley and Jeff Parke ahead of this guy.

I wish someone had asked Cochrane this yesterday: Shouldn't a guy worth a mid first round draft pick, also be somebody worth protecting in the expansion draft?

Ensco this guy started Seattle's last 16 games of the season. He's a good player, a good two-way midfielder.

The bigger issue is that he's been injured for most of his career. Maybe he's fragile -- that seems a more likely foist, given that he was one of the players (along with Dax McCarthy) whom observers were most surprised was unprotected.

DangerRed
11-26-2010, 08:19 PM
Sigi on Sturgis:
"Nate’s always been a good player. I had him on the Under-20 National Team in 2005 and he played for me as a central defender. He was part of a defense that shut out Argentina with Lionel Messi and Gago and Zabaleta and players like that,” Schmid said. “As he moved up levels, central midfield seemed to be his most comfortable position because technically he’s very good with the ball, he’s got two pretty good feet, he has the ability to open up the game with passing from there and at the same time his one-on-one defending and his ability to win headers can still play a very important role in that part of the field.”

“The most important goal last year was to keep him healthy because he’d had some injury issues. Now it’s just a question of how much he can further himself on the field and run with that position,” Schmid said.

ensco
11-26-2010, 08:24 PM
Ensco this guy started Seattle's last 16 games of the season. He's a good player, a good two-way midfielder.

The bigger issue is that he's been injured for most of his career. Maybe he's fragile -- that seems a more likely foist, given that he was one of the players (along with Dax McCarthy) whom observers were most surprised was unprotected.

jloome, I know he's not a total stiff. But Sigi rated Parke and Evans higher - I know them better than I know Sturgis and they're not worth first rounders - they're damn near waiver wire guys.

What Sigi actually did speaks louder than anything he (or anyone else) says. Sigi knows him better than Cochrane, and dumped him for nothing.

v00d00daddy
11-26-2010, 11:19 PM
Sigi on Sturgis:
"Nate’s always been a good player. I had him on the Under-20 National Team in 2005 and he played for me as a central defender. He was part of a defense that shut out Argentina with Lionel Messi and Gago and Zabaleta and players like that,” Schmid said. “As he moved up levels, central midfield seemed to be his most comfortable position because technically he’s very good with the ball, he’s got two pretty good feet, he has the ability to open up the game with passing from there and at the same time his one-on-one defending and his ability to win headers can still play a very important role in that part of the field.”

“The most important goal last year was to keep him healthy because he’d had some injury issues. Now it’s just a question of how much he can further himself on the field and run with that position,” Schmid said.

Sigi's not gonna speak badly about the guy to the press. He probably believes everything he said above...but if this were a real conversation with someone he trusts and it could be kept private the conversation would carry on after a long BUT......

And he would say something along the lines of:

".....BUT.......we can afford to lose him for nothing because of a, b and c. (whatever his reasons)"

At the end of the day if he was only as Sigi described him as he'd have kept him.

rocker
11-26-2010, 11:52 PM
given all the decent players left unprotected, I don't think it's a really bad sign that Sturgis was left unprotected.

I can go through many team's lists and find good players left unprotected.

Don't forget Sigi left Letoux unprotected last year..........

Blowing Bubbles
11-27-2010, 12:04 AM
I don't know enough about the value of a #8 pick to really evaluate how good this trade is.

But there is a lot of value to having a guy on a 70,000 contract who is good enough to be a starter on a good team, as demonstrated by what he did with SSFC.

Personally I'd rather just keep the pick b/c I believe in collecting assets ...... good pro scouting should be able to find you these cheap filler players to do a job, you shouldn't have to trade for them.

drexel10
11-27-2010, 12:06 AM
jloome, I know he's not a total stiff. But Sigi rated Parke and Evans higher - I know them better than I know Sturgis and they're not worth first rounders - they're damn near waiver wire guys.

What Sigi actually did speaks louder than anything he (or anyone else) says. Sigi knows him better than Cochrane, and dumped him for nothing.


Parke is a back and Evans is more creative than Sturgis; so having Alonso makes Evans more valuable than Sturgis. In our situation, Sturgis would be a good move. We don't have a midfielder as good as Olanzo, so we need someone in the middle than can help out technically.

rocker
11-27-2010, 12:11 AM
here's another way to look at it: the protected lists are not the best 1 through 11 players on every team. It's a subjective list.. it's strategic...

if you asked TFC fans to rank 1 through 11 the best TFC players, you'd get many different opinions. Even TFC fans were in disagreement about who to protect. With White, for example, a good segment of the board thinks he's shit and has no future, while others think he could score in the right system.

Pachuco
11-27-2010, 11:04 AM
jloome, I know he's not a total stiff. But Sigi rated Parke and Evans higher - I know them better than I know Sturgis and they're not worth first rounders - they're damn near waiver wire guys.

What Sigi actually did speaks louder than anything he (or anyone else) says. Sigi knows him better than Cochrane, and dumped him for nothing.

He didn't necessarily rate Parke or Evans higher. Are you saying that we rated Peterson higher then Barrett? Come on now, there is a lot more to leaving a player unprotected then the simple conclusion you are coming to. The point is, I'm sure Siggi is being questioned by Seattle fans as to why he left Sturgis and Nyassi unprotected. At the end of the day though, on a deep team like Seattle, two good players were going to be left unprotected.

BTW - you are severley underrating Parke and Evans. We would've killed to have Parke before Cann came in and Evans was a starter in Seattle until he got injured. They are both solid players and could also fetch a first rounder given the right circumstances.

If there is nothing that interests us in the draft (and we really did our homework) then I don't know how a player like Sturgis can't be worth the 8th overall pick. This is the MLS and that pick could be a player that doesn't get a single start in this league.

You say we can't defend the move, I say you can't object to it without giving us a much better reason then the one you stated above.

ag futbol
11-27-2010, 12:21 PM
If there is nothing that interests us in the draft (and we really did our homework) then I don't know how a player like Sturgis can't be worth the 8th overall pick. This is the MLS and that pick could be a player that doesn't get a single start in this league.

It really comes down to how good the draft class is. Looking at the difference in talent between 2009 and 2010 is remarkable.

That being said, the international signings will really be the "where's the beef?" of the off-season. I see this as a minor move either way.

jloome
11-27-2010, 12:32 PM
jloome, I know he's not a total stiff. But Sigi rated Parke and Evans higher - I know them better than I know Sturgis and they're not worth first rounders - they're damn near waiver wire guys.

What Sigi actually did speaks louder than anything he (or anyone else) says. Sigi knows him better than Cochrane, and dumped him for nothing.


Yeahhh......gotta disagree there man. Evans is an excellent player and Parke, despite his issues in NY, is a starter in this league easily. In fact, I'd rate him above every defender we have except Attakora.

And if I had to protect someone between Evans and Sturgess, I'd protect Evans, because Sturgis is their second DM, behind Oswaldo Alonso. Just because they can afford to lose him doesn't mean they wanted to.

EDIT: oop, sorry Pachuco, kinda stole your point there. I have to read to the end of these damn threads.

Oldtimer
11-27-2010, 03:47 PM
http://imagec12.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/default/empty.gif (http://oascentral.sumworld.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/mlsteam_torontofc.com/news/2010/11/sturgis-finding-his-centre/1768205364/Position2/default/empty.gif/5268354646557a6e347a6f41414b3538?x)






Sturgis: Finding His Centre

Toronto midfielder became an important piece of the Seattle squad.


http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/sturgis-finding-his-centre

Sullivan
11-27-2010, 04:26 PM
Unless you're badly underrating Sturgis. Galarcep, Goff, Wahl all have written about him being a very talented player. In fact, the people who actually watch all the teams in the league have been rating him very highly for awhile.

I'd rather get a known commodity who might be ready to start in the league than take a shot on an eighth pick doing the business.

OK, so with that comment TFC wouldn't have been in a position to select Stefan Frei.

OK, so maybe you've got no use for the draft. I think there is value in the draft, but I’m biased due to an ongoing involvement with a couple of NCAA programs.

On Sturgis...
Sturgis has some talent, I clearly included some upside to his acquisition, but he's an average player, and better than what TFC's previously had. However, he's been deemed to be surplus by 3 MLS clubs because he's an average player, those clubs have other, better, options. But yeah, maybe if he can stay healthy for a full season he become's an MLS all XI, maybe OBW does too!

The club had 6 picks to put in play, and Cerberus trades the most valued pick first!

He's not worth the 8th pick overall. The club has greater needs than
what Sturgis and his 50ish MLS games of experience bring. Again, TFC overpays....

On the value of the draft...
Like the draft or not, it can be used as a tool to add depth and skill.
But if you are looking for game breakers, and players that can take control of a match, look in places other than the NCAA.

I believe that if you are looking for keepers, defenders, wingers and defensive mids, the NCAA is a great place to look. But go to the free transfers and free agency for the more skilled / creative positions.

Here's a story from the 2009 SuperDraft.
TFC had picks 2, 4 & 13 in round 1.
Tim Regan knew Seattle was taking Zakuani with the 1st pick.
Tim, and others, wanted a kid named Omar Gonzalez with the #2.
Guess who Mo, "the draft guru" picked, .... Sam Cronin.
LA pick Omar next with the 3rd pick.
Then Mo takes OBW with the 4th.
Next time you see Tim Regan at a TFC function, ask him about this, he'll tell you more.

Finally, there's a reason why MLS teams don't draft UConn players with 1st round picks, unless you are Mo "the Draft guru". It's because UConn players are not ready to play at the MLS level. TFC is the remedial learner, Julius James, then OBW - both will be late bloomers and need time to develop. All MLS clubs know that Ray Reid doesn’t prepare players for pro football, all except Mo. If you have a choice between a Ray Reid player and, say a Jay Vidovich player, you take the Vidovich player because he’s been prepared for the next step, the pros.

I have confidence in Tim Regan and his network (ACC & Gen A).
I have confidence in knowing that Dichio and Dasovic are tracking the Big Ten, which is the NCAA's hot soccer conference this season.
I didn't have confidence in Mo's arbitrary & capricious draft style.

69Chevy396
11-27-2010, 05:12 PM
The synopsis given by Sullivan is excellent, hard to disagree with anything he posted here, except for one caveat: Omar G. was certainly a better pick than Cronin, but evaluated over time, Cronin is the better pick cause he will likely remain a solid MLS player and Omar cashing a paycheque in Europe within a year or two. So, what does a manager do? Build for the long term with average players, or go for Altidore, Edu, Adu, Omar G, only to see them leave much before their prime? Hence, I think building a team of steady players like Sturgis, like Cronin, is the preferred way to move forward in MLS.

ag futbol
11-27-2010, 05:46 PM
I think Jay Vidovich might be a great candidate for coach as well, along with Sasho Cirovski. Unfortunately neither probably has the larger scouting network in MLS feeders we'd be seeking.

Nice summary Sullivan. Which really asks the question, how does TFC end up trading this pick given the scouting network they have in place? Are there more moves in the mix?

Sullivan
11-27-2010, 08:00 PM
I think Jay Vidovich might be a great candidate for coach as well, along with Sasho Cirovski. Unfortunately neither probably has the larger scouting network in MLS feeders we'd be seeking.

On the contrary.
I think they have the network that is required by an MLS club.
Best example I can use is 17 yr old Omar Salgado, (1993), who is the first player to sign on for the 2011 Gen A group.
He’s bypassing NCAA and goin’ pro. And that’s the key, get them young.
And it’s the ex NCAA players coaching ODP and elite youth clubs that are identifying players like Salgado.

I spent the week before the MLS cup in Tampa scouting the Super Y finals. Every MLS and USL club was there in some shape or form. And so were hundreds of NCAA coaches, recruiters and scouts (it’s where I fit in). And the coaches of these elite youth teams are mostly NCAA grads, and a number of them are also ex pros from MLS or the USL.

Cirovski and Vidovich are both active in the USSF and NSCAA instruction phase for coaching development. So as a lot of ex NCAA players are going through the ranks obtaining the certification to coach, lots of old foes are becoming part of a network. New coaches tend to “mine” the course schedules for preferred instructors. I know I did, and I went through the course with a lot of the same faces. Hence the network I'm privy to.

Anyone remember RPB member, Professor?
He’s now an NCAA div 1 assistant coach, (also a university professor); also coaches an elite Super Y team, and scouts P/T for an MLS club not named TFC, identifying players for their academy (Also a part of the same network I'm in).

As an aside, Cirovski has a decision to make. It’s no secret he wants to coach at the FIFA level. He’s been an assistant with the USSF u17, u20 and Olympic programs, but he won’t get that coveted Manager’s position without pro experience. He’s going to have to make a decision sooner or later. I heard the rumour he had an interest in MLS, don’t forget his mentor is Bob Gansler who was at TFC in yr 1 before the Mo-Show ran him off. I hear he’s on DCU’s very short list. He’ll be very demanding before he signs on with any MLS club.


Nice summary Sullivan. Which really asks the question, how does TFC end up trading this pick given the scouting network they have in place? Are there more moves in the mix?


Thanks.

I’d love to talk with Regan, Dichio or Dasovic about trading the pick.

Cerberus (of which Dasovic is a part of) isn’t a finely tuned threesome....

I hope to get some info tomorrow as I’m going to Akron to watch the Zips vs Indiana tilt tomorrow afternoon.

Roogsy
11-29-2010, 01:11 PM
No way they make this trade if there was any chance that TFC would have a new GM before the draft.

Which means it's increasingly unlikely that there will be a new GM, period. If you're going into the draft with no college scouting relationships, then maybe trading the pick is the thing to do.

But the thought of a battlefield promote for Cochrane, wow, I have no confidence in that. This is really a terrible situation right now.

This is looking more and more likely of what is happening. At the moment, I am making the assumption that there will be no new GM at TFC, Earl is the man. The kinds of moves that have been made and are rumoured to be made are that of a man who is secure in his position rather than acting like caretaker.

Hitcho
11-29-2010, 01:22 PM
What do you really need to be a GM in this league though? A good understanding of the weird and wacky workings of MLS; the ability to negotiate deals well with other GMs for trades and players for salaries and contracts; some basic business nous for how to run a shop properly; and a good understanding of the club you are the GM for from the ground up. Not too hard to acquire that to the extent that Earl doesn't have it already. I could live with Earl as GM.

However, I could ONLY live with that if we then hire a coach who takes care of all football strategy, direction, signings and tactics. He tells the GM "get me this player" or "tell the scouts to make a short list of players for position X", he tells the GM "renew this player's contract and keep it under the cap limit" and he coaches the team and is solely responsible for on pitch matters.

Earl above a coach like that is fine. Earl as a GM who is a "director of football" or otherwise involve din the football side of things, I would be very unhappy about.

Azerban
11-29-2010, 01:27 PM
i'd much rather have earl as gm and an incredible coach than two mediocre people in the positions.

Oldtimer
11-29-2010, 01:45 PM
What you describe, Hitcho is exactly how RSL divided the responsibilities after their shake-up: A GM who is only involved in the trades, salaries & contracts and a coach who handles all of the football matters. It's worked very well for them, and Earl could handle that.

We need a great coach, though.