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denime
11-18-2010, 06:13 AM
Mornin'



Dero has fond memories of MLS Cup games (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2010/11/17/sp-mls-cup.html)


Cann Named Team MVP (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/cann-named-team-mvp)


The Trophy Takes Centre Stage (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/11/trophy-takes-centre-stage)




SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshinegirl/)

v00d00daddy
11-18-2010, 06:44 AM
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/othersports/2010/11/17/16194361.html



Toronto will be lucky to draw 21,000; obviously stadium size is part of that equation, but so is pricing.
Beirne says the tickets are priced fairly. TFC claims its pricing is in-line with the prices of the Toronto entertainment scene — simply because we’re Toronto, it’s going to cost more.


This is brutal. I'm looking forward to going to this game for some strange reason but now I'm starting to question going at all.

In line with the prices of the Toronto entertainment scene?????

Really? The TFC FO just doesn't get it. Fucking idiots.


As for Cann being named MVP...I agree. Good for him.

CretanBull
11-18-2010, 07:09 AM
Beirne says the tickets are priced fairly. TFC claims its pricing is in-line with the prices of the Toronto entertainment scene — simply because we’re Toronto, it’s going to cost more.


Essentially admitting that there isn't any sort of free-market competition for entertainment dollars, but rather a conspiracy of collusion to rip everyone off.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 07:50 AM
I keep saying this, Paul Beirne is not your friend. Just because he talks to you and is nice to you in person doesn't mean he isn't trying to simultaneously fuck you over.

Its disingenuous for him to say the tickets are fairly priced. If that were the case people wouldn't be dumping them on stubhub, craigslist, kijiji and even the fan forums for below face value.

What a prick.

Way to fuck your own fans over. Force them to buy something they don't want and turn them into part time scalpers. Just so you can brag about a fake sell out. Congratulations. You are a business genius. You should win an award.

I do find it interesting that Beirne and Anselmi have moved away from using supply and demand as an excuse. They now try to pass the pricing on as fair.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2010, 08:01 AM
^Your comments continue to paint them as villains instead of out of touch. They've actually admitted as much that they expected people to be ecstatic the final was in the package and you know what? Why wouldn't they? I'd like to point out that if we as a united set of supporters protested when the decision for the cup coming here was being made then this wouldn't have happened. I take some of the onus on myself because I had no idea what was involved in hosting the cup or how past finals have been sold to MLS fans.

And the indignation is justified at the packaging but we can't be surprised. At least they were packaging the same sport this time and not forcing us to go to the calder cup or something.

CretanBull
11-18-2010, 08:16 AM
I keep saying this, Paul Beirne is not your friend. Just because he talks to you and is nice to you in person doesn't mean he isn't trying to simultaneously fuck you over.

Its disingenuous for him to say the tickets are fairly priced. If that were the case people wouldn't be dumping them on stubhub, craigslist, kijiji and even the fan forums for below face value.

What a prick.

Way to fuck your own fans over. Force them to buy something they don't want and turn them into part time scalpers. Just so you can brag about a fake sell out. Congratulations. You are a business genius. You should win an award.

I do find it interesting that Beirne and Anselmi have moved away from using supply and demand as an excuse. They now try to pass the pricing on as fair.

I share a lot of your anger and frustration, but its not personal. Paul isn't a dick, Paul's been hired to do a job that comes with a certain level of expectation/responsibility from his boses. Often that puts his goals and aims at odds with ours. Of course those conflicts are disappointing (I'm sure to both sides), but they aren't personal. Mutual respect - especially when we disagree - is key.

CretanBull
11-18-2010, 08:17 AM
And the indignation is justified at the packaging but we can't be surprised. At least they were packaging the same sport this time and not forcing us to go to the calder cup or something.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't give them ideas!

Beach_Red
11-18-2010, 08:17 AM
Essentially admitting that there isn't any sort of free-market competition for entertainment dollars, but rather a conspiracy of collusion to rip everyone off.

It's funny how they don't even try to claim the high costs of staging a championship game or anything else, they just say, "This is the most we think we can charge."

mastermixer
11-18-2010, 08:19 AM
I keep saying this, Paul Beirne is not your friend. Just because he talks to you and is nice to you in person doesn't mean he isn't trying to simultaneously fuck you over.

Its disingenuous for him to say the tickets are fairly priced. If that were the case people wouldn't be dumping them on stubhub, craigslist, kijiji and even the fan forums for below face value.

What a prick.

Way to fuck your own fans over. Force them to buy something they don't want and turn them into part time scalpers. Just so you can brag about a fake sell out. Congratulations. You are a business genius. You should win an award.

I do find it interesting that Beirne and Anselmi have moved away from using supply and demand as an excuse. They now try to pass the pricing on as fair.

MLSE has def strained the relationship with its fans. It's like we have an abusive father with MLSE, and us as the fans are growing up to be bitter and moody pricks lol.

lips
11-18-2010, 08:28 AM
Mornin'

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2010, 08:30 AM
MLSE has def strained the relationship with its fans. It's like we have an abusive father with MLSE, and us as the fans are growing up to be bitter and moody pricks lol.

If MLSE is the abusive father we're the middle kid that actually opens our gob to say no. The big kid in the family whines but is never heard.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 08:33 AM
mentioned in another thread:


Garber, MLS board to consider changes to postseason format
When the MLS board meets this weekend, among the issues it will discuss is the venue of the MLS Cup and the format of the playoffs, perhaps introducing a single-table format that's used in Europe, MLS Commissioner Don Garber (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Athletes/MLB/Don+Garber) said Tuesday.


MLS will consider awarding the highest-seeded team the right to host the final. The number of teams qualifying for the playoffs might increase from the current field of eight, Garber said.
This is the second consecutive season two Western Conference teams have met in the final. Because the MLS Cup has gone to neutral sites, only one champion has won a title in front of its home crowd in MLS' 15-year history —D.C. United (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/D.C.+United) in 1997.
Garber weighed the benefits of a neutral-site championship, noting that bringing the U.S. and Canadian soccer communities together this week helps the sport's development.
"It would be great to see local fans celebrating a championship in their home market. ... But we've got to decide whether or not we can deliver on that. Will we have enough time to sell tickets? What do we do in a situation where the weather was horrible? I believe at some point we'll be ready."
With the league adding two teams in the West next year (Vancouver and the Portland Timbers (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Portland+Timbers)), Garber said the board would consider eliminating conferences. With expansion to Montreal in 2012 and possibly a second team in the New York area in line for 2013, Garber said it was possible there would be temporary fixes to the playoff format.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/mls/2010-11-16-playoff-format_N.htm

The final going to the highest-seeded would avoid a situation like ours, where the hosting city isn't even in the playoffs, and gives an additional boost to the Supporters' Shield winner.

Single table would be excellent.

guelphguy1965
11-18-2010, 08:35 AM
So the lesson MLSE is learning? Don't host MLS CUP unless you are 100% sure Toronto is going to be playing in it and charge very little money for tickets and hope as hell stadium is full by game day.

Globetrotter
11-18-2010, 08:45 AM
Its amazing how many people kiss Paul's ass or play nice with him whenever he makes a comment on the board here.

koryo
11-18-2010, 08:47 AM
No, Beirne isn't a prick. But that doesn't change the fact that their pricing model is simply wrong. They cannot price a minor sport inline with the major ones in the city. Hockey and basketball are big North American sports, football is not. Fair pricing would include yearly increases to cover inflation and increased investment, be it in players, scouting etc. Well, players' wages are capped and the club has admitted that there is no scouting network in place.

This is not fair pricing, this is price gouging.

The only question is whether or not you're willing to put up with it, and that's a personal decision.

On happier notes: I like the single table decision. Awarding the cup final based on merit makes quite a bit of sense. After all, the league will likely have some egg on its face come Sunday evening. They want to avoid that in future if possible.

[NBF]
11-18-2010, 09:21 AM
im 100% sure that there MLSE employees on this forum.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 09:29 AM
Its amazing how many people kiss Paul's ass or play nice with him whenever he makes a comment on the board here.

the vast majority talk smack about him from behind the anoymous safety of their computers. I'm pretty sure his phone number is listed on the TFC website for anyone to use. Yes there are some people who kiss ass, but it's a very small number compared to the number of people who say negative things about him.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 09:37 AM
the vast majority talk smack about him from behind the anoymous safety of their computers. I'm pretty sure his phone number is listed on the TFC website for anyone to use. Yes there are some people who kiss ass, but it's a very small number compared to the number of people who say negative things about him.

Really? This is a discussion forum. I think we are allowed to discuss how crappy the idiots like Paul Beirne and Tom Anselmi are running the team.

So I'm suppose to call him and tell him he doesn't know the meaning of supply and demand and that he is doing a shit job running the team? That's really going to work. I'm sure my phone call will straighten him out.

Or maybe I should call Beirne and Anselmi and asked them if they need tickets for Sunday?

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 09:48 AM
Really? This is a discussion forum. I think we are allowed to discuss how crappy the idiots like Paul Beirne and Tom Anselmi are running the team.

and this just proves my point -- the majority of people on here are not kissing ass like Globetrotter suggested. Thanks for helping out.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 09:50 AM
and this just proves my point -- the majority of people on here are not kissing ass like Globetrotter suggested. Thanks for helping out.

They still have a lot of defenders, including yourself.

Of course, there was probably a lot more ass-kissing in the past. But then some people actually realized how fake guys like Beirne ended up being. People can only be tricked by salesman like Beirne for so long. Eventually they realize its all just a ploy.

Notice how much more the guy use to post here or on other forums? There's a reason he lays low now.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 09:56 AM
They still have a lot of defenders, including yourself.


indeed. the issue is that there's no 'centrist' perspective on it (at least not much online).

Like with anything else, there have been some mistakes on their part, and some successes. Many of their 'defenders' are just pointing out that it's not a 0/10 situation. I don't think anyone would say they are doing a 10/10 job with things (because they aren't) but it's very hard to give credit when it is due without sounding like an ass-kisser. Hell, sometimes they do things right (like the free party last night with free food and drinks for everyone). Sometimes they fuck things up badly (including the MLS cup tickets). It's all shades of gray, but people are very quick to call it a black-or-white situation.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 09:57 AM
Notice how much more the guy use to post here or on other forums? There's a reason he lays low now.

would you go back to a place where dozens of people were calling you a cunt, fucker, retard etc etc etc?

I wouldn't.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2010, 10:03 AM
Its amazing how many people kiss Paul's ass or play nice with him whenever he makes a comment on the board here.


They still have a lot of defenders, including yourself.

Of course, there was probably a lot more ass-kissing in the past. But then some people actually realized how fake guys like Beirne ended up being. People can only be tricked by salesman like Beirne for so long. Eventually they realize its all just a ploy.

Notice how much more the guy use to post here or on other forums? There's a reason he lays low now.

Where are these champion defenders of all MLSE do? You seem to be attacking anything that's not completely negative. That's pretty one-sided. Not really a weighted discussion.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 10:04 AM
would you go back to a place where dozens of people were calling you a cunt, fucker, retard etc etc etc?

I wouldn't.

I probably wouldn't. But I might start to ask myself why this is happening.

I call Beirne and Anselmi idiots and arrogant for a reason. Because I think they did an absolute shit job handling the MLS Cup and the 2011 season tickets.

I also think people give them too much credit for the success of this team. I still contend they were more lucky than smart. They capitalized on a latent soccer support in this city. If anything, they actually did a poor job because they had 4 years to push this club further and they failed miserably.

But they are sorry, so its okay now.

ochos
11-18-2010, 10:13 AM
I probably wouldn't. But I might start to ask myself why this is happening.

I call Beirne and Anselmi idiots and arrogant for a reason. Because I think they did an absolute shit job handling the MLS Cup and the 2011 season tickets.

I also think people give them too much credit for the success of this team. I still contend they were more lucky than smart. They capitalized on a latent soccer support in this city. If anything, they actually did a poor job because they had 4 years to push this club further and they failed miserably.

But they are sorry, so its okay now.

They should both be fired for these reasons. In any other industry they would be replaced. That's my perspective

DangerRed
11-18-2010, 10:24 AM
MLSE has def strained the relationship with its fans. It's like we have an abusive father with MLSE, and us as the fans are growing up to be bitter and moody pricks lol.

Renewal rates are 90%. Why should they give a shit?

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2010, 10:31 AM
I probably wouldn't. But I might start to ask myself why this is happening.

I call Beirne and Anselmi idiots and arrogant for a reason. Because I think they did an absolute shit job handling the MLS Cup and the 2011 season tickets.

I also think people give them too much credit for the success of this team. I still contend they were more lucky than smart. They capitalized on a latent soccer support in this city. If anything, they actually did a poor job because they had 4 years to push this club further and they failed miserably.

But they are sorry, so its okay now.

What people are you talking to? I haven't met with a single person who have ever credit them for the clubs success. You must run with a different crowd. A crowd you must disagree with often. And it's not "okay" now. It's a stay of execution as they bring in change. If that change fails then one of them is gone.

CretanBull
11-18-2010, 10:36 AM
I probably wouldn't. But I might start to ask myself why this is happening.

I call Beirne and Anselmi idiots and arrogant for a reason. Because I think they did an absolute shit job handling the MLS Cup and the 2011 season tickets.

I also think people give them too much credit for the success of this team. I still contend they were more lucky than smart. They capitalized on a latent soccer support in this city. If anything, they actually did a poor job because they had 4 years to push this club further and they failed miserably.

But they are sorry, so its okay now.

I agree with you 100%, and I think just about every other fan does as well...but its all a matter of perspective. We're furious, but the MLSE bean counters couldn't be more happy. At the end of the day, the tickets are sold (season tickets, MLS tickets) and until their mistreatment effects their bottom line nothing will change.

Their approach of treating us like shit and squeezing every dollar out of us will come back to haunt them one day, but until that day comes they're going to keep doing it. Its short sighted and stupid on their part, but they seem happy to roll in the money now and deal with the consequences later.

Whats disappointing for me is that at least on some level they seemed to 'get it' after the town hall meetings, but so far we've seen a lot of business as usual. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they couldn't change plans that were already in place, but in terms of moving forward this team is on a very, very, very short leash as far as I'm concerned. One or two kind guestures to make up for past sins doesn't square things - only changing the way this club opperates will do that. I'm willing to give them that opportunity. If they let me down I'll be gone for good and there will be thousands of people doing the same.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 10:43 AM
Renewal rates are 90%. Why should they give a shit?

They should give a shit.

By the way, the renewal rate was in the low 80% range, according to Paul Beirne. And they reached that number after reducing the cost of the package 2 times, extending the deadline 2 times, holding town hall meetings and apologizing to the fan base. Imagine what it might have been had they stuck to their guns?

Than there is the waiting list. We have heard from people who joined the list 3 weeks ago being offered seasons.

DangerRed
11-18-2010, 10:52 AM
They should give a shit.

By the way, the renewal rate was in the low 80% range, according to Paul Beirne. And they reached that number after reducing the cost of the package 2 times, extending the deadline 2 times, holding town hall meetings and apologizing to the fan base. Imagine what it might have been had they stuck to their guns?

Than there is the waiting list. We have heard from people who joined the list 3 weeks ago being offered seasons.

I was on the Gold. Bought three in a row in 225 on Monday. They were the last medium greys available from what I could tell, aside from a single or two left behind.

Yes, Reds (even recent joiners) are being offered what's left: dark greys, reds and the two field tables they haven't been able to move.

After the season that we had, with all the onfield failures, if renewals top out at 85%, it's a great result for the ownership team.

If we squeak into the playoffs in 2011, prices will obviously rise for those who weren't SSHs before and renewals go back up to north of 90.

This is hardly "holy shit we're on the edge of the cliff" kind of stuff for MLSE.

Look at their other franchises and their history, then plot that out against the season-seat renewal rates for the Leafs and Raps. I'm guessing the corelation is non-existent.

They have a monopoly over three of the four major-league sports teams in Toronto and I really doubt they even want the fourth one. That's why they don't need to give a shit.

Beach_Red
11-18-2010, 11:28 AM
Whats disappointing for me is that at least on some level they seemed to 'get it' after the town hall meetings, but so far we've seen a lot of business as usual.


That's really just because it's a big bureaucracy, a complicated Machiavellian structure. The people you met at the town hall may "get it" but they can't make the changes themselves, they have to navigate through the corporate offices and convice many other people that the changes are a good idea.

This is exacly why TFC needs a president, not a VP of MLSE running things.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 11:32 AM
Things they got right:



recognizing the role of SGs early, catering to them instead of what the league recommended (soccer moms driving minivans)
allowing for genuine atmosphere, instead of Raptors-like hype over the loudspeakers
authentic-style name (instead of "Inter-Toronto", or worse)
lots of communication in the early days
good academy program
The Nutrilite Canadian Competition (Paul B was instrumental in this, as were people in the WC and Impact FOs).


Things they got wrong:



ignoring the SGs when things were going well (they got arrogant and stopped listening)
not helping with dedicated SG-controlled areas
security issues
scalpers

Things they got very wrong:



RM friendly - timing, rescheduling, pricing
ticket price increases
forced MLS Cup sales
Marlies ransom packs
keeping Mo on beyond the third season
scouting
believing their waiting list was real


On balance, I give them a C- or D+.

Sorry, I didn't give them an A or an F. :D

jloome
11-18-2010, 11:57 AM
^Your comments continue to paint them as villains instead of out of touch. They've actually admitted as much that they expected people to be ecstatic the final was in the package and you know what? Why wouldn't they? I'd like to point out that if we as a united set of supporters protested when the decision for the cup coming here was being made then this wouldn't have happened. I take some of the onus on myself because I had no idea what was involved in hosting the cup or how past finals have been sold to MLS fans.

And the indignation is justified at the packaging but we can't be surprised. At least they were packaging the same sport this time and not forcing us to go to the calder cup or something.

The behaviour he's talking about is endemic to the corporate world, so "out of touch" is all relative. Just because people who excel in such atmospheres tend to act like scum uniformly isn't really a reason to give them a pass for it.

That doesn't mean there's an intent to take advantage of us or injure, just that -- as stated -- he's not your friend. He's there to make money, and if fans get fucked over on the way, the corporate goal is what counts to these people, not the outcome to their customers.

boban
11-18-2010, 12:43 PM
This is exacly why TFC needs a president, not a VP of MLSE running things.
No. This is why TFC needs to be sold.
Real tangible long lasting change will not happen until then. Everything else, for the most part, is cosmetic.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 12:46 PM
he's not your friend. He's there to make money, and if fans get fucked over on the way, the corporate goal is what counts to these people, not the outcome to their customers.

yep.

And even more than that, personal goals (money, prestige, power) trumps corporate goals... so he's not ML$E's friend, either, he's in it for himself. if you can replace someone up the pecking order, whether or not its best for the corporate goals, so be it.

Technorgasm
11-18-2010, 12:47 PM
its s young team and young market and the FO has shown they are open to our input as supporters.

I still focus on that.
being a supporter, supporting my players, my team and my city.
I am not complacent in thee issues and love all the open discussion.
but this constant witch hunt is gettign so tired.

its going to be a long, hate filled, bitchy off season.
and until we get our first win thqt is the environment.

cant wait for the cup final. a game veyr very few of us gave a fuck abotu before 2007

Whoop
11-18-2010, 12:47 PM
Where are these champion defenders of all MLSE do? You seem to be attacking anything that's not completely negative. That's pretty one-sided. Not really a weighted discussion.

There are a couple here but I won't call them out. Those who are here long enough know who's pro-MLSE. ;)

boban
11-18-2010, 12:47 PM
authentic-style name (instead of "Inter-Toronto", or worse)


Inter is authentic.
A very ignorant comment on your part. Things don't revolve around the island.
If you don't like it is one thing, but to say it is not authentic is just plain stupidity on your part.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 12:49 PM
No. This is why TFC needs to be sold.
Real tangible long lasting change will not happen until then. Everything else, for the most part, is cosmetic.

All you really need is the Teacher's Pension Plan out of ML$E. 90% of your problems would be solved right then and there.

Selling TFC won't necessarily solve anything, it could make it much worse. Instead of a benign sheik wanting to pour tonnes of money into his plaything, you might get even greedier and much more incompetent owners. Just ask Liverpool and Manchester United supporters how well they've fared in recent years.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 12:50 PM
Inter is authentic.
A very ignorant comment on your part. Things don't revolve around the island.
If you don't like it is one thing, but to say it is not authentic is just plain stupidity on your part.

It's not authentic because it is copying another team's name (like Real Salt Lake does). It has nothing to do with football vs. calcio, and reading that into my post is uncalled for.

menefreghista
11-18-2010, 12:50 PM
you might get even greedier and much more incompetent owners.

I don't think that's possible.

Beach_Red
11-18-2010, 12:51 PM
All you really need is the Teacher's Pension Plan out of ML$E. 90% of your problems would be solved right then and there.




Are you sure? The Teachers are involved in all kinds of businesses, are they all run the same? It's posible the Teachers made the same mistake that MLSE did with TFC - they put the wrong guy in charge and left him there too long.

Oldtimer
11-18-2010, 12:53 PM
Are you sure? The Teachers are involved in all kinds of businesses, are they all run the same? It's posible the Teachers made the same mistake that MLSE did with TFC - they put the wrong guy in charge and left him there too long.

Actually, MLSE is unusual as far as a Techers' investment goes. Often, they don't hold controlling interests.

It's possible that they put the wrong guy in charge...

boban
11-18-2010, 12:58 PM
All you really need is the Teacher's Pension Plan out of ML$E. 90% of your problems would be solved right then and there.

Selling TFC won't necessarily solve anything, it could make it much worse. Instead of a benign sheik wanting to pour tonnes of money into his plaything, you might get even greedier and much more incompetent owners. Just ask Liverpool and Manchester United supporters how well they've fared in recent years.
No it wouldn't be. You need a brand new fresh clean slate.
You have to totally cut off any connection.
Much like a politician going to Ottawa for a first term. They have all these ideas on how they would change how things are run. Well what happens when they push for these changes? They become part of the problem as the system just consumes them. If you want something changed its better to join then resist.
MLSE is much the same way. Every member of the board has been changed through osmosis. Just being part of the machine has altered the thinking on how the company should be run by someones personal view. Teachers Pension Plan has been on the board for 20 years. yet the individuals of that board are constantly changing at MLSE. Nevertheless, MLSE continues to operate the same way. Bell came and went, Stavro same thing, Tannenbaum, came in mid 90's, then became chairman some 8 years ago. TD changes its member. It doesn't matter. The system consumes the individual.
A break is the only solution.

boban
11-18-2010, 01:00 PM
It's not authentic because it is copying another team's name (like Real Salt Lake does). It has nothing to do with football vs. calcio, and reading that into my post is uncalled for.
No offense but you are ignorant in world football then.
Inter Milan is not the only 'Inter" in the world. There are others, just like there are many FC's.
It has everything to do with football.

__wowza
11-18-2010, 01:49 PM
Its disingenuous for him to say the tickets are fairly priced. If that were the case people wouldn't be dumping them on stubhub, craigslist, kijiji and even the fan forums for below face value.

What a prick.

Way to fuck your own fans over. Force them to buy something they don't want and turn them into part time scalpers. Just so you can brag about a fake sell out. Congratulations. You are a business genius. You should win an award.

I do find it interesting that Beirne and Anselmi have moved away from using supply and demand as an excuse. They now try to pass the pricing on as fair.

nail on the fucking head.

rocker
11-18-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't think that's possible.

Harold Ballard.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 02:00 PM
No offense but you are ignorant in world football then.
Inter Milan is not the only 'Inter" in the world. There are others, just like there are many FC's.
It has everything to do with football.


the basis of the 'international' term was that non-national players were allowed. This is the case with Milan, and most of the other 'inter' teams. granted this was all over a hundred years ago.

calling something 'inter' now (like Inter-Toronto) would just sound like it was trying to steal something from an old world club, much like 'Real Salt Lake'.

and obviously every club team in the world plays with an international roster, so it's almost a redundancy to use the term for a new team, especially one in North America that will clearly draw on international talents.


calling an MLS team 'inter-city name' would be inauthentic because it's irrelevant. While it was very relevant to Milan when Inter was formed (and the break away from AC Milan), it would be nothing but a trendy word for an expansion team to exploit.

boban
11-18-2010, 02:06 PM
the basis of the 'international' term was that non-national players were allowed. This is the case with Milan, and most of the other 'inter' teams. granted this was all over a hundred years ago.

calling something 'inter' now (like Inter-Toronto) would just sound like it was trying to steal something from an old world club, much like 'Real Salt Lake'.

and obviously every club team in the world plays with an international roster, so it's almost a redundancy to use the term for a new team, especially one in North America that will clearly draw on international talents.


calling an MLS team 'inter-city name' would be inauthentic because it's irrelevant. While it was very relevant to Milan when Inter was formed (and the break away from AC Milan), it would be nothing but a trendy word for an expansion team to exploit.
The whole basis of Inter Toronto was to reflect the international makeup of the city, not the team.

And, its not an old world name. You make some points for Milan version, but not all the others. Do some research ;)

Whoop
11-18-2010, 02:14 PM
Then why not have called it International Toronto instead of Inter Toronto?

I know there are a lot of teams called Internacional, Internazionale, Inter but how many are International?

Inter was an obvious reference to Inter Milan despite claims to the international Toronto.

I like Toronto FC.

boban
11-18-2010, 02:19 PM
Inter was an obvious reference to Inter Milan despite claims to the international Toronto.
Inter Milan is the most famous I will agree, but there are other Inters in the world. Therefore its not as obvious.
Just as its not as obvious TFC was ripped off from Liverpool FC despite other teams named FC.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 02:24 PM
Inter Milan is the most famous I will agree, but there are other Inters in the world. Therefore its not as obvious.
Just as its not as obvious TFC was ripped off from Liverpool FC despite other teams named FC.


technically, Inter's full name is 'F.C. Internazionale Milano' so maybe we stole the FC bit from them too ;)

I think that the point is clear though.... 'Inter Toronto' would have just seemed like a ripoff of a much bigger, much older, much more established club and naming a brand new team would have seemed hack.

flatpicker
11-18-2010, 03:02 PM
I would have preferred Inter Real Toronto United FC.

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 03:14 PM
I would have preferred Inter Real Toronto United FC.


Olympique Girondins Toronto Foot

boban
11-18-2010, 03:14 PM
technically, Inter's full name is 'F.C. Internazionale Milano' so maybe we stole the FC bit from them too ;)

I think that the point is clear though.... 'Inter Toronto' would have just seemed like a ripoff of a much bigger, much older, much more established club and naming a brand new team would have seemed hack.
No the point is not clear 'Inter Toronto' would have just seemed like a ripoff of a much bigger .. club. That's my whole point. There are other 'Inter's and it is a common football team name.

Beach_Red
11-18-2010, 03:17 PM
I would have preferred Inter Real Toronto United FC.


I'd like to see the crest....

Parkdale
11-18-2010, 03:19 PM
No the point is not clear 'Inter Toronto' would have just seemed like a ripoff of a much bigger .. club. That's my whole point. There are other 'Inter's and it is a common football team name.

but I bet that 98% of the Toronto market would have immediately associated it with Inter Milan, even if it's incorrect.

There's a lot of teams with 'United' in their name too, but if it was called 'Toronto United' then 98% of the Toronto Market would probably associate it with Manchester.

Whoop
11-18-2010, 03:21 PM
Inter, Internacional, Internazionale, etc is NOT that common.

Grant it, FC, United, SC, AFC is more common.

Whoop
11-18-2010, 03:21 PM
But then again, why are we re-hashing something that is 4 years old?

Auzzy
11-18-2010, 03:28 PM
But then again, why are we re-hashing something that is 4 years old?

Off season...

__wowza
11-18-2010, 03:33 PM
Auzzy, what's your idea of a perfect sunday?

Thrillos
11-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Boban is 100% right, any term, be it United, Inter, AC, Sporting, Athletic or whatever you pick, even Dynamo. Is there to designate that it is a club which is moving towards whatever designation they chose. United, usually for a club that was created by many people "united" together. Sporting and Athletic to show that they are a club that is of the sporting kind. FC for obviously a club that is dedicated to solely football. I would have been completely fine with Inter, because you said Parkdale, it designates a team that is composed of International players. Just because almost every club is like that now a days doesn't ruin the term.

I have said once, and I'll probably keep having to say it, but RSL is the only cheap rip off because you get that term from being given it by the Spanish Monarchy. Real Madrid had to win 5 Champions Leagues to get that designation. RSL, said he we think it sounds cool, lets use it.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-18-2010, 03:41 PM
United usually refers to two clubs that united to become one, much like the spice girls song "when two become one"

Thrillos
11-18-2010, 03:47 PM
^
Actually no....


It is from a club that is formed by a united group

ie. Manchester was changed to Manchester United because the original team (can't remember name) was so far in debt that a "united" group of investor's all invested money and changed the name to Manchester "United"


Edit: A wikipedia search, found the original name to be Newton Heath LYR Football Club

Auzzy
11-18-2010, 04:19 PM
Auzzy, what's your idea of a perfect sunday?

Hmmm.... Make & eat a big stack of pancakes in the morning (not too early). Go for a bike ride with the family. Watch a soccer game at BMO (around 2pm in the spring or fall; evening in the summer). Grab a beer or two at the Brazen Head before or after the game. Late evening is confidential...

How about you?

J .
11-18-2010, 04:25 PM
MLSE set the prices and say thats Toronto market pricing. All that pricing is based off the Maple Leafs.

__wowza
11-18-2010, 05:06 PM
Hmmm.... Make & eat a big stack of pancakes in the morning (not too early). Go for a bike ride with the family. Watch a soccer game at BMO (around 2pm in the spring or fall; evening in the summer). Grab a beer or two at the Brazen Head before or after the game. Late evening is confidential...

How about you?


anything possible after waking up past 4.
:lol: oh how i enjoy off-season talk!

boban
11-18-2010, 05:14 PM
but I bet that 98% of the Toronto market would have immediately associated it with Inter Milan, even if it's incorrect.

There's a lot of teams with 'United' in their name too, but if it was called 'Toronto United' then 98% of the Toronto Market would probably associate it with Manchester.
Just like its incorrect to associate with Liverpool FC.. But heck people do (we have the name and the colours).
But my point is ... (read below)



But then again, why are we re-hashing something that is 4 years old?
The name Inter is authentic to the game of football, contrary to Oldtimers thinking it is not.

Oldtimer
11-19-2010, 12:07 AM
The name Inter is authentic to the game of football, contrary to Oldtimers thinking it is not.

*sigh* whatever.

This is going to be a horribly long off-season.

flatpicker
11-19-2010, 01:51 AM
Maybe we could be:
Supply and Demand FC
or
Apples and Oranges United

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 01:53 AM
Its amazing how many people kiss Paul's ass or play nice with him whenever he makes a comment on the board here.


And probably an equal amount that say exactly the same things here that they would (and have) to his face. What's your point exactly? There are some of us that have had frank conversations with Paul B and pulled no punches. Is that just as amazing to you? Or am I crazy enough to wonder if your amazement at some people's bravery behind the anonymity of a computer isn't exactly mindblowing news?

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 01:57 AM
The name Inter is authentic to the game of football, contrary to Oldtimers thinking it is not.


Boban is correct on this issue. Inter is simply the short form of "international" and the various translations of this term. It is usually used by a team within a particular league that has chosen to reflect a broader global make-up in the team structure in some form, usually in the form of where it draws players. There are many "inters" across the globe and thus can be considered a "traditional" football name for use by any team that wishes to reflect that goal.

Just because we know of one famous "Inter' does not mean it is the only one. Unless people think Manchester United is the only "united" on the planet?

flatpicker
11-19-2010, 02:39 AM
I would have no objections to an MLS team naming itself "name of city" International.
Although, it would make the most sense if it were a city known to have a particularly large ethnic diversity.

Waggy
11-19-2010, 03:30 AM
Seems like the issue isn't the authenticity of Inter, but whether or not it would be assumed to be affiliated with that other Inter. FC is common because it's generic. Inter Toronto will lead people to Inter Milan, as Toronto United would to MUFC. From a marketing viewpoint, tying TFC to Europe vaguely was important, they needed the name to be accepted, but not TOO closely tied to any team or country (or risk alienating other fans). But whatever, that's really got nothing to do with Oldtimers point, which is that at best MLSE gets a big NEEDS IMPROVEMENT at the end of year grades. Again.

As for those defending MLSE and the Teachers Pension plan as owners-

This is the cabinet
Larry Tanenbaum – Kilmer Sports (non-executive chairman of the board)
Richard Peddie – President and CEO
Robert Bertram – Senior Advisor, Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Glen Silvestri – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Ashvin Malkani – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Robert MacLellan – TD Capital
Dale Lastman – Goodmans LLP

Teachers have the most say. From the teachers plans own mandate:

Responsible Investing
In general, Teachers’ believes that companies that are well run, respect the environment, respect human and labour rights and operate within the law are good long-term investments[9]. The pension plan’s investing activities are governed by the Ontario Pension Benefits Act [10], which stipulates that employees of a pension plan have a fiduciary duty to take greater care with the fund’s investments than they would with their own personal investments. All investment decision must be made in the best financial interests of the fund. Teachers’ cannot select or exclude investments based solely on social or environmental factors or any other non-financial criteria. It can and does consider environmental, social and governance factors when making investment decisions, if it believes they will impact the long-term financial performance of a company


That means, to quote ODB, Cash rules everything around them CREAM get the money, dolla dolla bill ya'll. Unless the investments long term health is at risk they ARENT ALLOWED to overly invest. The sentence preceding the one I highlighted says in no uncertain terms that risk, or change, is not acceptable. I dunno about you guys but that's EXACTLY what I want from my owners.

Waggy
11-19-2010, 04:31 AM
My post above has kept me up. I'm trying to figure out exactly what the teachers pension plan owns. The list is staggering, and I'm stopping for the night. Does anyone know a good place to find information on non major investments companies make? Like if they're the minority owners of something, how can I find it? (Not MLSE, but their subsidiaries, I'm digging deep here). These bigger corporations don't seem to detail all investments on their annual reports, only the biggest. Unless I'm missing the info somewhere

v00d00daddy
11-19-2010, 07:03 AM
Naming TFC Inter Toronto would have been a rip off but so what?

TFC ripped off all kinds of things to make it "authentic". Most of which were modelled after Liverpool...as previously mentioned.

Look at the exterior of BMO and the exterior of Anfield.

Look at the colour schemes of each team.

Look at the beer sponsor at the stadium.

And lastly....look at the monicher of the team: TFC v. LFC

So what?

Inter Toronto is not any less authentic than Toronto FC. It's just a matter of preference.

Redcoe15
11-19-2010, 12:01 PM
I would have no objections to an MLS team naming itself "name of city" International.
Although, it would make the most sense if it were a city known to have a particularly large ethnic diversity.
If Detroit were to get an MLS team, that would be the one that would make the most sense, considering they're on the border.

Oldtimer
11-19-2010, 12:23 PM
Seems like the issue isn't the authenticity of Inter, but whether or not it would be assumed to be affiliated with that other Inter.

Thank-you.

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Look at the colour schemes of each team.


:facepalm:

the two most common colours in football are red and blue.
Toronto was going to be one or the other.



and the idea that BMO was modeled to look like Anfield is a weeeee bit of a stretch no?

AL-MO
11-19-2010, 12:48 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/othersports/2010/11/17/16194361.html



This is brutal. I'm looking forward to going to this game for some strange reason but now I'm starting to question going at all.

In line with the prices of the Toronto entertainment scene?????

Really? The TFC FO just doesn't get it. Fucking idiots.





Essentially admitting that there isn't any sort of free-market competition for entertainment dollars, but rather a conspiracy of collusion to rip everyone off.

This is the same guy who was all buddy buddy with everyone @ the 90th minute party the other night.

We know what these guys are all about. They can't hide their true intentions anymore.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-19-2010, 12:50 PM
:facepalm:

the two most common colours in football are red and blue.
Toronto was going to be one or the other.



not to mention theres no other canadian football teams with red and white as their colors, how were we NOT going to pick those...

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 12:58 PM
also, with the HUGE Italian population in Toronto, the name Inter-Toronto would look like nothing but a forced association with a big Italian club, intentional or not. And all the fans of AC Milan, Juve, Roma etc would all be immediately against the team.

it would have just seemed forced and lazy.

P-NUTZ
11-19-2010, 01:01 PM
hey parkie - aren't you in france?

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 01:21 PM
hey parkie - aren't you in france?

Sadly he is back. :D

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 01:41 PM
Sadly he is back. :D


Sadly, I agree. I miss my baguettes and good wine for €4

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 01:51 PM
Sadly, I agree. I miss my baguettes and good wine for €4


For real...I never eat as well as when I visit France. You'd think it's just tourist marketing slant, but the plain fact of the matter is that the quality of food in France is noticeably better. And the value on certain items like wine is shocking. Fantastic bottles of wine for under 10Euro? We're getting ripped off in Canada...

v00d00daddy
11-19-2010, 01:52 PM
:facepalm:

the two most common colours in football are red and blue.
Toronto was going to be one or the other.



and the idea that BMO was modeled to look like Anfield is a weeeee bit of a stretch no?


Maybe not modelled exactly but the brick and wrought iron around the outside of the ground makes it look a little similar, no?

Combine that with our colour scheme, our name, our beer sponsor and voila.

This club did a lot to cater to a certain brand of fan......'nough said.

Red and blue ARE the most common and Toronto has always been a blue town...so why the red?

Why are we now all red?

Can you honestly tell me that our look bears no resemblence to LFC?

As for the Italian population comment...meh. People would get over it. Personally I don't give a shit what the team is called or what we look like but to suggest that one thing is "authentic" and another is not because of one similarity is kinda dumb when we have so many other things similar with another club.

International Toronto would have been just as good a name for this club. A blue and white colour scheme would have gone over well too.

If this were an issue that I really cared about (name and colour scheme) than I would question why it was done the way it was.

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 01:55 PM
^ I don't often agree with you, but this is pretty bang on.

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 01:56 PM
my reply in bold



Maybe not modelled exactly but the brick and wrought iron around the outside of the ground makes it look a little similar, no?

sure, they both look brick and cheap

Combine that with our colour scheme, our name, our beer sponsor and voila.

Carlsberg has been sponsoring football in this country well before TFC. They were Impact sponsors first. They have their hands in way more pies than just LFC and TFC. And carlsberg has never been a jersey sponsor for us, which is what they were for LFC.

This club did a lot to cater to a certain brand of fan......'nough said.

Red and blue ARE the most common and Toronto has always been a blue town...so why the red?

Why are we now all red?

Canada = Red and white, and we're the first MLS team in Canada

Can you honestly tell me that our look bears no resemblence to LFC?

Some, but not them alone. Any red team could be compared

As for the Italian population comment...meh. People would get over it. Personally I don't give a shit what the team is called or what we look like but to suggest that one thing is "authentic" and another is not because of one similarity is kinda dumb when we have so many other things similar with another club.

International Toronto would have been just as good a name for this club. A blue and white colour scheme would have gone over well too.

They never proposed 'international Toronto'. It was 'INTER-Toronto', which is way to close to any team for my liking

If this were an issue that I really cared about (name and colour scheme) than I would question why it was done the way it was.

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 02:06 PM
Nonetheless Parky, the similarities are there. There are many people who point out the similarities between TFC and LFC in various areas and yet people get over it. The same would have happened with Inter, although the connection might be slightly more pronounced. Nonetheless, a person who has any football knowledge whatsoever would have known that "Inter" does not only refer to the Italian soccer club and a very simple marketing campaign (if they wanted to go in that direction) could have informed everyone else who wasn't as informed. All you have to do is look up Wikipedia:

Inter-International. Andorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra)Inter Club d'Escaldes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Club_d%27Escaldes) Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia)Inter Monaro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Monaro) Azerbaijan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan)FC Inter Baku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Inter_Baku) Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil)Sport Club Internacional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_Club_Internacional) Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland)FC Inter Turku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Inter_Turku) Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)F.C. Internazionale Milano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.C._Internazionale_Milano), Internazionale Torino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internazionale_Torino) São Tomé and Príncipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe)Inter Bom-Bom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Bom-Bom) Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia)FK Inter Bratislava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FK_Inter_Bratislava) United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Inter-Brooklyn Italians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Brooklyn_Italians) Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales)UWIC Inter Cardiff F.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UWIC_Inter_Cardiff_F.C.)


All clubs that use "Inter" either in their official football names or in their nicknames. Almost all are referred to in their short-form as "Inter" and none are connected to Internazionale Milan.

Inter Toronto could have worked especially if they would have given it an official name that distinguished it from the Italian club such as: The International Football Club of Toronto.

Either way, MLSE probably saw some of the same issues that you did with the name which is why they probably opted away from the name, but to state that it is not a valid option is ridiculous.

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 02:12 PM
were any of those clubs you listed founded after the year 2000? or in a league that founded in the early 90's?

For the record, I would be just as unhappy with 'United' 'City' 'Rangers' 'Athletic' or any of the other classic names if it was applied to us.

The name 'Real Salt Lake' is a joke to me for the same reason, it's trying to hard to be something it's not.


I think that F.C. is the only thing that is passable, because it's practically universal.

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 02:23 PM
I think that F.C. is the only thing that is passable, because it's practically universal.

That's an assumption I simply don't share. It probably is the most generic of them all yes, but it isn't the only "passable" option. If that were the case, then every club after 2000 should simply not try at all and simply use it's city name + FC as their only choice in the matter. How boring will that get?

ensco
11-19-2010, 02:27 PM
"Inter ___" comes with more cultural baggage than "____ FC" does. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 02:31 PM
"Inter ___" comes with more cultural baggage than "____ FC" does. That seems pretty obvious to me.

summed up nicely.


other examples of 'way too much baggage' would be:

______ United
______ City
______ Rangers
______ Athletic
Inter ______

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 02:35 PM
Just seems like such a cop-out to say "FC" is the only option left. So the next 20 teams that get created around the world should just go with (City) FC? That's more lame...

Just because there is a dominant team with that name does not cancel that term for any other team that wants to look at it as a legitimate option for their team. I guess no team should ever look at putting "FC" in FRONT of their name because FC Barcelona does it?

Parkdale
11-19-2010, 02:46 PM
haha... now you're jsut arguing for the sake of arguing.

FC is in almost every team name, even ones not based in English speaking countries.
Hell.... even Inter's full name includes an 'FC'.

I agree that because another more dominant team used a name (like United or City or Athletic) doesn't mean it should take it off the market, but using one of those terms in an effort to add credibility to a brand new expansion just seems like a bad move.

There is baggage associated with many of the names, and a new team doesn't need old world baggage. Hell, think of all the Rangers guys we know who don't even own anything green - If an MLS franchise walked into the middle of a divide like that, it would only hurt their growth.

Jeffro
11-19-2010, 02:46 PM
The initial debate started, not over what TFC should have been called, but over "Inter" being not an "authentic" name. Whether it would've worked for TFC is another story. I totally agree that it's ignorant to say "Inter" is not an authentic name. Not a name I would have wanted or liked, but that is beside the point.

Roogsy
11-19-2010, 02:52 PM
The initial debate started, not over what TFC should have been called, but over "Inter" being not an "authentic" name. Whether it would've worked for TFC is another story. I totally agree that it's ignorant to say "Inter" is not an authentic name. Not a name I would have wanted or liked, but that is beside the point.


Period...

Ontario Arab
11-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Single Table for me, why is it that MLS has to be different. Most countries outwith S.America have a league format, whoever gets the most points a season wins the Title, quite simple really......??????