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Redcoe15
10-16-2010, 01:15 PM
An interesting piece I found from the New York Times about Toronto FC's struggles and how they are souring out their core supporters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/sports/soccer/17mls.html

CretanBull
10-16-2010, 01:33 PM
For all the people who said that our protest and voicing our anger was pointless...here's our story being reported in the New York Times!!!

ensco
10-16-2010, 01:37 PM
Wow. On several levels.

That is a deeply embarrassing story to MLSE.

It is a very interesting thing that no one from MLSE or TFC was quoted directly in that story. Only a rehash of a Star quote by Anselmi.

How could that be? There is no way TFC wasn't contacted for comment before that ran.

MFG1
10-16-2010, 02:33 PM
To the point , factual and exact. I am so happy that this has made it to the new york times.

denime
10-16-2010, 06:24 PM
We should collect the links from all articles they have been published and email it the the suites at the Bay street. ;)

Auzzy
10-16-2010, 06:39 PM
"Fans falling out of love with TFC" on the home page of The Toronto Star right now...

The Canadian Press has also mentioned today's fan protests in an article published just now, which will like appear in many other news outlets over the next day...

But yeah, the NYT article is the biggest deal.

Yohan
10-16-2010, 06:40 PM
This is pretty embarassing for MLSE. From supposedly the model franchise to this... And all this happened because MLSE forgot (or never really knew) the golden rule in business: the customer is right when it comes to how their money is going to be spent

menefreghista
10-16-2010, 06:49 PM
The author of the article actually writes for the Globe and Mail.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is a big deal that even the New York Times has taken notice of the bastards at MLSE.

nfitz
10-16-2010, 07:42 PM
It's repeating the fiction that Manchester United season tickets are cheaper than Toronto.

Hmm, and it's written by the Globe's TV columnist.

Boy, the New York Times has gone down hill ....

bigtfcfan
10-16-2010, 08:18 PM
haha. this is so embarrassing for MLSE

denime
10-16-2010, 08:56 PM
Yes it is and there is more embarrassment coming. ;)

ilikemusic
10-17-2010, 04:15 AM
Its a pretty huge deal for a multi million (billion?) dollar corporation to come right out and say sorry. Theyre only slightly less cautious than politicians when it comes to expressing judgment on decisions they have made.

Honestly, I think the problem runs alot deeper than people here think. Alot of people here will still re-new. But even with all the anger talk, people here are committed and interested and 'hard core' from a marketing perspective. I think what MLSE is finding is they are making the calls to Joey Casual in Ajax or Brampton and are being told the product is garbage and they just arent interested.

Most people who use this board in any function, posting, voting, whatever, will probably bend over and renew because they really want the franchise to succeed, or they just really love, or feel they have to be supportive of 'professional soccer in Toronto'; and thats fine. But I think those numbers are actually very few. Most people who occupy that stadium are fairly casual and I think now that all the lustre is gone, and theyre being asked to shell out such a huge price for tickes to games that they arent enjoying, people just say 'meh, ill pass'.

All this public capitulation looks bad from a corporate perspective. It makes them look weak and incompetent. I think theyre getting Bills in Toronto'd on season ticket renewals. The price has just become so astronomically out of whack with the quality of the product that people are just passing. Theyre offending the market's sensibilities.

Toronto FC was never the Maple Leafs, but its clear MLSE seems (or at least seemed) to think they are. People are loyal to the Leafs because that team is, as the kids say, 'old as fuck'. People arent going to pay out the nose to subject themselves to such a horrible product after just a handful of pitiful years of existence. I have a partial pack and dont plan on renewing whatever version of that im offered this year. I just so rarely find myself feeling compelled to go to the game. Its a bit of a hassle to get to (though im not saying accessibility/transport is any barrier), the soccer is absolute shit, and the team never wins after July.

And simply based on personal experience, there is zero demand for tickets. Single game tickets are readily available from scalpers, online traders, and even just the box office. I dont want 8 or 10 tickets up front because I know 80% of that football will be unwatchable garbage. Ill just get tickets when it is convenient for me and whenever the team actually begins to looks like a half way competent (or maybe just simply 'not complete garbage') football team

DichioTFC
10-17-2010, 04:35 AM
The main problem for me, which compounded the original problem, is the FO's inability / refusal to listen. Whether due to hubris or ignorance, they mentioned in their open apology, "But most of all, we are sorry for not listening better."

The problem is that they're still not listening. They're downplaying people's concerns and not taking the suggestions / demands to heart.

By saying "most of all," they're acknowledging that not listening "better" was their fatal flaw. Yet days later they still refuse to listen. The comments about empathizing with us are rhetoric, the "apology" was rhetoric the Town Halls are filled with rhetoric. If they're not going to give the supporters the respect they deserve, why should I consume their product?

I would hope the execs in MLSE can look at this from the customer's perspective. We *want* to consume their product, but they're making it damn hard for us to swallow this shit.

If MLSE doesn't find a way to get the supporters back in the stands and supporting the team, I'm afraid that TFC will have jumped the shark.

maximo_rpd
10-17-2010, 08:06 AM
And simply based on personal experience, there is zero demand for tickets. Single game tickets are readily available from scalpers, online traders, and even just the box office. I dont want 8 or 10 tickets up front because I know 80% of that football will be unwatchable garbage. Ill just get tickets when it is convenient for me and whenever the team actually begins to looks like a half way competent (or maybe just simply 'not complete garbage') football team

Anybody who renews should get used to feeling like a dolt. The product on the field can't turn around very quickly and ticket prices in the secondary market have been hovering at less than $10 each. Checkout:

http://www.stubhub.com/toronto-fc-tickets/toronto-fc-vs-arabe-unido-10-19-2010-985527/

Fans are fighting to get between $7 and $7.99 per ticket. This just is not a good business proposition to get reamed by ML$E when other fans are clamoring to sell you a ticket for $7... You'd have to be crazy to renew... See Yah.:seeya:

torontocelt
10-17-2010, 08:22 AM
It's repeating the fiction that Manchester United season tickets are cheaper than Toronto.

Hmm, and it's written by the Globe's TV columnist.

Boy, the New York Times has gone down hill ....

Some tickets are priced more than man u but it depends on where you sit in the stadium. Below is a price list for man u for this season and last season as they freezed the price. You will see from this that if you sit in the medium grey at TFC then it is possible that you could pay the same to get a ticket at man u. Certainly anything above medium grey and you are definitely paying the same as some man u fans or more than them for a product that is not worth even one tenth of what you will see at man u in my opinion. For those in the red seats at tfc well you are paying more than every single person in the man u stadium based on this chart.

http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BCC11A5C5-A17E-4F63-B7EB-02C3BC75888F%7D

greatwhitenorf
10-17-2010, 08:38 AM
Should be obvious by now.

Tom Anselmi has to resign. Has to leave if any positive change is to begin.

Borga
10-17-2010, 10:29 AM
Tom Anselmi is not going to resign or be fired. The best you can hope for is that he pulls himself out of active decision-making over the personnel side of TFC and sticks to the business side.

nfitz
10-17-2010, 10:56 AM
Some tickets are priced more than man u but it depends on where you sit in the stadium. Below is a price list for man u for this season and last season as they freezed the price. You will see from this that if you sit in the medium grey at TFC then it is possible that you could pay the same to get a ticket at man u. Certainly anything above medium grey and you are definitely paying the same as some man u fans or more than them for a product that is not worth even one tenth of what you will see at man u in my opinion. For those in the red seats at tfc well you are paying more than every single person in the man u stadium based on this chart.

http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BCC11A5C5-A17E-4F63-B7EB-02C3BC75888F%7DI'm not seeing that. Almost all Man U prices look more expensive.

Compare to our prices - http://www.torontofc.ca/renew/pdf/2011_Renewal_Pricing_and_Seating_Chart_Oct_13.pdf

Dark grey is $1,048 for 2011. This compares to Blue at Old Trafford (North Stand Tier 2 Centre and North and South Lower Centre). This is £817 or CAN$1,324. Our Red ($1,426) compares to Man U's Red, which is £931 or CAN$1,509. Our Club ($1,825) compares to Man U's White - which is so exclusive and expensive that they don't even publish the prices.

Our Medium grey is $712 which compares to dark grey or green at Man U (£874 and £779 - $1,416 and $1,262).

Our light-grey is $437 which compares to their light grey, which is £703 (CAN$ - $1,139)

Our cheapest seasons are yellow - $395 - the cheapest seasons at Man U are £513 ($831).

Even our new North stand (light blue) is $921, which compares to yellow at Man U £684 ($1,109).

At all prices levels, TFC tickets are somewhat to significantly cheaper than Man U. And their package is only for 19 games, while ours is for 19 games + MLS Cup, which represents 10.5% of the price.

This claim that Man U tickets are more expensive is absolutely untrue, and I have no idea why that people are accepting this claim without questioning it.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of our field-level seats and boxes, etc., are more expensive, but this only reflects that there is a lot more wealth in Toronto than an industrial backwater like Manchester; however these aren't the seats that we are all sitting in ... and they are hard to compare, as Man U doesn't publish these rates.

CretanBull
10-17-2010, 11:32 AM
You have to look at the costs relative to their own economies, not take prices from two different economies and put them in the currency of one of the economies.

Beach_Red
10-17-2010, 11:54 AM
Shouldn't the real comparison be between sports that are not number one in each market?

How much are tickets to see hockey in the UK? What does it cost to go see the Coventry Blaze play the Sheffield Steelers? Wouldn't that be more like seeing the Columbus Crew play TFC?

canadian_bhoy
10-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Its a pretty huge deal for a multi million (billion?) dollar corporation to come right out and say sorry. Theyre only slightly less cautious than politicians when it comes to expressing judgment on decisions they have made.


It's not the first time. Remember Grunwald doing this in front of the Raps crowd years back. The Sun pointed it out too.

"
Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but it's hard to take an anonymous, online apology for being sincere. This isn't former Raptors general manager Glen Grunwald standing at centre-court of Maple Leaf Gardens after a 16-66 season in 1997-98 promising better days ahead. Grunwald's embarrassment was real. And it wasn't about selling tickets.
Delivering an online, rather impromptu "we're sorry" followed by a just in case you forgive us, the season ticket renewal period has been extended, just doesn't cut it. And it get's better."


The main problem for me, which compounded the original problem, is the FO's inability / refusal to listen. Whether due to hubris or ignorance, they mentioned in their open apology, "But most of all, we are sorry for not listening better."

The problem is that they're still not listening. They're downplaying people's concerns and not taking the suggestions / demands to heart.



Towards the end of season 2, the attitude of Toronto FC FO changed. They decided that they now "got it" and didn't need to listen anymore.

But it's not just the club. It's the SG's too.

When it all started, this group was very inclusive, including with non-SG fans. There was no chip on the shoulder, no entitlement.

That has changed. And its a big reason why so many of the original members are nowhere to be seen.

The groups and the club are both guilty of thinking they had it all figured out and didn't need to listen to anyone.

I think both the FO and the SGs need to do a lot of listening and fixing this offseason.

DichioTFC
10-17-2010, 12:29 PM
Towards the end of season 2, the attitude of Toronto FC FO changed. They decided that they now "got it" and didn't need to listen anymore.

But it's not just the club. It's the SG's too.

When it all started, this group was very inclusive, including with non-SG fans. There was no chip on the shoulder, no entitlement.

That has changed. And its a big reason why so many of the original members are nowhere to be seen.

The groups and the club are both guilty of thinking they had it all figured out and didn't need to listen to anyone.

I think both the FO and the SGs need to do a lot of listening and fixing this offseason.

I appreciate the perspective, I wasn't aware of most things you mentioned. I agree that accountability goes both ways and there are many ways our humble little SG can improve as well.

I get the feeling that there is no plan for 5-10 years down the line, growing the club and making it evolve on its own to something better. Recruiting new members, retaining ex-members, keeping current members. I think we're too satisfied with our current position and therefore we no longer strive to improve.

I know we have ~500 paid members. But I would really like to see that increase 10X to ~5000. Obviously distractions like results are always problematic, but first a plan to grow the group needs to be created. The results will change, the players will change, our luck will change. We need our group to change as well, for the better.

Boris
10-17-2010, 12:33 PM
Towards the end of season 2, the attitude of Toronto FC FO changed. They decided that they now "got it" and didn't need to listen anymore.

But it's not just the club. It's the SG's too.

When it all started, this group was very inclusive, including with non-SG fans. There was no chip on the shoulder, no entitlement.

That has changed. And its a big reason why so many of the original members are nowhere to be seen.

The groups and the club are both guilty of thinking they had it all figured out and didn't need to listen to anyone.

I think both the FO and the SGs need to do a lot of listening and fixing this offseason.

BANG ON!

As you know i have worked very hard over the past year to really listen to the members as best as i can. You are also aware that this off season, the group will really be working on getting back to where we were. The inclusion of everyone and the overall unity that was lost.

That is where my commitment will be in this off season.

DichioTFC
10-17-2010, 12:41 PM
BANG ON!

As you know i have worked very hard over the past year to really listen to the members as best as i can. You are also aware that this off season, the group will really be working on getting back to where we were. The inclusion of everyone and the overall unity that was lost.

That is where my commitment will be in this off season.

I haven't always agreed with Boris' decisions in the past, but I'm damn proud to have him leading the way right now.

If I could make one suggestion, it would be for RPBs to get to know each other away from TFC, away from futbol, maybe even away from sports altogether. Just get to know one another in a social environment. If something like that could be organized in the winter, I would be very happy to be a part of it.

Boris
10-17-2010, 12:43 PM
I haven't always agreed with Boris' decisions in the past, but I'm damn proud to have him leading the way right now.

If I could make one suggestion, it would be for RPBs to get to know each other away from TFC, away from futbol, maybe even away from sports altogether. Just get to know one another in a social environment. If something like that could be organized in the winter, I would be very happy to be a part of it.

totally agreed.

ive been pushing for 'get to know our rpb's night'. the issue is really timing. I am working on really setting up some pub nights for that.

I am thinking of even going back to using name tags with real names and board names so we can put a face to the name...

Red Rat
10-17-2010, 12:46 PM
It's not the first time. Remember Grunwald doing this in front of the Raps crowd years back. The Sun pointed it out too.

"
Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but it's hard to take an anonymous, online apology for being sincere. This isn't former Raptors general manager Glen Grunwald standing at centre-court of Maple Leaf Gardens after a 16-66 season in 1997-98 promising better days ahead. Grunwald's embarrassment was real. And it wasn't about selling tickets.
Delivering an online, rather impromptu "we're sorry" followed by a just in case you forgive us, the season ticket renewal period has been extended, just doesn't cut it. And it get's better."



Towards the end of season 2, the attitude of Toronto FC FO changed. They decided that they now "got it" and didn't need to listen anymore.

But it's not just the club. It's the SG's too.

When it all started, this group was very inclusive, including with non-SG fans. There was no chip on the shoulder, no entitlement.

That has changed. And its a big reason why so many of the original members are nowhere to be seen.

The groups and the club are both guilty of thinking they had it all figured out and didn't need to listen to anyone.

I think both the FO and the SGs need to do a lot of listening and fixing this offseason.

No need to quote again, but you are right

nfitz
10-17-2010, 12:48 PM
You have to look at the costs relative to their own economies, not take prices from two different economies and put them in the currency of one of the economies.Give how much more wealth there is in Toronto and how higher salaries are in Toronto than Manchester, I'm not sure how this helps the case that Manchester tickets are more expensive! We are talking Manchester here, not Chelsea!

The claim that Manchester United tickets are cheaper than Toronto tickets is absolutely absurd and without any basis.

canadian_bhoy
10-17-2010, 12:51 PM
:thumbsup:
BANG ON!

As you know i have worked very hard over the past year to really listen to the members as best as i can. You are also aware that this off season, the group will really be working on getting back to where we were. The inclusion of everyone and the overall unity that was lost.

That is where my commitment will be in this off season.

Red Rat
10-17-2010, 12:54 PM
Give how much more wealth there is in Toronto and how higher salaries are in Toronto than Manchester, I'm not sure how this helps the case that Manchester tickets are more expensive! We are talking Manchester here, not Chelsea!

The claim that Manchester United tickets are cheaper than Toronto tickets is absolutely absurd and without any basis.

Canadians "Disposable Income" is far lower than any other country so how come ours has to be so high? ML$E is hoping to tap into the corporate world not the true fans.

nfitz
10-17-2010, 12:55 PM
Canadians "Disposable Income" is far lower than any other country so how come ours has to be so high?I can think of many, many countries where disposable income is lower than Canada. We have one of the highest disposable incomes in the world!

CretanBull
10-17-2010, 12:56 PM
Give how much more wealth there is in Toronto and how higher salaries are in Toronto than Manchester, I'm not sure how this helps the case that Manchester tickets are more expensive! We are talking Manchester here, not Chelsea!


It's not like people from Manchester are buying Man U season tickets...I can't be bothered to find it now, but do a google search for Man United's season ticket holders area codes - more than 50% of them don't live in Manchester.

nfitz
10-17-2010, 12:59 PM
It's not like people from Manchester are buying Man U season tickets...I can't be bothered to find it now, but do a google search for Man United's season ticket holders area codes - more than 50% of them don't live in Manchester.Precisely. Manchester United tickets have become so expensive, that they've priced out the locals.

Our cheapest seasons are $395 next year. Theirs are $831 this year for less games.

DichioTFC
10-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Canadians "Disposable Income" is far lower than any other country so how come ours has to be so high? ML$E is hoping to tap into the corporate world not the true fans.

Forget Canada, but Toronto's disposable income is on par with some of the world's first class cities. I think someone said earlier this week that the GTA has the 4th largest market-base in North America (I would argue that its top 10, but still).

ensco
10-17-2010, 02:23 PM
I read the paper edition of the NYT most every Sunday. This story is more prominently displayed the 90% of soccer stories ever are in the NYT. Spread across almost the entire lower half of the 10th page of the sports section.

torontocelt
10-17-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm not seeing that. Almost all Man U prices look more expensive.

Compare to our prices - http://www.torontofc.ca/renew/pdf/2011_Renewal_Pricing_and_Seating_Chart_Oct_13.pdf

Dark grey is $1,048 for 2011. This compares to Blue at Old Trafford (North Stand Tier 2 Centre and North and South Lower Centre). This is £817 or CAN$1,324. Our Red ($1,426) compares to Man U's Red, which is £931 or CAN$1,509. Our Club ($1,825) compares to Man U's White - which is so exclusive and expensive that they don't even publish the prices.

Our Medium grey is $712 which compares to dark grey or green at Man U (£874 and £779 - $1,416 and $1,262).

Our light-grey is $437 which compares to their light grey, which is £703 (CAN$ - $1,139)

Our cheapest seasons are yellow - $395 - the cheapest seasons at Man U are £513 ($831).

Even our new North stand (light blue) is $921, which compares to yellow at Man U £684 ($1,109).

At all prices levels, TFC tickets are somewhat to significantly cheaper than Man U. And their package is only for 19 games, while ours is for 19 games + MLS Cup, which represents 10.5% of the price.

This claim that Man U tickets are more expensive is absolutely untrue, and I have no idea why that people are accepting this claim without questioning it.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of our field-level seats and boxes, etc., are more expensive, but this only reflects that there is a lot more wealth in Toronto than an industrial backwater like Manchester; however these aren't the seats that we are all sitting in ... and they are hard to compare, as Man U doesn't publish these rates.

You are comparing section by section, I'm not. I wouldn't care where I sat in Old Trafford as the quality on the pitch would be so far beyond what you see at tfc that the on field product is not even comparable. If someone says they pay more for their seasons than some people at Old Trafford then it can definitely be true as long as you are going by price and price only. Really it all comes down to how you manipulate the data.

CretanBull
10-17-2010, 02:42 PM
Precisely. Manchester United tickets have become so expensive, that they've priced out the locals.

Our cheapest seasons are $395 next year. Theirs are $831 this year for less games.

They haven't priced out the locals - its been that way for atleast 30 years. People who live in Manchester support City. Man U gets its support from some of the suburbs, London and the rest of the world.

And again, comparing prices in Canadian dollars is meaningless. What a ticket in England costs in Canadian dollars is as relevant as what a TFC ticket costs in Mexican Pesos. Any real comparison has to be made relative to their native economies and not using the currency of one economy to place a value on the other.

I can get a full meal in Bangladesh for less than $1 Canadian, that doesn't mean that food in Bangladesh is really cheap, it means Canada and Bangladesh have different economies.

torontocelt
10-17-2010, 02:52 PM
How different is the economy in Manchester to that in Toronto, I have no idea? What is the average yearly wage in Toronto? I know that Celtic price their season at 550 pounds or so and that is for a far inferior team in a far inferior league. Uniteds are about 700 pounds on average and reckon that is a pretty fair price to pay for watching a very high quality team and some very high quality opposing teams. What we can all agree on is that the quality on the pitch in TO is not even a tenth of what you will see at Man U although all the talk of comparing prices is a bit stupid as it doesn't matter at all.

CretanBull
10-17-2010, 02:56 PM
I'm a Leeds supporter so for the last few years I've watched a lot of Championship and FL1 games and the MLS isn't as good as either of them. The MLS has individual players who are better, and maybe a few teams who might be better but as a league from top to bottom the MLS doesn't compete with 3rd division English football.

Red CB Toronto
10-17-2010, 03:53 PM
When I went on my soccer tour of England last year, 16 games in five weeks the most I spent on a ticket was 40 pounds at Stamford Bridge, anything below the premier league was 10-20 pounds, I saw games as far down the chain as the Isthmian Premier League, which is a 7th division league. Value is what ever each an individual sets it at in their own mind.

Macksam
10-17-2010, 04:42 PM
How different is the economy in Manchester to that in Toronto, I have no idea? What is the average yearly wage in Toronto? I know that Celtic price their season at 550 pounds or so and that is for a far inferior team in a far inferior league. Uniteds are about 700 pounds on average and reckon that is a pretty fair price to pay for watching a very high quality team and some very high quality opposing teams. What we can all agree on is that the quality on the pitch in TO is not even a tenth of what you will see at Man U although all the talk of comparing prices is a bit stupid as it doesn't matter at all.
Well, if we look at it like that, Toronto pretty much trumps any city in Britain.

torontocelt
10-17-2010, 08:20 PM
Well, if we look at it like that, Toronto pretty much trumps any city in Britain.

I really have no idea, what are you basing this on, just wondering? I know that when I stayed in Edinburgh I would have been on the same money as I am now but housing was way cheaper in Edinburgh. Food etc was cheaper also in Edinburgh than here as is transit. Clothes are pretty much the same as here and alcohol is way cheaper in the uk. Travel is cheaper in the uk ie flights etc and going on holiday abroad can be cheaper as there is so much competition in Europe for holidays. Concerts etc are cheaper generally but not by too much.

I guess it depends how much money people are on in Toronto, what is supposed to be the average salary here?

Macksam
10-17-2010, 09:13 PM
I really have no idea, what are you basing this on, just wondering? I know that when I stayed in Edinburgh I would have been on the same money as I am now but housing was way cheaper in Edinburgh. Food etc was cheaper also in Edinburgh than here as is transit. Clothes are pretty much the same as here and alcohol is way cheaper in the uk. Travel is cheaper in the uk ie flights etc and going on holiday abroad can be cheaper as there is so much competition in Europe for holidays. Concerts etc are cheaper generally but not by too much.

I guess it depends how much money people are on in Toronto, what is supposed to be the average salary here?
Sorry for not being specific, I was just talking about the economy in general. However, you seem to talking about cost of living, which would also be another indication of why prices are high here in general.

mdc 77
10-18-2010, 08:32 AM
Towards the end of season 2, the attitude of Toronto FC FO changed. They decided that they now "got it" and didn't need to listen anymore.

But it's not just the club. It's the SG's too.

When it all started, this group was very inclusive, including with non-SG fans. There was no chip on the shoulder, no entitlement.

That has changed. And its a big reason why so many of the original members are nowhere to be seen.

The groups and the club are both guilty of thinking they had it all figured out and didn't need to listen to anyone.

I think both the FO and the SGs need to do a lot of listening and fixing this offseason.

Well said, could not agree more.

Roogsy
10-18-2010, 08:44 AM
We should collect the links from all articles they have been published and email it the the suites at the Bay street. ;)


Or print them out, put them in a big folder and hand Paul B and Tom A a copy each.

Roogsy
10-18-2010, 08:47 AM
Give how much more wealth there is in Toronto and how higher salaries are in Toronto than Manchester, I'm not sure how this helps the case that Manchester tickets are more expensive! We are talking Manchester here, not Chelsea!

Wealth in Toronto? What are we, the Dubai of North America?

Toronto is no more well off than most of the big cities in North America. While we may have endured a milder recession than our neighbours to the south overall, we are a much smaller economy and just as much a working class economy than the big cities in the US that are all seeing much cheaper MLS pricing structures.

nfitz
10-18-2010, 12:20 PM
Wealth in Toronto? What are we, the Dubai of North America?

Toronto is no more well off than most of the big cities in North America. While we may have endured a milder recession than our neighbours to the south overall, we are a much smaller economy and just as much a working class economy than the big cities in the US that are all seeing much cheaper MLS pricing structures.All I'm saying is that there are wealthy people in Toronto. And with a population in Toronto and area of over 8 million people, it only takes a few wealthy soccer nuts to sell out the 500 clubs seats.

Have you not seen some of the houses around the Bridle Path or in Caledon?

pekduck
10-18-2010, 12:26 PM
All I'm saying is that there are wealthy people in Toronto. And with a population in Toronto and area of over 8 million people, it only takes a few wealthy soccer nuts to sell out the 500 clubs seats.

Have you not seen some of the houses around the Bridle Path or in Caledon?

Now, find me 500 soccer nuts who live on Bridle Path. :rolleyes:

nobodybeatsthewiz
10-18-2010, 12:27 PM
Have you not seen some of the houses around the Bridle Path or in Caledon?


bolton represent!!! :D

Roogsy
10-18-2010, 12:45 PM
Caledon is Brampton my brother... :D

maninb
10-18-2010, 02:58 PM
"Travel is cheaper in the uk ie flights etc and going on holiday abroad can be cheaper"

Certainly not if they have to travel to the Caribbean...we pay 50-60% LESS than those travelling from the UK to resorts down South...just got back from a resort in mexico...cost us $800 for the week, my cousins from london paid $1500...

CretanBull
10-18-2010, 03:20 PM
"Travel is cheaper in the uk ie flights etc and going on holiday abroad can be cheaper"

Certainly not if they have to travel to the Caribbean...we pay 50-60% LESS than those travelling from the UK to resorts down South...just got back from a resort in mexico...cost us $800 for the week, my cousins from london paid $1500...

The difference in price is a reflection of the added distance and less frequent flights, which is why they travel to Spain and North Africa instead...how much would it cost you to visit Marrakesh?