PDA

View Full Version : Post 'Townhall' Debrief and Discussion



Pages : [1] 2 3

Parkdale
10-14-2010, 06:29 PM
The first wave of 'townhallers' are probably down at BMO right now, and may be back online in a very short while.


Please keep all the post-townhall discussion, debate and debriefings in this thread.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Live stream? That would be awesome.

Parkdale
10-14-2010, 06:55 PM
no live stream..... man... hahah.... people want everything live and online these days.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 06:56 PM
lol...want..

I deserve a live stream. MLSE owes me that much :D

gmacpheetfc
10-14-2010, 07:09 PM
its 1 am here can't sleep.

don't know why I'm even bothering to stay up for this

DichioTFC
10-14-2010, 07:21 PM
The first wave of 'townhallers' are probably down at BMO right now, and may be back online in a very short while.


When I first read that, I thought First Wave was getting a townhall

gmacpheetfc
10-14-2010, 07:52 PM
wheeler with some good tweets

http://twitter.com/gareth_wheeler

DichioTFC
10-14-2010, 08:11 PM
#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) won't rush the hire of a new GM, but might not be in time for expansion draft. Consultants assisting with hire to be announced soon. 9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/gareth_wheeler/status/27392226228) via web

I'm actually in favour of that. Unless, of course, the consultants are from First Wave....

RedsYNWA
10-14-2010, 08:14 PM
Back from meeting....left early just sick of the corporate BULL and I'm in the financail sector
All I can say is plenty of lip service NO REAL SOLUTIONS
I wasted more time and $

Brooker
10-14-2010, 08:20 PM
Back from meeting....left early just sick of the corporate BULL and I'm in the financail sector
All I can say is plenty of lip service NO REAL SOLUTIONS
I wasted more time and $

well yeah... that was expected.

ag futbol
10-14-2010, 08:23 PM
Back from meeting....left early just sick of the corporate BULL and I'm in the financail sector
All I can say is plenty of lip service NO REAL SOLUTIONS
I wasted more time and $
Not terribly surprising.

You can pretty much smell it a mile away, they will tell you ANYTHING you want to hear as long as you keep paying.

king dave
10-14-2010, 08:28 PM
Then stop fucking paying. Period!
KD.

RedsYNWA
10-14-2010, 08:31 PM
Listen up fellow 'Pool supporter I have stopped PAYING GENIUS

jimiv
10-14-2010, 08:33 PM
As per tweet from Gareth Wheeler "#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) doesn't look at other #MLS (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) teams when it comes to price schemes - they base it on Toronto prices. Why not base it on TO's performance?

Funny how ML$E controls the Toronto sports market pricing and because they overprice Leaf and Raptors tickets they feel obligated to gouge TFC fans as well...

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 08:34 PM
lol I called in today to ask when season tickets would be sold to gold list or red list and the representative behind the phone was like "Wait, you WANT to buy it?"

I bet I can probably get my hands on tickets for 100 bux if I play my cards right :D

DaBandit
10-14-2010, 08:35 PM
Back from meeting....left early just sick of the corporate BULL and I'm in the financail sector
All I can say is plenty of lip service NO REAL SOLUTIONS
I wasted more time and $

Wow that's shocking, I really thought that they were going to actually do something like roll back prices, or a price freeze or take out the MLS cup.. Ya whatever... The more I listen to these boobs the more I feel better about my decision not to renew.. I love TFC and always will but I will not give ML$E another penny, I'm even going to cancel my subscription to GOL tv.. Go F yourself you dirty bunch of pigs...

RedsYNWA
10-14-2010, 08:35 PM
Man TFC is just like a hot chick that's dummer than a box of rocks.... but you still want to shag her....:(

ochos
10-14-2010, 08:38 PM
Man TFC is just like a hot chick that's dummer than a box of rocks.... but you still want to shag her....:(

But it's never meant to be....

DaBandit
10-14-2010, 08:38 PM
As per tweet from Gareth Wheeler "#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) doesn't look at other #MLS (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) teams when it comes to price schemes - they base it on Toronto prices. Why not base it on TO's performance?

Funny how ML$E controls the Toronto sports market pricing and because they overprice Leaf and Raptors tickets they feel obligated to gouge TFC fans as well...

Exactly what I was thinking when I read that tweet... Leaf fans and raptor fans are being gouged so why can you guys just open wallets, shut up and let us gouge you too... F you, you dirty bunch of pigs,

Hitcho
10-14-2010, 08:40 PM
From Wheeler tweets


@gmacphee (http://twitter.com/gmacphee) They said overall, ticket prices were out of whack section to section. "Correcting imbalances" #TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC)


#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) doesn't look at other #MLS (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) teams when it comes to price schemes - they base it on Toronto prices. Why not base it on TO's performance?

We have to call them out on both of these:

Tweet 1 - so that means they are looking to make TFC the single most expensive team for every section type across the board compared to the rest of the league? And why should the supporter section tickets be prioced relative to the club seats and the ludicrously priced side tables?

Tweet 2 - this really pisses me off. MLSE HAVE A FUCKING MONOPOLY, so they are basically saying "well the Leafs and Raptors cost more, so we can charge more for TFC" and then keep putting prices up for all three based on the same argument?! How fucking arrogant is that?! And at best what they are trying to do is price TFC vs the NBA and NHL rather than vs MLS, just because they own teams in those other sports. That is insane. I am definitely quoting this and querying it on Monday night. Arrogant pricks. I am staggered that they even admit this given their monopoly situation.

Suds
10-14-2010, 08:49 PM
From Gareth Wheeler tweet

#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) supporters came up and told me they're leaving frustrated, but do like the Town Hall forum

Darlofletch
10-14-2010, 08:55 PM
I was there, not a lot of real answers in truth, constant evasion of the per game increase and mls cup questions. justified by saying most people outside of the sg's want the mls cup. the whole thing kind of got derailed by some dumb questions, asking about traffic getting in and out of games, or about restrusturing the voyageurs cup.

they still seem very full of themselves and the success they've created and though they seem to recognise the fans and sg's as part of that, they certainly don't seem like they feel that they owe them anything.

sw paul one on one after, marlies tickets are probably here to stay, though he claimed that he argues passionately against them but always gets overruled.

also asked about brennan, cochrane, daso, dichio etc whether the new guy can pick his own staff or he'll be forced to keep them. apparently he won't be forced, he'll be asked to assess them and left to make his own mind up, but I get the impresion he's going to be strongly urged to keep them, they seem very committed to developing the game and infrastructure and people.

within about 2 minutes of our conversation, he turned and asked my wife "is he always this cynical?".

after taalking to paul, there looked to be aa lot of people trying to talk to tom and earl so I left rather than wait.

interesting and kind of fun to get into the inner sanctum, but not really much new said.

food was disappointing as well, wings nachos, veggies, dip and pizza, though to be fair they did give us 2 drink tickets each so no complaints.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 08:58 PM
sw paul one on one after, marlies tickets are probably here to stay, though he claimed that he argues passionately against them but always gets overruled.


I have never truly been angry at FO till now, and though I've been upset on the board, I've never said anything in malice. This time, however, they have crossed the fucking line.

GET RID OF THIS F---ING PACKAGE, YOU F---ING MORON WANKERS.

My dedication to this cause is everlasting. I will take an infraction or a ban for it. I don't care. Enough is enough. Try the fuck harder Paul.

Suds
10-14-2010, 08:59 PM
I was there, not a lot of real answers in truth, constant evasion of the per game increase and mls cup questions. justified by saying most people outside of the sg's want the mls cup. the whole thing kind of got derailed by some dumb questions, asking about traffic getting in and out of games, or about restrusturing the voyageurs cup.

they still seem very full of themselves and the success they've created and though they seem to recognise the fans and sg's as part of that, they certainly don't seem like they owe them anything.
...



MLSE love it when crap like that happens. It totally takes the focus of the real issues.

I honestly don't know why people ask crap like that. It's not like MLSE builds roads, highways, and transit.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 09:03 PM
MLSE plants people to ask dumbass questions so that they can kill time.

king dave
10-14-2010, 09:08 PM
The most effective protest would have been not to go to this event.
KD.

king dave
10-14-2010, 09:09 PM
... to be fair they did give us 2 drink tickets each so no complaints.
Fuck me. I knew I should have gone.
KD.

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:12 PM
pretty much what Darlo said. Those looking for anything more than the concacaf tickets being dropped will be not very happy as I cannot see anything else being done. They avoided a lot of the ticket pricing questions and genuinely did not feel that they were overpricing anyone. They might do a small u turn down the line to say that we really listened but even if they do it will not be much and I cannot see it happening unless they are already planning for this and are playing us.

Basically what I took from all of this is that this is the MLSE, this is the way we do business and if you are not happy about then that is up to you but we are not going to change anything. As long as you understand that TFC is going to be run like the raptors and the leafs then you will be fine but if you are looking for something different then don't kid yourself. Money is the main factor before the supporter, until this club hits some really bad times ie people not renewing then do not expect them to lower ticket prices or even freeze them.

They did not sound convincing about the future either ie new manager or new GM and Paul B basically said that himself. He said that he does not expect any supporter to be convinced about the future until they see who they bring in. I do not have a lot of hope in this respect, I cannot see them bringing in a great coach but who knows? They did also claim that Preki had a solid past in management, that is contrary to what I have read here.

AL-MO
10-14-2010, 09:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up to all that went. Gives me/us more ammunition for Monday.

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:14 PM
MLSE plants people to ask dumbass questions so that they can kill time.

I actually thought that for a moment too, the traffic question and the voyagers cup question, WTF?

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:18 PM
I have never truly been angry at FO till now, and though I've been upset on the board, I've never said anything in malice. This time, however, they have crossed the fucking line.

GET RID OF THIS FUCKING PACKAGE, YOU FUCKING MORON WANKERS.

My dedication to this cause is everlasting. I will take an infraction or a ban for it. I don't care. Enough is enough. Try the fuck harder Paul.

Not gonna happen, they are in it for the money that is for sure. They actually said that they were not just going by supply and demand as if they were then they would have risen the ticket prices even more in yellow and light grey. To me it sounded as if they thought they were almost doing those supporters a favour. I would not expect anything but ticket price increases until the arse falls out of the club due to people saying fuck this and not renewing.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 09:21 PM
Listen I don't give two shits if a two bit fan wants to buy a Marlies pack, but when you have a REAL SUPPORTER like me, who literally lives and breathes Toronto FC, it's insulting to open your email and see the "WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE MARLIES VALUE PACK JUST FOR YOU"

For 4 years now I've been voicing my disappointment and for 4 years this stupid pack has not gone away.

Darlofletch
10-14-2010, 09:22 PM
also they've apparently got a real big name, someone really respected in the football world to be their consultant, they just can't announce it as he hasn't signed yet.:rolleyes:

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 09:25 PM
I know who it is, or at least, I think I do.

Miguel Pardeza

Gixmo
10-14-2010, 09:27 PM
Listen I don't give two shits if a two bit fan wants to buy a Marlies pack, but when you have a REAL SUPPORTER like me, who literally lives and breathes Toronto FC, it's insulting to open your email and see the "WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE MARLIES VALUE PACK JUST FOR YOU"

For 4 years now I've been voicing my disappointment and for 4 years this stupid pack has not gone away.


Buddy, You're not the only one - Plenty of us real supporters are onl the partial packs..

Unfortunately, You need to get fucked first to become part of the club, or you wait until you potentially get a shot. 3 yrs of Ransom packs for me = No more, I'll go through the trader

king dave
10-14-2010, 09:32 PM
Thanks for the heads up to all that went. Gives me/us more ammunition for Monday.
Love ya brother and I always have your back Alex.
But short of a nuclear weapon?
You and the rest of the 'townhallers'?
Are like a dustmite up against a tornado.
Does anyone here even know who these cats are?
http://www.otpp.com/wps/wcm/connect/otpp_en/home/

If you think a few thousand angry football supporters are gonna affect the decisions of a $96 billion dollar pension fund that is growing as we speak?
Well . . .
KD.

Auzzy
10-14-2010, 09:33 PM
Oh man, this all doesn't sound good. Up to now I was pissed but still a little hopeful for the future. I was thinking, maybe they will keep some more goodies up their sleeve until after the town halls.

But based on how these things seem to be going, and some of the bullshit responses they gave, I think I'm about ready to completely give up all hope. Why the hell WOULDN'T they compare their prices to the rest of MLS? Why the hell WOULD they compare their prices only to other sports events in Toronto? Hockey, basketball & baseball are each in the best leagues in the world. Those teams usually pay much more in salary to a single player, then TFC does to a whole team. It's just such a pile of BS -- they will pick & chose whatever they want on a given day, to justify whatever they want to charge.

Still going to have Marlies ransom packs? What a freaking load of bullshit. "Re-balancing prices" i.e., expensive seats keep getting more expensive, while relatively cheaper seats rise even quicker? Oh EF OFF, when we're already so expensive compared with the rest of the league, with a crappy team producing crappy results in a crappy cheap stadium. They really seem to be intent on killing the golden goose & screwing the supporters culture.

Oh man this is all getting me so pissed off & depressed.

TFCtoMUFC
10-14-2010, 09:34 PM
I am going to the Wednesday meeting. Contemplating bringing my mom's OTPP stuff to fire their own facts at them.

promojosh
10-14-2010, 09:35 PM
So in otherwords, for those attending Monday (i.e. me), my decision has already been made for me as to whether or not renew.

Think I'll go out for wings, nachos, veggies w/dip and a few beers soon. I have 2 STs worth of money to blow on other things now.

Congratulations MLSE, you are sending this franchise the way of the Grizzlies, the Jets, the Nordiques, etc... When you mismanage and continue to perform poorly, there's another "major" US market waiting in the wings to scoop up your team at a discounted price. Heard Omaha, NB is looking to get an MLS team. With the right amount of money, mixed with your arrogance, looks like you'll be signing the paper work in 2015. If not, so is Detroit, Miami, NY (again), St. Louis, etc... And if you think those cities don't have money, or South American connections to acquire players (maybe not St. Louis or Omaha), you're really delusional.

To all those who renewed for 2011. Good luck and do your best to have fun. But remember, NO beer, no concessions and don't get fooled into yet another kit re-design scam.

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:35 PM
I know who it is, or at least, I think I do.

Miguel Pardeza

I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

boysblue
10-14-2010, 09:38 PM
MLSE gives not a royal fuck about all of this. It is simply lip service in an effort to appease and quieten the frustrated supporters.

Remember.....all for one lads, all for one.

prizby
10-14-2010, 09:40 PM
i was thinking of going on the Thursday...now not so much

nascarguy
10-14-2010, 09:41 PM
I am going to the Wednesday meeting. Contemplating bringing my mom's OTPP stuff to fire their own facts at them.
lol that should be funny to listin to and to watch them go :picard: oh we are fucked now

rocker
10-14-2010, 09:42 PM
I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

i think he means as a consultant to pick the GM.
Given that TFC knows Real Madrid's management, it seems plausible.

Suds
10-14-2010, 09:44 PM
I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

I think Jimmy is saying that in jest.

nascarguy
10-14-2010, 09:45 PM
someone needs to tell mlse that RSL season tickets for the season sec is 200$ and say I'm not comeing back in till them cut there price to 275$ for mls season games only

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:45 PM
i was thinking of going on the Thursday...now not so much

I would advise anyone who can to go and see for themselves. It is interesting if nothing else and it gives you a better insight into the MLSE thinking process and their ability to deflect questions. They also had tasty wings and I had a couple of cans of steamwhistle so some things were great. It would have been interesting to see what happened with the SG as perhaps the questions would not have been derailed. They did say they appreciated the SG but at the end of the day they were a minority and they are not going to agree with everything the SG want.

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-14-2010, 09:46 PM
I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

I did the same thing and was always wondering about this too. He can do it as a sideline and stay with Real Madrid?

Red CB Toronto
10-14-2010, 09:47 PM
What I think would be most interesting is to see the contrast of the town hall meetings when you compare one of the general ones to one that is for one of the supporters groups.

ArmenJBX
10-14-2010, 09:48 PM
He organized the trip to Toronto FC last year and spent some time with MLSE executives. I remember hearing they had dinner at Houston? I think it's a steak house.

It's a hunch but it's not the first time I've heard his name being floated around and he may be our new GM but really only time will tell.

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-14-2010, 09:51 PM
He organized the trip to Toronto FC last year and spent some time with MLSE executives. I remember hearing they had dinner at Houston? I think it's a steak house.

It's a hunch but it's not the first time I've heard his name being floated around and he may be our new GM but really only time will tell.

That would be quite the signing for TFC. I could see him doing consulting work with TFC on loan from Real, but I can't see anyone leaving Real Madrid for TFC.

torontocelt
10-14-2010, 09:51 PM
i think he means as a consultant to pick the GM.
Given that TFC knows Real Madrid's management, it seems plausible.

Got you. It would be a bit weird though as they said they did not want to follow the european outlook on how to run a football club and that they would rather follow the central american and north american way. From what I can see the guy at RM has been based in europe his entire career so it would be strange to me to have him picking potentially a european to head a central american/ south american set up? That is not to say he doesn't know others outside of europe of course, perhaps he does.

rocker
10-14-2010, 09:53 PM
Got you. It would be a bit weird though as they said they did not want to follow the european outlook on how to run a football club and that they would rather follow the central american and north american way. From what I can see the guy at RM has been based in europe his entire career so it would be strange to me to have him picking potentially a european to head a central american/ south american set up? That is not to say he doesn't know others outside of europe of course, perhaps he does.

it could be like the red bulls' situation.. they hired Euro guys to head things up. maybe this RM guy has contacts for GM/Director of Soccer in Europe.

king dave
10-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Who wants some good news?
KD.

MFG1
10-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by torontocelt http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1150492#post1150492)
I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

I did the same thing and was always wondering about this too. He can do it as a sideline and stay with Real Madrid?


Guys cmon, thats like asking Steve Yzerman, to go and help the last place team in a Latvian senior mens house league. Guys this is the MLS........dont lose sight of that

billyfly
10-14-2010, 10:01 PM
Who wants some good news?
KD.


Ok, I'll bite KD. What's the good news?

TFC Cityboy
10-14-2010, 10:02 PM
was it a structured meeting with a panel of Anselmi and co facing audience-style questions? Just saw a couple of minutes on CBC news and all I saw resembled the TFC pub crawl- ie one on one chats.

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:04 PM
The OTPP has reached it's growth potential.
They have more teacher's retiring in the next decade and less teacher's coming aboard.
Meaning it's time to sell off some of the portfolio.
MLSE?
Unlikely. The Leafs are winning and giving hope once again.
But if they sell off the problem child (TFC) to this guy,

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5038132024_264f3fc71b_z.jpg
A Russian billionaire from Toronto who attempted to buy TFC a couple of years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider)
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html)
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/afte...05_72869_72869 (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/lifestyle_activities/article.jsp?content=20051205_72869_72869)
http://www.thestar.com/article/291221 (http://www.thestar.com/article/291221)

I think this would work!
KD.

moralis
10-14-2010, 10:04 PM
Question for JimmyBaldX:

Do you have inside info that he might or will be a consultant or a candidate for the GM job. TFC fans would like some good news tonight. If TFC does bring this guy in that would be a good first step to see if they are really serious about moving this club in the right direction.

spark
10-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Here's another 2 cents ...

bignewf kicked it off the q&a with wanting justification on the ticket price increase. Noted how the removal of the CCL games makes no sense as most supporters would end up buying into them anyways. Have to say Tom and Paul really weren't able to answer this in any convincing way. Paul brought up the money they've put into the club with the acadamy, grass, JDG, etc ...

Someone actually gave them the gears about their radio appearances and the "spin" they've been putting on the situation. Notes that wasn't the grass supposed to be paid for by the sale of Mo Edu? Points about everything being metioned in terms of money put in does not really affect the supporter, there's no give and take, and is just another medium for MLSE to make money (ie the stands) and something like more washrooms would make sense. Paul points out they did add more washrooms at the north end.

I was sitting next to my landlord who kept commenting how the two guys on the right are full of shit.

To me, after bignewf and the guy next to him, the rest of the questions didn't really get to the crux of why this townhall was called in the first place and some of the questions were kinda weird but hey it's your chance to ask anything so who am I to say what can and can't be asked?

Oh yeah and I like the question about a price freeze which was all but answered no way in hell. They'd review next year which to me says all we have to do is get one more point than this year and CHA-CHING!

Like other have noted it was a good enough idea to hold these meetings but to me I left wondering wtf was this even for? Unless something changes what was the point of this? Which of course the answer is it's (IMO) just a way to try and put out the usual stuff about "we're gonna fucking get this done! don't you worry this shit is going to get straightened out!" but only to our faces.

Oh yeah almost forgot this one ... not sure what the question was that led to this but Paul was going on about being able to please all the supporters groups but there are 16,000 other fans they need to worry about as well etc ... and all I was thinking was - where the f#$% is your head? You lose those 4K/"authentic gameday experience" and do you think for one second the rest will give a toss?

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-14-2010, 10:10 PM
The OTPP has reached it's growth potential.
They have more teacher's retiring in the next decade and less teacher's coming aboard.
Meaning it's time to sell off some of the portfolio.
MLSE?
Unlikely. The Leafs are winning and giving hope once again.
But if they sell off the problem child (TFC) to this guy,

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5038132024_264f3fc71b_z.jpg
A Russian billionaire from Toronto who attempted to buy TFC a couple of years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider)
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html)
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/afte...05_72869_72869 (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/lifestyle_activities/article.jsp?content=20051205_72869_72869)
http://www.thestar.com/article/291221 (http://www.thestar.com/article/291221)

I think this would work!
KD.

He didn't attempt to buy TFC, he attempted to buy MLSE. Is there any reason to think he's interested in TFC specifically?

Heathen
10-14-2010, 10:15 PM
He didn't attempt to buy TFC, he attempted to buy MLSE. Is there any reason to think he's interested in TFC specifically?

Well he owns Maccabi Tel-Aviv from Israel

bgnewf
10-14-2010, 10:15 PM
TFC Town Hall Report Part 1

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/10/tfc-town-hall-report-part-1/

A quick recap of the TFC fan Town Hall meeting Thursday evening at BMO Field.

Comments are always welcome.

Macksam
10-14-2010, 10:16 PM
So in otherwords, for those attending Monday (i.e. me), my decision has already been made for me as to whether or not renew.

Think I'll go out for wings, nachos, veggies w/dip and a few beers soon. I have 2 STs worth of money to blow on other things now.

Congratulations MLSE, you are sending this franchise the way of the Grizzlies, the Jets, the Nordiques, etc... When you mismanage and continue to perform poorly, there's another "major" US market waiting in the wings to scoop up your team at a discounted price. Heard Omaha, NB is looking to get an MLS team. With the right amount of money, mixed with your arrogance, looks like you'll be signing the paper work in 2015. If not, so is Detroit, Miami, NY (again), St. Louis, etc... And if you think those cities don't have money, or South American connections to acquire players (maybe not St. Louis or Omaha), you're really delusional.

To all those who renewed for 2011. Good luck and do your best to have fun. But remember, NO beer, no concessions and don't get fooled into yet another kit re-design scam.
No, the Jets and Nordiques left because of the lack of new arenas, nothing more. You have some merit in mentioning the Grizzlies. However, MLS won't let a major market like Toronto slip away easily, and someone else will buy the team before any thoughts of moving else where occur.

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:19 PM
He didn't attempt to buy TFC, he attempted to buy MLSE. Is there any reason to think he's interested in TFC specifically?
Yes, you're right.

He is a big time sports nut.
Get's off on the fame of ownership as such.
A step on your throat kind of guy I think.
Just thinking that OTPP may unload certain entities of it's portfolio.
KD.

bgnewf
10-14-2010, 10:24 PM
And training camp in January 2011 will start in Turkey! Yes... In Europe!

I think Earl Cochrane may have let that one out of the bag.

Gareth Wheeler was in attendance as well and I had a chat with him. His piece should be interesting in tomorrow's Sun.

Red Rat
10-14-2010, 10:25 PM
Now what was the point in this?
sounds like a lot a crap to me, feed me and I will eat it.

rr

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-14-2010, 10:26 PM
I agree a Russian Billionaire + TFC = happy, just not sure it's in the offing. Would this even be a good time to sell the team? All the recent on and off field problems must have effected the value.

shwade
10-14-2010, 10:27 PM
And training camp in January 2011 will start in Turkey! Yes... In Europe!

I think Earl Cochrane may have let that one out of the bag.

Gareth Wheeler was in attendance as well and I had a chat with him. His piece should be interesting in tomorrow's Sun.

I think it was before the second season started but they said something similar to this back then.

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:29 PM
TFC Town Hall Report Part 1

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/10/tfc-town-hall-report-part-1/

A quick recap of the TFC fan Town Hall meeting Thursday evening at BMO Field.

Comments are always welcome.
Thanks.
KD.

bgnewf
10-14-2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks.
KD.

Cheers KD!

Wull
10-14-2010, 10:35 PM
also they've apparently got a real big name, someone really respected in the football world to be their consultant, they just can't announce it as he hasn't signed yet.:rolleyes:

Jan Venegoor of Hesselink? They don't come much bigger than that name!

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:36 PM
I can't say it enough guys!
This team? TFC? Will never,ever,ever get a running start with MLSE behind it.
MLSE is a corporation with a direct, fiduciary responsibilty to OTPP.
What they are selling does not matter.
Just as long as they keep selling lot's of it.
KD.

Suds
10-14-2010, 10:37 PM
I agree a Russian Billionaire + TFC = happy, just not sure it's in the offing. Would this even be a good time to sell the team? All the recent on and off field problems must have effected the value.

The Leafs are value has over doubled since 2000 as reported by Forbes ... and they've sucked for years. 2009 valued just under $500 million.

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:40 PM
The Leafs are value has over doubled since 2000 as reported by Forbes ... and they've sucked for years. 2009 valued just under $500 million.
And even if you choose to go to the Marlies?
MLSE is getting your dosh!
KD.

king dave
10-14-2010, 10:46 PM
As some of you might already know, I have decided to not renew my seasons next year.
I have also decided not to attend any of the TFC matches @ BMO.
But on the good side?
I will firmly support the CSL next season as I do love footy and won't live without it.
Much, much more to look forward to next year for this douche!
But all the best to the rest of you lemmings:D
KD.

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-14-2010, 10:49 PM
Preseason in Turkey sounds like a step in the right direction. Their trips to Florida to NCAA teams have been less the inspiring in the past.

Do Russian or Nordic teams train in Turkey as well at the same time?

Red Rat
10-14-2010, 11:44 PM
ML$E is full of shit and you people are eating it.

Roogsy
10-14-2010, 11:49 PM
After reading this thread, it's hard not to feel like a teenage boy who had a crush on a pretty girl and did everything to win her over only for him to find out she's a skanky whore.

The rose-coloured glasses are off. They don't give a flying shit about the fans, the supporters or the atmosphere at the games. They only use it to try to maximize revenues. I suppose I always wanted to believe we were dealing with people who wanted to do a good job not just for their own careers but also for the city and for soccer in this country. That's not even close to being true.

We have all been suckers for 4 seasons. Now it stops for me.

They lost a dedicated supporter today. I love this city, and I love soccer. I am quite sure I love both of these more than these...well...I don't want to break board rules so I won't actually call them what I want to call them. But you get the gist. But I am nobody patsy. That's exactly what they want from us and exactly what they hope to achieve through this sham of "townhall" meetings. If there will be no changes, what exactly is the purpose of holding them if only to patronize fans into believing they are part of the process and being heard when in fact they simply return to their offices and forget it all ever happened and simply plan how they will be hiking prices next year again?

I used to support all their initiatives. The 90th minute party, their foundation event, everything. Never again. I am paying for my 2 cheapest tickets and nothing more. I will never buy concessions at BMO Field again, I will never pay for parking at the CNE and I will never attend any more of their MLSE events. They can take their smugness and scam somebody else out of thousands of dollars.

mclaren
10-14-2010, 11:55 PM
After reading this thread, it's hard not to feel like a teenage boy who had a crush on a pretty girl and did everything to win her over only for him to find out she's a skanky whore.

The rose-coloured glasses are off. They don't give a flying shit about the fans, the supporters or the atmosphere at the games. They only use it to try to maximize revenues. I suppose I always wanted to believe we were dealing with people who wanted to do a good job not just for their own careers but also for the city and for soccer in this country. That's not even close to being true.

We have all been suckers for 4 seasons. Now it stops for me.

They lost a dedicated supporter today. I love this city, and I love soccer. I am quite sure I love both of these more than these...well...I don't want to break board rules so I won't actually call them what I want to call them. But you get the gist. But I am nobody patsy. That's exactly what they want from us and exactly what they hope to achieve through this sham of "townhall" meetings. If there will be no changes, what exactly is the purpose of holding them if only to patronize fans into believing they are part of the process and being heard when in fact they simply return to their offices and forget it all ever happened and simply plan how they will be hiking prices next year again?

The irony is that if they'd just been honest from day one instead of throwing up a facade of "transparency" and "caring for/having a dialogue with the fans", we'd respect them more for it today.

Roogsy
10-14-2010, 11:57 PM
The irony is that if they'd just been honest from day one instead of throwing up a facade of "transparency" and "caring for/having a dialogue with the fans", we'd respect them more for it today.


Yup. QFFT...

They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. These are not people that love soccer. These aren't even people that KNOW soccer. They're a bunch of paper pushers that lucked into an exclusive product and are now wringing it for every penny they possibly can while ruining what could have been the best sporting experience in Toronto. It's like watching somebody shit on a crisp, clean white bedsheet right out of the dryer.

They had us. They won us without having to do anything and proceeded to do everything possible to ruin every possible experience about being a soccer supporter.

peterboroughtfcfan
10-15-2010, 12:05 AM
Here's another 2 cents ...

bignewf kicked it off the q&a with wanting justification on the ticket price increase. Noted how the removal of the CCL games makes no sense as most supporters would end up buying into them anyways. Have to say Tom and Paul really weren't able to answer this in any convincing way. Paul brought up the money they've put into the club with the acadamy, grass, JDG, etc ...

Someone actually gave them the gears about their radio appearances and the "spin" they've been putting on the situation. Notes that wasn't the grass supposed to be paid for by the sale of Mo Edu? Points about everything being metioned in terms of money put in does not really affect the supporter, there's no give and take, and is just another medium for MLSE to make money (ie the stands) and something like more washrooms would make sense. Paul points out they did add more washrooms at the north end.

I was sitting next to my landlord who kept commenting how the two guys on the right are full of shit.

To me, after bignewf and the guy next to him, the rest of the questions didn't really get to the crux of why this townhall was called in the first place and some of the questions were kinda weird but hey it's your chance to ask anything so who am I to say what can and can't be asked?

Oh yeah and I like the question about a price freeze which was all but answered no way in hell. They'd review next year which to me says all we have to do is get one more point than this year and CHA-CHING!

Like other have noted it was a good enough idea to hold these meetings but to me I left wondering wtf was this even for? Unless something changes what was the point of this? Which of course the answer is it's (IMO) just a way to try and put out the usual stuff about "we're gonna fucking get this done! don't you worry this shit is going to get straightened out!" but only to our faces.

Oh yeah almost forgot this one ... not sure what the question was that led to this but Paul was going on about being able to please all the supporters groups but there are 16,000 other fans they need to worry about as well etc ... and all I was thinking was - where the f#$% is your head? You lose those 4K/"authentic gameday experience" and do you think for one second the rest will give a toss?



Good synopsis. FYI I was the guy sitting to the right of BigNewf. My name is Elliot and hopefully I'll run into you at the RPB townhall. Come up and say hello.

Just to be clear the question I put to Paul and Tom was the following: Both of them had gone on the Fan and talked about how they were responding to the fans demands and admitting they "screwed up". Likewise the website is plastered with apologies and mentions how they listened to us. However, no one was ever complaining about the CCL games because we all knew we were going to pay for those games and they knew that too. Hence, it struck me as disingenuous to play it off to the media that they were listening to the fans when they knew full well that they weren't. I pointed out to Paul that he posts on the RPB board all the time and there is no way he didn't know our real concerns were the average price increase and the inclusion of the MLS Cup Final.

Paul and Tom responded with a cluster of answers: 1. The Red Patch Boys don't represent the voice of all fans, and there are 16,000 other people who didn't want the CCL games included in the package (I suppose he's partially correct, but he's also underestimating the value of the supporter's groups and the fact that we're the only ones complaining) and 2. they suggested that the average ticket price increase was justified by the investments in the club like grass and the new stands.

I responded by saying that we all know the pitch was paid for by the Maurice Edu transfer and that the North End Stands will pay for themselves. Telling us we have to pay for the North End Stands is BS because they get value out of those seats, if they had invested in the washrooms it might have made more sense. Paul retorted that they got new washrooms in the North with the expansion of the beer patio. He also mentioned that he understands there are other issues such as lack of ATM's and access to entrances just before game time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Boys,

I have to say (like BigNewf) that I was incredibly disappointed with their responses. I suppose I should have expected this, but frankly they really did just put themselves on a firing line in front of us and let us loose, so I was a bit hopeful.

I will say that this is an incredible opportunity to let them know all of our grievances. This session could have been so much better if we didn't have some people serving up softball questions (i.e. "when will the academy play more of a role") rather than really venting on them and holding them accountable. I think I got Anselmi to admit that the whole "investing in the pitch" issue was bullshit but you have to pressure them.

Clearly they don't value the supporters the way I expected them to and I think this weekend will be even that much more important in demonstrating to them how much we really do control the atmosphere and tempo of the stadium.

DO NOT MISS OUT ON THE TOWNHALL NEXT MONDAY. If we go in organized and well prepared they will get out message. Ansemli seems like a good enough guy, but you have to beat the MLSE spin machine out of them. Be prepared. Hold them accountable.

Brooker
10-15-2010, 12:26 AM
This whole "I'm not taking it anymore. They lost a fan today. I'm not gonna be a sucker no more." but still buying season tickets is pretty mind boggling. If everybody just didn't renew, MLSE would literally shit their pants... but people will renew and the suits pay no mind to the problems.... and then the renewers will complain that MLSE doesn't care... It's a lovely little cycle, it really is.

BASE
10-15-2010, 01:31 AM
The OTPP has reached it's growth potential.
They have more teacher's retiring in the next decade and less teacher's coming aboard.
Meaning it's time to sell off some of the portfolio.
MLSE?
Unlikely. The Leafs are winning and giving hope once again.
(http://www.thestar.com/article/291221)

I think this would work!
KD.

Do you even realize how small of an investment MLSE is to the OTPP???

Investing in MLSE was probably less expensive than being hit up for luxury boxes + tickets over the long term.

Hustle
10-15-2010, 04:32 AM
Wish I could go to one of these town halls. It's quite clear they just don't get it.
They don't understand that for every angry supporter, there are four apathetic casuals who are too busy/shy/uninterested whatever to speak up but still know they are getting fucked.

They say there are 16,000 other casuals to worry about and the supporters are only one group? Hello, did you see the empty seats all over the park this year? Did you see the 15 pages of facebook comments that see right through you on your "apology" page from a mix of "regular people" and supporters?

And pricing TFC like other sports in the city, while the payroll for TFC is a fraction of that of other sports AND in the context of the football world MLS should stand for Minor League Soccer. You comparing apples and oranges Tom. The arrogance is mindboggling.

Blowing Bubbles
10-15-2010, 06:15 AM
The thing is:

If you're going to set a "market" based price for ticket prices where the market is the overall sports market and not your MLS peers -

Then how the fuck can you justify spending a total of 2.5 million on DP's?

If you're going to price this as 75% equivalent to NHL/NBA but then spend not even HALF of what LA and NYRB spend on their rosters ...... what the fuck?

I mean I could understand the line in the sand arrogance if they backed it up with the highest payroll in the league, but we're not even fuckign close.

menefreghista
10-15-2010, 06:17 AM
Paul and Tom responded with a cluster of answers: 1. The Red Patch Boys don't represent the voice of all fans, and there are 16,000 other people who didn't want the CCL games included in the package (I suppose he's partially correct, but he's also underestimating the value of the supporter's groups and the fact that we're the only ones complaining)


Firstly, I do think the removal of the CCL games was partially due to the fact that people in the expensive seats weren't interested in them. These were the same people that didn't buy them this season. I could see them complaining about it.

But if you take a look at the Facebook comments, pretty much everyone is upset about the MLS Cup inclusion and the price per game increase. And the Facebook comments come from a wider group of people than supporter groups.

So for Anselmi and Beirne to say people want the MLS Cup is an outright lie.

ArmenJBX
10-15-2010, 06:56 AM
I know we're all looking for good news. Unfortunately that's the only name I've heard.

Technorgasm
10-15-2010, 07:16 AM
Why cant sport net profits?
the motivation for any enterprise is profit.

not to create smiling happy singing fans.

Winning = more $$$
the more games you win the better the tv contracts, merchandise ect.
we are teh squeaky wheels and we got alil grease. . .
Impleased that MLSE made an effort to connect with us, and I hope for the best for this team .

Blowing Bubbles
10-15-2010, 07:24 AM
If "winning = more money" why has MLSE spent into the luxury tax ZERO times in 15 years with the Raptors?

You'll win fuck all in the NBA if you're not a luxury tax level team.

MKR
10-15-2010, 07:28 AM
After reading this thread, it's hard not to feel like a teenage boy who had a crush on a pretty girl and did everything to win her over only for him to find out she's a skanky whore.

The rose-coloured glasses are off. They don't give a flying shit about the fans, the supporters or the atmosphere at the games. They only use it to try to maximize revenues. I suppose I always wanted to believe we were dealing with people who wanted to do a good job not just for their own careers but also for the city and for soccer in this country. That's not even close to being true.

We have all been suckers for 4 seasons. Now it stops for me.

They lost a dedicated supporter today. I love this city, and I love soccer. I am quite sure I love both of these more than these...well...I don't want to break board rules so I won't actually call them what I want to call them. But you get the gist. But I am nobody patsy. That's exactly what they want from us and exactly what they hope to achieve through this sham of "townhall" meetings. If there will be no changes, what exactly is the purpose of holding them if only to patronize fans into believing they are part of the process and being heard when in fact they simply return to their offices and forget it all ever happened and simply plan how they will be hiking prices next year again?

I used to support all their initiatives. The 90th minute party, their foundation event, everything. Never again. I am paying for my 2 cheapest tickets and nothing more. I will never buy concessions at BMO Field again, I will never pay for parking at the CNE and I will never attend any more of their MLSE events. They can take their smugness and scam somebody else out of thousands of dollars.

Threatening that you're done as a fan or supporter or whatever and then buying season's tickets ??!

Oldtimer
10-15-2010, 07:34 AM
My dedication to this cause is everlasting. I will take an infraction or a ban for it. I don't care. Enough is enough. Try the fuck harder Paul.

Why would we ban you for your comments? We don't work for ML$E.

Many of us feel as angry as you do.

Update: one of the mods edited your comments slightly. That's all you'll get. :)

MG42
10-15-2010, 07:59 AM
The OTPP has reached it's growth potential.
They have more teacher's retiring in the next decade and less teacher's coming aboard.
Meaning it's time to sell off some of the portfolio.
MLSE?
Unlikely. The Leafs are winning and giving hope once again.
But if they sell off the problem child (TFC) to this guy,

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5038132024_264f3fc71b_z.jpg
A Russian billionaire from Toronto who attempted to buy TFC a couple of years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider)
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/NIU6.html)
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/afte...05_72869_72869 (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/lifestyle_activities/article.jsp?content=20051205_72869_72869)
http://www.thestar.com/article/291221 (http://www.thestar.com/article/291221)

I think this would work!
KD.

Alright lets start the email campaign to get him to buy TFC, how do we get a hold of this guy lol

mastermixer
10-15-2010, 07:59 AM
Who is accountable for Anselmi?? If this guy has almost zero soccer knowledge than I can't imagine how much knowledge the guy above him has. And if the suit above him has no idea what's going on does that mean Anslemi is untouchable?

BFin
10-15-2010, 08:03 AM
Listen I don't give two shits if a two bit fan wants to buy a Marlies pack, but when you have a REAL SUPPORTER like me, who literally lives and breathes Toronto FC, it's insulting to open your email and see the "WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE MARLIES VALUE PACK JUST FOR YOU"

For 4 years now I've been voicing my disappointment and for 4 years this stupid pack has not gone away.

LOL @ this post.

I would start ripping it, but wouldn't know where to stop really.

BFin
10-15-2010, 08:05 AM
Threatening that you're done as a fan or supporter or whatever and then buying season's tickets ??!

That didn't make much sense to me either.

I'm just going to watch from home from now on.

DangerRed
10-15-2010, 08:12 AM
After reading this thread, it's hard not to feel like a teenage boy who had a crush on a pretty girl and did everything to win her over only for him to find out she's a skanky whore.

The rose-coloured glasses are off. They don't give a flying shit about the fans, the supporters or the atmosphere at the games. They only use it to try to maximize revenues. I suppose I always wanted to believe we were dealing with people who wanted to do a good job not just for their own careers but also for the city and for soccer in this country. That's not even close to being true.

We have all been suckers for 4 seasons. Now it stops for me.

They lost a dedicated supporter today. I love this city, and I love soccer. I am quite sure I love both of these more than these...well...I don't want to break board rules so I won't actually call them what I want to call them. But you get the gist. But I am nobody patsy. That's exactly what they want from us and exactly what they hope to achieve through this sham of "townhall" meetings. If there will be no changes, what exactly is the purpose of holding them if only to patronize fans into believing they are part of the process and being heard when in fact they simply return to their offices and forget it all ever happened and simply plan how they will be hiking prices next year again?

I used to support all their initiatives. The 90th minute party, their foundation event, everything. Never again. I am paying for my 2 cheapest tickets and nothing more. I will never buy concessions at BMO Field again, I will never pay for parking at the CNE and I will never attend any more of their MLSE events. They can take their smugness and scam somebody else out of thousands of dollars.

You're done with them? They can take their smugness and scam someone else? How can you be so outraged and yet renew your season seats?

I hope you guys protest in a more... unified way this weekend, because that's just goofy.

FluSH
10-15-2010, 08:13 AM
They say there are 16,000 other casuals to worry about and the supporters are only one group? Hello, did you see the empty seats all over the park this year? Did you see the 15 pages of facebook comments that see right through you on your "apology" page from a mix of "regular people" and supporters?


To Paul Bernie et al.... How many of these 16,000 do you think appreciate what we do day in and day out? I get approached by strangers on the GO TRAIN asking me if I am the guy in the stand... from banners, to chanting, to tailgates, to roadtrips... ppl love the atmosphere that supporter groups bring... that we create... and for TFC FO not to recognize that by saying we are only one group... well that's a slap in the face.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 08:25 AM
Threatening that you're done as a fan or supporter or whatever and then buying season's tickets ??!

he's saying that he is scaling his TFC spending back to the barest minimum, without actually leaving the stadium. He outlined all the other things he paid for (outside events etc) but is changing how he will spend his time/money.

I think that's probably a much more reasonable and measured response than just outright dropping your tickets and walking away.

and let's just imagine that someone dropped their tickets, and the team actually got competitive. Then what? You'll be buying 'walk up' prices and getting hosed even worse.

v00d00daddy
10-15-2010, 08:29 AM
To Paul Bernie et al.... How many of these 16,000 do you think appreciate what we do day in and day out? I get approached by strangers on the GO TRAIN asking me if I am the guy in the stand... from banners, to chanting, to tailgates, to roadtrips... ppl love the atmosphere that supporter groups bring... that we create... and for TFC FO not to recognize that by saying we are only one group... well that's a slap in the face.


You ARE only one group. The SG's make up a small fraction of the people in the stands. The TFC front office are a bunch of idiotic assholes but they're not wrong in suggesting that they won't cater to one small segment of the paying crowd. Regardless of how much atmosphere they bring.

The people who pay a shitload of money to see football in this city have lost the need for the atmosphere. They're no longer coming because the product is shit and not worth their money. The novelty of the "atmosphere" being a selling point has worn off.

It's time this club really starts to worry about the players and staff that make this team click....that's priority number one...

not ticket prices
not concession prices
and not keeping the SG's happy.

I was under the impression that the SG's want this team to get better and for the club to stop gouging the people who pay to see this team play....not looking for a pat on the back and credit for being the "atmosphere".

I'll wear green and not chant tomorrow because I think it's important to let the club know that we deserve a better product at a better price....not because I like the atmosphere in the stadium.

J .
10-15-2010, 08:34 AM
It was too easy for MLSE to get this off the ground because of us and used the SG's for marketing purposes.

It is like I said all along, they do not care and are intent on removing supporters out of the stands. They used us while it worked for their marketing and now when it is not, they are going to ditch us.

If in the first year of TFC, there was 5-10,000 people, they would be courting us, but because people packed the stadium for 4 years, they think we are replaceable.

Not once have I heard of a satisfactory response from these idiots. From the FO to the players, everything that comes from Total Fucking Circus is disappointing me.

Pricing it based on Toronto prices? Fuck off with that shit. This is more Marlies than Leafs, more Rock than Raptors.

Fuck these idiots

FluSH
10-15-2010, 08:35 AM
You ARE only one group. The SG's make up a small fraction of the people in the stands. The TFC front office are a bunch of idiotic assholes but they're not wrong in suggesting that they won't cater to one small segment of the paying crowd. Regardless of how much atmosphere they bring.

The people who pay a shitload of money to see football in this city have lost the need for the atmosphere. They're no longer coming because the product is shit and not worth their money. The novelty of the "atmosphere" being a selling point has worn off.

It's time this club really starts to worry about the players and staff that make this team click....that's priority number one...

not ticket prices
not concession prices
and not keeping the SG's happy.

I was under the impression that the SG's want this team to get better and for the club to stop gouging the people who pay to see this team play....not looking for a pat on the back and credit for being the "atmosphere".

I'll wear green and not chant tomorrow because I think it's important to let the club know that we deserve a better product at a better price....not because I like the atmosphere in the stadium.


Let's talk about atmosphere:

MLSE is selling the Experience... They are selling us.

Yesterday I read a quote that simply captivated me. It's about the best Chef in the World, Rene Redzepi, who owns the World's best restaurant (Toronto Star Thursday Oct 14th L1). Anyhow he's a Chef from Denmark who had this to say about Nordic Cuisine:

"We just wanted to cook like everybody else', he remembers. 'We were inspired by the cultures that did talk about their cuisines. Why is it that you fall in love with some small village, and the ham that's from there, and the bread a mother baked? It's because they're telling a story, and they're so proud of it, and you're inspired by it. We never had that for anything we served."

I thought the quote was beautiful... and at the same time, I realized that TFC FO has been serving us for the past 4 seasons... selling us as the experience. This has happened from day ONE.

BFin
10-15-2010, 08:36 AM
he's saying that he is scaling his TFC spending back to the barest minimum, without actually leaving the stadium. He outlined all the other things he paid for (outside events etc) but is changing how he will spend his time/money.

I think that's probably a much more reasonable and measured response than just outright dropping your tickets and walking away.

and let's just imagine that someone dropped their tickets, and the team actually got competitive. Then what? You'll be buying 'walk up' prices and getting hosed even worse.

You watch it on TV, watch in a bar, and don't go running back to the stadium at the first glimmer of hope. TFC has to earn it now, not on a 10 game basis but over a couple of seasons. I think outright dropping your tickets sends a message, saying your mad and renewing...does absolutely nothing.

FluSH
10-15-2010, 08:42 AM
http://u-sector.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/May1207-05.jpg

P.S. The infamous Usec ad... yup Toronto FC has been selling us as the experience from day one...

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 08:43 AM
You watch it on TV, watch in a bar, and don't go running back to the stadium at the first glimmer of hope. TFC has to earn it now, not on a 10 game basis but over a couple of seasons. I think outright dropping your tickets sends a message, saying your mad and renewing...does absolutely nothing.


well call me crazy.... but I kinda like going to games live, and watching it on TV is no substitution at all. Hell... I can watch GOOD football on TV, so why would I watch anything less?

Sports are always better live, and if the experience isn't enjoyable anymore, then stop going. I still have a good time at the games, so sacrificing that to prove a point is just 'cutting off my nose...'

BFin
10-15-2010, 08:47 AM
well call me crazy.... but I kinda like going to games live, and watching it on TV is no substitution at all. Hell... I can watch GOOD football on TV, so why would I watch anything less?

Sports are always better live, and if the experience isn't enjoyable anymore, then stop going. I still have a good time at the games, so sacrificing that to prove a point is just 'cutting off my nose...'

Have you watched a game in HD on a bright Saturday with CBC airing it? Sat down, had a beer on your couch, smoked a cigar and had some good homemade food? Doesn't sound like a bad experience to me.

You're not cutting off your nose, you're following up on the statements you make daily on these boards about being pissed off at the greed and demanding change. Rosa Parks wearing a green shirt, but still moving to the back of the bus, wouldn't get her point across. :cool:

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 08:47 AM
http://u-sector.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/May1207-05.jpg

P.S. The infamous Usec ad... yup Toronto FC has been selling us as the experience from day one...

No one is denying that, especially around here. We all know it.

v00d00daddy
10-15-2010, 08:48 AM
Let's talk about atmosphere:

MLSE is selling the Experience... They are selling us.

I thought the quote was beautiful... and at the same time, I realized that TFC FO has been serving us for the past 4 seasons... selling us as the experience. This has happened from day ONE.

Let me remind you what day one was like. The stadium was full. As it was the rest of them home dates. Long before the SG's brought the atmosphere there were people who had ponied up their money on day 1 of the franchise existence and were waiting for the first day to watch the new Toronto football team.

There are plenty of people who came to support TFC long before they knew of any supporters groups or their efforts. These are the people that are getting fed up of a shitty product. These are the people that have seen the price of tickets double.

The SG's atmosphere helped to make a TFC game be the "place to be"...well guess what...not even that works anymore. The stands were emptier and emptier this year because people will not pay more to see less....regardless of what the supporters are doing on any given day.

Don't get me wrong...the FO should appreciate what the SG's do...this is just not the time to fight that battle. There are MUCH more important things to deal with.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 08:52 AM
Have you watched a game in HD on a bright Saturday with CBC airing it? Sat down, had a beer on your couch, smoked a cigar and had some good homemade food? Doesn't sound like a bad experience to me.

You're not cutting off your nose, you're following up on the statements you make daily on these boards about being pissed off at the greed and demanding change. Rosa Parks wearing a green shirt, but still moving to the back of the bus, wouldn't get her point across. :cool:


but why would I watch TFC when I could be watching... (insert giant Euro club name here)? The quality of play is better, the goals are... existent. I like watching TFC live because it's my home team. I sure as hell wouldn't be watching them at all if they weren't.

I make statements about being upset with a lot of things, BUT (as you know because you know me well enough) I'm an optimist and I try to look for fun where I can find it. A live TFC game at BMO will always be better than sitting on my couch watching it. (if it's on CBC, as I don't have cable).

I'm ready for change, but giving up tickets is disengaging from the whole situation. Rosa Parks could have just sat on the curb while the bus drove on. If she didn't pay the bus fare, she wouldn't have been entitled to a seat anywhere on the bus. Nice escalation though ;)

FluSH
10-15-2010, 08:53 AM
Let me remind you what day one was like. The stadium was full. As it was the rest of them home dates. Long before the SG's brought the atmosphere there were people who had ponied up their money on day 1 of the franchise existence and were waiting for the first day to watch the new Toronto football team.

There are plenty of people who came to support TFC long before they knew of any supporters groups or their efforts. These are the people that are getting fed up of a shitty product. These are the people that have seen the price of tickets double.

The SG's atmosphere helped to make a TFC game be the "place to be"...well guess what...not even that works anymore. The stands were emptier and emptier this year because people will not pay more to see less....regardless of what the supporters are doing on any given day.

Don't get me wrong...the FO should appreciate what the SG's do...this is just not the time to fight that battle. There are MUCH more important things to deal with.

^^^
Season one was also a record breaking year... we hit the record for longest goal drought... and yet, at the end of the season the SG's and the masses celebrated like we won the cup. Chanting and Signing.

but you are right... the atmosphere is not enough anymore to make TFC the place to be...

Heathen
10-15-2010, 08:54 AM
That didn't make much sense to me either.

I'm just going to watch from home from now on.

Good for you, as I see it ditching Seasons is the ultimate sanction I'm not ready to do that yet but I am unhappy. The either don't renew or stop complaining argument is simplistic and not the way the world works.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 08:54 AM
Long before the SG's brought the atmosphere there were people who had ponied up their money on day 1 of the franchise existence and were waiting for the first day to watch the new Toronto football team.

I know 3 RPBs who were in the first 10 people to sign up.
let's not get into a chicken-egg debate over who was here first.

I agree there are MUCH more important things to deal with than atmosphere. You know... like winning. If the team wins, atmosphere takes care of it self (to an extent)

BFin
10-15-2010, 08:58 AM
but why would I watch TFC when I could be watching... (insert giant Euro club name here)? The quality of play is better, the goals are... existent. I like watching TFC live because it's my home team. I sure as hell wouldn't be watching them at all if they weren't.

Because you live in Toronto, and support the teams that represent you? That's why I watch them.

I make statements about being upset with a lot of things, BUT (as you know because you know me well enough) I'm an optimist and I try to look for fun where I can find it. A live TFC game at BMO will always be better than sitting on my couch watching it. (if it's on CBC, as I don't have cable).

That's well and good, not trying to argue the merits of live vs not-live, they each have their benefits and each offer a very unique way to watch games.

I'm ready for change, but giving up tickets is disengaging from the whole situation. Rosa Parks could have just sat on the curb while the bus drove on. If she didn't pay the bus fare, she wouldn't have been entitled to a seat anywhere on the bus. Nice escalation though ;)

Giving up tickets, and MLSE having a tough time selling them may be disengaging, but it's also making a point. Being displeased and still paying to go just perpetuates the problem. It's like telling your kid how pissed off you are at him, but still giving his allowance anyway. Is that going to change anything? I liked the Rosa Parks reference! Took a lot of thinking to find a reference with that much hutzpah!



See bolded responses in quote.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 09:10 AM
See bolded responses in quote.


Because you live in Toronto, and support the teams that represent you? That's why I watch them


it's not 'support' if you're doing it from your couch. :drinking:

rviewmirror
10-15-2010, 09:31 AM
I call myself a casual supporter. Why is that, because I "fell in love" with atmosphere that SG's created and not the product itself. If I wanted to go watch good football, I'd just watch EPL/La Liga etc. from the comfort of my home on an HDTV and cheap beer.

I go to games because I enjoy watching it with passionate fans that create a want in me to go watch with them live and join them with the chanting.

If this goes, I go too. I honestly feel there are THOUSANDS in my shoes that go to BMO every home game.

However, I have a breaking point and so do those others that are in similar shoes. The product was shit this year and I left games feeling frustrated, but still having a good time because of the SG's efforts and those alike myself that add to the atmosphere.

No atmosphere - I won't go.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 09:33 AM
^ very good point

Oldtimer
10-15-2010, 09:36 AM
it's not 'support' if you're doing it from your couch. :drinking:

Exactly. I'm a "fan" of my Euro clubs, not a "supporter."

MKR
10-15-2010, 09:36 AM
he's saying that he is scaling his TFC spending back to the barest minimum, without actually leaving the stadium. He outlined all the other things he paid for (outside events etc) but is changing how he will spend his time/money.

I think that's probably a much more reasonable and measured response than just outright dropping your tickets and walking away.

and let's just imagine that someone dropped their tickets, and the team actually got competitive. Then what? You'll be buying 'walk up' prices and getting hosed even worse.

oh come on. sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. If something is THAT bad that it upsets so many people and there's all this serious talk of action, then sorry if i scoff at a half assed protest.

"Rah rah i am done as a supporter! I will never buy drinks at the stadium, never buy shirts, etc I hate you MLSE!.... oh i'll take two of your cheapest seasons tix please and thank you."

Either you mean it or you don't.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 09:40 AM
Exactly. I'm a "fan" of my Euro clubs, not a "supporter."


I'm a 'fan' of Marseille.... but I'm making the pilgrimage to the Stade Velo in just over 4 weeks.

Will I call myself a supporter then? Nope, but will I have a deeper connection to the club and the city? Absolutely.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by torontocelt http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1150492#post1150492)
I just wikied him and he is the sporting director at real madrid where he was once a player, why would he want to come to tfc? I mean he is sporting director for possibly the biggest club in the world, he lives in a sweet ass city and he will be getting paid loads, why would he want to come to the MLS and TFC, I wouldn't! Why do you think this Jimmy?

I did the same thing and was always wondering about this too. He can do it as a sideline and stay with Real Madrid?


Guys cmon, thats like asking Steve Yzerman, to go and help the last place team in a Latvian senior mens house league. Guys this is the MLS........dont lose sight of that

i dunno, seems alot more realistic than some of the DP names that get thrown around

Pookie
10-15-2010, 09:48 AM
Let me remind you what day one was like. The stadium was full. As it was the rest of them home dates. Long before the SG's brought the atmosphere there were people who had ponied up their money on day 1 of the franchise existence and were waiting for the first day to watch the new Toronto football team.


Well, about 1,000 people ponied up their money on Day 1 of the Beckham Announcement so let's not pretend that every one of them was a loyal TFC fan from the get go.

The team was originally sold on hype, a lot of it fueled by the timing of Beckham signing. And let's talk about how much money was ponied up in the beginning. The relative low cost of season tickets... remember this:

TORONTO – Toronto FC announced season seat prices Tuesday for the 2007 Major League Soccer season. Seat prices start at $10, and 37% of Toronto FC season tickets are priced at $12 or less.

Full, half and partial season seat plans will be made available that include tickets for 16 regular season home games and up to four International Friendly matches. A special season seat package for children under the age of 14 years has been created, which provides a savings of up to 54% off the single ticket prices. Fans who buy tickets before December 31, 2006 can take advantage of early bird pricing.

... got people (and scalpers) in the door. It was affordable and fun. You could actually take a family to game and not have to dip into your credit line to do so.

Once they got there, SG's gave them a reason to come back. Surely the team never did.

As the years went on, events/freebies that were part of the original package were removed. Pricing skyrocketed, the Blue Jay atmosphere was enforced and all we got for it were seat backed Cup Holders.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 09:56 AM
Alright lets start the email campaign to get him to buy TFC, how do we get a hold of this guy lol

not every billionaires a blessing, ask the jambos

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:02 AM
MLSE does not owe us anything - regardless of them using the atmosphere to drum up ticket sales etc. Does it suck getting fucked over like that sure..but don't expect a pat on the back and for an organization to start caving to your every whim.

torontocelt
10-15-2010, 10:04 AM
not every billionaires a blessing, ask the jambos

Oh good old Romanov, his five year plan included hearts competing in the later stages of the champions league, never quite worked out like that. He did give hearts a great year though, my friends were well happy with him at one point.

H Bomb
10-15-2010, 10:04 AM
MLSE does not owe us anything - regardless of them using the atmosphere to drum up ticket sales etc. Does it suck getting fucked over like that sure..but don't expect a pat on the back and for an organization to start caving to your every whim.


sorry dude but they owe "us" huge. It bothers me when people play the "they're a business, of course they're scum sucking douchebags, and that's okay cause money blah blah blah" game.


but more than that they're projections prior to starting will have been massively outdone and that would not have happened without a strong atmosphere. They owe us for the profit we've made them. Business is not inherently immoral.....why dont people see that

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:10 AM
sorry dude but they owe "us" huge. It bothers me when people play the "they're a business, of course they're scum sucking douchebags, and that's okay cause money blah blah blah" game.


but more than that they're projections prior to starting will have been massively outdone and that would not have happened without a strong atmosphere. They owe us for the profit we've made them. Business is not inherently immoral.....why dont people see that

How about if they never did sell it on us; would you still be there singing your heart out of course you would. What if they raised prices then would people be as equally upset or just simply figure just another price hike joy.

C.Ronaldo
10-15-2010, 10:12 AM
My number 1 question aside from all the obvious ones lately is TRANSIT.


Can the MLSE try to get the GO train times inline with game times or vice versa?

Can MLSE at least get GO buses that don't run on the lakeshore line to do a TFC fan pick up/drop off?


Is there any evidence that MLSE is trying to be green (the good green)

BFin
10-15-2010, 10:13 AM
it's not 'support' if you're doing it from your couch. :drinking:

Come on Parkie...we both know this is a silly statement.

Based on the definition of support, we both know you're wrong. Support is not determined by match attendance, it is determined by passion and dedication to a club. You don't have to bang a drum to say you do that on a daily basis.

supporter [səˈpɔːtə]n1. a person who or thing that acts as a support
2. a person who backs a sports team, politician, etc.

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 10:15 AM
My number 1 question aside from all the obvious ones lately is TRANSIT.


Can the MLSE try to get the GO train times inline with game times or vice versa?

Can MLSE at least get GO buses that don't run on the lakeshore line to do a TFC fan pick up/drop off?


Is there any evidence that MLSE is trying to be green (the good green)

I think those are the questions that derailed last nights session, judging by the comments earlier in the thread...

BFin
10-15-2010, 10:15 AM
sorry dude but they owe "us" huge. It bothers me when people play the "they're a business, of course they're scum sucking douchebags, and that's okay cause money blah blah blah" game.


but more than that they're projections prior to starting will have been massively outdone and that would not have happened without a strong atmosphere. They owe us for the profit we've made them. Business is not inherently immoral.....why dont people see that

They owe you the product on the field, which they have yet to provide. That's it. They don't owe you fuck all with respect to business decisions, ticket pricing etc.

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:16 AM
Also I understand comparing our season seat prices to the rest of the league but take into consideration the demand for seats in other cities as well. Toronto, Seattle, LA, maybe even New York are teams where there are simply more interested people wanting to go.

Saying holy shit supporters in Dallas only pay XX is a terrible comparison. Again supply and demand (regardless of it being artificial *cough* american housing market *cough*) is a very simple concept.

prizby
10-15-2010, 10:17 AM
Ansalami seems to think that only about 1000 fans are upset about the mls cup final...i wonder if we started a petition and sent it around how big we could get it

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:19 AM
People are pissed because it was a surprise..as has been mentioned if it had been an option the uptake would have been higher. It was a dumb business decision that I'm sure made sense in some analysts head at some point.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:19 AM
Come on Parkie...we both know this is a silly statement.

Based on the definition of support, we both know you're wrong. Support is not determined by match attendance, it is determined by passion and dedication to a club. You don't have to bang a drum to say you do that on a daily basis.

supporter [səˈpɔːtə]n1. a person who or thing that acts as a support
2. a person who backs a sports team, politician, etc.


I call balderdash.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/support

'support' means the players are 'supported' by your actions, and that means squat if you're watching them on TV. It's pretty cut-and-dry.

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 10:22 AM
Also I understand comparing our season seat prices to the rest of the league but take into consideration the demand for seats in other cities as well. Toronto, Seattle, LA, maybe even New York are teams where there are simply more interested people wanting to go.

Saying holy shit supporters in Dallas only pay XX is a terrible comparison. Again supply and demand (regardless of it being artificial *cough* american housing market *cough*) is a very simple concept.

Seattle's supporter's are paying $300/seat.

Just sayin'.

TOBOR !
10-15-2010, 10:23 AM
As per tweet from Gareth Wheeler "#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) doesn't look at other #MLS (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) teams when it comes to price schemes - they base it on Toronto prices. Why not base it on TO's performance?

Funny how ML$E controls the Toronto sports market pricing and because they overprice Leaf and Raptors tickets they feel obligated to gouge TFC fans as well...

it'll take someone much smarter than me to answer this question, but isn't ML$E running afoul of competition laws re: monopolizing the local major league sports scene and controlling pricing on all fronts to be higher (much higher) than league averages in all cases ?

Laugh me out of the room if you want, but they control the market. It's not like I can get pissed off and go and watch the Leafs or Raptors. I get that these are all different products, per se, but they're all in the same marketplace, and it's not like you can change your marketplace easily.

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:23 AM
Seattle's supporter's are paying $300/seat.

Just sayin'.

For renewal..net new this year was 400 from my understanding. At least the cheapest seats at Qwest are 400; not sure if they have a separate arrangement.

boomcha
10-15-2010, 10:24 AM
Oh yeah almost forgot this one ... not sure what the question was that led to this but Paul was going on about being able to please all the supporters groups but there are 16,000 other fans they need to worry about as well etc ... and all I was thinking was - where the f#$% is your head? You lose those 4K/"authentic gameday experience" and do you think for one second the rest will give a toss?

Case in point being the game versus RSL. 10K in the whole stadium but the south end was the only spot where it was almost full.

Yeah ignore us.. it really shows you that the rest of the people that comes to the games actually give a shit...

I was planning on going to the meeting on Thursday but I'm not so sure anymore, these people don't want to listen, all they care about is $$$. Same old BS answers.. market correction. I would like to make a banner that has says Market Correction and then a big giant middle finger.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 10:25 AM
I call balderdash.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/support

'support' means the players are 'supported' by your actions, and that means squat if you're watching them on TV. It's pretty cut-and-dry.

in fairness one could argue that watching the team on tv is an action in support of a team (mostly by saying not watching them is an inaction)

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:27 AM
in fairness one could argue that watching the team on tv is an action in support of a team (mostly by saying not watching them is an inaction)

does the team get 'supported' by knowing that someone is at home watching them on TV? Maybe, in a microscopic way.

are they 'supported' by chanting, singing, jumping people in the crowd? Yes, undeniably so.

DangerRed
10-15-2010, 10:29 AM
does the team get 'supported' by knowing that someone is at home watching them on TV? Maybe, in a microscopic way.

are they 'supported' by chanting, singing, jumping people in the crowd? Yes, undeniably so.

So then you shouldn't incorrectly argue that watching a team on TV is not supporting the team. You should argue that you're a bigger supporter if you go to the stadium, which is valid.

And in the context of the current situation, it's also worth examining who's doing more to protest what's happened: the guy who keeps his wallet in his pocket, stays at home and watches on TV, or the guy who yells a lot on the message boards but then turns around and renews his tickets.

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 10:30 AM
Lets not get into the "Support" discussion. It gets rather stupid, REALLY quickly. (and off topic)

Most North American's think Support is parking their ass on the couch. I disagree but can't really be bothered with them.

BFin
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
does the team get 'supported' by knowing that someone is at home watching them on TV? Maybe, in a microscopic way.

are they 'supported' by chanting, singing, jumping people in the crowd? Yes, undeniably so.

Oh boy Parkie.

So now I am no longer a supporter? lol

**slits wrists and sits down in front of his HDTV to die a casual fans death**

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
yeah, let's not get into this supporter-definition debate.

I'll just say, if you are NOT in the stadium, the players can't hear you cheer.

:topic: moving on

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
anywho my general point was that we did what any supporter would have done regardless if someone made a buck off you or not (sorry busy at work but will discuss over pints at joes :p)

mclaren
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
he's saying that he is scaling his TFC spending back to the barest minimum, without actually leaving the stadium. He outlined all the other things he paid for (outside events etc) but is changing how he will spend his time/money.

I think that's probably a much more reasonable and measured response than just outright dropping your tickets and walking away.

and let's just imagine that someone dropped their tickets, and the team actually got competitive. Then what? You'll be buying 'walk up' prices and getting hosed even worse.

Guess I'm not reasonable then because I can't afford this increase? I am dropping my season's tickets and so are two of my friends because of this.

canadian_bhoy
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
As per tweet from Gareth Wheeler "#TFC (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) doesn't look at other #MLS (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) teams when it comes to price schemes - they base it on Toronto prices. Why not base it on TO's performance?




I guess Jays and Argos don't count?????

You can get a Jays ticket for $11 (printed ticket price, not STH price). You can get bleachers in the outfield with a great view for $15.

And TFC shouldn't forget their other competition in the Toronto market. I can pay $15 to watch PPV football on a Saturday morning/afternoon.

So long story short - $26 as "based on Toronto prices" is complete BS.

billyfly
10-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Did we find out what kind of beer you can get with the drink tkts?

Pls don't tell me only Steam whistle.

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:34 AM
I guess Jays and Argos don't count?????

You can get a Jays ticket for $11 (printed ticket price, not STH price). You can get bleachers in the outfield with a great view for $15.

And TFC shouldn't forget their other competition in the Toronto market. I can pay $15 to watch PPV football on a Saturday morning/afternoon.

So long story short - $26 as "based on Toronto prices" is complete BS.

Agreed..but why can you also get tickets that low..cause attendance is significantly less then the capacity. Leafs and Raps are typically sold out regardless if majority of the seats are not true fans. So if you compare it to sell out events then their view isn't completely off base.

(again not wanting to get into the artificial demand being created by MLSE)

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:34 AM
Guess I'm not reasonable then because I can't afford this increase? I am dropping my season's tickets and so are two of my friends because of this.


I never said it was about 'not being able to afford the increase'.

that was never mentioned. We're talking about dropping as a form of protest, not because it's no longer affordable.

phonzo
10-15-2010, 10:36 AM
Did we find out what kind of beer you can get with the drink tkts?

Pls don't tell me only Steam whistle.

billy brings up a good point.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 10:36 AM
does the team get 'supported' by knowing that someone is at home watching them on TV? Maybe, in a microscopic way.

are they 'supported' by chanting, singing, jumping people in the crowd? Yes, undeniably so.

sure but tv ratings no?

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 10:37 AM
Lets not get into the "Support" discussion. It gets rather stupid, REALLY quickly. (and off topic)

Most North American's think Support is parking their ass on the couch. I disagree but can't really be bothered with them.

true, couldnt help myself

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:38 AM
sure but tv ratings no?

If a player is out there on the field, thinking about TV ratings......

maybe if their salary was somehow tied to the ratings, but I can't see that being much of a factor.

hell... they might as well be thinking about merch sales and partypoker sponsorships.

Hitcho
10-15-2010, 10:45 AM
Listen I don't give two shits if a two bit fan wants to buy a Marlies pack, but when you have a REAL SUPPORTER like me, who literally lives and breathes Toronto FC, it's insulting to open your email and see the "WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE MARLIES VALUE PACK JUST FOR YOU"

For 4 years now I've been voicing my disappointment and for 4 years this stupid pack has not gone away.

I thought you weren't around for the early days and season one etc? Now you were voicing disappointment about this from day one? Someone's not playing truthfully Jimmy.. :D

I've never had to suffer Marlie packs but the very concept of it pisses me off no end. It's no different to tieing your TFC tickets to a Celine Dion concert that takes place in the ACC. It's an insult and an abuse of the fans. Although the only way they will ever get rid of it is if enough people stop buying them so that it starts to hurt their ticket sales, which seems unlikely.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 10:51 AM
I thought you weren't around for the early days and season one etc? Now you were voicing disappointment about this from day one? Someone's not playing truthfully Jimmy.. :D

I've never had to suffer Marlie packs but the very concept of it pisses me off no end. It's no different to tieing your TFC tickets to a Celine Dion concert that takes place in the ACC. It's an insult and an abuse of the fans. Although the only way they will ever get rid of it is if enough people stop buying them so that it starts to hurt their ticket sales, which seems unlikely.


hahaha... Jimmy got caught fibbing.



as for the marlies thing - it's never been an issue for me, but then again, I've owned a season ticket for 4 years and never had to deal with waiting list bullshit.

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 10:52 AM
true, couldnt help myself

No worries. I've seen you around these boards for years. I'll cut you some slack. ;)

BFin
10-15-2010, 10:55 AM
So then you shouldn't incorrectly argue that watching a team on TV is not supporting the team. You should argue that you're a bigger supporter if you go to the stadium, which is valid.

And in the context of the current situation, it's also worth examining who's doing more to protest what's happened: the guy who keeps his wallet in his pocket, stays at home and watches on TV, or the guy who yells a lot on the message boards but then turns around and renews his tickets.

Ba-zinga.

__wowza
10-15-2010, 10:56 AM
I've never had to suffer Marlie packs but the very concept of it pisses me off no end. It's no different to tieing your TFC tickets to a Celine Dion concert that takes place in the ACC. It's an insult and an abuse of the fans. Although the only way they will ever get rid of it is if enough people stop buying them so that it starts to hurt their ticket sales, which seems unlikely.

i have a few buddies who are marlies fans, we managed to split the cost 50/50 on those packs, and that's the only reason why i was able to take that shit. the "hey, you're a footy fan, you must like hockey too!" implication it reeked of actually made my stomach turn

JamboAl
10-15-2010, 10:56 AM
not every billionaires a blessing, ask the jambos

OY! Keep my Jambos and our crazed Dear Leader Romanov out of this one! :) TFC is much different from Hearts. I want better from Hearts, I expect better from TFC.

__wowza
10-15-2010, 11:01 AM
So then you shouldn't incorrectly argue that watching a team on TV is not supporting the team. You should argue that you're a bigger supporter if you go to the stadium, which is valid.

And in the context of the current situation, it's also worth examining who's doing more to protest what's happened: the guy who keeps his wallet in his pocket, stays at home and watches on TV, or the guy who yells a lot on the message boards but then turns around and renews his tickets.


TAKE A BOW SON!! TAKE A BOW!!

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/andy-gray-415x275.jpg

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 11:02 AM
And in the context of the current situation, it's also worth examining who's doing more to protest what's happened: the guy who keeps his wallet in his pocket, stays at home and watches on TV, or the guy who yells a lot on the message boards but then turns around and renews his tickets.

the guy who's in the stands with a big green banner still has a voice. The guy at home doesn't.

this is about the stands, not the message boards. Nice logic leap though

boban
10-15-2010, 11:03 AM
DO NOT MISS OUT ON THE TOWNHALL NEXT MONDAY. If we go in organized and well prepared they will get out message. Ansemli seems like a good enough guy, but you have to beat the MLSE spin machine out of them. Be prepared. Hold them accountable.
I think this is key. MLSE didn't drop the CCL games after the first few days. It was only after weeks of calls and emails of displeasure. The same has to be thought of with these townhall meetings. They have to be relentlessly dogged and pressured at ever meeting. Maybe then they will have a rethink of how they are handling this whole mess. This was only the 1st period boys. Lots of time left.

BFin
10-15-2010, 11:05 AM
the guy who's in the stands with a big green banner still has a voice. The guy at home doesn't.

this is about the stands, not the message boards. Nice logic leap though

I wouldn't call it a logic leap at all. In fact, on might argue that it is a hell of a lot more logical than bitching and moaning about prices and performance, and then renewing your seats.

Shit or get off the pot. That is my opinion.

Parkdale
10-15-2010, 11:07 AM
I wouldn't call it a logic leap at all. In fact, on might argue that it is a hell of a lot more logical than bitching and moaning about prices and performance, and then renewing your seats.

Shit or get off the pot. That is my opinion.


I'd rather do my shitting at the field, with big green banners to make a point.

BFin
10-15-2010, 11:09 AM
lol yah, big point.

"I paid for these seats, but I'm mad as hell about it! LOOK AT MY GREEN SIGN TOO!!" as opposed to "I will not pay for your seats anymore, until you correct your mistakes and make this a viable club."

__wowza
10-15-2010, 11:09 AM
:topic:

tfcleeds
10-15-2010, 11:15 AM
the guy who's in the stands with a big green banner still has a voice. The guy at home doesn't.



I would argue that by not renewing (or in my case as a non-STH, not paying for a match ticket) I AM making my voice heard. There is only one language MLSE understands. And by not helping to fill up their coffers, by adding one more empty seat at BMO at gameday, that's the only way they will sit up and take notice.

torontocelt
10-15-2010, 11:16 AM
Did we find out what kind of beer you can get with the drink tkts?

Pls don't tell me only Steam whistle.

I like steam whistle but there were others... I noticed carlsberg, maybe 6 different beers?

P-NUTZ
10-15-2010, 11:19 AM
well i went last night with a buddy and the posts accounting for what went on are fairly correct.

There were some dunces in attendance, but there were so few people there that those who want to, really need to go and have your say as you will have ample opportunity.

But prepare your questions and dont go tipsy. i had a few pops at shoeless and my friend and i talked about our questions but i fucked it all up when my chances came to ask them.

That said: I basically asked why fans should trust MLSE after their poor winning records with TFC, Leafs and Raps - and why should we think going forward things will be different.
TA said ya we really screwed it up and we're getting the right people together but cant say who they are, but the help they are soliciting are good experienced footy folks who will make the difference.

I also asked that based on whats transpired over the last 4 years, and considering how oblivious they appeared to the real concerns of the fans this past month, have they underestimated what they were in for and are/were they undermanned and/or unprepared to run this club properly. TA basically grumbled out a yes/maybe.

Then after at the open floor one on one chats I was a little more tipsy and basically said straight up to TA that considering the $ and clout of MLSE we should be killing this league and dominating - and how it's embarrassing. He was appearing solemn and said he totally agreed. I then went to the interim Gm and asked if there is now a stigma the club has to overcome in trying to attract the best staff and players going forward, to which he vehemently said no -not at all, and tfc is a hotter, more appealing prospect to candidates in the market than people think. Finally i then went to PB and said the fans are getting nothing for their effort and that like any good company, they should pony up with stuff to help the fans feel better about whats happened over the years. And other than winning, little things like freebies, gift cards, swags, discounts etc were common gestures companies make to disappointed customers - which they could get going with in an elementary effort to give something back.

And as far as them changing pricing - the specifics they answered were that they had fucked up pricing from the beginning. Cheaper seats were too cheap - and there were many areas in the stands where one seat was way too cheap compared to the price of the one right next to it in another 'section'. So PB said they were basically fixing that mistake.

So be prepared and let them have it. all you can do is speak your voice and get some consolation in the fact you were able to get directly to the source. and who knows, maybe it will pay off.

ElvistheEvilScotsman
10-15-2010, 11:39 AM
And as far as them changing pricing - the specifics they answered were that they had fucked up pricing from the beginning. Cheaper seats were too cheap - and there were many areas in the stands where one seat was way too cheap compared to the price of the one right next to it in another 'section'. So PB said they were basically fixing that mistake.

So hypothetically if the SGs walk away from renewing MLSE will have the balls to charge $800/seasons ticket in these sections?

That's laughable!

Roogsy
10-15-2010, 12:07 PM
he's saying that he is scaling his TFC spending back to the barest minimum, without actually leaving the stadium. He outlined all the other things he paid for (outside events etc) but is changing how he will spend his time/money.

I think that's probably a much more reasonable and measured response than just outright dropping your tickets and walking away.

and let's just imagine that someone dropped their tickets, and the team actually got competitive. Then what? You'll be buying 'walk up' prices and getting hosed even worse.


Bingo. Sparky's got it.

Last year I easily spent $5000 at BMO Field between tickets and concessions and gear.

This year, that number dropped because I did not spend on concessions but still paid $3000 for my tickets.

Next year, all they will get out of me is the $800 for my 2 south end tickets.

If that is not a measured but still noticeable way to send a message, I am not sure anything is. I'm quite sure MLS will feel my $4000 drop in spending a whole lot more than they will my last $800.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 12:13 PM
No worries. I've seen you around these boards for years. I'll cut you some slack. ;)
:D:D

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 12:14 PM
OY! Keep my Jambos and our crazed Dear Leader Romanov out of this one! :) TFC is much different from Hearts. I want better from Hearts, I expect better from TFC.

HAHA totally reasonable

Beach_Red
10-15-2010, 12:17 PM
Lets not get into the "Support" discussion. It gets rather stupid, REALLY quickly. (and off topic)

Most North American's think Support is parking their ass on the couch. I disagree but can't really be bothered with them.

It does get tiresome, but it's also hard to see this, "most north Americans," all the time. Maybe most Canadians, but you might want to check out some NCAA sports in the USA.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-15-2010, 12:18 PM
So be prepared and let them have it. all you can do is speak your voice and get some consolation in the fact you were able to get directly to the source. and who knows, maybe it will pay off.

yep, be as articulate and calm as possible but dont let back on the anger.
puts a face to those dollar signs, i sincerely believe this

Mikey
10-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Did anyone ask them over how many seasons are they planning to bring the south end tickets up into the same price as the north end? three? five? etc

Roogsy
10-15-2010, 12:21 PM
Did anyone ask them over how many seasons are they planning to bring the south end tickets up into the same price as the north end? three? five? etc


I am surprised nobody has asked so far.

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 12:22 PM
It does get tiresome, but it's also hard to see this, "most north Americans," all the time. Maybe most Canadians, but you might want to check out some NCAA sports in the USA.

Yes I should retract that. They have some crazy NCAA fans down south. I guess its the closest thing to a "club" when you are attending a University.

Roogsy
10-15-2010, 12:23 PM
Yes I should retract that. They have some crazy NCAA fans down south. I guess its the closest thing to a "club" when you are attending a University.


Yup...I find Canadians to be the ones that are more withdrawn in the support of their team. Americans are very active, dedicated and involved.

Beach_Red
10-15-2010, 12:24 PM
Yes I should retract that. They have some crazy NCAA fans down south. I guess its the closest thing to a "club" when you are attending a University.

Yeah, it's another thing that makes this screwing up of TFC even worse -we were finally getting something like it in Canada. Let's hope we can get it back on track.

jloome
10-15-2010, 12:26 PM
well i went last night with a buddy and the posts accounting for what went on are fairly correct.

There were some dunces in attendance, but there were so few people there that those who want to, really need to go and have your say as you will have ample opportunity.

But prepare your questions and dont go tipsy. i had a few pops at shoeless and my friend and i talked about our questions but i fucked it all up when my chances came to ask them.

That said: I basically asked why fans should trust MLSE after their poor winning records with TFC, Leafs and Raps - and why should we think going forward things will be different.
TA said ya we really screwed it up and we're getting the right people together but cant say who they are, but the help they are soliciting are good experienced footy folks who will make the difference.

I also asked that based on whats transpired over the last 4 years, and considering how oblivious they appeared to the real concerns of the fans this past month, have they underestimated what they were in for and are/were they undermanned and/or unprepared to run this club properly. TA basically grumbled out a yes/maybe.

Then after at the open floor one on one chats I was a little more tipsy and basically said straight up to TA that considering the $ and clout of MLSE we should be killing this league and dominating - and how it's embarrassing. He was appearing solemn and said he totally agreed. I then went to the interim Gm and asked if there is now a stigma the club has to overcome in trying to attract the best staff and players going forward, to which he vehemently said no -not at all, and tfc is a hotter, more appealing prospect to candidates in the market than people think. Finally i then went to PB and said the fans are getting nothing for their effort and that like any good company, they should pony up with stuff to help the fans feel better about whats happened over the years. And other than winning, little things like freebies, gift cards, swags, discounts etc were common gestures companies make to disappointed customers - which they could get going with in an elementary effort to give something back.

And as far as them changing pricing - the specifics they answered were that they had fucked up pricing from the beginning. Cheaper seats were too cheap - and there were many areas in the stands where one seat was way too cheap compared to the price of the one right next to it in another 'section'. So PB said they were basically fixing that mistake.

So be prepared and let them have it. all you can do is speak your voice and get some consolation in the fact you were able to get directly to the source. and who knows, maybe it will pay off.

This is why I hate the fact that the media environment is becoming corporate; two guys can stand up and say "hey, we fucked up from day one," after four years, and that alleged show of humility is somehow enough to keep them employed.

Anytime senior management -- whether in business, civic government (it's epidemic) or top-tier politics -- is hiring consultant "experts" to do the job, it's a pretty clear sign the wrong people are in the full-time positions.

scooterTFC
10-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Seattle's supporter's are paying $300/seat.

Just sayin'.

Its just a supply and demand thing. If fan interest (aka demand) is equal in both cities but TFC has 15k less seats to sell at BMO vs the Sounders capacity at Qwest then the median price in Toronto should be higher.

If Ticket Demand is equal (Seattle=Toronto) and Seat Supply in Seattle much greater then Toronto (Stadium capacity in Seattle>Toronto) then median ticket prices in Toronto should be higher.

If we TFC had more seats to sell then we'd be paying less.

Roogsy
10-15-2010, 01:12 PM
If we TFC had more seats to sell then we'd be paying less.

You'd think wouldn't you?

And yet TFC added 1200 seats this year and we still saw a double digit price hike.

How does that work exactly?

AL-MO
10-15-2010, 01:13 PM
You'd think wouldn't you?

And yet TFC added 1200 seats this year and we still saw a double digit price hike.

How does that work exactly?

Seats that were never full this year. LOL

kaos197O
10-15-2010, 01:55 PM
Seats that were never full this year. LOL

Seats that are one again being dumped on travelzoo this week

scooterTFC
10-15-2010, 02:09 PM
You'd think wouldn't you?

And yet TFC added 1200 seats this year and we still saw a double digit price hike.

How does that work exactly?

Its the same story demand>supply

The famous waiting list is supposed to have 20k+ people on it and they added 1.2k seats. The supply increase was not large enough to offset excess demand.

Roogsy
10-15-2010, 02:11 PM
Its the same story demand>supply

The famous waiting list is supposed to have 20k+ people on it and they added 1.2k seats. The supply increase was not large enough to offset excess demand.


If there was excess demand, why the empty seats? Why couldn't people sell their tickets? Why couldn't people give AWAY tickets? Why was this new section half-empty most of the time?

scooterTFC
10-15-2010, 02:14 PM
Seats that were never full this year. LOL
That's a good point. The reserved those for singe game buyers and they seemed to be pretty empty as the season wore on. So that a sign that either demand is dropping or that sales of single games seats from the box office fased stiff comptition from singe game seats from SSH and scalpers... probably a bit of both. Hence they are offering to sel those as season's tickets for next year.

I think the recent response from the FO on the renewals tells you they just found out that demand isn't as strong as they thought or that the price elasticity of demand curve is much steeper then they thought. Again both are probably true. The goal of quantitiatve revenue optimization models is to push prices to the upper limit of what customers are willing to pay. In a monopoly or lilmited competiticion situation if you don't have a few customers upset about prices then you are probably not chargin enough.

TFC07
10-15-2010, 02:22 PM
Its just a supply and demand thing. If fan interest (aka demand) is equal in both cities but TFC has 15k less seats to sell at BMO vs the Sounders capacity at Qwest then the median price in Toronto should be higher.

If Ticket Demand is equal (Seattle=Toronto) and Seat Supply in Seattle much greater then Toronto (Stadium capacity in Seattle>Toronto) then median ticket prices in Toronto should be higher.

If we TFC had more seats to sell then we'd be paying less.

In theory this is true, but reality is MLSE would increase ticket prices if (or should I say when?) BMO field expands to 30,000 seats for Pan AM games.

ArmenJBX
10-15-2010, 02:59 PM
LOL I was a supporter in year one, just not on the boards. I watched every game and followed the team though, I just wasn't registered on any of the forums.

Year 1 I went to I believe 5 games. Now it's a bit more frequent. You can believe me when I say I've been here since day 1, and, sorry to say, I voted for Inter Toronto and not Toronto FC :D

Hitcho
10-15-2010, 03:05 PM
sorry to say, I voted for Inter Toronto and not Toronto FC :D

:jaw: Never admit that in public again dude! :D

Pookie
10-15-2010, 03:09 PM
That's a good point. The reserved those for singe game buyers and they seemed to be pretty empty as the season wore on. So that a sign that either demand is dropping or that sales of single games seats from the box office fased stiff comptition from singe game seats from SSH and scalpers... probably a bit of both. Hence they are offering to sel those as season's tickets for next year.



The funny thing about this is that the supposed plan for the North End was to market these to Red Listers who had never been to a TFC game.

Paul mentioned on a few occassions that they were concerned about growing exposure for their brand. They held these seats back from season ticket sales as a result so that new fans could get into BMO.

And then as a special thank you for their patience on the Red List, they went ahead and rewarded these fans by pricing this behind the goal (non-supporter) section as the most expensive behind the goal (non-supporter) section in all of MLS.

But on the plus side they gave them Cup Holders.

BFin
10-15-2010, 03:25 PM
If there was excess demand, why the empty seats? Why couldn't people sell their tickets? Why couldn't people give AWAY tickets? Why was this new section half-empty most of the time?

I think you just reiterated his point Roogs. He was saying the same thing as you.

werewolf
10-15-2010, 06:33 PM
Has no one asked about security? Anselmi may not have direct authority over them, but the security company is hired for the facility, and has been a constant source of negativity since Season I.

Section 117
10-15-2010, 06:51 PM
Almo you can't use Seattle as a comparison. They have over 30k facility. Also a little known fact is Seahwack fans had to buy tickets to sounders tickets as well. I am just saying Seattle is not the best comparison. Are seats were cheaper then their in the first two years anyways.

tfcleeds
10-15-2010, 08:27 PM
Almo you can't use Seattle as a comparison. They have over 30k facility. Also a little known fact is Seahwack fans had to buy tickets to sounders tickets as well. I am just saying Seattle is not the best comparison. Are seats were cheaper then their in the first two years anyways.

I don't know, but one thing you can say is they've gone about things the RIGHT way. I know we were all taking the piss out of them when they first entered the league, with Drew Carey et al, but we can only dream of an FO that has a relationship with the supporters like they do. And given the success they've had relative to us in their short existence, I wouldn't mind paying the extra $$.

ag futbol
10-15-2010, 08:38 PM
If there was excess demand, why the empty seats? Why couldn't people sell their tickets? Why couldn't people give AWAY tickets? Why was this new section half-empty most of the time?
Bingo.

BTW when did MLSE and TFC as an extension of start selling a commodity? You price a barrel of oil, bushels of wheat, ounces of gold with supply and demand. You do not use that kind of esoteric analysis with something like tickets for a soccer team. TFC is a business with customers, relationships, and goodwill to think about.

Always taking people to their limits through "supply and demand" is not going to do you any favors in the long run. We are not leafs, we do not have an endless amount of goodwill to suck out of our fans. We also do not have a huge mass of fans to begin with, or an environment where a bunch of corporate zombies can punch their blackberry for the duration of the game while occasionally looking up to see what is going on. BMO field and the weather coming off the lake are a little different than the ACC.

TFC should be about growing its customer base. Through a quality product on the pitch and the relationships they have with people off it. Once that is strong enough, then you can start being pretty aggressive about raising prices.

scooterTFC
10-15-2010, 09:37 PM
If there was excess demand, why the empty seats? Why couldn't people sell their tickets? Why couldn't people give AWAY tickets? Why was this new section half-empty most of the time?

Perhaps I should have used quotes in my reference to the 'famous' 20k person waiting list. That waiting list theoretically represent excess demand. But I don't think MLSE has requalified that list lately so I suspect full of false positives.

Price elasticity of demand is another factor. I think its well known that they over-priced the single game seats in the north end. Also remember that single game seats and season tickets are different products. Its hard to sell single game seats in the midst of a losing seaons... where-as season tix are sold prior to the year. But yes you are correct in that they should have figured out that low level of demand for the single game seats from the people on the waiting list was an indication of waning demand.

My comments are generally in reference to the theory behind revenue optimization models and really speaks to techniques that MLSE probably uses to set pricing and build forecasts. The theory is that in monopoly or limited competition scenarios your pricing should always test the limits of what customers are willing to pay (if a few customers aren't complaining about the price its means your not charging enough... refer to Rogers cable TV pricing strategies as an example).

So to maxmize revenue you just methodically increase prices overtime until you reach the upper threshold of what customers will pay (which is the point at which the opportunity cost of revenue reduciton from lost customers exceeds the incremental revenue from higher prices). Its theory, and the price adjustments only work if you have a accurate research and insight into consumer behavior. Big companies often basterdize the theories to rationalize decisions, executives get over confident and don't conduct the nessesary research or ignore the reasearch and they underestimate price elasticity of demand or they over estimate gross demand.

I think the clubs actions in this renewal cycle show us they underestimated the slope of the price elacticity of demand curve and also over estimated gross demand.

Macksam
10-15-2010, 09:46 PM
but why would I watch TFC when I could be watching... (insert giant Euro club name here)? The quality of play is better, the goals are... existent. I like watching TFC live because it's my home team. I sure as hell wouldn't be watching them at all if they weren't.

They would still be your home team when you're at home watching them on TV.

scooterTFC
10-15-2010, 09:52 PM
Bingo.

BTW when did MLSE and TFC as an extension of start selling a commodity? You price a barrel of oil, bushels of wheat, ounces of gold with supply and demand. You do not use that kind of esoteric analysis with something like tickets for a soccer team. TFC is a business with customers, relationships, and goodwill to think about.

Always taking people to their limits through "supply and demand" is not going to do you any favors in the long run. We are not leafs, we do not have an endless amount of goodwill to suck out of our fans. We also do not have a huge mass of fans to begin with, or an environment where a bunch of corporate zombies can punch their blackberry for the duration of the game while occasionally looking up to see what is going on. BMO field and the weather coming off the lake are a little different than the ACC.

TFC should be about growing its customer base. Through a quality product on the pitch and the relationships they have with people off it. Once that is strong enough, then you can start being pretty aggressive about raising prices.

In good companies executive respect the value of customer relationships and realize the lifetime value is greater then the value of the next sales tranaction alone. But lots of business chase revenue and profit in the short run (of profit center managers look to spike the numbers quickly to build their careers).

I'm not saying I agree with how they are treating us as customers. It sucks. I'm just telling you how pricing models work in these types of businesses. Quantitative research and statistical analyis can be used to build propensity models that enable companies turn 'esoteric' theories in a very practical decision models. This stuff is used by banks, insurnance companies, telcos etc... from a business profitability standpoint its proven to work.

wzhxvy
10-15-2010, 10:43 PM
Lets think about this. These two clowns...and you know who I am refering to..what did they accomplish before they took over TFC ? If they were brilliant or highly regarded within MLSE, they would have been assigned on either the Leafs or Raptors. In reality, they got lucky TFC took off, and these under accomplished, second tier managers, thought they were geniuses. Now we are dealing with the reality and after math of their mistakes.. they screwed up a good thing and they are trying to recover. Lets hope they realize now that they need to hire strong accomplished people around them to shelter them from the spotlight.

No town hall is going to resolve this. They just need to look in the mirror and come to the realization they are minor leaguers.

koryo
10-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Lets think about this. These two clowns...and you know who I am refering to..what did they accomplish before they took over TFC ? If they were brilliant or highly regarded within MLSE, they would have been assigned on either the Leafs or Raptors. In reality, they got lucky TFC took off, and these under accomplished, second tier managers, thought they were geniuses. Now we are dealing with the reality and after math of their mistakes.. they screwed up a good thing and they are trying to recover. Lets hope they realize now that they need to hire strong accomplished people around them to shelter them from the spotlight.

No town hall is going to resolve this. They just need to look in the mirror and come to the realization they are minor leaguers.

Well put. The only thing they done to-date was to build their brand on the backs of the people who paid their money to walk through the turnstiles. The rest? Nothing short of dereliction.

That lot upstairs need bloody shooting for how they've carried on.

ag futbol
10-15-2010, 11:03 PM
In good companies executive respect the value of customer relationships and realize the lifetime value is greater then the value of the next sales tranaction alone. But lots of business chase revenue and profit in the short run (of profit center managers look to spike the numbers quickly to build their careers).

I'm not saying I agree with how they are treating us as customers. It sucks. I'm just telling you how pricing models work in these types of businesses. Quantitative research and statistical analyis can be used to build propensity models that enable companies turn 'esoteric' theories in a very practical decision models. This stuff is used by banks, insurnance companies, telcos etc... from a business profitability standpoint its proven to work.
I am well aware of what these statistical models are used for, I have designed more than a few of them. They are only as good as the people creating them and are not bulletproof.

I believe they can work , but fundamentally how successful your model is will depend on understanding and integrating the qualitative factors that make up your business into your analysis.

You really think TFC has done a good job of this? I think given their back-peddling this week we already have our answer.

Macksam
10-15-2010, 11:04 PM
Well put. The only thing they done to-date was to build their brand on the backs of the people to paid their money to walk through the turnstiles. The rest? Nothing short of dereliction.

That lot upstairs need bloody shooting for how they've carried on.
Or flogging with wet belts at the very least. I would call for sexual violence as well, but that might be going too far.

koryo
10-15-2010, 11:33 PM
Or flogging with wet belts at the very least. I would call for sexual violence as well, but that might be going too far.

I know Columbus is in town but steady on :D

How about putting them in racks in't town square so passers by can pelt them with rotting produce?

BTW: Pookie's avatar & signature are top-shelf. Just thought I'd mention that.

leosc
10-15-2010, 11:41 PM
Ansalami seems to think that only about 1000 fans are upset about the mls cup final...i wonder if we started a petition and sent it around how big we could get it
It's more than 1000. If you start the petition, it's got my signature on it already.

Auzzy
10-16-2010, 01:45 AM
Price elasticity of demand is another factor. I think its well known that they over-priced the single game seats in the north end. Also remember that single game seats and season tickets are different products. Its hard to sell single game seats in the midst of a losing seaons... where-as season tix are sold prior to the year. But yes you are correct in that they should have figured out that low level of demand for the single game seats from the people on the waiting list was an indication of waning demand.


Your post was very interesting. Just a comment on this part: did you mean the north end tickets were overpriced in 2010, or looking forward to 2011? This year, I thought the North End prices were high, but still barely OK if no cheaper seats were available ($40 per ticket, or $51 for "premium" games).

That's why I think it's totally nuts that in 2011, they want to raise the prices for North End single seats by 27.5% !?! ($51 for regular games, $61 for premium.) In 2010 the North end singles were priced the same as medium gray. In 2011, the north end singles will be priced halfway between medium & dark gray, while the new north end season's tickets will be even closer to the medium gray prices (at 62% of the price difference between the medium & dark grey). I just don't think the north end seats are that good.

I can't make it to the town halls, but based on the management's responses so far, I would love to ask:

- In addition to the SSH pricing problems due to MLS Cup, extra CCL games, and general increase in per-game prices, season ticket holders are getting hit by the two extra league games. TFC's average per-games costs are reduced due to those extra games, as yearly salaries (for players, for example) do not increase. So TFC's profits can increase just due to those extra games. Why wasn't this the perfect year to freeze the per-game prices for everyone -- especially after a crappy season?

- The expensive seats (dark gray, red, and above) are not selling well. Many people are looking to relocate out of those seats to cheaper sections. Most of the time it's impossible to sell the expensive seats at anywhere near their actual prices, if a SSH has to miss a game for example. If TFC feel they need to make price "adjustments" to bring some of the prices in different sections closer to each other -- isn't it obvious that SSH prices for dark gray & above have to be REDUCED, given the supply-demand situation for expensive seats? (Rather than increasing the per-game costs of the cheapest seats by an above-average amount.)

DichioTFC
10-16-2010, 06:19 AM
We have all been suckers for 4 seasons. Now it stops for me.

They lost a dedicated supporter today. I love this city, and I love soccer. I am quite sure I love both of these more than these...well...I don't want to break board rules so I won't actually call them what I want to call them. But you get the gist. But I am nobody patsy. That's exactly what they want from us and exactly what they hope to achieve through this sham of "townhall" meetings. If there will be no changes, what exactly is the purpose of holding them if only to patronize fans into believing they are part of the process and being heard when in fact they simply return to their offices and forget it all ever happened and simply plan how they will be hiking prices next year again?

I used to support all their initiatives. The 90th minute party, their foundation event, everything. Never again. I am paying for my 2 cheapest tickets and nothing more. I will never buy concessions at BMO Field again, I will never pay for parking at the CNE and I will never attend any more of their MLSE events. They can take their smugness and scam somebody else out of thousands of dollars.

Yeah, I'm totally leaning this way as well. I've traveled across North America for this team and what they give in return is rhetoric and downplay legitimate concerns. If nothing changes despite hundreds of customers explicitly demanding changes, I really wont have an answer to why I support this team. I felt like this team was a part of me and my life. Now its pretty much the Blue Jays of soccer.


I call myself a casual supporter. Why is that, because I "fell in love" with atmosphere that SG's created and not the product itself. If I wanted to go watch good football, I'd just watch EPL/La Liga etc. from the comfort of my home on an HDTV and cheap beer.

I go to games because I enjoy watching it with passionate fans that create a want in me to go watch with them live and join them with the chanting.

If this goes, I go too. I honestly feel there are THOUSANDS in my shoes that go to BMO every home game. However, I have a breaking point and so do those others that are in similar shoes. The product was shit this year and I left games feeling frustrated, but still having a good time because of the SG's efforts and those alike myself that add to the atmosphere.

No atmosphere - I won't go.

Hell, I remember my first TFC game at BMO. It was May of 2009 against L'Impact on a Wednesday night. I was sitting in 221 I think and I was watching the RPBs in 112 more than I was watching the game. Thats why I follow this team, not because Toronto FC is some stellar product but because of the atmosphere and entertainment factors.

But if ML$E kills that, I'll have no reason to attend. I was always a casual soccer fan, the first soccer team I loved is TFC. I know others have Liverpool or Man U or Barca close to their hearts, but TFC is the first club I ever loved and it really is because of the RPBs and the atmosphere they created.

Atmosphere goes, I go.


This is why I hate the fact that the media environment is becoming corporate; two guys can stand up and say "hey, we fucked up from day one," after four years, and that alleged show of humility is somehow enough to keep them employed.


I cant go to because of distance, but I sincerely someone takes my question and runs with it:
Whose fault was it that Mo was hired in the first place? Tom Anselmi
Whose fault was it that Mo was promoted, despite lack of results? Tom Anselmi
Whose fault was it that Mo's got a job extension despite last year's failure in New York? Tom Anselmi
If we don't make the playoffs next year, who should be fired? ...

IMO, Anselmi's neck is on the chopping block for this mess. As far as I'm concerned, he's as culpable as Mo.

TFCRegina
10-16-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm waiting for the Pookie short on these townhalls.

DichioTFC
10-16-2010, 05:10 PM
^ LOL!!!! Starring Dan Gargan featuring an angry mob?

scooterTFC
10-17-2010, 12:32 AM
I am well aware of what these statistical models are used for, I have designed more than a few of them. They are only as good as the people creating them and are not bulletproof.

I believe they can work , but fundamentally how successful your model is will depend on understanding and integrating the qualitative factors that make up your business into your analysis.

You really think TFC has done a good job of this? I think given their back-peddling this week we already have our answer.

I don't think I've ever said they are doing a good job.

Clearly they've done a poor job. They're openly admitting they screwed up on the season ticket package and price.

I'm just trying to explain some of the basic concepts of service pricing strategy to those who aren't familiar.

If you've sat in the board room for pricing meetings then you know exactly how big company executives screw up pricing decisions... they basterdize the quantitative models to reinforce their biased personal opinions instead of using the objective facts.

I see it all the time, classic ivory tower stuff, taking customers for granted, overestimating demand, underestimating price sensitivity.... ussually this means the finance guys won the fight in the price meeting.

TFCRegina
10-17-2010, 11:38 AM
^ LOL!!!! Starring Dan Gargan featuring an angry mob?

Dan Gargan and Tommy A, and maybe even a Thierry Henry cameo! :D

Gixmo
10-17-2010, 12:18 PM
I know we're all looking for good news. Unfortunately that's the only name I've heard.

Can you substantiate any of the information from your countless postings.
Perhaps it's beneficial to just chill out a little bit... Maybe get outside and enjoy the outdoors.

Thrillos
10-18-2010, 08:42 AM
A question I would love to ask myself tonight at the townhall meeting but can't, due to being in ottawa, is that if BMO field does expand, how much will our season tickets be going down. Based on the fact that Anselmi stated that BPL teams have lower ticket prices because of increased stadia size. 22k to 30k (the proposed increase) is almost a 50% jump, so what would our season ticket price become then. As well as why an increase in tickets with the north end addition only brought higher prices. Based on his previous comments, of more seats mean lower prices.

He was quoted as saying that somewhere. I think the first town hall meeting. Anyway if someone going would ask that I would love to hear his response.

ochos
10-18-2010, 03:18 PM
Quick question I'll post in any ticket renewal/protest/town hall meeting/MLSE related thread:

Is it worth it for those of us who've yet to renew to call our ticket agents today and demand a price deduction or else we're not renewing?

Based on the response I may or may not make a new poll/thread (yay! Another protest related thread...)

Chevy
10-18-2010, 06:19 PM
Dan Gargan and Tommy A, and maybe even a Thierry Henry cameo! :D

LOL. Maybe Thierry bunking at Gargan's place during MLS final weekend.

cmonyoureds
10-18-2010, 06:20 PM
seeing as it sounds like the important questions were asked at the original town hall meetings, judging from the thread, and no real answers were given, should we just boycott the rest of the town halls?

Chevy
10-18-2010, 06:38 PM
^^ I would say figure out the ONE question that needs to be answered, and ask it over and over again for the duration of the last town hall.

spark
10-18-2010, 06:41 PM
Ask if Barry McLean is still involved with the club.

ElvistheEvilScotsman
10-18-2010, 06:56 PM
Ask if they will ever get off their arses and coordinate the go train schedule with game times.

Sullivan
10-18-2010, 07:32 PM
Another open Town Hall tonight, 6-7 PM.

Then another 2 open sessons on Thursday 6-7, then 7:30-8:30.
The double on Thursday doesn't leave much time for informal discussion after the 1st town hall.

More spin no doubt.

Alonso
10-18-2010, 07:35 PM
I can't say it enough guys!
This team? TFC? Will never,ever,ever get a running start with MLSE behind it.
MLSE is a corporation with a direct, fiduciary responsibilty to OTPP.
What they are selling does not matter.
Just as long as they keep selling lot's of it.
KD.


To true, with MLSE there is no hope. $$$ talks and unless people start walking they won't listen.

arbogast
10-18-2010, 07:52 PM
I just got back from the 6pm town hall. here are my thoughts:

1) they took a lot of heat, the ssh's were pissed and they ripped in to them re: MLS Cup add on. I got the impression from Pauly B that from now on they'll only offer us tix for games TFC are involved in, and that cup games are going to be add ons to base packages. They thought the MLS Cup was an event like the SuperBowl and that we would embrace it the same way Seattle fans did.

2) No one spilled the beans re: GM consultants

3) people also ripped in to them about per game price increases but Tom A would not guarantee a freeze if the team stinks next year too.

4) Jimmy looked disinterested at times

5) the wings were big but sucked

that is all

ArmenJBX
10-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Does it at least sound like some progress is being made or is this just PR moves at best?

kaos197O
10-18-2010, 08:08 PM
Does it at least sound like some progress is being made or is this just PR moves at best?
Based on what's been said, they seem non committal to making any further concessions. I guess they're prepared to see where the chips fall.

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:20 PM
Does it at least sound like some progress is being made or is this just PR moves at best?


oh i think there's progress. After 3 town halls they're now getting the message loud and clear. There were some corporate pr lines, but they were very honest and forthcoming for the most part. I think these sessions have been real eye openers for them.

ArmenJBX
10-18-2010, 08:21 PM
what does not making any further concessions mean? Ignorance of youth, etc. etc :D

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:22 PM
Based on what's been said, they seem non committal to making any further concessions. I guess they're prepared to see where the chips fall.

yeah they did say it's too late to make MLS Cup optional and they would not commit to price freezes if the team sux balls again, but I don't think they'll be adding on meaningless bullshit to the seasons packages anymore

Oldtimer
10-18-2010, 08:25 PM
So they may have planned them as a PR move, but they are getting truly useful information... ML$E can be partially deaf, but I doubt they are totally stupid. If people are angry enough, ML$E will act, at least in a limited way.

H Bomb
10-18-2010, 08:31 PM
Went to the meeting at six. Found it frustrating mostly. Tom said that ticket increases were decided when we were playing well but then refused to say they wouldnt go up next year regardless of results. Im not sure they know whats going on at all. Tom spent the meeting trying to tell me im only angry because we're losing. Good to have the meetings though. The questions were good mostly, and people didnt pull punches.

kaos197O
10-18-2010, 08:32 PM
yeah they did say it's too late to make MLS Cup optional and they would not commit to price freezes if the team sux balls again, but I don't think they'll be adding on meaningless bullshit to the seasons packages anymore
That is progress, but they basically agreed to that in their APOLOGY to the fans. It looks as if they aren't going to give much else, so i wonder now if people will respond by following through with their threats and not renewing. Friday will be an interesting day. Mainly because I'll be in Mexico :D , but also to see just how all this unfolds.

Red Rat
10-18-2010, 08:35 PM
Went to the meeting at six. Found it frustrating mostly. Tom said that ticket increases were decided when we were playing well but then refused to say they wouldnt go up next year regardless of results. Im not sure they know whats going on at all. Tom spent the meeting trying to tell me im only angry because we're losing. Good to have the meetings though. The questions were good mostly, and people didnt pull punches.

There is no hope in ML$Eville. Prices are going up and team effort is going down. They just wasted your time.

ag futbol
10-18-2010, 08:36 PM
I don't think I've ever said they are doing a good job.

Clearly they've done a poor job. They're openly admitting they screwed up on the season ticket package and price.

I'm just trying to explain some of the basic concepts of service pricing strategy to those who aren't familiar.

If you've sat in the board room for pricing meetings then you know exactly how big company executives screw up pricing decisions... they basterdize the quantitative models to reinforce their biased personal opinions instead of using the objective facts.

I see it all the time, classic ivory tower stuff, taking customers for granted, overestimating demand, underestimating price sensitivity.... ussually this means the finance guys won the fight in the price meeting.
Were on the same page here.

Supply and demand can theoretically be used to describe anything. But in practice it gets more difficult because there are large undiscovered parts of the equation or limited availability of data that hurt the statistical significance of pricing models.

My experience has been the opposite of yours, the small tweaks by the management team did pay dividends. But, the guys making the changes really did have their thumb under what mattered in the market and didn't discount the statistical models completely.

But I’ve heard more than a few horror stories of egos run wild without much statistical or qualitative evidence to back up decisions.

Beach_Red
10-18-2010, 08:38 PM
So they may have planned them as a PR move, but they are getting truly useful information... ML$E can be partially deaf, but I doubt they are totally stupid. If people are angry enough, ML$E will act, at least in a limited way.

It's too early to say that. Toronto won't be in line for the MLS Cup for another twenty years, so it's easy to say they won't add it to ticket packages. It's like the one ESPN game where they censored banners and then said they'd made a mistake and wouldn't do it again - pretty meaningless gesture when it's not likely to come up again.

If it really is too late to remove the MLS Cup they could easily add a couple of the CCL games and just not charge for them - surely the MLS Cup is worth two games?

cmonyoureds
10-18-2010, 08:43 PM
hmm "sorry guys, sorry guys, sorry guys, sorry guys"
what's missing?
"hey guys, we're ditching the MLS cup, and we're freezing/doing away with the price per game increase"

do you REALLY thnk they've learned? and if so, do you really TRUST them to change next year?

cmonyoureds
10-18-2010, 08:46 PM
yeah they did say it's too late to make MLS Cup optional and they would not commit to price freezes if the team sux balls again, but I don't think they'll be adding on meaningless bullshit to the seasons packages anymore


too late? i call balderdash.

"if you don't want the MLS cup, let us know, we'll credit your account and sell the ticket ourselves closer to game day"

they seem to figure out how to take money from my account manager pretty quick, crediting it can't be much different.

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:48 PM
So they may have planned them as a PR move, but they are getting truly useful information... ML$E can be partially deaf, but I doubt they are totally stupid. If people are angry enough, ML$E will act, at least in a limited way.

that's exactly the impression I walked away with.

kaos197O
10-18-2010, 08:49 PM
too late? i call balderdash.

"if you don't want the MLS cup, let us know, we'll credit your account and sell the ticket ourselves closer to game day"

they seem to figure out how to take money from my account manager pretty quick, crediting it can't be much different.
Up to 6 weeks according to the latest email that's been sent out!

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:50 PM
too late? i call balderdash.

"if you don't want the MLS cup, let us know, we'll credit your account and sell the ticket ourselves closer to game day"

they seem to figure out how to take money from my account manager pretty quick, crediting it can't be much different.


i totally agree it's not too late at all, but they've made the decision to bend us over wether we want it or not. the only positive i got out of tonite is that they wont try this cup stunt again, at least for a very long time.

Red Rat
10-18-2010, 08:52 PM
i totally agree it's not too late at all, but they've made the decision to bend us over wether we want it or not. the only positive i got out of tonite is that they wont try this cup stunt again, at least for a very long time.

that is because MLS will never give it to them.

Azerban
10-18-2010, 08:55 PM
the only positive i got out of tonite is that they wont try this cup stunt again, at least for a very long time.

hah you're fucking kidding

they're banking on not having the opportunity to do it for a long time

Azerban
10-18-2010, 08:56 PM
i guess my point is if you expected anything but a stream of hot air directly from MLSE FO's asshole into your mouth, you scrub tier, sorry about your bad predictions

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:57 PM
i guess my point is if you expected anything but a stream of hot air directly from MLSE FO's asshole into your mouth, you scrub tier, sorry about your bad predictions

umm I didn't at all actually, but it wasn't as bad as your post would imply. were u there at 6?

arbogast
10-18-2010, 08:59 PM
that is because MLS will never give it to them.

yeah hosting this game could really be an embarassing shit show for MLSE.

they showed a severe lack of respect by forcing it on us and now they'll pay the piper.

Azerban
10-18-2010, 09:01 PM
umm I didn't at all actually, but it wasn't as bad as your post would imply. were u there at 6?

wasn't directed at you? your name wasn't in the post? sorry bout your confusion

(and no, not going to drive almost 2 hours and skip a fourth year class for some shit wings and boring platitudes)

Azerban
10-18-2010, 09:04 PM
also i'm pretty sure it was exactly as bad as i described, no concessions were made, no changes, just "uh-huh, we'll get it right next time, whoops! ps: get ready for another increase"

Red Rat
10-18-2010, 09:05 PM
wasn't directed at you? your name wasn't in the post? sorry bout your confusion

(and no, not going to drive almost 2 hours and skip a fourth year class for some shit wings and boring platitudes)

hey man, these wings came from Real Sports Crap and Grill

rr

arbogast
10-18-2010, 09:05 PM
wasn't directed at you? your name wasn't in the post? sorry bout your confusion

(and no, not going to drive almost 2 hours and skip a fourth year class for some shit wings and boring platitudes)

it wasnt all boring platitudes, sorry to burst your bubble

arbogast
10-18-2010, 09:08 PM
also i'm pretty sure it was exactly as bad as i described, no concessions were made, no changes, just "uh-huh, we'll get it right next time, whoops! ps: get ready for another increase"

it wasnt. you weren't there, you wouldn know. the concessions will be no more add on games going forward. no paying for playoff and cup games or friendlies in the package. it sounds like there will be base packages of just league games and options to opt in to cup games and friendlies if you so choose. that's a pretty significant concession.