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Nuvinho
10-13-2010, 11:45 AM
I just checked my bill:

supporters section (yellow) - $790/pair
dark greys - $2096/pair

rocker
10-13-2010, 11:47 AM
I just checked my bill:

supporters section (yellow) - $790/pair
dark greys - $2096/pair

dark greys were 2296/pair.. so that's the 2 games removed ($50/seat).

Ageroo
10-13-2010, 11:49 AM
interesting......

Parkdale
10-13-2010, 11:49 AM
my bill just dropped from aprox $4000 (2 in the south end and 2 in the reds) to aprox $3650

it's something.

prizby
10-13-2010, 11:49 AM
how many games did they deduct?

rocker
10-13-2010, 11:50 AM
2 games

menefreghista
10-13-2010, 11:51 AM
how many games did they deduct?

It looks like the 2 CCL games only.

No reduction in the cost per game.

Dave67
10-13-2010, 11:51 AM
my bill just dropped from aprox $4000 (2 in the south end and 2 in the reds) to aprox $3650

it's something.

It's nothing Parkdale. It's absolfuckinglutely nothing. They are not pre charging you for 2 games they never should have pre charged you for in the first place. It's nothing.

Belfast_Boy
10-13-2010, 11:52 AM
so you're still paying the same per game?

http://www.mes.mariposa.k12.ca.us/Band/band%20aid.gif

Darlofletch
10-13-2010, 11:53 AM
underwhelming. pay if we qualify, rather than pay then refund if we don't qualify. wow, i certainly feel more appreciated.

when does the official announcemnt get made?

Velvet Elvis
10-13-2010, 11:53 AM
Has the renewal deadline changed?

Parkdale
10-13-2010, 11:53 AM
It's nothing Parkdale. It's absolfuckinglutely nothing. They are not pre charging you for 2 games they never should have pre charged you for in the first place. It's nothing.

oh I know that, it's just a bit less of a sting.

I HATE the idea of my money sitting 'in trust' with MLSE. They have enough money already, let me sit on my own cash.

FootieChick
10-13-2010, 11:54 AM
This just means we're not obliged to attend the CCL games if we don't want to. They won't be part of our package.

If they wanted to make a difference, they would give us the 2 tickets as well OR (even better), take out all the unecessary games we do not feel the need to attend (CCL) as well as a discount on our actual ticket prices - same as last year would be OK with me sans the CCL cost as well.

Carts
10-13-2010, 11:54 AM
My tickets have vanished... Ummm yikes...

mdc 77
10-13-2010, 11:56 AM
Pretty weak. Easy solution was to keep the same games but give any non- league games in the package for "free".

trane
10-13-2010, 11:56 AM
My thing is that I FEEL I need to attend CCL, but feel that I cannot attend MLS CUP. It goes against every instict as a supporter to attend the MLS CUP if tfc is not in it. This is realy my sticking point, I just cannot bring myself to pay for it.

Nuvinho
10-13-2010, 11:57 AM
Has the renewal deadline changed?

says Oct 22nd now.

Chevy
10-13-2010, 11:58 AM
It's nothing Parkdale. It's absolfuckinglutely nothing. They are not pre charging you for 2 games they never should have pre charged you for in the first place. It's nothing.


Basically the only thing you're saving the cost of capital by not paying for those extra two games up front.

Assuming a rate of 10% and a period of six months, for every dollar your season ticket price decreases, you benefit by a nickel. So for a $100 decline in your SSH price you 'get' $5.

Kooper
10-13-2010, 12:04 PM
What bugs me is this is being seen by MLSE brass as a generous gesture. When they are really just postponning getting our money until July when/if they qualify. It doesn't got to the disrespect of ticket increase and the MLS cup. I am still not happy.

DangerRed
10-13-2010, 12:04 PM
oh I know that, it's just a bit less of a sting.

I HATE the idea of my money sitting 'in trust' with MLSE. They have enough money already, let me sit on my own cash.

It's not just that it sits in trust. Since the money is paid in, MLSE can probably recognize it as revenue and invest it however they want. So, ostensibly, they could park your season ticket money in a relatively safe corporate bond that yields 4 percent and they're making even more money off you.

The very act of buying season tickets is equivalent to giving MLSE an interest-free loan that gets partly paid down each time there is a home game.

Yes, of course, there are operating costs and all, but believe you me there is a very good reason they want as much of your money up front as possible.

H Bomb
10-13-2010, 12:04 PM
You know whats really pissing me off. They are claiming that the MLS cup is being forced on them by MLS because, as they are saying, they need butts in the seats. Well MLS isnt forcing them to capitalize on this, so very easy solution. comp the seats for any STH. Give them to us...those people who were going to pay for them will take it as a legit sign of good will and the money lost will come back to you through good business practises. And those who dont want it will think a lot more seriously about going to a free "premier" game. SImplest of solutions....but it doesnt end in $ so i bet they havent even thought of it.

Suds
10-13-2010, 12:05 PM
My tickets have vanished... Ummm yikes...

they have finally had enough of you

DangerRed
10-13-2010, 12:06 PM
says Oct 22nd now.

This was also hilarious. I read in another thread that apparently there was an invoice printing problem, which is why they're extending the renewals.

Yeah - there definitely was a problem with printing invoices. There were none to print because so few people renewed!

Badum-tish....

trane
10-13-2010, 12:07 PM
^ Yeah, if I got it for free I would not go. BUT, I would not be angry about it.

trane
10-13-2010, 12:08 PM
This was also hilarious. I read in another thread that apparently there was an invoice printing problem, which is why they're extending the renewals.

Yeah - there definitely was a problem with printing invoices. There were none to print because so few people renewed!

Badum-tish....

ahahahah.

torontocelt
10-13-2010, 12:09 PM
I just checked my bill:

supporters section (yellow) - $790/pair
dark greys - $2096/pair

The invoices have changed several times now, is there a big button someone has to push to stop the numbers changing?

Chevy
10-13-2010, 12:11 PM
It's not just that it sits in trust. Since the money is paid in, MLSE can probably recognize it as revenue and invest it however they want. So, ostensibly, they could park your season ticket money in a relatively safe corporate bond that yields 4 percent and they're making even more money off you.

The very act of buying season tickets is equivalent to giving MLSE an interest-free loan that gets partly paid down each time there is a home game.

Yes, of course, there are operating costs and all, but believe you me there is a very good reason they want as much of your money up front as possible.

Exactly. Essentially they are letting you "invest" your own cash rather than giving it to them prematurely. Using your 4% bond scenario you would benefit by two bucks on every $100 your STH prices decline. Not a big carrot IMO. Basically what return on investment you could get at 4% over six months.

Suds
10-13-2010, 12:11 PM
so you're still paying the same per game?

http://www.mes.mariposa.k12.ca.us/Band/band%20aid.gif

^^
man ... that has banner written all over it!

DangerRed
10-13-2010, 12:17 PM
Exactly. Essentially they are letting you "invest" your own cash rather than giving it to them prematurely. Using your 4% bond scenario you would benefit by two bucks on every $100 your STH prices decline. Not a big carrot IMO. Basically what return on investment you could get at 4% over six months.

A 4% 6-month return on a $2000 season ticket purchase (no compound) in our theoretical scenario is $40. Multiply that by 75% (renewal rate) of the 15,000 (let's say) season ticket holders, and you get: $40 X 11,250 = $450,000.

And that's just if they parked EVERYTHING in a bond. I'm fairly confident in saying MLSE can get more than 4% out of that money.

That's before all the merch, concessions, ad and sponsorship revenue and everything else.

This is a good business.

ManUtd4ever
10-13-2010, 12:19 PM
The transparency of this supposed "gesture" is nothing short of an insult to our intelligence. An acknowledgement of negative marketing on behalf of MLSE is simply not sufficient. A moderate discount per game for all existing STH would have been a step in the right direction...

Kooper
10-13-2010, 12:27 PM
The transparency of this supposed "gesture" is nothing short of an insult to our intelligence. An acknowledgement of negative marketing on behalf of MLSE is simply not sufficient. A moderate discount per game for all existing STH would have been a step in the right direction...

It has been said a couple of times that MLSE’s goal is to increase revenue every year. As someone who works in business I understand that. But what they don’t understand is that the two years with 100% sell out games and year three with Real are not typical for an MLS franchise. They can try to make a bit more money per ticket but wouldn’t it be better to keep the season ticket holders happy, fill the seats every game and make 10$ per beer, 2$ per pizza slice. They seem to want to make 2$/ticket and risk losing the concession money, the atmosphere and their fans. Way to go looking out for the short term.

Agreed this latest change is an insult to us. I am more angry now than ever.

Mikey
10-13-2010, 12:34 PM
My tickets will be $1750 cheaper next year....
I'm not buying any.

Now thats a discount!

Cashcleaner
10-13-2010, 12:34 PM
oh I know that, it's just a bit less of a sting.

I HATE the idea of my money sitting 'in trust' with MLSE. They have enough money already, let me sit on my own cash.

And why wouldn't you? I remember all the hassle I had to go through when I sold back two tickets during the 2008 season. At first I was told that the cost would be deducted from my 2009 tickets, but when I asked about the possibility of not renewing or changing seats, my rep at the time didn't really know what to say. Eventually, they ended up putting the money back on the credit card used to buy tickets. Unfortunately, it was a friend's card and I didn't even know the transaction was made until later that year.

So yeah, I too trust my own pocketbook more than MLSE.

Section 110
10-13-2010, 01:50 PM
The counter has been reset on the website, too, so now we have 11 odd days to renew. Similar to others, my season tickets are gone from Account Manager - maybe I shouldn't have complained so vehemently.

What's amazing is that they just can't get this right: By removing the CCL tickets, they think this is giving us a break, that this is acknowledging our grievances. What they still cannot get through their remarkably thick heads is that the insult doesn't lie there. It lies in the MLS Cup tickets and the price increase per ticket.

Nothing else matters.

trane
10-13-2010, 01:53 PM
^ Agreed.

Workie
10-13-2010, 01:54 PM
My tickets will be $1750 cheaper next year....
I'm not buying any.

Now thats a discount!

Man that back row is getting empty........

Roogsy
10-13-2010, 01:59 PM
The counter has been reset on the website, too, so now we have 11 odd days to renew. Similar to others, my season tickets are gone from Account Manager - maybe I shouldn't have complained so vehemently.

What's amazing is that they just can't get this right: By removing the CCL tickets, they think this is giving us a break, that this is acknowledging our grievances. What they still cannot get through their remarkably thick heads is that the insult doesn't lie there. It lies in the MLS Cup tickets and the price increase per ticket.

Nothing else matters.


QFFT...

So far, all of this is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

ExiledRed
10-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I prefer "wiping flecks of foam from the rabid dogs mouth."

nascarguy
10-13-2010, 02:24 PM
this is a joke "new price " My fucking ass hey MLSE see you in 2 years when you come crying back to me!!

H Bomb
10-13-2010, 02:27 PM
where's the announcement. Seems strange to me

Dave67
10-13-2010, 02:41 PM
^ maybe it's being 'tweaked'? but I doubt it, the new invoice is up in account manager.

DichioTFC
10-13-2010, 02:45 PM
I really find it hard to be appeased by taking away something that we'll most likely be repurchasing next time around.

Across the board price freeze is an absolute minimum, is it not?

Nuvinho
10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
Dear Toronto FC Fans,

We are sorry.

For the way the season has played out and for not bringing the excitement of Major League Soccer (MLS) playoffs to BMO Field. We fell short of our goals and more importantly, your expectations. But most of all, we are sorry for not listening better.

Over the past four seasons you have shown the soccer world that Toronto FC has, bar-none, the best fans in MLS. Your passion and dedication has been unwavering and for that you deserve more than we have delivered this season.

Recently we have received a lot of feedback from our fans, season seat holders and supporters. One of the most prevalent issues you have brought to our attention is the 2011 season seat package. We screwed up. In hindsight, the increased number of games in 2011 season seat package you received in September was a mistake. We have listened to your feedback and eliminated two (CONCACAF Champions League) games which will reduce your ticket package price accordingly, and because of this change we have extended the deadline until October 22. We need to build a team that earns the right to sell you these extra games.

If you have already renewed season seats:

• If you are currently on the payment plan, your November 15 payment will be adjusted to accommodate the decrease in cost.
• If you have paid in full, you will be issued a refund for the amount of the 2 matches (expect this within six weeks).
• For those of you who would like to keep the original package (including the 2 CONCACAF Champions League matches), please let us know at 416-360-GOAL by the new renewal deadline of October 22.
• Please note that your Online Account Manager will not reflect the changes. If you require an updated account statement, please give us a call.

These first four years have been a real learning process. In our conversations you have affirmed our belief in and commitment to an ongoing, two-way dialogue. As such, we will be hosting a series of Town Hall meetings with fans over the next few weeks.

Thursday, October 14
7:30 - 8:30 p.m.

Monday, October 18
6:00 - 7:00 p.m.

Thursday, October 21
6:00 - 7:00 p.m.
7:30 - 8:30 p.m.

All Town Hall meetings will take place in the Rogers Club at BMO Field. If you'd like to attend, please RSVP to townhall@torontofc.ca (townhall@torontofc.ca) with the date and time of the meeting as the subject line. Also, be sure to indicate if you would like to bring a guest. We will fill the limited space on a first come first served basis and all accepted RSVP's will be notified by email.

We are working hard to assemble a football management team that is second to none in MLS. We need leadership that will establish the vision for this team, create a winning culture, and provide stability. The manager, whoever that ultimately might be, will be charged with building a great team around him including hiring the head coach.

Next month we have the honour of hosting the MLS Cup. Unfortunately the Reds will not be participating, but this is still a wonderful opportunity to showcase our world-class city and our tremendous soccer culture and supporters. We're looking forward to showing the rest of MLS and the soccer world how great our fans are this November.

This is the start of a new era for Toronto FC. We are committed to a winning future and appreciate your passion and support.

Sincerely,

Toronto FC
// All For One

nobodybeatsthewiz
10-13-2010, 02:55 PM
hmmmm, town halls before the renewal date

H Bomb
10-13-2010, 02:57 PM
Damnit, every time i read one of their emails it makes me so sad/mad. Either they're lying or they actually dont get it, at all. Already sent my RSVP for monday at 6. When's the RPB one taking place? If its before this hit me up with anything you dont think they covered well enough.

nobodybeatsthewiz
10-13-2010, 02:58 PM
Damnit, every time i read one of their emails it makes me so sad/mad. Either they're lying or they actually dont get it, at all. Already sent my RSVP for monday at 6. When's the RPB one taking place? If its before this hit me up with anything you dont think they covered well enough.

hahaha, matt, whenever i read them now - as with their most recent one ten minutes ago - i just firstly chuckle that they keep sending them, then retreat into an abyss of cynicism.

spark
10-13-2010, 03:11 PM
We need to build a team that earns the right to sell you these extra games.

So by this logic shouldn't we be expecting the MLS Cup to be removed as well?

jb831
10-13-2010, 03:16 PM
So by this logic shouldn't we be expecting the MLS Cup to be removed as well?

YES.

"Unfortunately the Reds will not be participating, but this is still a wonderful opportunity to showcase our world-class city and our tremendous soccer culture and supporters."

Who do they think we're going to cheer for?

:facepalm:

Parkdale
10-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Who do they think we're going to cheer for?


you can cheer for me. :D

ArmenJBX
10-13-2010, 03:22 PM
What would an appropriate price range be?

Certainly they're not going to make it free. What level will the prices be acceptable?

jb831
10-13-2010, 03:25 PM
you can cheer for me. :D

Haha. As long as you're not in a France kit.

algieb
10-13-2010, 08:30 PM
Dear Toronto FC Fans,

We are sorry.

For the way the season has played out and for not bringing the excitement of Major League Soccer (MLS) playoffs to BMO Field. We fell short of our goals and more importantly, your expectations. But most of all, we are sorry for not listening better.

Over the past four seasons you have shown the soccer world that Toronto FC has, bar-none, the best fans in MLS. Your passion and dedication has been unwavering and for that you deserve more than we have delivered this season.

Recently we have received a lot of feedback from our fans, season seat holders and supporters. One of the most prevalent issues you have brought to our attention is the 2011 season seat package. We screwed up. In hindsight, the increased number of games in 2011 season seat package you received in September was a mistake. We have listened to your feedback and eliminated two (CONCACAF Champions League) games which will reduce your ticket package price accordingly, and because of this change we have extended the deadline until October 22. We need to build a team that earns the right to sell you these extra games.

If you have already renewed season seats:

• If you are currently on the payment plan, your November 15 payment will be adjusted to accommodate the decrease in cost.
• If you have paid in full, you will be issued a refund for the amount of the 2 matches (expect this within six weeks).
• For those of you who would like to keep the original package (including the 2 CONCACAF Champions League matches), please let us know at 416-360-GOAL by the new renewal deadline of October 22.
• Please note that your Online Account Manager will not reflect the changes. If you require an updated account statement, please give us a call.

These first four years have been a real learning process. In our conversations you have affirmed our belief in and commitment to an ongoing, two-way dialogue. As such, we will be hosting a series of Town Hall meetings with fans over the next few weeks.

Thursday, October 14
7:30 - 8:30 p.m.

Monday, October 18
6:00 - 7:00 p.m.

Thursday, October 21
6:00 - 7:00 p.m.
7:30 - 8:30 p.m.

All Town Hall meetings will take place in the Rogers Club at BMO Field. If you'd like to attend, please RSVP to townhall@torontofc.ca (townhall@torontofc.ca) with the date and time of the meeting as the subject line. Also, be sure to indicate if you would like to bring a guest. We will fill the limited space on a first come first served basis and all accepted RSVP's will be notified by email.

We are working hard to assemble a football management team that is second to none in MLS. We need leadership that will establish the vision for this team, create a winning culture, and provide stability. The manager, whoever that ultimately might be, will be charged with building a great team around him including hiring the head coach.

Next month we have the honour of hosting the MLS Cup. Unfortunately the Reds will not be participating, but this is still a wonderful opportunity to showcase our world-class city and our tremendous soccer culture and supporters. We're looking forward to showing the rest of MLS and the soccer world how great our fans are this November.

This is the start of a new era for Toronto FC. We are committed to a winning future and appreciate your passion and support.

Sincerely,

Toronto FC
// All For One
do not attend mls final that will kick them right in the bollocks nothing like a cup final that you have no part in to get youre blood racing ,empty stadium no atmosphere no fans

canadian_bhoy
10-13-2010, 09:12 PM
So...They got rid of the two CCL games.
Basically people didn't like the price increase so they just dumped the two least popular games off the ticket pack.

Of course, if we want to go to the game, we'll end up having to buy those tickets anyway. So if you really want to experience TFC and be there for every home game...they've done nothing.

Great. Thanks for "listening".

Drop individual ticket prices morons!

THA BUTCHA
10-13-2010, 09:33 PM
Just RSVPd

For tomorrow I look forward to tearing them a new asshole. In a witty passive-aggressive way of course

Pookie
10-13-2010, 09:54 PM
So...They got rid of the two CCL games.
Basically people didn't like the price increase so they just dumped the two least popular games off the ticket pack.

Of course, if we want to go to the game, we'll end up having to buy those tickets anyway. So if you really want to experience TFC and be there for every home game...they've done nothing.

Great. Thanks for "listening".

Drop individual ticket prices morons!

Smoke and mirrors.

Interesting that they feel the "need to earn the right to sell us tickets". Where was this feeling when they opted to limit the number of STs and Partial Packs and force sell us Marlies' tickets?

I'd also love an explanation as to how they justified their decision to make the North Stand available to Red List members to reward them for their loyalty and then opted to create a price that is THE MOST EXPENSIVE in the league for that vantage point (in a non-supporter section).

Cashcleaner
10-14-2010, 07:29 AM
So...They got rid of the two CCL games.
Basically people didn't like the price increase so they just dumped the two least popular games off the ticket pack.

Of course, if we want to go to the game, we'll end up having to buy those tickets anyway. So if you really want to experience TFC and be there for every home game...they've done nothing.

Great. Thanks for "listening".

Drop individual ticket prices morons!

And we're apparently supposed to be okay with that.

Not me.

This 'apology' has only made things worse in my eyes. Like you pointed out, they haven't really made any concession. We're supposed to be happy that they drooped two games from the package that were never supposed to be included in the first place?! Please.

This club needs a wake up call from the fans and supporters. We should be demanding a price freeze for the 2011 season in the very least.

scooter
10-14-2010, 07:43 AM
You know whats really pissing me off. They are claiming that the MLS cup is being forced on them by MLS because, as they are saying, they need butts in the seats. Well MLS isnt forcing them to capitalize on this, so very easy solution. comp the seats for any STH. Give them to us...those people who were going to pay for them will take it as a legit sign of good will and the money lost will come back to you through good business practises. And those who dont want it will think a lot more seriously about going to a free "premier" game. SImplest of solutions....but it doesnt end in $ so i bet they havent even thought of it.

thats exactly what i was thinking spot on mate
you want the stadium full for the cup game not only comp the seats give everybody free beer and grub too
that would be just reward for the supporters :flare::drinking::hump:

Wagner
10-14-2010, 07:47 AM
MLSE, want the problem to go away.
it can, in a few minutes.
All you have to do is give us tix to MLS Cup.
16,000 X $60....to make all your problems go away.

Instead of fans viewing MLS Cup Tix as a piece of garbage that was tied in to renewal.

Reward the Fans for 4 years of blind loyalty. All of a sudden, MLS Cup tix become a badge to show that you've been there since the launch, and you're valued by the club. All of a sudden a lot more people will be at the game. SSH will be happy, the bad press will immediately switch to good press.

It's just that easy.

Suds
10-14-2010, 07:51 AM
^^
It's astounding how clear the solution is and stares MLSE right in their face yet they can't see it.

Cashcleaner
10-14-2010, 08:02 AM
MLSE, want the problem to go away.
it can, in a few minutes.
All you have to do is give us tix to MLS Cup.
16,000 X $60....to make all your problems go away.

Instead of fans viewing MLS Cup Tix as a piece of garbage that was tied in to renewal.

Reward the Fans for 4 years of blind loyalty. All of a sudden, MLS Cup tix become a badge to show that you've been there since the launch, and you're valued by the club. All of a sudden a lot more people will be at the game. SSH will be happy, the bad press will immediately switch to good press.

It's just that easy.

I see nothing at all unreasonable with this.

koryo
10-14-2010, 08:03 AM
A pathetic and patronizing attempt at appeasement. My decision stands: MLSE will never see another penny out of me.

Beach_Red
10-14-2010, 08:06 AM
Smoke and mirrors.

Interesting that they feel the "need to earn the right to sell us tickets". Where was this feeling when they opted to limit the number of STs and Partial Packs and force sell us Marlies' tickets?

I'd also love an explanation as to how they justified their decision to make the North Stand available to Red List members to reward them for their loyalty and then opted to create a price that is THE MOST EXPENSIVE in the league for that vantage point (in a non-supporter section).

Oh, they gave an explanation - supply and demand. When demand was high they took advantage of it, never stopping to think that they hadn't created the demand and that it might subside if the product didn't get better.

They were "awarded" the MLS Cup game last March and it looks like they felt they'd be able to fill the stadium without doing any marketing at all. Have you seen any ads?

So now demand for season tickets is lower and they're finally having to do something to sell them and this is the best they can do.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 08:32 AM
Oh, they gave an explanation - supply and demand. When demand was high they took advantage of it, never stopping to think that they hadn't created the demand and that it might subside if the product didn't get better.



I agree with you on the lack of advertising but wanted to highlight something else in your post.

Demand subsiding if the product didn't get better.

Do you think that the product getting better would have resulted in increased demand?

Our "product" relative to MLS competition was strong through the first half of the season. Our "product" relative to Nutralite challengers was very strong. Our "product" relative to our CCL group was particularly strong through the first few games of the group stage when you consider the Cruz Azul home game.

Yet, on average, BMO was 1,200 seats below capacity for every MLS home game. BMO was 3,000-4,000 seats below capacity for CCL games (excluding the 11,000 seats empty for the most recent CCL game). People generally couldn't resell their tickets at cost and some couldn't even give them away. This was at a time when our "product" was deemed good.

I wonder if we aren't already over the "marginal ultility" price ceiling in that the value we get is less than the cost. In my mind, this has very little to do with winning.

Beach_Red
10-14-2010, 08:42 AM
^ Yes, I think demand would have increased with a better product, but by better I mean a solid playoff-bound team. A team even the casual observer could see as successful.

Toronto is still very much a trend-driven city. If the Blue Jays get into a pennant race next year and it looks like they have a good shot of making the post-season, the SkyDome will be packed. Sales for Argos playoff tickets will be strong, far stronger than for regular season games.

Soccer is still new for many people (not just Anselmi is have trouble with the idea that next year's schedule doesn't have a set number of games) so the Cruz Azul game wasn't enough to build any momentum for a team many people only casually follow.

But they will follow it much more if it's winning, if it's in the playoffs and advances far into the CCL. If TFC ever look like they have a shot at the CCL and are playing games in February it will be just like Montreal (or better) and they'll need to find a 50,000 seat venue.

GBV
10-14-2010, 09:04 AM
I agree with you on the lack of advertising but wanted to highlight something else in your post.

Demand subsiding if the product didn't get better.

Do you think that the product getting better would have resulted in increased demand?

Our "product" relative to MLS competition was strong through the first half of the season. Our "product" relative to Nutralite challengers was very strong. Our "product" relative to our CCL group was particularly strong through the first few games of the group stage when you consider the Cruz Azul home game.

Yet, on average, BMO was 1,200 seats below capacity for every MLS home game. BMO was 3,000-4,000 seats below capacity for CCL games (excluding the 11,000 seats empty for the most recent CCL game). People generally couldn't resell their tickets at cost and some couldn't even give them away. This was at a time when our "product" was deemed good.

I wonder if we aren't already over the "marginal ultility" price ceiling in that the value we get is less than the cost. In my mind, this has very little to do with winning.

"Good" doesn't necessarily mean "exciting" though.
It'd be nice to have both.
We were kinda, sorta getting results early in the season but, goodness, the games were a snooze.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 09:12 AM
^ I don't think demand would increase with a better product. Perhaps for a single game but a sustainable market willing to pay $60-70 for the cheapest seat in the house game in and game out?

The trendy fans are the same ones that packed BMO to see Real Madrid but look down on the MLS. In their mind, I'd wager that even an MLS Championship team is like the Marlies winning the Calder Cup.

We have the highest prices in the MLS majority of the sections. In areas where LA and Seattle have us beat by a few bucks, consider:

- they offer parking passes
- LA includes 5 bonus games at no cost
- Seattle offers all inclusive stadium snacks and non-alcoholic beverages to STHs in low price points (our Light Greys)
- LA offers discounts on additional tickets for friends and family
- Seattle offered up Chelsea and MLS Cup tickets included in the package at a fraction of the cost

What value do we get?

I'd say we are better to focus on this question than trying to draw a correlation between winning and ticket prices. Honestly, even with a Championship MLS team, I wouldn't pay another $20/game to see it. The stadium is still in a shitty location for those of us north of the 416 and... <-- insert laundry list of complaints -->

Toronto Ruffrider
10-14-2010, 09:18 AM
I wonder if we aren't already over the "marginal ultility" price ceiling in that the value we get is less than the cost. In my mind, this has very little to do with winning.

As with any new team, or an existing team moving into a new stadium, the novelty factor certainly explains the demand for TFC tickets in the early years of the club's existence. Without success on the pitch, it was inevitable that demand would wane once the novelty wore off. Since TFC is no longer new, there isn't much to distinguish it from any other underachieving sports team in this city with stagnant attendance.

While it would have been difficult under any circumstances for MLSE to prolong the novelty effect of TFC, the demand for tickets would have remained sky high had the team been a winner after its first season. Similar to how the World Series-winning Blue Jays sold out the SkyDome up to five years after the stadium's opening, it would not have been difficult for MLSE to sell out a much smaller stadium for an MLS Cup-contending team. With very few exceptions, professional sports teams simply cannot retain their initial buzz without timely success.

These first four seasons were vital to the development of the Toronto FC fanbase. Rather than work with the expansion team's novelty, MLSE took ticket sales for granted, charging extortionist prices and allowing the quality of football to remain substandard. Not surprisingly, a good chunk of TFC's fanbase is either angry or apathetic. It is the latter people that MLSE should worry about, as I suspect that a lot of fans have given up on the product and are not coming back.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 09:30 AM
^ you raise some valid points but consider that MLSE's original business plan included a projected attendance of 14,000. Demand, as measured by 20,000 paid attendees is still relatively high vs their financial models.

While Championship teams have bandwagons, the difference between the MLS and the NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL is that the latter leagues are arguably the top leagues in the world at their particular sport. The MLS is a Developmental League.

If the Marlies won the Calder Cup, would the bandwagon be large?

I'm sure TFC would experience a "bump" in demand but nothing sustainable. Amongst Football fans there is a snob culture that will never support the MLS.

Where I agree with you is that MLSE should focus on these 20,000 committed fans and do everything under their power to keep them fans. This is a league with a contained cost structure, our dollar is at parity with the US$, they enjoy TV coverage that other teams would kill for. In short, they could run a tidy little business with reasonable profits year in and year out. It might not look like a hockey stick on the trading profit graph but it would clearly be a money maker.

That should be their focus.

pdelgadinho
10-14-2010, 09:30 AM
MLSE, want the problem to go away.
it can, in a few minutes.
All you have to do is give us tix to MLS Cup.
16,000 X $60....to make all your problems go away.

Instead of fans viewing MLS Cup Tix as a piece of garbage that was tied in to renewal.

Reward the Fans for 4 years of blind loyalty. All of a sudden, MLS Cup tix become a badge to show that you've been there since the launch, and you're valued by the club. All of a sudden a lot more people will be at the game. SSH will be happy, the bad press will immediately switch to good press.

It's just that easy.


It will cost them a hell of a lot more than that. Clubs are $192, Reds are $152, Dark Grey are $120, and Light Blue and Medium Grey are $80!!

rocker
10-14-2010, 09:31 AM
even with a Championship MLS team, I wouldn't pay another $20/game to see it. The stadium is still in a shitty location for those of us north of the 416 and... <-- insert laundry list of complaints -->

$20/game? I would, no questions asked. The stadium is in a great location for those of us in Mississauga. And if the team was a championship MLS team, $20/game would be even better.

You wouldn't pay $20/game if TFC had the Galaxy's/Shite Bulls/RSL's quality???????

It's hard to find many high-level entertainment options in Toronto where $20 gets you in the door. Concerts, sports, major events... etc.

Pachuco
10-14-2010, 09:34 AM
MLSE, want the problem to go away.
it can, in a few minutes.
All you have to do is give us tix to MLS Cup.
16,000 X $60....to make all your problems go away.

Instead of fans viewing MLS Cup Tix as a piece of garbage that was tied in to renewal.

Reward the Fans for 4 years of blind loyalty. All of a sudden, MLS Cup tix become a badge to show that you've been there since the launch, and you're valued by the club. All of a sudden a lot more people will be at the game. SSH will be happy, the bad press will immediately switch to good press.

It's just that easy.

This is about the only gesture that would renew confidence in MLSE. Drop my season ticket prices by simply giving me the MLS Cup for FREE and MLSE, I'm sure all your problems with negativity would be solved for atleast this year.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 09:35 AM
^ I'm talking about a $20 increase in the price per game/ticket.

So, my current $40 x 2 ($80) outting with Pookie Jr becomes a $120/game ($60 x 2) proposition. Adding $720 to our family budget over a season.

rocker
10-14-2010, 09:58 AM
^ I'm talking about a $20 increase in the price per game/ticket.

So, my current $40 x 2 ($80) outting with Pookie Jr becomes a $120/game ($60 x 2) proposition. Adding $720 to our family budget over a season.

which section are you in?

Pookie
10-14-2010, 10:01 AM
^ it's hypothetical :)

The argument was that winning would result in higher demand. Since supply is fixed, the premise is that an increase in demand would result in higher prices.

I'm saying that winning doesn't necessarily result in higher demand and that pricing is more closely related to value than it is "winning." Value being defined as my overall "experience" in going to a game and being a season ticket holder.

TFC/Everton
10-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Boys, as a life long football fan, isn't this what we always dreamed of? meaningful football played in Toronto. Lets not give up on this team, MLSE is holding townhalls. At least they are trying. I dont remember the leafs holding townhalls over the last 7 dreadful years. We've made our point to them and they've responded. We have one of the best home records in the league because WE pack BMO field, lets not let that slip away. I still have faith that this club will be the champions of this league one day. It will be like '92 & '93 all over again.

Toronto till I die.

Roogsy
10-14-2010, 10:03 AM
I still have faith that this club will be the champions of this league one day.

Yeah...the question is much like the Leafs, if it ever does happen, will you already be priced out and not be able to actually BE at the games?

Section 117
10-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Just to argue the other side for a moment. Maybe MLSE undervalued the market in the first place $200 a seat in the supporter's section is absurdly low. I paid half of that as a friend but 6 tickets in the dark grey. So my inital investemnt per seat was $100.

Over the last three years MLSE realized they have undervalued the tickets and are correcting the prices accordingly. If you look at the supporters section $2 increase this year is neglible compared to the years before and now everyone has the panties in a knot? I just don't get it.

Someone explain where everyone was when the increased the tickets after year 1 or after year 2 or after year 3

Oldtimer
10-14-2010, 12:00 PM
Just to argue the other side for a moment. Maybe MLSE undervalued the market in the first place $200 a seat in the supporter's section is absurdly low. I paid half of that as a friend but 6 tickets in the dark grey. So my inital investemnt per seat was $100.

Over the last three years MLSE realized they have undervalued the tickets and are correcting the prices accordingly. If you look at the supporters section $2 increase this year is neglible compared to the years before and now everyone has the panties in a knot? I just don't get it.

Someone explain where everyone was when the increased the tickets after year 1 or after year 2 or after year 3

Let me put it this way. If it was just $2 over 4 years it wouldn't be an issue. What happened is that the proverbial straw ($2) broke the camel's back. It was the $2 on top of the forced cup ticket buys, past ticket price increases, the mismanagement of the club, and the forced CCL buys. It's the fact that they marketed the club based on us, with no appreciation for all of the hassles we have put up with security and a non-dedicated supporters-group controlled section. It's the fact that they raised our tickets more percentage-wise than the prawnies (which are mostly corporate-owned and can afford to pay). I could go on...

Pookie
10-14-2010, 12:18 PM
^ I'd add that this league is based on the concept of a single entity ownership and revenue sharing is a large part of why the league can stay afloat.

The pricing relative to the value we receive is not only an issue for TFC fans. It is an issue for the league.

It makes no sense to kill a franchise with greed at the expense of the health of the league. Further, ticket prices should not be set in a vaccuum based on the outcome of Anselmi's Monday Morning Marketing Update Meeting.

They should reflect the value of the services/experience offered at price points that have been established by other clubs in the league.

If they get out of whack, as they are now, they decrease the support and the league as a whole suffers.

Pachuco
10-14-2010, 12:20 PM
Just to argue the other side for a moment. Maybe MLSE undervalued the market in the first place $200 a seat in the supporter's section is absurdly low. I paid half of that as a friend but 6 tickets in the dark grey. So my inital investemnt per seat was $100.

Over the last three years MLSE realized they have undervalued the tickets and are correcting the prices accordingly. If you look at the supporters section $2 increase this year is neglible compared to the years before and now everyone has the panties in a knot? I just don't get it.

Someone explain where everyone was when the increased the tickets after year 1 or after year 2 or after year 3

The supporter's section is trully the worst example you could look at though. Yes, they undervalued the price of the supporter's section, I agree with that, but they've completely over-valued some of the other sections. Starting with the north end prices, don't even get me going there. And how about the dark greys where I sit?

Here is a funny thing. My colleague has season tickets for the Leafs. Purples (albeit the best purples you can get). Last year I was absolutely fucking shocked when I asked him what he pays and realized that price per game I'm pretty much on par with what he pays. That's absolutely absurd. I know that we are comparing purples at ACC to dark greys at BMO field, but Leafs and TFC should'nt even be spoken about in the same sentence when it comes to prices. They've managed to do this to me in 4 years? WTF?

Oldtimer
10-14-2010, 12:25 PM
If they get out of whack, as they are now, they decrease the support and the league as a whole suffers.

I'm sure that the league needs to approve the ticket prices. They get 1/3.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 12:26 PM
^ I'd agree with your post but disagree with the notion that they undervalued the supporter's section?

Our supporter's sections are the 3rd highest priced tickets in all of MLS.

Further, 127, 111, upper 110 and 119 pay 41% more than Supporters in NY (as an example).

Juanito
10-14-2010, 12:32 PM
It's a start guys. For a corporation to admit that they f---ed up is a big deal. It's still a decent deal to watch a game and for my money I think it's still good value.

They are listening.

I for one, will be there will bells on next year.

Pachuco
10-14-2010, 02:05 PM
^ I'd agree with your post but disagree with the notion that they undervalued the supporter's section?

Our supporter's sections are the 3rd highest priced tickets in all of MLS.

Further, 127, 111, upper 110 and 119 pay 41% more than Supporters in NY (as an example).

NY also couldn't get people into their stadium without spending Millions of dollars on marquez, Henry and Angel. This season they've been selling out, lately. Don't worry, they'll be adjusted pretty soon. This is NY we are talking about.

This is exactly why you can't compare two different markets with completely different supply and demand. Another thing, I don't know where supporters in NY sit but those sections you listed are not suppoter's sections at BMO field.

Also, I said they undervalued the supporter's sections, which is why they are adjusting serverely now (as Section 117) said. Meaning you should be comparing numbers from Year 1, not this year's numbers. Lastly, I don't think you can buy a season's pass to wild water kingdom for the price you paid to go watch TFC season 1 in the suppoter's section. That was one ridicolously cheap seat to buy at that point.

maninb
10-14-2010, 02:14 PM
It's a start guys. For a corporation to admit that they f---ed up is a big deal. It's still a decent deal to watch a game and for my money I think it's still good value.

They are listening.

I for one, will be there will bells on next year.

You'll be sitting amongst a whole lot of empty seats.....

TFC/Everton
10-14-2010, 02:33 PM
You'll be sitting amongst a whole lot of empty seats.....

I am not a season ticket holder, and I want to be one. If you are unhappy, I am ready and willing to take your seat.

Jeffro
10-14-2010, 02:37 PM
some people around here have really lost the plot. Implying with a straight face that they "owe" us free tickets to the mls cup final?? Get a grip. Personally I'm quite happy with the change to the package. Should MLS cup be an option? Definitely. Personally I would have picked up that option, and look forward to watching the championship game for the league my team is in. Some people seem so anti MLS that they wouldn't go if the ticket was free, but you have paid money for four years to see the worst team in the league?

Am I happy about a $2 increase? No I'm not, and I intend to keep pushing for it to be dropped.

For me the biggest issue was adding games to the package that may never happen. I didn't want my money sitting in MLSE's bank in hopes of possibly qualifying. It seems some people around here think it's a given that we'll be in CCL again next year, but it's not.

It may not be everything we want, but it is a start. Now we pressure them for the rest, make the MLS cup an option, and freeze ticket prices.

Detroit_TFC
10-14-2010, 02:46 PM
I have a suspicion that MLSE guaranteed MLS a full house at BMO. The only way to make that happen was to make everyone buy them as part of the ST package. The normal and logical approach to this - give ST first crack at their seats then open admission - would not have a been well-subscribed.

Pookie
10-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Another thing, I don't know where supporters in NY sit but those sections you listed are not suppoter's sections at BMO field.



The sections I listed aren't Supporters' sections but that's the point. MLSE calls them light grey and charge more. But the standing, banners, drums, etc are all allowed and the images of the fans in those sections are marketed as atmosphere. They are supporters sections just with a higher price point.

As it stands, this "Light Grey" section is priced 2nd highest in the league, behind Seattle.

Had they been classed as "Yellow" Supporters, our prices would be 3rd highest in the league.

MLSE also charges those who are near the corner (bottom of 110 as an example) more than any other team outside of LA for that vantage point.

Our North Stand is the highest priced non-supporter behind the goal section in the league.

If you are so opposed to the idea of setting prices by comparing value with other clubs, how would you set prices?

Wull
10-14-2010, 02:51 PM
some people around here have really lost the plot. Implying with a straight face that they "owe" us free tickets to the mls cup final?? Get a grip. Personally I'm quite happy with the change to the package. Should MLS cup be an option? Definitely. Personally I would have picked up that option, and look forward to watching the championship game for the league my team is in. Some people seem so anti MLS that they wouldn't go if the ticket was free, but you have paid money for four years to see the worst team in the league?

Am I happy about a $2 increase? No I'm not, and I intend to keep pushing for it to be dropped.

For me the biggest issue was adding games to the package that may never happen. I didn't want my money sitting in MLSE's bank in hopes of possibly qualifying. It seems some people around here think it's a given that we'll be in CCL again next year, but it's not.

It may not be everything we want, but it is a start. Now we pressure them for the rest, make the MLS cup an option, and freeze ticket prices.

I wouldn't go even if they were paying me to attend. I have no interest in going to any final not involving my team when it comes to football, especially in this league. I was more okay with paying for the CCL stuff because it will involve us

Wull
10-14-2010, 02:54 PM
I have a suspicion that MLSE guaranteed MLS a full house at BMO. The only way to make that happen was to make everyone buy them as part of the ST package. The normal and logical approach to this - give ST first crack at their seats then open admission - would not have a been well-subscribed.


That's not our issue, that's up to ml$e and MLS to market the shit out of the game. As it is my seat will be empty unless I get offered a silly amount for it, hopefully leaving them suitably embarrassed when thousands of others do the same

Section 117
10-14-2010, 02:59 PM
The advantage of going to MLS final is you will actually get to see a decent match for a change.

Yes, there are one offs like the Cruz Azul game but overall watching TFC = watching paint dry

rocker
10-14-2010, 03:15 PM
The advantage of going to MLS final is you will actually get to see a decent match for a change.

Yes, there are one offs like the Cruz Azul game but overall watching TFC = watching paint dry

yeah, like the all-star game. I was watching players on both sides I have no affiliation with (Jimmy B only came on late) and yet I thoroughly enjoyed the match. The MLS team really impressed me. I'd buy tickets to any cup final in my hometown of this stature or better.

And you gotta believe this will be a damn good game, considering it means something. Unlike all those friendlies.

Super
10-14-2010, 03:15 PM
Personally I look forward to the MLS cup final. I don't think they should've forced us to pay for it, but regardless I'm happy to have the ticket in hand. It'll be good to see some good footy at BMO for once.

DichioTFC
10-14-2010, 03:18 PM
Personally I look forward to the MLS cup final. I don't think they should've forced us to pay for it, but regardless I'm happy to have the ticket in hand. It'll be good to see some good footy at BMO for once.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Plus the visiting support will be strong, should make for some fun times where we can prepare for a week or two of opponent-specific chants.

I'll be there too. Hopefully other supporters come to it as well.

Wagner
10-14-2010, 03:40 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing. Plus the visiting support will be strong, should make for some fun times where we can prepare for a week or two of opponent-specific chants.

I'll be there too. Hopefully other supporters come to it as well.


how do you figure??

16000 tix are going to TFC season ticket holders.
2000ish going to MLS Brass, execs, sponsors...
a couple hundred per team in the final...

Jeffro
10-14-2010, 04:24 PM
I wouldn't go even if they were paying me to attend. I have no interest in going to any final not involving my team when it comes to football, especially in this league. I was more okay with paying for the CCL stuff because it will involve us

We haven't qualified for it yet, so....

Roogsy
10-14-2010, 04:29 PM
Personally I look forward to the MLS cup final. I don't think they should've forced us to pay for it, but regardless I'm happy to have the ticket in hand. It'll be good to see some good footy at BMO for once.


If TFC didn't try to scam their way into another price hike, I would have gladly gone to the MLS Cup final like I did for the MLS All Star Game.

But my personal decision is similar to other people and that is to have my seats go unused. At the very least, my neighbours will be happy that they will have more elbow room.

DichioTFC
10-14-2010, 04:32 PM
how do you figure??

16000 tix are going to TFC season ticket holders.
2000ish going to MLS Brass, execs, sponsors...
a couple hundred per team in the final...

I've spoken with supporters from other clubs who have been asking for months now how to get tickets to the MLS Cup, regardless whether their team is playing or not.

I'm assuming the 100 for each section will be full.

jloome
10-14-2010, 05:44 PM
I am not a season ticket holder, and I want to be one. If you are unhappy, I am ready and willing to take your seat.

Seriously not a valid threat anymore. You and few others. There won't be a problem getting season's seats next year.

maximo_rpd
10-14-2010, 08:14 PM
It's a start guys. For a corporation to admit that they f---ed up is a big deal. It's still a decent deal to watch a game and for my money I think it's still good value.

They are listening.



??? What planet are you on? If they were "listening" they would have done something - instead they did nothing but give us "blah, blah, oops, blah, blah" - talk is cheap, and that is all they have done. I will tell you what a decent deal is - I will be buying my seats for half price next year off of 2011 season ticket holders! The "value" of tickets this year was 1/2 face value - if you could get it - do you really think the "value" is going up next year? You really think the "value" will double? Not a chance...

I for one, won't pay ML$E another cent - ever.

:scarf:

maximo_rpd
10-14-2010, 08:58 PM
Boys, as a life long football fan, isn't this what we always dreamed of? meaningful football played in Toronto. Lets not give up on this team, MLSE is holding townhalls. At least they are trying. I dont remember the leafs holding townhalls over the last 7 dreadful years. We've made our point to them and they've responded. We have one of the best home records in the league because WE pack BMO field, lets not let that slip away. I still have faith that this club will be the champions of this league one day. It will be like '92 & '93 all over again.

Toronto till I die.

Boy, where do I start with the above post...

"isn't this what we always dreamed of? meaningful football"

- uh yeah - have you seen much <meaningful football> yet? What
playoff game have you been too??? Oh yeah, we are supposed to
pay a mandatory, inflated price to go see the MLS Cup... I forgot

"Lets not give up on this team, MLSE is holding townhalls."

- oh God I can't help it ... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - Jeez that is so
funny - ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I laugh every time I read that line
(sniff, wipe tears...)
- Oh Jeez that is so bloody funny.... Am I the only one who can't
stop laugh on what he said?? oh no, here it comes again .. ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

"Boys, as a life long football fan"

- you must be 8 or 9 years old - you sound so gullible - MLSE has
treated all their TFC fans like they are 8 or 9. To explain it to
you: To be treated like you are 8 or 9 - That pisses off most
fans - particularly if they are adults...

"I dont remember the leafs holding townhalls over the last 7 dreadful years"

- 7 years??? It has been 44 effing years - where have you been?
- I might also point out that Bay St. suits don't do townhalls
- I would also point out that Tom Ass is no Obama...

"WE pack BMO field"

- Bro - have you been to a game this year? There have been a
bizzillion empty seats at almost every game - even the home
opener had noticeable empty seats...

"I still have faith that this club will be the champions of this league one day."

- we all share this same dream, but you have not been paying
season ticket prices for four years. Every one of us supports the
boys on the field, both now and in the future - we just are not
going to take the "ticket abuse" that ML$E is trying to do to us.
You have not been eating the cost of tickets for games that you
cannot attend. You have not been told that you MUST buy
price-inflated MLS Cup tickets. The list goes on... read the posts...

Oh Gosh - here it comes again... "Lets not give up on this team, MLSE is holding townhalls." ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
<editor's note - the author of this posting died laughing - the "submit reply" button was press by his every faithful dog, after dialing 911...>

Pachuco
10-14-2010, 09:56 PM
The sections I listed aren't Supporters' sections but that's the point. MLSE calls them light grey and charge more. But the standing, banners, drums, etc are all allowed and the images of the fans in those sections are marketed as atmosphere. They are supporters sections just with a higher price point.

As it stands, this "Light Grey" section is priced 2nd highest in the league, behind Seattle.

Had they been classed as "Yellow" Supporters, our prices would be 3rd highest in the league.

MLSE also charges those who are near the corner (bottom of 110 as an example) more than any other team outside of LA for that vantage point.

Our North Stand is the highest priced non-supporter behind the goal section in the league.

If you are so opposed to the idea of setting prices by comparing value with other clubs, how would you set prices?

The same way every club sets their prices. Shit every product you've ever bought.

Market Value. That's it. Simple as that. If someone is willing to pay for it at the set price it becomes market value. You can compare all you want, but nothing matters at all. The only thing that matters is that Toronto fans are willing to spend that kind of money. As soon as they stop, maybe they'll freeze prices, maybe they do more marketing, who knows. But as long as season tickets sell out, they will continue to push the buttons.

Pookie
10-15-2010, 07:05 AM
The same way every club sets their prices. Shit every product you've ever bought.

Market Value. That's it. Simple as that. If someone is willing to pay for it at the set price it becomes market value. You can compare all you want, but nothing matters at all. The only thing that matters is that Toronto fans are willing to spend that kind of money. As soon as they stop, maybe they'll freeze prices, maybe they do more marketing, who knows. But as long as season tickets sell out, they will continue to push the buttons.

Ah, if it only were that simple.

What I am willing to pay for something is the reflective of the value I get in owning that particular good or service.

"Value" is a subjective term that is influenced by other goods and services available in the market. Many things impact value including the perception of others about that particular good and service.

Prices aren't set in a vacuum. I'm a Sales Manager and work for a global company. My customers routinely compare prices relative to the local competition (in our TFC example, this would be other "entertainment" options in Toronto) and to prices that are set internationally (in this case, other MLS franchises). In all cases, they weigh the value we provide locally against variances in prices and make their purchase decision.

Yes, market value determines our local price but I can't establish market value without respecting the local and international influences.

Beach_Red
10-15-2010, 07:22 AM
Of course, one of the things that made season tickets valuable was scarcity -the games were sold out and you needed seasons to get in. That won't be the case for a while, so that will devalue season tickets for a while unless they offer something more with the purchase.

Who would buy a season ticket to the Argoes with thousands of empty seats to every game?

Nest year I will probably go to just as many TFC games as I did this year, I just won't have season tickets.

Pachuco
10-15-2010, 10:58 AM
Ah, if it only were that simple.

What I am willing to pay for something is the reflective of the value I get in owning that particular good or service.

"Value" is a subjective term that is influenced by other goods and services available in the market. Many things impact value including the perception of others about that particular good and service.

Prices aren't set in a vacuum. I'm a Sales Manager and work for a global company. My customers routinely compare prices relative to the local competition (in our TFC example, this would be other "entertainment" options in Toronto) and to prices that are set internationally (in this case, other MLS franchises). In all cases, they weigh the value we provide locally against variances in prices and make their purchase decision.

Yes, market value determines our local price but I can't establish market value without respecting the local and international influences.

You can't sell TFC in Seattle. You can't sell TFC in NY. THis isn't like Coca-Cola selling the same product worldwide. Yes what you are saying may have some influence, but you keep suggesting in your posts that this should have a major influence, when in reality, it's a very small influence. Like you said, local entertainment options in Toronto would have an influence, and a much bigger influence in my opinion. The moral of the story is there are so many variables in establishing market value that you can't just say well Seattle charges this much so we should as well. That has very little to do with how TFC sets prices. In fact I'd be shocked if they even care.

rocker
10-15-2010, 11:02 AM
yeah, i'm with Pachuco (for once). ;)

There's almost no overlap in markets at such a distance. If there was, then TFC fans would just buy up cheaper Dallas tickets and watch FCD every week at Pizza Hut Park. But if that were the case, then FCD prices would probably go up in turn.

If products have mobility, then of course national/international markets come into play. But since stadiums can't move, they don't.

International prices are irrelevant. I'm sure Dallas fans could get tickets to a Mexican league game for less than a FCD game as well. Does that mean FCD should lower its tickets to the prices of the Mexican league?

Pookie
10-15-2010, 11:12 AM
You can't sell TFC in Seattle. You can't sell TFC in NY. THis isn't like Coca-Cola selling the same product worldwide. Yes what you are saying may have some influence, but you keep suggesting in your posts that this should have a major influence, when in reality, it's a very small influence. Like you said, local entertainment options in Toronto would have an influence, and a much bigger influence in my opinion. The moral of the story is there are so many variables in establishing market value that you can't just say well Seattle charges this much so we should as well. That has very little to do with how TFC sets prices. In fact I'd be shocked if they even care.

Are you selling TFC or MLS?

TFC? This is a single entity league. Interesting to note that MLS is playing a game in Toronto that is included as part of a TFC Season Ticket Package but includes no Toronto team.

The truth is you are probably selling a bit of both so you can't ignore other markets.

To use a consumer example. Let's say you want to buy a video game system. You have choices (Playstations, Wii, etc).

You decide, I really like the Wii. So, you go to your store and they say, Wii... ummmm... $500.

You look online and say, man, that sounds like a lot. I can buy it in the USA for $199 and it comes with some controllers and a free game.

You go back to the store and highlight this. They say, I don't care. We are the only ones selling Wii's in Ontario and the government won't let you bring in one from the USA. $500. That's your price. Plus you have to buy the extended warranty.

You say, screw it and spend your money on a Playstation instead.

If my perception is that I am overcharged for TFC, you are right, I can't go buy a Sounders ticket. But if I reach the conclusion that a TFC ticket is expensive and offers me little value... I can take my disposable income and buy something else in the Toronto "entertainment" market. Maybe it's concert tickets, a Leaf game, a show, a play, NBA game, lacrosse, minor hockey, whatever.