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TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 10:20 AM
In light of the everything that's going on of late (just read the board), should TFC be heading into the last game of the season already eliminated from the playoffs, would you consider not turning up on Oct. 16th - leaving your seat empty ?

Or would that be disrespectful to the lads, etc. ?

Pants down is what it is, but wouldn't have the same effect / impact as a bunch of empty seats.

we can organize effectively for TIFOs and chants and whatnot, but do we have the stones to do something like this ? Or is it going too far ?

menefreghista
09-24-2010, 10:23 AM
We do have a road game in DC a week later.

I predict we will be mathematically still in it for this game. Simply to make some people's season ticket renewal decisions much harder.

prizby
09-24-2010, 10:30 AM
it is fucking columbus...i fucking hate columbus...i'd be there in a fucking heart beat

who's that twat from argentina
who's that diving fuckin' whore
Schelotto is his name
and he hasn't got a brain
and he won't be standing up anymore

DavydMT
09-24-2010, 10:33 AM
My 2cents. Go to the game. Stay quite and seated until 23:12. 23:13 forever red big 2 stick, flags and scarves up and start singing. But i will follow the group.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 10:37 AM
too late in the season to pull something like this off... maybe a better way would be to not come to the home opener next season ?

CoachGT
09-24-2010, 10:39 AM
Personally, I think the threat of protest seems to be occurring too much these days. It has lost its meaning.

No matter what, I'm behind the team. I think some positive moves have been made to address the situation already. The last thing I would want the players to remember about this year is the fans turning their backs on them.

H Bomb
09-24-2010, 10:43 AM
I couldnt care if the team thinks we turned our backs on them. The threat of protest happens all the time and has resulted in how many protests.....i guess it's a crying wolf thing...but there is now a wolf in the herd. I dont agree with not showing up, i'm just saying, as it was so articulately put on South Park. When there is a cancer, you fight it.

Nodoubtguy
09-24-2010, 10:49 AM
Just because I'm not happy with the FO for any reason doesn't mean I don't show up and support the team.

nascarguy
09-24-2010, 10:51 AM
if you are serious about protesting then to put your money where your mouth is.

sidvan
09-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Empty seats at the start of 2011 will make a much larger statement.

If you have them for this year, use them. Support the team until the final whistle.

Roogsy
09-24-2010, 10:55 AM
I'd rather show up with signs and banners.

nascarguy
09-24-2010, 11:00 AM
here a sign for 112 & 113
http://i51.tinypic.com/2je1d9z.jpg

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-24-2010, 11:02 AM
I'd rather show up with signs and banners.


fill the seats with banners...of our disgust!....then leave....if we are out of the playoffs by then the players will understand...NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!~.......But if we have a chance to get in..another place another time...this is and never will be against the players...but i truely believe they will undestand...if the season is lost

and empty stadium..with banners in our seats.....i can see it now

The message will get through...



ps....such topics should be in members section no??? ;)

A Stick
09-24-2010, 11:05 AM
If the team is already eliminated by Oct. 16th, I think we should all show up but not cheer, scream or have any signs and flags. Dead silence would get the message across loud and clear.

Torontotonto
09-24-2010, 11:07 AM
The FO is definetly F..... up, and are screwing us all over.
We still need to support the boys on the pitch.
It been a tough couple of weeks on everyone.
I'll be there to support.

Totally agree with some sort of protest against the FO in the upcoming games.

MKR
09-24-2010, 11:17 AM
I'll tell you the only protest that would be worth your efforts is if you actually leave the stadium.

The rest, this whole be quiet thing. it won't have as strong an effect.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-24-2010, 11:20 AM
I'll tell you the only protest that would be worth your efforts is if you actually leave the stadium.

The rest, this whole be quiet thing. it won't have as strong an effect.


agreed...

but im with the majority....it has to be a group stance...no matter what...so what ever we choose....it has to be a group choice


done with this convo.....time to focus on a huge game sat!

__wowza
09-24-2010, 11:29 AM
the sweetest gift of all from the boys is to finish 3 - 0 over the fuckin crew.

Oldtimer
09-24-2010, 11:30 AM
The best way to protest is to not renew.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 11:30 AM
Or perhaps leaving en-masse at halftime.

Wull
09-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Or leave the seats empty at the mls cup final. Let's get the league after the front office instead of just us!

Oblio2
09-24-2010, 11:40 AM
Everyone take a dump on the halfway line....THAT will get things noticed.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-24-2010, 11:48 AM
The best way to protest is to not renew.


Very true.....but wont happen and MLSE know that..

AL-MO
09-24-2010, 12:02 PM
I'll be there regardless.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 12:04 PM
No-one will commit to a complete abstention from purchasing tickets, only dropping extra STs or switching to partial packs or singles. The tickets you drop will get snapped up straight away. The effects of this form of protest will only be felt by you in the short term, and not by MLSE for some years to come.

Oldtimer
09-24-2010, 01:05 PM
Being silent or other such nonsense won't be properly interpreted by TFC.

If you're not willing to take the step of hitting them in the pocketbook by not renewing, I can't imagine why they would listen to you. It's just bluster.

Every year the same thing. Protest, protest, protest. This must be thread #1000 on some sort of protest. It won't change anything.

Roogsy
09-24-2010, 01:13 PM
The best way to protest is to not renew.


Yep.

At the end of the day, if you REALLY want results, then sacrifice is needed. Who among us is willing to drop tickets? In my group, we dropped 4 tickets out of 6 and will be sharing 2.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 01:38 PM
Being silent or other such nonsense won't be properly interpreted by TFC.

If you're not willing to take the step of hitting them in the pocketbook by not renewing, I can't imagine why they would listen to you. It's just bluster.

Every year the same thing. Protest, protest, protest. This must be thread #1000 on some sort of protest. It won't change anything.

But who cares if you don't renew, someone else will step into the void and then we begin the cycle again.

That's not the way to do it. You might feel better, but better options are showing up to games and not spending on concessions. Showing up and leaving at halftime. Showing up 10 minutes into the game. Not showing up at all for a predetermined game.

Reducing gameday spending : If you don't buy beer for one game, there's no-one who can step up and buy one in your place. Instant effect. If you multiply that over x number of people it is a measureable effect.

If you don't renew your tickets someone else will buy them and they'll spend on concessions. Your decision has had no impact.

sidvan
09-24-2010, 02:05 PM
Yep.

At the end of the day, if you REALLY want results, then sacrifice is needed. Who among us is willing to drop tickets? In my group, we dropped 4 tickets out of 6 and will be sharing 2.

Dropped 4 out of 6 and sharing 2 as well. (ditched the prawnies and the reds)

nascarguy
09-24-2010, 02:13 PM
fill the seats with banners...of our disgust!....then leave....if we are out of the playoffs by then the players will understand...NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!~.......But if we have a chance to get in..another place another time...this is and never will be against the players...but i truely believe they will undestand...if the season is lost

and empty stadium..with banners in our seats.....i can see it now

The message will get through...



ps....such topics should be in members section no??? ;)
why hide how we fell I'm not waiting in till we are out of the playoff to tell how I'm disgusted. We sould have had our playoff spot lock up by now !

Oldtimer
09-24-2010, 02:17 PM
But who cares if you don't renew, someone else will step into the void and then we begin the cycle again.



Not true. If the waiting list goes down to 0, MLSE will be scared. If it even drops substantially they will see a problem.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 02:30 PM
^ how long do you think it'll take the waiting list to drop to zero ?

mclaren
09-24-2010, 02:36 PM
I am usually not a protest type of person but SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE. If this isn't the time to PROTEST I don't know when is. Time to STAND UP. They may not listen, probably won't. But a MESSAGE needs to be sent that we are very, VERY pissed off.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Okay - it's kind of short notice, and the voters have clearly indicated that they want to attend the game on Oct. 16th, but can we vote on that day with our wallets and choose that as $0 concession-spending day ?

This would be a strong message to MLSE. This would show them that we can hit back and for every dollar they increase the price of our tickets we can take back two.

Or are we just going to piss and moan ?

Section 117
09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
probably piss and moan

Oldtimer
09-24-2010, 03:03 PM
Or are we just going to piss and moan ?

Go with that. Based on last year's protests, that's what I expect.

menefreghista
09-24-2010, 03:24 PM
$0 concession-spending day

From now on every day at BMO Field is going to be a day like this for me.

I was going to get the new jersey when it came out but have since changed my mind. I'll keep rocking my 2007 non-BMO logo jersey.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 03:26 PM
^okay, you guys piss and moan. I'll go to the game on the 16th and I'll make a conscious decision to not purchase any concessions.

To illustrate what that means to me : 3 xlarge beers + 1 steak pie + 1 sctoch egg (it's like a religion) = +/- $55. Typically I find it hard not to buy any TFC related tat, so add another $20 to the equation, plus whatever my wife would have had (she's a cheap date, but let's call it $20) = $95.

If I did that for a game or two I could make back what I'd spent on ticket increases - and that's not making a statement - that's just being smart.

Why can't you guys do that ? Why can't we all do that ?

menefreghista
09-24-2010, 03:30 PM
Why can't you guys do that ? Why can't we all do that ?

This is exactly what I'm doing.

Besides, generally the food at BMO Field is disgusting.

But I do buy 1 or 2 large beers. That won't be the case anymore.

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 03:36 PM
^ alright - that's what I'm talking about ! Who else is on board with this ?

Brooker
09-24-2010, 03:52 PM
what exactly are we protesting?

btw, Columbus is ripe for the picking these days. If ever there was a time to beat them, this is it.

menefreghista
09-24-2010, 03:54 PM
what exactly are we protesting?


For me its the inclusion of the MLS Cup ticket.

pekduck
09-24-2010, 03:55 PM
what exactly are we protesting?

btw, Columbus is ripe for the picking these days. If ever there was a time to beat them, this is it.

gave up 7 goals in last two league matches...

but... 3 of them from Blaise Nkufo courtesy of Sounders :rolleyes:

I'll settle for 1-0 over the Crew with a goal from Barrett

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 03:57 PM
(to brooker) Sore hoops from being rogered by MLSE.

nascarguy
09-24-2010, 05:43 PM
^ how long do you think it'll take the waiting list to drop to zero ?
do not care about people that are on the waiting list there a sucker born every day.

clc12
09-24-2010, 07:48 PM
if people wanna protest why not go to the mlse offices instead?

DOMIN8R
09-24-2010, 07:51 PM
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban47l.jpg

Azerban
09-24-2010, 08:00 PM
This is exactly what I'm doing.

Besides, generally the food at BMO Field is disgusting.

But I do buy 1 or 2 large beers. That won't be the case anymore.

no beer, no gear til the playoffs are here

TorCanSoc
09-24-2010, 08:04 PM
I never buy food or drinks at BMO. I can't afford it. So if my spending is zero, does that mean for my protest I have to bring food and sell it?

Awesome Paul B. pic AL-MO.

AL-MO
09-24-2010, 09:27 PM
I never buy food or drinks at BMO. I can't afford it. So if my spending is zero, does that mean for my protest I have to bring food and sell it?

Awesome Paul B. pic AL-MO.

What I do now?

:D

TOBOR !
09-24-2010, 10:12 PM
Think about it. We've got three weeks to spread the word. Can we get 500 people on board ? We can get thousands to go on a road trip, we should be able to pull this off. Especially if we float it to the other SGs. If we only get 500, and the average spend would have been $20, that's a $10,000 hit. Imagine if we can rally 1,000 and the average spend is $50 - pretty soon you'll need a calculator. Maybe that kind of money won't break MLSE, but it'll get their attention.

nascarguy
09-24-2010, 10:29 PM
I never buy food or drinks at BMO. I can't afford it. So if my spending is zero, does that mean for my protest I have to bring food and sell it?

Awesome Paul B. pic AL-MO.
I have been doing from year 1# now I do not give a fuck what this group does I'm going to do what's right for me !!!!

DichioTFC
09-24-2010, 11:41 PM
Think about it. We've got three weeks to spread the word. Can we get 500 people on board ? We can get thousands to go on a road trip, we should be able to pull this off. Especially if we float it to the other SGs. If we only get 500, and the average spend would have been $20, that's a $10,000 hit. Imagine if we can rally 1,000 and the average spend is $50 - pretty soon you'll need a calculator. Maybe that kind of money won't break MLSE, but it'll get their attention.

Not recently.

Still, I support the no concessions protest. I usually get 4 beers and maybe a pizza slice. I wont be today.

Huyton
09-25-2010, 05:22 AM
There are a number of food vendors, like the Yorktown Pie people, and the Poutine guys, who will suffer a lot if there's a "no concessions" type of protest.

They have nothing to do with the front office, and decisions made about players or the backroom staff.

You protest against them, and they'll be stuck with (possibly) thousands of dollars worth of food that will be thrown away.

These guys are typically on thin enough margins already. Sending them into bankruptcy, or creating a massive food disposal issue for them, is hardly the way to get the front office to change.

You want to protest using the concessions as a weapon? Then ONLY buy from the outside vendors.

CoachGT
09-25-2010, 08:00 AM
And the funny thing is that unless 20,000 people do it (which is extremely unlikely since only about 700 of them read these boards) such an activity might cause a "blip" on sales but not much else. MLSE has already purchased the goods for sales or received payment for the rights to sell from guys like Huyton mentions, and anything not sold at a TFC game will be sold at a leafs game, marlies game or raptors game. And, if I'm not mistaken, ML$E gets 100% of the revenue from that, whereas they have to share profits at BMO with the city (I'm not sure about concessions though).

So you'd be making more money for MLSE by doing this because the product will still get sold anyway.

TOBOR !
09-25-2010, 09:35 AM
^ Guilt by association. I understand the point you're making, but MLSE is defo taking a percentage of sales. Organised protest or not, my protest will be no concession purchases until such time I feel I'm getting better value for my money.

scooter
09-25-2010, 10:50 AM
Schelotto the diver needs to be booed and booed and booed somemore

ochos
09-25-2010, 12:19 PM
What if I wear a sign saying "Don't buy concessions - stop ML$E greed"

dupont
09-25-2010, 12:39 PM
^ Guilt by association. I understand the point you're making, but MLSE is defo taking a percentage of sales. Organised protest or not, my protest will be no concession purchases until such time I feel I'm getting better value for my money.

I'm with you. I won't buy a single thing from concessions for the rest of the season. The water drinking fountain is the place for me.

TOBOR !
09-25-2010, 01:35 PM
I guess if we all do something that we each consider a form of protest, then collectively an impact will be made.

Alixir
09-25-2010, 05:24 PM
fill the seats with banners...of our disgust!....then leave....if we are out of the playoffs by then the players will understand...NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!~.......But if we have a chance to get in..another place another time...this is and never will be against the players...but i truely believe they will undestand...if the season is lost

and empty stadium..with banners in our seats.....i can see it now

The message will get through...



ps....such topics should be in members section no??? ;)
This would be far more effective then not renewing.
The problem with not renewing is someone else will take those tickets. And even worse...you will never get those seats again.

menefreghista
09-25-2010, 05:33 PM
It wouldn't shock me if attendance was under 15,000 for this game.

ArmenJBX
09-25-2010, 05:34 PM
A simple message on a banner:

"This isn't good enough"

And you'll have FO freaking out to fix it. Or they'll just increase beer prices by 10%. One or the other.

menefreghista
09-25-2010, 05:36 PM
A simple message on a banner:

"This isn't good enough"

And you'll have FO freaking out to fix it. Or they'll just increase beer prices by 10%. One or the other.

LOL.

Anyone notice the NEE dollar sign banners today?

I thought that was pretty funny.

ArmenJBX
09-25-2010, 05:57 PM
I noticed those, good stuff. It's simply not fair to charge more for a product that isn't delivering.

It's scary to think how high prices would be if we made playoffs the last couple years.

DichioTFC
09-26-2010, 03:00 AM
So... anyone feel differently about in-game protests (aka Pulling a DeRo) now?

TorCanSoc
09-26-2010, 07:13 AM
NEE's banner campaign yesterday was nice. The point was made. Same thing but during the MLS Cup.

Did they show it on T.V.?

Huyton
09-26-2010, 07:56 AM
That was a move not worthy of our Captain.

<sarcasm>
I'm sure that Nana Attakora, Dan Gargan, Ty Harden, Joseph Nane and Amadou Sanyang, each of whom is working for 1/10th of what DeRo makes, agree that he is grossly underpaid, too.
</sarcasm>

Sally Mack
09-26-2010, 12:14 PM
Where's that we deserve butter tifo when ya need it?

TOBOR !
09-26-2010, 07:05 PM
Should be : we deserve Buttle.

JamboAl
09-27-2010, 06:23 AM
I'll be there on the 16th to send the likes of Usanov, Peterson, Mista and others off the BMO pitch for the last time as TFC players.

menefreghista
09-27-2010, 07:26 AM
I'll be there on the 16th to send the likes of Usanov, Peterson, Mista and others off the BMO pitch for the last time as TFC players.

Well, it is possible they could play a few days later against Arabe Unido.

cuecas_red
09-27-2010, 07:50 AM
How about in the MLS cup final everyone brings a stuff animal of a sheep, put it in their seat and leave the game.

menefreghista
09-27-2010, 07:52 AM
How about in the MLS cup final everyone brings a stuff animal of a sheep, put it in their seat and leave the game.

LOL. I like that.

I hope its -10 celcius for the MLS Cup.

The average daytime high for November 21 in Toronto is 3 degrees. I can only imagine how cold it will be at night.

JamboAl
09-27-2010, 09:06 AM
Well, it is possible they could play a few days later against Arabe Unido.

D'OH...good point!

Although if that game means anything, I hope I don't see any of them on the pitch.

DichioTFC
09-27-2010, 09:18 AM
LOL. I like that.

I hope its -10 celcius for the MLS Cup.

The average daytime high for November 21 in Toronto is 3 degrees. I can only imagine how cold it will be at night.

:lol: Please let it be two warm-climate teams as well... :D

Detroit_TFC
09-27-2010, 11:35 AM
I know people don't want to hear this but the fact is you have only a consumer decision here - anything else is useless and self-delusional. Buy tickets or don't.

TOBOR !
09-27-2010, 12:09 PM
I know people don't want to hear this but the fact is you have only a consumer decision here - anything else is useless and self-delusional. Buy tickets or don't.
hmmm... kind of. Naturally I understand what you are saying, but as long as you're not in the park then you have no voice. If you purchase the tickets, you control them and can use the games as an opprotunity to do whatever you want as long as you don't violate any in-house rules or laws.

What I'm getting at is buy the tickets and come to games in your black t-shirts, stand with your back to the field, wave your anti-establishment flags and banners and be heard... or don't purchase the ticket and be replaced by the next guy in line who won't do any of the above.

Ultimately you're doing the former empowered by the threat of the latter, but I believe MLSE wants the passionate fan at the game, rather than the milquetoast variety found in other climes.

Detroit_TFC
09-27-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm just skeptical that any sort of justice-based argument has much chance. MLSE is selling corn flakes and we want it be a civic institution answerable to the masses. We cannot win that fight.

TOBOR !
09-27-2010, 01:47 PM
I don't disagree - but essentially that's just giving up.

DichioTFC
09-27-2010, 02:21 PM
I'm just skeptical that any sort of justice-based argument has much chance. MLSE is selling corn flakes and we want it be a civic institution answerable to the masses. We cannot win that fight.

See, you're using reason and rationale. Thats why you're skeptical. :rolleyes:

As a Canadian living in the United States, there's concrete differences between the Canadian way of doing things and the American way. The Canadian way is to argue how things "ought" to be. MLSE *ought* to be responsive to our concerns. MLSE *ought* to invest in the Academy and build a roof without raising ticket prices. MLSE *ought* to do this and that. I really think its a holdover from British loyalist tradition to the Crown (i.e. the numerous formalities in our day-to-day lives are routed in tradition).

If things are not how they *ought* to be, people quickly resort to empty threats and open-ended, vague rants; i.e. refusing to renew (while something like 80%-90% have already renewed), following the team but not spending any more (ignoring parking, beer, food are still purchases), being angry at the overlords who run the show and proclaiming they are the embodiment of evil (see Peddie, Richard).

So yeah, the Canadian way.

TFC Cityboy
09-27-2010, 02:32 PM
See, you're using reason and rationale. Thats why you're skeptical. :rolleyes:

As a Canadian living in the United States, there's concrete differences between the Canadian way of doing things and the American way. The Canadian way is to argue how things "ought" to be. MLSE *ought* to be responsive to our concerns. MLSE *ought* to invest in the Academy and build a roof without raising ticket prices. MLSE *ought* to do this and that. I really think its a holdover from British loyalist tradition to the Crown (i.e. the numerous formalities in our day-to-day lives are routed in tradition).

If things are not how they *ought* to be, people quickly resort to empty threats and open-ended, vague rants; i.e. refusing to renew (while something like 80%-90% have already renewed), following the team but not spending any more (ignoring parking, beer, food are still purchases), being angry at the overlords who run the show and proclaiming they are the embodiment of evil (see Peddie, Richard).

So yeah, the Canadian way.
as opposed to the American way of going postal with a gun eh?
:)

Yeoman
09-28-2010, 09:52 AM
Being silent or other such nonsense won't be properly interpreted by TFC.

If you're not willing to take the step of hitting them in the pocketbook by not renewing, I can't imagine why they would listen to you. It's just bluster.

Every year the same thing. Protest, protest, protest. This must be thread #1000 on some sort of protest. It won't change anything.


and like said
how many have we HAD?!?
you want to sit there and pretend everything is aokay, then so bet. i'm not a blind deaf lemming.
but alas, i have to follow to group line overall, if we even get one.

promojosh
09-28-2010, 10:24 AM
hmmm... kind of. Naturally I understand what you are saying, but as long as you're not in the park then you have no voice. If you purchase the tickets, you control them and can use the games as an opprotunity to do whatever you want as long as you don't violate any in-house rules or laws.

What I'm getting at is buy the tickets and come to games in your black t-shirts, stand with your back to the field, wave your anti-establishment flags and banners and be heard... or don't purchase the ticket and be replaced by the next guy in line who won't do any of the above.

Ultimately you're doing the former empowered by the threat of the latter, but I believe MLSE wants the passionate fan at the game, rather than the milquetoast variety found in other climes.

Your belief is the same hope I had in year 1. Once again, MLSE has proven their only want is $$$$. Take a look at the ACC on game night during the first period. How many fans are there? Look again, halfway through the 2nd. Notice more people? Notice that they're not paying attention and not cheering? That's what MLSE wants. Idiots who blow money like it's burning a hole in their pocket, with no TRUE concern for the product.

The original supporters ask too many questions and make too much noise. Conversely, they sometimes act like Canadiens fans during the playoffs by burning and breaking stuff. Remember all the stories from year 1 and parts of year 2 regarding GO Train vandalism, fights, taserings, etc...? When was the last time you heard this? It's good to see the hooliganism sects dropping like flies, but it also indicates a drop in passionate fans. i am not qualifying the wanna be hooligans with being the most passionate but instead stating that the original passion is gone because the MLSE structure as already infiltrated the crowd. Most of the mid-section ticekts are being purchased by scalpers or the corporate set (just like Leafs games) and not being used or being transferred to friends and family who "just want to see what all teh fuss is about but I'm not going to join in. Oh! and I'm going to leave early so I miss all the Gardiner/QEW traffic or busy GO train." This is the way. This is what they want. these people don't ask questions, protest or openly speak out against these tactics. they will sit, buy pizza for the kids, a couple of hats, some flags and maybe a beer or a cooler for the wife, and then head home. MLSE bought a load of crappy TFC merch that the true fans know better than to buy en masse but will easily be snapped up to put in Timmy's bedroom. That kind of blind spending and faith is what drives MLSE's structure and profits. THEY WANT US OUT!!!!!

The only plus side from this (as a soccer fan and supporter) is that this means more kids will have local soccer idols to cheer for and mimic (hopefully, not taking cue's from the hideous display by our captain last week) and grow soccer passion again. that's a plus as a soccer fan. the ONLY plus

I do however agree with the start of your original argument. If i could continue with my seats, I would be actively looking to work within groups to start taking a stand. It's gone on too long and my voice can only be heard through visible action. they can't see me wearing black while I watch streams of games from my den adn therefore don't care that i'm doing that. As a group, doing this as a collective and sticking to it, they would see our disgust. they would still continue to raise prices for all the things I mention above. our vocalness and intelligence is ultimately our undoing.

TOBOR !
09-28-2010, 12:27 PM
things having evolved as they have over the last week, I wonder if many people would change their poll answer ? I bet if we tank tonight we'll see more than a few empty seats Oct. 16th and the place'll be half empty on the 19th.