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View Full Version : after 2010 where MLS should expand



mighty_torontofc_2008
06-25-2008, 07:53 PM
where after Seattle and philadelphia should MLS start looking for further
expansion.

NF-FC
06-25-2008, 07:58 PM
Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Portland, St. Paul,and St. Louis

Miami, Tampa, Atlanta, and NY2 can go to hell

mighty_torontofc_2008
06-25-2008, 08:03 PM
Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Portland, St. Paul,and St. Louis

Miami, Tampa, Atlanta, and NY2 can go to hell


Forgot the Minnesota area...bring back the kicks!! St Louis is already a gimme since they lost out the last two times. Vancouver needs to get the stadium issue done once and for all or miss out, BC place is not exceptable.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
06-25-2008, 08:06 PM
Teams Closer to THE CENTER of MLS!! TORONTO! :)

ROCHESTER NY 2hrs
DETRIOT 3HRS
OTTAWA 4HRS
MONTREAL 5hrs
PITTSBURG 5hrs

Hop skip and a jump! ..:) would make for some road trips!

werewolf
06-25-2008, 08:07 PM
lets not forget Milwaukee...yahoo sports certainly didn't

Carts
06-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Montreal...

The stadium and support are already there...

Why go to a city that "promises" a stadium, and "hopes to build" support, when you have a city that already has both...

Saputo would need to expand, but the stadium was built for it - and would be done before playing their 1st game...

Carts...

mednus
06-25-2008, 08:18 PM
Vancouver, St. Louis 2011
Montreal, Atlanta 2012
Miami, NY2 2017

Vancouver - big organization in BC - all levels of USL
St.Louis - ready now needs lead time to build organization
Montreal - Expand stadium and increase ticket sales (not Comps)
Atlanta - 8th largest TV market in US (finishes 1-10)
Miami - MLS seems to want to return (not sure about this one)
NY2 - always been in the plan not going to change that (bring back the COSMOS)

toonarmy
06-25-2008, 08:38 PM
I would be shocked if Detroit was seriously considered for an MLS franchise, with the way things are going there now. They can't even put people in the seats at Red Wings games because the economy is so poor.

Personally, I think it would be a shame if Montreal and Vancouver don't get teams. I heard on the CBC that they wanted to cap the league at 20 teams, though, and they might not be first in line.

mighty_torontofc_2008
06-25-2008, 08:43 PM
I would be shocked if Detroit was seriously considered for an MLS franchise, with the way things are going there now. They can't even put people in the seats at Red Wings games because the economy is so poor.

Personally, I think it would be a shame if Montreal and Vancouver don't get teams. I heard on the CBC that they wanted to cap the league at 20 teams, though, and they might not be first in line.


No one is arguing Vancouver won't support a team..the stadium issue is the killer, and if Vancouver doesnt get in soon it maight be 2015 or later for the caps, will the owner wait that long?

Canadian Blue
06-25-2008, 09:25 PM
The MLS should stop expanding for at least 5 years to allow the new teams to develop. The league will get to waterdown and it will become crap!!!

werewolf
06-25-2008, 09:26 PM
shouldn't be more then 20 teams in top tier.

nascarguy
06-25-2008, 09:46 PM
Vancouver, St. Louis 2011
Montreal, Atlanta 2012
Miami, NY2 2017

Vancouver - big organization in BC - all levels of USL
St.Louis - ready now needs lead time to build organization
Montreal - Expand stadium and increase ticket sales (not Comps)
Atlanta - 8th largest TV market in US (finishes 1-10)
Miami - MLS seems to want to return (not sure about this one)
NY2 - always been in the plan not going to change that (bring back the COSMOS)
no 2nd for ny city in till the can sell 20,000 season ticket for 2 to 3 years

adampz
06-25-2008, 09:46 PM
shouldn't be more then 20 teams in top tier.

You're right, no more then 20 teams, if other city's keep expressing interest for mls, Don Garber should make a MLS2. Take the teams from USL with the best support, and put them in a league with other city's that want an mls team.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-25-2008, 10:05 PM
I heard that Tobermory is pretty multicultural and could support an MLS team with all the locals and tourists/end sarcasm

Id bet St Louis, Portland, New York 2, MAYBE Montreal and MAYBE MAYBE Vancouver. If Sapputo gets his ish together and really really pushes the MLS AND does something in the USL i can see Montreal dipping in before New York 2 (and MAYBE Portland).

Regardless, US teams are going to be a priority especially ones that either a) have a big history with soccer and/or b) were part of the original MLS plan. The states (and most of Canada) just still isnt ready for soccer, its a shame but a fact. There are too many other sports supported in a bigger fashion. I dont blame them and in fact i think its smart. You wanna see teams turn out like KC and Columbus? Put em in the South and midwest (as well as out of the 3 major canadian cities, im not kidding, Canada is multicultural in the major cities and white as fuck outside of them, not unlike the US, even where its mixed, Soccer is still less embraced then the 4 major sports).

adampz
06-25-2008, 10:08 PM
why a second new york team, they dont get great support for the red bulls? Why make another team

Ossington Mental Youth
06-25-2008, 10:08 PM
Vancouver, St. Louis 2011
Montreal, Atlanta 2012
Miami, NY2 2017

Vancouver - big organization in BC - all levels of USL
St.Louis - ready now needs lead time to build organization
Montreal - Expand stadium and increase ticket sales (not Comps)
Atlanta - 8th largest TV market in US (finishes 1-10)
Miami - MLS seems to want to return (not sure about this one)
NY2 - always been in the plan not going to change that (bring back the COSMOS)

Not a bad analysis.

Miami supposedly had a deadline that ended on June 5th where they were to put forth a group who could afford a team, apparently the city was for it but couldnt find any buyers. Id say that Miami is out (as is any other Florida team).

Atlanta doesnt even support any of its other teams i dunno why they would start with soccer, regardless of how big the tv market is.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-25-2008, 10:09 PM
why a second new york team, they dont get great support for the red bulls? Why make another team

I agree 100%, the argument is that IF they put a team in the city ALL the cultures/groups that follow soccer would rally around this team as opposed to the New Jersey based team with notoriously terrible marketing.

Im not buying it.

Roogsy
06-25-2008, 10:10 PM
St Louis needs to have a team. Its like having a basketball league and not having a team in New York. Soccer has roots and history in St Louis that they dont have in...Miami...or Dallas...or Boston. MLS needs to put a team in St Louis, end of.

adampz
06-25-2008, 10:14 PM
I agree 100%, the argument is that IF they put a team in the city ALL the cultures/groups that follow soccer would rally around this team as opposed to the New Jersey based team with notoriously terrible marketing.

Im not buying it.

They should have made the new red bulls park in manhattan, well i guess that would have been really expensive, why not queens or brooklyn then? Nobody wants to go out to jersey these days

Ossington Mental Youth
06-25-2008, 10:17 PM
They should have made the new red bulls park in manhattan, well i guess that would have been really expensive, why not queens or brooklyn then? Nobody wants to go out to jersey these days

No clue, seems like an obvious move, no?
Could be price of land?
Really dunno, that club is terribly managed even under new ownership (which is usually the opposite after Lalas leaves)...

Ossington Mental Youth
06-25-2008, 10:35 PM
Dunno anything about San Diego (cept its close to the border). Seems to be brought up alot and favored as a new destination for Chivas... Itd be a tough thing to get people down there that support a Mexican team to switch over to an American team... May be able to convince people to watch the sport... really dont know about San Diego as a market, they really dont have anything (cept a zoo) down there...

werewolf
06-25-2008, 10:39 PM
I would question San Diego's success. It is obvious the Mexican population in LA hasn't taken to the team, and there is certainly more Mexicans in LA then SD, 100 miles closer won't mean much. And I highly doubt they will get a downtown stadium with the price of land downtown and the current structures being built. And if they not going to market to Mexicans, the other main population in the area is Navy and Marines...not sure they are the target market for a Mexican team.

Cashcleaner
06-25-2008, 11:02 PM
New York won't get a second team. I'm tired of having to keep explaining it, so if anyone disagrees, I suggest reading up on the Red Bull's current attendance numbers.

And after seeing the dreadfully small crowd at Swangard tonight in the game against the Impact, I have my doubts we'll see Vancouver get a team either.

mighty_torontofc_2008
06-25-2008, 11:04 PM
New York won't get a second team. I'm tired of having to keep explaining it, so if anyone disagrees, I suggest reading up on the Red Bull's current attendance numbers.

And after seeing the dreadfully small crowd at Swangard tonight in the game against the Impact, I have my doubts we'll see Vancouver get a team either.

thought tonighst game would have had a good crowd too....but lets see what BMO gets Monday~!!

Mojo
06-26-2008, 02:50 AM
why a second new york team, they dont get great support for the red bulls? Why make another team

The argument is that because theyre based in New Jersey, real New Yorkers don't care/cant make the trek.

A team in the heart of NYC would get more fans based on being an actual New York team.

ensco
06-26-2008, 07:01 AM
Miami and Montreal

Oldtimer
06-26-2008, 07:39 AM
Miami and Montreal

Miami has a lot of latinos, but they're the cuban baseball loving variety. Not sure that footy would do well there, even though their first franchise failed more due to managerial incompetence.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-26-2008, 08:03 AM
Miami has a lot of latinos, but they're the cuban baseball loving variety. Not sure that footy would do well there, even though their first franchise failed more due to managerial incompetence.

Agreed

ensco
06-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Do any of you guys who draw these conclusions about Miami know the city, or the history of soccer in South Florida?

1) They're not that into baseball down there - Marlins attendance is not something to be bragging about. Drive around: all you see are soccer fields, not baseball fields
2) The interest in soccer in Miami exceeds that of any city in North America, by far (including Toronto and Montreal). Ask Tyrone Marshall (I have) - he played for the Fusion, and he'll tell you that there's no place like Miami in terms of soccer culture in North America.
3) The Fusion failed because they played in a high school stadium 30 miles from Miami, and had truly horrible ownership. Also MLS was a very different league in 2001 (back then, there was nowhere near the number of players from South America, no Beckham/Blanco, the league itself was on the verge of failure, etc)

Miami is 65% hispanic/latino. Only half are Cuban - there are large Honduran, Nicarauguan, Haitian and Dominican communities. There are also sizable, wealthy enclaves from every country in Central and South America. Miami has some of the best Peruvian and Argentine restaurants in the world.

Build a well-located SSS in South Florida, and watch what would happen!

Just to be clear, Montreal has many of the same positives in terms of demographics, soccer interest, etc....and although it's a smaller market, they have the stadium, so I'd rank Montreal ahead of Miami.

But overall, these two cities are country miles in front of the others, in terms of having natural interest and support.

TFC-Tyler
06-26-2008, 01:59 PM
Since Montreal and Vancouver are a given, I voted Ottawa.

Billy the kid
06-26-2008, 02:28 PM
The league seems to really like Vancouver. They've been courting them for a while, even releasing that statement after the BC place announced renovations. I think they'll get one despite not having a stadium yet. I don't think any other Canadian team will make the 18 team cutoff, unless they expand further.

I think the Ottawa meeting was a courtesy. I think they're pretty far back on the priority list. Montreal may have to wait until a team folds to get in.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Do any of you guys who draw these conclusions about Miami know the city, or the history of soccer in South Florida?

1) They're not that into baseball down there - Marlins attendance is not something to be bragging about. Drive around: all you see are soccer fields, not baseball fields
2) The interest in soccer in Miami exceeds that of any city in North America, by far (including Toronto and Montreal). Ask Tyrone Marshall (I have) - he played for the Fusion, and he'll tell you that there's no place like Miami in terms of soccer culture in North America.
3) The Fusion failed because they played in a high school stadium 30 miles from Miami, and had truly horrible ownership. Also MLS was a very different league in 2001 (back then, there was nowhere near the number of players from South America, no Beckham/Blanco, the league itself was on the verge of failure, etc)

Miami is 65% hispanic/latino. Only half are Cuban - there are large Honduran, Nicarauguan, Haitian and Dominican communities. There are also sizable, wealthy enclaves from every country in Central and South America. Miami has some of the best Peruvian and Argentine restaurants in the world.

Build a well-located SSS in South Florida, and watch what would happen!

Just to be clear, Montreal has many of the same positives in terms of demographics, soccer interest, etc....and although it's a smaller market, they have the stadium, so I'd rank Montreal ahead of Miami.

But overall, these two cities are country miles in front of the others, in terms of having natural interest and support.

Why is it that the USL team (granted the Lynx did terribly up here) is doing so poorly and they cant find a group of people to pay for this team (even when the mayor has said he would support the building of a SSS)?

Im playing the devils advocate but i also dont think itd work in Miami.

profit89
06-26-2008, 02:51 PM
it shouldnt expand beyond 18 teams... instead it should focus on some sort of promotion/relegation system

ensco
06-26-2008, 04:21 PM
Why is it that the USL team (granted the Lynx did terribly up here) is doing so poorly and they cant find a group of people to pay for this team (even when the mayor has said he would support the building of a SSS)?

Im playing the devils advocate but i also dont think itd work in Miami.

Two reasons:

1) USL just isn't MLS (as you said) - Miami's a bigger city than Toronto, people just won't accept USL in the larger MSAs
2) They're playing in a non-SSS high school stadium - different one than the Fusion used (this one is a little better located, but not perfect), but it's still not the right venue

Ossington Mental Youth
06-26-2008, 04:23 PM
Sorry to reiterate my point (it may have been missed and im not trying to come across like a dick but it wasnt mentioned) but why isnt there a group vying for an MLS club then? Why havent we heard otherwise? At least in St Louis, Portland, Montreal and Vancouver there are either supporters/billionaires or both...

I have no doubt the MLS would love to go south but there havent been any chances to. They had high hopes for Arizona but look how that friendly between NYRB (yes, yes i know, theyre shite, hilarious) and Chivas went...

deltox
06-26-2008, 04:41 PM
yea miami is not bigger than toronto

ensco
06-26-2008, 08:24 PM
yea miami is not bigger than toronto

Miami is bigger than Toronto.

"Greater Miami" is 5.9 million people, and doesn't include a significant population of another 500,000-750,000 within one hour to the north
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami,_Florida#Demographics

GTA is 5.5 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Demographics

ensco
06-26-2008, 08:28 PM
Sorry to reiterate my point (it may have been missed and im not trying to come across like a dick but it wasnt mentioned) but why isnt there a group vying for an MLS club then? Why havent we heard otherwise? At least in St Louis, Portland, Montreal and Vancouver there are either supporters/billionaires or both...

I have no doubt the MLS would love to go south but there havent been any chances to. They had high hopes for Arizona but look how that friendly between NYRB (yes, yes i know, theyre shite, hilarious) and Chivas went...

This is a valid point about Miami. They have a group but nothing like ours, SJ's or Seattle's. St. Louis has the same problem, btw.

Re Phoenix, I have no idea whatsoever why anyone would think that's a priority MLS expansion candidate. You simply cannot play outdoor sports there in the summer.

Nazzer
06-26-2008, 08:37 PM
At the MLS allstar game In Toronto Garber will announce that in 2010 Montreal will join the league, and in 2011 (the year the BC place lease starts) Vancouver will join. They may have a couple american teams like St Louis and Miami, but that doesn'r matter.

rocker
06-26-2008, 08:42 PM
Canada will get at least 1 more team. The league needs a Canadian brother for TFC, particularly to help Canadian TV ratings. A strong Canadian duo is good for the league.
Whether Canada gets 2 teams, I'm not sure. But if the league could duplicate TFC in Montreal and Vancouver, they'd go for it. In a league so driven by money sharing, these two new canadian franchises could end up being great moneymakers to support the smaller american markets.

ManUtd4ever
06-27-2008, 12:05 PM
la shite province! I want a real derby...

Keystone FC
06-28-2008, 04:36 AM
This is a valid point about Miami. They have a group but nothing like ours, SJ's or Seattle's. St. Louis has the same problem, btw.

Re Phoenix, I have no idea whatsoever why anyone would think that's a priority MLS expansion candidate. You simply cannot play outdoor sports there in the summer.

Unless Phoenix could come up with a domed SSS (which is doubtful). The people of PHX will not fork over any more money for sports facilities with the way water consumption has risen in Arizona the past few years.

Keystone FC
06-28-2008, 04:48 AM
Portland may be announced soon...according to MLS Rumors:
http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/06/expansion-hola-portland.html
Other candidates include:
Atlanta,
Las Vegas,
San Diego,
St. Louis,
Miami,
Montreal,
Vancouver, British Columbia,
New York City.

greatwhitenorf
06-30-2008, 11:09 PM
I would have to say Montreal has its ducks properly lined up. St. Louis would also make a lot of sense, but Miami would jump ahead if it had a stadium to play in. Must have a roof for shade or play night games

I would to get a proper facility lined up or built and then relocate Chivas to San Diego. Then I'd call Vancouver and see how things are progressing. Bad news from there might be good news for Portland.

After that, I'd be very choosy. Ottawa would be worth looking at if Melnyk is involved. Would never go to Vegas. Players don't make enough money to resist temptation of gambling money. Wouldn't go to Detroit either.

Surprise location worthy of long-term consideration? Charlotte, North Carolina. Very prosperous area, no baseball to compete with and quite the soccer hotbed forming down there. NASCAR superstar Dale Earnhardt cheerfully admits to playing midfield on his high school team. Bend It Like Bubba.

ExiledRed
07-01-2008, 12:01 AM
New York won't get a second team. I'm tired of having to keep explaining it, so if anyone disagrees, I suggest reading up on the Red Bull's current attendance numbers.

And after seeing the dreadfully small crowd at Swangard tonight in the game against the Impact, I have my doubts we'll see Vancouver get a team either.

The argument is that the current New Jersey team is inaccessible to most of New York, so the Red Bull situation is confusing the issue.

New York is densely packed and difficult to navigate quickly, and in such cities there are MANY who don't drive, and even the ones that do, dont drive anywhere quickly. In a nutshell, the idea of New yorkers getting to New Jersey for matches, regularly, is unrealistic.

The current figures your suggesting we read up on only reflect the demographic in New Jersey itself, ask yourself what kind of figures we would have if TFC played in Peterborough.

Cashcleaner
07-01-2008, 01:21 AM
^ Regardless of why the Red Bulls aren't generating interest, the league would be foolish to place another team in an area where attendance and overall support simply isn't there. You can argue that a team could be successful if put in a central location unlike the Red Bulls, but would that sort of scenario really come to fruition? I have my doubts, and with that in mind, a second New York franchise doesn't seem likely.

ua-kozak_TFC
07-01-2008, 09:35 AM
I donno althought I would like to ahve mls expand to Montreal... but i don;t think they deserve it really... on the game against TFC they didn;t sell out a 12 k stadium same against the caps how can they sell out a20 k stadium?... I would rather MLs go to a city that have a a big fan base... only then MLS can reach the heights of one of the great soccer tournament in the world.