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Oldtimer
09-21-2010, 12:15 PM
Given the price increase, what will you do? Will you be dropping any of your season tickets?

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 12:16 PM
At this point, I am probably dropping 2 seats. I am about 90% certain. I have to speak to my rep though.

Oblio2
09-21-2010, 12:17 PM
Dropping my 2 in 127
90% im dropping my 2 in 110

Fort York Redcoat
09-21-2010, 12:17 PM
Renewing my one ticket but moving it to a cheaper area. When and how is this done?

H Bomb
09-21-2010, 12:22 PM
I genuinely dont know. I dont want to give them up, i love my place, i feel right when im standing in my place. i simply dont know if i can afford it.

Suds
09-21-2010, 12:23 PM
The decision to drop my extra seats has been made. Those are not being renewed.

Carts
09-21-2010, 12:24 PM
There's needs to be a "downgrade" option in the poll...

Be it going from 4-seats to 2... Or Dark Greys to Light... etc...

Downgrading isn't as huge as dropping all your tickets - but for some of us with Reds or Dark Greys, dropping to Light Greys is a big sign the price increase / added games / MLS Cup is an issue...

Plus, a mass exodus from the expensive seats will make selling new tickets harder... Moving a $450 a year supporter ticket is much easier than a $1100 dark grey...

Carts...

Nuvinho
09-21-2010, 12:32 PM
I am buying Argos and Blue Jays tickets instead.....hahaha!!

Juanito
09-21-2010, 12:32 PM
There is no value in having season tickets when I can buy seats whenever I want. I would end up saving money. TFC lives in a fantasy world!!

Only MLSE can manage to take the goodwill and general enthusiasm of a fanbase and bleed it dry in four years.

Oldtimer
09-21-2010, 12:33 PM
There's needs to be a "downgrade" option in the poll...


Will you drop any seats is the question.

No point in asking "I'll keep it if I can get cheaper seats," as we have to decide before the relocation event.

Dave67
09-21-2010, 12:34 PM
Renewing my one ticket but moving it to a cheaper area. When and how is this done?

Relocation time and only if a seat is available during your slim relocation window. If it's not available you are on the hook for the money in your current seats. You will have already needed to make one or two of your 25% payments by the relocation window.

Carts
09-21-2010, 12:37 PM
Will you drop any seats is the question.

I added a cheaper seats option.

That's perfect...

Because I'm not 'dropping seats' but I am certainly considering 'dropping $$$' at relocation (depending on what I can get)...

If the Club / Red / Dark Gray's have a large amount of people moving to the Light Gray's etc - it'll be tough for the reps to convince waiting-listers to shell out $3000-$2300 on tix as a new customer...

Carts....

mastermixer
09-21-2010, 12:41 PM
At this point, I am probably dropping 2 seats. I am about 90% certain. I have to speak to my rep though.

Are you hoping your rep talks you out of it?

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 12:44 PM
No, but once I have spoken with him it will be a certainty either way.

Oldtimer
09-21-2010, 12:48 PM
That's perfect...

Because I'm not 'dropping seats' but I am certainly considering 'dropping $$$' at relocation (depending on what I can get)...

If the Club / Red / Dark Gray's have a large amount of people moving to the Light Gray's etc - it'll be tough for the reps to convince waiting-listers to shell out $3000-$2300 on tix as a new customer...

Carts....

Edited my post and took out the option, because we need to decide before we know if we can downgrade.

Parkdale
09-21-2010, 12:57 PM
seat relocation will be interesting this year.

If my buddy wants to buy my reds, I'll renew them. If he doesn't want them, I'll probably relocate them into the south (if possible). If there's nothing I terribly like, then I'll drop down to 2 seats.

Tezza
09-21-2010, 12:57 PM
I will renew this year and look to relocate to cheaper seats. I expect there will be a lot of us doing this which means the cheaper seats will still be full but the dynamic of the sections will be different. (maybe better, maybe worse). Also it may be difficult for them to sell the more expensive seats which leaves us with a ton of empty seats ruining the atmosphere of the game.

I have been able to tolerate the shitty performance of the team so far far due to the fact that the experience of going to a TFC game has been entertaining at least. Once the fun expereince stops and the team is still shitty.....it's all over and I don't see me ever coming back.

flambe
09-21-2010, 12:59 PM
Not exactly dropping my tickets, but looking to sell them on as I missed most of this season due to work and next year is only going to be busier.

I don't want to give up the rights to my seats as one day I might actually be able to regularly attend again. :yesnod:

That said, if anyone is interested in front row 111's PM me.

Suds
09-21-2010, 01:01 PM
seat relocation will be interesting this year.

If my buddy wants to buy my reds, I'll renew them. If he doesn't want them, I'll probably relocate them into the south (if possible). If there's nothing I terribly like, then I'll drop down to 2 seats.

Don't you have to put your deposit down before the relocation event? That would mean you have to keep all 4 tickets for the next year weather you relocate them or not. (or am I missing something in the process??)

JonO
09-21-2010, 01:02 PM
seat relocation will be interesting this year.

If my buddy wants to buy my reds, I'll renew them. If he doesn't want them, I'll probably relocate them into the south (if possible). If there's nothing I terribly like, then I'll drop down to 2 seats.
Parky - relocation is after renewal though, so you will be stuck with them for at least this season - regardless where they are in the stadium, no?

I have chatted with the boss and I will likely drop my 2 red seats. Will be interesting to see a poll after Oct 15 "Did you drop season tickets?" to see if how many follow through after the initial anger passes

Carts
09-21-2010, 01:04 PM
Parky - relocation is after renewal though, so you will be stuck with them for at least this season - regardless where they are in the stadium, no?

I have chatted with the boss and I will likely drop my 2 red seats. Will be interesting to see a poll after Oct 15 "Did you drop season tickets?" to see if how many follow through after the initial anger passes

I'm renewing, but will be active at relocation to drop down a price range...

Carts...

Parkdale
09-21-2010, 01:05 PM
naw... if I put the 25% deposit down, and then move seats from an expensive area to a cheaper one, my account will be credited with the difference.

I'm always going to keep my 4 seats, the question is just where will all 4 seats be located.


this might make me unpopular (deal with it) but I think that $440 seats in the South End aren't too expensive for my blood.
It's still like $21 bucks a game, and I can live with that quite comfortably. The $80 a game seats..... TFC isn't that good.

JonO
09-21-2010, 01:09 PM
I'm always going to keep my 4 seats, the question is just where will all 4 seats be located.
I think Suds and I were just commenting because you mention dropping down to 2 seats...

Parkdale
09-21-2010, 01:12 PM
oh right.... I did say that. Well I mean I would drop down to 2 seats at a point that wouldn't cause a financial loss.

Vancity RED
09-21-2010, 01:20 PM
If I had em I'd drop em.

billyfly
09-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Parkdale doing market research for MLSE again.

I know it was Oldtimer that started the thread. Trying to cover your tracks eh, Parky?

Mikey
09-21-2010, 01:24 PM
I was hoping to ditch all four of mine, but Anne is swaying towards keeping two.

sidvan
09-21-2010, 01:24 PM
Dropping 2 Club seats and 2 Reds, but keeping my 2 in south end

Kevvv
09-21-2010, 01:24 PM
There will be cheaper seats available at relocation. Scalpers holding a dozen seats will drop some. At the end of the day, if they can't turn a profit (on "big" games or by consistently getting a markup), they'll dump some.

But like so many others have mentioned, the high $ seats will be the first ones dropped.

woolly
09-21-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm thinking of dropping/ downgrading my seats in 121. I'm loathe to part with them as they're damn good seats but I just can't justify the $$$ when I have to give a number of them away.

I'd like to downgrade, but think I'll wait until my rep tells me how it will be handled. I can see MLSE allowing people on the waiting list to fill the cheaper seats to leave the expensive seats filled once they have us on the hook.

maninb
09-21-2010, 01:27 PM
There is no value in having season tickets when I can buy seats whenever I want. I would end up saving money. TFC lives in a fantasy world!!

Only MLSE can manage to take the goodwill and general enthusiasm of a fanbase and bleed it dry in four years.

Well said...exactly what my 3 mates and I are doing...we've had seats in 108 since the beginning...dropping them now...

Snowy
09-21-2010, 01:29 PM
I dropped 2 of my 4 in the dark greys. My rep didn't try to talk me out of it, just said he would adjust my invoice and it would be ready later today.

Parkdale
09-21-2010, 01:31 PM
Dropping 2 Club seats and 2 Reds, but keeping my 2 in south end


MLSE is killing the golden goose.

people are keeping the $440 seats and dropping the $1500+ ones.

TOBOR !
09-21-2010, 01:32 PM
I'm a Gold-Lister no longer interested in Season Tix. In fact, rather than purchase 2 x 2 partials, I'll likely just get 2 x 1 and single game tix to a couple of other games.

Is there an option for that, or don't non-STs rate ?

Should I start my own thread ?

Afra
09-21-2010, 01:34 PM
I am dropping my 4 in 109 - unless someone has $4600 to me by October 15th then they can have them. 3 together, 1 separate take one or all.

nfitz
09-21-2010, 01:34 PM
Personally I'm still planning to upgrade from a partial pack to a seasons; if they'll offer me anything other than Red ... or dark Blue.

rocker
09-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I only have 2 seats, so nothing to drop. Price change this year is negligible for me in dark greys. I was planning to attend MLS Cup anyways. I do wanna relocate, and it looks like this may be the best year to do that. I tried last year but the options were few. I'll go up to red, as the price difference with dark greys isn't that much. But right now it's all about location, location, location for me.

maninb
09-21-2010, 01:45 PM
Damn...if ya figure half the "UNSURE" drop their tix...this is a HUGE indictment of TFC's management...me thinks they're gonna shit the bed if this comes to fruition...

mclaren
09-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Made my decision and dropping my season ticket in 110 (been here since day one)

Jeffro
09-21-2010, 01:57 PM
My buddy that I go with is dropping his ticket, strongly considering dropping mine too.

boomcha
09-21-2010, 02:00 PM
So glad I dropped my extra ticket in 109 last year and moved my single ticket to 111. Last year was around $370 or and this year its around $490 for the same seat. If I was still in 109 paying for 2 tickets it would be crazy this year.

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 02:01 PM
I only have 2 seats, so nothing to drop. Price change this year is negligible for me in dark greys. .


My 2 seats are in 111.
It was often difficult to get people to come with me to games.
I may drop one of them and just keep one for myself.
If I want to bring someone, I'm sure I can pick up a ticket for them before the game.

nascarguy
09-21-2010, 02:02 PM
i can afford go to watch this shit anymore. I was gone even if we won the cup next year I only care about the NCC and CL.

JonO
09-21-2010, 02:06 PM
I'll go up to red, as the price difference with dark greys isn't that much. But right now it's all about location, location, location for me.
Obviously it's subjective, but the jump to reds will cost you $400+ per ticket.

Jack
09-21-2010, 02:09 PM
A lot of the early supporters are being priced out of their seats.

We'll see what happens. Who will replace them?

The people who have been sold on the "atmosphere" for 4 years. The people who go to the game and call their friends in the middle of the game and say "this is crazy, man" and then film the chanting while not watching the game.

They'll get some seats with "those crazy guys in the south" and then the south won't be so crazy anymore. Then these tourists will get bored and the south will get more empty.

Nice work, TFC Management.

I'll keep my pair of seats in 112 because it would really break my heart to give them up. But the price is getting up there. $500-$700-$900 in the past 3 seasons for a pair. Still a reasonable price at about $20 per seat per game, but for how long?

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-21-2010, 02:24 PM
seat relocation will be interesting this year.

If my buddy wants to buy my reds, I'll renew them. If he doesn't want them, I'll probably relocate them into the south (if possible). If there's nothing I terribly like, then I'll drop down to 2 seats.

you wont have troubles re-locating to the south....guranteed!

TFC Cityboy
09-21-2010, 02:40 PM
gonna be lots of empty seats one way or another next season. It'll be fun to see the spin that Herr Goebbels and the rest of MLSE's Ministry of Propaganda put on it.

rocker
09-21-2010, 03:02 PM
The people who have been sold on the "atmosphere" for 4 years. The people who go to the game and call their friends in the middle of the game and say "this is crazy, man" and then film the chanting while not watching the game.

They'll get some seats with "those crazy guys in the south" and then the south won't be so crazy anymore. Then these tourists will get bored and the south will get more empty.

Well, if they actually won more games and played well, they wouldn't have to use the supporters as the selling point. I love the south end but I don't come to watch the south end. I come to watch a match.

I thought people were always complaining about the "tourists" in the south end?

Jack
09-21-2010, 03:11 PM
Well, if they actually won more games and played well, they wouldn't have to use the supporters as the selling point. I love the south end but I don't come to watch the south end. I come to watch a match.

I thought people were always complaining about the "tourists" in the south end?
That's my point.

They are selling the tickets based on the atmosphere while simultaneously pricing a lot of supporters out of their seats. So when those supporters give up their seats, the people who want "atmosphere" will move in. But without the supporters the atmosphere will be diminished, thus leading to a downward spiral.

Combined with the upward spiral of prices, it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I agree that putting a team out there that can compete would help.

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 03:20 PM
That's my point.

They are selling the tickets based on the atmosphere while simultaneously pricing a lot of supporters out of their seats. So when those supporters give up their seats, the people who want "atmosphere" will move in. But without the supporters the atmosphere will be diminished, thus leading to a downward spiral.

Combined with the upward spiral of prices, it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I agree that putting a team out there that can compete would help.

I agree.

It honestly boggles my mind how MLSE can actually think that this price structure (especially considering TFC's on-field misery), will make financial sense down the road.

Support for local soccer is very fragile around these parts.
It has a lot of potential, but you have to ease people into being willing to shell out the big coin.
Shoving cost down their throats at this early stage is very dangerous.

Maybe it's time some Toronto investor got a NASL team (or whatever that league is called).
They could probably peruade some TFC fans to jump off the good ship MLSE.

Toerag
09-21-2010, 03:31 PM
I have 4 seasons in 127, hardly went this year.. They didn't sell well, even had trouble giving them away !!

Don't see myself paying $2000 this year, really considering giving them up.

ExiledRed
09-21-2010, 03:32 PM
funny, when these threads happen and somebody declares that they are dropping tickets, they are usually followed by three booster posts stating

"I'll take them if you dont want them"

Where are those guys?

rocker
09-21-2010, 03:33 PM
That's my point.

They are selling the tickets based on the atmosphere while simultaneously pricing a lot of supporters out of their seats. So when those supporters give up their seats, the people who want "atmosphere" will move in. But without the supporters the atmosphere will be diminished, thus leading to a downward spiral

So you're saying we should cater to the people who come for the atmosphere? "I wanna see those CRAZIES in the south end. DUDE! Those guys are whack! Who they playin' bro? I dunno, dude."

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 03:33 PM
funny, when these threads happen and somebody declares that they are dropping tickets, they are usually followed by three booster posts stating

"I'll take them if you dont want them"

Where are those guys?


YNpgnojMG-4

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 03:34 PM
So you're saying we should cater to the people who come for the atmosphere?


I think you might be losing sight of the big picture.
The point is, Toronto FC has a reputation for good support.
I don't care if some people come to the games because the like the atmosphere... it means the supporters are doing a good job.
But when the supporters are priced out of the games, then what?
You actually think TFC can survive with Maple Leaf type atmosphere?
Support for MLS is in its infancy, and average Joe is not going to be interested in shelling out big bucks for sub-par footie and a dead atmosphere.

rocker
09-21-2010, 03:36 PM
I think you might be losing sight of the big picture.

Why don't you explain it to me?

I find it fascinating that people in the south end value themselves so highly.
"It's all ruined IF I CANNOT ATTEND!" Well, if you cannot attend, it doesn't matter then right? You'll be doing other things while the rest of us are watching TFC.

I also find it fascinating that people in the south end can't afford $20 a game. The "upward spiral" argument is irrelevant for 2011 tickets. If you cannot afford $20 a game you got bigger problems.

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 03:39 PM
Jack already did. Not sure what is difficult to understand in the scenario he painted?

To summarize: the people who make game-day what it is are being priced out leaving behind only people looking for the famous "atmosphere" but who are simply spectators not participants. When they find the atmosphere is not there anymore, they too will leave and who will be left?

Super
09-21-2010, 03:39 PM
TFC originally said that 14k sold per game would be a solid level on which to kick off this new footy club in Toronto. They just may hit that number come next season.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-21-2010, 03:40 PM
nope, only got em in the supporters section, reasonably priced, prob never give em up

Jack
09-21-2010, 03:40 PM
So you're saying we should cater to the people who come for the atmosphere? "I wanna see those CRAZIES in the south end. DUDE! Those guys are whack! Who they playin' bro? I dunno, dude."

I am saying that when they drive out the supporters who create the atmosphere, those are what you're going to have left. Those people who come only for the atmosphere won't stick around after their first season of having tickets in the "crazy section" if that crazy section isn't so crazy anymore. So when the guy you quoted above gets tickets in 112 or 113 and the atmosphere isn't the same because the supporter whose seat he bought decided not to renew, then that guy won't renew and you'll be left with one less subscriber AND no atmosphere upon which to market (not to mention a shitty team). It seems like a recipe to disaster. Not now, but 2 or 3 years from now. Add to that the reduction of ticket demand through expansion of the stadium to 30k and I just don't get what they're trying to do.

Anyway, after looking at the pricing, it isn't that much more than last year, it just seems like more because they put it all together in one package.

rocker
09-21-2010, 03:42 PM
Jack already did. Not sure what is difficult to understand in the scenario he painted?

To summarize: the people who make game-day what it is are being priced out leaving behind only people looking for the famous "atmosphere" but who are simply spectators not participants. When they find the atmosphere is not there anymore, they too will leave and who will be left?

So you're saying spectators (the non-participants) are only there for the atmosphere?

Who will be left? How about the people who are there for the soccer?

I think you are drastically simplifying the various categories of TFC fans. I don't think there are simply two camps.

I fit precisely into the group that doesn't chant. I'm not there to hear Red Patch Boys sing. I'm there for the sport. I'll always be there. People are not that simplistic.

If south enders are being priced out by $20 tickets, then I don't care. Businesses don't price products so that people on welfare or who have to support 4 kids on a single paycheque or who have low paying jobs can afford 4 seats to 22 games. If you cannot afford $20 a game then that's a problem for you, not TFC.

London
09-21-2010, 03:44 PM
Why don't you explain it to me?

I find it fascinating that people in the south end value themselves so highly.
"It's all ruined IF I CANNOT ATTEND!" Well, if you cannot attend, it doesn't matter then right? You'll be doing other things while the rest of us are watching TFC.

I also find it fascinating that people in the south end can't afford $20 a game. The "upward spiral" argument is irrelevant for 2011 tickets. If you cannot afford $20 a game you got bigger problems.

my tix are 20 bucks a game plus 30 bucks to drive there 20 times, parking, spending 5 hours getting to and from the match, eating before or after.

it all weighs in on the product on the field not improving and right now has no real direction.

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 03:47 PM
So you're saying spectators (the non-participants) are only there for the atmosphere?

Who will be left? How about the people who are there for the soccer?

I think you are drastically simplifying the various categories of TFC fans. I don't think there are simply two camps.

I fit precisely into the group that doesn't chant. I'm not there to hear Red Patch Boys sing. I'm there for the sport. I'll always be there. People are not that simplistic.

If south enders are being priced out by $20 tickets, then I don't care. Businesses don't price products so that people on welfare or who have to support 4 kids on a single paycheque can afford 4 seats to 22 games.


Those that are there for the soccer are also getting tired. All classes, regardless of why you are there are feeling the frustration of this team which is only compounded by unjustified price hikes. Maybe you might not be yet but others are. My impression from friends who are STH, all of whom are NOT in the south stands and have tickets in the pricier west stands are that they will not be renewing. They barely renewed last year. After this year's shitshow, they are definitely out. And that has nothing to do with the "Red Patch Boys". What Jack is alluding to is that TFC always counted on the supporters group to "add" to the game day experience for many people which in many ways justified what they were paying for. With that in danger, there is even less reasons to renew. It really isn't difficult to understand unless you are intentionally being obtuse. Regardless of the reasons why you are there, TFC is making sure that any and all of those reasons have been diminished.

Super
09-21-2010, 03:48 PM
TFC with terrible atmosphere would almost be a deal-breaker for me. The quality of football is pretty poor, but at least the atmosphere makes it feel like the genuine experience. You take away the atmosphere and you're stuck with just an overall poor product. I'm betting next year, with the thousands of empty seats, will remind everyone of just how low we've gone from season one.

rocker
09-21-2010, 03:51 PM
my tix are 20 bucks a game plus 30 bucks to drive there 20 times, parking, spending 5 hours getting to and from the match, eating before or after.

it all weighs in on the product on the field not improving and right now has no real direction.

I understand. But that's your costs and every individual must assess their costs. TFC can't say "well, we'll price our tickets based on the cost it would take a guy from London Ontario to travel to Toronto, along with all associated costs." I pay 2296 this next year for my seats. I can afford. Not a big deal. I'm not complaining. Am I just some rich prawnie and not a true fan? hmmm... If some guy in the south end is priced out and I'm not, does that make things worse? I guess so, cuz I'm just a nobody. ;)

Also, season tickets are a pretty extreme purchase. you can buy 1 game, 2 games, three games, and so on. you can buy partial packs. You can split the cost with a family member or friend. There are sooooo many options to make it affordable to you. 22 games is massive commitment. It's the most extreme option as a sports fan.

I'm amazed when fans buy seasons tickets to 40-plus Leafs games, or in the old days people would buy 81 games of Jays. 81 games?!?!

Super
09-21-2010, 03:53 PM
I fit precisely into the group that doesn't chant. I'm not there to hear Red Patch Boys sing. I'm there for the sport. I'll always be there. People are not that simplistic.

So you could care less if there is a great atmosphere at BMO or not? You honestly enjoy a game either way? I sure don't. And that's the point made by many on here. Call me a purist, but growing up I loved the sound and energy of the crowd at games. A proper football atmosphere is part of the overall game experience, and is part of the fun. Obviously we're all there to watch the football, but just like a concert I have more fun if I'm in a large, loud crowd, than if I'm in a half-empty venue. And trust me, the noise and energy of a full stadium inspires improved player performance as well.

Supporters leaving the stadium should be a concern for all, period.

London
09-21-2010, 03:54 PM
^^^well they should LOL

i am just going to drop from 4 to 2 as some times i couldnt even give the tix away, even here.

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 03:54 PM
So you could care less if there is a great atmosphere at BMO or not? You honestly enjoy a game either way? I sure don't. And that's the point made by many on here. Call me a purist, but growing up I loved the sound and energy of the crowd at games. A proper football atmosphere is part of the overall game experience, and is part of the fun. Obviously we're all there to watch the football, but just like a concert I have more fun if I'm in a large, loud crowd, than if I'm in a half-empty venue. And trust me, the noise and energy of a full stadium inspires improved player performance as well.

Supporters leaving the stadium should be a concern for all, period.


If it's just "soccer" I am interested in, I will stay at home on Saturdays and watch hours of EPL, Liga and Seria A thank you very much.

JonO
09-21-2010, 03:57 PM
If it's just "soccer" I am interested in, I will stay at home on Saturdays and watch hours of EPL, Liga and Seria A thank you very much.
Exactly - anyone who thinks that the crown atmoshpere doesn't add to the gameday experience hasn't been to a leafs game in while...

The quality of the soccer is poor. There is no arguing that. However, the ability to support a local team, going to the stadium and watching live soccer is what TFC/MLS is all about to me... Take away the experience and I'll just watch epl on tv

Flipityflu
09-21-2010, 03:57 PM
i'm dropping my season ticket. i'm tired of it. i've supported the club from the begining, but my patience has run dry. i'm angry and upset about it. i have had fantastic times at BMO, but i can no longer support an owner who uses us as a marketing device, then shits on us.

all i ask is this....those of you who are going to renew, please consider holding off until the last minute. maybe it isn't too late to change their mind on this package.

thanks

Beach_Red
09-21-2010, 03:59 PM
So you're saying spectators (the non-participants) are only there for the atmosphere?

Who will be left? How about the people who are there for the soccer?

I think you are drastically simplifying the various categories of TFC fans. I don't think there are simply two camps.

I fit precisely into the group that doesn't chant. I'm not there to hear Red Patch Boys sing. I'm there for the sport. I'll always be there. People are not that simplistic.

If south enders are being priced out by $20 tickets, then I don't care. Businesses don't price products so that people on welfare or who have to support 4 kids on a single paycheque or who have low paying jobs can afford 4 seats to 22 games. If you cannot afford $20 a game then that's a problem for you, not TFC.


Sure there are more than two camps. I don't know where I fit, I've been a sports fan for a long time but I was new to soccer with TFC. In fact, I was reluctant to try a new sport but my neighbour was in with almost twenty other guys who bought seasons tickets the first year and when one of them got transferred out west I took over his ticket.

What I really liked about going to BMO was that it was different than other sporting events I've been to in Toronto. And the 'atmosphere' had a lot to do with that. (If I still lived in Montreal I have no doubt I'd have seasons tickets to the Als at Molson stadium. If the Argos played in a small, sold-out stadium I'd be there.)

Now, of those original twenty guys I'm one of only two left and it looks like we won't take the seasons tickets and just pick up tickets for games here and there.

Super
09-21-2010, 04:03 PM
If it's just "soccer" I am interested in, I will stay at home on Saturdays and watch hours of EPL, Liga and Seria A thank you very much.

And you'd get a much, much better product as well. I'm all for supporting a properly run club, but if TFC is dead-set on feeding us a perverted version of the sport that I love then I'll have to bow out with the rest of them. It's not about the money for me, it's the principle. This club is run by idiots who do not understand or appreciate the game. That's painfully obvious after 4 years. Now they've proven that they couldn't care less about the fans either - adding to the cost of what has been at best a piss-poor product from day one. So be it - let them ruin the whole thing and then learn from their mistakes when BMO is finally empty.

MLSE would've been much, much better served by lowering the cost of tickets 20% - as an apology for fucking up the last four years. They'd still make a huge profit. At least then more people would go, stay with the club, and potentially be willing to pay more next year. Now, well, as we're seeing, people are fleeing in droves. That means lost revenue in tickets, beer, food, merc, TV, etc., etc.. And MANY of these people are so disgusted that they won't come back - ever. I can't blame them. What a lost opportunity. TFC is run by a pack of idiots - IDIOTS!

But oh well. Maybe I'm the idiot for renewing my ticket. At least I only have the one - if I had more I'd drop them in a heartbeat.

Mikey
09-21-2010, 04:04 PM
I think everyone and their dog should go to the academy game at Lamport on Oct 3rd, (well before renewal deadline) see what its like if 1000 turn up (more?), party in the stands, bring the flags, drums, banners and cheer them on.

Super
09-21-2010, 04:05 PM
all i ask is this....those of you who are going to renew, please consider holding off until the last minute. maybe it isn't too late to change their mind on this package.

thanks

Yes! Not only that, also do the payment plan. Make it loooong and difficult for TFC to get that money. Hopefully that'll make them sweat a little bit.

I know it's easier to just pay it off and then not think about it, but I think there's a message to be said if we all hold off payment as long as possible.

DaBandit
09-21-2010, 04:09 PM
If it's just "soccer" I am interested in, I will stay at home on Saturdays and watch hours of EPL, Liga and Seria A thank you very much.

here here.. it's the entire game day experience for me. the train ride, the buzz on the way to the stadium. the electricity inside and so on...

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 04:11 PM
MLSE would've been much, much better served by lowering the cost of tickets 20% - as an apology for fucking up the last four years. They'd still make a huge profit. At least then more people would go, stay with the club, and potentially be willing to pay more next year. Now, well, as we're seeing, people are fleeing in droves. That means lost revenue in tickets, beer, food, merc, TV, etc., etc.. And MANY of these people are so disgusted that they won't come back - ever. I can't blame them. What a lost opportunity. TFC is run by a pack of idiots - IDIOTS!


This is the part that I agree with the most. Although I don't believe a 20% drop was necessary, a symbolic gesture such as a 1% drop across the board would have sent a clear message of considering the fan who has been there from the start and endured 4 years or BRUTAL soccer culminating with this year's puke-worthy product on the pitch. And you know what? They would have generated so much goodwill for that simple and pretty meaningless gesture that most of these conversations probably wouldn't be happening.

Instead, they are threatening to piss off people who once they give up tickets, won't ever sign up again. And let's be honest here, this isn't the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's not like this team has generations of supporters behind it and a culture in this city that would never let it die. If at any point it becomes irrelevant with fans or the media, the effort to bring it back to where it was at the start will be so great, they will be kicking themselves for having ruined it in the first place.

I get that TFC is mostly run by novices in various positions. But you'd think that they'd learn from the mistakes of others. You don't mess with what works. And these guys had something that "worked" pretty much land in their laps from year 1 and from then on decided to make each consecutive year worse and even more distressing is that they are oblivious to it.

ArmenJBX
09-21-2010, 04:18 PM
This is the part that I agree with the most. Although I don't believe a 20% drop was necessary, a symbolic gesture such as a 1% drop across the board would have sent a clear message of considering the fan who has been there from the start and endured 4 years or BRUTAL soccer culminating with this year's puke-worthy product on the pitch. And you know what? They would have generated so much goodwill for that simple and pretty meaningless gesture that most of these conversations probably wouldn't be happening.

Instead, they are threatening to piss off people who once they give up tickets, won't ever sign up again. And let's be honest here, this isn't the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's not like this team has generations of supporters behind it and a culture in this city that would never let it die. If at any point it becomes irrelevant with fans or the media, the effort to bring it back to where it was at the start will be so great, they will be kicking themselves for having ruined it in the first place.

I get that TFC is mostly run by novices in various positions. But you'd think that they'd learn from the mistakes of others. You don't mess with what works. And these guys had something that "worked" pretty much land in their laps from year 1 and from then on decided to make each consecutive year worse and even more distressing is that they are oblivious to it.

And I believe this is the very first time I agree with you 100% :D

Super
09-21-2010, 04:22 PM
This is the part that I agree with the most. Although I don't believe a 20% drop was necessary, a symbolic gesture such as a 1% drop across the board would have sent a clear message of considering the fan who has been there from the start and endured 4 years or BRUTAL soccer culminating with this year's puke-worthy product on the pitch.

I honestly don't think that 1% or anything below 20% would be enough to bring back the people who are completely fed up and done with the TFC product. They look at the money spent, and they wonder: "Am I getting value for my dollar"? The answer is obviously a big fat no. On top of that many are offended by the poorly run club, and how we have to pay top dollar for everything - be it tickets, beer, food, or a jersey.

reggie
09-21-2010, 04:24 PM
im keeping mine...i love futbol.

smeghead
09-21-2010, 04:29 PM
Am i renewing my tickets. Thats a big fat no. Ive found out this year ive enjoyed watching CSL soccer at a tenth of the price.

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 04:37 PM
My buddy that I go with is dropping his ticket, strongly considering dropping mine too.

NOOOOO!!!!! Don't abandon 118 Jeffro... :(


That's my point.

They are selling the tickets based on the atmosphere while simultaneously pricing a lot of supporters out of their seats. So when those supporters give up their seats, the people who want "atmosphere" will move in. But without the supporters the atmosphere will be diminished, thus leading to a downward spiral.

Combined with the upward spiral of prices, it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I agree that putting a team out there that can compete would help.

Agree with this entirely, but I don't think it will be death in just one off season.

My feeling is that we have now reached the stage where people are dropping "extra" tickets and/or relocating to cheaper ones in greater numbers then before, and more casual fans are dropping tickets. MLSE will be able to fill those (or most of them) from waiting list people who want to get on the ladder. But that well will run dry pretty soon if A) the team keeps failing dismally in the league and B) the club loses its reputation for having a great game day atmosphere (which it might over time). MLSE needs to seriously step up what it is delivering, because a few more years of the same and the fan base will have dwindled to the oint where the waiting list cannot replace the gaps any more.

From season one to this. Madness. Utter madness. :facepalm:

EDIT - I have 2 supporter section pairs, will probably drop one of them. The other one I will keep for a while, but if this keeps up (ie, 225% price increases every 4 years) then even if we win the MLS Cup every season I'll be dropping the remaining pair too.

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 04:45 PM
Something to consider:

If there are those of you in higher priced sections that don't want to spend the money on another season,
And there are those of you in the cheap supporter seats who aren't going to renew,
Then the cheap seat people should consider selling their seasons to those leaving the expensive seats.
Because while many may not want to pay for the pricey seats, they may be willing to purchase cheaper tix.

Maybe we should have a thread in the ticket forum where people can state what tickets they are giving up, and what tickets they are looking for (if any).
At least that way, we might get some RPB into the South End to fill some of the spots opened up by those leaving.

Did I make any sense there?

Beach_Red
09-21-2010, 04:46 PM
I honestly don't think that 1% or anything below 20% would be enough to bring back the people who are completely fed up and done with the TFC product. They look at the money spent, and they wonder: "Am I getting value for my dollar"? The answer is obviously a big fat no. On top of that many are offended by the poorly run club, and how we have to pay top dollar for everything - be it tickets, beer, food, or a jersey.


From the very beginning people have been making a distinction between the "suburban soccer mom" crowd in other MLS cities and the fans in Toronto. I think even Danny Dichio sai dthat in other cities it was more of a "day out" but real football supporters in Toronto.

So, you're probably right there's not much that could be done to bring back the people who are completely fed up with TFC product. Well, really, all they'd have to do is freeze ticket prices for three years and hire a big-name "Director of Soccer" and DP but there's the problem.

Suburban soccer moms are a low-maintenance customer taking their kids out for a few hours. They're a much easier audience to please. They're ideal for MLSE.

Maybe they'll get to that 14,000 tickets sold per game they thought they'd get in the beginning.

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 04:52 PM
Won't someone please put a USL team in Toronto?
(and put a roof on it's stadium)

gtaguy
09-21-2010, 04:59 PM
Im going to leave my decision to the last minute. And when i tell the old man what mlse has done to us again he will probably have a bird and i might just end up going alone to the stadium which i refuse to do.. My old man opts out and thats the end of tfc in this household....

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 04:59 PM
Maybe they'll get to that 14,000 tickets sold per game they thought they'd get in the beginning.

If that 14,000 number is true and that's what they budgeted for to turn a profit, but they were actually getting 20,000 a game, then why the fuck have they felt the need to gouge the shit out of supporters by placing such massive price hikes on the SSH packages each year?! That is sickening as well as incredibly short-sighted and stupid.

Like that guy on Dragon's Den always says - the dark forces of greed have clouded their judgement... [can't work out how to get a photo of him in, so some techy genius please do the honours, thanks!]

spark
09-21-2010, 04:59 PM
I fit precisely into the group that doesn't chant. I'm not there to hear Red Patch Boys sing. I'm there for the sport. I'll always be there. People are not that simplistic.

Why don't you just go to a CSL game then if you are there "for the sport". You could save yourself about $2k and still be "there for the sport".
At this point you sound like an MLSE lackey.

Joe Kool
09-21-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm giving TFC one more year of buying my pair of seasons. I can no longer afford my current seats for the full season with the additional cost but making the gamble on the relocation for this year to lower the cost. If that fails and I am stuck in my price level then I will try to sell as many pairs as needed to bring the price down. If that fails then that is me out for the following year unfortunately because I will only make that gamble once then I am out if it doesn't pay off.

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 05:04 PM
If that 14,000 number is true and that's what they budgeted for to turn a profit, but they were actually getting 20,000 a game, then why the fuck have they felt the need to gouge the shit out of supporters by placing such massive price hikes on the SSH packages each year?! That is sickening as well as incredibly short-sighted and stupid.

Like that guy on Dragon's Den always says - the dark forces of greed have clouded their judgement... [can't work out how to get a photo of him in, so some techy genius please do the honours, thanks!]

Who? Kevin O'leary?

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0909/kevin_oleary_0904.jpg

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 05:11 PM
Who? Kevin O'leary?

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2009/0909/kevin_oleary_0904.jpg

yes, and that's the exact picture I tried to link in from Google images. PM me the magic formula Roogs... :D

Boschmeister
09-21-2010, 05:11 PM
Something to consider:

If there are those of you in higher priced sections that don't want to spend the money on another season,
And there are those of you in the cheap supporter seats who aren't going to renew,
Then the cheap seat people should consider selling their seasons to those leaving the expensive seats.
Because while many may not want to pay for the pricey seats, they may be willing to purchase cheaper tix.

Maybe we should have a thread in the ticket forum where people can state what tickets they are giving up, and what tickets they are looking for (if any).
At least that way, we might get some RPB into the South End to fill some of the spots opened up by those leaving.

Did I make any sense there?

Isn't there an issue around changing the name on the account? I thought there was, if not I would definitely like to pick up some more seats in 115 and get rid my pricey seats.

Gazza_55
09-21-2010, 05:12 PM
Dropping my two in 109. $2300 a year is nuts

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 05:14 PM
Isn't there an issue around changing the name on the account? I thought there was, if not I would definitely like to pick up some more seats in 115 and get rid my pricey seats.

You cannot transfer ownership of your tickets to another person.
What I was getting at was simply selling tickets but not the rights.
There would have to be some agreement worked out between the people.
And it would likely have to be a year by year thing since the person whose owns the rights could decide they want to use the tickets for the following season because TFC are suddenly worth watching again.

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 05:15 PM
Flats - stop salvaging MLSE's season ticket sales dude!! Are you in cahoots with Parkdale on the MSLE books?! :D

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Flats - stop salvaging MLSE's season ticket sales dude!! Are you in cahoots with Parkdale on the MSLE books?! :D

Hahaha... no cahooting going on here.

Just thought I would try to help out some of those RPB who are getting hosed in the prawn seats.

Kevvv
09-21-2010, 05:18 PM
Flatpicker has cahooties

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 05:19 PM
Flatpicker has cahooties


That's ok... I'll just make one of these.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qOCSWZg5Ju8/SY8rebeAucI/AAAAAAAAAXM/FHGUgVfAVsk/s320/cootie-catcher.jpg

Super
09-21-2010, 05:20 PM
I agree, a great way of getting back at TFC is to relocate to the south end. Or at least cheaper seats. It's not hurting the team, it's hurting the owners.

CretanBull
09-21-2010, 05:26 PM
Everyone's plan seems to be to relocate to cheaper seats...how many cheaper seats do you guys think will be available? I'm guessing that somewhere around 10,000 people have the same plan.

flatpicker
09-21-2010, 05:33 PM
Everyone's plan seems to be to relocate to cheaper seats...how many cheaper seats do you guys think will be available? I'm guessing that somewhere around 10,000 people have the same plan.


But there some people here who are planning on giving up on their "cheap" seats.
They could sell them instead to RPB who want to get rid of their expensive seats.

CretanBull
09-21-2010, 06:01 PM
But there some people here who are planning on giving up on their "cheap" seats.
They could sell them instead to RPB who want to get rid of their expensive seats.

For sure, I hope to see this happen!

I just think in general the demand for cheap seats FAR outweights the number of them available....the number of people looking to walk away or relocate from reds etc. to light greys and yellows is going to be a lot higher than the number of people who decline to renew light greys/yellows.

A lot of people on the waiting list will be getting calls, I expect there to be quite a few club seats and reds available...I also expect 99% of the people on the waiting list to say no.

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 06:08 PM
I also expect 99% of the people on the waiting list to say no.

I disagree on this point. One thing that MLSE are not is stupid when it comes to making money. There's no way they would take a punt on suffering a big hit in SSH sales if they weren't confident of making up the short fall from renewals. My guess is they have done enough market research on the waiting list (through surreptitious calls or e-mails such as "we don't have anything for you this year, but let us know what you'd be interested in so we can contact you if anything comes up" or just plain calling people and asking what they're hoping for if they get on the list) to know what demand is out there.

Basically, we all make assumptions about the waiting list but MLSE will have tapped it so that they can be confident of selling out the seats even with price increases.

I now the general theory is that there were a lot of empty seats in the expensive areas and people could not give those tickets away, so there's no market for them any more, but MSLE don't care if people buy the tickets and fail to turn up, they just care about whether there's enough demand on the waiting list to sell the season tickets in the first place.

They know fuck all about running a good MLS or football team, but they are brilliant at making money. I doubt they will have left the waiting list t chance when it's sitting there waiting to be plugged for info...

mclaren
09-21-2010, 06:29 PM
Currently 67% of those polled will either be dropping or maybe dropping (unsure) their season tickets next year. That is a poll of fans who are dedicated enough to spend considerable time on a TFC message board. What about the more casual fans out there?

CretanBull
09-21-2010, 06:30 PM
^^ I get your point, I just can't imagine that there are people out there waiting to pay $2000 to watch TFC play. They might find some suckers who will bite for the sake of becoming season ticket holders with hopes of relocating to cheaper seats ASAP, but as we saw this year the demand isn't what it used to be - especially for expensive seats.

You're right, they don't care if people show up or not if the ticket is paid for, but if someone who paid for them last year realized that they couldn't even give their tickets away the likelihood of them willing to ante up again this year is much lower. Its those people who will be looking to relocate to cheaper seats next year. MLSE might take advantage of a fan desparate to become a season ticket holder who's willing fill that red seat for next season, but that person will quickly learn the lesson that the fan before them learned and look to move out too.

Short term of course it will make MLSE money...long term the ill will and resentment it creates will ruin this club.

Beach_Red
09-21-2010, 06:41 PM
They know fuck all about running a good MLS or football team, but they are brilliant at making money. I doubt they will have left the waiting list t chance when it's sitting there waiting to be plugged for info...




What have they ever done that makes you think they're "brilliant" at anything? This team (and the stadium) fell into their lap and they did what any other business would have done, nothing more.

Of course they've left the waiting to chance, what else could they do? It doesn't cost anything to be on the list so lots of people signed up when TFC looked like the hot ticket in town. Toronto is a very trendy city (I suppose most places are) an now that the bloom is off the rose dedmand will disappear.

Hey, it wasn't that long ago the Argos sold a huge amount of tickets and Blue Jays games were sold out.

MLSE is no better at running the team off the field than they are on the field it's just off the field there's no other team competing with them. But they may beieve their own press that they're "brilliant."

CretanBull
09-21-2010, 06:43 PM
^ Amen

kaos197O
09-21-2010, 06:48 PM
^^ I get your point, I just can't imagine that there are people out there waiting to pay $2000 to watch TFC play. They might find some suckers who will bite for the sake of becoming season ticket holders with hopes of relocating to cheaper seats ASAP, but as we saw this year the demand isn't what it used to be - especially for expensive seats.

You're right, they don't care if people show up or not if the ticket is paid for, but if someone who paid for them last year realized that they couldn't even give their tickets away the likelihood of them willing to ante up again this year is much lower. Its those people who will be looking to relocate to cheaper seats next year. MLSE might take advantage of a fan desparate to become a season ticket holder who's willing fill that red seat for next season, but that person will quickly learn the lesson that the fan before them learned and look to move out too.

Short term of course it will make MLSE money...long term the ill will and resentment it creates will ruin this club.
The suits may be! Look at ACC. No shortage of businesses buying up those tix and writing them off as a business expense. They have deep pockets and are always bringing new clients resulting in more sales of merchandise and certainly BEER! MLSE would then rely on the remaining supporters (whom they will throw a bone too at some point to keep them there) to create enough of an atmosphere for these suits to continue to buy. Honestly, compared to what they will pay for seasons to see the Leafs, $2k is pocket change!

Soon we won't be able to decipher ACC from BMO anymore. Only positive there would be that a roof would then be imminent.....well for the suits it would be anyways!

I am still unsure. Between road trips, tickets, beer and food, merch and gas to and from Waterloo 2 people spent $10k this year. That's 4 real nice vacations a year. If I renew there will be no road trips, merch, food or beer. I will also look at relocation but i really can't imagine moving away from the group that I am currently sitting with so........UNSURE!

reggie
09-21-2010, 07:06 PM
looks like a lot of the RPB are giving up there tickets...so i guess they are not renewing with RPB also??

king dave
09-21-2010, 07:14 PM
In previous seasons, I had heard that you can arrange an easier payment schedule if you ask your ticket rep. I am not sure if I will renew at this point but this is my plan if I do.
My pair went up 25% (including more games + the MSL Cup) to $1680.
So I will propose a deposit of 25% in Oct. ($420) and 4 payments of $315 in Nov., Dec., Jan. and Feb.
I think if you are probably going to renew you should consider this route if the payment schedule is a bit much.
They know the product they are selling is on the 'day old' shelf and I think if enough of the SSHs, especially from the early years lol, request this they will have to be somewhat obliging.
KD.

reggie
09-21-2010, 07:16 PM
my rep helped me spead out my payments.

Cashcleaner
09-21-2010, 07:38 PM
I just got off the phone with Paul Attfield from the Globe and Mail discussing the price of season tickets next year and I told him that it's more than likely that I will NOT be renewing my seat in 2011.

The price of my tickets has been steadily increasing since the inaugural season and I just don't see the justification for it when you consider how the team has been performing, the quality of the venue we're playing in, and what sort of other benefits we receive compared to other fans in the league.

Barring any lottery windfall or inhertience from a long-lost great-uncle, I just can't legitimize laying down close to $500 for my seat in 111 anymore. If a cheaper seat opened up in the supporter section, I would consider a move, but I'd say that's pretty unlikely to happen.

Wagner
09-21-2010, 07:41 PM
Cashzilla...
any talk of the forced MLS Cup tix??

kind of sad...how they copied your look for a lot of the promo stuff...
and now you might be priced out.

F them.

mclaren
09-21-2010, 07:57 PM
My anger has really biq turned to sadness....that all our efforts and support over the past few years has come down to this...being priced out of the club. Who would've thought that on the day we celebrated Danny's first goal at BMO?

rocker
09-21-2010, 07:58 PM
Barring any lottery windfall or inhertience from a long-lost great-uncle, I just can't legitimize laying down close to $500 for my seat in 111 anymore.

That's too bad. Cashzilla was a classic.

Although I'm a bit surprised -- you can't squeeze out $500 in a year? Dude that's less than $10 a week -- the price of a few Starbucks each week.

SoccMan
09-21-2010, 08:03 PM
Ha Ha, I predicted this from the start that TFC having good attendance would not last. I kept coming on this board right from the start telling people that if the product on the field did not improve eventualy attendance would drop and it looks like for next season we will be lucky to get ant crowds close to the 20,000 mark. For all you people who have been to Columbus and saw what there empty stadium looked like well that's what BMO Field will resemble on game days starting next year. I called it but people thought I did not know what I was talking about. I have been following pro soccer here in Toronto since the early 70's and I know what the Toronto Pro soccer crowd is like, however, soccer is not hockey here in Toronto, if you put a shit product on the field year after year people will eventualy go away and once you lose them they aint coming back!

Wagner
09-21-2010, 08:05 PM
That's too bad. Cashzilla was a classic.

Although I'm a bit surprised -- you can't squeeze out $500 in a year? Dude that's less than $10 a week -- the price of a few Starbucks each week.

dude,

you never know someone's personal situation...

you don't think he would if he could?

rocker
09-21-2010, 08:07 PM
dude,

you never know someone's personal situation...

you don't think he would if he could?

His personal financial situation has nothing to do with whether the tickets are generally affordable or not. So it's unfortunate for him, but not a problem TFC should be worried about. But Cash made no such argument. Others will, I'm sure.

Cashcleaner
09-21-2010, 08:11 PM
Cashzilla...
any talk of the forced MLS Cup tix??

kind of sad...how they copied your look for a lot of the promo stuff...
and now you might be priced out.

F them.

Yeah, we talked about that as well. I told him straight-up that Toronto's chances of getting to the MLS Cup next year is slim-to-none, and I don't particularly feel like paying up-front for tickets to a game I'm not likely to watch.


My anger has really biq turned to sadness....that all our efforts and support over the past few years has come down to this...being priced out of the club. Who would've thought that on the day we celebrated Danny's first goal at BMO?

You see the Red Patch Boys, U-Sector, and other fans plastered all over the TFC website. You see us on TV. You see us on billboards. The people used to promote this club are the ones taking the biggest hit in 2011. Utterly shameful.


That's too bad. Cashzilla was a classic.

Although I'm a bit surprised -- you can't squeeze out $500 in a year? Dude that's less than $10 a week -- the price of a few Starbucks each week.

If - as Attfield pointed out - Toronto had a payment plan like Chicago's where you can make equal payments over the course of several months, it wouldn't be such a blow. I'm not sure how many others know this, but most MLS teams have a better payment plan than TFC.

Ponying up 25% in four increments is not conducive to my bank account. $500 paid to the coffers of MLSE is $500 dollars I can spend on my daughter instead. Maybe Wonderland Season Tickets is a better investment...

ExiledRed
09-21-2010, 08:17 PM
That's too bad. Cashzilla was a classic.

Although I'm a bit surprised -- you can't squeeze out $500 in a year? Dude that's less than $10 a week -- the price of a few Starbucks each week.

I really hate this kind of condescension from people who claim to have money.

When you have small kids on a low income, you dont divide your annual expenses up into weekly installments. If you did that for everything you'd soon learn that you're living beyond your means.

If MLSE would accept 52 weekly installments of $10, I'm pretty sure we'd all find the $10, but finding an extra $200 a month over the seasonal period is rarely easy.

I'm expecting the next response to be something like ....'well if you're too poor to...'

I wouldnt recommend that response.

wzhxvy
09-21-2010, 08:23 PM
From my perspective its not about $500 and whether people can afford it or not. That is a personal decision on how people wish to choose their limited funds.

I think the real issue that most people who bought tickets early, took a risk on a team that many thought would fail. And now their loyalty is being rewarded by constant price increases every year...with the clear objective to make those seats close to $750 very soon. At least thats my opionion.

On a relative basis to the other prices in the stadium, supporter seats are cheap and MLSE is not going to allow someone to get value for their money...so this will only get worse.

Chevy
09-21-2010, 08:42 PM
^^ Value is the key word here. "Great Value" is another way of saying "Lower Profit".

Bombonera
09-21-2010, 08:43 PM
BOYCOTT THE MLS CUP!

SCREW MLSE!!!!

Hitcho
09-21-2010, 08:50 PM
My anger has really biq turned to sadness....that all our efforts and support over the past few years has come down to this...being priced out of the club. Who would've thought that on the day we celebrated Danny's first goal at BMO?

Bingo. Anger turning into sadness at the state everything is in - the league position, the ticket prices, the squad balance, the coaching position, the constant revolving doors for players and staff, the mood among the fan base...

It's really quite tragic what MLSE has done with the shiny, exciting new venture they unearthed in 2006/7.

Cashcleaner
09-21-2010, 08:55 PM
^ I gotta admit, for me it's still mostly anger.

Alonso
09-21-2010, 10:29 PM
Why don't you explain it to me?

I find it fascinating that people in the south end value themselves so highly.
"It's all ruined IF I CANNOT ATTEND!" Well, if you cannot attend, it doesn't matter then right? You'll be doing other things while the rest of us are watching TFC.

I also find it fascinating that people in the south end can't afford $20 a game. The "upward spiral" argument is irrelevant for 2011 tickets. If you cannot afford $20 a game you got bigger problems.

Some people come from a long way out, for me it costs me $30 in fuel for my truck, $10 for parking, $55 for the ticket, $30 in concessions = $125/game = $2,250

It's not just the $20 dollar ticket for many of us, and if the ticket isn't priced low it pushes those of us commuting from out of town out of the picture.

Super
09-21-2010, 10:34 PM
I'd hate to completely give up on this club, and I hope that others do not feel the same way. Yes, a message should be given to the club, but quite frankly it's more likely to come from casual fans who sit in the more expensive seats. Trust me, no MLSE exec will care one bit if one of us give up our cheap seats (and I don't want to give up my south-end ticket just for a scalper to grab it up). It's when the red seats aren't sold out that MLSE will start to worry.. And this is happening. Hopefully it will inspire change from the very top - and they will understand that they need to run the club in a different way.

Roogsy
09-21-2010, 11:17 PM
From my perspective its not about $500 and whether people can afford it or not. That is a personal decision on how people wish to choose their limited funds.

I think the real issue that most people who bought tickets early, took a risk on a team that many thought would fail. And now their loyalty is being rewarded by constant price increases every year...with the clear objective to make those seats close to $750 very soon. At least thats my opionion.

On a relative basis to the other prices in the stadium, supporter seats are cheap and MLSE is not going to allow someone to get value for their money...so this will only get worse.


This!

The whole argument of "dude, $500 is cheap I can't believe you can't afford it" is pathetic. You know what? I drop more on a nice dinner with my wife than it costs me to renew my seat in the south end. Yes, I can afford it, but just because I can afford it doesn't mean TFC should intentionally try to screw me out of it. Tickets in MLS should be comparable to others in the league and higher priced tickets should be found on teams that are actually successful.

Anselmi's whole argument of why ticket prices are justifed at these levels is the whole "supply and demand" argument. Well...until he gets a lesson in "don't look a gifthorse in the mouth", he won't learn. So this isn't about whether I can afford $500, this is about me telling Anselmi his arrogant attitude of "we are going to charge our fans every stinking penny we can" is over and that we are going to give him a lesson first-hand about his beloved supply and demand theory because us fans have been living it for 2 years. Supply and demand? They've forced us to buy more tickets than we have to and made us have to decide whether being in this arrangement is worth it anymore. What we do know is that there is MUCH less demand for tickets than Anselmi thinks there is from up there in the ivory tower, he's just managed to squeeze as much cash from the dedicated fans whose love for the team has made them step up and support the system. Well that dedication is wavering and that apparent demand is going to come down crumbling before his eyes. And then we'll see if he steps up to the mike again and admits that the significant decline in ticket renewals was also due to a lack of demand over supply, mostly done by his own doing.

Cashcleaner
09-22-2010, 06:58 AM
Why don't you explain it to me?

I find it fascinating that people in the south end value themselves so highly.
"It's all ruined IF I CANNOT ATTEND!" Well, if you cannot attend, it doesn't matter then right? You'll be doing other things while the rest of us are watching TFC.

I also find it fascinating that people in the south end can't afford $20 a game. The "upward spiral" argument is irrelevant for 2011 tickets. If you cannot afford $20 a game you got bigger problems.

I find it fascinating that you believe you know everything there is to know about people's personal finances and economic situations.

You must be like the Amazing Kreskin or something. It's really quite impressive.

H Bomb
09-22-2010, 07:13 AM
well said Cash. Rocker, what the fuck's wrong with you dude?

Blue Ball
09-22-2010, 07:36 AM
Has anyone actually tried to split up their tickets to renew only partially on account manager? Mine won't let me.

menefreghista
09-22-2010, 07:38 AM
Has anyone actually tried to split up their tickets to renew only partially on account manager? Mine won't let me.

I think you have to contact your account rep to do that.

flatpicker
09-22-2010, 07:54 AM
This!

The whole argument of "dude, $500 is cheap I can't believe you can't afford it" is pathetic. You know what? I drop more on a nice dinner with my wife than it costs me to renew my seat in the south end. Yes, I can afford it, but just because I can afford it doesn't mean TFC should intentionally try to screw me out of it. Tickets in MLS should be comparable to others in the league and higher priced tickets should be found on teams that are actually successful.

Anselmi's whole argument of why ticket prices are justifed at these levels is the whole "supply and demand" argument. Well...until he gets a lesson in "don't look a gifthorse in the mouth", he won't learn. So this isn't about whether I can afford $500, this is about me telling Anselmi his arrogant attitude of "we are going to charge our fans every stinking penny we can" is over and that we are going to give him a lesson first-hand about his beloved supply and demand theory because us fans have been living it for 2 years. Supply and demand? They've forced us to buy more tickets than we have to and made us have to decide whether being in this arrangement is worth it anymore. What we do know is that there is MUCH less demand for tickets than Anselmi thinks there is from up there in the ivory tower, he's just managed to squeeze as much cash from the dedicated fans whose love for the team has made them step up and support the system. Well that dedication is wavering and that apparent demand is going to come down crumbling before his eyes. And then we'll see if he steps up to the mike again and admits that the significant decline in ticket renewals was also due to a lack of demand over supply, mostly done by his own doing.

Yup... that whole "supply and demand" comment really pissed me off.
It is such a Scrooge thing to say.
In three simple words he has made it clear that he does not care about the fans that have been here since year one.
He does not believe in loyalty, respect, or being appreciative of the support from Toronto fans.
He does not see us... he sees dollar signs.
Business is one thing... but greed is another.

Oblio2
09-22-2010, 07:55 AM
This!

The whole argument of "dude, $500 is cheap I can't believe you can't afford it" is pathetic. You know what? I drop more on a nice dinner with my wife than it costs me to renew my seat in the south end. Yes, I can afford it, but just because I can afford it doesn't mean TFC should intentionally try to screw me out of it. Tickets in MLS should be comparable to others in the league and higher priced tickets should be found on teams that are actually successful.

Anselmi's whole argument of why ticket prices are justifed at these levels is the whole "supply and demand" argument. Well...until he gets a lesson in "don't look a gifthorse in the mouth", he won't learn. So this isn't about whether I can afford $500, this is about me telling Anselmi his arrogant attitude of "we are going to charge our fans every stinking penny we can" is over and that we are going to give him a lesson first-hand about his beloved supply and demand theory because us fans have been living it for 2 years. Supply and demand? They've forced us to buy more tickets than we have to and made us have to decide whether being in this arrangement is worth it anymore. What we do know is that there is MUCH less demand for tickets than Anselmi thinks there is from up there in the ivory tower, he's just managed to squeeze as much cash from the dedicated fans whose love for the team has made them step up and support the system. Well that dedication is wavering and that apparent demand is going to come down crumbling before his eyes. And then we'll see if he steps up to the mike again and admits that the significant decline in ticket renewals was also due to a lack of demand over supply, mostly done by his own doing.


:flare:

Well Said Sir.

lips
09-22-2010, 07:58 AM
2300.00 To renew my seats:(. I think I’m going to down grade them but I’m in accessible seating will I be able to move to the top of the south end not sure how that works.

NF-FC
09-22-2010, 08:08 AM
Remember the good old days, when everyone exclaimed "I'm not a Leafs fan, they will never push me around like that. Besides, we(supporters)are too important to the team anyway, they wouldn't dare!"

The line in the sand has been drawn. Do you pony up for failure or move your soccer dollars elsewhere?

For anyone like Cash, you could pay $500 for a single south end season ticket, or you could get season tickets for the whole family at any CSL club and still have a couple hundred bucks leftover. Living in Toronto, there are enough clubs that you can choose which one you like the most instead of being stuck with a monopoly of perennial ineptitude. As an added bonus, you actually get to see players that put forth effort!

I know this sounds like a blatant add for the CSL, but if you do not want to spend ridiculous sums of money, the option is there. Check out your local side, the season is drawing to an end and the title chase is epic right now. If you like what you see plop down the big $70-$100 next spring.

Cheers,
Alex

maninb
09-22-2010, 08:16 AM
Just a note to Cashcleaner....the tix to the MLS Cup are FOR THIS YEAR...not 2011...perhaps you just made a typo...Cheers

ManUtd4ever
09-22-2010, 08:21 AM
If it's just "soccer" I am interested in, I will stay at home on Saturdays and watch hours of EPL, Liga and Seria A thank you very much.


Exactly - anyone who thinks that the crown atmoshpere doesn't add to the gameday experience hasn't been to a leafs game in while...

The quality of the soccer is poor. There is no arguing that. However, the ability to support a local team, going to the stadium and watching live soccer is what TFC/MLS is all about to me... Take away the experience and I'll just watch epl on tv


This is the part that I agree with the most. Although I don't believe a 20% drop was necessary, a symbolic gesture such as a 1% drop across the board would have sent a clear message of considering the fan who has been there from the start and endured 4 years or BRUTAL soccer culminating with this year's puke-worthy product on the pitch. And you know what? They would have generated so much goodwill for that simple and pretty meaningless gesture that most of these conversations probably wouldn't be happening.

Instead, they are threatening to piss off people who once they give up tickets, won't ever sign up again. And let's be honest here, this isn't the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's not like this team has generations of supporters behind it and a culture in this city that would never let it die. If at any point it becomes irrelevant with fans or the media, the effort to bring it back to where it was at the start will be so great, they will be kicking themselves for having ruined it in the first place.

I get that TFC is mostly run by novices in various positions. But you'd think that they'd learn from the mistakes of others. You don't mess with what works. And these guys had something that "worked" pretty much land in their laps from year 1 and from then on decided to make each consecutive year worse and even more distressing is that they are oblivious to it.


From my perspective its not about $500 and whether people can afford it or not. That is a personal decision on how people wish to choose their limited funds.

I think the real issue that most people who bought tickets early, took a risk on a team that many thought would fail. And now their loyalty is being rewarded by constant price increases every year...with the clear objective to make those seats close to $750 very soon. At least thats my opionion.

On a relative basis to the other prices in the stadium, supporter seats are cheap and MLSE is not going to allow someone to get value for their money...so this will only get worse.

QFT on all accounts!

Globetrotter
09-22-2010, 08:22 AM
I'm sure you all know, but this is how scalpers get their tickets. You're all giving up yours and they'll scoop them up. When it comes time that TFC get their act together and are winning, you won't have your seats and then you'll really be complaining about the price you have to pay to get in the stadium.

menefreghista
09-22-2010, 08:30 AM
I'm sure you all know, but this is how scalpers get their tickets. You're all giving up yours and they'll scoop them up. When it comes time that TFC get their act together and are winning, you won't have your seats and then you'll really be complaining about the price you have to pay to get in the stadium.

Considering the way scalpers are acting outside the stadium these days they will probably be dropping tickets just like we are.

Besides, studies show that once people stop supporting a sport team its harder to get them back again. This is the fire that MLSE is playing with.

Cashcleaner
09-22-2010, 08:31 AM
Just a note to Cashcleaner....the tix to the MLS Cup are FOR THIS YEAR...not 2011...perhaps you just made a typo...Cheers

Oh crap. Now I gotta recheck all my recent posts. Yeah, I know the MLS Cup was for 2010, but should clarify it more if there is some confusion.

Beach_Red
09-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Yup... that whole "supply and demand" comment really pissed me off.
It is such a Scrooge thing to say.
In three simple words he has made it clear that he does not care about the fans that have been here since year one.
He does not believe in loyalty, respect, or being appreciative of the support from Toronto fans.
He does not see us... he sees dollar signs.
Business is one thing... but greed is another.

Is there a difference? I like the line in the ad for the new version of Wall Street when Michael Douglas says, "I once said greed was good, now it's even legal."

Maybe the problem is that MLSE isn't greedy enough - they don't seem to mind not making any playoff money in three sports.

Or, if they mind, the only thing they can think to do about it is to charge more for the games that are scheduled.

Like people have been saying, they are capitalizing on demand that existed before they came along and it looks like they're doing their best to reduce that demand as much as possible. So, the supply that they do control will become less valuable. But they'll have squeeszed out as much profit as possible in the short term.

Sounds about right these days.

flatpicker
09-22-2010, 09:32 AM
Is there a difference? I like the line in the ad for the new version of Wall Street when Michael Douglas says, "I once said greed was good, now it's even legal."...


The difference between business and greed is marginal I suppose.
I guess what it boils down to is ethics.
Who do you step on during your business venture?
Who do you hurt, who do you use, who are you taking advantage of?

Roogsy
09-22-2010, 09:36 AM
To me this isn't even about greed. They can be as greedy as they want, but they have stepped over into the land of the stupid.

Be greedy, I don't care. But don't damage your product. That's exactly what they are doing. It's caused by their greed yes, but it has become stupidity.

Section 117
09-22-2010, 09:46 AM
Just to argue the opposite side for a second. If anyone of owns a business would you not do the same thing? MLSE is a business first and foremost, they are there to make a profit nothing else period anyone who thinks otherwise is smoking crazy shit.

That being said they (MLSE) spend money on the squad we have 2 DP's whether they merit the salary is completely different arguement. I believe that if we were winning this would not even be a discussion. I for one decide when I bought my tickets in year 1 that the team has 5 years to be competitive. Year 4 is almost done and it looks as if we are regressing. Netx year at this time I will decide if I will be keeping my seats. I love the squad, I love the atmosphere I will not give up yet.

MLSE wants to continue to jack up my prices no problem.I look at my situation and I spend a lot of my discrectionary income on MLSE related business.I will not buy anything in BMO, I will not buy any gear and I will boycott Real Sports bar, ACC, leafs, Raptors etc,...

Wagner
09-22-2010, 09:50 AM
Just to argue the opposite side for a second. If anyone of owns a business would you not do the same thing? MLSE is a business first and foremost, they are there to make a profit nothing else period anyone who thinks otherwise is smoking crazy shit.

That being said they (MLSE) spend money on the squad we have 2 DP's whether they merit the salary is completely different arguement. I believe that if we were winning this would not even be a discussion. I for one decide when I bought my tickets in year 1 that the team has 5 years to be competitive. Year 4 is almost done and it looks as if we are regressing. Netx year at this time I will decide if I will be keeping my seats. I love the squad, I love the atmosphere I will not give up yet.

MLSE wants to continue to jack up my prices no problem.I look at my situation and I spend a lot of my discrectionary income on MLSE related business.I will not buy anything in BMO, I will not buy any gear and I will boycott Real Sports bar, ACC, leafs, Raptors etc,...

Boom, that's it right there.
they have no right to act like they are a winning club.
the product is garbage...currently, the fans are the show...and they are squeezing them for every drop.

Roogsy
09-22-2010, 09:52 AM
Just to argue the opposite side for a second. If anyone of owns a business would you not do the same thing? MLSE is a business first and foremost, they are there to make a profit nothing else period anyone who thinks otherwise is smoking crazy shit.

Nope. I run a business and I certainly don't run it this way. I reward my loyal clients, the ones that have been with me from the beginning with superior service and price breaks. Of course I run things to make money, but I also run things to make sure my business is bulletproof from competition. The difference being of course that I do have competition and MLSE does not. That's why they behave this way. Otherwise, the way they currently run their business would not stand the test of competition, I am 100% sure of it. The advantage that they have is that they have a monopoly on the sports entertainment in this city and so run it like they could care less about their consumers. Otherwise, to call them smart business people would be a falsehood.

I hope one day there is competition for MLSE and they have to try to win customers for once as opposed to having them land in their laps. Then we will see how good they are at actually winning business as opposed to being able to force it from people.

J .
09-22-2010, 09:59 AM
They want to price the the supporters out. Ive said that since day one.

I love how Assalami said comparing TFC and Man U wasnt fair, yah a) they have World Class Talent b) They win

Oblio2
09-22-2010, 10:07 AM
Remember the good old days, when everyone exclaimed "I'm not a Leafs fan, they will never push me around like that. Besides, we(supporters)are too important to the team anyway, they wouldn't dare!"

The line in the sand has been drawn. Do you pony up for failure or move your soccer dollars elsewhere?

For anyone like Cash, you could pay $500 for a single south end season ticket, or you could get season tickets for the whole family at any CSL club and still have a couple hundred bucks leftover. Living in Toronto, there are enough clubs that you can choose which one you like the most instead of being stuck with a monopoly of perennial ineptitude. As an added bonus, you actually get to see players that put forth effort!

I know this sounds like a blatant add for the CSL, but if you do not want to spend ridiculous sums of money, the option is there. Check out your local side, the season is drawing to an end and the title chase is epic right now. If you like what you see plop down the big $70-$100 next spring.

Cheers,
Alex


I wish there was a team near me in the East End.....

Beach_Red
09-22-2010, 10:10 AM
Just to argue the opposite side for a second. If anyone of owns a business would you not do the same thing? MLSE is a business first and foremost, they are there to make a profit nothing else period anyone who thinks otherwise is smoking crazy shit.




Yes, like everone else is saying, there's nothing wrong with profit. It's odd that MLSE have made about a hundred million dollars less profit the last 5-6 years than they would have if their teams had even been just average and simply made the playoffs.

This must be the easiest boardroom in the country to work with. "Are you maximizing profits?" "No, but we're doing okay." "Okay, good enough."

But we could see it from the very beginning. They get an expansion franchise and they hand the whole thing over to a guy with less than one year's experience. They probably require more experience from the people they hire to sell beer.

People keep telling me this organization is so smart but I just don't see it.

reggie
09-22-2010, 10:11 AM
my advice to people in the south end hang in there,your tickets will be the first to be gobbled up..im looking for a pair in the south end and i will get them since im in the top group for relocation.im giving them 1 more year,afterall mo and pricky(YOU FUCKER I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR THAT PANAMA GAME) are gone.

Jarrek
09-22-2010, 10:20 AM
Relocating three in 220 to the South End. Hopefully there will be some available.

ExiledRed
09-22-2010, 10:26 AM
His personal financial situation has nothing to do with whether the tickets are generally affordable or not. So it's unfortunate for him, but not a problem TFC should be worried about. But Cash made no such argument. Others will, I'm sure.

I'm all right Jack!

Cant afford it? hahahahahahahaha stupid poor people!

Easy solution! don't be poor. I'm not why should anybody else be?

BMO's better off without the peasants anyway.

maninb
09-22-2010, 10:32 AM
I'm sure you all know, but this is how scalpers get their tickets. You're all giving up yours and they'll scoop them up. When it comes time that TFC get their act together and are winning, you won't have your seats and then you'll really be complaining about the price you have to pay to get in the stadium.

Scalpers WON'T be buying up any of the more expensive seats...that's for certain..they took a bath on most games this year, and with demand falling probably 25-35% they'll not risk it....the Supporters Sections will be bought up by people moving from other more expensive sections...

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 10:39 AM
BMO's better off without the peasants anyway.

If Premiership clubs had turned their backs on the working class 4 years into their existence, there wouldn't be a Premiership today....

Beach_Red
09-22-2010, 10:50 AM
If Premiership clubs had turned their backs on the working class 4 years into their existence, there wouldn't be a Premiership today....

That's an interesting point. The problem we have here is that the Maple Leafs did turn their backs on the working class and it's worked out okay for them.

Funny, though, the tickets with the least demand at BMO now are the most expensive ones and there are now ads on TV trying to sell corporate boxes for the Leafs and Raptors so it sure looks like this attempt to move to more expensive customers might not continue to work.

It will be very funny to watch MLSE come back, hat in hand, trying to win back supporters.

Phil
09-22-2010, 10:52 AM
If Premiership clubs had turned their backs on the working class 4 years into their existence, there wouldn't be a Premiership today....

Just to put apples to apples on that, when premiership teams focused on the the working class they had the ability to cram lots more people in.

Economics changed with the seating, but your point still has value in my mind.

ExiledRed
09-22-2010, 10:56 AM
If Premiership clubs had turned their backs on the working class 4 years into their existence, there wouldn't be a Premiership today....

I hope you didnt take my post as anything but sarcasm, I'm more than aware of the fact that the working class made most premiership soccer teams as succesful as they are.

wzhxvy
09-22-2010, 10:56 AM
I dont agree that MLSE is being run like a business...at least not a well run business. Its being run like a corporation with a bunch of employees aka non owners making short sighted decisions because they get rewarded for YOY growth, and not absolute profit. It actually hurts them to do exceptionally well in one year ie make the playoffs and go on a run...because while they get paid handsomely that one year, it sets much higher expectations for the following year which they likely cant deliver. This is one of the advantages of private and closely held businesses because those guys care about profit and less so about YOY revenue growth.

What bugs me personally is that there is an element of arrogance that irritates me about these yahoos. I really want this club to succeed but their attitudes makes me want it to fail to show them how truly ignorant they are.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 11:03 AM
I hope you didnt take my post as anything but sarcasm, I'm more than aware of the fact that the working class made most premiership soccer teams as succesful as they are.

I was agreeing with you and furthering your point ;)

Section 117
09-22-2010, 11:06 AM
I hope you didnt take my post as anything but sarcasm, I'm more than aware of the fact that the working class made most premiership soccer teams as succesful as they are.

Agreed, but I was at Stamford bridge last year and let me tell you that it is not for the working class anymore and from what I was told by a couple of people is that the big 4/5 are pricing the working class out of games

H Bomb
09-22-2010, 11:06 AM
Just to put apples to apples on that, when premiership teams focused on the the working class they had the ability to cram lots more people in.

Economics changed with the seating, but your point still has value in my mind.


Premier league started after manditory all seater stadiums in england. just sayin. People seem to think Premier league stadiums are like NFL. nothing close, 5-6 big stadiums, but most are between 25-32 thousand

H Bomb
09-22-2010, 11:07 AM
Agreed, but I was at Stamford bridge last year and let me tell you that it is not for the working class anymore and from what I was told by a couple of people is that the big 4/5 are pricing the working class out of games


yeah but you need to understand region for this. Chelsea is rich, a lot of the people in Chelsea are richer than others. Fulham is the commoners club in the area, and while not super cheap, they are cheaper than Chelsea. If there was a poor persons football club in Toronto i could watch I'd be there in a second.

222Westside
09-22-2010, 11:09 AM
I'll be downgrading.. My seats in 222 have gone up 8% to over 3100.00 for the season... That's just crazy.

Beach_Red
09-22-2010, 11:11 AM
yeah but you need to understand region for this. Chelsea is rich, a lot of the people in Chelsea are richer than others. Fulham is the commoners club in the area, and while not super cheap, they are cheaper than Chelsea. If there was a poor persons football club in Toronto i could watch I'd be there in a second.


Good point, but it's unlikely any ownership would think there's a market for a poor persons club. They can't give away tickets to the Marlies, which would be what they see as a poor persons club.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 11:14 AM
Just to put apples to apples on that, when premiership teams focused on the the working class they had the ability to cram lots more people in.

Economics changed with the seating, but your point still has value in my mind.

Lots of things have changed so it's impossible to make an honest comparison, but when they had terraces that could be packed the games weren't on TV either...they were turning people away at the gate, but didn't use that as an excuse (or reason) to jack up the prices. They understood that making their product as affordable as possible for the most number of people would guarantee their long terms success...raising ticket prices would have made them more money (short term anyway) but it would have also driven away half their fan base. It was better to have people competing for cheap tickets than to gouge the small number of people who could afford it.

In early days, the growth of the game depended on that philosophy. In Leeds (for example :D) there was rugby and cricket to compete with, so having the widest possible fan base was far more important than short term profits. The team wouldn't have lasted 10 years if it chose to cash in on a small minority of fans.

P-NUTZ
09-22-2010, 11:15 AM
mlse are pigs that rape me with irreverence and greed.
They can make money - even when they lose money.
To charge me now for for two group stage CONCACACF games next year - assuming TFC make it - is like stealing my money, making interest off it - and essentially actually giving me nothing yet in return because if tfc dont make it, they will "credit" my account, therefore never missing a penny.

I hate those pigs and how they dont even give you a free tshirt for your floundered investment over the years.

No other company i know has been so easily unapologetic in failure, and blatantly thieving.


barf.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 11:21 AM
yeah but you need to understand region for this. Chelsea is rich, a lot of the people in Chelsea are richer than others. Fulham is the commoners club in the area, and while not super cheap, they are cheaper than Chelsea. If there was a poor persons football club in Toronto i could watch I'd be there in a second.

Chelsea are a pretty unique example, a small-ish club being bought by a billionaire who's spent like mad etc. at a time when the neighbourhood itself has become wealthy. Fulham and QPR have both benefitted from Chelsea's decision to go posh.

An average working person can still get an affordable ticket to 'big clubs' like Spurs etc.

Kevvv
09-22-2010, 11:22 AM
They want to price the the supporters out. Ive said that since day one.



Then they're doing a poor job of it.


Supporters seats are $20, red seats are over $70 per game, dark greys over $50.

Technorgasm
09-22-2010, 11:24 AM
yeah but you need to understand region for this. Chelsea is rich, a lot of the people in Chelsea are richer than others. Fulham is the commoners club in the area, and while not super cheap, they are cheaper than Chelsea. If there was a poor persons football club in Toronto i could watch I'd be there in a second.

CSL MAtty. . . I'll be watching a lot of games next year.

Still cant get over the media, fans ect surprise at the prices.
RESULTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU PAY!!!
this ios MLSE one of the most successful sports ownership groups on teh freakin planet.
how ANYONE is takenn aback by this and think anything they do or say willeffect it is beyond me. I was expecting this.

Why in their right fucking mind would MLSE NOT charge more?
In my own business if I could charge more.. god damn right I would.
If you dont renew. fine there are others to replace you.
the commercfial interests of the club will always be more important then what goes on the field or what you, joe 6 pack think.

$20 - $50 for a day out at the park is not a lot to pay.

DEAL WITH IT.

Suds
09-22-2010, 11:27 AM
Then they're doing a poor job of it.


Supporters seats are $20, red seats are over $70 per game, dark greys over $50.

actually they're $60 & $66 per game (apparently there are premium teams to watch on the MLS) ... but your point is well taken, those people are pay 3 times as much to watch the same shit!

Gixmo
09-22-2010, 11:31 AM
I will only be renewing on a single, full season ride if I can get it at the price I want.. Otherwise the ticket exchange is a worthwhile cause!

Jack
09-22-2010, 11:31 AM
I am more pissed about the mandatory inclusion of the MLS Cup than about the very minor price increase.

$20 per game per ticket isn't that bad. But why am I forced to buy the cup tickets? What does that have to do with the 2011 Season for TFC? It's not like TFC will be anywhere near the damn thing.

Stop marketing atmosphere and start putting a god damn team on the field that can play and you'll sell out the MLS Cup because you'll be there, you morons!

Kevvv
09-22-2010, 11:32 AM
Chelsea are a pretty unique example, a small-ish club being bought by a billionaire who's spent like mad etc. at a time when the neighbourhood itself has become wealthy. Fulham and QPR have both benefitted from Chelsea's decision to go posh.

An average working person can still get an affordable ticket to 'big clubs' like Spurs etc.

For the most part, I find the English comparison to be meaningless. London clubs compete with each other for fans: if there were two teams instead of 5 (or 6 with QPR), they would have more leeway to raise prices. Here we have a much larger population close to BMO than either Manchester or Liverpool, and no league rival within a 400 mile radius.

Doesn't justify the price we pay, but comparisons to EPL aren't apples to apples

flatpicker
09-22-2010, 11:35 AM
CSL MAtty. . . I'll be watching a lot of games next year.



So how much would it cost to start a USL club in Toronto?
That could be our "poor mans club".
It sure would make things exciting in the city to have a local rival.

Jim Balsillie likes sports, including soccer.
And I'm sure he has no love for MLSE.
Anyone have his phone number?
Maybe he'd like to start a rival club.

Fort York Redcoat
09-22-2010, 11:37 AM
^Yeah it would still be Ballsillie vs MLSE. I can't see that happening. Pick a CSL team and soon it will be a nationwide league. USL is in tatters anyway.

Brooker
09-22-2010, 11:38 AM
our very own version of FCUM!

nfitz
09-22-2010, 11:38 AM
An average working person can still get an affordable ticket to 'big clubs' like Spurs etc.The cheapest seasons there I see are £680 ... though the £280 for seniors and £270 for kids is very impressive. Fulham is more reasonable though, starting at £399 ... or £95 for kids under 17. The clubs also sell away seasons packages ... probably not something we'll see in MLS anytime soon!

Even outside of the football league though, ticket prices are still more than we were paying a couple of years ago. I'm looking at Newport County which is in the Football Conference (5th level) and even their season tickets go for £260.

Mark in Ottawa
09-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Some people come from a long way out, for me it costs me $30 in fuel for my truck, $10 for parking, $55 for the ticket, $30 in concessions = $125/game = $2,250

It's not just the $20 dollar ticket for many of us, and if the ticket isn't priced low it pushes those of us commuting from out of town out of the picture.
I fear this may be the case for many of us "75 Mile Bastards".
The increase in ticket prices along with the other rising costs of attending "from away" (gas, accomodation etc...) coupled with the loss of atmosphere due to a bad on-field product and unhappy supporters around the field means that you start to question the return on your financial investment.

Mark in Ottawa
09-22-2010, 11:59 AM
Scalpers WON'T be buying up any of the more expensive seats...that's for certain..they took a bath on most games this year, and with demand falling probably 25-35% they'll not risk it....the Supporters Sections will be bought up by people moving from other more expensive sections...
You mean the scalpers moving from more expensive seats don't you?

ExiledRed
09-22-2010, 12:07 PM
CSL MAtty. . . I'll be watching a lot of games next year.

Still cant get over the media, fans ect surprise at the prices.
RESULTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU PAY!!!
this ios MLSE one of the most successful sports ownership groups on teh freakin planet.
how ANYONE is takenn aback by this and think anything they do or say willeffect it is beyond me. I was expecting this.

Why in their right fucking mind would MLSE NOT charge more?
In my own business if I could charge more.. god damn right I would.
If you dont renew. fine there are others to replace you.
the commercfial interests of the club will always be more important then what goes on the field or what you, joe 6 pack think.

$20 - $50 for a day out at the park is not a lot to pay.

DEAL WITH IT.

Yes Giles, $20 - $50 a game is no big deal, its just harder to find the money when the total expense includes games we havent qualified for and a cup final we have no chance of reaching.

It's nice that they'll refund the Concacaf games if we dont qualify, its also nice they get to sit on the interest for 8 months, while Im trying to support two kids and keep a business afloat.

Truth is, if we dont qualify (and its 50/50 isnt it?) I'll get that refund as a credit on next years tickets which will also be over inflated, so I wont really feel like I got the money back.

The cup final ticket is getting scalped if there is enough demand.

H Bomb
09-22-2010, 12:14 PM
Well one thing is that payment wont be due by the time the final comes around. 50% will but not all. So we should all take the hit, go to the final, ruin it for everyone (throw paint on field, full frontal nudity camera side, as many streakers as possible), and then just default on the payment for the rest of the tickets.......could be fun ;)

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 12:16 PM
The cheapest seasons there I see are £680 ...

Keep in mind that those prices are relative to their ecconomy, so it's not like £680 there = $1100 here. In relative terms, its something closer to $850 here...which I don't think we'd be complaining about if we were in the (real) Champions League and Dafoe, Dawson, Van Der Vaart, Modric etc. were playing for us.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 12:37 PM
For the most part, I find the English comparison to be meaningless. London clubs compete with each other for fans: if there were two teams instead of 5 (or 6 with QPR), they would have more leeway to raise prices. Here we have a much larger population close to BMO than either Manchester or Liverpool, and no league rival within a 400 mile radius.

Doesn't justify the price we pay, but comparisons to EPL aren't apples to apples

True enough, but I think that its the culture and history of football and its (traditional) fanbase that has helped keep tickets affordable and not because of competition. Leeds is the largest city in Europe that only has one team and the prices there are still reasonable. Even in London where there's at least a dozen teams to chose from there's very little competition for fans as people usually gravitate towards to their local team...if you lived in Hammersmith you might have to chose between QPR and Fulham, but the odds of you becoming a Millwall fan are very, very low.

TFC Cityboy
09-22-2010, 12:42 PM
I am more pissed about the mandatory inclusion of the MLS Cup than about the very minor price increase.

$20 per game per ticket isn't that bad. But why am I forced to buy the cup tickets? What does that have to do with the 2011 Season for TFC? It's not like TFC will be anywhere near the damn thing.

Stop marketing atmosphere and start putting a god damn team on the field that can play and you'll sell out the MLS Cup because you'll be there, you morons!

spot on, Jack. I totally get the fact we are getting more matches for 2011 but don't friggin make me buy tickets to 2 clubs I either dislike or don't give a shit about.

nfitz
09-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Keep in mind that those prices are relative to their ecconomy, so it's not like £680 there = $1100 here. In relative terms, its something closer to $850 here...which I don't think we'd be complaining about if we were in the (real) Champions League and Dafoe, Dawson, Van Der Vaart, Modric etc. were playing for us.Uh ... no, I think you've got it backwards ...

Salaries are lower there than here. Housing is more expensive (though they've been a lot harder in house prices in the last 2 years than we have - but that's short-term).

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 01:15 PM
Uh ... no, I think you've got it backwards ...

Salaries are lower there than here. Housing is more expensive (though they've been a lot harder in house prices in the last 2 years than we have - but that's short-term).

I'm talking about each cost relative to its own ecconomy. The exchange rate is 40%, but the cost of living isn't 40% higher. So based on straight exchange those £680 are worth $1100 Canadian, but the relative cost for someone in London to buy those tickets is closer (in our terms) to $850 Canadian.

£680 is "x" percent of the average salary in England
and in Canada "x" is $850.

Robin
09-22-2010, 01:28 PM
Rather than drop tickets, there is another solution. Look for partners to share your tickets with. I'm talking to two people right now to share my tickets. I'll see fewer games, but I'll save a lot of money. That's my solution.

nfitz
09-22-2010, 01:31 PM
I'm talking about each cost relative to its own ecconomy. The exchange rate is 40%, but the cost of living isn't 40% higher. So based on straight exchange those £680 are worth $1100 Canadian, but the relative cost for someone in London to buy those tickets is closer (in our terms) to $850 Canadian.

£680 is "x" percent of the average salary in England
and in Canada "x" is $850.Salary in England is lower than here, AFTER you account for the exchange rate. Even minimum wage is lower there, where it's only about £5.80 an hour for someone over 22 - which would be only $9.40 here. For someone 18-21 it's only £4.83 which is only $7.80 ... and also why you see so many young people working in stores, etc.

And it get's worse as you get older ... I've always been surprised at how low professional salaries were in the UK when I've looked at jobs, even when the pound was higher.

Toronto Ruffrider
09-22-2010, 01:31 PM
MLSE is such a lazy organisation. Rather than properly marketing its tickets - something it should have done from Day 1 - it relies on putting all tickets into one convenient package for ticket sales. This approach has been evident in the walk-up crowds this year. When only 5,000-or-so tickets are available for single-game purchases, the vast majority of matches should sell out. Instead, we've seen matches in which less than half of single-game tickets sold out, which is pretty pathetic if there is any validity to TFC's 20,000-person SSH waiting list.

I find it fascinating that MLSE plans to raise the number of season tickets to 18,000 for two reasons. First, this is the only way that the club will sell more tickets, what with the lacklustre walk-up crowds. Second, I love the fact that the club assumes it will actually sell all 18,000 season tickets. Season ticket prices are on the rise, the resale market is dead, existing subscribers are going to drop tickets, and virtually no one on the waiting list will buy the expensive seats. This is going to blow up in MLSE's face.

Btw, I truly sympathize with all of the SSHs who have to shell out for the MLS Cup. MLSE took the model for the All Season Sports Pack and applied it to full season ticket holders.

Kevvv
09-22-2010, 01:58 PM
True enough, but I think that its the culture and history of football and its (traditional) fanbase that has helped keep tickets affordable and not because of competition. Leeds is the largest city in Europe that only has one team and the prices there are still reasonable. Even in London where there's at least a dozen teams to chose from there's very little competition for fans as people usually gravitate towards to their local team...if you lived in Hammersmith you might have to chose between QPR and Fulham, but the odds of you becoming a Millwall fan are very, very low.

My point with London was that if there were fewer teams, your 'local' team would have a much larger fanbase available to fill its seats.

Question: Where do Championship & League 1 teams get their money? EPL has the huge TV deals, how much do they see in lower levels? From the some of the numbers we've been told, I can't imagine TFC gets much, so they rely on bums in seats, merch, and concessions more than EPL and probably more than Championship as well.

Roogsy
09-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Rather than drop tickets, there is another solution. Look for partners to share your tickets with. I'm talking to two people right now to share my tickets. I'll see fewer games, but I'll save a lot of money. That's my solution.



I just did.


Two friends that WERE season tickets holders last year have dropped tickets and have now picked up half of my seasons each. So that is 2 less STH for TFC.

Well done TFC. Guys that were certain to renew are now out for sure. That's some great "business" you are doing over there. :rolleyes:

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 02:08 PM
Salary in England is lower than here, AFTER you account for the exchange rate. Even minimum wage is lower there, where it's only about £5.80 an hour for someone over 22 - which would be only $9.40 here. For someone 18-21 it's only £4.83 which is only $7.80 ... and also why you see so many young people working in stores, etc.

And it get's worse as you get older ... I've always been surprised at how low professional salaries were in the UK when I've looked at jobs, even when the pound was higher.

In 2009, the median wage in London was £33,604, or $54,258.12 CND. In 2010, the median wage in Toronto was $51,235. There's probably not much difference between 2009 and 2010 stats, so a person in London is roughly $3000 (CND) a year ahead of someone in Toronto after exchange.

H Bomb
09-22-2010, 02:09 PM
They've done this thing with complete disregard for one of their major stakeholder groups. They are using this group to advertise as they alienate them completely. Anyone who thinks what they are doing is sound business doesn't know anything about long term business. Sure they'll be fine this year, next too, but if the atmosphere leaves BMO, TFC becomes a financial wasteland. And it'd take more than winning to bring it back. I'm still so amazed at the short sightedness of all this. I remain an embarrassed TFC fan

nfitz
09-22-2010, 02:27 PM
In 2009, the median wage in London was £33,604, or $54,258.12 CND. In 2010, the median wage in Toronto was $51,235. There's probably not much difference between 2009 and 2010 stats, so a person in London is roughly $3000 (CND) a year ahead of someone in Toronto after exchange.The median wage in London isn't £33,604

Look ... I'm English. I'm well aware of what money is worth there, compared to here. And what salaries there are compared to here; they are lower, even accounting for the exchange rate.

Maybe in the City it's thst much ... but that's like looking a few blocks of condos downtown.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 02:36 PM
Question: Where do Championship & League 1 teams get their money? EPL has the huge TV deals, how much do they see in lower levels? From the some of the numbers we've been told, I can't imagine TFC gets much, so they rely on bums in seats, merch, and concessions more than EPL and probably more than Championship as well.

The Championship recently signed a three year £264m tv contract (a joint contract with Sky and the BBC), so about $100m (US) a year. The MLS deal with ESPN is worth $23 million (US) a year, but the individual teams can also negotiate their own broadcast deals (ie TFC with CBC and Goltv). I'm not sure what the sum total of all of those deals are worth, but I think its safe to say that its less than $100m.

At the same time, the cost of running a Championship team is a lot higher than running a MLS team...Championship teams have to pay transfer fees for talent and the average salary is £275,000 (which would make the average player in the Championship a DP in the MLS!).

In terms of a business model, expenses, revenue etc. the MLS is closer to League 1. Salaries in League 1 are about £70,000, there isn't a national tv deal, but you can watch games for a fee after they've been played (like a Rogers-on-Demand type of thing). League 1 teams usually only pay small transfer fees (if any) etc. Basically, it relies on ticket sales, merch etc. for its income.

Beach_Red
09-22-2010, 02:38 PM
MLSE is such a lazy organisation. Rather than properly marketing its tickets - something it should have done from Day 1 - it relies on putting all tickets into one convenient package for ticket sales. This approach has been evident in the walk-up crowds this year. When only 5,000-or-so tickets are available for single-game purchases, the vast majority of matches should sell out. Instead, we've seen matches in which less than half of single-game tickets sold out, which is pretty pathetic if there is any validity to TFC's 20,000-person SSH waiting list.

I find it fascinating that MLSE plans to raise the number of season tickets to 18,000 for two reasons. First, this is the only way that the club will sell more tickets, what with the lacklustre walk-up crowds. Second, I love the fact that the club assumes it will actually sell all 18,000 season tickets. Season ticket prices are on the rise, the resale market is dead, existing subscribers are going to drop tickets, and virtually no one on the waiting list will buy the expensive seats. This is going to blow up in MLSE's face.

Btw, I truly sympathize with all of the SSHs who have to shell out for the MLS Cup. MLSE took the model for the All Season Sports Pack and applied it to full season ticket holders.

I think Ensco is right, they've increased the number of tickets available so when they call people on the waiting list they can say, "Good news! We made more tickets available," instead of having to saying, "A whole bunch of people decided not to renew their tickets so we have some available for you now."

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 02:41 PM
The median wage in London isn't £33,604


That figure comes from the Office of National Statistics, the Toronto wage comes from an article in the Toronto Star.

Edit for clarity: in both cases thats the median wage for full time employees.

ExiledRed
09-22-2010, 02:55 PM
that median wage is inflated by a small percentage of people who earn more money than any individual should be allowed to.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 03:01 PM
that median wage is inflated by a small percentage of people who earn more money than any individual should be allowed to.

The median wage throws out the the people who make the most and the people who make the least...it isn't an average, its the rate that most people in the middle make. It isn't perfect, but (odds are) whatever effects its accuracy in London also effects it in Toronto.

nfitz
09-22-2010, 03:04 PM
That figure comes from the Office of National Statistics, the Toronto wage comes from an article in the Toronto Star.The median wage in London is £33,604? Perhaps some specific part of downtown where there are good jobs perhaps, but that's not the median for the entire city. Do you have the URL? I think you are mis-intepreting somehow.

Jeffro
09-22-2010, 03:13 PM
The median wage in London is £33,604? Perhaps some specific part of downtown where there are good jobs perhaps, but that's not the average for the entire city. Do you have the URL? I think you are mis-intepreting somehow.


No, the median is not the average.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Chevy
09-22-2010, 03:19 PM
Median is typically used for variables like income or housing prices, where some outlying data points (i.e. Tom Anselmi's mega-salary, Preki's Penthouse Condo, lol) will give a less accurate read of the prevailing coinditions.

nfitz
09-22-2010, 03:36 PM
No, the median is not the average.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Sorry ... of course ... 50th percentile, not mean ...

That's £32,604 by my math, not £33,604 ... but still higher than what I'd think.

Hmm ... interesting ... if you compare wages for most jobs it's lower there. Yet median incomes are higher ... and I was looking at family incomes and they are higher as well.

I'm not sure if your Toronto number is comparable. The London number is only for people who are employed with full time jobs. But some other data I've found still suggests it is lower.

Do more people work? Is the quality of jobs better there on average (perhaps more union jobs, and less non-union jobs)? Does London simply have more people with better jobs?

I've always been mystified over there why with lower wages, and higher prices, that the stores always seem full of people spending so much money on things they don't really need. I'd love to understand the difference ...

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 04:02 PM
That's £32,604 by my math, not £33,604 ... but still higher than what I'd think.


I'm trying to find the link that I was looking at before, but it actually said "£33,604" not "£627 per week". Either the "£33,604" is typo or there's something that could account for an exact £1000 difference (something like a tax credit, or stimulous check or something that was issued that year?).

ensco
09-22-2010, 04:03 PM
^UK today is really the tale of two different worlds. There's about 5 million people in London doing well, or very well, from the fact that London is the center of the expat financial world.

Then there's the other 5 million Londoners, and at least 50% of the rest of the UK, who suffer 20%+ unemployment and are utterly dependent on the state.

In between these two groups, is a small, ever-dwindling middle class, probably no more than 10-15% of the total population. These are Mrs Thatcher's shopkeepers. The middle class. An endangered species.

So stats for London, especially central London, are meaningless in terms of "the UK". It's a different world. The only comparable for them is Manhattan. Maybe Hong Kong and Singapore also.

btw that social arrangement, it's probably what the future looks like in North America, in 10-20 years.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 04:06 PM
^UK today is really the tale of two different worlds. There's about 5 million people in London doing well, or very well, from the fact that London is the center of the expat financial world.

Then there's the other 5 million Londoners, and at least 50% of the rest of the UK, who suffer 20%+ unemployment and are utterly dependent on the state.

In between these two groups, is a small, ever-dwindling middle class, probably no more than 10-20% of the total population. These are Mrs Thather's shopkeepers. An endangered species.

It's probably what the future looks like in North America, in 10-20 years.

Or 2-3 years...

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 04:15 PM
So stats for London, especially central London, are meaningless in terms of "the UK". It's a different world. The only comparable for them is Manhattan. Maybe Hong Kong and Singapore also.

They're relevant to the original point because we were talking about the relative cost of a Londoner going to a Spurs game vs a Torontonian going to TFC game. We're not making any broad-based assumptions about the UK, or other living costs in the city...I just made the point that ticket costs shouldn't be measured by exchange rate but rather by the relative cost to the ticket buyer within his own economy.

If compare prices by exchange rate, it makes it seem as if a Spurs ticket is about double the price of a TFC ticket but if you make the calculation based on the relative cost of the ticket buyer it's only about 50% more for a substancially better product.

ensco
09-22-2010, 04:32 PM
If compare prices by exchange rate, it makes it seem as if a Spurs ticket is about double the price of a TFC ticket but if you make the calculation based on the relative cost of the ticket buyer it's only about 50% more for a substancially better product.

I think the reported stats understate it. I go to London every year, I'd say the cost of living there is at least double what it is in Toronto.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 04:42 PM
I think the reported stats understate it. I go to London every year, I'd say the cost of living there is at least double what it is in Toronto.

Maybe true, but not relevant.

A Spurs ticket is £680 is "x" percentage of a Londoner's wage.

"x" percentage of a Torontonian's wage isn't $1100 (£680 converted), it's less than that which is my sole point.

Flipityflu
09-22-2010, 05:08 PM
so, after i turned out the lights last night, i started thinking about why i'm so upset about all this, when it came to me...

i'm an England/Liverpool/Toronto FC supporter. i've just not had anything to smile about.

nfitz
09-22-2010, 05:15 PM
so, after i turned out the lights last night, i started thinking about why i'm so upset about all this, when it came to me...

i'm an England/Liverpool/Toronto FC supporter. i've just not had anything to smile about.You didn't have anything to smile about last night? I'm still grinning ...

ExiledRed
09-22-2010, 05:15 PM
Maybe true, but not relevant.

A Spurs ticket is £680 is "x" percentage of a Londoner's wage.

"x" percentage of a Torontonian's wage isn't $1100 (£680 converted), it's less than that which is my sole point.

Its absolutely relevant. You can change that dollar sign for a pound sign and leave the numbers exactly the same at the gas station for a start. When I first got a minimum wage job in Canada I thought I'd won the lottery given that my money went twice as far.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 05:16 PM
so, after i turned out the lights last night, i started thinking about why i'm so upset about all this, when it came to me...

i'm an England/Liverpool/Toronto FC supporter. i've just not had anything to smile about.

Replace "Liverpool" with "Leeds" and you'll begin to feel my pain....

Kaz
09-22-2010, 05:25 PM
I've spent the last two days looking for a way to remove myself from the waiting list and can't find an option, so I just email the rep to ask with a short concise and polite reasoning. I refuse to buy tickets at this prices and then watch it go up by double digit percentages every year. If and when I go to games I'll do what I did this year.. show up about 2 hours before kick off, and buy a ticket anywhere I want outside of the south end. for the Cruz Azul game I had front row 121 seats. For the Chicago game it was section 101.

as it is you can say he can I get a ticket in such and such a section and you'll get it. I can only make it to 7 games a year for my work schedule so why pay for the others. (I was planning on adjusting my schedule next year, and the later half of this year but the boys have been painful to watch)

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 05:29 PM
Its absolutely relevant. You can change that dollar sign for a pound sign and leave the numbers exactly the same at the gas station for a start. When I first got a minimum wage job in Canada I thought I'd won the lottery given that my money went twice as far.

You're missing the point...it has NOTHING to do with the cost of living anything like that.

The original point that I was argueing was that looking at what a Spurs ticket costs in Canadian dollars and comparing it to what a TFC cost in Canadian dollars isn't an accurate measure of how expensive those tickets are to a Spurs fan in London.

If we want to make an accurate comparison of how expensive a Spurs ticket is to a Londoner and how expensive a TFC ticket is to a Torontonian, then the value of each has to be made based on each of their ecconomies - not based on a straight exchange rate. Get my point?

When making this calculation the cost of food, gas, housing etc. in either country is no more relevant than the cost of food, gas, housing etc. when making a calculation based on the exchange rate.

Flipityflu
09-22-2010, 05:37 PM
You didn't have anything to smile about last night? I'm still grinning ...

i didn't get to see the game last night, and didn't find out the result until this morning.

ensco
09-22-2010, 06:25 PM
You're missing the point...it has NOTHING to do with the cost of living anything like that.

The original point that I was argueing was that looking at what a Spurs ticket costs in Canadian dollars and comparing it to what a TFC cost in Canadian dollars isn't an accurate measure of how expensive those tickets are to a Spurs fan in London.

If we want to make an accurate comparison of how expensive a Spurs ticket is to a Londoner and how expensive a TFC ticket is to a Torontonian, then the value of each has to be made based on each of their ecconomies - not based on a straight exchange rate. Get my point?

When making this calculation the cost of food, gas, housing etc. in either country is no more relevant than the cost of food, gas, housing etc. when making a calculation based on the exchange rate.

This is actually a pretty big debate in academia. One the one hand, what you say is true - domestic prices in domestic currencies are pretty important. One the other hand, with freely floating exchange rates and relatively free trade, which we have had for decades with the UK, prices in both countries should "normalize". This latter view is the position of the Economist, who publish a worldwide survey of the prices of Big Macs in 100 countries, converted to US dollars, every year.

There is no right or wrong answer. Both are valid points of view. I personally think the history of those English clubs, the relative importance of full houses to make the product attractive on TV (where they make most of their money) and the ancient, highly evolved seating/pricing/membership structures over there, are the most important reasons why the comparisons are meaningless.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 09:14 PM
This is actually a pretty big debate in academia. One the one hand, what you say is true - domestic prices in domestic currencies are pretty important. One the other hand, with freely floating exchange rates and relatively free trade, which we have had for decades with the UK, prices in both countries should "normalize". This latter view is the position of the Economist, who publish a worldwide survey of the prices of Big Macs in 100 countries, converted to US dollars, every year.

There is no right or wrong answer. Both are valid points of view.

I'm not sure how I'm not explaining this properly, but your point doesn't relate to the issue at hand.

I'm looking at the cost of a ticket in London vs. the cost of a ticket in Toronto. If we just take the cost of the ticket in London and convert it into Canadian dollars (as was originally done) we're making a judgement of wether or not that's expensive to us, not them. If we look at the cost of a ticket in London in relation to their own economy and look at the cost of a ticket in relation to our economy, we can answer what's at the heart of the matter.

habstfc
09-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Its absolutely relevant. You can change that dollar sign for a pound sign and leave the numbers exactly the same at the gas station for a start. When I first got a minimum wage job in Canada I thought I'd won the lottery given that my money went twice as far.

Spot on.

habstfc
09-22-2010, 10:42 PM
The only thing that is really relevant is that fact that people here (toronto) have more disposable income than the average brit.

CretanBull
09-22-2010, 11:13 PM
The only thing that is really relevant is that fact that people here (toronto) have more disposable income than the average brit.

What does disposable income have to do with the relative cost of something in two different markets? What matters is how much - in relative terms - that thing costs to that person based on how much they earn in that market. The fact that someone else from another country might consider it cheap or expensive based on an exchange rate doesn't reflect its value in the market that it exists in.

What matters more to a Chinese person, the cost of a t-shirt in American dollars by someone who lives in America and earns American dollars, or the cost of a t-shirt based on the money he earns in China?

Saying that a shirt is cheap because it costs $10 US is foolish, because to someone in China $10 US is a lot of money.

If you want to know if t-shirts are cheaper to a Chinese person in China vs. an American in America you can't value the t-shirts in US dollars and make a judgement based on that. You have to know what the cost of the t-shirt is relative to the wage earner in each of those countries.

So to re-state the original point once again...converting the price of a ticket from Pounds to Canadian dollars and making a judegement on how cheap or expensive that is isn't meaningfull. A far more accurate measure of the relative cost of tickets in London vs. Toronto is to measure each the value of each in their own market.

Would it make any difference to you what so ever if someone in England said "You're tickets are cheap, a season ticket only costs £270!"? Of course not because you don't earn pounds! So why on earth would we make judegements about the relative cost of a ticket in England based on Canadian dollars and what we earn here? That's what an arguement based on exchange rate does, the way I've suggested that it be done wieghs the cost of a ticket in London to a Londoner vs. the cost of a ticket in Toronto to a Torontonian. That's - I thought - an obviously better measure of the relative cost.

In short - an absolute number whether its in dollars or Pounds - is meaningless measure of expense without the context of its economy.

the-lower-eastsider
09-23-2010, 12:01 AM
There is no value in having season tickets when I can buy seats whenever I want. I would end up saving money. TFC lives in a fantasy world!!

Only MLSE can manage to take the goodwill and general enthusiasm of a fanbase and bleed it dry in four years.
well said juan

king dave
09-23-2010, 12:06 AM
FUCK YOU!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5013297914_71d7fac113.jpg
KD.

Oldtimer
09-23-2010, 07:34 AM
This is actually a pretty big debate in academia. One the one hand, what you say is true - domestic prices in domestic currencies are pretty important. One the other hand, with freely floating exchange rates and relatively free trade, which we have had for decades with the UK, prices in both countries should "normalize". This latter view is the position of the Economist, who publish a worldwide survey of the prices of Big Macs in 100 countries, converted to US dollars, every year.



Good point. Interestingly, the Big Mac index would only add 15% to the cost of a UK seasons' ticket vs. Canada (4.0/3.48), so it doesn't disturb the overall cost comparison.

http://www.economist.com/node/16646178?story_id=16646178

canadian_bhoy
09-23-2010, 08:00 AM
Looks like I've made up my mind.
Due to costs and the desire not to be totally ripped off by these vultures - I think I'm going to have to split my season ticket next year. Only half the games - but what can you do.

Thanks TFC.


Thanks.

MG42
09-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Looks like I've made up my mind.
Due to costs and the desire not to be totally ripped off by these vultures - I think I'm going to have to split my season ticket next year. Only half the games - but what can you do.

Thanks TFC.


Thanks.

I remember on the old boards how happy people were at the $200 price for the supporters sections...I can't remember who it was but there were some on the board saying that MLSE would screw people eventually with raising the ticket prices out of our range. Some of us actually argued against it thinking that MLSE knew what a great thing they had and even they couldn't screw this up...well September 2010 here we are ladies and gentlemen.

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg "I won an award!"

H Bomb
09-23-2010, 08:45 AM
Perhaps my call a few years ago to stop pretending like these are good people and lessen the relationship with the suits makes more sense now. How does it feel to be treated like a lap dog for years? This has been coming, all the evidence to come out of that office has been towards moments like this, and everyone gets caught up with how nice people are, or how they are straight shooters. They've been using you, and now they're throwing you out. I love the group you guys run, but take charge now, STOP PLAYING BY THEIR TERMS. It's about time we treated the FO the way the FO treats us.

Jack
09-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Looks like I've made up my mind.
Due to costs and the desire not to be totally ripped off by these vultures - I think I'm going to have to split my season ticket next year. Only half the games - but what can you do.

Thanks TFC.


Thanks.

There have it. Way to turn off the Founding President of the largest supporters group.

Way to go, TFC. Way to go MLSE.

Pigfynn
09-23-2010, 09:07 AM
I remember on the old boards how happy people were at the $200 price for the supporters sections...I can't remember who it was but there were some on the board saying that MLSE would screw people eventually with raising the ticket prices out of our range. Some of us actually argued against it thinking that MLSE knew what a great thing they had and even they couldn't screw this up...well September 2010 here we are ladies and gentlemen.

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg "I won an award!"


What pisses me off is that things haven't been good this year (on the field and off) and where do all the warm and fuzzy FO people^^ go???? Not a word from the people that wanted to nurture this support, who fed us lines until you almost believed they gave a shit.

They knew they were bringing the pain at the end of this year with this bullshit jack up and they ^^ just stay away. Nice to know that when things aren't all rosy and everyone stops congratulating each other the powers that be ^^^ have fucked off. Hey, who wants to listen to people (who put you in the lofty spot you're in) complain about how you fucked them eh?

I hope at least some of you up there feel badly for this cash grab. Let me ask you FO people this...When you compare what we, the supporters give you and your bottom line to what we get back from you and what we've seen on that field for 4 years, can you honestly sleep at night believing it's even close to ok? Really?

Fuck you.

pekduck
09-23-2010, 01:08 PM
i won't drop mine,

rather, i'll reduce my home game attendance by 50% by selling pairs to games i won't attend

H Bomb
09-23-2010, 01:14 PM
Thought i'd update you on my thinking, as you'll all be interested ;). I still really dont know what I'm gonna do. part of me wants to drop one of my two tickets but you arent allowed to leave a single in relocation so this, as far as i know, isnt allowed. I dont want to give up my tickets....but i dont know what's gonna happen. I guess im too sad/angry to deal with it all this week. If only this team were about football once in a while

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-23-2010, 01:27 PM
im splitting mine as well - half the games, but yes......what are you going to do?

nfitz
09-23-2010, 01:27 PM
part of me wants to drop one of my two tickets but you arent allowed to leave a single in relocation so this, as far as i know, isnt allowed.Surely if someone has a pair, they can simply renew one of their tickets, not both. This would be now, rather than at relocation. Presumably once you have your single, you can then go to relocation.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-23-2010, 01:30 PM
with the rest of the money id have otherwise spent im going to buy myself a new surfboard. i wont feel like a pigeon being taken for some chain-choked financial ride that way......hopefully mother nature doesnt stiff me on the cost of being outside by 125% over 4 yrs *fingers crossed*

ArmenJBX
09-23-2010, 04:09 PM
I haven't been following this whole story, but does MLSE really think that by jacking up the prices they're going to put bums in seats, when at the old price already people weren't there?

It seems like a horrible business idea if you ask me. If there's a decline in your product you reduce prices, not increase them?

nascarguy
09-23-2010, 04:19 PM
why get haft season pack why give mlse any more money

Joe Kool
09-23-2010, 04:20 PM
They think it is supply and demand according to big Tom and are convinced that demand is still high. They are going to learn the hard way I think and this "culture" they are talking about creating in the marketing campaign will be squashed eventually instead.

mclaren
09-23-2010, 06:23 PM
At least we're not the only ones suffering - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100007727/football-fans-show-red-card-to-soaring-ticket-costs/

Yeoman
09-23-2010, 06:26 PM
yeah i've come to the conclusion, i will not be renewing mine
fuck it, not worth waiting any longer for a chance to maybe get something in the south end.
even that, i don't make every game. i usually score tickets in the south end for most games anyways, so fuck it.

nascarguy
09-23-2010, 06:39 PM
the only game I care about going to next season is when we play montreal

tfc2008
09-23-2010, 06:52 PM
I have one from myself but i need two seats more when there is someone who really gone drop two tickets contact me.
But i know nobody gone drop his tickets

Suds
09-23-2010, 07:06 PM
I have one from myself but i need two seats more when there is someone who really gone drop two tickets contact me.
But i know nobody gone drop his tickets

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=24709

Already season seats for next year up for grabs in the tickets trader. You can pick up your pair there.

the-lower-eastsider
09-23-2010, 10:53 PM
I think everyone and their dog should go to the academy game at Lamport on Oct 3rd, (well before renewal deadline) see what its like if 1000 turn up (more?), party in the stands, bring the flags, drums, banners and cheer them on.
I like! (in borat voice). u forgot to mention flares and booze...out in the open booze that is. lol.

the-lower-eastsider
09-23-2010, 11:15 PM
I really hate this kind of condescension from people who claim to have money.

When you have small kids on a low income, you dont divide your annual expenses up into weekly installments. If you did that for everything you'd soon learn that you're living beyond your means.

If MLSE would accept 52 weekly installments of $10, I'm pretty sure we'd all find the $10, but finding an extra $200 a month over the seasonal period is rarely easy.

I'm expecting the next response to be something like ....'well if you're too poor to...'

I wouldnt recommend that response.
nobody writes better stuff on here than u ian. nobody. not even that clown in 126 with the furry coat.

the-lower-eastsider
09-23-2010, 11:50 PM
Perhaps my call a few years ago to stop pretending like these are good people and lessen the relationship with the suits makes more sense now. How does it feel to be treated like a lap dog for years? This has been coming, all the evidence to come out of that office has been towards moments like this, and everyone gets caught up with how nice people are, or how they are straight shooters. They've been using you, and now they're throwing you out. I love the group you guys run, but take charge now, STOP PLAYING BY THEIR TERMS. It's about time we treated the FO the way the FO treats us.
is'nt this precisely what toon in toronto was sayin way back?

tfc007
09-24-2010, 03:53 AM
Dropping seats,had enough support occasionally from the comforts of my home!

maninb
09-24-2010, 07:24 AM
i won't drop mine,

rather, i'll reduce my home game attendance by 50% by selling pairs to games i won't attend

Good luck trying to find a buyer....

menefreghista
09-24-2010, 07:25 AM
Good luck trying to find a buyer....

If he's in the south end or corners he should be ok.

Anywhere else its tough to move tickets.

Pigfynn
09-24-2010, 07:29 AM
is'nt this precisely what toon in toronto was sayin way back?


:iagree:

H Bomb
09-24-2010, 07:33 AM
is'nt this precisely what toon in toronto was sayin way back?

I think there's a rule....never admit Pat is right in public or something like that....he might let it get to his head. ;) :D