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View Full Version : Smoke Em If You Got Em! - The Case For Smoke @ BMO Field



bgnewf
09-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Smoke Em If You Got Em!

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/09/smoke-em-if-you-got-em/

The case for smoke at BMO Field.

Comments always welcome.

Roogsy
09-18-2010, 12:55 PM
Agreed big guy.

What I would hope for is for the team to work with supporters who want to use "peripherals" in their support in a safe and effective manner. The smoke behind the net is a start but all it does is create fog that seeps on to the field during the start of the game. The confetti is nice. A light show would be fun.

canadian_bhoy
09-18-2010, 01:11 PM
To be honest, I do really see this as a big issue.

We already have a problem (problem probably isn't the right word) with supporters who are more concerned with what they are doing than what's going on on the pitch.

I think we need more focus on supporting in unison with what's going on on the pitch rather than supporters creating a spectacle.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just don't see this as a huge issue.

I just want to watch some good football, have a beer with friends, have awesome banners and sing and chant my butt off. Anything other than that is pretty much fluff for me

Toronto Ruffrider
09-18-2010, 01:22 PM
Agreed big guy.

What I would hope for is for the team to work with supporters who want to use "peripherals" in their support in a safe and effective manner. The smoke behind the net is a start but all it does is create fog that seeps on to the field during the start of the game. The confetti is nice. A light show would be fun.

I've never been a fan of that smoke when our team occupies the south end of the field at the start of the game. I can't imagine that it's easy for Frei to see when he's surrounded by smoke. Nevertheless, I'm all for seeing flares and smoke used by supporters.

jazzy
09-18-2010, 01:26 PM
Smoke Em If You Got Em!

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/09/smoke-em-if-you-got-em/

The case for smoke at BMO Field.

Comments always welcome.

call me old thanx, but don't like it....can U garauntee me, anyone using these devices, that everyone using them is responsible and not drunk out of their mind........would you want any of your kids near there?...if one has kids of ,but thats how I, view the environment, and I would like to see the game of course....it brings up the notion, is the game the show piece, or are the fans the centre of attraction.?.....Flares scare my wife and I, and I can't reassure her as I was in the hospital beside a burn victim of fireworks abuse......it's horrific......sorry many are responsible, but just as many are fools

Oldtimer
09-18-2010, 01:49 PM
To be honest, I do really see this as a big issue.

We already have a problem (problem probably isn't the right word) with supporters who are more concerned with what they are doing than what's going on on the pitch.

I think we need more focus on supporting in unison with what's going on on the pitch rather than supporters creating a spectacle.


Thank-you. Someone needed to say that sometime.

Roogsy
09-18-2010, 02:10 PM
Maybe people have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time? :noidea:

I have no problems singing and watching the game all at once.

BeerBaron95
09-18-2010, 02:16 PM
why does this not surprise me in the least.

razor787
09-18-2010, 02:16 PM
I completely agree with the article. Flares are dangerous, but there are so many dangerous things in BMO.

I have seen people pushing and shoving to get out during halftime, I have seen balls peg people in the head, opposing group supporters heading into areas with home supporters to cause trouble, and much, much more.

Flares, IMO are the least of their worries. If, like stated, MLSE places boxes of sand or water to safely dispose of the flares, and regulates what type of flares are allowed to be used, and works with the fire marshalls to ensure everything will be safe, there isnt really a risk. And on top of that, have (again, as mentioned above) only certain, trusted, members of the group control the flares.

People will know not to be retarded about things near the flares. When there is something like that around, everyone is looking out to make sure everything is handled safely. There are more risks (in my eyes) coming from assholes that are anxious to get to the beer stand during halftime, then carefully controlled flares.

King Tut
09-18-2010, 02:20 PM
I completely agree with the article. Flares are dangerous, but there are so many dangerous things in BMO.

I have seen people pushing and shoving to get out during halftime, I have seen balls peg people in the head, opposing group supporters heading into areas with home supporters to cause trouble, and much, much more.

Flares, IMO are the least of their worries. If, like stated, MLSE places boxes of sand or water to safely dispose of the flares, and regulates what type of flares are allowed to be used, and works with the fire marshalls to ensure everything will be safe, there isnt really a risk. And on top of that, have (again, as mentioned above) only certain, trusted, members of the group control the flares.

People will know not to be retarded about things near the flares. When there is something like that around, everyone is looking out to make sure everything is handled safely. There are more risks (in my eyes) coming from assholes that are anxious to get to the beer stand during halftime, then carefully controlled flares.

Well said.

Water doesn't work with marine flares though.

Blowing Bubbles
09-18-2010, 02:43 PM
^ meh if you're going to idiot proof the flares it becomes another lame gimmick. flares are awesome b/c they give an aura of being badass ..... but if the whole thing becomes scripted with sand pits and designated lighters ..... the like someone already said this whole exercise is just a side show and diversion from the game.

razor787
09-18-2010, 02:52 PM
What else are you supposed to do with the flares once they are done, drop them down at your feet? Theres always some way to safely handle the flares, after the lighting, and criticizing the sand pits because of that is idiotic.

Some people look at is as a "diversion from the game" others look at it as getting behind your team, and giving them a hell of a reason to fight. As a player, if I were to see my supporters with flares, there would be no way in hell I would let that match be lost.

And also, from the standpoint of tv, and the rest of the stadium, nobody knows that there are only certain fans allowed to hold the flares. Hell, I doubt it would even be noticed by the fans in that same section. Its not like everyone would have a flare anyways.

The flares wouldnt even be done that often. Just during high-profile night games for the most part. Most games happen when its bright as hell outside, so the amount of games that flares are even eligible to be used during, are minimal.

If you are wanting people to pay attention to the game, then start petitioning MLSE to bann the people selling beer, pop, chips and shit, as well as not letting people into their seats while play is running.

There is more time during the season where people are distracted by those two things alone, then they would be if they looked at what was going on with the flares/smoke in the south end.

London
09-18-2010, 03:33 PM
fluff got an entire team to jump in the stands with us after and the entire home support to stand and clap and buy us drinks all night

during the 90 mins,its about giving everything you have for you club, win or lose, showing them you are there.

ask the academy and there parents about last night

ill stick to my style and you can have your "tea and crumpet clap clap" supporting style

razor787
09-18-2010, 03:46 PM
fluff got an entire team to jump in the stands with us after and the entire home support to stand and clap and buy us drinks all night

during the 90 mins,its about giving everything you have for you club, win or lose, showing them you are there.

ask the academy and there parents about last night

ill stick to my style and you can have your "tea and crumpet clap clap" supporting style

QFT.

bgnewf
09-18-2010, 03:47 PM
Good points all.

Great to se a nice little discussion getting going.

Huyton
09-18-2010, 03:54 PM
We've already had one instance of two flares. One tossed on to the field, and the other into the stands.

I don't see how a "tea and crumpet clap clap" will put someone in hospital if improperly done.

Clapping, singing and chanting also don't stop people from seeing the game, either.

razor787
09-18-2010, 04:06 PM
We've already had one instance of two flares. One tossed on to the field, and the other into the stands.

I don't see how a "tea and crumpet clap clap" will put someone in hospital if improperly done.

Clapping, singing and chanting also don't stop people from seeing the game, either.

Thats been done by idiots who wouldnt be allowed to have the flares. If it were to be allowed by MLSE, then the flares would be handled similar to the flags. Only allowed in at one gate, and it could even be extended to being so far as only allowing certain people to bring them in.

And as I said before, there have been problems with the way we are doing it now. There have been supporters from the opposition coming and picking fights, supporters picking fights with other supporters, and like we saw a couple weeks ago, the U-sector and RPB's getting at it...

No matter what you do, there are going to be idiots, and the idiots you are pointing out, were not even supposed to have the flares, and were perma-banned (and probally charged) as a result of their actions.

wzhxvy
09-18-2010, 04:15 PM
How about chearleaders...selected purely on feminine physical beauty for once, and discarded annually if not fit or past their prime at 22. That is what I want and what I think will improve the atmosphere. And hot pants.

razor787
09-18-2010, 04:20 PM
How about chearleaders...selected purely on feminine physical beauty for once, and discarded annually if not fit or past their prime at 22. That is what I want and what I think will improve the atmosphere. And hot pants.
I agree. They should hire another Scotts Girl

London
09-18-2010, 04:24 PM
I agree. They should hire another Scotts Girl

change her pants to white!!!!

razor787
09-18-2010, 04:31 PM
And have a mist machine set up too right?

Red Skies At Night
09-18-2010, 04:46 PM
this isn't a MLSE FO issue... this is a regulatory and liability issue. The ultimate call would rest with the provincial fire marshall's office, and they have a zero tolerance policy toward the use of incendiary devices, flares, smoke bombs and the like at public events unless in a controlled environment under professional supervision (read: not in the stands). But the real stopper is that no one can without doubt demonstrate that something won't go wrong, and even the slightest danger raises a huge issue of liability for MLSE, the city and the regulatory bodies that should oversee such things (like the fire marshall).
so no-one's going to expose themselves or their interests to a damages claim over a pretty light show... ain't gonna happen and ain't nothing we can do about it...
public safety will always be the trump card.

Wagner
09-18-2010, 04:58 PM
Maybe people have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time? :noidea:

I have no problems singing and watching the game all at once.

unfortunately you are the exception, not the rule.
A lot of people, that aren't capo, are too busy turning back and yelling..."c'mon you f'ers!!" and don't realize that maybe something is going on on the pitch behind them.

Yeoman
09-18-2010, 05:32 PM
no problems with cops any time i've been around flares.
they just wanted to make sure we were being safe, and we were. ie last night
should be like the sons of ben, and have people specifically designated and 'qualified' to do these things.

prizby
09-18-2010, 06:15 PM
I completely agree with the article. Flares are dangerous, but there are so many dangerous things in BMO.

I have seen people pushing and shoving to get out during halftime, I have seen balls peg people in the head, opposing group supporters heading into areas with home supporters to cause trouble, and much, much more.

Flares, IMO are the least of their worries. If, like stated, MLSE places boxes of sand or water to safely dispose of the flares, and regulates what type of flares are allowed to be used, and works with the fire marshalls to ensure everything will be safe, there isnt really a risk. And on top of that, have (again, as mentioned above) only certain, trusted, members of the group control the flares.

People will know not to be retarded about things near the flares. When there is something like that around, everyone is looking out to make sure everything is handled safely. There are more risks (in my eyes) coming from assholes that are anxious to get to the beer stand during halftime, then carefully controlled flares.

MLSE is lazy :p...flares doesn't make them money (yet) until people realize they are beautiful and then want to be at the games

Red Skies At Night
09-18-2010, 06:30 PM
...people specifically designated and 'qualified' to do these things.

that'll be the minimum requirement, but the police won't be the one's deciding whether we can have flares, etc at beemo... (as per my previous post), they'll just be the one's enforcing the decision.

the cost-benefit analysis for those who would have to accept responsibility just doesn't add up in their favour, so it won't happen.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's flare parade but unless the regulatory culture of ontario changes dramatically flares at beemo will not be permitted. we are so far from it happening that it might as well be a thought-experiment rather than an aspiration.

Bars92
09-18-2010, 06:57 PM
Smoke is for primitive football matches.

canadian_bhoy
09-18-2010, 08:30 PM
Also - not to deflect from the original post (it was an interesting read) - but we wouldn't even have this conversation if TFC could actually put something worth getting excited about on the field.

Azerban
09-18-2010, 09:59 PM
Smoke is for primitive football matches.
holky shit a wee bit racist

Bars92
09-18-2010, 10:08 PM
holky shit a wee bit racist

don't worry there's smoke at my hometown club's matches. ultras are everywhere except England

Huyton
09-18-2010, 10:34 PM
So put them outside of the stands, perhaps right beside the confetti cannon and let them off twice a game.

I just think that alcohol, pyrotechnic devices and crowds don't mix.

Hitcho
09-18-2010, 11:29 PM
I completely agree with the article. Flares are dangerous, but there are so many dangerous things in BMO.

I have seen people pushing and shoving to get out during halftime, I have seen balls peg people in the head, opposing group supporters heading into areas with home supporters to cause trouble, and much, much more.

Flares, IMO are the least of their worries. If, like stated, MLSE places boxes of sand or water to safely dispose of the flares, and regulates what type of flares are allowed to be used, and works with the fire marshalls to ensure everything will be safe, there isnt really a risk. And on top of that, have (again, as mentioned above) only certain, trusted, members of the group control the flares.

People will know not to be retarded about things near the flares. When there is something like that around, everyone is looking out to make sure everything is handled safely. There are more risks (in my eyes) coming from assholes that are anxious to get to the beer stand during halftime, then carefully controlled flares.


What else are you supposed to do with the flares once they are done, drop them down at your feet? Theres always some way to safely handle the flares, after the lighting, and criticizing the sand pits because of that is idiotic.

Some people look at is as a "diversion from the game" others look at it as getting behind your team, and giving them a hell of a reason to fight. As a player, if I were to see my supporters with flares, there would be no way in hell I would let that match be lost.

And also, from the standpoint of tv, and the rest of the stadium, nobody knows that there are only certain fans allowed to hold the flares. Hell, I doubt it would even be noticed by the fans in that same section. Its not like everyone would have a flare anyways.

The flares wouldnt even be done that often. Just during high-profile night games for the most part. Most games happen when its bright as hell outside, so the amount of games that flares are even eligible to be used during, are minimal.

If you are wanting people to pay attention to the game, then start petitioning MLSE to bann the people selling beer, pop, chips and shit, as well as not letting people into their seats while play is running.

There is more time during the season where people are distracted by those two things alone, then they would be if they looked at what was going on with the flares/smoke in the south end.

This is utterly facile. You can't seriously mean it? You're trying to tell us that you think someone in a rush for the toilets is more dangerous than a flare burning at several hundred degrees centigrade that is hard to extinguish? Or that a ball coming into the stands from the pitch would do more damage to you than a flare in the face? Are you insane?!

And what makes you thinnk that the entire BMO Field crowd would just assume that "some people are allowed to hold flares but others are not"? How is that transmitted to people exactly? By telepathic osmosis? And is that the same way that the drunken yahoos will know not to interfere with the "very responsible" people carrying the flares? Because you think they should know not to be pricks around people carrying flares, so that means that they won't be?

Letting flares into BMO Field is like opening Pandora's Box. I mean we've had people throwing beers and shit at Ljungberg's head. That's how responsible the lowest common denominator is. And you want to give them flares to throw instead? Or assume that some arbitrary rule that "only sensible people can have them and be around them" will work and be adhered to?

Get a grip dude. That's like saying only sensible people can have and be around alcohol when in BMO Field. I appreciate the ethos that this might bring to the stands, but the reality is a disaster waiting to happen.

And statements like "there's always some way to safely handle flares" are ridiculous. Tell that to the 8 year old who gets 2nd degree burns when De Ro pumps one into the stands and, completely by accident, the ball knocks the flare out of someone's hands and into his arm or face.

I don't mean to dump on you razor, but saying a flare is safe is like saying an open fire is safe. It is, until circumstances intervene. And that's exactly why MLSE and MLS will never allow it, because they'd be sued into the next millennium if they did and something went wrong, which sooner or later it would.

Mikey
09-19-2010, 12:02 AM
Non issue.

ML$E and BMO field would never get public event insurance for unlicensed pyrotechnics handled by non-qualified personnel.

Strictly for third world venues that have no grasp of the Taylor report and how quickly a panicked crowd gets out of control.

Hitcho
09-19-2010, 12:50 AM
Non issue.

ML$E and BMO field would never get public event insurance for unlicensed pyrotechnics handled by non-qualified personnel.

Strictly for third world venues that have no grasp of the Taylor report and how quickly a panicked crowd gets out of control.

Amen

DavydMT
09-19-2010, 12:56 AM
fluff got an entire team to jump in the stands with us after and the entire home support to stand and clap and buy us drinks all night

during the 90 mins,its about giving everything you have for you club, win or lose, showing them you are there.

ask the academy and there parents about last night

ill stick to my style and you can have your "tea and crumpet clap clap" supporting style

+1000000000% agree with Pat

Last night was well planned, well coordinated and well executed, IT WAS GREAT. Saying all this I DON'T WANT ANY SMOKE(including the one FO has behind the goal) OR FLARES AT BMO as it is right now.

Right now we have too many people in the stadium, including supporter sections, who not only drink alot but abuse alcohol. I would not trust most of the people in the south end with this project.

Last night we had a group of people who knew one another by name or face and made a conscious decision to participate in this project. People also had an option to step back for few minutes if they didn't want to participate.

Flares and smoke will be back, if you don't like it just take a step back for about 3.5 min.


OUR CITY. OUR CLUB
Time to identify our style of support.

colman1860
09-19-2010, 03:17 AM
Non issue.

ML$E and BMO field would never get public event insurance for unlicensed pyrotechnics handled by non-qualified personnel.

Strictly for third world venues that have no grasp of the Taylor report and how quickly a panicked crowd gets out of control.

Agree with your post minus the bolded part. Germany, Italy, Spain etc. are "Third World"? Since when?

AL-MO
09-19-2010, 02:17 PM
call me old thanx, but don't like it....can U garauntee me, anyone using these devices, that everyone using them is responsible and not drunk out of their mind........would you want any of your kids near there?...if one has kids of ,but thats how I, view the environment, and I would like to see the game of course....it brings up the notion, is the game the show piece, or are the fans the centre of attraction.?.....Flares scare my wife and I, and I can't reassure her as I was in the hospital beside a burn victim of fireworks abuse......it's horrific......sorry many are responsible, but just as many are fools

Yes, I can. :D

AL-MO
09-19-2010, 02:17 PM
+1000000000% agree with Pat

Last night was well planned, well coordinated and well executed, IT WAS GREAT. Saying all this I DON'T WANT ANY SMOKE(including the one FO has behind the goal) OR FLARES AT BMO as it is right now.

Right now we have too many people in the stadium, including supporter sections, who not only drink alot but abuse alcohol. I would not trust most of the people in the south end with this project.

Last night we had a group of people who knew one another by name or face and made a conscious decision to participate in this project. People also had an option to step back for few minutes if they didn't want to participate.

Flares and smoke will be back, if you don't like it just take a step back for about 3.5 min.


OUR CITY. OUR CLUB
Time to identify our style of support.



Agreed Davyd. Wish I was there on Friday. DAMN WORK!

lips
09-19-2010, 04:16 PM
+1000000000% agree with Pat

Last night was well planned, well coordinated and well executed, IT WAS GREAT. Saying all this I DON'T WANT ANY SMOKE(including the one FO has behind the goal) OR FLARES AT BMO as it is right now.

Right now we have too many people in the stadium, including supporter sections, who not only drink alot but abuse alcohol. I would not trust most of the people in the south end with this project.

Last night we had a group of people who knew one another by name or face and made a conscious decision to participate in this project. People also had an option to step back for few minutes if they didn't want to participate.

Flares and smoke will be back, if you don't like it just take a step back for about 3.5 min.


OUR CITY. OUR CLUB
Time to identify our style of support.
I agree but I can also see if it is not organized and controlled like it was last Friday night it could easily go wrong fast. The way it was done Friday night was safe and well organized. The most dangerous thing Friday night was the bounce. Just ask London. I would participate in another display if it was organized safely by the people who did it Friday night.

King Tut
09-19-2010, 04:30 PM
Smoke is for primitive football matches.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LMAO!

Oh really? :facepalm:

I never knew the Milan Derby is a primitive football match. :rolleyes:

:flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare:: flare::flare::flare::flare::flare:

Yeoman
09-19-2010, 06:25 PM
it's all good
some people are just fucking ignorant of it is all

canadian_bhoy
09-19-2010, 06:39 PM
it's all good
some people are just fucking ignorant of it is all

I agree with the statement - But not where you were probably directing it.

London
09-19-2010, 07:03 PM
I agree with the statement - But not where you were probably directing it.

this is an odd comment

who would you direct it at then??

wzhxvy
09-19-2010, 07:04 PM
I wish people were as passionate against the alchoholics who frequent BMO and drink their faces off as they are against flares. If you want to call something "third world" which is a term that pisses me off, public intoxication is third world not freaking flares. I would take a sober person with a flare any day vs. a loser drunk who thinks drinking is an excuse to show us their real stupidity and ignorance.

BeerBaron95
09-19-2010, 07:05 PM
I wish people were as passionate against the alchoholics who frequent BMO and drink their faces off as they are against flares. If you want to call something "third world" which is a term that pisses me off, public intoxication is third world not freaking flares. I would take a sober person with a flare any day vs. a loser drunk who thinks drinking is an excuse to show us their real stupidity and ignorance.


TRUE!!

DavydMT
09-19-2010, 07:53 PM
I wish people were as passionate against the alchoholics who frequent BMO and drink their faces off as they are against flares. If you want to call something "third world" which is a term that pisses me off, public intoxication is third world not freaking flares. I would take a sober person with a flare any day vs. a loser drunk who thinks drinking is an excuse to show us their real stupidity and ignorance.

Thank you.

To Mikey: I hope you are not referring to City oh Hamilton, CSL and Brian Timmis Stadium as "third world"

J .
09-20-2010, 12:27 AM
If the alcoholics just double fisted all game they wouldnt have a hand free for flares and the sober people handle the pyro!

Oldtimer
09-20-2010, 08:38 AM
A lot of people here (including the original blogger) seem to have totally forgotten this 2009 incident:


TORONTO -- Two men are facing charges after a female fan was injured by a flare thrown from the stands at Toronto FC's game against Chivas USA on Wednesday.
Toronto police said two flares were thrown from the stands at BMO Field at the Major League Soccer game. One landed on a woman's thigh, burning through her pants and causing a burn to her thigh. The other landed on the artificial turf, causing approximately $2,000 damage.
A sellout crowd of 19,915 was at the game.
Andjelo Franjic, 18, of Stoney Creek, Ont., and a 17-year-old, also of Stoney Creek, whose name cannot be released are charged with possession of a weapon for a dangerous purpose, assault with a weapon, assault causing bodily harm and mischief under $5,000, police said in a statement.
"It's really disappointing," said Tom Anselmi, executive vice-president and chief operating officer of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment. "Flares have been strictly prohibited since Day 1 at the building."
Anselmi noted fans helped alert security about the flare incident.
"Our fans have been terrific. If you read some of the stuff in the chat forums right now, they're the ones helping to self-police.
"But stuff like that, there just no room for that. That's dangerous and stupid and we're just not going to put up with it."
http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=276178

While flares handled carefully (?) might work in a mostly empty stadium, at BMO it's just madness.

Even if there would be a small number who could handle flares well, just having them would attract yahoos to bring in their own.

Smoke bombs are different, and much safer. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

However, it's unlikely that BMO would ever allow in any sort of pyro. So it makes me wonder why a thread like this exists. Are people planning to break the law and face the consequences just to make things a little more "ultra?"

Maybe if we had more than 3 people show up for the last banner-painting session, we could claim that we need to bring things to "the next level." However, I suspect that the motivation for flares has less to do with actually supporting our team and pushing them to win. Rather, it is a distraction from the real goal.

London
09-20-2010, 08:42 AM
A lot of people here (including the original blogger seem to have totally forgotten this incident:

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=276178

While flares handled carefully (?) might work in a mostly empty stadium, at BMO it's just madness.

Even if there would be a small number who could handle flares well, just having them would attract yahoos to bring in their own.

Smoke bombs are different, and much safer. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

However, it's unlikely that BMO would ever allow in any sort of pyro. So it makes me wonder why a thread like this exists. Are people planning to break the law and face the consequences just to make things a little more "ultra?"

Maybe if we had more than 3 people show up for the last banner-painting session, we could claim that we need to bring things to "the next level." However, I suspect that the motivation for flares has less to do with actually supporting our team and pushing them to win. Rather, it is a distraction from the real goal







all your points are correct but i dissagree with the bolded statment.

it comes down to different styles of support and has nothing to do with distractions.

i again ask that you ask the academy kids and there parents how they felt about the support we brought.

Oldtimer
09-20-2010, 08:49 AM
But if it was done with banners and chanting, they might have still appreciated it greatly.

It's the voices in the stands that count.

Don't get me wrong, I think that flares look sick. I just feel that there is no place for them at BMO.

Oldtimer
09-20-2010, 08:56 AM
Here's a picture from my French club, OGC Nice. The flares are in a separate area, far from the general spectators. Note the huge fence.

http://96.img.v4.skyrock.net/96e/ultras-life/pics/293716487_small.jpg

That's a very different situation from BMO.

It worked well for several seasons, but eventually (after some "incidents") OGC Nice was forced to clamp down on their Ultras group.

London
09-20-2010, 08:57 AM
But if it was done with banners and chanting, they might have still appreciated it greatly.

It's the voices in the stands that count.

Don't get me wrong, I think that flares look sick. I just feel that there is no place for them at BMO.

it was done with banners and chanting, most feel that it was just about lighting stuff on fire and that was clearly not the case.

everything was well planned and the people doing the pyro were considerite of everything going on.

the police were there and did not feel the need to even come up to us and give us a warning.

if

London
09-20-2010, 08:59 AM
And oldtimer, i agree that flares are not a good idea at BMO because of the amount of people.

cold burning smoke canisters is probably the only real safe option.

DavydMT
09-20-2010, 09:08 AM
To Oldtimer: Motivation behind any display is to support our club and not to cause distraction or self promote. As Pat already said Friday's display was not done by RPB or NEE, it was a project done by a group of independent supports for TFC academy and kids really appreciated it. And finally if you re-read this thread most of the people are against flares and even smoke at BMO.

H Bomb
09-20-2010, 09:13 AM
ugh, every god damn year the same old boring argument about getting flares in BMO. I'm gonna start bringing my super soaker to games and calling it football support. Dudes, stops thinkin about yourselves. There are so many people here who worry so much about what they are doing and how they are doing it. Its a giant waste of time. Just watch football, sing a song if you want to, and stop with the dog and pony stuff

Oldtimer
09-20-2010, 09:13 AM
I said a lot of people forgot the 2009 incident, not everyone.

Saner heads will prevail.

Personally, the only time I was really scared at BMO was when some random tourist in front of me lit a flare. He didn't know what he was doing, and it looked like he was going to set the whole row on fire.

London
09-20-2010, 09:26 AM
ugh, every god damn year the same old boring argument about getting flares in BMO. I'm gonna start bringing my super soaker to games and calling it football support. Dudes, stops thinkin about yourselves. There are so many people here who worry so much about what they are doing and how they are doing it. Its a giant waste of time. Just watch football, sing a song if you want to, and stop with the dog and pony stuff


again this comes down to style of support, we understand you dont like or get it, but to call it dog and pony, fluff and plastic realy help bridging that gap that everyone talks about doing.

H Bomb
09-20-2010, 09:32 AM
no gap bridging needs to be done. We have the chance over here to get rid of the innane stuff from other places. And flares look good in still photos, dont look great live, add an impediment to watching the game, have nothing to do with football. I guess that's my bottom line, I've got no time for things that have nothing to do with football. I know a lot of people validate it because its done in other places, but just because other places do dumb things doesnt mean they arent dumb.

You're right about it being different types of support though, there's two major camps. Logical and emotional. I think logical (songs about the specific game going on, loud cheers when appropriate, etc) is better, by a mile. But emotional (flares, song sheets, shirts off) is another style. I'll never tell you stop doing it, but i think its a giant waste of time.

London
09-20-2010, 09:36 AM
thanks, ill continue to be a waste of time !!!

again its about style and we are never going to agree

H Bomb
09-20-2010, 09:39 AM
that i can get behind

London
09-20-2010, 09:41 AM
:rolleyes:
that i can get behind

good to have your support:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

DavydMT
09-20-2010, 09:54 AM
no gap bridging needs to be done. We have the chance over here to get rid of the innane stuff from other places. And flares look good in still photos, dont look great live, add an impediment to watching the game, have nothing to do with football. I guess that's my bottom line, I've got no time for things that have nothing to do with football. I know a lot of people validate it because its done in other places, but just because other places do dumb things doesnt mean they arent dumb.

You're right about it being different types of support though, there's two major camps. Logical and emotional. I think logical (songs about the specific game going on, loud cheers when appropriate, etc) is better, by a mile. But emotional (flares, song sheets, shirts off) is another style. I'll never tell you stop doing it, but i think its a giant waste of time.


Is football for you 22 guys kicking a ball for 90' or is it culture. I know that your answer is culture and that means that EVERYTHING HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH FOOTBALL.

H Bomb
09-20-2010, 10:07 AM
well football is a cultural event. But theatre is culture and i wouldnt light a flare during a play either

Brooker
09-20-2010, 10:17 AM
but you would chant who are ya everytime the villain performer got near your section? :D

H Bomb
09-20-2010, 10:20 AM
well if it was a pantomime i would!!! :D

DavydMT
09-20-2010, 10:21 AM
well football is a cultural event. But theatre is culture and i wouldnt light a flare during a play either

A single game of football is an event, football is culture and no different from theater. At this time we are created, building, identifying our own (Canadian / Torontonian) supporter culture and this will take time.

London
09-20-2010, 02:20 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/09...-streak-halted (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/09/academy-streak-halted)


Quote:
On a beautiful Friday fall evening, the Academy were well supported by Toronto FC Ultras Supporters group who traveled up the QEW to back the young Reds. Hamilton Croatia supporters certainly played their part in creating a real playoff type atmosphere as the game had postseason implications in the Canadian Soccer League.


Quote:
"First off, I would like to thank all those Toronto FC Ultra Supporters that made the long drive west to support our players. I can assure you that the players definitely felt your presence and they were all excited to play in such an intense playoff like atmosphere."


Quote:
Having lost many of his top players this season to U.S. scholarships and senior TFC signings (including star attacker Nicholas Lindsay this week), Bent was still optimistic that the first place Reds could finish out the season strongly before the playoffs, as he further mused about the strong show of support from fans.

"We now have two games remaining, first a trip to Montreal Impact Academy next weekend and then finish the regular season against York Region on October 3rd at Lamport Stadium."

"That was by far the best support that the Academy has ever received for a match and I can only hope that we will see more of that in the future. It is very important for (player) development that they play in front of such passionate supporters."

Oldtimer
09-20-2010, 02:24 PM
It was the flares.

The support would have been non-existent if it weren't for the flares.

;)

ExiledRed
09-20-2010, 02:24 PM
Really,

If you want flares, stop bitching at MLSE and other supporters and start lobbying the ministry of health and safety, the fire department, BMO field's insurer, the city, and every other party who has an interest in what goes on in that stadium.

Oh and good luck with that by the way..

BeerBaron95
09-20-2010, 02:32 PM
It was the flares.

The support would have been non-existent if it weren't for the flares.

;)

:flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare:


;)

Super
09-20-2010, 02:36 PM
Really,

If you want flares, stop bitching at MLSE and other supporters and start lobbying the ministry of health and safety, the fire department, BMO field's insurer, the city, and every other party who has an interest in what goes on in that stadium.

Oh and good luck with that by the way..

Indeed! QFT!

Don Julio
09-20-2010, 02:53 PM
Yeah, the fact that it's illegal makes the point kind of moot.

Roogsy
09-20-2010, 02:59 PM
Really,

If you want flares, stop bitching at MLSE and other supporters and start lobbying the ministry of health and safety, the fire department, BMO field's insurer, the city, and every other party who has an interest in what goes on in that stadium.

Oh and good luck with that by the way..

At the end of the day, this statement really reflects the fundamental issue. We're all arguing a moot point if MLSE could care less if we use flares and/or light ourselves on fire. But regulations may simply not allow it.

Yeoman
09-20-2010, 05:10 PM
Really,

If you want flares, stop bitching at MLSE and other supporters and start lobbying the ministry of health and safety, the fire department, BMO field's insurer, the city, and every other party who has an interest in what goes on in that stadium.

Oh and good luck with that by the way..


you make it sound like i haven't been contacting some of those every few months?
hey they don't know, then how can they do something about it

Cashcleaner
09-20-2010, 05:28 PM
Respectfully, what about people with asthma or other breathing problems? If someone lights up a flare or two in my vicinity, it's not too difficult for me to step away into fresh air. However, when used en mass across entire sections, the smoke and fumes become a very real danger to some people.

Let me repeat that: The smoke and fumes become a very real danger to some people.

I'm lucky in that I can tolerate quite a bit of smoke, but I know of many others that are not as fortunate. Why must they suffer? I fail to see how a medical condition makes them any less of a supporter simply because they are choosing the ability to breathe over the right for others to do as they please. It's shitty, because flares do look kick-ass when used by a large group (ie: the NCC match this year in Montreal), but if people are going to be struck ill by them, I think we just have to listen to reason on this one.

Yeoman
09-20-2010, 05:44 PM
so we should get rid of the smoke that they light off before every game then tooright?

Cashcleaner
09-20-2010, 05:57 PM
so we should get rid of the smoke that they light off before every game then to right?

I guess you didn't read the part where I mention: "when used en mass across entire sections, the smoke and fumes become a very real danger to some people."

I'll break it down for you if you're having problems. Basically, having smoke or flares used sparingly and away from the individual with the breathing problem won't be a problem. Having an entire section (like the one featured in BGnewf's photo) set alight could be.

I don't know what the effect from the smoke is on people sitting directly behind the goals, but I imagine it would be problematic for those with breathing difficulties. I don't sit there, so I couldn't say.

king dave
09-20-2010, 06:09 PM
Flares and football are like KD and beer:D.
KD.

Yeoman
09-20-2010, 06:44 PM
i still don't see a difference
either way; oxygen still being sucked out of the air somewhere, and fumes being expelled that could potentially with someone that has sever enough issues that have those problems you are imploring.
this is like the peanut allergy to me. that's how i look at this.
personally i just find it as another excuse.

Darlofletch
09-20-2010, 07:11 PM
http://theballisround.co.uk/2010/09/20/and-now-for-some-proper-atmosphere/

not really pro-flare myself, but those who like them, and supporter sections stuff in general will like this. flares in the middle of a big sea of flags, makes me nervous just watching it.

CoachGT
09-20-2010, 07:28 PM
I'm not a fan of flares - I just do not see any link between support for the game on the field and creating a distraction in the stands. Has anyone even considered how the players might feel about this?

That aside, in Montreal something did happen, whether intended or not. Scores of young people (teenagers) flocked to the area where flares were going off, holding up cell phone cameras trying to get shots of the pyro. That was in a half empty stadium. That is attention that I'm not sure is needed nor wanted - it created the appearance of a dangerous situation whether real or perceived. I have a hard time believing that any sports organization would want to risk that potential liability.

Never mind the potential for liability for damage to the stadium, as seen in Columbus.

I think that flares detract from the experience at a game. It interferes with people in the area who want to watch the game. The smoke and smell is irritating. And I also believe it drives out people who might attend games. And if people don't go to the games (even casual fans who make up a fair proportion of the gate at most MLS cities, including Toronto), then the team gets weaker (less cash flow) making it harder for the team to compete.

king dave
09-20-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm not a fan of flares - I just do not see any link between support for the game on the field and creating a distraction in the stands. Has anyone even considered how the players might feel about this?

That aside, in Montreal something did happen, whether intended or not. Scores of young people (teenagers) flocked to the area where flares were going off, holding up cell phone cameras trying to get shots of the pyro. That was in a half empty stadium. That is attention that I'm not sure is needed nor wanted - it created the appearance of a dangerous situation whether real or perceived. I have a hard time believing that any sports organization would want to risk that potential liability.

Never mind the potential for liability for damage to the stadium, as seen in Columbus.

I think that flares detract from the experience at a game. It interferes with people in the area who want to watch the game. The smoke and smell is irritating. And I also believe it drives out people who might attend games. And if people don't go to the games (even casual fans who make up a fair proportion of the gate at most MLS cities, including Toronto), then the team gets weaker (less cash flow) making it harder for the team to compete.
All very valid points Gary.
But I guess nobody here is gonna win this discussion and that's cool.
As long as both sides can discuss and respect the other sides views.
I know for a fact that they are cracking down on various 'ultras' in Europe. The violence has become a serious issue.
But I have always believed this game to be a 'tribal' mentality going as far back as any history book could record. Pitting town against town in an arena where fans can come to watch the spectacle and be victorious on any given weekend.
Sounds like the wlid kingdom yeah?
And that is what it is.
IMO, KD.

Cashcleaner
09-20-2010, 08:05 PM
i still don't see a difference
either way; oxygen still being sucked out of the air somewhere, and fumes being expelled that could potentially with someone that has sever enough issues that have those problems you are imploring.
this is like the peanut allergy to me. that's how i look at this.
personally i just find it as another excuse.

Seriously? C'mon man, you're smarter than this argument. You know that fumes lose their effect as they become diluted in the air. A flare going off ten or twenty metres away from a person just won't have the same effect on them as it would going off one metre away. And five flares surrounding a person will have more effect than one.

But now I'm really curious. What do you mean you find it as another excuse? Excuse for what?

CoachGT
09-20-2010, 08:12 PM
All very valid points Gary.
But I guess nobody here is gonna win this discussion and that's cool.
As long as both sides can discuss and respect the other sides views.
I know for a fact that they are cracking down on various 'ultras' in Europe. The violence has become a serious issue.
But I have always believed this game to be a 'tribal' mentality going as far back as any history book could record. Pitting town against town in an arena where fans can come to watch the spectacle and be victorious on any given weekend.
Sounds like the wlid kingdom yeah?
And that is what it is.
IMO, KD.

I can live with that. Discussion, no worries, and time may change things.

And my experience in Spain showed the crackdown in no uncertain terms. Police pat downs and the like in Barcelona - there was no way on this earth that flares were getting in to Camp Nou, at least, not in the supporters end. And watching a game there was like watching a match between the gods!

London
09-20-2010, 08:25 PM
Seriously? C'mon man, you're smarter than this argument. You know that fumes lose their effect as they become diluted in the air. A flare going off ten or twenty metres away from a person just won't have the same effect on them as it would going off one metre away. And five flares surrounding a person will have more effect than one.

But now I'm really curious. What do you mean you find it as another excuse? Excuse for what?

i can comment on this because of experience,

again i think flares at bmo are not a good idea

ive been engulfed a few times in flares and it looks far worse than it is.

actuallly if you watch the academy vid, you can see regular people arent afraid to walk right though the young reds banner while flares were going off.

again there are too many people in the stands at BMO

DavydMT
09-20-2010, 08:30 PM
Quick note: Most of the displays including banners, smoke, flares etc... are done before players even enter on the pitch, so no one should miss any part of the game. Atmosphere should be at 100%, organized displays should take it to 150% and player entering the pitch should bring it to 200%. Opposition should feel like they are in hell.

Unfortunately showing up on time is optional in Toronto.

Yeoman
09-20-2010, 08:34 PM
i just don't see the difference of one, or a hundred
they have the same effect
i'm not someone that's just been willy nilly about lighting flares off at soccer games; remember use to be in the army?
i've played with flares and smoke bombs far far worse then what is seen out in the real world. it all has the same effects regardless of size.

Huyton
09-20-2010, 08:49 PM
I suspect that the reason the Academy mentioned the support was because they usually don't get any at all.

When my son and I went to see Milltown play TFC Academy up in Maple, there was no support for TFC at all. With the exception of a 6 or 7 year old lad, who looked shyly at us and said "TFC" every time we belted out "Come on you Milltown!"

We encouraged him to get loud, but I'm not sure his father approved.

London
09-20-2010, 08:54 PM
I suspect that the reason the Academy mentioned the support was because they usually don't get any at all.

When my son and I went to see Milltown play TFC Academy up in Maple, there was no support for TFC at all. With the exception of a 6 or 7 year old lad, who looked shyly at us and said "TFC" every time we belted out "Come on you Milltown!"

We encouraged him to get loud, but I'm not sure his father approved.

you are probably half right but ive been to alot of CSL matches and have never seen a group of supporters go for 90 mins with 2 tifos, tons of flags, and a full selection of chants.

We even brought a banner for hamilton.

Ive seen the serbian white eagles do there thing and toronto croatia.

They sing a chant once in a while and generally use the exact same chant the whole time, and light flares, just to light them, not as part of a display.

Granted we had the advantage of a larger group of supporters, but it was the best support ive seen in the CSL

king dave
09-20-2010, 09:25 PM
you are probably half right but ive been to alot of CSL matches and have never seen a group of supporters go for 90 mins with 2 tifos, tons of flags, and a full selection of chants.

We even brought a banner for hamilton.

Ive seen the serbian white eagles do there thing and toronto croatia.

They sing a chant once in a while and generally use the exact same chant the whole time, and light flares, just to light them, not as part of a display.

Granted we had the advantage of a larger group of supporters, but it was the best support ive seen in the CSL
Now forget about flares/smoke or any other incindiary device @ BMO. Ever. Period.
It's not part of North Americas professional sports culture and never will be.
But last Friday at the TFC Academy @ Hamilton Croatia match at Brian Timmis Stadium was a different.
I spoke to many Hammerheadz and they thought our supporters were awesome in our display and support for 90+.
Kids, 20/30ish and quite a few oldtimers (my demographicLOL).
And pretty much all Croatian and huge footy supporters.
I have never been to Central or Eastern Europe but I can tell you the passion I saw at Brian Timmis Stadium last Friday was very much more genuine and exciting than anything I have seen at BMO this year.
And I don't mean to disregard the various TFC supporters groups as they try to bring it game after game.
Even Saputo was better than BMO.
But it's nice to know that a short drive down the highway to Brian Timmis Stadium on any given Friday night?
You can watch a game of footy with like minded supporters and see the game for all it is.
KD.

nascarguy
09-20-2010, 09:35 PM
Now forget about flares/smoke or any other incindiary device @ BMO. Ever. Period.
It's not part of North Americas professional sports culture and never will be.
But last Friday at the TFC Academy @ Hamilton Croatia match at Brian Timmis Stadium was a different.
I spoke to many Hammerheadz and they thought our supporters were awesome in our display and support for 90+.
Kids, 20/30ish and quite a few oldtimers (my demographicLOL).
And pretty much all Croatian and huge footy supporters.
I have never been to Central or Eastern Europe but I can tell you the passion I saw at Brian Timmis Stadium last Friday was very much more genuine and exciting than anything I have seen at BMO this year.
And I don't mean to disregard the various TFC supporters groups as they try to bring it game after game.
Even Saputo was better than BMO.
But it's nice to know that a short drive down the highway to Brian Timmis Stadium on any given Friday night?
You can watch a game of footy with like minded supporters and see the game for all it is.
KD.that is what love about the csl

lips
09-20-2010, 09:35 PM
I think that everyone has their own way to support there team waving a flag, chanting. Some like putting on a display like banners, smoke, flares. As long as its done safely I'm ok with that. The Yoda banner earlier in the season I was standing at the bottom of 110 accessible seating and was knock over and a couple of others that had sometype of handycap. Even a banner can hurt some. If planned properly anytype of display can go off without a hitch.

London
09-20-2010, 09:53 PM
^^^ i am sorry that happened lips, we had problems getting people to help on that banner, i was on the ground of 110 pretty much by myself .

and KD ,i would agree it was better than anything at BMO this season, the supporters groups are becoming less oranized in the stands

Roogsy
09-20-2010, 10:06 PM
I'll just say this: I love flares and smoke. They're fun. But that's about it. Fun. Support can be done without them.

My own personal experience with smoke happened in Columbus last year. I was on the big drum and playing away when the newspapers we had used in the initial TIFO caught on fire with one of the flares or smoke bombs that went off and I inhaled a mouthful of paper smoke. It almost knocked me out and I needed to go to the washroom to stop hacking and crying. It wasn't pleasant.

I would prefer to concentrate on other issues, such as getting more people out to banner paintings.

DavydMT
09-21-2010, 07:53 AM
...
the passion I saw at Brian Timmis Stadium last Friday was very much more genuine and exciting than anything I have seen at BMO this year.
...


Thank you KD. Flares or not this was a 100% positive experience and a very happy night.

smeghead
09-21-2010, 04:44 PM
i loved the flares and smoke. But personally i couldnt get into the latin style continous chanting that ignores whats goin on in the game. so ya every asshole has an opinion.