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Roogsy
09-15-2010, 10:44 AM
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canadian+players+lose+their+quota+edge/3526397/story.html

I don't recall this ever being discussed. Did we know about this? This will probably be good for clubs from a competitive point of view as it will not tie their hands, but it will seriously take away from the development of Canadian players which was our hope when TFC entered the league!

Ben - D.O.W.
09-15-2010, 10:48 AM
I think I saw a couple of references to it on twitter yesterday but in all the commotion about Preki/Mojo I think it got lost in the shuffle.

From an Academy perspective - would we not still want to focus on local talent? Are there any sort of rules in place for where we can pull in players from? If not, then yeah, I can see this being a serious downside for Canadian soccer developement.

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 10:53 AM
It was discussed when Mo mentioned it on GOL TV.

oxygenatedbrain
09-15-2010, 10:57 AM
Big surprise apparently to Weber...it was in the "other" paper two weeks ago...http://64.13.252.151/forums/showthread.php?t=24390

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 11:16 AM
Don't care for CMNT. I care to see TFC succeed. So if that means having 2 Canadians on the team then so be it.

Pigfynn
09-15-2010, 11:36 AM
It was discussed when Mo mentioned it on GOL TV.


Who? teehee ;)

DichioTFC
09-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Don't care for CMNT. I care to see TFC succeed. So if that means having 2 Canadians on the team then so be it.

Exactly.

Cream raises to the top, the Will Johnsons and De Rosarios of Canada will find football clubs. There's no need to force us to sign the Andrea Lombardos for soccer to grow in Canada. Having competitive clubs that play attractive football is enough of a selling point in my opinion

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2010, 12:13 PM
Don't care for CMNT. I care to see TFC succeed. So if that means having 2 Canadians on the team then so be it.

I don't believe in gauranteed spots. It sure as hell doesn't help the CFL. The locals will always want to play in front of their family and friends and the best way to ensure that is to have the best side possible for them to come back to or aspire to.

This attitude can actually benefit Canada. You know, the country you live in and don't support.

fucking facepalm.

maninb
09-15-2010, 12:18 PM
The graduation of Academy players will still be necessary/helpful....a team with some local boys playing on it will always outdraw and be more popular in the community, than a team full of imports, all things being equal...

SilverSamurai
09-15-2010, 01:01 PM
Don't care for CMNT. I care to see TFC succeed. So if that means having 2 Canadians on the team then so be it.


Exactly.

Cream raises to the top, the Will Johnsons and De Rosarios of Canada will find football clubs. There's no need to force us to sign the Andrea Lombardos for soccer to grow in Canada. Having competitive clubs that play attractive football is enough of a selling point in my opinion
I take it you're not Canadians? If you're not that's cool.

Stupid if this goes through. 1 of the main reasons TFC was allowed to join was on the condition they develop Canadian talent. Otherwise, would the CSA have ok'd it? Actually this is the CSA we're talking about... lol

I don't think their has to be guaranteed spots playing. if the Canadian players aren't too good, wouldn't they be on the bench?
But if every other league favours domestic players, why don't we?

Oh wait this is Canada, where we treat foreigners better than citizens... :rolleyes::facepalm:

Gazza_55
09-15-2010, 01:22 PM
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canadian+players+lose+their+quota+edge/3526397/story.html

I don't recall this ever being discussed. Did we know about this? This will probably be good for clubs from a competitive point of view as it will not tie their hands, but it will seriously take away from the development of Canadian players which was our hope when TFC entered the league!

I don't agree. This means Cdns will not count as imports for the US clubs. There may be more Canadians playing in MLS not less.

TFCRegina
09-15-2010, 02:11 PM
I don't believe in gauranteed spots. It sure as hell doesn't help the CFL. The locals will always want to play in front of their family and friends and the best way to ensure that is to have the best side possible for them to come back to or aspire to.

This attitude can actually benefit Canada. You know, the country you live in and don't support.

fucking facepalm.

Really? Because both teams in the Grey Cup last year had more than their quota of Canadians.

In fact, out of their six receivers listed on the "normal" roster, 5 of them are canadians.

Quotas work, after a fashion. It's about finding quality players to fill that quota and developing those who can be developed.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2010, 02:23 PM
Really? Because both teams in the Grey Cup last year had more than their quota of Canadians.

In fact, out of their six receivers listed on the "normal" roster, 5 of them are canadians.

Quotas work, after a fashion. It's about finding quality players to fill that quota and developing those who can be developed.

After a fashion. But most of us aren't in fashion. Let's not start down this road. There are CFL fans in this country. Not many would say the players are the best in the world.

IMO Quotas, especially in the CFL, doom the teams involved to mediocrity.

You want to impress on another sports msg board with those numbers? What it means to me is that the rate of Canadian talent is growing past the pathetic rate that the league chose.

Open it up or close it. All Canadians or Free Market. But that would doom the league. I get it.

The flip side is the Steve Nashes and that baseballer who won (obviously LOVE basball). They were the best without the after a fashion part.

nfitz
09-15-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't agree. This means Cdns will not count as imports for the US clubs. There may be more Canadians playing in MLS not less.There's been no confirmation on this ... but the speculation is that Candians will count as import for US clubs.

menefreghista
09-15-2010, 02:32 PM
So what people want is Canadian MLS teams to be the only professional soccer teams in the world without a domestic quota? Because that's essentially what you are saying.

As for this proposed rule, if it isn't reciprocal with the American MLS teams its a crock of shit. I will be pissed if Canadians don't count as domestics on US teams but Americans are domestic on Canadian teams.

nfitz
09-15-2010, 03:14 PM
Did I miss them having a domestic quota in EPL?

(if they did, perhaps England and Wales might develop some better players!).

TFC07
09-15-2010, 03:19 PM
Hopefully this is just a short term thing.

But I highly doubt Canadian MLS teams will be foolish enough not to have Canadian players on their roster at all.

menefreghista
09-15-2010, 03:30 PM
Did I miss them having a domestic quota in EPL?

(if they did, perhaps England and Wales might develop some better players!).

There is a quota on foreigners. Which is the way these rules are usually written.

Of course EU law complicates things and allows players from most European nations easy access to play in the UK.

-------------

Its actually a misnomer to call it a Canadian 'quota'. We have never had a quota on the number of Canadians we needed to have. But we do have a quota on the number of 'internationals' we can have. We don't have to have a single Canadian player, we just wouldn't be able to fill a full roster.

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 03:55 PM
I don't believe in gauranteed spots. It sure as hell doesn't help the CFL. The locals will always want to play in front of their family and friends and the best way to ensure that is to have the best side possible for them to come back to or aspire to.

This attitude can actually benefit Canada. You know, the country you live in and don't support.

fucking facepalm.

I didn't realize this was the CMNT appreciation thread and that this was a Canadian National Team supporter's forum.

Dude, if I cared about the CMNT I'd be posting on that board.

So does that mean I have to support the Canadian Curling team as well cause I live in this country?

Excuse me for not giving a fuck about the CMNT and caring about TFC only, you know, that city I live in and support :facepalm:.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2010, 04:51 PM
I didn't realize this was the CMNT appreciation thread and that this was a Canadian National Team supporter's forum.

Dude, if I cared about the CMNT I'd be posting on that board.

So does that mean I have to support the Canadian Curling team as well cause I live in this country?

Excuse me for not giving a fuck about the CMNT and caring about TFC only, you know, that city I live in and support :facepalm:.


What's curling?

You're in a thread talking about Canada content. You didn't expect someone to be pro-Canada?

That's sad.For Canada.

CretanBull
09-15-2010, 05:17 PM
Mo's quote was "North Americans are North Americans" if that's literally the case and he didn't misspeak (and simply mean that Canadians and Americans are viewed as the same) then let's get 15 Mexicans ASAP.

DichioTFC
09-15-2010, 05:40 PM
I take it you're not Canadians? If you're not that's cool.

Because my location says Detroit? Canadian born and raised, lived in Canada for 25 of the 26 years I've been alive. What relevance does that have to your point?


Stupid if this goes through. 1 of the main reasons TFC was allowed to join was on the condition they develop Canadian talent. Otherwise, would the CSA have ok'd it? Actually this is the CSA we're talking about... lol

I don't think their has to be guaranteed spots playing. if the Canadian players aren't too good, wouldn't they be on the bench?
But if every other league favours domestic players, why don't we?

TFC will still have an academy that will draw on the developing players in Ontario (i.e. Doneil Henry). But why restrict TFC to a certain talent pool for its senior squad?


Oh wait this is Canada, where we treat foreigners better than citizens... :rolleyes::facepalm:

Comments like yours breed xenophobia.

Batman
09-15-2010, 06:53 PM
I think if the rule means US and CDN players are treated equal for all team in the league, it is good news all round.

If however CDNs are treated as imports for all teams, it certainly means the league is doing something for the advancement of US players and nothing for CDNs, at a time when there are more CDN teams coming on board.

I think all teams should have the same quotas, thereby not forcing something only on the CDN teams as has been the practice.

However if the deal is as the article states, if CDNs are only domestic for CDN teamn, but US players are domestic in both US and Canada this must be considered disappointing for CDN players in general. I wonder if canadian immigration labour law would even allow it.

scooterTFC
09-15-2010, 07:31 PM
So what people want is Canadian MLS teams to be the only professional soccer teams in the world without a domestic quota? Because that's essentially what you are saying.

As for this proposed rule, if it isn't reciprocal with the American MLS teams its a crock of shit. I will be pissed if Canadians don't count as domestics on US teams but Americans are domestic on Canadian teams.


Agreed. If its reciprocal I think its actually better for Canadians then a strict quota of Canadian players on Canadian base teams only. Even if Canadians don't get full domestic status, it would be a victory if US based teams could designate 1 or 2 Canadians as domestics.


However I'm guessing the USSF will oppose any sort of domestic status for Canadian players on US based teams. The recent American based city restriction for next year's USSF sacntioned D2 League guidelines suggested to me that their's a protectionist bent creeping into USSF's politics.


On one player development level I can see that they might be tired of Canada leveraging their pro league infrastrucuture vs building our own. From a commerical standpoint I think they respect that Canadian cities are good soccer markets that pour incremental revenue into their system. Van and MTL have been the cornerstone franchises for USL/NASL and obviously TFC is a good earner for MLS.


The CSA needs to lobby to ensure that Canadian teams aren't just a cash machines for american leagues... Canadian player development objectives needs to be acknowledged and accomodated by the USSF. CSA does have leverage because of our teams commercial success at the MLS and USL levels. But my gut tells me CSA won't drive this agenda effectively.

In the end the Canadian teams will employ some Canadians regardless of quota, becasue is just good business for them to do it and the MLS's academy rules reward them for homebrewing talent. But it would great if we could translate the commercial success of our teams into a broader player development boon.

ag futbol
09-15-2010, 08:13 PM
In the short run, I'm fine with whatever. The Canadian component isn't going to go away.

But long run there needs to be stated plan in place to develop players and markedly increase the content. Not having that is unacceptable.

scooter
09-16-2010, 04:57 PM
i think we leave well enough alone---with the growth in soccer canadian players will develop especially through the academy's and tfc will for sure bring talent to the first team and maybe grow our own team instead of bringing in all these quick fixes that never seem to work out

just look at canadian content on cbc what has that done for canadian quality in tv land

one only has to watch tree house tv with your kids and watch TEPEE TALES what a joke that show is but its not only canadian content its native content ( and i dont have any problems with our aboriginal people its just the show is poor but put on to bolster canadian content )

DichioTFC
09-16-2010, 05:43 PM
i think we leave well enough alone---with the growth in soccer canadian players will develop especially through the academy's and tfc will for sure bring talent to the first team and maybe grow our own team instead of bringing in all these quick fixes that never seem to work out

just look at canadian content on cbc what has that done for canadian quality in tv land

one only has to watch tree house tv with your kids and watch TEPEE TALES what a joke that show is but its not only canadian content its native content ( and i dont have any problems with our aboriginal people its just the show is poor but put on to bolster canadian content )

I compare mandatory Canadian-content regulations to the entertainment industry.

When Canadians are competing on an open field (i.e. music, comedy, entertainment), they do incredibly well. But when these affirmative action measures are in place, they quality sucks.

Allow Canadian soccer players to compete with the best in the region. That's how Canadian soccer as a whole will improve. The De Rosarios and Will Johnsons will always rise to the top. Having an insular situation where teams only select from a low-quality talent pool will not allow itself for the development of elite players, or long-term success.

Watering down the talent pool so mediocre Canadian players get a chance is only bringing down the potential of TFC and mortgages the team's future. I don't care where they're from, if a foreign player can bring wins, play him.

Besides, a successful Toronto FC is *better* for the development of Canadian soccer than some bullshit quota.

DichioTFC
09-16-2010, 05:46 PM
Hate to pick on an individual player, but would Gabe Gala be on *any* squad in the MLS if his citizenship weren't an issue?

The obvious conclusion is that we'll be signing "token Canadians" to fill our roster, which is embarrassing and an insult.

menefreghista
09-16-2010, 06:08 PM
Hate to pick on an individual player, but would Gabe Gala be on *any* squad in the MLS if his citizenship weren't an issue?

The obvious conclusion is that we'll be signing "token Canadians" to fill our roster, which is embarrassing and an insult.

But there is nothing stopping TFC from dropping him right now. TFC DOES NOT have a minimum number of Canadians it must sign. It could have zero Canadians if it wanted to. The thing is TFC would simply have a smaller roster.

What TFC does have is a maximum number of international players it is allowed to sign.

scooterTFC
09-16-2010, 06:28 PM
I compare mandatory Canadian-content regulations to the entertainment industry.

When Canadians are competing on an open field (i.e. music, comedy, entertainment), they do incredibly well. But when these affirmative action measures are in place, they quality sucks.

Allow Canadian soccer players to compete with the best in the region. That's how Canadian soccer as a whole will improve. The De Rosarios and Will Johnsons will always rise to the top. Having an insular situation where teams only select from a low-quality talent pool will not allow itself for the development of elite players, or long-term success.

Watering down the talent pool so mediocre Canadian players get a chance is only bringing down the potential of TFC and mortgages the team's future. I don't care where they're from, if a foreign player can bring wins, play him.

Besides, a successful Toronto FC is *better* for the development of Canadian soccer than some bullshit quota.

Music might be a bad industry to compare to. Can-Con quotas on canadian radio are largely credited for the increasing numbers of Canadian recording artists making it internationally in the last 20 years. Dropping the can-con quota for Canadian MLS teams is cool with me so long as is comes with canadians to qualifying as domestics on US based teams. That opens up the number teams and of roster spots for canadians who can compete at the required level.

DichioTFC
09-16-2010, 06:30 PM
But there is nothing stopping TFC from dropping him right now. TFC DOES NOT have a minimum number of Canadians it must sign. It could have zero Canadians if it wanted to. The thing is TFC would simply have a smaller roster.

What TFC does have is a maximum number of international players it is allowed to sign.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canadian+players+lose+their+quota+edge/3526397/story.html



MLS is set to scrap its Canadian quota for Canadian teams -- a number that, without describing the minutiae of the league's roster rules, stands at eight but has been manipulated down to six at Toronto FC.

There has been a quota. First it was 8, then it was 6. It's simply not viable.

menefreghista
09-16-2010, 06:32 PM
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canadian+players+lose+their+quota+edge/3526397/story.html


There has been a quota. First it was 8, then it was 6. It's simply not viable.



Again, its not a quota/minimum.

The MAXIMUM number of internationals we can carry has been increased.

We aren't forced to carry 6 Canadians. We can carry none if we chose to.

DichioTFC
09-16-2010, 06:35 PM
Music might be a bad industry to compare to. Can-Con quotas on canadian radio are largely credited for the increasing numbers of Canadian recording artists making it internationally in the last 20 years. Dropping the can-con quota for Canadian MLS teams is cool with me so long as is comes with canadians to qualifying as domestics on US based teams. That opens up the number teams and of roster spots for canadians who can compete at the required level.

It's hard to find an appropriate example, but living in the States, Celine Dion, Drake, Justin Bieber, Michael Buble, and so many others are finding critical success not because they're Canadian but because they're extraordinary talents (well... Justin Bieber aside).

If it came down to a solitary roster spot, I would favour a quality American over a mediocre Canadian. Plain and simple.

DichioTFC
09-16-2010, 06:37 PM
Again, its not a quota/minimum.

The MAXIMUM number of internationals we can carry has been increased.

We aren't forced to carry 6 Canadians. We can carry none if we chose to.

Its a corporate policy. If TFC, as an agent to the corporation (MLS), fails to abide by the corporate policy, they will be subject to regulatory discipline. So in essence, it is a quota.

So yes, we could technically not carry any Canadians, but we would be punished for doing so. Just like we can all drive 50km/h over the limit, but we would be punished for doing so.

menefreghista
09-16-2010, 06:42 PM
I will be upset if this rule is not reciprocal. And it appears it won't be.

I have a hard time buying the argument that this is even necessary. We fill our team with mediocre Americans and internationals. They hardly prove they are better the any available Canadian talent.

I'm sure the major push for this came from Mo Johnston. But he was just trying to save his own ass.

menefreghista
09-16-2010, 06:44 PM
.......

TFCRegina
09-16-2010, 07:17 PM
Hate to pick on an individual player, but would Gabe Gala be on *any* squad in the MLS if his citizenship weren't an issue?

The obvious conclusion is that we'll be signing "token Canadians" to fill our roster, which is embarrassing and an insult.

Gabe Gala is a prospect though, it's tough to judge whether he'd be on any roster.

The folding of the reserve league has really made it tough for prospects to get the time needed to develop. One of the reasons why Nana turned out into such a good defender is that he got adequate playing time in the reserve league.

Yes, Gala played there as well, but not all players develop at the same pace.

I think we should be drawing on our academy to fill the squad if it's bumped up to 30, simply because i have zero faith in the NCAA draft system.

Benficachop20
09-16-2010, 07:54 PM
Gabe Gala is a prospect though, it's tough to judge whether he'd be on any roster.

The folding of the reserve league has really made it tough for prospects to get the time needed to develop. One of the reasons why Nana turned out into such a good defender is that he got adequate playing time in the reserve league.

Yes, Gala played there as well, but not all players develop at the same pace.

I think we should be drawing on our academy to fill the squad if it's bumped up to 30, simply because i have zero faith in the NCAA draft system.

agreed NCAA is just a toilet.

We actually have a lot of good players in the academy that can make that step up imo, so if we come into a situation that we need to sign more canadians i really don't think it won't be to much of a problem

MKR
09-17-2010, 01:44 PM
it's only fair if all the teams in the same league have to play by the same rules.

Just make Americans and Canadians domestic players and problem solved.

Teams in canada will always be behind the 8 ball because the talent pool is that much smaller.

Gazza_55
09-17-2010, 07:56 PM
I will be upset if this rule is not reciprocal. And it appears it won't be.

I have a hard time buying the argument that this is even necessary. We fill our team with mediocre Americans and internationals. They hardly prove they are better the any available Canadian talent.

I'm sure the major push for this came from Mo Johnston. But he was just trying to save his own ass.

If it's not reciprocal it will get challenged under the Free Trade Agreement within about 5 minutes.

RoyalMidfielder
09-17-2010, 09:24 PM
it's only fair if all the teams in the same league have to play by the same rules.

Just make Americans and Canadians domestic players and problem solved.

Teams in canada will always be behind the 8 ball because the talent pool is that much smaller.

I think you're missing the entire point. That's exactly why the quota is being scraped. TFC will actually have an ADVANTAGE over American MLS teams since they can pick and choose how many Canadians or Americans they want. American MLS clubs have to have a certain number of Americans no matter what.

Why is this hard to understand?

menefreghista
09-17-2010, 11:54 PM
If it's not reciprocal it will get challenged under the Free Trade Agreement within about 5 minutes.

Bullshit. In the USL Canadians and Americans are considered domestic.

VPjr
09-22-2010, 09:06 AM
As I understand it, this rule change was lobbied for by the 2 Canadian MLS clubs and the CSA was not consulted.

I understand why they did it. I can't really argue with the logic. As Royal Midfielder correctly states, TFC and Whitecaps now have the ability to choose from a pool of Canadians and Americans and lump them into the North American category but the US based teams must put a Canadian player on its list of imports if they choose to sign someone like Hainault, Johnson, Jakovic, etc...

I hope TFC and 'Caps exercise sufficient good judgement and not pay lip service about having a deep commitment to the development of Canadian talent and their support of the MNT. Just be honest, say that "we're here to win titles" and I'm cool with it. MLS is North America's 1st division. Winning is what it is all about and this rule change helps these 2 teams get closer to that goal.

Having said that, I like seeing Canadians playing in MLS and I believe that there ought to be a of minimum quota of North American players on each team (with Canadians and Americans being considered North Americans for all teams, not just the Canadian sides)

DichioTFC
09-22-2010, 09:13 AM
I really dont see the great injury that this has caused Canadian soccer players. The MLS clubs are scouting Canada for top players as are the top European clubs. The creme will rise to the top.

JonO
09-22-2010, 10:02 AM
Bullshit. In the USL Canadians and Americans are considered domestic.
?? I think you quoted the wrong person...

menefreghista
09-22-2010, 10:36 AM
?? I think you quoted the wrong person...

No, I think i missed the 'not' when I first read the post.

I still don't understand why the USL is allowed one rule but people claim its against the law for MLS to use it.

JonO
09-22-2010, 10:43 AM
^ Me neither - I don't know US immigration law, but NAFTA clearly provides an advantage to Mexican/Canadian workers over other nationalities, so I can't imagine that's really the case. Probably complex though...

Commie Red
09-22-2010, 10:46 AM
The creme will rise to the top.

What all the "free marketers" here fail to recognise or acknowledge is that this rule change has nothing to do with a free market of talent. The rule change doesn't open up the playing field to international players-- it simply entrenches an American quota system on a bi-national league. Due to the lowering of status (American players are a mandatory requirement of the league -- Canadians are optional), Canadian player's will be treated as second-class players in their own country ("Two players are equal. One player I can easily trade to any club. One I can only trade to one other club. Hmmm...I wonder who I should hire"). The rule change unquestionably benefits American players at the expense of Canadian players -- it does nothing to open up the international talent pool.

Essentially, this means U.S. "workers" will have favourable status over Canadian workers while applying for a job at a Canadian branch plant. Not only is this inherently unjust, I question its legality. If it happens to be technically legal under present laws (I assume MLS has at least one Canadian lawyer on retainer) I can't see it withstanding political scrutiny -- considering the wider implications. It also, incidentally, counters FIFA's growing demands that leagues do more to bolster domestic development and exposure of national players at top professional ranks.

:canada:

menefreghista
09-22-2010, 10:48 AM
Great explanation Commie Red.

troy1982
09-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Bullshit. In the USL Canadians and Americans are considered domestic.

Do USL team have to have a minimum amount of domestic players?

menefreghista
09-22-2010, 03:30 PM
Do USL team have to have a minimum amount of domestic players?

No. And neither do MLS clubs.

They have a MAXIMUM number of foreigners they can carry.

ag futbol
09-22-2010, 09:42 PM
Yes in terms of the creme rising to the top, well things don't happen by accident.

No professional league, no requirement for players, ergo no demand for said players, and no existing pipeline or competent people at the CSA to establish one ... well big surprise that we couldn't produce much talent in the past.

For now, I think it's clear the clubs need some flexibility. But as the pinko pointed out above were now more or less giving americans preferential treatment while getting nothing in return. There should be some heavy content requirements down the road.

Macksam
09-24-2010, 10:19 PM
If it came down to a solitary roster spot, I would favour a quality American over a mediocre Canadian. Plain and simple.
Yeah, I agree about not needing a quota, but in order for TFC to become consistently successful, they will need to develop the majority of their talent. This isn't the EPL. Having a team full of foreigners won't get you jack shit in this league.