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Pookie
09-15-2010, 06:58 AM
Within hours of Preki's departure, DeGuzman couldn't resist commenting on Preki and his decisions. I think it's only fair game that after 30 some odd MLS games that we question JDG and the decision to have him as our DP.

He Should Stay

He is the best Defensive Midfielder we have. A player with creativity or at least the willingness to make the quick pass that can jump start a counter attack.

Our GA this year is amongst the best in the league, which if you believe JDG on Preki, was accomplished with no system at all.

He is a Canadian and from a development perspective, could become an example for youth in this country.

While he didn't flourish under Cummins or Preki, he surely will under Dasovic.

He Should Go

He may be the best Defensive Midfielder but he certainly isn't the best Designated Player we could spend our money on. With limited DP slots, this is important.

His commitment to the team is questionable. He arrived after publicly stating his desire to remain in Europe. He was ineffective in his first quarter season but we gave him a pass based on fitness.

He skipped team curfew in Game #2 and was benched while players earning $1.6M less than him followed the rules. In a situation in which many resent the salary discrepancy AND where a new Coach was trying to establish himself, he pissed on all of them. He was benched again in Salt Lake in May for unknown reasons.

Our defensive improvement can indeed be credited in part to Preki who took players like Adrian Cann and made him an MLS regular.

JDG back as an MLS player (non-DP) at an MLS player's salary is fine. JDG is not an effective use of the DP slot.

scrotzy
09-15-2010, 07:02 AM
Worst signing Mo every made. Yes worse then Andy Welsh cause at least Andy wasn't making so much money. Look around this league and see what DP's are supposed to be doing. Potting goals. Not running around the middle of the park making soft challanges.

MKR
09-15-2010, 07:03 AM
nah he doesn't cut it. sorry not when other teams have real DP's and non DPs who contribute more than he does.

Actually i'll just say that having a DP who is a defensive midfielder doesn't really accomplish much in the MLS.

MKR
09-15-2010, 07:05 AM
seriously i'd rather have Carl Robinson back.

ArmenJBX
09-15-2010, 07:12 AM
Your understanding of the DP rule - or rather, lack of - is amusing. DPs aren't signed to score goals, DP forwards are. Yes, many teams sign forwards or wingers as DPs but that doesn't make it exclusive to those positions. If someone signed Lucio or Puyol, using your logic, they'd have to score goals to be considered successful?

De Guzman is not a goalscorer nor was he brought in as one. He's a defensive midfielder. Hence discrediting him for lacking goals is madness. He should stay because he does the ugly, unappreciative role well, because, let's face it, DM's play a very ugly game. Makalele was no Ronaldinho...

Menelaos
09-15-2010, 07:16 AM
Your understanding of the DP rule - or rather, lack of - is amusing. DPs aren't signed to score goals, DP forwards are. Yes, many teams sign forwards or wingers as DPs but that doesn't make it exclusive to those positions. If someone signed Lucio or Puyol, using your logic, they'd have to score goals to be considered successful?

De Guzman is not a goalscorer nor was he brought in as one. He's a defensive midfielder. Hence discrediting him for lacking goals is madness. He should stay because he does the ugly, unappreciative role well, because, let's face it, DM's play a very ugly game. Makalele was no Ronaldinho...

^ he said it all

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 07:19 AM
Worst signing Mo every made. Yes worse then Andy Welsh cause at least Andy wasn't making so much money. Look around this league and see what DP's are supposed to be doing. Potting goals. Not running around the middle of the park making soft challanges.

So by your theory Rafa Marquez is a bust of a signing in New York then? I am in no way equating JDG with Marquez, but New York wasted there money right? Yes Marquez has 1 goal...and against us, but you have to be dreaming if he is going to be the one potting goals for New York.......

A DP is what you make of them....like what Jimmy said....Your DP is paid for what you need him to do......JDG is there to facilitate the defender to attacker transition and to break up plays and force turnovers. In my opinion he does that very effectively.....But I am a fan, so take that for what it is worth.

Cashcleaner
09-15-2010, 07:23 AM
You make a good point, Jimmy. But it doesn't negate the fact that we picked JDG up as a midfielder at a time when we didn't really need anyone else in that position.

Instead, we did (and still do) require a striker, and ended up paying a premium and using up a DP allocation on a player that we weren't in any great need of. By that very fact alone he's of little value to the team.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2010, 07:23 AM
JDG is better than Robinson. DP better, though? JDG is a DP because he's a Canadian that was successful in one of the best leagues in the world.

That said, I want him to stay even as a DP but if DeRo is rewarded with the DP It becomes vital that last DP is a striker that can get results.

Furthermore, If I'm being brutally honest as it stands result-wise JDG AND DeRo don't deserve DP status right now.

Pookie
09-15-2010, 07:23 AM
I think JDG is a good DM, probably the best player we have in our system at that position.

That said, I don't think he is the best DP that we could have. Considering those spots are limited that is an important part of the equation.

Fushida
09-15-2010, 07:24 AM
Worst signing Mo every made. Yes worse then Andy Welsh cause at least Andy wasn't making so much money. Look around this league and see what DP's are supposed to be doing. Potting goals. Not running around the middle of the park making soft challanges.

lol. you're a joke with little or no understanding of soccer.


seriously i'd rather have Carl Robinson back.

oh god no.

v00d00daddy
09-15-2010, 07:25 AM
I voted no only because I would have liked to see the DP role used at another position.

As for keeping him...I say absolutely yes. He's a great player

The title of this thread and the choices on the poll don't mesh.

Stay or Go and Happy he is the DP or not are 2 completely different questions.

MartinUtd
09-15-2010, 07:29 AM
A lot of you seem to be talking as if we're only allowed one DP. When we have all three slots used, then you can make the case that he's not worth "DP" money. Because as far as the cap is concerned he's worth $400k give or take (surely someone will post the exact amount in correction).

Wull
09-15-2010, 07:32 AM
He's been sub-par in his tenure here (and I'm being nice about it). No Canadian player is worth a DP slot.

Cashcleaner
09-15-2010, 07:33 AM
A lot of you seem to be talking as if we're only allowed one DP. When we have all three slots used, then you can make the case that he's not worth "DP" money. Because as far as the cap is concerned he's worth $400k give or take (surely someone will post the exact amount in correction).

Fair enough, but $400k is still $400k.

v00d00daddy
09-15-2010, 07:36 AM
^ Far enough, but $400k is still $400k.

It is...but for 3 years most people were content with Carl Robinson making 330 thousand a year.

That made him 1st on the team and 13th in the entire league.

People even voted him our MVP...lol

Now we're bitching about a guy who's younger, more skilled, and not an Intl. spot? While Robbo rots on the bench at NYRB and we're still paying him.

Explain that to me.

Other than the DP spot being used up.....I love having JDG.

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 07:39 AM
Too soon to judge.

Let's see how he plays when he is unleashed. Preki's "system" had him chained.

maninb
09-15-2010, 07:42 AM
Not that JDG has been terrible...he's been so-so IMO, but paying that much money for a so-so defensive midfielder is just ludicrous...I'd say here's $350K take it or leave it for next year...

Wull
09-15-2010, 07:43 AM
It is...but for 3 years most people were content with Carl Robinson making 330 thousand a year.

That made him 1st on the team and 13th in the entire league.

People even voted him our MVP...lol

Now we're bitching about a guy who's younger, more skilled, and not an Intl. spot? While Robbo rots on the bench at NYRB and we're still paying him.

Explain that to me.

Other than the DP spot being used up.....I love having JDG.

Put quite simply, Robbo performed better for TFC than most of the players around him. He lived up to expectations of the position in his first two seasons and it's not his fault he's now with new york while we're paying a good chunk of his salary, you can blame that on mo and either preki or jdg depending on who you listen to.

JDG has been living off a reputation of having played well for deportivo, he hasn't played well for TFC or lived up to his salary.

RobM
09-15-2010, 07:44 AM
He may not have been a stand-out player but the defence looked lost when he wasn't playing. All of a sudden, that easy outlet from the back had gone and we looked for the long-ball even more often.

Lets see what he can do under a coach with a better understanding of man-management, balanced formations and tactical ability. Keep him for now, see what he does in the new system, then judge him. I don't think Preki did anything to get the best out of any player (except maybe Barrett).

I guess that means stay... for now...

Alixir
09-15-2010, 07:49 AM
Just to put it into perspective for all those JDG lovers out there who think he is worthy of the DP slot.
Andy Welsh did more in the 20 games he played for TFC then JDG has since he signed with us.
case closed.

Huyton
09-15-2010, 07:49 AM
Keep DeGuzman, and get a couple of attacking DP's...say a midfielder and a forward, like Tomasson and Klose (34 and 32).

ManUtd4ever
09-15-2010, 07:54 AM
I believe TFC is a stronger club with JDG on the pitch. I don't fault him for the fact that Mo utilized a DP slot in order to sign him...

Pookie
09-15-2010, 07:55 AM
I voted no only because I would have liked to see the DP role used at another position.

As for keeping him...I say absolutely yes. He's a great player

The title of this thread and the choices on the poll don't mesh.

Stay or Go and Happy he is the DP or not are 2 completely different questions.

I see what you are saying but realistically speaking, asking him to take a $1.4M pay cut and lose the DP tag probably isn't an option.

He is the DP now.

He either stays on his current contract. Or he goes.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 07:57 AM
Not that JDG has been terrible...he's been so-so IMO, but paying that much money for a so-so defensive midfielder is just ludicrous...I'd say here's $350K take it or leave it for next year...

This I am a little perplexed by....everyone is hung up on what he gets paid. Saying that pay him 350K is a little odd considering his actually salaray on the books isn't much more. We are not taking the full hit as a club and I know you know that.....he is an International player and probably one of if not the best player on the CMNT for years...and with that comes a price tag.

Has he performed up to everyone's standards...maybe not, but it depends on how you assess what is effective. He plays a dirty role that really gets no praise and gets dumped on if he has a bad game because everyone thinks we are paying him so much.....when he plays fantastically no one says a peep though. People are getting way to hung up on his salary in my opinion.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 08:01 AM
Just to put it into perspective for all those JDG lovers out there who think he is worthy of the DP slot.
Andy Welsh did more in the 20 games he played for TFC then JDG has since he signed with us.
case closed.

and this is based on what criteria....and yes I am a JDG lover, but I would like to here what your basis is for this statement. Since it is an open and shut case. :rolleyes:

Pookie
09-15-2010, 08:02 AM
This I am a little perplexed by....everyone is hung up on what he gets paid... People are getting way to hung up on his salary in my opinion.

I don't think anyone is hung up on the amount... though we pay for it through ticket prices... but the nature of the amount requires him to have a DP tag associated with it because of the cap.

And that's the debate. Best DP available?

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 08:04 AM
I don't think anyone is hung up on the amount... though we pay for it through ticket prices... but the nature of the amount requires him to have a DP tag associated with it because of the cap.

And that's the debate. Best DP available?

Fair enough.....I can agree with that.

It is always interesting to hear or to find out some of the big name players that TFC has actually persued for the DP slots. I wonder how many big name players Mo actually reached out to...

Shway
09-15-2010, 08:05 AM
stay but definately not DP money,
he needs to take the Claudio Lopez pay cut!

Wull
09-15-2010, 08:10 AM
Has he performed up to everyone's standards...maybe not, but it depends on how you assess what is effective. He plays a dirty role that really gets no praise and gets dumped on if he has a bad game because everyone thinks we are paying him so much.....when he plays fantastically no one says a peep though. People are getting way to hung up on his salary in my opinion.

I think the reception Robbo got showed we CAN appreciate what goes on in that position, he lived up to his salary compared to the players around him and wasn't money and a DP allocation that could have been better used further up the field. Like it or not that's a huge part of the equation when judging his contribution to this team regardless of who could be/was reached out to and asked to be a DP instead of him

Belfast_Boy
09-15-2010, 08:18 AM
He may not have been a stand-out player but the defence looked lost when he wasn't playing. All of a sudden, that easy outlet from the back had gone and we looked for the long-ball even more often.

Lets see what he can do under a coach with a better understanding of man-management, balanced formations and tactical ability. Keep him for now, see what he does in the new system, then judge him. I don't think Preki did anything to get the best out of any player (except maybe Barrett).

I guess that means stay... for now...

100% agree.

watch how often our defense looks for him to move the ball out. how he moves into space to give the D an option to pass instead of hoofing it up the pitch.
He's a defensive mid. doesn't matter who the coach is. he's not going to turn into a goal scoring machine because Preki is gone. he's good at what he does. end of.
his problems are that he's getting paid a lot of money and some people new to football expect goals for $. his lack of desire, respect or whatever it is that gets him benched pisses us all off. we need our best players on the pitch. not on the bench because they went out and got hammered or laid in NE.
so it's not an easy question. but I'd have to say we are better with him than without.

Carts
09-15-2010, 08:31 AM
JDG said yesterday: "...I've brought my best here as a defensive midfielder..."

If this has been his best, and his performance is as much of an impact as he will have on MLS play - then he MUST GO...

Whether you support him, or don't - his impact has not been a $3M per year DP impact...

I also don't like the way he's blaming fans for have the wrong expectations of him, b/c I honestly don't - but I still don't think he's done enough...

JDG said yesterday: "...I'm not here to prove to anyone I'm something I am not... It's normal when you don't live up to fans expectations, they think I'm here to score goals..."

NO I DON'T... I think you're here to impact the game at a very high level, as you're taking up 1-of-3 DP spots on our entire roster...

I'm sorry, I know many disagree, but taking up 1-of-3 DP spots on our roster, and taking home such a high salary in a league where many are fighting to pay their bills means to me you should have a HUGE IMAPCT on the game...

Time to end the experiment of a Defensive Mid as DP in the MLS...

Carts...

MartinUtd
09-15-2010, 08:32 AM
I think people have to keep their expectations in check. Robbo did well for us and I had NO expectations (for anyone in those first two years for that matter). JDG hasn't lived up to the hype but that's our fault not his. He's not only performed well but he's raised the game of those around him. Sure Nane shouldn't be on the team, but you can see how much better he is when he's beside DeGuz. You see the difference for Labrocca and Saric too.

Oh ya, any mention of Andy Welsh as a bench mark proves me how poorly informed you are.

Dave67
09-15-2010, 08:34 AM
I voted no, but only because of the money he makes. I think it's crazy to argue that JDG is not a good player. He is not a $1.7 million player, but he is a good player.

I believe he got 1.7 because MLSE believed we would all cream our pants if he was signed. JDG knew it, MLSE knew it and we knew it. The boards damn near exploded with enthusiasm when he signed.

rocker
09-15-2010, 08:35 AM
I don't think he's that bad.... He helps the team. Is he "worth" 1.7 million, given that guys like Angel get that kind of money and really make a noticeable difference? No. Does that matter? It's not my money, I guess. But I was expecting a helluva lot more from a La Liga guy.

He does good things... but his passing is awful. People used to say it's cuz his teammates aren't reading his passes (see: Laurent Robert). But I'm tired of that excuse. His passing is bad... he even did it with better teammates on the Canadian National Team. He can't shoot. Those are his faults. We cannot forget his faults the way people forget De Ro's faults.

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 08:36 AM
Your understanding of the DP rule - or rather, lack of - is amusing. DPs aren't signed to score goals, DP forwards are. Yes, many teams sign forwards or wingers as DPs but that doesn't make it exclusive to those positions. If someone signed Lucio or Puyol, using your logic, they'd have to score goals to be considered successful?

De Guzman is not a goalscorer nor was he brought in as one. He's a defensive midfielder. Hence discrediting him for lacking goals is madness. He should stay because he does the ugly, unappreciative role well, because, let's face it, DM's play a very ugly game. Makalele was no Ronaldinho...

And JDG is no Makalele. I think he's average at doing his role. He's scared of the ball, scared of hard challenges but is good at reading plays and cutting out passes coming through the middle. He's also not a very effective distributor of the ball as he enjoys going backwards alot more then going forward. DMs also have SOME responsibility to contribute to the offense, specially when you are playing more like a CM which JDG is asked to do plenty. We all know is offense is attrocious.

So, I don't want JDG back, not because we should have a DP that scores goals, but because he isn't good enough to be a DP DM in this league. Give me Rafa Marquez and then we are talking.

He wasn't considered to the ALL Star team and nobody (reporters or fans) bitched and yelled about the fact a DP wasn't going to the All Star Game. That really says enough right there. He's not even considered to be one of the best midfielders in the league, simple as that. I'm at the point where I wouldn't even pay him 200K because for 200K you can get a more versatile midfielder who can provide some defense and offense as well. Kinda like Alonzo from Seattle.

Oh I'll add one more thing, he is in no way a leader which to me a DP should always be.

supersaint
09-15-2010, 08:37 AM
I think too much was expected of JDG when he was signed. He is a defensive midfielder, and probably one of the most technically gifted players in the league in that role. In the right set up, I think he can be a very important player for us. The thing is he does a lot of things very effortlessly, that are more difficult than he makes them seem.

Roogsy
09-15-2010, 08:46 AM
Unless you are going to build a system around JDG that he can play in, if you're going to bring in another "Preki" then no, don't keep him.

However, if you are going to depart from the norm and try to build an exciting brand of football that emulates something from the continent, then yes keep him because he will shine.

The answer isn't as simple as yes or no.

J .
09-15-2010, 08:54 AM
I think he was the best Canadian available, came off a stellar GC and turned it into a payday.

He hasnt played up to par, even for a DM. Teams lay off him because he has no shot and without someone to play 1-2's with aside from DeRo who gets tightly marked, his skills are rendered ineffective.

Another thing, he blames Preki for his poor play here:http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2010/09/14/15353236.html

I never liked people who say things like this. Blaming other people, etc for their poor run of play. For me character is an important part of a winning team, I dont know if this is that type of character that wins the League.

Also, I think it would be best for him as well as the CMNT to play in Europe and best for TFC to get out from the contract hit. There are cheaper DM's available and that money should go to players who can get out wide and create.

maninb
09-15-2010, 08:57 AM
How can he be a GOOD DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER if he's afraid to tackle? You can tell he's very initimidated by the larger size of MLS players compared to those in Spain...yes he's good at controlling the ball (when he has time), but his distribution in MLS isn't nearly good enough, because he just doesn't have the same time as he did in Spain...like I said....keep him for $300k or so...or cut him loose...

Roogsy
09-15-2010, 09:06 AM
If we are going to break down what you need from your defensive unit in MLS I think it pretty much comes down to size and speed. You don't actually need a whole lot of technical skill. You need big, strong, fast guys that can clear the ball well and let the midfield distribute it. How MoJo could not identify this very basic fact I don't know but the teams that are successful in this league have those stud defensive units. Why do you think we have been more successful this year? Is it ONLY because of Preki? I think not. I think the size and athleticism of Cann in combination with Attakora's strength has been crucial to our improving our defensive capabilities.

If JDG were to play a more forward role, I think his size would not be an issue. We need the skill up there and in MLS, skill up helps break down clumsy defenses. But in a defensive role, he gets bossed around back there and struggles more than he probably ever has even in the top flight leagues.

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 09:23 AM
This thread raises a few questions but I'll just answer this one:

How do you rate JDG's play strictly on the basis on his performance in his preferred position of defensive midfielder?

On this question I would rate his play as only average and somewhat disappointing.

On the plus side, his fitness and effort can't be questioned. As well his positioning and reading of the game is excellent, perhaps this is where he qualifies as a world class DM. Positioning is certainly an important aspect of being a DM, but not the only one. At the end of the day a DM also has to make challenges and win the ball and hold the ball and this is where JDG is not as good to me.

He's often compared here to Makelele, Cambiasso, Alonso and other top DMs. But these guys are as hard as nails. They're good positionally and when the chips are down they make the tackle and hold the ball. JDG, not so much. His strong challenges are few and he has been dispossessed frequently by shoulder challenges by the opposition. This is especially problematic in a bashing less skilled physical league like MLS.

I also haven't been overly impressed by JDG's distribution. Some of this is certainly due to the shocking lack of movement off the ball by the rest of the team, but not all of it.

So on balance as a DM in MLS, I would rate him (based on his play with TFC) as a decent player but not DP worthy.

He was much better and more tenacious against Cruz Azul perhaps because he felt he could win the physical battles against the smaller Mexican players. But we play in MLS, so that's the basis on which we have to judge his effectiveness.

Exactly what I was saying but a heck of alot more elequant :D

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 09:25 AM
If we are going to break down what you need from your defensive unit in MLS I think it pretty much comes down to size and speed. You don't actually need a whole lot of technical skill. You need big, strong, fast guys that can clear the ball well and let the midfield distribute it. How MoJo could not identify this very basic fact I don't know but the teams that are successful in this league have those stud defensive units. Why do you think we have been more successful this year? Is it ONLY because of Preki? I think not. I think the size and athleticism of Cann in combination with Attakora's strength has been crucial to our improving our defensive capabilities.

If JDG were to play a more forward role, I think his size would not be an issue. We need the skill up there and in MLS, skill up helps break down clumsy defenses. But in a defensive role, he gets bossed around back there and struggles more than he probably ever has even in the top flight leagues.

The problem is we've all seen how much of a threat he is attacking. And he himself has said he doesn't like the position and we can't expect him to be good at that position.

EDIT: And that's part of my beef with him, how freeking one dimensional he is. Shalrie Joseph was asked to play as a striker for NE when they had a tone of injuries up front and he was more then good at that position. In the MLS, with the size of rosters, international absences you just need guys who can step up and play wherever they are asked to play.

ensco
09-15-2010, 09:44 AM
I like JDG, no one on the team is more personable, he's a stylish player.

I badly want him to be a star here.

But he isn't.

$1.7 million buys an awful lot of football player. My guess is that this is similar to what David Trezeguet got from Hercules.

So with heavy heart, I vote no.

Blizzard
09-15-2010, 09:45 AM
Not that JDG has been terrible...he's been so-so IMO, but paying that much money for a so-so defensive midfielder is just ludicrous...I'd say here's $350K take it or leave it for next year...

If I'm not mistaken, I believe he is in the first year of a three year contract.

Section 117
09-15-2010, 10:13 AM
it is actually year two of the contract if my memopry serves me correct last year was year 1

Huyton
09-15-2010, 10:22 AM
I loved watching him play against Cruz Azul.

He has more footballing smarts than anyone else on the field.

We need more like him, not less.

Just need a DP attacking midfielder and a DP striker. However, both should have the smarts to play...so no Heskeys, for instance.

And with the money that MLSE is making from us, they can afford them.

Section 117
09-15-2010, 10:25 AM
roogsy clean your PM's I need to sned you some info

Roogsy
09-15-2010, 10:29 AM
roogsy clean your PM's I need to sned you some info

LOL! Sorry...I get complaints about that all the time. Done.

Oblio2
09-15-2010, 11:01 AM
The Cruz Azul game was the only time I have seen him play well.
He is an average player, at best in an average league.
Take away "Deportivo" from his resume and I am sure many more people would be less impressed with him....

get rid.

Cashcleaner
09-15-2010, 11:04 AM
It is...but for 3 years most people were content with Carl Robinson making 330 thousand a year.

That made him 1st on the team and 13th in the entire league.

People even voted him our MVP...lol

Now we're bitching about a guy who's younger, more skilled, and not an Intl. spot? While Robbo rots on the bench at NYRB and we're still paying him.

Explain that to me.

Other than the DP spot being used up.....I love having JDG.

I can't say I love having JDG on the team, but I will agree that the biggest sticking point is the allocation slot getting used up for him.

Huyton
09-15-2010, 11:17 AM
Respectfully, I have to disagree.

I've been watching him (except for Saturday....that was like watching a train wreck), and he's virtually always ready to receive a pass, moving into spaces to allow an out to a defender who gets in trouble. When the other team has the ball, he's almost never heading toward where the ball will be played to, but where it's going after that.

He's like a chess player who is thinking one step ahead of his opponent.

jloome
09-15-2010, 11:26 AM
I see what you are saying but realistically speaking, asking him to take a $1.4M pay cut and lose the DP tag probably isn't an option.

He is the DP now.

He either stays on his current contract. Or he goes.

There have been several cases, including Claudio Lopez and Luis Landin, of players coming in as DPs then renegotiating at a much lower wage, so that's not the case.

jloome
09-15-2010, 11:28 AM
The problem is we've all seen how much of a threat he is attacking. And he himself has said he doesn't like the position and we can't expect him to be good at that position.

EDIT: And that's part of my beef with him, how freeking one dimensional he is. Shalrie Joseph was asked to play as a striker for NE when they had a tone of injuries up front and he was more then good at that position. In the MLS, with the size of rosters, international absences you just need guys who can step up and play wherever they are asked to play.

This is a legitimate knock. I'd like to keep him, but he's overpaid for the role he's doing. With better players around him, that wouldn't be the case, because he'd have more options as a distributor.

But both Joseph and Marquez have more physical presence and read the field faster that Julian does (although he's our best at reading and reacting, probably).

Ossington Mental Youth
09-15-2010, 11:37 AM
You make a good point, Jimmy. But it doesn't negate the fact that we picked JDG up as a midfielder at a time when we didn't really need anyone else in that position.


also did it in an attempt to keep him from signing with any other canadian team (which wasnt likely but could have stilled happen)

Ossington Mental Youth
09-15-2010, 11:42 AM
Too soon to judge.

Let's see how he plays when he is unleashed. Preki's "system" had him chained.

agreed

DichioTFC
09-15-2010, 11:49 AM
I support JDG. Next time you're at a game, watch *just* JDG, he observes play on a level higher than most others, transition from defense to offense is funneled through him, and is often double / triple marked.

The are many problems on this team. JDG is not one of them.

Azerban
09-15-2010, 11:49 AM
The Cruz Azul game was the only time I have seen him play well.
He is an average player, at best in an average league.
Take away "Deportivo" from his resume and I am sure many more people would be less impressed with him....

get rid.

his motagua games were pretty good iirc as well

surprise surprise ex-la liga player flourishes against central american opposition, doesn't like it up'em against mls toughs

he has a handful of games to prove that it was the big bad bosses that made him play sub-par, if he can't, find someone else

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 11:51 AM
I support JDG. Next time you're at a game, watch *just* JDG, he observes play on a level higher than most others, transition from defense to offense is funneled through him, and is often double / triple marked.

The are many problems on this team. JDG is not one of them.

+1.......

Wull
09-15-2010, 11:57 AM
I support JDG. Next time you're at a game, watch *just* JDG, he observes play on a level higher than most others, transition from defense to offense is funneled through him, and is often double / triple marked.

The are many problems on this team. JDG is not one of them.

did that a few times, saw him get dumped on his ass numerous times, fail to win tackles, pass the ball to the opposition or pass the ball to a teammate who was in too tight a position to receive it. The best part about his game was his lateral movement when he didn't have the ball

deltox
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
would he be a DP if it was any other team in MLS?
(i think the answer is no)

is he the best holding mid in MLS?
(i think the answer is no)


i see that he can play well.....i know he has helped the team.... but he isnt worth the money he is being paid. i would take shalrie joseph and free up the DP slot

BeerBaron95
09-15-2010, 12:09 PM
Too soon to judge.

Let's see how he plays when he is unleashed. Preki's "system" had him chained.


WTF are you talking about??

30 games is too soon to judge? Unleashed?? you make it seem like all of a sudden he will be the star player some ppl on this forum think he is.

Ive said it before and will say it again, we have the wrong JDG on our team.

JDG is not worth a DP slot as many have mentioned... He makes soft passes for the most part which in turn are intercepted by the opposing team at least 10 times a game! All that finesse shit he tries makes me sick. Make a solid pass or hell, a string of solid passes and at least try to make an attempt to earn that ridiculous salary he makes.

JDG should go.. period

BeerBaron95
09-15-2010, 12:11 PM
JDG said yesterday: "...I've brought my best here as a defensive midfielder..."

If this has been his best, and his performance is as much of an impact as he will have on MLS play - then he MUST GO...

Whether you support him, or don't - his impact has not been a $3M per year DP impact...

I also don't like the way he's blaming fans for have the wrong expectations of him, b/c I honestly don't - but I still don't think he's done enough...

JDG said yesterday: "...I'm not here to prove to anyone I'm something I am not... It's normal when you don't live up to fans expectations, they think I'm here to score goals..."

NO I DON'T... I think you're here to impact the game at a very high level, as you're taking up 1-of-3 DP spots on our entire roster...

I'm sorry, I know many disagree, but taking up 1-of-3 DP spots on our roster, and taking home such a high salary in a league where many are fighting to pay their bills means to me you should have a HUGE IMAPCT on the game...

Time to end the experiment of a Defensive Mid as DP in the MLS...

Carts...


FUCKING THIS ^^^

Roogsy
09-15-2010, 12:12 PM
I think I understand OT's point of view.

I too am looking forward to seeing JDG outside of Preki's "no system" system. If he still can't make it work...ship him out. Until then, I will give my judgement on JDG a reprieve, although to save himself, he'd have to really impress me.

BeerBaron95
09-15-2010, 12:16 PM
I think I understand OT's point of view.

I too am looking forward to seeing JDG outside of Preki's "no system" system. If he still can't make it work...ship him out. Until then, I will give my judgement on JDG a reprieve, although to save himself, he'd have to really impress me.


You're blind then bro.. lol

bolded part wont happen.

when he's gone u owe me a beer.... and we can do it at the peeler bar aight ?!?!?

:drinking::drinking::drinking:

Roogsy
09-15-2010, 12:18 PM
You're blind then bro.. lol

bolded part wont happen.

when he's gone u owe me a beer.... and we can do it at the peeler bar aight ?!?!?

:drinking::drinking::drinking:



:lol:




:hump:

BeerBaron95
09-15-2010, 12:20 PM
43 pendejos voted yes (approve of DP status)...:facepalm:

wassup wit dat ?!?!

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 12:26 PM
Too soon to judge.

Let's see how he plays when he is unleashed. Preki's "system" had him chained.

And last year he was chained to who's system? Come on now, he didn't join the MLS under Preki and there was the same debate last year as their is this year. Nothing changed under Preki.

In fact, Preki's system in my opinion probably benefited him in that Preki probably didn't care whether he provided any offense or not. I hope the next coach has a different mentality and doesn't expect his two central midfielders to provide 0 offense.

We'll see, but my prediction is JDG's level has simply dropped and people are still holding on to what he did in the past.

druid
09-15-2010, 12:26 PM
I think he's a great player. I don't think we've seen the best of him, merely flashes.

I think both the style of football and lack of tactics are impacting his performances negatively. I also think that we're lacking a decent partner for him in a two man midfield. He also seems to be one of the players more affected by whatever is going on in dressing room.

Whether or not it's smart to allocate a DP spot to that type of player is another question. I think it only makes sense if you're going to build a team around the player, which we obviously haven't done. But I think the same would go for any DP in any position. If you're not playing to their strengths, it's going to be a waste of cash. Much the way many of the MLS's top scorers have done nothing in TO.

Wooster_TFC
09-15-2010, 12:38 PM
43 pendejos voted yes (approve of DP status)...:facepalm:

wassup wit dat ?!?!

I take offense to this personal attack on my having voted yes. :)

That said, last year, the answer is no. This year, the answer is yes. I believe that you need something set up like New York has for its 3 DP slots. 2 attackers, and 1 defensive-minded. With only 1 DP slot last year, it HAD to be an attacker, and Mo/MLSE screwed up in getting JDG.

That said, I think JDG is a very good/excellent SUPPORT DP, but Mo once again dropped the ball (along with Preki, maybe) and didn't bring in someone to be the attacking DP (and we should have two of them mind you). It's possible Mista is this guy, and with a new system we'll see what happens tonight I guess.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 12:41 PM
And last year he was chained to who's system? Come on now, he didn't join the MLS under Preki and there was the same debate last year as their is this year. Nothing changed under Preki

This year it is fair to judge his performance...with a full training camp, off season etc.....last season you can't honestly think he was match fit for the 5 games or so he played....but I will agree taking his performance based on this season is a more fair way of looking at it.

Question is now.......if TFC was doing well and the attack was clicking and scoring...would we even be having this debate? My guess is no one would be saying a word about how much money he gets paid or what passes he missed, or what he is or isn't supposed to do.

P-NUTZ
09-15-2010, 12:41 PM
JDG talks a lot.

He should be flourishing at this level. Tell me a guy of his talent and skill can't dominate? maybe score a goal in this league? Set some up? Hit the net once in a while? Be a consummate leader?

C'mon, he has to play better. His support is sometimes weak, i agree. He is defensively stronger by nature, sure. But his miss-tackles, incomplete passes, slower pace, and lost balls are more than I expected from his hype.

We're better with him than without right now. But he has more to prove to me and he should shut up and get to it.

maninb
09-15-2010, 12:43 PM
^ JDG isn't fit to shine Marques's boots....

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2010, 12:49 PM
WTF are you talking about??

Ive said it before and will say it again, we have the wrong JDG on our team.

JDG should go.. period


There's only one JDG. Unless he dons the RED and WHITE.

GingerNinja
09-15-2010, 01:12 PM
I agree with the few people who have already said, lets wait to see what he does without Preki.
I think one oppressive bad apple coach can really hamper the team or an individual.
I bet JDG will have a massively positive impact on tonights game.

habstfc
09-15-2010, 01:20 PM
Does anyone have a copy of "soccer for dummies", I'm just wondering what it says a DM role is out on the pitch?

Dave67
09-15-2010, 01:27 PM
Does anyone have a copy of "soccer for dummies", I'm just wondering what it says a DM role is out on the pitch?

I am pretty sure it does not say 'passes the ball into touch 3 or 4 times per game because he cannot adapt to the players on his team'

P-NUTZ
09-15-2010, 01:28 PM
Hey JDG gets unleashed tonight with guidance from his favorite master tactician Daso!

I can't wait. Maybe the players will win one for the gipper like they did for cummins, who i think was also nicer to them than carver was. Don't be mean to these guys, they have feelings to. Good luck Daso, you're at their mercy.

spot-on
09-15-2010, 01:33 PM
Man the opinions of some in here can be frustrating. What is the point of even considering getting rid of JDG if we don't have any sort of suitable replacement waiting in the ranks. What are we going to do? Send him packing...then wait until we can find a player worthy of this forum's inflated ideals of a DP worthy player to come along...AND want to sign with us?

I'm not sure if you guys have been noticing, but it's not exactly like the Henry's and Beckham's are knocking on our door and pleading to play for our team. If there was any romance from European players to come and sign with TFC, it's over now because of all the drama we've seen in the past two seasons.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that we only have two DP slots filled. That means it would take TWO 'amazing' players to come along before we should even consider the discussion of whether or not JDG has a place on this team. People are talking as though we are good enough to simply let someone like Julian leave. We're not. We're simply not. We all saw what happened in front of us at BMO when he didn't play against New York. It's bad. And certainly not something we can afford to throw away because half of the supporters can't wrap their heads around simple accounting.

FFS.

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 01:34 PM
That said, last year, the answer is no. This year, the answer is yes. I believe that you need something set up like New York has for its 3 DP slots. 2 attackers, and 1 defensive-minded. With only 1 DP slot last year, it HAD to be an attacker, and Mo/MLSE screwed up in getting JDG.

That said, I think JDG is a very good/excellent SUPPORT DP, but Mo once again dropped the ball (along with Preki, maybe) and didn't bring in someone to be the attacking DP (and we should have two of them mind you). It's possible Mista is this guy, and with a new system we'll see what happens tonight I guess.


I agree with the few people who have already said, lets wait to see what he does without Preki.
I think one oppressive bad apple coach can really hamper the team or an individual.
I bet JDG will have a massively positive impact on tonights game.


Word.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 01:35 PM
Man the opinions of some in here can be frustrating. What is the point of even considering getting rid of JDG if we don't have any sort of suitable replacement waiting in the ranks. What are we going to do? Send him packing...then wait until we can find a player worthy of this forum's inflated ideals of a DP worthy player to come along...AND want to sign with us?

I'm not sure if you guys have been noticing, but it's not exactly like the Henry's and Beckham's are knocking on our door and pleading to play for our team. If there was any romance from European players to come and sign with TFC, it's over now because of all the drama we've seen in the past two seasons.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that we only have two DP slots filled. That means it would take TWO 'amazing' players to come along before we should even consider the discussion of whether or not JDG has a place on this team. People are talking as though we are good enough to simply let someone like Julian leave. We're not. We're simply not. We all saw what happened in front of us at BMO when he didn't play against New York. It's bad. And certainly not something we can afford to throw away because half of the supporters can't wrap their heads around simple accounting.

FFS.

and that my friend was spot-on. :D

scrotzy
09-15-2010, 01:46 PM
did that a few times, saw him get dumped on his ass numerous times, fail to win tackles, pass the ball to the opposition or pass the ball to a teammate who was in too tight a position to receive it. The best part about his game was his lateral movement when he didn't have the ball

I'm glad someone sees the same thing i see! This guy fails to create anything and as a defensive midfielder his tackling is pathetic. I was all for him when he came here based off his resume but now that I have seen him play i feel that his position could be filled by someone who makes alot less money and works harder.

I know people that know JDG personally and I know he wasn't impressed his first day here when he showed up and there was an optional training day and noone was there to meet him. Said he hadn't seen anything like it in his life. lol Maybe he realized him coming here was a mistake. Christ I do now!

BeerBaron95
09-15-2010, 01:48 PM
And I haven't even touched on the fact that we only have two DP slots filled. That means it would take TWO 'amazing' players to come along before we should even consider the discussion of whether or not JDG has a place on this team. People are talking as though we are good enough to simply let someone like Julian leave. We're not. We're simply not. We all saw what happened in front of us at BMO when he didn't play against New York. It's bad. And certainly not something we can afford to throw away because half of the supporters can't wrap their heads around simple accounting.

FFS.

Nobody is even mentioning Mista in this cause apparently it takes 30+ games for some on this forum to wait and see for a player that came from a high calibre league/team to be fully unleashed upon the MLS

whatever... i still dont like the fact he makes DP money and in my eyes has not done a thing to deserve it. He's soft and prone to passing the ball to the opposing team as much as he hits one on our own

and he wouldnt have made a difference vs NEW York anyways... so whatever it is you're smoking/snorting/shootin up, give it a rest cause its obviously making you delusional

Looking forward to the Academy game on Friday

Dave67
09-15-2010, 01:56 PM
^ I'm starting to think JDG gets some people here into clubs for free and provides bottle service. Also you mention Mista who is basically here because of JDG. So really JDG has become a $2.7 Million dollar fuck up.

Lots of people here like to have signatures putting Mo on notice and Anselmi on notice. It's time people put JDG on notice.

If JDG is as talented, skilled and as intelligent as many people on here believe then it is time for him to add 'adaptable' to his resume. JDG you have been here long enough to know the skills and lack of skills of your teammates. You need to start adapting to them because clearly what you have done so far in this team sport has been lacking.

spot-on
09-15-2010, 01:58 PM
Nobody is even mentioning Mista in this cause apparently it takes 30+ games for some on this forum to wait and see for a player that came from a high calibre league/team to be fully unleashed upon the MLS

whatever... i still dont like the fact he makes DP money and in my eyes has not done a thing to deserve it. He's soft and prone to passing the ball to the opposing team as much as he hits one on our own

and he wouldnt have made a difference vs NEW York anyways... so whatever it is you're smoking/snorting/shootin up, give it a rest cause its obviously making you delusional

Looking forward to the Academy game on Friday

Perhaps we should mention Mista though, now that you bring it up. Forgetting about the 30+ game 'trial period' you mention, has he performed better than JDG...or more appropriately, is he more worthy of a DP position?

If not...then we are left with wanting to remove both of them. Fine...but then how are we a better team? I mean, that's what all of this is about right? We all want a better team. My argument is simple:

Our team without JDG is not better. We have no suitable replacement. Talking about whether or not he is worth $400k is therefore completely moot. I'll be more than happy to revisit this when we have other potential DPs wanting to play for our team. As of right now, we don't.

And with regard to the NY game...I'm not about to say it was simply coincidence that it was in the top 3 worst showings at home for our team ever. JDG being in the lineup may not have saved the game, but I don't think it's fair to say he wouldn't have helped.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 02:04 PM
and he wouldnt have made a difference vs NEW York anyways... so whatever it is you're smoking/snorting/shootin up, give it a rest cause its obviously making you delusional

fair enough that you don't like the fact that he is making the money he is...that is a valid concern....but you have to be joking when you think he didn't make a difference in that match....when just the game before on the ROAD...with him in the lineup we only lost 1-0......just sayin' :)

deltox
09-15-2010, 02:11 PM
we are not talking about removing them... we are just saying they are overpaid and shouldnt take up the DP spot.

maninb
09-15-2010, 02:15 PM
and that my friend was spot-on. :D

I don't think anyone here wants to "GET RID" of JDG...wasn't the point being he's just not worth a DP spot/cost? I hope he really turns it on tonight and shows the "doubters" (which includes me) that he can play in this league...

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 02:15 PM
we are not talking about removing them... we are just saying they are overpaid and shouldnt take up the DP spot.

But I think spot-on makes a valid point.....regardless of if they take up a DP spot or not.....From what we know, we have had no one else willing to fill these roles for us.....no one is knocking down the door to play for us....whether this is an issue with Mo or MLSE is a different story. We still would have to have 2 more DP's of better quality on our team to knock JDG and Mista off thier pedestals.

I'd like to know some of the other players we have offered up these spots to and how much they commanded for coming here.

spot-on
09-15-2010, 02:16 PM
we are not talking about removing them... we are just saying they are overpaid and shouldnt take up the DP spot.

Valid.

I'm just not sure that's realistic. (i.e. removing DP status AND keeping the player)

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 02:17 PM
I don't think anyone here wants to "GET RID" of JDG...wasn't the point being he's just not worth a DP spot/cost? I hope he really turns it on tonight and shows the "doubters" (which includes me) that he can play in this league...

I know that is what you mean.......but can you fault him or his handlers for negotiating that deal for him? Mo is to blame for giving him what he is making.......:)

Brooker
09-15-2010, 02:20 PM
He skipped team curfew in Game #2woah I missed that one. nice example to set for the youngins in the fuckin 2nd game of the season lol.

Dave67
09-15-2010, 02:21 PM
^^ no you can't fault him for taking the $$.

I just figure a guy like DeRo has made Barrett a better player. If DeRo goes today Chad regresses in his ability and goes back to almost worthless.

I don't see who JDG is making better. In a team sport like this one I figure you need to be able to make your teammates look and play better or you need to be able to do it all yourself. I can't slot JDG into either of those 2 scenarios.

I also think if JDG was as good at holding the ball and linking up with players as some people claim then Frei would distribute the ball through Cann or Nana to JDG instead of always hoofing it up the field.

P-NUTZ
09-15-2010, 02:25 PM
And im mad because he professionally has underachieved here based on his hype, but he's first to say after the coaches dismissal that the tactics and system provided failed, not his under performance.

i worry he learned how to whine and bullshit a lot in europe.

We dont need him - we need a better him.

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 02:28 PM
^^ no you can't fault him for taking the $$.

I just figure a guy like DeRo has made Barrett a better player. If DeRo goes today Chad regresses in his ability and goes back to almost worthless.

I don't see who JDG is making better. In a team sport like this one I figure you need to be able to make your teammates look and play better or you need to be able to do it all yourself. I can't slot JDG into either of those 2 scenarios.

I also think if JDG was as good at holding the ball and linking up with players as some people claim then Frei would distribute the ball through Cann or Nana to JDG instead of always hoofing it up the field.

That counts on Cann or Nana to be able to pass it to him, something we haven't seen.

Now for the record, JDG "checked out" in the DC game. He played like crap. However, in most of our games, JDG does make players look much better. Not our offense, rather our defense.

You only had to watch the NY game to see how much we need him.

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 02:30 PM
And im mad because he professionally has underachieved here based on his hype, but he's first to say after the coaches dismissal that the tactics and system provided failed, not his under performance.

i worry he learned how to whine and bullshit a lot in europe.

We dont need him - we need a better him.

You call it bullshit when you've never seen him play under Daso? I call bullshit to your comment.

If he doesn't show up in the next couple of games, sure write him off. It's unwise to not give him any chance under another regime.

TFC Via Buffalo
09-15-2010, 02:30 PM
JDG for the money he's making at a DP spot: Bad

JDG making top money ($400k) but not taking DP spot: Good

JDG in the line up: Good:

JDG not in the line up: Bad

There is a HUGE difference between the way we play with him and without him. We look terrible when he's not in. Is he playing to his potential? Not really. Is he better then any other current option? Yep. If there is a way to get someone just as good or a little worse then JDG and not blow a DP spot and $400k, I'm for it. If it's a non DP spot at $400k, keep him around. But we still need him in the line up right now to have a shot at getting into the playoffs and advancing in the CCL.

Dave67
09-15-2010, 02:32 PM
That counts on Cann or Nana to be able to pass it to him, something we haven't seen.

Now for the record, JDG "checked out" in the DC game. He played like crap. However, in most of our games, JDG does make players look much better. Not our offense, rather our defense.

You only had to watch the NY game to see how much we need him.

"That counts on Cann or Nana to be able to pass it to him, something we haven't seen."

I don't honestly recall many times Frei goes to anyone at the back to really test my own linking theory. I don't know if that is Frei's problem or the defenders. It does seem like not too many of our back line move around to give Frei options.

Ageroo
09-15-2010, 02:43 PM
"That counts on Cann or Nana to be able to pass it to him, something we haven't seen."

I don't honestly recall many times Frei goes to anyone at the back to really test my own linking theory. I don't know if that is Frei's problem or the defenders. It does seem like not too many of our back line move around to give Frei options.

very true....not sure why he likes to boot it up field all the time. Yes he does have a great kick but sometimes to no one. Maybe it is lack of confidence in who he is passing it to...but who knows

Super
09-15-2010, 02:44 PM
It's not so much that I disprove of JDG as a player, and I understand that he's only taking $335 grand off the cap, but if TFC is going to shell out close to 2 million bucks on a player then I'd rather it was on either a striker or an attacking midfielder. A defensive midfielder just doesn't have enough impact in this league to warrant a DP spot - in my opinion.

scooter
09-15-2010, 02:47 PM
i voted yes for now but he needs to ramp his play up
and stop passing to the other team ffs
saturday i counted 4

but give him a chance if preki suppressed the players as much as
is being claimed let him show us his stuff

starting tonight

Oldtimer
09-15-2010, 02:48 PM
It's not so much that I disprove of JDG as a player, and I understand that he's only taking $335 grand off the cap, but if TFC is going to shell out close to 2 million bucks on a player then I'd rather it was on either a striker or an attacking midfielder. A defensive midfielder just doesn't have enough impact in this league to warrant a DP spot - in my opinion.


... a valid point. JDG should have been our second or third DP, not our first.

NewcastleFan
09-15-2010, 02:49 PM
I don't think he should stay. He definatly hasn't been as effective in Toronto as he was in La Liga. I think a large part of that problem was the fact that, because of his physical size, he just couldn't be as effective in a more physical league, like MLS.

That said, he's a still a decent midfielder in this league. He has a lot more skill than most of our other players. Unfortunatly, a player like him needs viable options to pass to, and that's something that this team really doesn't have. This translates to him not being able to utilize his full talent. And when he's taking up a DP slot and making the most money on the team, he has to be able to be much more effective than he's playing right now.

Parkdale
09-15-2010, 02:50 PM
I would be much happier with JDG as our DP if we also had a DP striker who could average a goal every 2 games (or better)

wzhxvy
09-15-2010, 02:55 PM
We have 3 freaking DP spots...why dont we worry about filling those spots first and then we can be critical of the choices made with DPs...(I realize Mista is a DP but he is hear for a short time based on his half a season contract).

I personally I am glad he is making a ton of money...why not...that should be a great motivation tool to young Canadians who dont think they can make money at home...his cap hit is 400K or less, and yes he is worth 400K out of our cap.

TFC Cityboy
09-15-2010, 02:56 PM
JDG has been a massive disappointment, without a doubt.
Last season he was not fit. This season he claims that Preki's system stifled him and others.
I saw JDG play some great football for Canada while was with Depor...I can only hope we see the best of him from tonight onwards.

TFCRegina
09-15-2010, 03:01 PM
He's been disappointing BUT the last thing we need is even more player turnover. If we send JDG out, who do we bring in that's a free agent? Can we really afford to dump JDG, Peterson, Scano, Usanov, OBW, Ibrahim (among others) all at the same time?

JDG is probably the most skilled out of that whole bunch and provides things to the team more often than any of those others.

Pookie
09-15-2010, 03:17 PM
We have 3 freaking DP spots...why dont we worry about filling those spots first and then we can be critical of the choices made with DPs...(I realize Mista is a DP but he is hear for a short time based on his half a season contract).

Well, technically we have 3 if we are willing to pay a $250k luxury tax in order to secure the 3rd slot.

The facts are that MLSE is willing to spend $2.7M on 2 slots. Are we getting the best possible use out of that money and roster spot?

I'm with Georg(i)eBest on this one. Evaluate all the games.

When I saw JDG playing the role of a Sweeper in the last 5-10 mins of the DC United game in which we needed to score 2, it solidified the view that his DP tag was a Mo'stake. (<-- see what I did there?)

Maybe we wouldn't have got him without that tag. Most likely we wouldn't have got him if ANY club in Europe had been willing to sign him. He held out as long as he possibly could for an offer from a club other than TFC.

That's what will make moving him out on a transfer very difficult. It wasn't like the offers were pouring in (for reasons other than his skill).

Gazza
09-15-2010, 03:20 PM
He should never have been signed to DP money. Not because he's not attack-minded, but because all he really does well is shadow the opposition.

JDG gives the ball away needlessly on a regular basis. His ball distribution is atrocious. He's responsible for way too many turnovers. And like i said, he shadows players well and runs them down well, but he can't tackle worth a shite and when he attempts to tackle, he ends up on the turf with the attacking player skipping away from him.

In Spain and Germany, his best games came when you didn't notice him on the field. So maybe it WAS Preki's system, like he said. But we'll find that out soon enough. And this is just my two cents, but DeRosario is the most skilled player on the CMNT.

Technorgasm
09-15-2010, 03:30 PM
Please do not forget that his wife and children are living in Germany. . . . .

Azerban
09-15-2010, 03:34 PM
but he has so much vision

he's playing 3d chess while other players are playing tic-tac-toe

supersaint
09-15-2010, 03:41 PM
I support JDG. Next time you're at a game, watch *just* JDG, he observes play on a level higher than most others, transition from defense to offense is funneled through him, and is often double / triple marked.

The are many problems on this team. JDG is not one of them.
Agreed. I still think there is a lot of potential to be unleashed from JDG at this level.

Pookie
09-15-2010, 03:43 PM
Please do not forget that his wife and children are living in Germany. . . . .

Didn't know that... verified or rumour?

Gazza
09-15-2010, 03:48 PM
but he has so much vision

he's playing 3d chess while other players are playing tic-tac-toe


Ah yes, always 2 plays ahead of everyone else. If we could only get the rest of the team to catch up to his rapier-like ball movement and thought process;).

Beach_Red
09-15-2010, 03:48 PM
Well, technically we have 3 if we are willing to pay a $250k luxury tax in order to secure the 3rd slot.

The facts are that MLSE is willing to spend $2.7M on 2 slots. Are we getting the best possible use out of that money and roster spot?

I'm with Georg(i)eBest on this one. Evaluate all the games.

When I saw JDG playing the role of a Sweeper in the last 5-10 mins of the DC United game in which we needed to score 2, it solidified the view that his DP tag was a Mo'stake. (<-- see what I did there?)

Maybe we wouldn't have got him without that tag. Most likely we wouldn't have got him if ANY club in Europe had been willing to sign him. He held out as long as he possibly could for an offer from a club other than TFC.

That's what will make moving him out on a transfer very difficult. It wasn't like the offers were pouring in (for reasons other than his skill).


That's what makes getting a DP on the cheap a waste of money - go big or go home.

Preki was right, there's no point in spending $2.7 million on two DPs, it's no-man's-land, it's not enough to get an impact player but too much for a team player.

It's these kind of timid, one-step-a-time, cautious, accuntant's approach moves that doom the team (and any GM/coach who takes the job).

Pachuco
09-15-2010, 03:48 PM
We looked terrible when NY played us here in Toronto and JDG wasn't in the game.
We've looked terrible many other games while JDG was on the field.
We've looked good with JDG off the field.

So what? a single game where JDG was missing means fuck all because he wans't on the field to prove whether he would've made a difference. Oh, and for those of you wondering, it's only his fault he was missing that game, no other. So even if you spin it that way isn't it still his fault for getting suspended and missing yet another game?

Ultra & Proud
09-15-2010, 03:52 PM
I like JDG and he is a good DM but I'd like him a lot more if he had a salary like Robinson had and wasn't counted as a DP. Cue the Claudio Lopez salary cut.

twistedchinaman
09-15-2010, 04:21 PM
stay but definately not DP money,
he needs to take the Claudio Lopez pay cut!

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000....

habstfc
09-15-2010, 04:41 PM
Claudio Lopez was expected to contribute alot more offensively that's why he took a pay cut. JDG is just as much responsible making TFC better defensively as Cann or Attakora.

Davenport
09-15-2010, 06:12 PM
For the stupid money he gets he does nothing for this team.

WHITEY
09-15-2010, 06:17 PM
Worst signing Mo every made. Yes worse then Andy Welsh cause at least Andy wasn't making so much money. Look around this league and see what DP's are supposed to be doing. Potting goals. Not running around the middle of the park making soft challanges.

LMFAO man this place never ceases to amaze me...WOW!

werewolf
09-15-2010, 06:19 PM
^ stop trolling and get ready for practice.

WHITEY
09-15-2010, 06:21 PM
^ stop trolling and get ready for practice.

LOL working die night shaft GM, no practice for me tonight.

FootieChick
09-15-2010, 06:54 PM
I honestly am not his biggest fan, he screws up too much. But I do see that he wasn't taken on by our team to score goals, he's a defensive mid. We have other defensive mids, in my opinion that are just as good or close to just as good as he is and get paid peanuts compared to him.

I say keep him, get rid of his DP status... give him until the end of season or 2 months into the next season and if he doesn't improve, ship him off. But what we do need are DP's that can put the ball in the net.

WHITEY
09-15-2010, 07:07 PM
I honestly am not his biggest fan, he screws up too much. But I do see that he wasn't taken on by our team to score goals, he's a defensive mid. We have other defensive mids, in my opinion that are just as good or close to just as good as he is and get paid peanuts compared to him.

I say keep him, get rid of his DP status... give him until the end of season or 2 months into the next season and if he doesn't improve, ship him off. But what we do need are DP's that can put the ball in the net.

Who is as good as JDG in the defensive mid posistion on this team?

jazzy
09-15-2010, 07:15 PM
Your understanding of the DP rule - or rather, lack of - is amusing. DPs aren't signed to score goals, DP forwards are. Yes, many teams sign forwards or wingers as DPs but that doesn't make it exclusive to those positions. If someone signed Lucio or Puyol, using your logic, they'd have to score goals to be considered successful?

De Guzman is not a goalscorer nor was he brought in as one. He's a defensive midfielder. Hence discrediting him for lacking goals is madness. He should stay because he does the ugly, unappreciative role well, because, let's face it, DM's play a very ugly game. Makalele was no Ronaldinho...

Interestingly enough heard Paul James on the fan 590 last week offering the opinion he isn't even a defensive midfielder....esp in MLS where strength can be an issue.....he runs around too much dipsee doodling..(my words) with not enough ball control ......or effective passing..I'm getting tired of "defensive midfielder" wall of defense, one should always be versatile no matter what your position, or is this the answer, he isn't versatile enough

raj100
09-15-2010, 07:22 PM
for the record, deguz was a bad signing in my opinion
BUT
to his credit, even if he is a defensive midfielder, no one player can make a defense as poor as ours good, its that simple
defending is all about being a single unit, rarely does a defensive player win games for his or her team, its just that simple a player cant be everywhere on the pitch, so bringing in a defensive midfielder as the flashy DP was never gunna work.

and from now on DP forwards or attacking players should only be brought in, because an attacking player can always make something out of nothing, whereas defensive players dont always have that luxury

Pookie
09-15-2010, 08:34 PM
I say keep him, get rid of his DP status... give him until the end of season or 2 months into the next season and if he doesn't improve, ship him off. But what we do need are DP's that can put the ball in the net.

But you can't get rid of the DP status unless he takes a $1.3M pay cut. Without the DP status, the most he can be paid is just over $400,000 per year per MLS' league maximum (for non-DPs).

TFCREDNWHITE
09-15-2010, 10:49 PM
I thought he is only getting 900k or 1million USD....

Pookie
09-15-2010, 10:52 PM
Nope. $1,717,546

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/june_14_2010_salary_information__by_club.pdf

rocker
09-15-2010, 11:06 PM
I thought he is only getting 900k or 1million USD....

that was his salary in 2009.

druid
09-16-2010, 01:06 AM
I think this article should be required reading before posting in this thread:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/30/central-midfield-role/

Auzzy
09-16-2010, 02:22 AM
^ Very good article. So after reading that:

- I don't think that JDG is a very good interceptor of passes. One of the best at that on TFC for sure -- but that doesn't mean much. I think he's just not at a DP level in that important aspect. Often, I'm watching the game, thinking, man it's freaking obvious where the opponents are going to send the next pass. But JDG often doesn't position himself well for that, and sometimes just doesn't seem to try very hard to pick off those passes. Maybe, freed from the burden of Preki, and not trying to do too much, he can get better at interceptions. Maybe.

- Not sure about JDG's passing either. Still too many easy bad passes, even when better passes were available. Sure, his passing is more dependent on his teammates (normally inept) positioning, but still. Even with better players around him, in Canada vs. Peru, we saw some more of the same.

I'll wait until I have a chance to watch all those videos before I say more about Julian's passing. But it's obvious, TFC also doesn't have the supporting players to let JDG really play the role as outlined in the article. No reliable wingers for those sideway passers; and no reliable attacking-minded forward distributor. (DeRo often plays AM, but isn't a reliable distributor. Too often he runs into a cloud of opponents, even when an easier/better pass was possible early.)

druid
09-16-2010, 08:35 AM
^ Very good article. So after reading that:

- I don't think that JDG is a very good interceptor of passes. One of the best at that on TFC for sure -- but that doesn't mean much. I think he's just not at a DP level in that important aspect. Often, I'm watching the game, thinking, man it's freaking obvious where the opponents are going to send the next pass. But JDG often doesn't position himself well for that, and sometimes just doesn't seem to try very hard to pick off those passes. Maybe, freed from the burden of Preki, and not trying to do too much, he can get better at interceptions. Maybe.

- Not sure about JDG's passing either. Still too many easy bad passes, even when better passes were available. Sure, his passing is more dependent on his teammates (normally inept) positioning, but still. Even with better players around him, in Canada vs. Peru, we saw some more of the same.

I'll wait until I have a chance to watch all those videos before I say more about Julian's passing. But it's obvious, TFC also doesn't have the supporting players to let JDG really play the role as outlined in the article. No reliable wingers for those sideway passers; and no reliable attacking-minded forward distributor. (DeRo often plays AM, but isn't a reliable distributor. Too often he runs into a cloud of opponents, even when an easier/better pass was possible early.)

A huge part role is also touch and close control. Last night he took a number of high or awkward hospital passes, <cough>Saric<cough>, and turned them into beautiful forward movement. It's too bad DeRo was having such a stinker.

habstfc
09-16-2010, 08:48 AM
Good post druid. Maybe this will inform some of the ignorant people on these boards.

Wull
09-16-2010, 08:54 AM
Disagreeing with you doesn't make us ignorant, the article sums up the DM position pretty well, doesn't make him any good at it in a TFC shirt

habstfc
09-16-2010, 08:58 AM
If you disagree with me , you're disagreeing with the article.

Juanito
09-16-2010, 09:01 AM
I think that BOTH De Gúzman and De Rosario should be evaluated over the winter. I don't think either one can help carry this team forward.

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 09:01 AM
If you disagree with me , you're disagreeing with the article.

That's actually the most ignorant posting I've seen in this thread. You don't listen to what people say. You are now the minority buddy, the only ignorant fuck in here is you.

I don't mind that people support JDG, but fuck off with calling people ignorant who disagree with you.

I liked the article, like everything in it, but it has nothing to do with me judging what JDG does for this team. Except that everything in the article that Makele and thre rest of the guys do well JDG sucks at.

__wowza
09-16-2010, 09:10 AM
yeahhh, i'm getting kinda sick of this whole "he's a DM, you don't know what a defensive mid is for!" song and dance i've seen here.

he doesn't:
- score goals
- intercept passes
- complete passes
- create plays
- defend very well
- warrant the price tag

habstfc
09-16-2010, 09:13 AM
Pachuco you are clown. The whole article basically agrees with everything I've been saying all year in here with regards to what he's expected to do and what he's not expected to do. Read it again bonehead. I laugh at the way some of you guys in here sound off about shit, knowing that when you say things you are obviously full of it. Now this article pretty much puts you in your place. I don't have any issue with anyone disagreeing with my opinions (it happens all the time) but when assanine shit is repeated over and over and over sometimes it's hard to take. Why are you even on these boards, 90 % of your posts are negative , I thought these boards were for supporters? You sound like a very angry person in general, for all that negativity to flow so freely from your mouth. You're the one that picks fights with everyone who doesn't agree with YOUR opinions not me. Laughable...

habstfc
09-16-2010, 09:18 AM
It's obvious alot of people are hung up on the amount of money he makes ( ok fine I get that) and that he doesn't score goals. Like I said re-read the article.

Wull
09-16-2010, 09:22 AM
It's obvious alot of people are hung up on the amount of money he makes ( ok fine I get that) and that he doesn't score goals. Like I said re-read the article.

he doesn't do any of the article particularly well is what we're saying! :picard:

dow117
09-16-2010, 09:26 AM
I dont know which game some of these folks are watching. JDG is more involved than any other player and worth every penny. !!!

habstfc
09-16-2010, 09:27 AM
So you are saying, that the role is different for tfc than a major club in england?

Wull
09-16-2010, 09:33 AM
So you are saying, that the role is different for tfc than a major club in england?

No, I'm saying he doesn't do any of the main points very well. Had the article listed "get dumped on your ass", "shit out of or go in half-hearted on 50/50s", pass the ball to the opposition frequently or pass the ball to a teammate who is in too bad of a position to receive it then he'd be perfect in the role!

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 09:42 AM
Pachuco you are clown. The whole article basically agrees with everything I've been saying all year in here with regards to what he's expected to do and what he's not expected to do. Read it again bonehead. I laugh at the way some of you guys in here sound off about shit, knowing that when you say things you are obviously full of it. Now this article pretty much puts you in your place. I don't have any issue with anyone disagreeing with my opinions (it happens all the time) but when assanine shit is repeated over and over and over sometimes it's hard to take. Why are you even on these boards, 90 % of your posts are negative , I thought these boards were for supporters? You sound like a very angry person in general, for all that negativity to flow so freely from your mouth. You're the one that picks fights with everyone who doesn't agree with YOUR opinions not me. Laughable...

Really? find me a fucking post where I picked a fight with you until you called me ignorant? You think 90% of my shit is negative because you disagree with it. There was four things I've been negative about this year.

* Preki's anti-football mentality will get us knowhere(well if that isn't proven yet I don't know what to tell ya).

* Mo sucks (Don't think anybody disagrees with that one).

* JDG isn't effective on this team.

* Don't like some of the player preki brought in (and alot of other people don't either)

For the article to prove me wrong about JDG then that means you have to have some proof that JDG actually contributes to this team. Kinda like Makelele did for Real Madrid. You have to be able to demonstrate it but you can't. Simple as that.

BTW - I'm a very happy person, just a passionate one when I speak. That type of shit comes off as angry over a forum.

habstfc
09-16-2010, 10:01 AM
In my opinion I don't think he has played that badly (how do you think he played last night out of curiosity). In your opinion you think he has been utter shit, I don't think he has been. As far as my perception of your negativity, I think you can be negative about being anti mo or anti preki or anti JDG, fine thats your opinion, it's repeating the same thing over and over that rubs me the wrong way.

Wull
09-16-2010, 10:04 AM
In my opinion I don't think he has played that badly (how do you think he played last night out of curiosity). In your opinion you think he has been utter shit, I don't think he has been. As far as my perception of your negativity, I think you can be negative about being anti mo or anti preki or anti JDG, fine thats your opinion, it's repeating the same thing over and over that rubs me the wrong way.

he's seeing the same thing from pro-jdg supporters too and we find it irritating. Let's just stick to the topic and not get personal or start with the name-calling or psycho-analyzing. After all, we all only want what's best for :scarf:

nascarguy
09-16-2010, 10:09 AM
I voted no only because I would have liked to see the DP role used at another position.

As for keeping him...I say absolutely yes. He's a great player

The title of this thread and the choices on the poll don't mesh.

Stay or Go and Happy he is the DP or not are 2 completely different questions.
yeah

Carts
09-16-2010, 10:12 AM
In my opinion I don't think he has played that badly (how do you think he played last night out of curiosity). In your opinion you think he has been utter shit, I don't think he has been. As far as my perception of your negativity, I think you can be negative about being anti mo or anti preki or anti JDG, fine thats your opinion, it's repeating the same thing over and over that rubs me the wrong way.

Not too jump into your guys convo, but my thoughts on the post above...

Do I think JDG has been utter shit? NO...

BUT...

Do I think JDG is worthy of a DP slot? NO...

AND...

Do I think JDG is worthy of $3m pricetag in MLS? NO...

HOWEVER...

Do I think DP money is properly used, in the MLS, on a defensive mid? NO...

SO...

Does that put JDG in a tough spot to begin with? YES...

WITH THAT SAID...

Should JDG remain on our club in his current DP role / salary? NO...

BUT REMEMBER...

Even in saying he's not DP wothy, is he a very talented footballer? YES...

SO...

Who takes the blame? MLSE & Mo...

Using a DP slot & huge money on a defensive midfield, in a league that is shit-ass unorganized on the pitch is FOOLISH - one man can only do so much...

It would be like using money on a DP keeper, and expecting him to save everything - because he's a DP keeper.

The best keeper in the world isn't stopping 2-on-0's, strikes from 5-yards out etc - that doesn't make them shit - but it does make them NOT DP WORTHY if they are NOT MAKING A HUGE IMPACT on the match...

In the end, DP's are human, one human, and football is a team sport...

You need to use your money & DP slot on positions that will impact the game IN A MAJOR WAY in your favour...

Carts...

habstfc
09-16-2010, 10:16 AM
I think there are many supporters who have it in their heads that because he's not scoring goals he's not helping this team. I hear it EVERY game. I'm calling those people ignorant, I'm sorry but they are. The article pointed out the fact that you don't have to score goals or make every tackle etc. to be an effective DM that's all I'm saying. The fact is that JDG touches the ball more than anyone during the game for tfc so it's not a complete shocker that some passes go astray or that he's dispossesed of the ball. If you don't like the guy that's okay, but you have to admit most of the negativity being said about the guy evolves around not scoring and the amount of money he makes. You can blame everyone but him for that fact, from mo all the way up to the board at mlse that approved it.

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 10:34 AM
In my opinion I don't think he has played that badly (how do you think he played last night out of curiosity). In your opinion you think he has been utter shit, I don't think he has been. As far as my perception of your negativity, I think you can be negative about being anti mo or anti preki or anti JDG, fine thats your opinion, it's repeating the same thing over and over that rubs me the wrong way.

I thought he was the best player on the pitch until Mista got the red. If you go back through the game thread you'll see what I'm saying. All of a sudden, he put his head down, started letting guys jog by him while he turned away from the ball. He was the first player to give up last night. It really bugs me that our highest paid player calls it quits so easily. It's not the first time I've seen JDG do that. It seems like as long as the team is playing well he plays well, not the other way around.

That's one of the biggest differences with him and Dero. Dero has been known to pick up this team when everyone else has lost hope, that's a leader in my mind. JDG is far from a leader. BTW - Dero was horrible last night, I may like the guy, but I'm not blind.

You just need to seriously realize that there are a shit load of people who understand exactly what a DM brings to the table. And there are a shit load of people who are judging De Guzman as the DM he's supposed to be.

As far as sometimes making comments that De Guzman doesn't score goals, that's because he doesn't always play in the DM role. Many times this year he has been asked to play a more advanced midfield role. He has an inability to adapt to that role, meaning he's very much a one dimensional player who can really only play 1 role on the team and some of us don't even think he does that job all that well.

The MLS is also a different beast. When you spend a ton of the salary cap on a single player that player has to be somewhat versatile or incredibly good at what he does.

Oh, and you rub me the wrong way too, but you can't deny you are the first one to launch the insults every time you and I get in a heated discussion.

__wowza
09-16-2010, 10:34 AM
I think there are many supporters who have it in their heads that because he's not scoring goals he's not helping this team. I hear it EVERY game. I'm calling those people ignorant, I'm sorry but they are. The article pointed out the fact that you don't have to score goals or make every tackle etc. to be an effective DM that's all I'm saying. The fact is that JDG touches the ball more than anyone during the game for tfc so it's not a complete shocker that some passes go astray or that he's dispossesed of the ball. If you don't like the guy that's okay, but you have to admit most of the negativity being said about the guy evolves around not scoring and the amount of money he makes. You can blame everyone but him for that fact, from mo all the way up to the board at mlse that approved it.

no, a DM is not relied on to score goals.
they net the odd one every now and again, but it's not their primary duty. i haven't seen very many arguments stating that. i mentioned it, but that's in a "if the guy can't do anything else, the least he can do is score and he doesn't even do that" sense.

he's not worth the money for what he puts out on the field. see my other post.

__wowza
09-16-2010, 10:36 AM
And there are a shit load of people who are judging De Guzman as the DM he's supposed to be.

^this.

Fort York Redcoat
09-16-2010, 10:36 AM
^^^ There have also been instances (at Chicago) when JDG has the only shot but doesn't take it.

To me that's a simple question of leadership. You know it's not your job but you do it anyway for the team.

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 10:42 AM
And one important stat to throw out, it was only like 3 games ago that I checked the shots stat for TFC players and JDG was tied with Labrocca for shots this year. You tell me how a player who has supposively been tied to the DM position and is supposed to concentrate on the dirty work only is third on the team in shots. That's because he's not always a DM in Preki's lineups. He's a central midfielder, box to box midfielder when paired up with Nane usually plays in the more advanced role.

algieb
09-16-2010, 10:59 AM
lol. you're a joke with little or no understanding of soccer.



oh god no.
jdg is to small not not strong enough,tracking back record is not great ,gets pushed off ball 80 off time ,has a nose bleed if near opposition goal,loves playing in triangles at the touchline,great at square balls,iff i missed anthing feel free,def not worth the money tfc pay him

Fort York Redcoat
09-16-2010, 11:05 AM
And one important stat to throw out, it was only like 3 games ago that I checked the shots stat for TFC players and JDG was tied with Labrocca for shots this year. You tell me how a player who has supposively been tied to the DM position and is supposed to concentrate on the dirty work only is third on the team in shots. That's because he's not always a DM in Preki's lineups. He's a central midfielder, box to box midfielder when paired up with Nane usually plays in the more advanced role.

In your opinion was that more Preki's M.O. trying to make JDG something he's not to fit his plan or did Preki not believe we had the capacity for distribution to attacking midfielders. That would seem strange to me since JDG and DeRo have been working together for quite some time now.

scooter
09-16-2010, 11:13 AM
why do you think he is not still in europe

the end

algieb
09-16-2010, 11:16 AM
did that a few times, saw him get dumped on his ass numerous times, fail to win tackles, pass the ball to the opposition or pass the ball to a teammate who was in too tight a position to receive it. The best part about his game was his lateral movement when he didn't have the ball
llf the whole truth abt an average player vastly overpaid

Oldtimer
09-16-2010, 11:32 AM
'Cart's post makes the most sense in what is a thread filled with varied opinions.

Rudi
09-16-2010, 11:37 AM
There have been several cases, including Claudio Lopez and Luis Landin, of players coming in as DPs then renegotiating at a much lower wage, so that's not the case.
Neither of those players actually did that.

Lopez's DP contract was finished, and he negotiated a new one.

Landin was only a DP last year because of the loan/transfer fee (can't remember which one) impacted his hit against the salary cap. His actual wage was lower than a DP amount. This year he was no longer a DP, and he sucked so much that he was sent packing by Houston.

algieb
09-16-2010, 11:41 AM
No, I'm saying he doesn't do any of the main points very well. Had the article listed "get dumped on your ass", "shit out of or go in half-hearted on 50/50s", pass the ball to the opposition frequently or pass the ball to a teammate who is in too bad of a position to receive it then he'd be perfect in the role!
llf de gusman to a t

habstfc
09-16-2010, 11:46 AM
First off I've only had maybe one or two heated discussions with you on these boards and it was about the same thing. In general I think he's getting a bad rap from people for things I've stated earlier. Blame Mo or anselmi or whoever for the money he makes, I don't know why that's even an issue as far as I'm concerned, people think he should be superman for that amount of money. When people hear DP they automatically think of a goal scorer, every DP in the league is an offensively minded player except for JDG and now marques.

C'mon pachuco you start shit with everybody in here.

I actually agree with you on certain things like dero palying as an out and out striker. Whether you like it or not we are stuck with him and his contract for another year so I don't know why this thread was even started.

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 12:02 PM
First off I've only had maybe one or two heated discussions with you on these boards and it was about the same thing. In general I think he's getting a bad rap from people for things I've stated earlier. Blame Mo or anselmi or whoever for the money he makes, I don't know why that's even an issue as far as I'm concerned, people think he should be superman for that amount of money. When people hear DP they automatically think of a goal scorer, every DP in the league is an offensively minded player except for JDG and now marques.

C'mon pachuco you start shit with everybody in here.

I actually agree with you on certain things like dero palying as an out and out striker. Whether you like it or not we are stuck with him and his contract for another year so I don't know why this thread was even started.

If you are directing this at me (which seems to be the case since you are directing everything else in your post at me) then you are simply choosing to ignore everything I say. I can't have a conversation with someone who chooses to ignore everything that comes out of my mouth, there's no sense.

habstfc
09-16-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm not choosing to ignore anything you say, rather I'm choosing not to continue a conversation that's going nowhere. You have your opinions, I have mine. I'll leave it at that.

The bolded statement you highlighted was a statement directed at everybody who has the money related issue in their heads.

Ageroo
09-16-2010, 12:28 PM
Agree to disagree Pachuco and habstfc.........both have seemed to settle down for the most part....no more back and forth please and thank you....consider this a gentle reminder for both of you. :)

And for the rest please remember to keep the thread a chuggin'.....if you want to argue points back and forth please keep things civil.......

grizzle
09-16-2010, 12:34 PM
I think he is a decent player, but not sure he fits well with the team and he gets way too many fouls. WIth that said, I say get rid of him and bring on 2 DPs at half his salary, but after seeing the way this team makes decisions I'm sure they'll probably end up giving the 3rd DP spot to Garcia.

habstfc
09-16-2010, 01:00 PM
You just can't get rid of him, he's under contract, a guaranteed one at that, until the end of next season. Where are all these DP's everyone is talking abou?. You can't kidnap people and bring them here against their wishes because we need a striker or winger etc. There is no DP fairy we can call upon to bring us one.

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 01:01 PM
It's quite simple to get rid of a player who is on a guaranteed contract. TFC's done it every year, every team does it.

habstfc
09-16-2010, 01:07 PM
Not at 1.7 million they haven't. Fringe players yes, but not with that kind of money that would have to be honoured. Who would you replace him with, if you have to pay him anyway?

Blizzard
09-16-2010, 01:17 PM
You just can't get rid of him, he's under contract, a guaranteed one at that, until the end of next season.

Exactly. Too many people go on and on about drop him, get rid of him, he's a bum ... trade him (WTF???) and so on.

Stop living in dream land and start thinking in real terms. Certain players are on contract that for one reason or another will not be moved. Some because they're possibly being paid too much, some because they aren't good enough to attract interest.

Either way, they are here and we have to make the best of the situation.

Pookie
09-16-2010, 02:18 PM
^

The new CBA provides for guaranteed contracts for all players who are at least 24 years old with three years of MLS service.

JDG might not fall into the "guaranteed" category


To the folks that keep suggesting JDG come back but as a non-DP, it is virtually impossible. Without the DP tag, his maximum salary is just over $400k per MLS rules. So, unless he is forced to take a $1.3M pay cut, it ain't happening.

Plus, if he plays better with a smile on his face, I'll bet that a $1.3M pay cut wouldn't leave him in happyland.

Thrillos
09-16-2010, 02:21 PM
I don't know how people don't like him, just for the fact as on the books he gets 4 hundred something is more than a small enough cap hit to have him on the field. If you guys just watched and took note of all the little things he does you would see the difference he makes when he is on the field.

He is the only guy that is constantly on the move to find open space when he does not have ball at his feet. He provides an outlet for our back four and our wingers (which finally showed last night they will start to get more width under Daso which I can't express how happy I am about this, but i digress) which is not there when he is not on the field, hence the drubbing we took against red bull that ended our home stretch.

Speaking of that game, even if Marquez hadn't have scored that wonder goal he would have been my man of the match for the sole reason he provides the red bulls with exactly what De Guzman provides us. The constant outlet and distribution.

I thought he was our best player on the field last night and it amazes me so many people can't see that. We got killed in the score line but I am soooo much happier watching that game exactly how it played out than watching a game of prekiball where we were "close" by a 1-0 score line. Although we broke out of our own half twice during the 90 minutes.......

Oldtimer
09-16-2010, 02:39 PM
^

The new CBA provides for guaranteed contracts for all players who are at least 24 years old with three years of MLS service.

JDG might not fall into the "guaranteed" category



TFC almost certainly offered JDG a guaranteed contract.

The CBA requires guaranteed contracts for those players. However, any player who doesn't meet the criteria can be offered a guaranteed contract.

Blizzard
09-16-2010, 02:49 PM
I don't know how people don't like him, just for the fact as on the books he gets 4 hundred something is more than a small enough cap hit to have him on the field. If you guys just watched and took note of all the little things he does you would see the difference he makes when he is on the field.

He is the only guy that is constantly on the move to find open space when he does not have ball at his feet. He provides an outlet for our back four and our wingers (which finally showed last night they will start to get more width under Daso which I can't express how happy I am about this, but i digress) which is not there when he is not on the field, hence the drubbing we took against red bull that ended our home stretch.

Speaking of that game, even if Marquez hadn't have scored that wonder goal he would have been my man of the match for the sole reason he provides the red bulls with exactly what De Guzman provides us. The constant outlet and distribution.

I thought he was our best player on the field last night and it amazes me so many people can't see that. We got killed in the score line but I am soooo much happier watching that game exactly how it played out than watching a game of prekiball where we were "close" by a 1-0 score line. Although we broke out of our own half twice during the 90 minutes.......

This!!!

It's oh so true.

Carts
09-16-2010, 02:50 PM
Speaking of that game, even if Marquez hadn't have scored that wonder goal he would have been my man of the match for the sole reason he provides the red bulls with exactly what De Guzman provides us. The constant outlet and distribution.
......

Have you honestly seen constant outlet & distribution from anyone on TFC....???

I say anyone. No shot at JDG. ANYONE...???

I haven't... Not at all...

Insert "...he runs into space..." and "...the guys aren't where they should be for JDG to pass to them..." comments...

Fact of the matter - we brought in a DP player to make the team better, much better, much much much better if you look at his pricetag in MLS standards - and that hasn't happened...

Are we "better" with him? 100% yes. He's a solid player. But not 1-of-3 DP worthy...

If we had a no-name defensive mid DP, who contributed the same to TFC as Canadian Internationa Julian de Guzman does - everyone would be calling for him to be released...

The love affair with 'JDG the Canadian' continues in a small minority - when it should be 'is our highly paid DP impacting the match in a major way'...?

Not, the guys around him aren't good enough...

Not, he distributes, not his fault the team sucks...

Not, did you see us before, we were worse - but now we still suck just not as much...

DP needs to equal MAJOR IMPACT...

Carts...

H Bomb
09-16-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't know how people don't like him, just for the fact as on the books he gets 4 hundred something is more than a small enough cap hit to have him on the field. If you guys just watched and took note of all the little things he does you would see the difference he makes when he is on the field.

He is the only guy that is constantly on the move to find open space when he does not have ball at his feet. He provides an outlet for our back four and our wingers (which finally showed last night they will start to get more width under Daso which I can't express how happy I am about this, but i digress) which is not there when he is not on the field, hence the drubbing we took against red bull that ended our home stretch.

Speaking of that game, even if Marquez hadn't have scored that wonder goal he would have been my man of the match for the sole reason he provides the red bulls with exactly what De Guzman provides us. The constant outlet and distribution.

I thought he was our best player on the field last night and it amazes me so many people can't see that. We got killed in the score line but I am soooo much happier watching that game exactly how it played out than watching a game of prekiball where we were "close" by a 1-0 score line. Although we broke out of our own half twice during the 90 minutes.......


X10 though. JDG has been very good in the past, and may be again. But while he does run into space and provide a deep option and take the ball from the defense, he also, runs into traffic and gives the ball away too often. Rafa Marquez is a perfect version of what we want JDG to be. He'll never be as good as Marquez though, and that's not a knock on JDG

Pachuco
09-16-2010, 03:01 PM
It would be wise for some of you to stop comparing him to Rafa Marquez, it's only going to make it to easy for me to prove that a player who has played most of his life in a defensive or DM role can actually make an impact offensively in the MLS. Rafa was brought here and instantly convereted into a more typical MLS midfielder. Not just a DM but someone who is versatile enough to join the attack and retract when needed. He is the classic example of why a DM can be succesfull in this league.

His service to the forwards has been exceptional and I haven't missed a single game Rafa has played in. That's one huge piece missing out of JDG's game, his service is as bad as it gets and it limits our ability to penetrate other defenses as he's usually going backwards.

Pookie
09-16-2010, 03:01 PM
carts has it right, IMO

Question for those that have determined he is a very valuable asset.

What do you think you could get for this valuable asset in a trade? If no trade, what would he fetch on the transfer market?

BeerBaron95
09-16-2010, 06:22 PM
Have you honestly seen constant outlet & distribution from anyone on TFC....???

I say anyone. No shot at JDG. ANYONE...???

I haven't... Not at all...

Insert "...he runs into space..." and "...the guys aren't where they should be for JDG to pass to them..." comments...

Fact of the matter - we brought in a DP player to make the team better, much better, much much much better if you look at his pricetag in MLS standards - and that hasn't happened...

Are we "better" with him? 100% yes. He's a solid player. But not 1-of-3 DP worthy...

If we had a no-name defensive mid DP, who contributed the same to TFC as Canadian Internationa Julian de Guzman does - everyone would be calling for him to be released...

The love affair with 'JDG the Canadian' continues in a small minority - when it should be 'is our highly paid DP impacting the match in a major way'...?

Not, the guys around him aren't good enough...

Not, he distributes, not his fault the team sucks...

Not, did you see us before, we were worse - but now we still suck just not as much...

DP needs to equal MAJOR IMPACT...

Carts...


I ABSOFUCKINLUTELY agree with this 100%

The fact that he is a CMNT member has blinders on alot of ppl here as you pointed out Carts.

He is not worth DP $$ or status

If he came back without the tag and salary then fine... but even then i wouldnt be too thrilled about it.

if MLSE threw out even a little bit more $$ im sure they could lure a mid to high calibre player to join the squad... but that has already been discussed to boredum

anyways..... im off to play NHL 11

Thrillos
09-16-2010, 08:20 PM
I wasn't trying to compare Marquez to JDG, he is better and not only on past performances for previous teams but also the important factor that most people on this board seem to be obsessed about, the money. Marquez is what, over 5 million?? thats double Deguz if i'm not mistaken. And I dont' think he is twice as good JDG. Also, its not his fault he has been the only dp up until about 2 months ago. And even then preki has kept Mista off the pitch for most of his time here.

Marquez does go box to box, and he's great at it, but he is also told to do that. Let's get serious, De Guz has done what preki has told him to do up until the firing because he is a professional. A good player will do the role the coach has told him to do, thats why the Manager is the one to go. Its not because its "easier" to fire the coach than the team. The manager is told to go so that a new manager can come in and try new tactics.

Football is a chess game played at high speed, coach's run the tactics therefore make or break a team, a single player can not.

This is why a great manager can do great with any team

Blowing Bubbles
09-16-2010, 10:52 PM
he's not even half the player that Shalrie Joseph is in this league. Yes it's harder for DM to impose his will on a game but you look at how dominant Joseph and Marquez are .......... DeGuzman is not even close to their caliber.

I'd rather he left and we picked up a different DP, but it's not the most important roster decision imo. If he stays fine ..... lets just get someone more effective than Mista in the other DP slot.

This is where the rules of the league in terms of player movement blow ..... it sucks that you can't just headhunt guys like Chad Marshall, Beckerman, Shalrie Joseph, etc and say "come to daddy we'll give you guys DP money".

Roogsy
09-17-2010, 12:23 AM
he's not even half the player that Shalrie Joseph is in this league.

Shit there's a thought. Maybe we should have given NE whatever they wanted for Joseph and given him a raise. I bet it still wouldn't have cost 1.7mill per year.

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 07:10 AM
he's not even half the player that Shalrie Joseph is in this league. Yes it's harder for DM to impose his will on a game but you look at how dominant Joseph and Marquez are .......... DeGuzman is not even close to their caliber.

I'd rather he left and we picked up a different DP, but it's not the most important roster decision imo. If he stays fine ..... lets just get someone more effective than Mista in the other DP slot.

This is where the rules of the league in terms of player movement blow ..... it sucks that you can't just headhunt guys like Chad Marshall, Beckerman, Shalrie Joseph, etc and say "come to daddy we'll give you guys DP money".

Well I am a JDG fan as many know....but just throwing this out there......you call for Sharlie Joseph...correct? Many love him and think he is probably the best DM in the league....which I probably cannot argue......but what has Sharlie Joseph done this season for New England?????? FULL STOP........

NE is behind us in the standings by 4 points........he has 3 more assists than JDG and NE as a team has scored 2 more GF as a team....so he isn't impacting their offence...and NE as a team has allowed 11 more goals against than we have....So if he is imposing his will he surely isn't doing it this season....and yes there are many other contributing factors in NE as to their record and GF and GA.....but as it stands THIS SEASON I'll take JDG over Joseph......Swapping the 2 players on the teams in my opinion makes no difference.

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2010, 07:27 AM
^What are you sayin Ags? That a DM needs to be surrounded by better players to pass to? Outrageous!:rolleyes:

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 07:30 AM
^What are you sayin Ags? That a DM needs to be surrounded by better players to pass to? Outrageous!:rolleyes:

haha........in my opinion both of them are screwed. :D


Waiting patiently for the Carts encyclopedic reply.......;)

Davenport
09-17-2010, 07:47 AM
He's simply not good enough to be a DP....Johnston blew it...it's the worst deal he ever made.

Selling him or getting rid....who in their right mind would take him off TFC's hands for even a 1/4 of the money he's earning ?

menefreghista
09-17-2010, 08:03 AM
Can we even let De Guzman go without taking another hit to our cap?

If we can even find a team in Spain or Germany that would take him on a free transfer how would that affect our cap?

If there is any hit on our cap we may as well keep him.

koryo
09-17-2010, 08:07 AM
carts has it right, IMO

Question for those that have determined he is a very valuable asset.

What do you think you could get for this valuable asset in a trade? If no trade, what would he fetch on the transfer market?

The words "sod" and "all" come to mind. I'm looking at the JDG issue from a strictly pragmatic approach: does getting rid of him make us better, given that we likely wouldn't fetch much for him?

Davenport
09-17-2010, 09:19 AM
The words "sod" and "all" come to mind. I'm looking at the JDG issue from a strictly pragmatic approach: does getting rid of him make us better, given that we likely wouldn't fetch much for him?

When does his contract end ? Just cut him loose after that.
Until then we're stuck with him and his ridiculous salary.
In a good team he'd be a reserve full back....maybe.

Carts
09-17-2010, 09:37 AM
Well I am a JDG fan as many know....but just throwing this out there......you call for Sharlie Joseph...correct? Many love him and think he is probably the best DM in the league....which I probably cannot argue......but what has Sharlie Joseph done this season for New England?????? FULL STOP........

NE is behind us in the standings by 4 points........he has 3 more assists than JDG and NE as a team has scored 2 more GF as a team....so he isn't impacting their offence...and NE as a team has allowed 11 more goals against than we have....So if he is imposing his will he surely isn't doing it this season....and yes there are many other contributing factors in NE as to their record and GF and GA.....but as it stands THIS SEASON I'll take JDG over Joseph......Swapping the 2 players on the teams in my opinion makes no difference.

Unfortunately Age, I have to disagree again... :(

We can agree that both Joseph & JDG have pretty much contributed the same to their respective franchises this season... Little...

Both players also take up basically the same cap space. JDG uses max cap hit as a DP, Joseph makes $400k plus so he takes up the same cap space...

So, there's now a few differences...

JDG takes up a DP slot...
Joseph does not (I beleive)...

JDG makes huge money compared to teammates...
Joseph does not...

So, two benefits New England have:

+ New England can use this said DP slot to bring in someone and IMPROVE their team... TFC can not...

+ New England avoids that ugly (its stupid but it happens) dressing room politics with one player, not having a major impact, making millions more than other teammeats...

It sucks guys, it really does...

I'd love to see all this work out for TFC, for JDG, for us as fans...

But looking from a truly 100% diplomatic view, not being bias one way or the other, not having any personal feelings of being a fan or non-fan of JDG - his status & contract as a DP on our team is NOT working...

Toronto FC must be in the business of WINNING, not of playing favourites b/c fans like this guy or that guy - if what you're doing isn't working, you change it... If what you're doing is actually hindering you from improving (using a DP slot with no impact) you must change it...

It sucks, but its true... :(

Carts...

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 09:50 AM
So, there's now a few differences...

JDG takes up a DP slot...
Joseph does not (I beleive)...

JDG makes huge money compared to teammates...
Joseph does not...

So, two benefits New England have:

+ New England can use this said DP slot to bring in someone and IMPROVE their team... TFC can not...

+ New England avoids that ugly (its stupid but it happens) dressing room politics with one player, not having a major impact, making millions more than other teammeats...

It sucks guys, it really does...

Once again you have trumped me...... ha ha. As I said before I won't argue and say that he is performing up to expectations. I think he is not as well........the only point I disagree with you on is what I have bolded.

I know you know there are 3 DP slots per team........so TFC can bring in another DP. This point really does not add anything to your arguement.

Carts
09-17-2010, 09:55 AM
Once again you have trumped me...... ha ha. As I said before I won't argue and say that he is performing up to expectations. I think he is not as well........the only point I disagree with you on is what I have bolded.

I know you know there are 3 DP slots per team........so TFC can bring in another DP. This point really does not add anything to your arguement.

Yes it does...! Sorry Age...

Taking this situation into a microcosm...

What is better...

Joseph & JDG bring the same to the table. So...

New England w/Joseph & signing 3 DP's...?
Toronto FC w/JDG & signing 2 DP's...?

Who is in the better situation...?

And this isn't even giong into the dressing room garbage...

Carts...

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 10:01 AM
Yes it does...! Sorry Age...

Taking this situation into a microcosm...

What is better...

Joseph & JDG bring the same to the table. So...

New England w/Joseph & signing 3 DP's...?
Toronto FC w/JDG & signing 2 DP's...?

Who is in the better situation...?

And this isn't even giong into the dressing room garbage...

Carts...

We all know NE is not going to sign 3 DP's anytime soon........Lock that in the shed! Toronto on the other hand has the backing to do this.....NE on paper may be in the better situation.....but come on now...microcosm or not.....

Wull
09-17-2010, 10:05 AM
We all know NE is not going to sign 3 DP's anytime soon........Lock that in the shed! Toronto on the other hand has the backing to do this.....NE on paper may be in the better situation.....but come on now...microcosm or not.....

You didn't answer his question: what's the better situation to be in?

Oldtimer
09-17-2010, 10:06 AM
Kraft signing a DP?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

We know that's not going to happen anytime soon. I wouldn't be surprised if the players have to chip in change each week for a "coffee fund," so they can have coffee in the morning!

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 10:09 AM
You didn't answer his question: what's the better situation to be in?


ha ha....very true....For the record, NE has the better situation....BUT big BUT.....How many teams are going to use up all their DP slots.....there is only 1 doing it right now. So in my opinion using that as an arguement is not really adding much. Teams aren't going out and picking DP's off trees...and they certainly are not falling from the sky.

Ageroo
09-17-2010, 10:12 AM
If we were back to the 1 DP per team equation this argument would be a strong one Carts....the fact that any team can sign 3 of them weakens it. But I do understand the point being made........:)

ensco
09-17-2010, 10:24 AM
Vote for JDG and Dero for top MF pairing in MLS!

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/poll-which-best-central-midfield-duo-mls

(or don't because they're not, in the league's view, in the top 5)

ballerz
09-17-2010, 11:31 AM
For all those who is defending JDG by saying his role is not to score, he ain't doing that well for what he is suppose to do!

Thrillos
09-17-2010, 11:54 AM
+ New England can use this said DP slot to bring in someone and IMPROVE their team... TFC can not...




I have to disagree with you on that, they both take up the same cap space to the roster, just because new england hasn't used up a dp slot doesn't mean they can use one. 400k is a big hit, they could be at there salary max. Also JDG isn't stopping us from signing a "better" dp based on your thoughts as we have a 3rd dp slot not being used. He may be stopping us from a 3rd dp by his 400k cap hit (not unlike joseph) but I would much rather see peterson and garcia dropped to get our 400k hit back instead of losing deguz for a another dp.

Carts
09-17-2010, 11:58 AM
I think the reception Robbo got showed we CAN appreciate what goes on in that position, he lived up to his salary compared to the players around him and wasn't money and a DP allocation that could have been better used further up the field. Like it or not that's a huge part of the equation when judging his contribution to this team regardless of who could be/was reached out to and asked to be a DP instead of him

Re-read my post...

Situation was looked at on own as a microcosm, taking away other roster spots etc as me and Age were looking at situations based on certain things...

No worries...

Carts...

Rudi
09-17-2010, 12:49 PM
An interesting quote on this debate from a U-Sector guy that went to Salt Lake on Wednesday for the match:


it's incredible that the RSL fans were able to recognize the quality JDG has and some folks around here still can't. I wonder what it's like watching 90 minutes of football and only seeing half a match? Quite a few RSL guys around us and outside at halftime commented on "the guy with the afro" being one of the MLS' most useful players.

Just throwing it out there, especially since RSL fans are used to a fairly dominant DM with big hair on their own team.

Rudi
09-17-2010, 12:51 PM
Shit there's a thought. Maybe we should have given NE whatever they wanted for Joseph and given him a raise. I bet it still wouldn't have cost 1.7mill per year.
NE didn't even accept a $5 million transfer offer from Celtic for Joseph.

Thrillos
09-17-2010, 02:07 PM
^^ its interesting how not only alot of the fans but even the media is on JDG ass about his "performances"

More than anybody I would say Paul James, the guy is a a great football mind and was a great player but I have heard from too many people that he has got alot of resentment towards alot of people in the soccer community.

daner90
09-17-2010, 02:25 PM
I miss Sammy Cronin.
He could have done exactly what JDG is doing for a fraction of the cost

Rudi
09-17-2010, 03:46 PM
^^ its interesting how not only alot of the fans but even the media is on JDG ass about his "performances"

More than anybody I would say Paul James, the guy is a a great football mind and was a great player but I have heard from too many people that he has got alot of resentment towards alot of people in the soccer community.
Paul James and JDG have personal issues that go back to the 2001 U-20 WC in which PJ was coach and JDG played under him.

PJ seems to have held that grudge for almost a decade.

turnbr
09-17-2010, 04:05 PM
Crab Man has got to go


/Earl

loyola
09-17-2010, 04:06 PM
While I take some of PJ comments with a grain of salt I think most of them about JDG are reasonable. His play has been poor most of the time since he arrived in Toronto and you can also question his attitude with things like missing the curfew or partying in MTL 3 days prior to a crucial WCQ in Chiapas.

If JDG want PJ to stop, it might be in his interest to step up his game in the coming games because so far I won't complain with someone from the media who put some pressure on a player of his talent.

J .
09-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Paul James and JDG have personal issues that go back to the 2001 U-20 WC in which PJ was coach and JDG played under him.

PJ seems to have held that grudge for almost a decade.


I think its becoming clear PJ is right.

J .
09-17-2010, 04:14 PM
An interesting quote on this debate from a U-Sector guy that went to Salt Lake on Wednesday for the match:



Just throwing it out there, especially since RSL fans are used to a fairly dominant DM with big hair on their own team.


Its not about talent. Its about character.

TorCanSoc
09-17-2010, 04:21 PM
Too soon to judge.

Let's see how he plays when he is unleashed. Preki's "system" had him chained.

I'm not so sure he was chained. He rarely made darting runs, or was ever caught deep and out of position. I think he prefers to sit back. Look at Usanov, he thinks he's flanking forward running midfielder. He's always caught deep in their zone, and the system pulls him back. Not so for JDG.

JDG's got skill, I still like him.

Pookie
09-17-2010, 04:26 PM
The words "sod" and "all" come to mind. I'm looking at the JDG issue from a strictly pragmatic approach: does getting rid of him make us better, given that we likely wouldn't fetch much for him?

Addition by subtraction, I guess.

Surprising though that he wouldn't fetch anything on the market IF 60%+ of us are blind to his skill. Surely there is a Manager that would pay something for him.

Surprised that "sod" is the only offer on the table so far. Nothing from the JDG supporters...?

Savage
09-18-2010, 12:26 PM
I think its becoming clear PJ is right.
JDG has not hurt us, but he has had no positive impact that we expected from him as our DP. Lets not get rid of him unless we get someone better. Looks like he is playing himself of the team unless he starts playing like we know he should. At least, sort of like.... Kyle Beckerman?

MG42
09-18-2010, 09:44 PM
JDG was taking a lot of heat from Forrest on the broadcast tonight, can't say I disagree with his thoughts

KezmanCCCC
09-18-2010, 09:46 PM
i think JDG should stay he has a long term contract with the club (3-4 years if im correct) and he needs atleast get one more full season with the club in order for him to get back his form and to really start to think if he should stay or go, we will see what the next coach can do to help bring back his form and make him into a productive player on the team, his work eithic is there and i do belive he is determined to do well for TFC.....

Bars92
09-18-2010, 09:58 PM
The team can only get better with JDG. He is lazy without quality palyers around him, but the team can't get worse having a player of his quality around.

wzhxvy
09-18-2010, 10:15 PM
I wish we could take another poll after this game. I have been supporting JDG from the start but this game broke the camel's back for me. He was utter shite and his decisions were crap, passing awful, tackling poor, vision not there...if we are paying this dude that money to be able to execute cute triangles in our half, then yikes. Oh and btw, learn to cross an fing ball the one time you decide to go on the offensive...disgraceful.

Auzzy
09-18-2010, 10:49 PM
I didn't see this thread until now. As I said in the post-game thread: JDG was so bad tonight it was unbelievable. Not even infinitely remotely DP level. So many easy passes gone wrong, barely any successful tackles or interceptions, constantly getting wrong side of guys he was trying to cover or tackle. And those were the times you could even tell he was on the field.

I was such a JDG booster for so long, but now I'm immensely disappointed. When the time comes for him to stand up & be counted, especially with Preki his supposed nemesis gone, he fails miserably. Sometimes he just looks like a relatively talented 12-year-old playing on a men's team.

Pachuco
09-19-2010, 12:10 AM
I agree with Forrest. TIME TO BENCH JDG!!!

Nothing can go worse for us at this point when it comes to him in the DM role. He's absolutely shite. The man will be lucky to have a job anywhere, in any league after he's done with TFC.

Daso had it all wrong today when he subbed off Nane, JDG looked like he was more interested in his hair then this game.

Time to bench JDG, but will Daso be the first coach to do it.

TOBOR !
09-19-2010, 12:56 AM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=375&pictureid=2552

jloome
09-19-2010, 01:38 AM
While I take some of PJ comments with a grain of salt I think most of them about JDG are reasonable. His play has been poor most of the time since he arrived in Toronto and you can also question his attitude with things like missing the curfew or partying in MTL 3 days prior to a crucial WCQ in Chiapas.

If JDG want PJ to stop, it might be in his interest to step up his game in the coming games because so far I won't complain with someone from the media who put some pressure on a player of his talent.


I'd take more than some with a grain of salt, given that he basically accused Nick Dasovic of stabbing preki in the back, then made it clear he had absolutely no information to support it.

The guy's just caustic.

scooterTFC
09-19-2010, 02:17 AM
I'd take more than some with a grain of salt, given that he basically accused Nick Dasovic of stabbing preki in the back, then made it clear he had absolutely no information to support it.

The guy's just caustic.

Agreed. I posted a comment on the Globe site challenging him to validate his opinion that daso, jdg and dero had dirty hands on the Preki dismissal by telling readers the inside story of what happened and how Preki was betrayed by these three as he had allueded to but not explained directly in his blog. He actually replied, which I give him huge credit for, but his reply was an indirect admission that he had no real insight or details. He's just pissed that his buddy Dale is collecting pogi. He does as much due dilligence on his stories as a journalist as he did on players eligibility as York's coach.

PS - wouldn't be cool if s decent local reporter covered the TFC beat? We get updates on farts in the Leafs locker room and we can't get a story on how/why Preki got fired or why Daso was MIA for two weeks? Instead we get Dobson's blog, where he alludes to knowing everything but actually tell us nothing.

Nuvinho
09-19-2010, 07:34 AM
Sam Cronin would of been the ideal replacement for JDG next year....sigh!

I always thought that Cronin always played 100% every game, no nights off.

Oldtimer
09-19-2010, 07:51 AM
Well, I can't defend JDG after how he's been playing recently.

It's a mystery. He used to look so, good on the CMNT. He even looked pretty good at the beginning of the year.

TFC Cityboy
09-19-2010, 08:21 AM
Sam Cronin would of been the ideal replacement for JDG next year....sigh!

I always thought that Cronin always played 100% every game, no nights off.
can't disagree with any of that. Wouldn't it b eironic if Sm scores the winner for SJ next week...after all, all our previous exes seem to have of late
:)

Standup105
09-19-2010, 08:39 AM
For some blind optimism, I still feel JDG will shrug off whatever has been holding him back with TFC and really come into his own, but in reality I just don't feel it will happen. Tonight, roughly 90% of his passes either went directly to the Dynamo or missed both teams entirely, and the passes he did make successfully were most often slow, weak passes to his defense, where they should have been crsip and with some pace. Defensively, he got beat incredibly easy and seems to fall for even the most bush league striket step overs and spins....come on JDG, show us what you've got!

Pookie
09-19-2010, 08:53 AM
^ he's showing us what he wants to show us. His heart was never in Red.

"I want to stay true to myself and I'm still leaning to Europe, preferably Spain,"
- DeGuzman July 20, 2009

Of course, I don't blame the guy. TFC backed the money truck up at a time when he was probably being blackballed out of Europe. Mo was going after him, hard, for all the wrong reasons:

"It's not about bringing in a 34- or 35-year-old," Johnston said. "I'm looking for someone 28, 29 and I believe it should be a Canadian. ... And, there's not many out there."
- Maurice Johnston, July 31, 2009

A Manager chasing a player based on passport and not skills + with a huge wallet + and a player settling for something that really isn't what he wants = shit

tfc2008
09-19-2010, 08:54 AM
When people say stay they really understand nothing about soccer.
Thats also why TFC is crap and lots of people agree with tomuch.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 09:34 AM
^ I think that comment in itself proves how little you know....

I have been backing JDG since day 1, and I still am. Why? because he was not up to par last night, i'll give you all that. But, last game he was on fire and definitely the best player on the pitch (In the first half he was the better between both teams). In my mind players are allowed to have shit games, its part of the game, no one can show up to every game and play the best. No one can name a player in the world that can do it. And based on that we don't have anyone anywhere near the best players in the world, so people need to drop there expectations of the players on the pitch for TFC, we probably won't be alive to be able to be as critical of the players as most of you are today!

Pookie
09-19-2010, 09:54 AM
^ I think that comment in itself proves how little you know....

I have been backing JDG since day 1, and I still am. Why? because he was not up to par last night, i'll give you all that. But, last game he was on fire and definitely the best player on the pitch...

^ try to avoid a pissing match over who supposedly knows more.

Focus on the facts. MLS allows teams to have 3 Designated Players. That's it. 3.

I couldn't give two shits as to whether he is better than Nane. He has to be better, or on par, with the contributions given by the League's other Designated Players.

Unless you want to compare him to Henry, Beckham and Marquez, we have to compare him to those DPs in his salary bracket.

Those guys are:

Freddie Ljundberg ($1.3M)
Juan Pablo Angel ($1.65M)
Landon Donvan ($2M)
Nery Castillo ($1.4M)

Where does he fit in that list in terms of contributions to his team?

pekduck
09-19-2010, 10:00 AM
^
add Blaise Nkufo who just scored a hat trick for Seattle last night

oh wait, he's only making $480,000 this season, 1 mil next one

Pachuco
09-19-2010, 10:12 AM
^ I think that comment in itself proves how little you know....

I have been backing JDG since day 1, and I still am. Why? because he was not up to par last night, i'll give you all that. But, last game he was on fire and definitely the best player on the pitch (In the first half he was the better between both teams). In my mind players are allowed to have shit games, its part of the game, no one can show up to every game and play the best. No one can name a player in the world that can do it. And based on that we don't have anyone anywhere near the best players in the world, so people need to drop there expectations of the players on the pitch for TFC, we probably won't be alive to be able to be as critical of the players as most of you are today!

How did he play in the second half of the Real Salt Lake game in your opinion?

I thought as well that he came out with pep in his step in that game. Then Mista got the red, JDG's head went down and the rest is history. I would go as far as saying he for a player of his caliber to give up on a game like that and a player of his salary it's sickening. He actually did the same thing yesterday, as soon as Houston scored, he started making attrocious passes and running half assed, basically just going through the motions. He gaves up way too easy. He could learn a thing or two from Dero about leadership.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 10:39 AM
Pookie, you just compared him to all attack minded DP's and your the one getting into a "pissing" match now....

Pachuco you are right about the second half with JDG, although it was after Mista's red, but in all fairness the whole team had given up long before he did, and I would have to say he was given it is all far longer than anyone else in that game.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 10:43 AM
On top of those comparisons, I would say he is 3rd to JPA and Landon because the contributions of lundjberg and Castillo have been shit all this season so far ( in there attacking role)

Pookie
09-19-2010, 10:45 AM
Pookie, you just compared him to all attack minded DP's and your the one getting into a "pissing" match now....



I just asked a question, didn't insult your intelligence.

I'm not choosing who I compare him to. Those players are the DPs. That's what they make.

Is that a good use of the DP slot?

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 10:50 AM
In my mind it is. It is a good use of a DP slot because it controls our transition area, and I like having a quality player that can transition between the back line and forward. Although it is Mo's and Preki's fault that we don't have the players or the cap space left over(from over paid players) to fill our attacking role. In my mind we have the players good enough to score goals, we just didn't have the right formation/tactics in place to do so. Which is why dumping Preki and Mo was a good decision regardless of timing for season ticket renewals.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I think we have the players to play a possession game, which we did against Cruz, by having DeGuz, DeRo, Mista, Santos, Barret, Peterson, Labrocca all those players have the ability to make simple passes and move into space, and Mista and Santos have the awareness and touch to control a pass in or around the 18 turn and shoot a placed shot. The problem was we were playing a defensive, quick attacking game with players that didn't have the pace to that. We did good for a while with that because DeRo and Barrett were up front who have that pace.

When DeRo got moved back and Barrett got hurt that style became useless because Mista and Santos can not outrun players, they out maneuver!

Carts
09-19-2010, 12:19 PM
Craig Forrest from last night on JDG quote:

"...he has got to start to do things for Toronto FC. Really, he's been poor since he's been in the club, lets call a spade a spade. He's needs to be better..."

I know I'm gonna get "...wtf does he know..." etc from people. But I'll take Forrest's 300 Premier League appearances as a good measuring stick that he knows what he's talking about...

Carts...

rocker
09-19-2010, 12:26 PM
did ya'll enjoy JDG's pass to the sideline last night? And the dummy on the ball that went to a Houston player? Or almost hitting the corner flag on an attempted shot on goal?? Great stuff there. ;)

JDG -- ya gotta wake up! You're better than that!

Pachuco
09-19-2010, 12:26 PM
Craig Forrest from last night on JDG quote:

"...he has got to start to do things for Toronto FC. Really, he's been poor since he's been in the club, lets call a spade a spade. He's needs to be better..."

I know I'm gonna get "...wtf does he know..." etc from people. But I'll take Forrest's 300 Premier League appearances as a good measuring stick that he knows what he's talking about...

Carts...

He even went as far as saying he wouldn't be shocked if JDG ends up o nthe bench.

And Devos last game commented on JDG as well. I think he thought he was helping JDG, but in the end, said exaclty what alot of people here seem to say which I continue to disagree with.

JDG is a great player, he's obviously one of the most skilled players on this team and in Devos' mind he takes too much flack from fans. But what I found ironic and funny about the whole thing is he ended the sentence with "TFC fans haven't seen what JDG can do and I think they'll get to see that at some point".

My thought was, gee Devos, are you just another guy clinging on to the hopes that JDG was great at one point in his career? The statement that JDG hasn't shown what he can do can easily be interpreted as he hasn't been up to par since he arrived. It's been over a season now that he's been on the team and people are still waiting for him to show up. So while Devos thinks he's supporting JDG, in my mind he's not helping him.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 12:35 PM
You can take that in 2 different ways.

1) He's been poor based on what he's done in the past with Deportivo

2) He's been poor just solely based on that Forrest thinks he has not played good for TFC based on what he expects him to play.

For the second context I would say that Forrest is more or less right, I have expected more from him in some games, but have also been pleased with his performance in some games. I would say the games that he has performed well outweigh his poor games. Again opinion based and everyone is entitled to it. Although just because someone plays at a high level doesn't mean they know how to critique (not saying Forrest doesn't know how I actually like his opinions for the most part.

For the first context I would say that alot of people dont' really know how he played at Deportivo, they are just assuming what his role was on that team. He won player of the year for them because of what he did that I said earlier in this thread and i dont' want to explain it again. I actually watched games that year of his and he did play the un-heroic part of the game, which he does here too. The difference is, that position gets noticed for all the little things that players do well in that position because Spanish teams get applause for possession. Which he is great at doing, its not his fault that when he dish's off a pass to Gargan, Usanov, Peterson, Nane and (most notably for this) Garcia they try to "hollywood" pass it to the forwards.

Carts
09-19-2010, 12:43 PM
You can take that in 2 different ways.

1) He's been poor based on what he's done in the past with Deportivo

2) He's been poor just solely based on that Forrest thinks he has not played good for TFC based on what he expects him to play.

For the second context I would say that Forrest is more or less right, I have expected more from him in some games, but have also been pleased with his performance in some games. I would say the games that he has performed well outweigh his poor games. Again opinion based and everyone is entitled to it. Although just because someone plays at a high level doesn't mean they know how to critique (not saying Forrest doesn't know how I actually like his opinions for the most part.

For the first context I would say that alot of people dont' really know how he played at Deportivo, they are just assuming what his role was on that team. He won player of the year for them because of what he did that I said earlier in this thread and i dont' want to explain it again. I actually watched games that year of his and he did play the un-heroic part of the game, which he does here too. The difference is, that position gets noticed for all the little things that players do well in that position because Spanish teams get applause for possession. Which he is great at doing, its not his fault that when he dish's off a pass to Gargan, Usanov, Peterson, Nane and (most notably for this) Garcia they try to "hollywood" pass it to the forwards.

"...Really, he's been poor since he's been in the club. Let's call a spade a spade..."

That has nothing to do with expectations - or taking it one way or another...

That is flat out, straight to the point, honest evaluation of JDG...

I bet Forrest wants JDG to succeed more than some of us. He's always spoken highly of Canadian Internationals...

Its a fact of the matter, straight up, no bs, honest evaluation. That JDG has been POOR...

I know people want him to succeed. I want him to succeed. I wish he came here and ran the balls off the league and became the best damn midfielder in the league. I really do...

But, he's not only not done that - he's been down right poor on the pitch most matches...

Carts...

BeerBaron95
09-19-2010, 12:43 PM
Your blinders are on tight.... he might be the most skilled player on the team.. but where and when will he makes positive contributions game in and game out to showcase them?

he was a brutal mess on the pitch last night, a trend which is quite common for him this season

So continue to defend him in hopes he breaks out (cause for the sake of the TEAM, I hope he does) But the rest of us will counter with extreme criticism until proven otherwise.

im not even going to comment on your Devos argument

Pachuco
09-19-2010, 12:45 PM
You can take that in 2 different ways.

1) He's been poor based on what he's done in the past with Deportivo

2) He's been poor just solely based on that Forrest thinks he has not played good for TFC based on what he expects him to play.

For the second context I would say that Forrest is more or less right, I have expected more from him in some games, but have also been pleased with his performance in some games. I would say the games that he has performed well outweigh his poor games. Again opinion based and everyone is entitled to it. Although just because someone plays at a high level doesn't mean they know how to critique (not saying Forrest doesn't know how I actually like his opinions for the most part.

For the first context I would say that alot of people dont' really know how he played at Deportivo, they are just assuming what his role was on that team. He won player of the year for them because of what he did that I said earlier in this thread and i dont' want to explain it again. I actually watched games that year of his and he did play the un-heroic part of the game, which he does here too. The difference is, that position gets noticed for all the little things that players do well in that position because Spanish teams get applause for possession. Which he is great at doing, its not his fault that when he dish's off a pass to Gargan, Usanov, Peterson, Nane and (most notably for this) Garcia they try to "hollywood" pass it to the forwards.

And that right there is the core of where you and I disagree. Like you said, at this point it's an opinion thing. I think he's the source of our problems when it comes to midfielders hooking up with our forwards. I feel like 90% of his passes to our forwards hit the other team's players before TFC players. I think he's probably the worst passer in the game when it comes to DPs in the league. Mista is night and day a better passer of the ball then JDG is. JDG spikes up his passing completion average because he can only pass the ball effectively when he's going backwards or sideways. There's nothing threatening about his passes.

He's probably used to having way more time to pass the ball then he has in the MLS, and I believe this is the source of his passing problems. He hasn't adapted well. But JDG's career will come to an end way before the MLS starts playing the style of play that comes out of La Liga.

Thrillos
09-19-2010, 03:05 PM
Pachuco, I have to agree with your point about time, La Liga is a much more relaxed game, forwards do not press as much when not in possession as here in MLS. And maybe thats what has been throwing him off so much, he isn't used to be being pressed so quickly. Who knows, all I know is that yes I know he can play better, yes he has bad games, but also believe that he does that position better than anyone we have on our team, or had.

In all honesty, look back at Robbo, I have the utmost respect for him but I never felt he was worth the money we were paying him as he had many errand passes.

And beerbaron, if all you can do is "counter with extreme criticism until proven otherwise" I would rather you stop all together because using extreme criticism on any player on the team you support is disgusting in my opinion and probably the reason why so many players low in morale and eventually criticized out of our team.

Wull
09-19-2010, 03:56 PM
And beerbaron, if all you can do is "counter with extreme criticism until proven otherwise" I would rather you stop all together because using extreme criticism on any player on the team you support is disgusting in my opinion and probably the reason why so many players low in morale and eventually criticized out of our team.

When he starts playing well, we'll stop criticizing, otherwise I want him out of the team. It's not disgusting, it's what happens when people aren't earning their salary. I would get told off if I was performing my job poorly (granted I don't have 20k people watching me doing my job but equally, they aren't helping to pay me millions of dollars per year in an organization they love) so why should he get a free pass?

brad
09-19-2010, 04:50 PM
I've been paying a lot of attention to JDG's passing over the last few games. Some of the errant passes have to do with players not moving off the ball, but in a lot of cases, he just weights a simple pass wrong. He often holds the ball too long, and then coughs up possession.

I no longer buy the "it's his team mates not moving properly" argument. Plus, he's now had an entire season to adapt to the level of play, and he hasn't.

I wonder how different people's opinions of him would be if he wasn't Canadian...