Has the protest already started?

[Pookie]

Have fans already begun the process of protesting the way this team is run... with their pocketbooks?

It is becoming hard to ignore the fact a number of fans have already checked out and in numbers that should already be concerning to the FO. They announce paid attendance but they have an idea as to actual attendance and it has to be down.

While the bulk of the tickets were sold prior to the season, the resale market isn't there anymore. Tickets aren't being resold. They aren't being given away. There are no takers. Even in the South End there are empty seats and people sitting early in the game.

The plan to make tickets available to the Red List through stadium expansion seems to be a fail. MLS attendance for TFC games is up about 1-2%. That's about 200-400 people more per game. They added 1,400. CONCACAF games go unsold to this supposedly large Red List as attendance is 3,000-4,000 below capacity.

This hurts but this is the reality. Crew game at kick off this summer:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9602/columbus.png


Our game 5 mins into the first half of a must win game

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8046/columbus2.png


There are all kinds of excuses for this from late trains to weather to the Toronto Sports Fan.

Well, this is also the Toronto Sports Fan and we are a long ways away from what this was once all about:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2427324429_566ae40d39.jpg

If those expensive seats being empty doesn't send a message that could hurt the pocket book next year, I'm not sure what will.

I'm optimistic that the wheels are in motion and there is a nervous eye on renewals at this point in time. Over the short term, the real potential for MLSE embarrassment is if that is the picture for Nationally Televised, Crowning Jewel in the Executive Trophy Case... the MLS Cup.

[MartinUtd]

Well at least I'll have a good shot a relocation next season. It is concerning though, how can you ask $1500 for a MLS season ticket? Its madness.

[menefreghista]

Great post Pookie.

I've seen a few posters state that they think the renewal rate will still be high. Personally I disagree.

I find it hard to believe that someone with expensive seats that can't give them away and chooses to simply not show up would even bother renewing.

I may be over-exaggerating, but I think its possible that TFC could see a 50% drop in renewals of the most expensive ticket price ranges, including those field tables.

What I also think you will see is an even higher increase of people in expensive seats trying to move to cheaper seats. And people with accounts with more than a pair of tickets will be cutting back as well.

What TFC should probably do is freeze the cheaper seats and lower the expensive ones. But what we will most likely see is a freeze in the expensive seats and another 10-15% increase in the cheaper seasons to make up. Of course, the fact that more games will be added complicates TFC's problem.

[Suds]

Have fans already begun the process of protesting the way this team is run... with their pocketbooks?


A form of protest? Nah, I don't think so.

This is pure apathy. Which is worse because it shows there are some people who just don't care to show up anymore even though they have already spent the money on the tickets.

[Parkdale]

A form of protest? Nah, I don't think so.

This is pure apathy. Which is worse because it shows there are some people who just don't care to show up anymore even though they have already spent the money on the tickets.

and in the grand scheme of things, the tickets still aren't that expensive (compared to leafs or raps) so it might not be that hard for someone with expensive seats, and a bankroll to match, to just say 'fuckit, I'm staying home'.

For us living in the real world, each ticket is a moderate chunk of cash, from $20 to $80, and we're not about to just take the loss over boredom.

[brad]

Great post.

I don't think it is a protest though, I think it's the novelty of the event wearing off, and the caliber of play on the field is not good enough to hold people's attention.

TFC has been about the game day experience for lots of fans, not the play on the field. That is my experience in the last 4 years talking to people that don't obsess over the team like most around here do.

The novelty is wearing off. The "crazy fans" are not a novelty anymore. The stadium is not packed anymore. The atmosphere outside the supporters sections sucks now due to security crackdowns over the last two years. The mood in BMO has been very different this year. It may or may not noticeable to those of you that sit in the supporters section, but it is night and day to what it used to be outside of them.

Once that has all worn off, you are left with the team, which sucks, still. Not only does the team suck, they play the most boring, dull football I have seen in years.

[brad]

Well at least I'll have a good shot a relocation next season. It is concerning though, how can you ask $1500 for a MLS season ticket? Its madness.

Because people pay it. As long as people pay it, that's what they will charge. When people stop paying it, they'll have to lower the price.

Of course, that dent's the income though, which means things like big salaries to DP's may end up off the books.

[brad]

Great post Pookie.

I've seen a few posters state that they think the renewal rate will still be high. Personally I disagree.

I find it hard to believe that someone with expensive seats that can't give them away and chooses to simply not show up would even bother renewing.

I may be over-exaggerating, but I think its possible that TFC could see a 50% drop in renewals of the most expensive ticket price ranges, including those field tables.


I doubt it will be that big, but I think when you combine the lack of quality on the pitch, the cost of the expensive seats, lack of interest in attending all the game, a global recession, and then look at the availability of affordable tickets on the secondary market (which Toronto sports fans are very aware of), I'd be shocked if there is not a big drop in the expensive seat renewals.

[Pyeddo]

For us living in the real world, each ticket is a moderate chunk of cash, from $20 to $80, and we're not about to just take the loss over boredom.

I live in the real world and did just that this past weekend. Stayed home, ate the ticket cost, watched it on TV, and don't regret it one bit.

[Beach_Red]

We seem to accept this idea that here are two kinds of fans in Toronto - so let's say that's true. MLSE can only get one kind - Leafs fans, what's left of Raptors fans.

Look, you can't expect McDonald's to market to gourmets and you can't expect MLSE to market to supporters. They're selling a "product" like a fast food where demand has already been built elsewhere.

Toronto is very much a trendy city, an "event" city and in the beginning TFC was a trendy new event, mostly driven by the passion of the supporters, it had nothing to do with anything MLSE did - this team dropped in their laps and like anything in life you don't have to work for, they don't respect it.

[Pookie]

The atmosphere outside the supporters sections sucks now due to security crackdowns over the last two years. The mood in BMO has been very different this year. It may or may not noticeable to those of you that sit in the supporters section, but it is night and day to what it used to be outside of them.



I'd agree but I'd still call it a "protest" of sorts. Maybe a "vote" is a better term but the reality is that people are not coming.

They aren't coming for reasons you've highlighted above. If someone wants to dismiss that based on train schedules, weather, or the supposed nature of "Toronto Sports Fans" then they are missing the big picture.

People used to want to go. If they couldn't, you could find quite a few others willing to go... quite a few even paid a premium to scalpers for access.

This year they paid, thinking they would go or find others that would come in their place.

Next year, I've got to think that the reality of the money they've lost last year, with the prospect of losing it again this year, relative to their "experience" is going to be a factor.

[menefreghista]

Toronto is very much a trendy city, an "event" city and in the beginning TFC was a trendy new event, mostly driven by the passion of the supporters, it had nothing to do with anything MLSE did - this team dropped in their laps and like anything in life you don't have to work for, they don't respect it.

And its that lack of respect that allows them to keep a terrible manager like Mo Johnston in place.

The irony of course is that it appears that Johnston's 4 years of ineptitude has lead to the apathy of many fans. MLSE has only themselves to blame for letting this farce of a management team remain in place despite the lack of results.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes that lack of respect allows them to keep him, but I think even worse, that lack of respect allowed them to hire him (by himself) in the first place.

It's not like MLSE don't want to win championships, but they don't want to make it a prerequisite for profitability - if the only way to make a profit is to win a championship then this isn't a business they'd be in - any more than if making great food was a prerequisite to getting a McDonald's franchise. Although, I suspect if a Mcdonalds franchise started up and hired a guy who'd spent half a year at another franchise before being fired they'd lose the franchise....

[TFC Cityboy]

a picture's worth a thousand words, and the 2 views of BMO from season 2 to last weekend is a shot accross the bows to MLSE to wake up before they kill the golden goose (jeez...too many metaphors!).

Last year, people kept bugging me for access to tickets. This year- barely anyone.

I think we all know how MLSE can make a start on fixing the problem...

[Dave67]

I currently know 3 groups of people who account for 12 seats at BMO.

One group of 4 are dumping all 4 this year.
Two groups of 4 are dumping 2 each.
In all cases the reason is they can't get face value for the tickets anymore to offset the games they can't make. None of these seats are in the cheap seats.

Who knows if these people will go ahead & renew at the last second or not. All I know for sure is, these people are not happy with the price they pay anymore. The value is not there for them.

Not the right way to grow a still new club.

[brad]

This year they paid, thinking they would go or find others that would come in their place.

Next year, I've got to think that the reality of the money they've lost last year, with the prospect of losing it again this year, relative to their "experience" is going to be a factor.

This is also a good point. In the past, you could buy your seats and count on having a long list of people to take those tickets off your hands if you couldn't use them.

So, say you bought the expensive seats knowing you could only make 2/3's of the games, you could sell your tickets to the other 1/3 and recoup a lot of the cost. If there is no one buying, then that is money out of pocket. Substantial money if you are talking about premium seats. That will change the equation for some.

Going to be an interesting renewal period, that's for sure.

EDIT: Skint posted at the same time a perfect example of what I am talking about.

[ManUtd4ever]

Have fans already begun the process of protesting the way this team is run... with their pocketbooks?

It is becoming hard to ignore the fact a number of fans have already checked out and in numbers that should already be concerning to the FO. They announce paid attendance but they have an idea as to actual attendance and it has to be down.

While the bulk of the tickets were sold prior to the season, the resale market isn't there anymore. Tickets aren't being resold. They aren't being given away. There are no takers. Even in the South End there are empty seats and people sitting early in the game.

The plan to make tickets available to the Red List through stadium expansion seems to be a fail. MLS attendance for TFC games is up about 1-2%. That's about 200-400 people more per game. They added 1,400. CONCACAF games go unsold to this supposedly large Red List as attendance is 3,000-4,000 below capacity.

This hurts but this is the reality. Crew game at kick off this summer:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9602/columbus.png


Our game 5 mins into the first half of a must win game

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8046/columbus2.png


There are all kinds of excuses for this from late trains to weather to the Toronto Sports Fan.

Well, this is also the Toronto Sports Fan and we are a long ways away from what this was once all about:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2427324429_566ae40d39.jpg

If those expensive seats being empty doesn't send a message that could hurt the pocket book next year, I'm not sure what will.

I'm optimistic that the wheels are in motion and there is a nervous eye on renewals at this point in time. Over the short term, the real potential for MLSE embarrassment is if that is the picture for Nationally Televised, Crowning Jewel in the Executive Trophy Case... the MLS Cup.

Excellent post. TFC is no longer the jewel of the league in terms of support which is why the upcoming off season is critical to the future viability of this market as a marquee franchise. I guarantee that if a quality GM is hired and delivers an entertaining, winning product on the pitch that TFC support will return to the glory days very quickly...

[spark]

I have two seats paid for and I think I've gone to more games alone this year than with someone. I need to book people a week or more in advance to convince them to come, and if the weather is crap then they usually bail.

I'm definitely going to have to move to a cheaper section and can add that my landlord has 4 tickets (two pairs) and is definitely dumping one and considering both.

In years past he organized his son's soccer team to go to games. This year NOBODY was willing to sign up and pay to watch a game.

And Brad we are on the same page re: 104/05/06 - used to be a good area now it's a silence pit. It's almost painful watching people start stuff there because the atmosphere was killed with an iron fist nobody cares anymore.

[Pookie]

This is also a good point. In the past, you could buy your seats and count on having a long list of people to take those tickets off your hands if you couldn't use them.

So, say you bought the expensive seats knowing you could only make 2/3's of the games, you could sell your tickets to the other 1/3 and recoup a lot of the cost. If there is no one buying, then that is money out of pocket. Substantial money if you are talking about premium seats. That will change the equation for some.



It's funny.

A well known MLSE exec and I were talking at one of the Pub Crawls last year and we got talking about ticket prices.

He relayed the view that TFC tickets would be like Leaf tickets in many respects. That the average Leaf season ticket holder got to a minimum number of games (I recall it being around 6 but don't quote me). In his view, the bulk of season tickets are either corporate or shared amongst a group of guys. This was the view of where TFC tickets would end up.

Clearly, the resell value of the Leaf ticket helps with that cost. To his credit, the Personal Seat License plan didn't seem to be of interest at this stage.

I wonder if that view is still held in light of the economic realities that are now presenting themselves.

Seems like greed has the potential to kill a profitable business that operates under a controlled cost model.

[Beach_Red]

Excellent post. TFC is no longer the jewel of the league in terms of support which is why the upcoming off season is critical to the future viability of this market as a marquee franchise. I guarantee that if a quality GM is hired and delivers an entertaining, winning product on the pitch that TFC support will return to the glory days very quickly...


What happens if it's like the Leafs and Raptors and a "quality" GM is hired but the team still doesn't make the playoffs? Is an entertaining product enough on its own?

[Beach_Red]

It's funny.

A well known MLSE exec and I were talking at one of the Pub Crawls last year and we got talking about ticket prices.

He relayed the view that TFC tickets would be like Leaf tickets in many respects. That the average Leaf season ticket holder got to a minimum number of games (I recall it being around 6 but don't quote me). In his view, the bulk of season tickets are either corporate or shared amongst a group of guys. This was the view of where TFC tickets would end up.

Clearly, the resell value of the Leaf ticket helps with that cost. To his credit, the Personal Seat License plan didn't seem to be of interest at this stage.

I wonder if that view is still held in light of the economic realities that are now presenting themselves.

Seems like greed has the potential to kill a profitable business that operates under a controlled cost model.

This pretty much sums up what I'm on about. Call it greed or call it only seeing one part of the market, this is the way MLSE operate. And it works fine for a product like the Leafs that someone else built up over a hundred years and that became a part of the culture of the country. But can they build a business?

[Pookie]

^ IMO, atmosphere sells tickets. It has to be fun or else you'll spend on other things. Winning and "product" are secondary.

The Leafs offer a stale environment but there is a real "excitement" with the prospect of going to an NHL game in our hockey mad culture. Maybe it's to see Crosby or another star on a visiting team. Maybe it's dinner out or Don Cherry and the Hockey Night in Canada Cameras.

Often the game itself leaves much to be desired but it is the "experience" of being apart of something that excites a person into going.

Raptors? They are 14th in the league in attendance as of last year. I think their "experience" is ok but I'd say "value" (cost relative to experience) is a factor for them.

The relatively stale environment (outside of 111-113) is a major factor in the value equation at BMO, IMO.

[brad]

What happens if it's like the Leafs and Raptors and a "quality" GM is hired but the team still doesn't make the playoffs? Is an entertaining product enough on its own?

Perhaps. An entertaining attacking team that scores a alot of goals may be enough.

It's not just that we are losing and drawing, it's that the product is dull

[Fort York Redcoat]

What happens if it's like the Leafs and Raptors and a "quality" GM is hired but the team still doesn't make the playoffs? Is an entertaining product enough on its own?

Entertaining enough for who? For most of us here? We'll bitch and moan through worse football than this and still stick it through but we alone aren't enough to make the ticket sales a $ucce$$ for our owners.

[Suds]

And Brad we are on the same page re: 104/05/06 - used to be a good area now it's a silence pit. It's almost painful watching people start stuff there because the atmosphere was killed with an iron fist nobody cares anymore.

This was noted numerous times by the fans about how the game day experience was being killed by the poor security at BMO. This is just one more thing that has lead to the decline in the seats being filled. The TFC FO was warned many times but it seemed no action was ever taken.

[Mark in Ottawa]

And I am living proof of some of this. I purchased two seats in Section 110 from another supporter at the start of the season hoping my son would use a few and I could pass the rest to other supporters at cost.

I have had to swallow the cost of these tickets a few times because no one would buy them when they were offered. The demand is NOT there.

Makes me wonder about that infamous "15,000 person waiting list" :rolleyes:

[TFC_Central]

im not paying 40$ to watch a garbage product. I payed 20 pounds to watch premiership matches ffs. What needs to be done is increase capacity, and lower seat prices. Make it 40,000 seats at 20$ a pop then have your prawny seats at the same price, with more corporate boxes. This is footy done proper. The atmosphere will stay because the tickets are on the cheap and the novelty will stur up again with the packed house.
The product on the field will raise, we have grass, we have support. Now we need a competent manager and we'll be fine. A second deck on the south and north end with a roof would help with a football business model. Also lets be honest. BMO field is one of the ass ugliest cheapest footy stadiums out there, its just fucking sheet.

[SilverSamurai]

im not paying 40$ to watch a garbage product. I payed 20 pounds to watch premiership matches ffs. What needs to be done is increase capacity, and lower seat prices. Make it 40,000 seats at 20$ a pop then have your prawny seats at the same price, with more corporate boxes. This is footy done proper. The atmosphere will stay because the tickets are on the cheap and the novelty will stur up again with the packed house.
The product on the field will raise, we have grass, we have support. Now we need a competent manager and we'll be fine. A second deck on the south and north end with a roof would help with a football business model. Also lets be honest. BMO field is one of the ass ugliest cheapest footy stadiums out there, its just fucking sheet.
Increase capacity?
are you crazy?
THen prices will have to go up to make up for building the expansion.

This isn't like Europe where leagues get million dollar TV deals... it simply won't work.

I do agree that BMO is sorta ugly, but well it's our ugly lil home! I'd much rather have BMO than a "nicer" cave like what the Revs play in.

[bigtfcfan]

I've already started my personal protest. No TFC gear. No TFC tickets. No watching TFC games. Nothing TFC. And don't say i'm not a good fan. I'm a very good fan and I know what's good for the future of the club.

[MKR]

i don't know about protest, but i think it's safe to say that the novelty of the first few years has just worn off and that explains a large part of the decline in demand.

Those years were pretty hilarious. I would get some of my co-workers talking about going or wanting to go to a match and i can guarantee that they had never watched a full 90 minutes of soccer prior to that. We were classic toronto flavour of the month.

Now IMO ML$E made the mistake of assuming that was reflective of the true demand for the product and raising the prices as frequently as they did just a mistake. sure you are starting to see it now and you will continue to see it in the future. toronto just ain't that much a soccer town. Not like we all thought at first anyways. Just look at the national game attendance for more proof.

Personally i think the jump in prices is insulting to fans. No disrespect, but i laugh at the notion of spending that kind of money (minus the south stands) on season's seats given other things i could be spending my money on.

[bigtfcfan]

I've already started my personal protest. No TFC gear. No TFC tickets. No watching TFC games. Nothing TFC. And don't say i'm not a good fan. I'm a very good fan and I know what's good for the future of the club.

NVM my protest is over MO and Preki are gone lol

[rocker]

toronto just ain't that much a soccer town.

I disagree. I think it's a massive soccer town. But not willing to pay for any level of soccer.

Torontonians don't pay money for minor league sport... even hockey.

If MLS was similar quality to the bigger Euro leagues, Torontonians of all ethnicities would be rabid for it that you'd have people dying to get in still.

[supernothingman]

I can't see myself renewing my tickets next year.

[DichioTFC]

I'll be getting seasons next year. Can't speak on behalf of anyone who wants to get rid of their tickets, but I love the team. Through all the highs and lows...

[nfitz]

I can't see myself renewing my tickets next year.Last year we had all these people saying they weren't renewing; I thought I'd have a chance at seasons (well I did ... single in top row of Red ... passed), and it ended up being 95% renewal again.

Stop getting my hopes up!

[MKR]

I'll be getting seasons next year. Can't speak on behalf of anyone who wants to get rid of their tickets, but I love the team. Through all the highs and lows...

funny. i hate the team, but theyre my team. blaaaaagh. :facepalm:

And nfitz, feel free to take my spot in line if i am any closer.

[rocker]

I'm kinda hoping renewal rates are lower so relocation will be easier for me. I need to get off the aisle and the constant interruptions. I've gone my eyes on 2 seats in 124. :)

[J .]

Once the streamers left fans started leaving :P