Hats, U-Sec v RPB and other silliness

[SweetOwnGoal]

Let's get one thing out of the way off the top: I'm not interested in fighting with other TFC supporters. Not now, not ever.

Although it wasn't me who did it (and I don't speak for all of U-Sector) I want to take this opportunity to publically apologize to Flush for his hat being thrown on the ground. It shouldn't have happened. Respectfully, I'd like to move past that.

From my/our perspective I would like to say that it wasn't OK that some of your guys walked into our section to get in our face either. The guy that was standing two inches from me was doing so for no other reason than to try and intimidate. Not cool. But, I'm going to move past that.

Enough of the RPB leadership know me that they can attest to the sincerity of my support and passion. I'm a (too) passionate guy and my temper can lead me to verbally snapping at times. So, I am sorry for saying what I was saying the way that I said it.

I am not sorry about the message. And I know that the rest of 113 shares my feelings. I don't want to start a cross-group flame war, but we need to air this out because there is a real difference in how we view things.

My position is this: There is a time and place for protests and negativity. During the 90 is NEVER that place. The role of a supporter's group is to make home a harder place for the opposition to play. When you wallow in the shit and turn on your own players you are making it harder for TFC to play there. That's not supporting. It's the opposite of it actually. If RPB goes the protest route at the next home game, I know that 113 will just sing louder. You, of course, are free to do as you please but I really, really, really don't want to see a repeat of the conflict we saw Saturday. I've never left BMO feeling shittier for having been there before. I don't want to do so ever again.

Please consider this: Take a protest outside of gate 4 prior to kick-off. Go there after. But, during the game you support for the full 90. To me that's what support means. I agree that Mo is an idiot and that there is a lot wrong with this club. But, I didn't sign up for this so I could only watch TFC win. "Through all of the highs and lows ..."

The only thing being negative in the stadium accomplishes is making it a more miserable experience for you and everyone around you. You are mistaken if you think that signing "We're not going to take this" in the 87th minute does anything. Doing it creatively, with a message, at a place where it's not as expected might.

Regardless of what you do I beg everyone that we keep our rage and hatred focused where it belongs next game: on the refs, the bastards in the other team's strip and on the Impact and Crew.

We're, after all, all in this together.

[Parkdale]

thanks for posting that Duane.



100% agreed that we need to keep focus on where it belongs - the field
(and voicing our desire to see the product on the field improve)


having said that -- we (the RPB) have often had criticism from people (even inside our own group)
about the choice of song to sing. I personally believe that chant lyrics are taken way too literally,
BUT sometimes singing 'marching on to victory' shouldn't be sung when we're losing, lest we become
the plastic cheerleaders that other clubs love to think we are.

We (the RPB's who are directly involved with chants and drums) always try to keep in mind which chants
are appropriate to sing at a specific moment in the game. I think this whole incident comes from the same issue.

the rest of the silliness (and we can all agree it was silly) was due to tempers and misplaced frustrations - NOT intergroup beef.

[Parkdale]

What I don't get is why anybody else would take it personal though, I have no problem booing while the guy next to me is cheering. I'd share a beer with him after the game and laugh my ass off.

because when people are pissed off (and we ALL had reason to be pissed off yesterday) it's very easy to push buttons and turn the conflict into something that it shouldn't be.

This thread is about specific incidents, and the blowup-cooloff that followed. It will probably be moved to the public RPB section (that all people with accounts can see, Registered Users and Members alike) just because it's not about on-field play.... BUT I'll leave it here for now because it's high traffic and should be seen by everyone)

[Pigfynn]

Not referring to anything that happened yesterday cause I'm not a member of any supporter's group, I don't sit in those sections and I didn't even witnessed what happened.

I'm just referring to your position in itself. I have to say I disagree. I pay for my ticket and support which ever way I like. Therefore I will boo the team on a performance like that and I didn't even realize until yesterday how good it feels to let them have it when they deserve it. Preki's lucky I don't sit anywhere near him or I would've let him have it all game long. At the end of the day I'm a paying customer and so are you. We each have our own right to do whatever makes us feel better. So long as nobody is crossing the line with profanity or throwing shit on the field. After all, those chants and booing are quite legal at BMO.

What I don't get is why anybody else would take it personal though, I have no problem booing while the guy next to me is cheering. I'd share a beer with him after the game and laugh my ass off.





^^ I think this is an issue pertaining to members of supporters groups, so as you've said it has nothing to do with you.

[Pachuco]

I thought it was an issue dealing with people booing. Didn't realize it was only an issue if you boo'd out of 112 yesterday. Anyways, deleted my post. You guys should move this thread to the member's only if this really is intended to be a supporter's group conversation.

[Parkdale]

and one thing to note --- 112 did a hell of a lot of singing for the team yesterday.

when we wern't singing, it wasn't because we want to shame the team, but because we wouldn't sing a song about 'marching on to victory' when the team has lost. It's about the right chants at the right time, not about protesting over performance. believe me.... we have songs for losing too.


and believe me, there has been a huge amount of internal discussion over here about what is 'the right chant' and the right time'.

We'd never sing 'it's too late here we come... allez allez... we've got you on the run' when we're down.
That's a clear example, the rest are less so. The chants that were coming out of 113 in the dying minutes
of the game yesterday were (in my opinion) chants that shouldn't be sung when we lose. Again, my opinion.

[Parkdale]

man, typos all over the place. I've been at work since 7:30am and the coffee just isn't working!

[Bluenose13]

Let's get one thing out of the way off the top: I'm not interested in fighting with other TFC supporters. Not now, not ever.

Although it wasn't me who did it (and I don't speak for all of U-Sector) I want to take this opportunity to publically apologize to Flush for his hat being thrown on the ground. It shouldn't have happened. Respectfully, I'd like to move past that.

From my/our perspective I would like to say that it wasn't OK that some of your guys walked into our section to get in our face either. The guy that was standing two inches from me was doing so for no other reason than to try and intimidate. Not cool. But, I'm going to move past that.

Over the past 4 years people in both groups have grown from acquaintences brought together by a common passion, to all out friends that carries over to real life outside of BMO.

You may not be happy about a couple guys coming into 113 to sort out the hat situation, I think RPB showed great restraint that a lot more of us didn't end up there to sort out the situation.

Have someone ignorantly disrespect one of your friends & then you can judge the reaction accordingly.

Having said that, I now know who did knock the hat of Flush's head & I also beleive that he has apoligized for doing it. I have seen this member of Usector at BMO for years & know that he is very passionate about his support. I have also been on many roadtrips & seen this person give his all in support of TFC. I can also tell you that if I was on the road & someone disrespected this Usector member in front of me, I would jump just as quckly to sort out that situation.......because yes we are all in this together.

The line that was crossed yesterday should never be breached again as the end result could very well be much worse & that is my advice to both sides.

[FluSH]

Thanks for the post. I've spoken with the individuals involved and they've apologized. It was a boneheaded move - but let's move pass that. I am just glad nothing happened - although alot of my people are upset at me, but I will handle this.

Now, my role as a capo is beign a conductor - The top of 112 was upset and began an anti-mo chant... sentiments that were shared and supported by many soon after. This was not against the team - it was against Mo. Every chant has a purpose and the one chant we refused to do was The Bounce - that is a celebration chant when we are up or winning. I agree with supporting the team 90 mins through and through, but I am also not going to be a cheerleader. I am not going to blindly do chants that have no relation to the game. If that's the case I rather have a DJ playing music clips like they do in Basketball games. I will also say not to worry as we are not turning the protest route - yet. But if we do, I would hope that it's organized and supported by both groups (outside of the stadium or wherever it may be).

-FluSH

[TFC Cityboy]

Yesterday was a definate turning point.

The Toronto FC of Mo Johnston and Preki does not deserve the unmatched support they have received for these 4 past seasons.

I too booed at the umpteenth misplaced pass of the afternoon (I do feel bad it was Dan Gargan tho) and after that. The booing was directed beyong the pitch tho at the inhabitants of the FO and coaching staff.

I personally found it increasing hard to garner any enthusiasm to join in the chants yesterday (I'm in 115 tho, which was a DEADZONE yesterday).

From what I saw, 112 was its usual loud supporting self til the goal. Understandably the mood changes when the league's worst team scores (ex TFC player at that) with 10 minutes to go in a seemingly pointless play-off chase.

Given that context, the Bounce seemed completely inappropriate to what was happening on the pitch. 112 has come under criticism of late for cheerleading/playlists that are inappropriate to what is happening on the pitch. "We're not gonna take this" was a superb impromptu song completely in sych with the shite on display out there.

Had 112 adopted booing and siniging this prior to the goal or from kick-off, I'd be more sympathetic to U-sector's stance. I respectfully disagree with them and would urge them to join with the RPB in getting the club's attention when it is most noticable to the FO, casual fans, TV audience and the rst of the paying crowd at BMO Field.

Many of us in RPB have wanted Johnston (and to some degree Preki) out for a long long time, but have not let that get in the way of giving 100% support to the lads in red.

That goal signalled the end of the play-off race. The players and FO know this now. The gloves should be off now and we'd be stronger in driving change with the united support of all SGs.

[London]

the taunt after speaks volumes to me

[canadian_bhoy]

What's so bad about people booing the team yesterday?

If being in the stands isn't the time and place to publicly voice displeasure then I don't know what is. Gate 4 protest? Give me a break. You paid your money, you've been given dog meat for 4 years - if you're pissed off then let them know it.

The team knows that we are supporters. To say that we shouldn't voice displeasure becuase we want to support them is like saying you can't get into arguments with your GF because you love her. Sitting back and mindlessly cheering isn't support - it's cheerleading.

Frankly, I'm glad the boo birds came out yesterday. TFC has shit the bed in terms of success on the field, quality of entertainment, ticket gouging - the list goes on. They deserved to get booed yesterday.

Even they agree - read the star article today. The players know it.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/859905--tfc-comes-up-flat-playoff-hopes-dwindle?bn=1

“We lacked passion. You could see it from the get-go,” said defender Nana Attakora.
“As you could see, our fans here today are really disappointed and they showed it and they have all the right to be.”

[Redpunkfiddle]

I don't believe on shitting on players during the game. But right after this one ended I made a sound that definitely not 'marching on to victory'. I can count on two fingers the number of times that has happened in four years.

Yesterday was a pretty poignant experience for supporters. I can't think that you believe that every 90 of every game should receive the same amount of support (yes, the 'marching on to victory' did erode credibility at the end of game). The moment where our playoff chances were in all reality sunk by the worst team in the league (for the second year in a row, but this time at home) led to ill feeling. And again, for most that is directed to management of the team.

That a chant was raised from somewhere up top that had enough resonances to spread spoke to that feeling. I suggest that 'we're not going to take it' was a shot across the bow that there is no faith in how the team is assembled.

But people went on with Forza TFC after that too.

I also can't fault the more casual crowd (those that actually stuck it out) for booing as it shows they actually know what the implications of that loss were. They didn't boo like that when we were beaten 4-1 by NYRB.

Any idiocy that involved physical confrontation- or taunting between groups is of course unacceptable.

[TFC Cityboy]

What's so bad about people booing the team yesterday?

If being in the stands isn't the time and place to publicly voice displeasure then I don't know what is. Gate 4 protest? Give me a break. You paid your money, you've been given dog meat for 4 years - if you're pissed off then let them know it.

The team knows that we are supporters. To say that we shouldn't voice displeasure becuase we want to support them is like saying you can't get into arguments with your GF because you love her. Sitting back and mindlessly cheering isn't support - it's cheerleading.

Frankly, I'm glad the boo birds came out yesterday. TFC has shit the bed in terms of success on the field, quality of entertainment, ticket gouging - the list goes on. They deserved to get booed yesterday.

Even they agree - read the star article today. The players know it.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/859905--tfc-comes-up-flat-playoff-hopes-dwindle?bn=1

“We lacked passion. You could see it from the get-go,” said defender Nana Attakora.
“As you could see, our fans here today are really disappointed and they showed it and they have all the right to be.”

100% behind this.

Different situations, I know (and let's not go off on a tangent here) but look at the green and gold campaign at Old Trafford and the anti-Gillette/Hicks campaign at Anfield. You sometimes HAVE to take your actions to the stands to get the attention needed on TV.

[Roogsy]

You may not be happy about a couple guys coming into 113 to sort out the hat situation, I think RPB showed great restraint that a lot more of us didn't end up there to sort out the situation.

This...

[Roogsy]

Now, my role as a capo is beign a conductor - The top of 112 was upset and began an anti-mo chant... sentiments that were shared and supported by many soon after. This was not against the team - it was against Mo. Every chant has a purpose and the one chant we refused to do was The Bounce - that is a celebration chant when we are up or winning. I agree with supporting the team 90 mins through and through, but I am also not going to be a cheerleader. I am not going to blindly do chants that have no relation to the game. If that's the case I rather have a DJ playing music clips like they do in Basketball games. I will also say not to worry as we are not turning the protest route - yet. But if we do, I would hope that it's organized and supported by both groups (outside of the stadium or wherever it may be).

-FluSH


And this...

That is all I will say.

[bgnewf]

The tragedy is that the club that Mo/Preki put on the pitch, the piss poor effort of many players, the substandard tactics and of course the irony of the result were the reasons for what happened yesterday. We get silly as individuals and end up taking our frustrations out on each other, which misses the point. We as SUPPORTERS must remember that infighting between ourselves over the "how" of supporting takes the focus off the real structural issues this club has to address.

[koryo]

First of all SweetOwnGoal: thank you for coming on here to set the record straight. That's very big of you and I appreciate it.

<Edit:>
Second: Flush, I think you did the right thing when you didn't join U-Sector in the Bounce after we went down, at home, to the worst team in the league, after having being comprehensively out-played all afternoon...
</Edit>

I'll put my hand up for singing "We're not gonna take it", and for booing after the final whistle and I don't regret it for a minute. Here's why:

- my anger and frustration are primarily with the FO and management team. They've made a dog's breakfast of TFC-to-date. We, as their source of revenue (and let's face it, the only thing the FO gives a damn about is the bottom line) have a responsibility to tell them they're not doing a good job

- I can understand the point-of-view of not wanting to rag on the players, but I confess I don't agree with it. Although not responsible for the sad state of the organization, the players were responsible for what happened on the pitch yesterday. As we all know, what happened on the pitch yesterday was disgraceful. Losing to the worst team in the league, at home, when nothing short of three points will do is a disgrace and the players must take responsibility for that. They're grown men, they can shoulder the burden. I've always believed that part of support is tough love when needed. If they get angry at our reaction yesterday then good. They might show a bit of fight next time. If they don't, then they don't give a damn and shouldn't wear the jersey in the first place.

Perhaps that sentiment, of holding players responsible for their failures on the pitch, doesn't have a place in this group. I can't force people to think and act in a certain way. But at the same time, don't ever expect me to encourage and reward a performance like yesterday.

Where I come from, the grass is green, the sky is blue and shit is shit.

[Pookie]

I too booed at the umpteenth misplaced pass of the afternoon (I do feel bad it was Dan Gargan tho) and after that. The booing was directed beyong the pitch tho at the inhabitants of the FO and coaching staff.


Bit of a fine line though isn't it?

TFC Player: "Are they booing me, at home, because they think I suck?"

Fan: " No. I'm not booing you because I think you suck. I'm booing the guy that PICKED YOU to play here. If he knew what he was doing he wouldn't have picked you because clearly, the results indicate you suck. Not your fault that you were picked though mate so no hard feelings. Can you sign my scarf after the game? "

TFC Player: "????"

[Mango Kid]

Hell yes, Koryo. Couldn't agree more.

[Yeoman]

again like said; where is it appropriate to show our displeasure then?
i stopped drumming because i saw the writing on the wall for the game yesterday.
i'll admit that i too took a part in starting the anti-mo chants. how many years is this now for mo as a gm? six? seven? made the playoffs once right?
do the math. if i made what is a projected goal at my job once out of seven times, i'd be out of a job.

[koryo]

Bit of a fine line though isn't it?

TFC Player: "Are they booing me, at home, because they think I suck?"

Fan: " No. I'm not booing you because I think you suck. I'm booing the guy that PICKED YOU to play here. If he knew what he was doing he wouldn't have picked you because clearly, the results indicate you suck. Not your fault that you were picked though mate so no hard feelings. Can you sign my scarf after the game? "

TFC Player: "????"

And this is the real conundrum, isn't it? The flip-side is that piss-poor management can use the players as a human shield.

[Darlofletch]

Hell yes, Koryo. Couldn't agree more.

me neither.

What the FO and anyone who cares about the team should fear isn't anger and booing it's apathy. The people that were booing are people who care and don't want to see the shitshow continue, and see that as their only way of voicing their displeasure to the powers that be.

U-sector and anyone else who kept cheering? good for them as well, again they care and they're doing what they feel is best for the team and the club.

It's the people who don't care enough that will show their displeasure by not coming any more, that's what we should be afraid of.

personally I'm impressed rpb, u-sector and nee kept it positive as long as they did yesterday.

Like redpunkpiddle said, supportive chants came back later, same with the nee, they ran through a lot of anti-mo chants, but then went back to cheering to try and inspire an equaliser.

i also fully applaud the decision not to do the bounce, that's definitely way too triumphal for yesterday's game

[Cashcleaner]

The tragedy is that the club that Mo/Preki put on the pitch, the piss poor effort of many players, the substandard tactics and of course the irony of the result were the reasons for what happened yesterday. We get silly as individuals and end up taking our frustrations out on each other, which misses the point. We as SUPPORTERS must remember that infighting between ourselves over the "how" of supporting takes the focus off the real structural issues this club has to address.

QFT.

Time and time again this sorta thing keeps happening. Surely we can all recognize the signs, right? It should be of no surprise that when the team starts shitting the bed, the bad blood between groups and individuals tends to rise. Any other time of the season when things are looking good, these sort of incidents JUST DON'T HAPPEN.

We gotta get out of this cycle of disappointment followed by recrimination towards other supporters. It just doesn't help anyone. There is obviously something not right with TFC at the moment and we need to maintain focus on the people responsible.

[Blizzard]

because when people are pissed off (and we ALL had reason to be pissed off yesterday) it's very easy to push buttons and turn the conflict into something that it shouldn't be.


Especially when alcohol is involved. The four guys that came into 113 were obviously soussed. They confronted Toronto Red and myself after the match as we walked towards gate 3 one guy threatening us with an "avalanche".

If either of us were as drunk as they were, something untoward could conceivably have happened.

Very silly and unnecessary stuff.

Edit: And a good alternative to boing to be aimed at management or referees is right here: http://www.fanchants.com/football-songs/nottingham_forest-chants/you-dont-know-what-youre-doing-NFFC/

[Blizzard]

Bit of a fine line though isn't it?

TFC Player: "Are they booing me, at home, because they think I suck?"

Fan: " No. I'm not booing you because I think you suck. I'm booing the guy that PICKED YOU to play here. If he knew what he was doing he wouldn't have picked you because clearly, the results indicate you suck. Not your fault that you were picked though mate so no hard feelings. Can you sign my scarf after the game? "

TFC Player: "????"

My feelings exactly.

[Yeoman]

hence why you'll never hear me boo
i'll call that specific person out rather than boo.

[CretanBull]

What's so bad about people booing the team yesterday?

If being in the stands isn't the time and place to publicly voice displeasure then I don't know what is. Gate 4 protest? Give me a break. You paid your money, you've been given dog meat for 4 years - if you're pissed off then let them know it.

The team knows that we are supporters. To say that we shouldn't voice displeasure becuase we want to support them is like saying you can't get into arguments with your GF because you love her. Sitting back and mindlessly cheering isn't support - it's cheerleading.

Frankly, I'm glad the boo birds came out yesterday. TFC has shit the bed in terms of success on the field, quality of entertainment, ticket gouging - the list goes on. They deserved to get booed yesterday.

Even they agree - read the star article today. The players know it.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/859905--tfc-comes-up-flat-playoff-hopes-dwindle?bn=1

“We lacked passion. You could see it from the get-go,” said defender Nana Attakora.
“As you could see, our fans here today are really disappointed and they showed it and they have all the right to be.”


:thumbsup:

[RobM]

TFC Player: "Are they booing me, at home, because they think I suck?"

Me: "Do you really think my booing is directly aimed at you personally? How about the fact that in 4 years we haven't made the playoffs. How about the fact that our coach has the tactical astuteness of a brick (sorry to any bricks that are reading)? How about the fact this is a must win home game for us against the worst team in the league, we have created only 1 clear chance all game and the opposition should really be winning by 2 or 3? How about the fact that we haven't even scored in the last 5 never mind won? How about that as a team we've been going backwards (literally and metaphorically). Anyone who watches these games knows we have problems bigger than any individual player. I've got bigger things to boo at than you personally.

If you have put your heart into everything you do, then no I will never boo you. If you don't put your all into it, or you are blissfully unaware of any of the above issues, then you can probably answer your own question. At the moment I have bigger things to worry about"

Rob

[Heart of Stone]

What if Toronto had scored twice in the last 4 or 5 minutes after everyone had started booing/singing We're Not Going To Take It?

The TFC players would not have come over to acknowledge sec. 112 with clapping above their heads... they may very well have given the one finger salute to that corner before walking off the pitch...

[CretanBull]

Please consider this: Take a protest outside of gate 4 prior to kick-off. Go there after. But, during the game you support for the full 90. To me that's what support means. I agree that Mo is an idiot and that there is a lot wrong with this club. But, I didn't sign up for this so I could only watch TFC win. "Through all of the highs and lows ..."

The only thing being negative in the stadium accomplishes is making it a more miserable experience for you and everyone around you. You are mistaken if you think that signing "We're not going to take this" in the 87th minute does anything. Doing it creatively, with a message, at a place where it's not as expected might.

That chant was specifically refered to in a few articles about yesterday's game and the displeasure that it represents was the main talking point behind just about every article written about yesterday's game. Argueably, it's gotten more attention than some of the more well organized protests. That level of public shame will have played a role in what we all expect will come.

That aside, I agree with the message and sentiments behind your post. Cheers!

[Yeoman]

What if Toronto had scored twice in the last 4 or 5 minutes after everyone had started booing/singing We're Not Going To Take It?

The TFC players would not have come over to acknowledge sec. 112 with clapping above their heads... they may very well have given the one finger salute to that corner before walking off the pitch...

i'd of regardless
i was wanting to all game

[werewolf]

I was at the PSG-Arles game in Paris yesterday, they were up 4-0 in the second half. Kezman came on as a sub. and played awful, and the fans let him know it. A 4-goal lead at home and they weren't afraid to boo him. It was an honest reaction.

The support only extends so far, we have seen this team quit on the field before, how many times can they stop trying while we carry on acting like everything is roses. Sometimes support isn't always positive. We arent in the stands to blow sunshine up everyones arse.

[FluSH]

Heart of Stone
^^^
It was never torwards the players. "We're not gonna take it" came after a Mo must Go Chant. The team has lost its morale... DeRo should have been paid what he deserves from day 1... now you're brigning players who make triple his salary and do less for the team. There are a lot of things wrong with this team's management.

[CretanBull]

What if Toronto had scored twice in the last 4 or 5 minutes...

What if the game was disrupted by a fight between Godzilla and Mothra? Both were as likely to happen yesterday.

[Damien]

Heart of Stone
^^^
It was never torwards the players. "We're not gonna take it" came after a Mo must Go Chant. The team has lost its morale... DeRo should have been paid what he deserves from day 1... now you're brigning players who make triple his salary and do less for the team. There are a lot of things wrong with this team's management.

QFT. Too many overpaid bum's.

[RobM]

What if Toronto had scored twice in the last 4 or 5 minutes after everyone had started booing/singing We're Not Going To Take It?

The TFC players would not have come over to acknowledge sec. 112 with clapping above their heads... they may very well have given the one finger salute to that corner before walking off the pitch...

Two goals in the last few minutes would just delay the inevitable by a week or two. It would have been papering over the cracks. I assume the players know there are bigger issues than losing yesterday.

If booing/singing "We're not going to take it" led to them scoring two goals we should have done it weeks ago when it might have made a difference. I'd rather have a team that plays with heart and a bit of fight and doesn't come to applaud me at the end of the game than have poor performance after poor performance and have the players applaud me.

[RobM]

DeRo should have been paid what he deserves from day 1... now you're brigning players who make triple his salary and do less for the team. There are a lot of things wrong with this team's management.

This is one of the things that I can't get my head around. Theoretically at the moment we have some of the best players we've ever had but we've gone backwards.
Look at the spine of the team - Frei, Cann/Attakora, JDG (if he'd play to his potential but lets not open that one again), Dero, Santos (given more time).
I think there's something fundamentally wrong at a man-management and tactical level.

[Azerban]

What if the game was disrupted by a fight between Godzilla and Mothra? Both were as likely to happen yesterday.

don't be ludicrous



i've actually seen godzilla and mothra fight, i've never seen toronto come back and score two in the final minutes of a game

[Pachuco]

What if Toronto had scored twice in the last 4 or 5 minutes after everyone had started booing/singing We're Not Going To Take It?

The TFC players would not have come over to acknowledge sec. 112 with clapping above their heads... they may very well have given the one finger salute to that corner before walking off the pitch...

What if Toronto turns around and wins their next 6 games. We win the CCL and win the MLS cup. Should we all turn around and apoligize to Mo?

I would have been quite happy if the team turned it around and won the game. Would've even given myself the finger if they did.

[Rudi]

and one thing to note --- 112 did a hell of a lot of singing for the team yesterday.

when we wern't singing, it wasn't because we want to shame the team, but because we wouldn't sing a song about 'marching on to victory' when the team has lost. It's about the right chants at the right time, not about protesting over performance. believe me.... we have songs for losing too.


and believe me, there has been a huge amount of internal discussion over here about what is 'the right chant' and the right time'.

We'd never sing 'it's too late here we come... allez allez... we've got you on the run' when we're down.
That's a clear example, the rest are less so. The chants that were coming out of 113 in the dying minutes
of the game yesterday were (in my opinion) chants that shouldn't be sung when we lose. Again, my opinion.
It's fairly obvious why certain chants/songs were used yesterday.

Your issue of "timing' has nothing to do with it. When else has 113 started the TFC Bounce when the team's losing? It's happened exactly once.


You may not be happy about a couple guys coming into 113 to sort out the hat situation
They weren't interested in "sorting out the hat situation", they were interested in trying to intimidate Duane (who didn't even touch Flush's hat).

Never once was the issue of Flush's hat mentioned by the guys who decided to be tough guys and walk into our section. I know because I was right there and nearly got arrested trying to diffuse the situation.

[TFC Cityboy]

What if Toronto turns around and wins their next 6 games. We win the CCL and win the MLS cup. Should we all turn around and apoligize to Mo?

I would have been quite happy if the team turned it around and one the game. Would've even given myself the finger if they did.

Not only that but if we make the playoffs I'll bare my arse in Nathan Phillips Square.

[Blizzard]

This is one of the things that I can't get my head around. Theoretically at the moment we have some of the best players we've ever had but we've gone backwards.
Look at the spine of the team - Frei, Cann/Attakora, JDG (if he'd play to his potential but lets not open that one again), Dero, Santos (given more time).
I think there's something fundamentally wrong at a man-management and tactical level.

That is exactly the problem. That and a disfunctional dressing room although I suppose that is part of the man-management issue.

[TFCRegina]

don't be ludicrous



i've actually seen godzilla and mothra fight, i've never seen toronto come back and score two in the final minutes of a game

I wish I didn't have to Plus One this.

[Parkdale]

Your issue of "timing' has nothing to do with it. When else has 113 started the TFC Bounce when the team's losing? It's happened exactly once.

Timing has EVERYTHING to do with it. Like I said, we've been dealing with the timing / appropriateness of chants for some time now (albeit internally). We've decided as a group that we won't be singing things like the Bounce when we've lost the game, so that's why it got a chilly reception from us. Everything else after that (hats, drunk people etc) has nothing to do with it --- but I'm responding to Duane's comments that we are being negative while others are keeping it positive. That's not the case.

[Heart of Stone]

What if Toronto turns around and wins their next 6 games. We win the CCL and win the MLS cup. Should we all turn around and apoligize to Mo?

Ummh... yes.

[Blizzard]

It's fairly obvious why certain chants/songs were used yesterday.

Your issue of "timing' has nothing to do with it. When else has 113 started the TFC Bounce when the team's losing? It's happened exactly once.


They weren't interested in "sorting out the hat situation", they were interested in trying to intimidate Duane (who didn't even touch Flush's hat).

Never once was the issue of Flush's hat mentioned by the guys who decided to be tough guys and walk into our section. I know because I was right there and nearly got arrested trying to diffuse the situation.

And it was those same guys that confronted Toronto Red and myself near gate 3 after the match!

[Rudi]

Timing has EVERYTHING to do with it. Like I said, we've been dealing with the timing / appropriateness of chants for some time now (albeit internally). We've decided as a group that we won't be singing things like the Bounce when we've lost the game, so that's why it got a chilly reception from us. Everything else after that (hats, drunk people etc) has nothing to do with it --- but I'm responding to Duane's comments that we are being negative while others are keeping it positive. That's not the case.
You're missing my point entirely.

No one thinks that The Bounce is a good song to sing in a losing cause. That's not why it was sung.

[Rudi]

And it was those same guys that confronted Toronto Red and myself near gate 3 after the match!
And myself and a couple of others on Atlantic after the match as well.

[Yeoman]

You're missing my point entirely.

No one thinks that The Bounce is a good song to sing in a losing cause. That's not why it was sung.

so why was it?

[Heart of Stone]

Listen fellows some of D.C.'s Barra Brava carry guns in their cars (presumably to "sort things out") ... I was shown one last year while in the RFK parking lot... an exact quote from the guy was "I've got a gun ... there it is (pointing to it)... you need to have a gun..."

Let's not get to this point here...

[Parkdale]

Listen fellows some of D.C.'s Barra Brava carry guns in their cars (presumably to "sort things out") ... I was shown one last year while in the RFK parking lot... an exact quote from the guy was "I've got a gun ... there it is (pointing to it)... you need to have a gun..."

Let's not get to this point here...



wha......????

I'm not sure if I'm laughing or headshaking or facepalming all at one. What kind of comment is that? craaaayyyyze

DC had the highest murder rate in the US for many years. I really can't see that shit happening here, and if it does, I'll be somewhere else, playing mini-golf or flying a kite or something less 'line of fire'

[Yeoman]

i don't know about you parky, but i always use a high powered rifle to shoot my balls into the hole during mini golf *shrug*
really not sure where that comment comes from, what are you getting at heart of stone?

[Jeffro]

Let's get one thing out of the way off the top: I'm not interested in fighting with other TFC supporters. Not now, not ever.

Although it wasn't me who did it (and I don't speak for all of U-Sector) I want to take this opportunity to publically apologize to Flush for his hat being thrown on the ground. It shouldn't have happened. Respectfully, I'd like to move past that.

From my/our perspective I would like to say that it wasn't OK that some of your guys walked into our section to get in our face either. The guy that was standing two inches from me was doing so for no other reason than to try and intimidate. Not cool. But, I'm going to move past that.

Enough of the RPB leadership know me that they can attest to the sincerity of my support and passion. I'm a (too) passionate guy and my temper can lead me to verbally snapping at times. So, I am sorry for saying what I was saying the way that I said it.

I am not sorry about the message. And I know that the rest of 113 shares my feelings. I don't want to start a cross-group flame war, but we need to air this out because there is a real difference in how we view things.

My position is this: There is a time and place for protests and negativity. During the 90 is NEVER that place. The role of a supporter's group is to make home a harder place for the opposition to play. When you wallow in the shit and turn on your own players you are making it harder for TFC to play there. That's not supporting. It's the opposite of it actually. If RPB goes the protest route at the next home game, I know that 113 will just sing louder. You, of course, are free to do as you please but I really, really, really don't want to see a repeat of the conflict we saw Saturday. I've never left BMO feeling shittier for having been there before. I don't want to do so ever again.

Please consider this: Take a protest outside of gate 4 prior to kick-off. Go there after. But, during the game you support for the full 90. To me that's what support means. I agree that Mo is an idiot and that there is a lot wrong with this club. But, I didn't sign up for this so I could only watch TFC win. "Through all of the highs and lows ..."

The only thing being negative in the stadium accomplishes is making it a more miserable experience for you and everyone around you. You are mistaken if you think that signing "We're not going to take this" in the 87th minute does anything. Doing it creatively, with a message, at a place where it's not as expected might.

Regardless of what you do I beg everyone that we keep our rage and hatred focused where it belongs next game: on the refs, the bastards in the other team's strip and on the Impact and Crew.

We're, after all, all in this together.


Doesn't mean that's what it means to all of us. If some people want to sing the bounce at the end of one of the most embarrassing losses in our history, go for it. You think we look bad for singing anti-Mo chants, I think you look just as a bad or worse going through your motions regardless of what goes on on the field.

And I'm not going to restrict my opinions to outside the stadium before and after the game where no one will hear them, care, or pay attention.

[jazzy]

Two goals in the last few minutes would just delay the inevitable by a week or two. It would have been papering over the cracks. I assume the players know there are bigger issues than losing yesterday.

If booing/singing "We're not going to take it" led to them scoring two goals we should have done it weeks ago when it might have made a difference. I'd rather have a team that plays with heart and a bit of fight and doesn't come to applaud me at the end of the game than have poor performance after poor performance and have the players applaud me.

^what more can you ask? after all we pay the price with our season's tickets......I don't go there as just an event, I go to see athelete's giving me their best in the greatest game in the world....That song did in a gracious way speak the feelings I have to MLSE.....I am not the fool in a leafs jersey.......

[Wull]

I started chanting Mo must go after an hour yesterday. I never join in the garcia chants and I rarely, if ever, boo a player wearing my team's shirt as it's counter-productive. I started it because he and preki are the reason we were watching what was going on. The personnel changes, team selection and formation put out are the cause of that abomination of a performance and the ones we've been subjected to over the last few months. The players look scared, clueless and disinterested at times. That's not from people being late to their seat so if I have to take the good games from the bad, they can put up with being told what's going on is unacceptable whether it be aimed at the coaching staff, FO or a direct result of their play. That's football and supporters anywhere I've seen, I refuse to differ from it here because Canadians don't seem to like negativity

[Roogsy]

Doesn't mean that's what it means to all of us. If some people want to sing the bounce at the end of one of the most embarrassing losses in our history, go for it. You think we look bad for singing anti-Mo chants, I think you look just as a bad or worse going through your motions regardless of what goes on on the field.

And I'm not going to restrict my opinions to outside the stadium before and after the game where no one will hear them, care, or pay attention.


QFFT...

[Shakes McQueen]

Go ahead and name me a team, anywhere in the world, where the fans never EVER boo or jeer their team during a game, if the play on the field warrants it.

Yesterday was embarrassing, and they deserved what they got. I'm all for tough love, not unconditional love.

- Scott

[Rudi]

I don't think anyone perceived We're Not Gonna Take It as an anti-Mo chant. And to be honest, that's the only one that we could hear at the front of 113 (I never knew of any anti-Mo stuff until I read about it here).

This is where I think the issue gets confused. 113 reacted to We're Not Gonna Take It, which came across (IMO) as anti-team more than anything.

As for the other stuff... I don't see it as group vs. group, but rather a few individuals acting for themselves and their friends. I'm definitely not happy the way certain things went down, but overall I think it's being overblown as something that it's not.

[Roogsy]

Go ahead and name me a team, anywhere in the world, where the fans never EVER boo or jeer their team during a game, if the play on the field warrants it.

Yesterday was embarrassing, and they deserved what they got. I'm all for tough love, not unconditional love.

- Scott


Exactly. If other guys want to sing "we're going to win the cup" while our team's ineptitude is on full display in front of us, I am not one to tell others how to support, I'm doing it my way. One of these displays of support will send MLSE the message they need to hear, the other will not.

[Parkdale]

This is where I think the issue gets confused. 113 reacted to We're Not Gonna Take It, which came across (IMO) as anti-team more than anything.

but you know us, and should know that we're not going to be singing anti-team chants while the team is on the field (or ever, really). Tensions were high and nerves were short, but I can assure you, we put a lot of thought into what chants work at what time.

If we have to be more literal next time, and just chant 'mo must go'... then we will.

[ArmenJBX]

For those of us who weren't there, what happened?

[Roogsy]

but you know us, and should know that we're not going to be singing anti-team chants while the team is on the field (or ever, really). Tensions were high and nerves were short, but I can assure you, we put a lot of thought into what chants work at what time.

If we have to be more literal next time, and just chant 'mo must go'... then we will.

Exactly. I mean if we're not going to employ common sense and logic and just jump to conclusions, how exactly did the "Bounce" come across at that moment? Certainly not supportive of the team as much as deluded and inappropriate. There were people all around the stadium scratching their heads, not just 112.

[FluSH]

Never once was the issue of Flush's hat mentioned by the guys who decided to be tough guys and walk into our section. I know because I was right there and nearly got arrested trying to diffuse the situation.

Let's be clear, only a couple of people saw who it was and even I didn't see him since I was below on the pitch talking to Duane above me over the rails. Maybe because I was talking to Duane everyone assumed it was him.

[Rudi]

but you know us, and should know that we're not going to be singing anti-team chants while the team is on the field (or ever, really). Tensions were high and nerves were short, but I can assure you, we put a lot of thought into what chants work at what time.

Dude, come on. That was spur of the moment.

Unless you knew ahead of time that DC was going to score in the 80th minute.

[FluSH]

but you know us, and should know that we're not going to be singing anti-team chants while the team is on the field (or ever, really). Tensions were high and nerves were short, but I can assure you, we put a lot of thought into what chants work at what time.

If we have to be more literal next time, and just chant 'mo must go'... then we will.

+1...

[Pachuco]

I know this is a conversation about what happened with supporters. But I'd like to point out that there were people around the entire stadium booing. I had 3 11 year olds 4 rows down in my section booing Hscanovic on his terrible attempts to control the ball. I would've liked to see someone try and shut up 11 year olds by doing whatever they did to the people in 112.

[Rudi]

Exactly. I mean if we're not going to employ common sense and logic and just jump to conclusions, how exactly did the "Bounce" come across at that moment? Certainly not supportive of the team as much as deluded and inappropriate. There were people all around the stadium scratching their heads, not just 112.
The Bounce was the most ridiculous response that people could think of to (what appeared to be) anti-team chanting, that's why I think it started.

Mob mentality isn't always logical (on either side).


Let's be clear, only a couple of people saw who it was and even I didn't see him since I was below on the pitch talking to Duane above me over the rails. Maybe because I was talking to Duane everyone assumed it was him.Which is exactly why it was poor form having a bunch of drunks coming into our section trying to exact revenge.

Especially when you knew that it wasn't Duane.

[FluSH]

Dude, come on. That was spur of the moment.

Unless you knew ahead of time that DC was going to score in the 80th minute.

Well we've been working on anti mo chants in our chant section for a while... and I am sure we would have started one or two if things didn't spark off as I spent the last 3 mins trying to diffuse the situation just like you. I tried to control as many as I could...

[FluSH]

Which is exactly why it was poor form having a bunch of drunks coming into our section trying to exact revenge.

Now this would be true if we had sent them... I had people at the end of the game that I didn't even know offering their help to deal with the situation. I'm just glad things did not escalate.

[Roogsy]

The Bounce was the most ridiculous response that people could think of to (what appeared to be) anti-team chanting, that's why I think it started.

Mob mentality isn't always logical (on either side).


There was no mob mentality from our side. But if a ridiculous response to an erroneous assumption is what explains the "Bounce" it certainly doesn't explain a whole lot of what went on afterwards. I tell you this much...I have never once seen an RPB provoking a Usector member but I have seen the opposite happen often but not recently. Yesterday, after the game it was a rewind to the old days when the groups did not get along and everything I saw was purely provocation from one side alone. I don't know what you can do to help or to avoid it from escalating but the warning is out there.

[Rudi]

1. Fair play on anti-Mo chants, but surely if actual thought was put into it as claimed, then We're Not Gonna Take It wouldn't have won out. It was spur of the moment, because I know you guys are a lot more creative and concise than that.

2. I never said they were 'sent',

[FluSH]

Which is exactly why it was poor form having a bunch of drunks coming into our section trying to exact revenge.

Especially when you knew that it wasn't Duane.

what? ppl wanted a riot... I think they could careless for Duane... heck I learned his name that day! I didn't see the dude standing 2 inches away frmo him... but I had my own situation to control with my people and the security and cops that were right there in our section. and I am sure you didn't see that because you had your own situation to deal with...

[Rudi]

1. Fair play on anti-Mo chants, but surely if actual thought was put into it as claimed, then We're Not Gonna Take It wouldn't have won out. It was spur of the moment, because I know you guys are a lot more creative and concise than that.

2. I never said they were 'sent',
Let me try this again.... (stupid iphone)

2. I never said they were sent, I said they came into our section, calling people out while heading straight for Duane. And Flush, while you don't know who Duane is, many others do. Your brother seemed to pick him out of a crowd pretty easily, something that you could have prevented had you just mentioned that Duane didn't touch your hat.

3. Roogsy, with all due respect, if you haven't seen an RPB provoking a U-Sector member then you clearly weren't paying attention yesterday. I personally nearly got myself arrested trying to stop shit from escalating, so I don't really need you "warning" me about anything.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone here, as I just came in to explain what I saw and give some of the perspective from the other side. Obviously it's morphed into something else so I'll bow out.

Anyone who wants to discuss this further can PM me here or contact me at the U-Sector board. Otherwise I'll continue my discussions with Rooney and Boris as I've been doing since last night.

[Roogsy]

3. Roogsy, with all due respect, if you haven't seen an RPB provoking a U-Sector member then you clearly weren't paying attention yesterday. I personally nearly got myself arrested trying to stop shit from escalating, so I don't really need you "warning" me about anything.



If you want to bury your head in the sand so be it. The warning is that things could easily get worse and go back to the way they were. If they do, don't sit there and wonder what went wrong. So if you don't want to be "warned" that's your business.

As for "paying attention" yesterday, I was. Every reaction by 112 was as a result of provocation from 113. If you don't want to see your people as insitagators, that's fine but to turn it around and blame RPB is tacitly inaccurate. If you almost got arrested, you only have the people around you to blame.

[Rudi]

If you want to bury your head in the sand so be it. The warning is that things could easily get worse and go back to the way they were. If they do, don't sit there and wonder what went wrong. So if you don't want to be "warned" that's your business.

As for "paying attention" yesterday, I was. Every reaction by 112 was as a result of provocation from 113. If you don't want to see your people as insitagators, that's fine but to turn it around and blame RPB is tacitly inaccurate. If you almost got arrested, you only have the people around you to blame.
I didn't want to post anymore, but I want to put out one fire before it becomes accepted knowledge around here.

I did not, and I am not, blaming RPB. Don't even try to paint me with that picture, it's total bullshit and unfair. That's the kind of crap that really incites group vs. group crap, and you should be smarter than that, FFS.

I am blaming certain individuals (on both sides) for the situation that I was involved in. I've been apologized to by the individuals from my side, and received nothing but flack from the individuals who aren't.

You don't know what I've said to people on my side, so please stop posting as if you do.

The chanting situation is what it is. One group chanting one thing, the other chanting another. There was no reason for individuals from RPB to come over into the heart of our section and try to start shit. That said, there was no reason for individuals within U-Sector to yell obscenities at Flush, or to grab his hat when he came over.

Everything else is just armchair quarterbacking, especially from those who aren't doing anything to help the situation.

Now I'm done.

[Roogsy]

Thanks for that. It's exactly what I was hoping for and what was needed. You don't realize that the perception has been (whether you intended it or not) that you DO blame RPB and are overlooking what your group did to instigate the nonsense. Since your admission wasn't forthcoming, I needed to get it out of you finally.

As for what you told your group, no I don't know nor did I claim to know nor do I want to know. That's your business.

We are well aware that there were members on our side that escalated the issue and should not have. Like you, we will deal with our side ourselves.

[London]

deleted

[Roogsy]

Let them sing bro. As long as Flush is ok, that's all we should care about.

What they meant is irrelevant. We do our own thing.

[AL-MO]

There was no reason for individuals from RPB to come over into the heart of our section and try to start shit. That said, there was no reason for individuals within U-Sector to yell obscenities at Flush, or to grab his hat when he came over.



Ah but you see you've got the order backwards Rudi. ;)

Anyway I'd rather move on and turn the page. There were a lot of angry people in that stadium yesterday myself included.

[billyfly]

I still want my wrought iron gate and if NEE and USector don't like it, piss off.

That goes for you too TRN.

[Yeoman]

LOL
where's the gate gate thread when you need it

[DOMIN8R]

I'm certain many won't like this request and sorry if I appear to be an ASS for asking this....but can we close this thread?

It has run it's course. The balance of the laundry can be washed in private.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

What's so bad about people booing the team yesterday?

If being in the stands isn't the time and place to publicly voice displeasure then I don't know what is. Gate 4 protest? Give me a break. You paid your money, you've been given dog meat for 4 years - if you're pissed off then let them know it.



:thumbsup:

[Chevy]

I still want my wrought iron gate and if NEE and USector don't like it, piss off.

That goes for you too TRN.


Sorry pal, you got to pay Garcia's salary instead, who runs like he's got an iron gate strapped to his back.

[Oldtimer]

I plan to chant MO MUST GO every home match remaining this year.

[jazzy]

I plan to chant MO MUST GO every home match remaining this year.

^...Good on ya...Still don't understand what was wrong with "We're not going to take it"....It was subtle and well within our rights of paying fans...thanx to those who made it up.....It was the ONLY relief I had at that travesty of a game....and the players as I've said in the past, Know it, thats why the missed communication and every man for themselves on the field........ we now see... Preki....this is soccer not prison.....by the way today Juventus vs Sampdoria .wow back and forth..Preki watch it and rid yourself of your tactical constipation

[razor787]

I dont see a damn thing wrong with "We're not gonna take it" and I hope it is chanted at the remaining games as well. I dont care if 113 likes it, they dont have to chant it, and we dont have to chant what they do.

If management isnt doing their job, its our right to show our discontent. I refuse to stand by, singing about how great things are, while watching us shit the bed.

[ecantona7]

The "mo must go" chant was fine as it's directed at Mo. I don't agree and didn't agree with the "we're not gonna take it". I didn't partake in that since it came across as a dig to the players. I didn't agree with the booing either. Booing the players is counter-productive. As long as the players are out there giving it their all, I'll sing for them and support them no matter what the result.

It's just a matter of what supporting a team means to you. To each their own.

[CretanBull]

The "mo must go" chant was fine as it's directed at Mo. I don't agree and didn't agree with the "we're not gonna take it". I didn't partake in that since it came across as a dig to the players. I didn't agree with the booing either. Booing the players is counter-productive. As long as the players are out there giving it their all, I'll sing for them and support them no matter what the result.

It's just a matter of what supporting a team means to you. To each their own.

I agree, to each his own, but did you really see a team out there giving it their all?

[ecantona7]

I agree, to each his own, but did you really see a team out there giving it their all?

I saw shit quality out there, yes, but I also saw a team trying 100%. To me, anyways that is.

[T.Reis]

I wonder if people in TFC's management (let's say Preki and now Dasovic) are going to go on their own inter office forum and start a big debate about how there are problems behind the scenes amongst TFC supporters.

Ohhhh the irony!


- LOL just kidding around folks!

[CretanBull]

I saw shit quality out there, yes, but I also saw a team trying 100%. To me, anyways that is.

Other than Gargan and Dero I didn't see a group of players who played with any urgency.

[ilikemusic]

Whether you call yourself a 'fan' or a 'supporter', if you pay the money, you can sing/chant whatever the heck you please. If you have a problem with what someone is singing, well then feel free to drown them out.

This holier than though, 'let me tell you what support is' bullshit is by far the most annoying aspect of supporter culture.

[ParadymeTFC]

So what exactly were the lyrics "We're not gonna to take it" chant?

If it was:

We're not gonna take it
Mo we ain't gonna take it
We're not gonna take it anymore

I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't know what all the hoopla is about.

[Phil]

I'm certain many won't like this request and sorry if I appear to be an ASS for asking this....but can we close this thread?

It has run it's course. The balance of the laundry can be washed in private.

I agree.

Things that are important and show improvement over previous issues:

We came here and had a civil discussion and I think we can all understand what the issue and agree that its not an overnight thing.

Going forward we will talk with Rudi, but it isnt a group issue as far as the incidnents.