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View Full Version : TFC Season Ticket Prices - are YOU getting Screwed? The answer is probably Yes



Pookie
09-09-2010, 09:34 AM
Inspired by the comments in another thread, I took some time to review our ticket prices throughout the stadium with other MLS Clubs.

People always say that the market dictates pricing. Based on the number of empty seats I see on a regular basis, I'd say that the market is asking MLSE for a correction.

IMO, outside of 'Mo, this should be the number 1 issue for ALL Supporters and fans of this team going forward.

Note that in doing this:

- some clubs do not publish season ticket prices so I left them off
- stadium seating doesn't always equate (eg. DC's seat plan is messed up) so I've made judgement calls in certain areas
- some of these clubs are publishing 2011 prices and I've used them where I can
- I haven't included "Field Tables" or other Premium Seats. At first glance, our pricing is on par with other high end offerings in that price point
- I've converted all prices to US$
- While we don't sell North Stand Season Tickets, I've estimated an annual price for them based on the fact that single game prices are identical to the Med Gray. MLSE calls this "Light Blue"
- I've not done a "fact check" or called FOs to verify. To the best of my knowledge, these are correct and I present them for discussion purposes. Perhaps the FO might offer their research.

Here's what I found:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4006/tfcprices.png

If you go on the cost of your seasons on a per game basis (ie. your price divided by the number of games included in your package), here's what we get:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8500/tfc3.png

Clearly, we are being charged some of the highest per seat prices in the league.

A few other things jump out at me:

- Lower 110 and 105 (Med Gray) are some of the worst seats for the money given the league comparison. Most teams do not charge more to sit lower near the corner.

- Upper Reds are also amongst the poorest value by comparison

- Light Grays appear to offer the best value in comparison to prices in the rest of the league for that seat location. Granted we are #2 in the league for that category but the differences are a few bucks per game

- We are #3 in Supporter Ticket pricing/per game behind LA and Seattle. I'll leave you to answer whether that is fair

Wagner
09-09-2010, 09:37 AM
It will be interesting this fall to see what happens...
interest is plateauing.
Prawny seats have been more empty.
I think the attendance at the Cruz Azul game shows the true soccer fans.

ensco
09-09-2010, 10:14 AM
The prices in suburban stadiums have to be lower, so they aren't that interesting to this discussion.

Seattle is by far the most comparable. It's a downtown stadium, an expansion team, similar buzz to us (maybe even better) in its market.

We're 50% higher than them across the board, except for supporters seats. Interesting.

rocker
09-09-2010, 10:25 AM
People always say that the market dictates pricing. Based on the number of empty seats I see on a regular basis, I'd say that the market is asking MLSE for a correction.

What does empty STH seats have to do with pricing though?

The seats were already purchased. The empty seats can't be a direct indicator of a problem with pricing. They could suggest people won't renew next year, or people could just be annoyed at the lack of success of the team.

Here's a hypothetical: if TFC was leading the league, you probably wouldn't see the empty seats. So that market "indicator" wouldn't exist if one wants to argue the STH ticket prices are too high.

Hitcho
09-09-2010, 10:39 AM
Well looking at these numbers and factoring in the urban/suburban issue, we're not as badly off as I thought we might be at the lower end of the scale. Clearly the expensive seats are a giant con and this is where MSLE will feel the pinch - people will not renew or will downgrade to cheaper seats. But as I've said in other threads, this worries me because they strike me as the kind of organisation that instead of lowering prices or taking the hit, they will just try and recoup the money from supporter and lower priced seats and/or concessions. That could be a death blow though, because every fan base has its limit and if they kill off the demand for cheap seats too, they will never get sell out crowds back in.

Section 117
09-09-2010, 10:41 AM
The problem is return on investment. We are paying close to top dollar for almost all of the seats compared to the rest of the MLS and we are shit.... I have sat down and watched LA, Seattle, Columbus, New York, Salt Lake and they play decent, entertaining brand of soccer. We on the other hand play anti soccer it is as much fun as watching the grass grow. This is problem

If we were winning and contending for a either the supporter's shield or home field advantage in the first round we would not be having this discussion IMO. Winning cures all and because our expectations for where the club should be and where we are now are polar opposite.

Sucks to be us and it will probably take a minimum of a year probably two or three to be where we want TFC to be. We need a new regime with an understanding of how to build a proper squad for the MLS and we need a coach who IMO coaches offensive possesion football not the kick balll we play now when we get into the final thrid of the field.

Nuvinho
09-09-2010, 10:44 AM
So when do we find out how much I have to give MLSE again? Its always a fun time of the year to get the bill and see the increase.

Pookie
09-09-2010, 10:46 AM
What does empty STH seats have to do with pricing though?

The seats were already purchased. The empty seats can't be a direct indicator of a problem with pricing. They could suggest people won't renew next year, or people could just be annoyed at the lack of success of the team.

Here's a hypothetical: if TFC was leading the league, you probably wouldn't see the empty seats. So that market "indicator" wouldn't exist if one wants to argue the STH ticket prices are too high.

It implies a couple of things, IMO.

1). There is an extremely soft resale market for these tickets at all price points

2). When given the opportunity to purchase tickets at cost for games like the Champions League, somewhere berween 3,000 and 4,000 go unsold.

To me that speaks to the fact the value for the price isn't there. All kinds of debates as to what defines value but simply put the cost doesn't justify it.

menefreghista
09-09-2010, 10:53 AM
Since we are doing comparisons, Vancouver's season seats will start at $319.

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/archive/feature06181001.aspx

I haven't been able to find the pricing for the rest of their seats though.

rocker
09-09-2010, 10:56 AM
It implies a couple of things, IMO.

1). There is an extremely soft resale market for these tickets at all price points

2). When given the opportunity to purchase tickets at cost for games like the Champions League, somewhere berween 3,000 and 4,000 go unsold.

To me that speaks to the fact the value for the price isn't there. All kinds of debates as to what defines value but simply put the cost doesn't justify it.

True, but that correction you say needs to happen doesn't necessarily mean a price reduction. If the team was winning the league, or if the quality of the league was higher generally, those empty seats may not exist.

Secondly. I wouldn't use CL as an indicator of a price level problem per se. People generally really don't understand the concept, so they wouldn't be running out to buy seats in droves. CL is also regularly scheduled on weeknights, which have always seen drops in attendance even in league games (see 2007).

greatwhitenorf
09-09-2010, 11:06 AM
Without improved performances and a playoff berth, there's no chance people will stand for higher ticket prices when renewing after this season. I won't and I'll be dropping some of my season's tickets rather than pay more. Again.

I've been a staunch supporter of how MLSE have operated the club overall so far. I've been patient waiting for the club to develop all the necessary aspects needed to compete. And that includes the arrival of real grass to let us recruit better talent.

So far, same old, same old. Same old inability to score, same old summer swoon, same old story with reffing on the road. Sure we got into Champions League, but I'm buying those seats on a game-by-game basis. And most scalpers are squealing to do below-face value deals right after kickoff. Got three decent east side Cruz Azul seats for $15 each three mins. after kickoff.

I've always believed this team, this league, this level of football won't get better unless we support it. This is now the point where I can't - wont' - spend any higher to continue that.

torontocelt
09-09-2010, 11:14 AM
Everyone already knows that anyone not in the cheaper sections are being ripped off, we have had this discussion many times. Usually the answer we get is that all of those other places mentioned are not Toronto so the pricing is entirely vindicated as TFC is still competitve with others sports in the city. Personally I dont buy that as the standard of football is atrocious for the price you pay if you are not in the cheap sections plus any seat in the stadium is decent as it is so small so there is no reason to have such huge price differences from section to section. MLS football is not the premiership so should not be able to charge premiership prices which is what TFC do in some sections. Yes I know that if I want to watch the premiership then I would have to go to England and yes I know that TFC is the only football club in Toronto but I don't buy that either for the insane pricing.

prizby
09-09-2010, 11:19 AM
look at teams in european leagues, even the club seats aren't as expensive

nascarguy
09-09-2010, 11:24 AM
I can not wait for the toronto star or the sun to do a story on this ! There going to rip mlse apart

Toronto Ruffrider
09-09-2010, 11:52 AM
It implies a couple of things, IMO.

1). There is an extremely soft resale market for these tickets at all price points

2). When given the opportunity to purchase tickets at cost for games like the Champions League, somewhere berween 3,000 and 4,000 go unsold.

To me that speaks to the fact the value for the price isn't there. All kinds of debates as to what defines value but simply put the cost doesn't justify it.

Pookie, great thread. I especially like your analysis of TFC's higher ticket prices. The most expensive seats are always the last to move, and they have low resale value. The cheap seats at BMO may not be bargain-basement by MLS standards, but market forces indicate that they are appropriately priced - i.e. they are always the first to sell out, and it's much easier to move a pair of light grey or supporters section seats. Clearly the gulf in ticket prices between the supporters section and midfield sections is too high. Midfield seats should not cost 5x as much as the cheapest seats, as the view and overall experience aren't 5x better in that part of the stadium.

Overall I'm not very enthusiastic about the ticket prices, but I think even less highly of BMO Field's concession prices. I know it would be difficult, but I would be eager to read an analysis of concession prices across MLS. I never buy any beer and I rarely buy any food at BMO for a reason.

maninb
09-09-2010, 12:18 PM
^ Agreed...I rarely buy beer and NEVER buy food...on the bright side BMO letting me bring in my own adult beverages is nice.... :)

Pookie
09-09-2010, 12:24 PM
^ thanks

What really jumped out at me when I first looked at it was the way that rows 1-19 of section 110 are treated. (and 105).

I appreciate that in 110 they made rows 20 and up Supporters' seats.

But the guy in row 19 is paying almost a 100% premium over the guy behind him for the same sightlines (and the dude is probably standing too).

Further, if you take the average prices across the league to sit behind the net in a non supporters' section, our North Stand costs more than 173% of the league average for those seats.

This was the section that was supposed to be for fans that were on the red list as a way to introduce them to the team and reward them for their patience and support. 173%

Considering that there are RPBs all throughout the stadium (and other SG members too), I have a hard time swallowing this.

(I won't even get in to a price comparison of the partial packs. As soon as we get into the comparison with the Marlies' pack, it isn't going to be pretty.)

JonO
09-09-2010, 12:34 PM
Your TFC prices are slightly off, but it may be worth correcting for accuracy. Also, it appears you are using the TFC renewal price (rather than new season ticket holders) and the seattle new ticket prices. So the seattle prices are even lower than posted...

from the TFC website: $1634* $1273 $931 $627 $361 $323
Not sure how much of a club fee is added though...

Troll
09-09-2010, 12:35 PM
I can not wait for the toronto star or the sun to do a story on this ! There going to rip mlse apart



I know they've already read this thread already, but this should probably be sent to the media, for good measure.

Fuck ML$E

deltox
09-09-2010, 12:36 PM
i got row 20 seat 1 and 2 in upper 110.... so basically....i get the best bang for my buck....no one else..... ME!!!!!!!!

Pookie
09-09-2010, 12:37 PM
Your TFC prices are slightly off, but it may be worth correcting for accuracy. Also, it appears you are using the TFC renewal price (rather than new season ticket holders) and the seattle new ticket prices. So the seattle prices are even lower than posted...

^ yep. I mentioned that in the notes before I posted it :)

TFC prices were converted to US$ using today's exchange rate. I used 2011 prices where they were available and that was the case in Seattle.

One error that I see is that I have TFC down for 17 games but I believe there are 18 in the package. 15 MLS + 2 Nutralite + 1 Carlsberg. That would bring the single seat prices down slightly.

Toronto Ruffrider
09-09-2010, 12:37 PM
^ thanks

What really jumped out at me when I first looked at it was the way that rows 1-19 of section 110 are treated. (and 105).

I appreciate that in 110 they made rows 20 and up Supporters' seats.

But the guy in row 19 is paying almost a 100% premium over the guy behind him for the same sightlines (and the dude is probably standing too).

I noticed the same thing at the ACC for Leafs games. Row 11 of the upper deck is the last row of the greens and row 12 is the first row of the purples. Green seats cost twice as much as purples.


Further, if you take the average prices across the league to sit behind the net in a non supporters' section, our North Stand costs more than 173% of the league average for those seats.

It was stupid to charge medium grey prices and expect them to sell out. The quality of view is light grey at best, and you have to crane your neck in order to look at the scoreboard.


(I won't even get in to a price comparison of the partial packs. As soon as we get into the comparison with the Marlies' pack, it isn't going to be pretty.)

Luckily I've got partials sans Marlies tickets, but even then they aren't cheap. My partials cost almost the exact same amount as single-game tickets, minus the Ticketnazi rape charges.

JonO
09-09-2010, 12:50 PM
^ yep. I mentioned that in the notes before I posted it :)
oops

Technorgasm
09-09-2010, 01:04 PM
WOw, this is very detailed. the effort and though you put into this is astounding.
well done
This is the facts to back up the argument. This totaly rocks. Thansk Pookie.

now some thoughts.
- Is a fuss really warranted for a mediam difference of $5 / game?
- Demand for tickets will govern the price. chances are if you are not happy with what you are paying there will be more than enough people. familes, business that will be only too happy to take your place.
- downtown stadium, with GO and TTC support garners more $.
- City invested team also will drive up the $
- Hosting majour tournaments outside of the MLS leage like World under 20s, all star, MLS cup ect will add to the $
- the north seat prices seem totally out of whack but. . . . if they CAN get it. . they will.

Prices will never ever be going down. unless TFC becomes drastically unpopular, even at that point (see jays, argos) they will prob only offer specials to certain games or more flexible buying options. . .

Yeoman
09-09-2010, 01:24 PM
http://renewal.wearederby.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=21

i will keep using that as my reference over and over again
in fact, i'm almost positive seasons to celtic and rangers are cheaper

Technorgasm
09-09-2010, 01:26 PM
King DAve tax: 0.05%

Nestease
09-09-2010, 02:23 PM
I took a look at the friendlies for each team. Listed are the 2010 Friendlies and whether they are included in the season ticket package:

Columbus Crew - N/A

Chicago Fire - Paris Saint-Germain (included), Legia Warsaw (included), AC Milan (included)

Chivas USA - Chivas de Guadalajara (Not included/ $18-50)

Colorado Rapids - N/A

Houston Dynamo - Club Deportivo Aguila (included)

DC United - AC Milan (included), El Salvador Nation Team (Charity Game/ Not Included/ $25-$40)

FC Dallas - Inter Milan (Not included)

Kansas City - Manchester United (Not Included/ $40-124, On-field Seating $200)

New England - Benfica (included), Cruzeiro (included)

LA Galaxy - Real Madrid (included), Boca Juniors (included), Inter Milan (Canceled)

New York Red Bulls - Juventus (Not included)

Real Salt Lake - Puntarenas F.C. (included)

Philadelphia Union - Celtic (included), Chivas de Guadalajara (included), Manchester United (Not included/ $30-135, On-field seating $225),

San Jose Earthquakes - Tottenham Hotspur (included)

Toronto FC - Bolton Wanderers (included)

Seattle Sounders - Boca Juniors (included), Celtic (included), Chivas de Guadalajara (included)

Pookie
09-09-2010, 03:38 PM
now some thoughts.
- Is a fuss really warranted for a mediam difference of $5 / game?

I guess it depends on where you sit. If you are in row 10 of 110, you are $10-15 per game per seat. That's $20-30 for a pair. $300-$450 per season.


- Demand for tickets will govern the price. chances are if you are not happy with what you are paying there will be more than enough people. familes, business that will be only too happy to take your place.

This is the big question isn't it? If the wait list is as big as they claim AND it is filled with corporations, we can look forward to years of price increases and the Leafs model in which tickets are purchased to be shared because a single person can't afford to go to all the games... maybe even some Personal Seat Licenses and in seat sushi.

But if this list is as strong as they claim, why are 3,000 - 4,000 seats going unsold for CCL games? Why are tickets going unsold on the "at (near) cost official exchange?


- downtown stadium, with GO and TTC support garners more $.

Not everyone lives downtown and not everyone takes the TTC. If you took a poll of the drivers you might find that the annual headaches such as the CNE, Gardiner Construction and Molson Indy are already taking their toll.

If anything, I'd pay more for a more convenient location (for me).

JonO
09-09-2010, 04:21 PM
maybe even some Personal Seat Licenses and in seat sushi.
Why the hate on for sushi? :D

J .
09-09-2010, 04:25 PM
The problem is return on investment. We are paying close to top dollar for almost all of the seats compared to the rest of the MLS and we are shit.... I have sat down and watched LA, Seattle, Columbus, New York, Salt Lake and they play decent, entertaining brand of soccer. We on the other hand play anti soccer it is as much fun as watching the grass grow. This is problem

If we were winning and contending for a either the supporter's shield or home field advantage in the first round we would not be having this discussion IMO. Winning cures all and because our expectations for where the club should be and where we are now are polar opposite.

Sucks to be us and it will probably take a minimum of a year probably two or three to be where we want TFC to be. We need a new regime with an understanding of how to build a proper squad for the MLS and we need a coach who IMO coaches offensive possesion football not the kick balll we play now when we get into the final thrid of the field.

I personally dont care how we win, just winning is important enough.

The ticket pricing is too expensive obviously. Will MLSE lower prices? no.

Toronto Ruffrider
09-09-2010, 04:38 PM
- the north seat prices seem totally out of whack but. . . . if they CAN get it. . they will.

I don't think they can get it. Most games don't sell out anymore, and there are often obvious bald patches in the north stand. Sadly, just as with the CSA and CMNT ticket prices at BMO, overpriced tickets in the north stand won't see a price drop, even if lots of tickets go unsold.

Roogsy
09-09-2010, 04:39 PM
I love all the Excel work you've done Pookie.


It gives me a hard-on.

Roogsy
09-09-2010, 04:41 PM
The problem is return on investment. We are paying close to top dollar for almost all of the seats compared to the rest of the MLS and we are shit.... I have sat down and watched LA, Seattle, Columbus, New York, Salt Lake and they play decent, entertaining brand of soccer. We on the other hand play anti soccer it is as much fun as watching the grass grow. This is problem

Definitely my biggest problem.

I don't mind paying for all my seats if we had a team that entertained me with goals and play, and that competed well enough to contend. I don't necessarily need a winner, just someone who looks like they can win given the right conditions. Right now, we have a team that we PRAY for a win as opposed to expect it.

Suds
09-09-2010, 04:43 PM
Definitely my biggest problem.

I don't mind paying for all my seats if we had a team that entertained me with goals and play, and that competed well enough to contend. I don't necessarily need a winner, just someone who looks like they can win given the right conditions. Right now, we have a team that we PRAY for a win as opposed to expect it.

Shit! That's the problem. I'm always at church praying the day after the game. Sorry MLSE, it's all my fault!

backbeat
09-09-2010, 04:55 PM
on the positive side MLSE is going to build that state-of-the art practice facility with 6 pitches or so - can't remember the exact details but they are investing in some very healthy ways to improve the long-term benefits to the team - like the grass pitch, which wasn't done on the cheap but rather at an EPL level.

The club announced that it is actively seeking a partner to build “one of the largest and most ambitious training facility projects in North America.”
TFC would ideally like to see “two or more state-of-the-art grass fields with 365 days availability with the installation of a winter bubble.”

http://www.theaircanadacentre.com/assets/default/Practice%20Facility.pdf

and the link to the video:

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/05/friday-potpourri-%E2%80%93-training-ground-%E2%80%93-the-academy-leeds-united-%E2%80%93-tfc-the-la-galaxy-on-saturday-night/

Brooker
09-09-2010, 05:16 PM
So when do we find out how much I have to give MLSE again? Its always a fun time of the year to get the bill and see the increase.

You don't have to.

nfitz
09-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Good work!

But why only 17 games for TFC? Wasn't it 18? We had 15 regular season games, 2 Voyageurs Cup games, and the Bolton Friendly.

Pookie
09-09-2010, 07:34 PM
Good work!

But why only 17 games for TFC? Wasn't it 18? We had 15 regular season games, 2 Voyageurs Cup games, and the Bolton Friendly.

^ yeah, I noticed that and mentioned it as an error. It would pull the per game ticket price down a few cents. My bad.

Hopefully the excel error doesn't deflate Roogsy's boner.