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denime
09-01-2010, 05:37 AM
Mornin'



TFC TV (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp)


Santo getting close (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/basketball/2010/08/31/15205111.html)


Harris, Hernandez Out For Dallas (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/08/harris-hernandez-out-dallas)


Academy Up To Second (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/08/academy-second)


MLS teams need to play up designated players (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2010/08/31/15203631.html)


The De Rosario conundrum (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/08/31/dobson_conundrum/)


Kids And Community Wins The Day (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2010/08/kids-and-community-wins-day)


Hume unfazed by life-threatening accident (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/hume-unfazed-by-life-threatening-accident/article1692180/)



SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshinegirl/)

London
09-01-2010, 06:09 AM
santos back, lets hope he isnt rushing it because of the 3 missing players.


lets hope dobson is correct in that all 3 will play saturday vs peru and skip the match in montreal

Ageroo
09-01-2010, 07:24 AM
I think Nana will definitely be back after the Peru match....too me it is a match to get him capped for Canada...and what better place then at home in front of family and friends. JDG and DeRo who knows....they might get sent back as Hart is in needs of assessing how the young players will stack up against a CONCACAF team. So he may let DeRo and JDG come back with the club......

Oldtimer
09-01-2010, 07:51 AM
Here is what an unbiased commenator said about JDG in an article about DPs:


Julian de Guzman (Toronto FC): Started, played ninety minutes in 1-0 defeat to Aarabe Unido of panama in the CONCACAF Champions League - Started, played ninety minutes in scoreless draw against Real Salt Lake

Losing in Panama and only getting a point at home, the week was a disappointing one for Toronto FC. De Guzman though was arguably the club’s best field player in both matches as his defensive presence in the midfield allowed the club’s attack to push forward. http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/08/30/2095327/dp-dissection-henry-gets-it-going

Avery Raimondo is a respected journalist who writes often on the league.

koryo
09-01-2010, 07:54 AM
Here is what an unbiased commenator said about JDG in an article about DPs:

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/08/30/2095327/dp-dissection-henry-gets-it-going

Avery Raimondo is a respected journalist who writes often on the league.

Good find.

Globetrotter
09-01-2010, 08:11 AM
I think Nana will definitely be back after the Peru match....too me it is a match to get him capped for Canada...

Never been fully clear on this, but I thought friendlies, no matter what the date, don't count towards being capped anymore???

Ageroo
09-01-2010, 08:16 AM
Never been fully clear on this, but I thought friendlies, no matter what the date, don't count towards being capped anymore???

I am not too clear about it either....maybe I am wrong as well. I have never been too clear on this either. He is going nowhere with regards to playing for another country in my opinion...but this is the perfect opportunity for him to make his debut for Canada at his home pitch.

Ageroo
09-01-2010, 08:19 AM
Here is what an unbiased commenator said about JDG in an article about DPs:

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/08/30/2095327/dp-dissection-henry-gets-it-going

Avery Raimondo is a respected journalist who writes often on the league.

That is really a good find for sure......I know I am probably the #1 JDG supporter on here and my opinion is very biased....that game against the Shite Bulls really showed me how much of a presence he is in the midfield....he transitions the ball from the defenders to the wings and strikers better than anyone on our squad. His defensive presence as well to break up plays really changes games for us......when he is not there to facilitate things our team is just mediocre.....again this is just my opinion. :)

tictoc
09-01-2010, 08:27 AM
Never been fully clear on this, but I thought friendlies, no matter what the date, don't count towards being capped anymore???
My understanding is that playing in a friendly doesn't tie a player to a national team. It has to be a FIFA sanctioned tournament in order for that to happen.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2010, 08:34 AM
I've heard both. I'd love a link. Tried to find it on FIFA and had a hell of a time...

Ageroo
09-01-2010, 08:58 AM
Alright.....more on this player capping.......not sure I can make much of it....but here goes....

As long as the match is sanctioned by FIFA and deemed an "A" match....it is an official match that a player can be capped in......what determines an "A" match is what I am trying to find out though....

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009%5fe.pdf

Around page 59 regarding International Matches......then around page 67 for Nationality rules....someone here may be able to figure it out.....:)

ManUtd4ever
09-01-2010, 09:04 AM
The article by Dobson alludes to a potential storm brewing regarding DeRo's contract status in the off season. It is interesting to contemplate DeRo's future in Red for a few few reasons.

DeRo deserves to be the highest paid player on TFC without question but the inflated contract of JDG makes that scenario a virtual impossibility. At the very least I agree with the notion that he should be offered a DP level contract extension (in the 750K-1M range) to provide much needed cap relief and satisfy DeRo's well documented salary demands.

The issue is that MoJo's future with TFC is directly linked to the club's prospects of playoff success which seem very unlikely at this point. Is Tom Anselmi even willing to allow MoJo to negotiate a contract extension of that magnitude at this uncertain point of his tenure? If TFC fails to qualify for the playoffs, MoJo will likely be dismissed at the end of the season. DeRo may very well find himself in the position of being a free agent while TFC brass searches for for a new General Manager.

Our only hopes of watching our captain retire in Red could be based on his unwavering loyalty and patience...

Roogsy
09-01-2010, 09:22 AM
^ Yup, yup and yup.

tictoc
09-01-2010, 09:34 AM
The article by Dobson alludes to a potential storm brewing regarding DeRo's contract status in the off season. It is interesting to contemplate DeRo's future in Red for a few few reasons.

DeRo deserves to be the highest paid player on TFC without question but the inflated contract of JDG makes that scenario a virtual impossibility. At the very least I agree with the notion that he should be offered a DP level contract extension (in the 750K-1M range) to provide much needed cap relief and satisfy DeRo's well documented salary demands.

The issue is that MoJo's future with TFC is directly linked to the club's prospects of playoff success which seem very unlikely at this point. Is Tom Anselmi even willing to allow MoJo to negotiate a contract extension of that magnitude at this uncertain point of his tenure? If TFC fails to qualify for the playoffs, MoJo will likely be dismissed at the end of the season. DeRo may very well find himself in the position of being a free agent while TFC brass searches for for a new General Manager.

Our only hopes of watching our captain retire in Red could be based on his unwavering loyalty and patience...
I think you've got it exactly correct. DeRo deserves more money. He should get something in the range you specified. And I think that management will give it to him.

Mo won't be the one to renegotiate it. At least not until the playoff picture is sorted out. MLSE isn't that foolish.

What worried me about the Dobson article was the line, "Houston we've got a problem. No pun intended."

Is it possible that DeRo has mentioned something about returning to Houston? Perhaps Dobson is alluding to DeRo being willing to leave, in general? Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Pachuco
09-01-2010, 10:09 AM
I can't believe how quicly Maicon made himself a key player on this team. Talk about having an immediat impact. We need him back badly.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-01-2010, 10:15 AM
Hume comes off as a bit of dick in the article.
Cech sounds like a nice guy reaching out.

anto7
09-01-2010, 10:49 AM
Hume comes off as a bit of dick in the article.
Cech sounds like a nice guy reaching out.
Check the comments at the bottom of the article. Sounds like Hume was referring to Morgan not Cech.

SilverSamurai
09-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Alright.....more on this player capping.......not sure I can make much of it....but here goes....

As long as the match is sanctioned by FIFA and deemed an "A" match....it is an official match that a player can be capped in......what determines an "A" match is what I am trying to find out though....

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009%5fe.pdf

Around page 59 regarding International Matches......then around page 67 for Nationality rules....someone here may be able to figure it out.....:)
Nana gets a "cap" for Canada during the friendly, but isn't cap tied because only WCQ and official FIFA tourneys (Gold Cup for CONCACAF)
Canada can't cap tie any new players until the GC next year or WCQ starting after.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2010, 11:22 AM
So "A" ranked friendlies are worth how much in FIFA points? I know they're worth a fraction of GC and WCQ games.

Sidenote: I'm almost positive Nigel has spoke about cap tieing these lads through friendlies. This must be a recent development, no? Like in the last year?

bee dubya
09-01-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm sure this has been posted before but looks like CONCACAF are revisiting their current World Cup Qualification set-up.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/67/world-cup/2010/08/31/2097344/buenos-views-new-concacaf-qualifying-proposal-levels-playing

Roogsy
09-01-2010, 11:28 AM
I think you've got it exactly correct. DeRo deserves more money. He should get something in the range you specified. And I think that management will give it to him.

Mo won't be the one to renegotiate it. At least not until the playoff picture is sorted out. MLSE isn't that foolish.

What worried me about the Dobson article was the line, "Houston we've got a problem. No pun intended."

Is it possible that DeRo has mentioned something about returning to Houston? Perhaps Dobson is alluding to DeRo being willing to leave, in general? Maybe I'm reading too much into it.


If Houston wanted him back, I would say there is likely to be interest from the DeRo camp. He still has interests in the Houston area not to mention a fanbase that appreciated him. Combine that with Houston's underperformance this year and I am sure they'd be interested in a MVP coming back to their ranks. The only thing protecting TFC from letting this happen is the single-entity structure in MLS. Other than that, TFC is going to need to open up their wallets or risk pissing off their best player.

Oldtimer
09-01-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm sure this has been posted before but looks like CONCACAF are revisiting their current World Cup Qualification set-up.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/67/world-cup/2010/08/31/2097344/buenos-views-new-concacaf-qualifying-proposal-levels-playing

It wouldn't make things any easier for Canada.

menefreghista
09-01-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm sure this has been posted before but looks like CONCACAF are revisiting their current World Cup Qualification set-up.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/67/world-cup/2010/08/31/2097344/buenos-views-new-concacaf-qualifying-proposal-levels-playing

I believe that if this new set up is approved qualifying would have to start in one year.

menefreghista
09-01-2010, 11:34 AM
It wouldn't make things any easier for Canada.

It may not make it easier, but it gives Canada a better chance of going further into qualifying and lasting longer.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Qualifying starts next fall anyway...

menefreghista
09-01-2010, 11:41 AM
Qualifying starts next fall anyway...

For South America it does.

But traditionally CONCACAF would have started in 2012. With the new format and the additional matches it will have to start in 2011 to fit them all in.

Jeffro
09-01-2010, 11:50 AM
I love DeRo as much as most people here, but I don't get why people think that at 32 Dwayne deserves to earn double what he ever made during his prime.

Oldtimer
09-01-2010, 11:54 AM
good news about Santos:


Still unable to field its top offensive lineup either because of injuries or circumstances, it appears Toronto FC will at least get one key attacker back Saturday in Dallas.
Striker Maicon Santos, injured in a 2-1 win over Chivas USA on August 7th, said Tuesday he feels good and is itching to return.


http://www.lfpress.com/sports/soccer/2010/08/31/15203696.html

JonO
09-01-2010, 12:12 PM
The other question I have is who will pay him more. I understand why he feels he deserves more, but what are his options. Houston was paying him a fraction of what he earns now. Will they pay him more than double they had him for. I think realistically, the main competitor would be Vancouver, but I have no idea how he would fit in their plans...

Blizzard
09-01-2010, 12:19 PM
That is really a good find for sure......I know I am probably the #1 JDG supporter on here and my opinion is very biased....that game against the Shite Bulls really showed me how much of a presence he is in the midfield....he transitions the ball from the defenders to the wings and strikers better than anyone on our squad. His defensive presence as well to break up plays really changes games for us......when he is not there to facilitate things our team is just mediocre.....again this is just my opinion. :)

Exactly. All we need do is compare a 1 nil narrow road loss to a 4-1 pasting at home.

Julian played in New York but was suspended for the Toronto match. I think it's a clear indicator of what his value to the team is. Some may complain about his offence ... ok, fair enough ... but what about what he means to us in other areas of play.

Sure they were both losses but with him in the line-up, we had a reasonable game and with some luck could have had a draw. Without him, we were shamed.

ensco
09-01-2010, 12:28 PM
My $0.02....I believe that Anselmi negotiated the deal for JDG and would negotiate any deal for Dero. So Mo's status doesn't really matter from an MLSE POV on this issue.

Those two players aren't part of the marketing story in the community, they ARE the marketing story.

But whether Dero would want to sign not knowing who the manager will be, that's another matter.

rocker
09-01-2010, 12:39 PM
I think De Ro makes what he deserves.

The funny thing is, seeing De Ro every week, I'm not as enamoured with him as I was when he played for Houston. I guess it's cuz I see his flaws as well as his highlights.

De Ro is a very good player, don't get me wrong, but if he involved his teammates more, could shoot better, didn't fall down 5 times per game, wasn't offside all the time, I'd say "give him more money."
By the time he's done with TFC he will have made probably nearly 2 million dollars with this team... not bad for a guy who didn't make the jump to Europe.

CretanBull
09-01-2010, 01:39 PM
The people who complain about JDG are the same ones who complained about Robbo...its a role that some people just don't appreciate or perhaps even understand.

Having said that, in league with a low salary cap you have to spend your money wisely and so far - in this league - that means using DP status for goals and other offensive production.

JDG has the talent to go forward more and be a box to box guy. I think it's Preki's defense-first philosophy that's holding him back - which is fine if thats what the coach wants and its working for the team.

Roogsy
09-01-2010, 02:15 PM
I think De Ro makes what he deserves.

Really? The leading scorer for our team the past 2 years should be making the 3rd highest amount on the payroll behind 2 guys that haven't produced any sort of impact in comparison?

JonO
09-01-2010, 02:23 PM
Really? The leading scorer for our team the past 2 years should be making the 3rd highest amount on the payroll behind 2 guys that haven't produced any sort of impact in comparison?
No - he just thinks that the other 2 guys are overpaid :p

But realistically - the only way we would have gotten those guys is to offer the big salary. DeRo got a big increase when he signed with us. In vacuo - he was making a good salary

Steve
09-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Really? The leading scorer for our team the past 2 years should be making the 3rd highest amount on the payroll behind 2 guys that haven't produced any sort of impact in comparison?

It's not about comparing him to other players on our team. Just because other players may be making more, doesn't mean he DESERVES more.

Sadly, salary is not about how much you SHOULD make, it's about how much you CAN make. I may save my company millions of dollars a year, and think they should be paying me half of that, but that's not important. Even if I AM saving my company that much money, the important factor is, how much can I convince someone to pay me? That's the only real factor. If I don't think my company pays enough, I apply to other jobs, in other companies, and try to get them to pay more. If they won't either, is my company REALLY underpaying me?

Additionally, he's making 450k. That's nothing to sneeze at. Sure, he's the leading scorer on our team, but let's look at the top 5 goal scorers in the MLS this season:

1) Buddle - 13 goals - 188k
2) Angel - 12 goals - 1,900k
3) Freddy Montero - 10 goals - 180k
4) DeRo - 9 goals - 450k
5) Le Toux - 9 goals - 120k

So, in that light, is he really being shafted? I don't think so, since he makes more than double anyone on that list except for Angel.

Essentially, though I agree he probably shouldn't be 3rd in the pecking order on the team, I don't think that his salary, when compared to the rest of the league, is actually off base. In fact, I would say he's probably a little high (a few years ago he was making what, 190k in houston?)

Roogsy
09-01-2010, 03:23 PM
Ah but there is the rub. Buddle and Montero are young and probably on the last legs of their contracts that will soon be negotiated. Neither had proven themselves in MLS until very recently. They will either be making a move to Europe or getting a serious boost to their contract. You will always find an underpaid player to compare against. That is a silly argument. What you should be doing is comparing apples to apples. Who has consistently been an MVP in the league other than DeRo for the past decade? Landycakes perhaps? And what is he making? There is a comparison for you. Comparing Buddle is silly. Why don't we also compare his average production since being in the league to DeRo's, including his year with TFC?

Wull
09-01-2010, 03:25 PM
The people who complain about JDG are the same ones who complained about Robbo...its a role that some people just don't appreciate or perhaps even understand.

Having said that, in league with a low salary cap you have to spend your money wisely and so far - in this league - that means using DP status for goals and other offensive production.

JDG has the talent to go forward more and be a box to box guy. I think it's Preki's defense-first philosophy that's holding him back - which is fine if thats what the coach wants and its working for the team.

Most of us on here in the anti-jdg brigade are also very pro-Robbo

Carefree
09-01-2010, 04:22 PM
And why does the Sun keep referring to OBW as "speedy"???

That's like talking about the "intimidating atmosphere" at Crew Stadium. :smilielol5:

CretanBull
09-02-2010, 05:12 AM
Most of us on here in the anti-jdg brigade are also very pro-Robbo

Not based on what I've seen...perhaps its just the loudest ones.

Steve
09-02-2010, 07:50 AM
Ah but there is the rub. Buddle and Montero are young and probably on the last legs of their contracts that will soon be negotiated. Neither had proven themselves in MLS until very recently. They will either be making a move to Europe or getting a serious boost to their contract. You will always find an underpaid player to compare against. That is a silly argument. What you should be doing is comparing apples to apples. Who has consistently been an MVP in the league other than DeRo for the past decade? Landycakes perhaps? And what is he making? There is a comparison for you. Comparing Buddle is silly. Why don't we also compare his average production since being in the league to DeRo's, including his year with TFC?

Ok, let's compare Buddle to DeRo shall we?

Age:
Buddle - 29
DeRo - 32

Not too dissimilar

Year joined MLS:
Buddle 2001
DeRo 2001

Hmm, not looking like apples to oranges yet

Goals scored on their first team
Buddle: Crew 2001-2005 - 42 goals
DeRo: San Jose 2001-2005 - 25 goals

Now, goals scored for their entire career (including Toronto)
Buddle: 83 Goals - 211 games
DeRo: 69 Goals - 230 games

So, average goal production in the league (Buddle was with Toronto for 10 whole games, he was traded in June of our first year ffs)

Buddle: 1 goal every 2.54 games
DeRo: 1 goal every 3.33 games

So how is that comparing apples to oranges again?

denime
09-02-2010, 08:32 AM
^ OUCH

Looking at that statistic and the way some people here think about Mista and JDG,De Ro should get his salary cut down in half.

Hey,Buddle is better in all individual statistics vs DeRo but he is making half the money.

Buddle - 188k
DeRo - 450k

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 08:36 AM
Ok, let's compare Buddle to DeRo shall we?

Age:
Buddle - 29
DeRo - 32

Not too dissimilar

Year joined MLS:
Buddle 2001
DeRo 2001

Hmm, not looking like apples to oranges yet

Goals scored on their first team
Buddle: Crew 2001-2005 - 42 goals
DeRo: San Jose 2001-2005 - 25 goals

Now, goals scored for their entire career (including Toronto)
Buddle: 83 Goals - 211 games
DeRo: 69 Goals - 230 games

So, average goal production in the league (Buddle was with Toronto for 10 whole games, he was traded in June of our first year ffs)

Buddle: 1 goal every 2.54 games
DeRo: 1 goal every 3.33 games

So how is that comparing apples to oranges again?

Apples to oranges would also require that DeRo play the same position as Buddle for the period in question. While DeRo has played striker from time to time, his principal position has always been a free-floating midfielder just behind the striker. For this analysis to work, you'd also have to include assists since DeRo's play contributes to others scoring (including strikers like Buddle) whereas Buddle's does not, hence the reason why DeRo's teams have made multiple finals appearances and Buddle's have made far fewer.

Do you have those numbers? We're talking about impact here. DeRo has it. Does Buddle? You selectively chose to reflect only one part of a forward's numbers. Where are the others?

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 08:37 AM
^ OUCH

Looking at that statistic and the way some people here think about Mista and JDG,De Ro should get his salary cut down in half.

Hey,Buddle is better in all individual statistics vs DeRo but he is making half the money.

Buddle - 188k
DeRo - 450k



By that rationale, JDG should be making 100k and all defenders should be making 50k.

Parkdale
09-02-2010, 08:40 AM
The De Rosario conundrum (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/08/31/dobson_conundrum/)


He's proud to put on the jersey, whether its Canadian red or Toronto FC red. And yet, it's a sham that he gets paid only $450,000 per year. (This is where you check Mista's bloated salary and tell me who the better player is.) De Rosario is the team spokesman, and does a large amount of charity work. He' can't be happy with this current situation. Wouldn't you agree? And the suits that run MLSE better start paying attention or else they're going to have a serious problem on their hands. I don't see how DeRo can take another season under the status quo. It's simple. De Rosario deserves to be the highest paid player on the team, and if things don't change, Houston we've got a problem. No pun intended.

Maybe I'm just speculating here.... but wouldn't DeRo have to get the okay from the 'MLSE suits' for his PartyPoker sponsorship? Maybe MLSE said 'We can't pay you more, BUT we will let you get paid by a sponsor that we normally wouldn't touch'. Maybe it's just speculation, but I bet it's a nice way to pad his paycheck a bit.

Steve
09-02-2010, 08:47 AM
Really? The leading scorer for our team the past 2 years should be making the 3rd highest amount on the payroll behind 2 guys that haven't produced any sort of impact in comparison?


Ah but there is the rub. Buddle and Montero are young and probably on the last legs of their contracts that will soon be negotiated. Neither had proven themselves in MLS until very recently. They will either be making a move to Europe or getting a serious boost to their contract. You will always find an underpaid player to compare against. That is a silly argument. What you should be doing is comparing apples to apples. Who has consistently been an MVP in the league other than DeRo for the past decade? Landycakes perhaps? And what is he making? There is a comparison for you. Comparing Buddle is silly. Why don't we also compare his average production since being in the league to DeRo's, including his year with TFC?


Apples to oranges would also require that DeRo play the same position as Buddle for the period in question. While DeRo has played striker from time to time, his principal position has always been a free-floating midfielder just behind the striker. For this analysis to work, you'd also have to include assists since DeRo's play contributes to others scoring (including strikers like Buddle) whereas Buddle's does not, hence the reason why DeRo's teams have made multiple finals appearances and Buddle's have made far fewer.

Do you have those numbers? We're talking about impact here. DeRo has it. Does Buddle? You selectively chose to reflect only one part of a forward's numbers. Where are the others?



Hey, I wasn't the one who brought up scoring as a way to indicate that DeRo was the be all and end all. You said that because DeRo was the leading scorer on our team, he should be making more. You said that we should compare Buddle's average production vs DeRos, you said that Buddle hadn't made an impact in MLS until recently (which is not true) and that it is because he is so young (he's old enough that he should be making peak money). I just provided the stats.

And yes, I understand that DeRo provides more than Buddle, and I don't think that Buddle is a better player than DeRo, but if you're going to try to use goals scored to justify why DeRo should be making more than he is, then you're going to have to defend that point of view when he is compared to other players in the league.

Oldtimer
09-02-2010, 08:58 AM
Maybe I'm just speculating here.... but wouldn't DeRo have to get the okay from the 'MLSE suits' for his PartyPoker sponsorship? Maybe MLSE said 'We can't pay you more, BUT we will let you get paid by a sponsor that we normally wouldn't touch'. Maybe it's just speculation, but I bet it's a nice way to pad his paycheck a bit.

Given that partypoker.net advertises at TFC games, one could hardly say they are a sponsor they "wouldn't touch."

BTW, MLS league rules prevent online gaming sites from being jersey sponsors, but don't have limitations on other links with the clubs.

There is little question, though, that DeRo's status at TFC is what enables him to be a "face" of that site, and therefore pads his income.

Oldtimer
09-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Buddle will always have a place of honour in my mind, as being the one who set up DD for the "first goal." If it wasn't for his excellent play in the corner and the cross, it wouldn't have happened (although it took DD's superb sliding finish to put it in).

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 09:02 AM
Hey, I wasn't the one who brought up scoring as a way to indicate that DeRo was the be all and end all. You said that because DeRo was the leading scorer on our team, he should be making more. You said that we should compare Buddle's average production vs DeRos, you said that Buddle hadn't made an impact in MLS until recently (which is not true) and that it is because he is so young (he's old enough that he should be making peak money). I just provided the stats.

And yes, I understand that DeRo provides more than Buddle, and I don't think that Buddle is a better player than DeRo, but if you're going to try to use goals scored to justify why DeRo should be making more than he is, then you're going to have to defend that point of view when he is compared to other players in the league.


I did say scoring and I also said production. Production entails more than scoring does it not? Does it not at the very least ask for assists as well? How about scoring opportunities? Shots on net? And the ultimate tests of production...playoff appearances, finals appearances and actual championships.

Put that production up against Buddle and then tell me they should be making the same.

ManUtd4ever
09-02-2010, 09:03 AM
I think everyone can agree that DeRo has been the undisputed MVP of TFC since he signed with the club. Based on his performance as a Red (2 career seasons) he is definitely in line for a moderate raise. The fact that JDG and Mista are overpaid and Buddle is underpaid are inconsequential as far as DeRo's financial entitlement is concerned. The only underlying factor is that DeRo will not be the highest paid player on TFC despite receiving a potential raise next season and he will have to be willing to live with that in order to remain a Red...

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 09:05 AM
Maybe I'm just speculating here.... but wouldn't DeRo have to get the okay from the 'MLSE suits' for his PartyPoker sponsorship? Maybe MLSE said 'We can't pay you more, BUT we will let you get paid by a sponsor that we normally wouldn't touch'. Maybe it's just speculation, but I bet it's a nice way to pad his paycheck a bit.


There are various clauses in the contracts that have to do with sponsorship. For example, DeRo is sponsored by Puma even though Adidas is an MLS sponsor. So his poker sponsorship may or may not be tied to his TFC contract. There are two things that point to it perhaps (I say perhaps because I don't know for certain) being an ex-TFC sponsorship arrangement. Whenever you see a player OUTSIDE his TFC kit sponsoring something, it's usually an individual contract not a team sponsorship arrangement. Even though Pokerstars also has sponsorship ties to BMO Field and TFC.


By the way...in case you missed it, it is pokerstars not party poker.

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 09:06 AM
I think everyone can agree that DeRo has been the undisputed MVP of TFC since he signed with the club. Based on his performance as a Red (2 career seasons) he is definitely in line for a moderate raise. The fact that JDG and Mista are overpaid and Buddle is underpaid are inconsequential as far as DeRo's financial entitlement is concerned. The only underlying factor is that DeRo will not be the highest paid player on TFC despite receiving a potential raise next season and he will have to be willing to live with that in order to remain a Red...

True. The question here is will he choose to live with that if there are other offers on the table? And the subsequent question for us would be how do we feel about his not being a red? What will it do to our team?

Parkdale
09-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Given that partypoker.net advertises at TFC games, one could hardly say they are a sponsor they "wouldn't touch."



they wern't there before Dero though. I think it all came in as one package.

Steve
09-02-2010, 09:16 AM
I did say scoring and I also said production. Production entails more than scoring does it not? Does it not at the very least ask for assists as well? How about scoring opportunities? Shots on net? And the ultimate tests of production...playoff appearances, finals appearances and actual championships.

Put that production up against Buddle and then tell me they should be making the same.

I didn't say they should be making the same, I said when compared to the rest of the league, his salary might be a little high.

It seems to me like you're moving the goal posts now. You started with saying he should be paid more because he is the leading goal scorer, I responded to show you that people in the league scoring more are paid less, you said that was comparing apples to oranges because those people were young, and hadn't done proven themselves in the league until recently, I responded with career stats for Buddle and DeRo showing them to be surprisingly similar (in when they joined the league, and in performance throughout their careers, in fact, the only time Buddle had a problem was with us, and that was only for 10 games). Then you said scoring isn't relevant, and it's about playoff appearances and assists.

Again, I never said they should be making the same! I was responding to your comments about scoring and pay. That's all. I think DeRo, in this league, is probably worth about 400k. I think he IS worth more than Buddle. I just don't think he's worth DP money. He has no other options to make that kind of money, is a lifer in MLS, and though there are people making more than him and contributing less, there are also people making MUCH less than him and contributing either more, or close to the same. I accept the fact that people want him on DP money, I can see the arguments for it, but personally, I don't think he has a great bargaining position to get it, and I don't think, in this league, at this time, he is a DP player. And please don't bring up Mista and JDG, because I have never said that THEY should be DP players either.

ManUtd4ever
09-02-2010, 09:23 AM
Didn't Dero sign a four-year contract when he joined TFC? He has two years remaining. He's not a free agent. He doesn't have the freedom to move. His only choice is to hold out. Every player in MLS thinks he is underpaid, doesn't mean he can just walk away from his contract.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2009/01/22/dwayne-de-rosario.html

Good question. I was under the impression that DeRo had a verbal agreement with Mo to renegotiate his contract at some point. Last off season DeRo alluded to broken promises from management and so forth...

ManUtd4ever
09-02-2010, 09:29 AM
True. The question here is will he choose to live with that if there are other offers on the table? And the subsequent question for us would be how do we feel about his not being a red? What will it do to our team?

TFC wouldn't have qualified for the Champions League group stage and would probably be near last place in MLS without DeRo, plain and simple. I don't even want to contemplate that scenario...

Oldtimer
09-02-2010, 09:38 AM
Good article on MLS developing players through their academies:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/mls-continues-to-develop-players


If anyone had told me that there would be as many quality young players as their are in MLS right now only a year and a half ago, at the start of the 2009 season, I would have laughed at them. The progress that has been made in a short period of time is pretty astonishing.

__wowza
09-02-2010, 10:16 AM
Good article on MLS developing players through their academies:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/mls-continues-to-develop-players

as odd as it sounds, this is the trophymanager mentality.. and it's completely understandable. youth academies are a return investment. look at the amounts players like clint dempsey, landon donovan and maurice edu have gone for. they not only increase the quality of the product on the field for relatively cheap, but the return they yield in the long run for the clubs is astonishing.

of course, we all know this. it just has to be repeated sometimes.

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 10:27 AM
It seems to me like you're moving the goal posts now. You started with saying he should be paid more because he is the leading goal scorer, I responded to show you that people in the league scoring more are paid less, you said that was comparing apples to oranges because those people were young, and hadn't done proven themselves in the league until recently, I responded with career stats for Buddle and DeRo showing them to be surprisingly similar (in when they joined the league, and in performance throughout their careers, in fact, the only time Buddle had a problem was with us, and that was only for 10 games). Then you said scoring isn't relevant, and it's about playoff appearances and assists.

Yes and no. I initially asked a question whether the poster I was responding to believed that our leading goal scorer should be 3rd on the list. That does not necessarily imply that my belief is that he should be the top paid player simply because he leads in goals. As I mentioned in my last response, it's his overall production and impact on the pitch that has me convinced that he shouldn't be put behind Mista and JDG in overall compensation. It seems TFC is willing to compensate a player for "reputation" by awarding DP contracts to these two, why not the guy who has actually won championships?

I simply answered your question as you posed it. Had you asked "why should DeRo be paid more than the others" I would have given you a more complete answer.

JonO
09-02-2010, 10:35 AM
^ dude... stop digging :devil:

Jeffro
09-02-2010, 10:48 AM
My question is, why was it okay for him to play through his prime for peanuts in Houston, and now that he's in Toronto he "needs" to be the top paid player. So he just came to Toronto at the end of his career for a big final pay day? If that's the case, fuck off!

I don't care what JDG or Mista makes in comparison. Those are to be assessed on their own merits as to whether they're worth it.


DWAYNE IS 32 YEARS OLD!! He is on a downward curve. I ask again, why should he make more than double what he made during his prime, when he was winning mvp awards and MLS cups?

denime
09-02-2010, 10:50 AM
Yes and no. I initially asked a question whether the poster I was responding to believed that our leading goal scorer should be 3rd on the list. That does not necessarily imply that my belief is that he should be the top paid player simply because he leads in goals. As I mentioned in my last response, it's his overall production and impact on the pitch that has me convinced that he shouldn't be put behind Mista and JDG in overall compensation. It seems TFC is willing to compensate a player for "reputation" by awarding DP contracts to these two, why not the guy who has actually won championships?

I simply answered your question as you posed it. Had you asked "why should DeRo be paid more than the others" I would have given you a more complete answer.

The fact is Mista and JDG got their contracts based on their success in Europe,something that DeRo doesn't have.So who is to blame DeRo because he never made a cut in Europe or the other two guys with successful carriers in Europe?

Comparing DeRo with Mista is apple and oranges since winning MLS cup is not even close to winning La liga and UEFA Cup something that Mista has in his resume.

You are right when it comes how much DeRo means to our team,but that has nothing to do with how much he makes,he got fu*#ed by MO who promised him god knows what and now he has to live with it.

Jeffro
09-02-2010, 10:51 AM
Yes and no. I initially asked a question whether the poster I was responding to believed that our leading goal scorer should be 3rd on the list. That does not necessarily imply that my belief is that he should be the top paid player simply because he leads in goals. As I mentioned in my last response, it's his overall production and impact on the pitch that has me convinced that he shouldn't be put behind Mista and JDG in overall compensation. It seems TFC is willing to compensate a player for "reputation" by awarding DP contracts to these two, why not the guy who has actually won championships?

I simply answered your question as you posed it. Had you asked "why should DeRo be paid more than the others" I would have given you a more complete answer.

TFC "We didn't attempt to sign any DP's because we needed to make sure we didn't sign anyone who makes more than Dwayne, who feels it is important that he is the highest paid player on the team and he might leave if he's not"

Roogsy
09-02-2010, 11:06 AM
The fact is Mista and JDG got their contracts based on their success in Europe,something that DeRo doesn't have.So who is to blame DeRo because he never made a cut in Europe or the other two guys with successful carriers in Europe?

Comparing DeRo with Mista is apple and oranges since winning MLS cup is not even close to winning La liga and UEFA Cup something that Mista has in his resume.

You are right when it comes how much DeRo means to our team,but that has nothing to do with how much he makes,he got fu*#ed by MO who promised him god knows what and now he has to live with it.

I don't disagree at all.

What I am trying to make people realize is that his "living with it" is a limited time thing. I can't say for certain but I someone did tell me that DeRo has an option in his contract. If so, then that 4 year deal may not be entirely true, it may be shorter and we could see our leading scorer and best threat we have ever had leave simply because Mo is an idiot.

Ivan
09-02-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm sure this has been posted before but looks like CONCACAF are revisiting their current World Cup Qualification set-up.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/67/world-cup/2010/08/31/2097344/buenos-views-new-concacaf-qualifying-proposal-levels-playing


I'd love to see the Gold Cup played here, or at least somewhere other than the US and Mexico, but I think the CONCACAF WC qualifying is fine the way it is. The best three should go. End of.

JonO
09-02-2010, 11:35 AM
If so, then that 4 year deal may not be entirely true, it may be shorter and we could see our leading scorer and best threat we have ever had leave simply because Mo is an idiot.
Go where? It's not really a game of chicken I want to play, but who else would offer him the money TFC does?

denime
09-02-2010, 01:10 PM
I'd love to see the Gold Cup played here, or at least somewhere other than the US and Mexico, but I think the CONCACAF WC qualifying is fine the way it is. The best three should go. End of.

It is best 3 +1 to playoffs right now and if they change the format as they want,still will be 3 best + 1 in playoffs.It is much better t have 2 groups with 4 teams each instead one group of 6 teams,that's the whole point of changing the WCQ format,not how many team will qualify to WC.

denime
09-02-2010, 01:14 PM
I don't disagree at all.

What I am trying to make people realize is that his "living with it" is a limited time thing. I can't say for certain but I someone did tell me that DeRo has an option in his contract. If so, then that 4 year deal may not be entirely true, it may be shorter and we could see our leading scorer and best threat we have ever had leave simply because Mo is an idiot.

Well, that the whole problem with DeRo,we don't know what Mo promised him and how long is his contract.No matter what DeRo feels that Mo f*#ked him up and he probably did.When the time comes around we will find out,hopefully by that time Mo will be already out s new GM will renegotiate the rest of contract with DeRo.

flambe
09-02-2010, 02:51 PM
DeRo earning $450,000, cry me a river.

Gargan and Nana earning $40,000 each, that's the bigger issue.

Section 117
09-02-2010, 03:31 PM
To argue the point about Dero - MLS wil not give DP money to exsisting players with the exception of Ladycakes as he was originally grand fathered in and is the face of the league...

They let Kenny Cooper go in Dallas because he wanted DP money so Dero IMO is not going to get DP money no matter what Mo said and Dero thinks he is worth.

One last thing when Dero was playing with Houston how much was he making again???

ManUtd4ever
09-02-2010, 03:49 PM
To argue the point about Dero - MLS wil not give DP money to exsisting players with the exception of Ladycakes as he was originally grand fathered in and is the face of the league...

They let Kenny Cooper go in Dallas because he wanted DP money so Dero IMO is not going to get DP money no matter what Mo said and Dero thinks he is worth.

One last thing when Dero was playing with Houston how much was he making again???

Isn't that twisted logic on the part of MLS though? How does the league expect to hold on to it's homegrown talent if it won't allow it's clubs to compensate the best domestic players?

rocker
09-03-2010, 04:07 PM
Go where? It's not really a game of chicken I want to play, but who else would offer him the money TFC does?

Yeah, De Ro isn't going anywhere in MLS at this point for much more money.
I still haven't seen the new CBA, but they mentioned it would have some kind of allocation order or draft for out of contract veterans. Those players would have a salary of something like 105% of the previous contract.

If this is true, De Ro can leave for another MLS team for an extra 5%. He could go to Europe, but at his age, I doubt he'd go. It's not like he's playing worse until he gets big bucks. So I wouldn't even bother with making him DP.

Heart of Stone
09-03-2010, 04:55 PM
Other than that, TFC is going to need to open up their wallets or risk pissing off their best player.

Maybe DeRo should follow Tie Domi's lead and go to Larry Tanenbaum's cottage for beers, bbq, and discussion of his contract...

Pachuco
09-03-2010, 06:53 PM
Not based on what I've seen...perhaps its just the loudest ones.

I'm not buying that at all. I'm the loudest anti JDG and one of the most pissed off ones that Robbo left. This is an argument people started to recently make up in order to make an excuse for a massive population for the TFC community not appreciating what JDG does on the field. It's an argument that has no substance at all.

Pachuco
09-03-2010, 06:55 PM
I did say scoring and I also said production. Production entails more than scoring does it not? Does it not at the very least ask for assists as well? How about scoring opportunities? Shots on net? And the ultimate tests of production...playoff appearances, finals appearances and actual championships.

Put that production up against Buddle and then tell me they should be making the same.

There has never been a player in the existence of TFC, and alot of teams in the MLS for that matter that can turn a game around like Dero can. Miracle in Montreal, Miracle in Honduras. There is no doubt Dero elevates this team and his stats don't even account for how important he is to this team.

Pachuco
09-03-2010, 06:58 PM
I didn't say they should be making the same, I said when compared to the rest of the league, his salary might be a little high.

It seems to me like you're moving the goal posts now. You started with saying he should be paid more because he is the leading goal scorer, I responded to show you that people in the league scoring more are paid less, you said that was comparing apples to oranges because those people were young, and hadn't done proven themselves in the league until recently, I responded with career stats for Buddle and DeRo showing them to be surprisingly similar (in when they joined the league, and in performance throughout their careers, in fact, the only time Buddle had a problem was with us, and that was only for 10 games). Then you said scoring isn't relevant, and it's about playoff appearances and assists.

Again, I never said they should be making the same! I was responding to your comments about scoring and pay. That's all. I think DeRo, in this league, is probably worth about 400k. I think he IS worth more than Buddle. I just don't think he's worth DP money. He has no other options to make that kind of money, is a lifer in MLS, and though there are people making more than him and contributing less, there are also people making MUCH less than him and contributing either more, or close to the same. I accept the fact that people want him on DP money, I can see the arguments for it, but personally, I don't think he has a great bargaining position to get it, and I don't think, in this league, at this time, he is a DP player. And please don't bring up Mista and JDG, because I have never said that THEY should be DP players either.

I don't know a single player in the MLS who contributes more to his team and gets payed less. The way I see it without Dero we are in last place. Without Buddle LA is still in first if you ask me. Buddle just fits really well in the LA system. Dero IS OUR system. Atleast our attacking one.

rocker
09-03-2010, 07:44 PM
But what more does TFC get if they pay him DP money?
Nothing.

If he's not making what people think he's worth, then that's a good thing in a capped league. It means we're getting value for money.

Does throwing more money at him "keep him happy"? That would assume DeRo plays for money. It would assume he wouldn't be happy with $443,000 a year.

Look, DeRo was underpaid in Houston, and played his best. Then he got a massive raise coming to TFC, and played his best.

In a business sense, paying him more is a waste of money.

He's the 13th best paid player in the league. That's pretty damn good out of 100s of guys.

Oldtimer
09-03-2010, 07:49 PM
I'm not buying that at all. I'm the loudest anti JDG and one of the most pissed off ones that Robbo left. This is an argument people started to recently make up in order to make an excuse for a massive population for the TFC community not appreciating what JDG does on the field. It's an argument that has no substance at all.

You say it has no substance, but offer no rebuttal for that argument.

We could have brought in Zidane in his prime, and there would still be people pissed off that Robbo was replaced. I suspect that you might be one of them.

The fact is Robbo deteriorated badly in season 3, and was no longer the player we loved in season 1 and appreciated still in season 2. He was passing the ball all the time to the opposing team, and no longer connecting well with the rest of the team. Now, in New York, he's just bench depth. I expect he'll announce his retirement at the end of this year.

I suspect your hate-on for JDG has more to do with Robbo leaving than any objective assessment of his talents. I really liked Robbo too, and wanted him to retire in Toronto. However, I don't let that colour how I feel about JDG, who is a quality player.

Roogsy
09-03-2010, 08:01 PM
There has never been a player in the existence of TFC, and alot of teams in the MLS for that matter that can turn a game around like Dero can. Miracle in Montreal, Miracle in Honduras. There is no doubt Dero elevates this team and his stats don't even account for how important he is to this team.

But apparently not important enough to supporters considering the posts in this thread. Maybe he should leave and remind these people what this team would be without him.

Roogsy
09-03-2010, 08:02 PM
But what more does TFC get if they pay him DP money?
Nothing.


Salary cap room. I thought that point was fairly obvious.


In a business sense, paying him more is a waste of money.


If we're talking about business sense...what the hell does the combined salaries of Mista and JDG represent then?

Chevy
09-03-2010, 08:09 PM
Sure, but "DP Money" doesn't neccesarily mean $1.8 MM, or $900k.

Giving him a few grand raise just to grab some salary cap room would be considered insulting by some, and maybe by Dero himself.

I love DeRo just as much as the next guy, but what if he DID leave? You move Barrett to the wing and sign a $400k striker. Worse off? Maybe, maybe not.

Roogsy
09-03-2010, 09:28 PM
Really? What 400k striker would you bring in that will produce 10+ goals and a bucketload of assists? Really? I'd like to know who is out there...especially someone who would take up a Canadian spot vs the scarce international spot.

JonO
09-03-2010, 09:33 PM
But apparently not important enough to supporters considering the posts in this thread. Maybe he should leave and remind these people what this team would be without him.
You haven't addressed the point that many of us are making. Where else would he go for DP money? I see a slight possibility in Vancouver, but I doubt it. Maybe San Jose 'cause of Yallop, but again - unlikely. Outside of that who is looking for a 32/33 year old perennial MLS player for their DP?

No doubt he brings bucket loads to the team and I would do everything possible to keep him - and if that means a raise, then give it to him. BUT - I just don't see him in a particularly strong bargaining position. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so...

Roogsy
09-03-2010, 10:09 PM
What? Are you serious? We just paid Mista a mill a year (prorated, but still, in the time he will be here, he will make in half a season more than DeRo makes all season, make sense of that). Dallas paid Denilson stupid money for a flop. San Jose has shown willingness to pay for talent. You don't think an underperforming team like Dallas wouldn't bring in DeRo considering his Texas connections and their need to make some news? Houston has had a horrible year and they have a rabid DeRo fanbase, you don't think they'd consider bringing him back after missing the playoffs this year? They LOVE DeRo in San Jose, if they make the playoffs this year and get bounced, you don't think they'd want to make a deeper playoff run next year?

When you're a proven clutch performer, the jobs come.

So again...the question is: How would YOU feel to see the ONLY potent scorer we've ever had leave because the team decided to pay underperformers MORE than they pay their only clutch player.

You guys feel so comfy playing chicken with the only player we have that scares other teams. Why are people so adamant to refuse to pay the ONLY player we have that actually deserves DP money and yet so willing to shrug their shoulders at paying players sick money to do barely anything at all. :noidea:

Carts
09-03-2010, 10:24 PM
You haven't addressed the point that many of us are making. Where else would he go for DP money? I see a slight possibility in Vancouver, but I doubt it. Maybe San Jose 'cause of Yallop, but again - unlikely. Outside of that who is looking for a 32/33 year old perennial MLS player for their DP?

No doubt he brings bucket loads to the team and I would do everything possible to keep him - and if that means a raise, then give it to him. BUT - I just don't see him in a particularly strong bargaining position. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so...

In regards to performance (not ticket sales for US teams) this is a point many on here MUST get over...

In regards to performing, does it really matter if you're a "perennial MLS player..."...???

Does anyone care that Landon Donovan is a perennial MLS player? No, they care that he performs...

If some 30yr old player constantly scored 20-goals a season, but for whatever reasons stays in the MLS - I don't care. I'll give him the money - HE PERFORMS...

Who cares where a player comes from, what teams he has played on - I care about WHAT THEY DO WHILE THEY'RE HERE...

Carts...

Roogsy
09-03-2010, 10:25 PM
Teams don't seem to care whether a player is 32. How old is Mista and what money did they give him?

DeRo at 32 is producing more than most players in MLS at any point in their careers. THAT is what counts. If you can point me to ANY indication that DeRo is slowing down or producing less because he isn't 22 anymore, I will look at it.

Pachuco
09-04-2010, 12:05 AM
You say it has no substance, but offer no rebuttal for that argument.

We could have brought in Zidane in his prime, and there would still be people pissed off that Robbo was replaced. I suspect that you might be one of them.

The fact is Robbo deteriorated badly in season 3, and was no longer the player we loved in season 1 and appreciated still in season 2. He was passing the ball all the time to the opposing team, and no longer connecting well with the rest of the team. Now, in New York, he's just bench depth. I expect he'll announce his retirement at the end of this year.

I suspect your hate-on for JDG has more to do with Robbo leaving than any objective assessment of his talents. I really liked Robbo too, and wanted him to retire in Toronto. However, I don't let that colour how I feel about JDG, who is a quality player.

Dude I think you should read what my post was and what argument I was talking to. Honestly, it has nothing to do with what you are saying.

I was responding to the recent claim that people who don't like JDG are the same people that didn't like Robbo. Therefore, we don't understand the DM position and that's why we don't appreciate JDG. I have no idea what your response has to do with that.

Once again, I understand the DM position, I loved Robbo on this team and thought he contributed as a DM. I love Alonzo in Seattle (and he doesn't score goals). I love Marquez and what he contributes. Always loved Sharley and what he contributes. Love Xabi Alonso, Love Mascherano and the list goes on. I as others understand the DM position and can appreciate players who contribute something in that role.

This claim that the same people that don't like JDG din't like Robbo has no substance at all. It's a made up argument based on absolutely no proof. You can't possibly tell me you remember everybody's opinion who posts on this board and therefore you've come to that conclusion.

As for my hate on for JDG has more to do with Robbo, hah, that's a joke. When JDG was brought in I was happy as hell. Until I started to watch him play and noticed he had nothing to offer to this league. One dimensional player who even Preki admits is not comfortable playing anything other then DM. Except I don't even think he's a great DM, he's just decent to me. Lack of size and his ball distribution is really hurting him as far as I'm concerned.

I suspect your love for JDG has alot more to do with his pedigree and his accomplishments as a Canadian then his talents. In fact, that seems to be the argument people constantly throw out. He layed in la Liga, he plays well on the CMNT, therefore, surely he must be good enough for TFC :rolleyes:.

I wasn't looking to make this a JDG debate but you give me no choice when you come up with an absurd assumption like that.

JonO
09-04-2010, 12:12 AM
In regards to performing, does it really matter if you're a "perennial MLS player..."...???

Does anyone care that Landon Donovan is a perennial MLS player? No, they care that he performs...

C'mon, Carts. You give one example who is the exception rather than the rule. Beside, Donovan has been earning DP-type money since before a DP existed. Before TO, DeRo was bringing in $325k. Is he a much more valuable player today than he was 2 years ago?

The way I see it, a player's value (especially in a capped league) is only what other's would be willing to pay. We pay Mista so much because that's what it took to entice him here (and it may have been a pay cut for him, I dunno). DeRo got more than a 30% pay increase to come play here. That's not too shabby.

Again, I am not arguing his value to the team, just his market value to other teams...

Pachuco
09-04-2010, 12:13 AM
Teams don't seem to care whether a player is 32. How old is Mista and what money did they give him?

DeRo at 32 is producing more than most players in MLS at any point in their careers. THAT is what counts. If you can point me to ANY indication that DeRo is slowing down or producing less because he isn't 22 anymore, I will look at it.

Agreed. The argument that Dero is slowing down is absurd. Or that he is no longer in his prime. He's having a heck of a year on what is no doubt the worst offense in the MLS.

Dero is to TFC what Angel is to NY. In spite of the terrible team NY had last year Angel continued to contribute. No different with Dero and TFC this year, except TFC seems to have a better defense then NY did last year.

Chevy
09-04-2010, 08:24 AM
Really? What 400k striker would you bring in that will produce 10+ goals and a bucketload of assists? Really? I'd like to know who is out there...especially someone who would take up a Canadian spot vs the scarce international spot.

Here you go. One of these guys would get you ten goals just fine...

Edson Buddle - $180k
Freddy Montero - $180k
Connor Casey - $350k
Alvaro Saborio - $120k
Chris Wondolowski - $48k

Sure they are not Canadians, but you could theoretically dump DeRo on San Jose for Wondolowski and have another 300-400k to spend on a decent winger and/or a left back.

Not saying by any stretch this should be done, but it's not impossible to replace 10 goals and a bucketful (3) of assists.

Pachuco
09-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Here you go. One of these guys would get you ten goals just fine...

Edson Buddle - $180k
Freddy Montero - $180k
Connor Casey - $350k
Alvaro Saborio - $120k
Chris Wondolowski - $48k

Sure they are not Canadians, but you could theoretically dump DeRo on San Jose for Wondolowski and have another 300-400k to spend on a decent winger and/or a left back.

Not saying by any stretch this should be done, but it's not impossible to replace 10 goals and a bucketful (3) of assists.

On this year's TFC? doubt it. Just because they score goals on good offensive teams doesn't mean they'll score them on a terrible team. All these guys (except for maybe Saborio) need good service in order to score goals. That's the big difference with Dero, he creates his own opportunities bags goals and continues to set up plays for others. People complain about his habit to play like an individual but if you had De Guzman, Saric and the invisible wingers servicing you, you would do the same. It's that skill that has gotten Dero 10 goals on this team. Freddy Montero (Who I personally love) would score 1 goal on TFC if he's lucky. Our lack of goal production comes from the people servicing the strikers, not from the strikers themselves.

You replace Dero for any of those guys and you just lots your captain, your locker room leader, the only player who has the ability to grab a game by the balls and create opportunities for himself. Sorry, not a single one of those guys can replace Dero.

rocker
09-04-2010, 01:46 PM
he creates his own opportunities bags goals and continues to set up plays for others. People complain about his habit to play like an individual but if you had De Guzman, Saric and the invisible wingers servicing you, you would do the same.

So every time De Ro "plays like an individual" it's warranted? Come on. The guy has had some great individual goals with TFC, but that's because he hogs the ball. He doesn't make his teammates better (he can win games on his own). He's the kind of guy who will say "OK boys, I'm gonna do this myself." That's fine when it works, but what about when he 1) goes offside all the time, 2) shoots field goals, 3) doesn't pass to teammates in the clear?

De Ro is a very good player. But I see his faults and that makes me less inclined to pay him more money. 400K or so is exactly right, weighing his positives with his negatives, which you aren't doing.

As well, the argument you make about how those other strikers wouldn't score on TFC... well, De Ro wouldn't score as many goals on a team with Conor Casey or Buddle up front. He would be sharing the load, as he did in Houston, with better players. He wouldn't be the focus and he wouldn't have to be "the man" as he seems to feel he has to be.

rocker
09-04-2010, 01:52 PM
So again...the question is: How would YOU feel to see the ONLY potent scorer we've ever had leave because the team decided to pay underperformers MORE than they pay their only clutch player.

You guys feel so comfy playing chicken with the only player we have that scares other teams. Why are people so adamant to refuse to pay the ONLY player we have that actually deserves DP money and yet so willing to shrug their shoulders at paying players sick money to do barely anything at all. :noidea:

Well, to your first point -- there's no indication De Ro would want to leave. He's got family here. He also can't go to another MLS team on his own will. So people aren't thinking of it as "playing chicken" at all. If you look at the context of this, the chances of De Ro leaving are slim. Highly unlikely.

Second, who exactly is shrugging shoulders at the pay to Mista and JDG? That's a strawman argument if I ever saw one. I think JDG is vastly overpaid and Mista too. That's not a justification to pay De Ro more -- we should be paying Mista and JDG less if sports was a perfect world (it isn't).

Sometimes less deserving players make more money than others.

Pachuco
09-04-2010, 06:43 PM
So every time De Ro "plays like an individual" it's warranted? Come on. The guy has had some great individual goals with TFC, but that's because he hogs the ball. He doesn't make his teammates better (he can win games on his own). He's the kind of guy who will say "OK boys, I'm gonna do this myself." That's fine when it works, but what about when he 1) goes offside all the time, 2) shoots field goals, 3) doesn't pass to teammates in the clear?

De Ro is a very good player. But I see his faults and that makes me less inclined to pay him more money. 400K or so is exactly right, weighing his positives with his negatives, which you aren't doing.

As well, the argument you make about how those other strikers wouldn't score on TFC... well, De Ro wouldn't score as many goals on a team with Conor Casey or Buddle up front. He would be sharing the load, as he did in Houston, with better players. He wouldn't be the focus and he wouldn't have to be "the man" as he seems to feel he has to be.

Yes, I don't know mind at all when Dero plays like an individual on this team. He's not holding the team back by doing so. He'd be holding the team back more if he passed to Peterson more often. I for one know that as long as Dero has the ball there is always a chance something is going to happen. there are players on this team that as soon as they get the ball the play dies, 99% of the time.

I also think you way over-exaggerate how much of an individual he is. So let's just agree to disagree. We obviously have different opinions on the guy.

Carts
09-04-2010, 10:03 PM
C'mon, Carts. You give one example who is the exception rather than the rule. Beside, Donovan has been earning DP-type money since before a DP existed. Before TO, DeRo was bringing in $325k. Is he a much more valuable player today than he was 2 years ago?

The way I see it, a player's value (especially in a capped league) is only what other's would be willing to pay. We pay Mista so much because that's what it took to entice him here (and it may have been a pay cut for him, I dunno). DeRo got more than a 30% pay increase to come play here. That's not too shabby.

Again, I am not arguing his value to the team, just his market value to other teams...

FAIL...

Quote my entire post...

Value (ie: ticket sales & all that garbage that actually does matter in this league etc) was quoted which you left out... (but I do agree with you it does matter)

I care about what a player DOES NOW... Not what they did before...

Call me crazy, but I would rather have a winner here - than a loser here who used to be a winner...

Carts...

Roogsy
09-04-2010, 11:07 PM
Here you go. One of these guys would get you ten goals just fine...

Edson Buddle - $180k
Freddy Montero - $180k
Connor Casey - $350k
Alvaro Saborio - $120k
Chris Wondolowski - $48k

Sure they are not Canadians, but you could theoretically dump DeRo on San Jose for Wondolowski and have another 300-400k to spend on a decent winger and/or a left back.

Not saying by any stretch this should be done, but it's not impossible to replace 10 goals and a bucketful (3) of assists.


You're right. Totally. We should send DeRo packing and really try to bring in Casey or Buddle.


No wait...