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GeorgeBest
08-19-2010, 12:49 PM
Wow, NYRB really opened the wallet.
Mista not doing badly himself.

Henry $5.6 million, Marquez $5.54 million, Mista $987K

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/august_12_2010_salary_information__by_club.pdf

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/only-beckham-earns-more-in-mls-than-henry-marquez/article1678697/

ensco
08-19-2010, 01:00 PM
I'm speechless. Holy shit. This requires serious reflection.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-19-2010, 01:02 PM
im not surprised at all

flatpicker
08-19-2010, 01:03 PM
Wow, NYRB really opened the wallet.
]

wow... Did they ever!

Pookie
08-19-2010, 01:17 PM
Wow, NYRB really opened the wallet.


... you mean Don Garber?

Allez allez
les allocation money

jabbronies
08-19-2010, 01:24 PM
Not surprised. Any team that has a chance to land Henry and Marquez would drop that kind of cash.

As for Mista - Not surprised. He's no Henry!

Pachuco
08-19-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm shocked at Mista's salary. Half a year making 1 mill and he's out of shape? That's completely nuts Mo. Luckily we are guaranteed the additional 6 games to use Mista in for that expensive price tag.

jabbronies
08-19-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm shocked at Mista's salary. Half a year making 1 mill and he's out of shape? That's completely nuts Mo. Luckily we are guaranteed the additional 6 games to use Mista in for that expensive price tag.

yup :hump:

Oldtimer
08-19-2010, 01:30 PM
Who cares about Mista's salary? Once you hit the cap limit, all extra is paid by MLSE. They could pay 1 mill, they could pay 100 mill, no difference to the team.

Now about NY's salaries, that proves that the club is an advertising write-off for Red Bull. No way they'd cover the cost from ticket sales and TV revenues, even if they sold out every game.

Nuvinho
08-19-2010, 01:39 PM
aren't all those salaries for the entire year? So Mista isn't really making $987K, he is making maybe less than half of that.

boban
08-19-2010, 01:41 PM
... you mean Don Garber?

Allez allez
les allocation money
Allocation money of $11 mil? !!!

:picard:

Blizzard
08-19-2010, 01:47 PM
Who cares about Mista's salary? Once you hit the cap limit, all extra is paid by MLSE. They could pay 1 mill, they could pay 100 mill, no difference to the team.


Exactly. $335k for a full season and $117.5k for half a season. That's what it comes down to in the end. Above and beyond, it doesn't really matter.

woolly
08-19-2010, 01:49 PM
Who cares about Mista's salary? Once you hit the cap limit, all extra is paid by MLSE. They could pay 1 mill, they could pay 100 mill, no difference to the team.

Now about NY's salaries, that proves that the club is an advertising write-off for Red Bull. No way they'd cover the cost from ticket sales and TV revenues, even if they sold out every game.

I bet you'll know who's paying that salary when your SSH ticket renewal comes in later this month...:hump::hump:

rocker
08-19-2010, 01:49 PM
aren't all those salaries for the entire year? So Mista isn't really making $987K, he is making maybe less than half of that.

In the past (See Colin Samuel, for example) the # you see on the players union reports has been the prorated amount, not a full season amount, for midseason signings.

So Mista could be making just under $2 million for a season, but prorated over half a season, he gets 987K.

Nuvinho
08-19-2010, 01:59 PM
if that is true....then both Henry and Marquez are making $10M a year....yikes!!!!

Greg
08-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Pretty sure they would only be making around $5mil...

ensco
08-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Who cares about Mista's salary? Once you hit the cap limit, all extra is paid by MLSE. They could pay 1 mill, they could pay 100 mill, no difference to the team.

Now about NY's salaries, that proves that the club is an advertising write-off for Red Bull. No way they'd cover the cost from ticket sales and TV revenues, even if they sold out every game.

I never understand this oft-repeated argument. It's imperative that the team spend its non-cap dollars well. You think New York fans want to trade Angel for Ljungberg?

Opportunity cost (the thing you didn't do, the asset you didn't acquire, when compared to the move you did make) is the key yardstick against which success is ultimately measured in life.

Fans need management to do two things:
- spend more than the average team spends
- spend well

Teams that do only the former don't succeed (Exhibits A and B are TFC's sister sports companies).

rocker
08-19-2010, 02:20 PM
Pretty sure they would only be making around $5mil...

I wouldn't be surprised if Henry is making 10 mil. NYRB don't seem concerned about the dollars, and LA tossed Beckham 6.5million per year in the "old MLS" when spending on a DP was a new thing.

CretanBull
08-19-2010, 02:27 PM
^There's no way Henry and Marquez are making 10 million a year.

Beckham did things for this league that neither Henry or Marquez can do...

Ossington Mental Youth
08-19-2010, 02:27 PM
Not surprised. Any team that has a chance to land Henry and Marquez would drop that kind of cash.


yeah i highly doubt they were going to take a pay cut to come to this league, if anything itll be a premium, im sure being in NYC helped



Exactly. $335k for a full season and $117.5k for half a season. That's what it comes down to in the end. Above and beyond, it doesn't really matter.

Yep, thats why i dont understand why people get upset about the salaries unless they can suggest a realistic person that could have signed on in the place of the player (ie using the DP differently and realistically)

GeorgeBest
08-19-2010, 02:28 PM
In the past (See Colin Samuel, for example) the # you see on the players union reports has been the prorated amount, not a full season amount, for midseason signings.

So Mista could be making just under $2 million for a season, but prorated over half a season, he gets 987K.


if that is true....then both Henry and Marquez are making $10M a year....yikes!!!!

Rocker is correct about the past. Last year JDG was listed at $956K after he joined, this year $1.717 million.

In Mista's case, he is only signed to the end of the season, so I expect he is getting the full $987K for a half season's work.

However, it's hard for me to believe that Henry and Marquez are making double the $5.6 million listed in annual salary. I can believe $5.6 million annually, which is still a bit higher than I expected for these guys.

It could be that they are being paid that amount for this year only for half a season and the salary includes what is essentially a hidden transfer fee. Both of them had to rescind their contracts with Barca which may have cost them personally and NYRB is compensating them for it.

Nuvinho
08-19-2010, 02:31 PM
Goff says its full year salaries:


SoccerInsider (http://twitter.com/SoccerInsider)

D.C. United newcomers Branko Boskovic ($516,000) and Pablo Hernandez ($249,000) making some cool cash. Figures are based on a full year #dcu (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dcu)

Ossington Mental Youth
08-19-2010, 02:33 PM
^^^^^
yes

the only thing being cut in half is the DP part not the above and beyond bit
So if its 250k for the season, it only costs 125k against the cap

TheKing7
08-19-2010, 02:36 PM
What shocks me is that our teams foundations (Cann + Attakora) make a comibned 100k annually...

Pookie
08-19-2010, 02:38 PM
Allocation money of $11 mil? !!!

:picard:


You sure about that facepalm?

Find me the reference that says the amount of allocation money is ever made public.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-19-2010, 02:38 PM
its a shame but welcome to the MLS, hopefully we can hold on to them at a decent price

Pachuco
08-19-2010, 02:49 PM
You sure about that facepalm?

Find me the reference that says the amount of allocation money is ever made public.

I don't get the allocation money reference though. Isn't allocation money still money spent by the team? it just simply doens't count towards the cap right?

When Mo pays 50% of someone's salary using allocation money (which is the max by the way) isn't that money MLSE is spending?

So in other words, regardless of allocation the Red Bulls still opened up their wallet. Unless I mis-understood allocation somewhere along the line.

kodiakTFC
08-19-2010, 02:53 PM
Proof that MLSE isn't cheap thats for sure.

ManUtd4ever
08-19-2010, 02:54 PM
I think it's great that New York has shelled out that kind of cash for two household names. Even Mista is a household name in Spain and to football fans around the world that followed La Liga over the last 10 years. The unprecedented lavish spending lends more credibility to the league and hopefully more teams will follow suit if marquee players are willing to sign with other MLS clubs in the future...

Blowing Bubbles
08-19-2010, 03:15 PM
You sure about that facepalm?

Find me the reference that says the amount of allocation money is ever made public.

How can you make the claim that they didn't have the necessary allocation and therefore the league cheated to let them fit in 3 DP's? The only thing you're hanging on is that the information isn't publicly available.

Teams like SSFC and Chicago have 2 DP's and I don't recall them coming in at the bottom last year (which gives you allocation) or selling Jose Altidore (which gives you allocation).

If there are a bunch of teams that can get 2 DP's and would seemingly have less ways of generating allocation, the only thing you have going for you is a tinfoil hat.

Pookie
08-19-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't get the allocation money reference though. Isn't allocation money still money spent by the team? it just simply doens't count towards the cap right?

When Mo pays 50% of someone's salary using allocation money (which is the max by the way) isn't that money MLSE is spending?

So in other words, regardless of allocation the Red Bulls still opened up their wallet. Unless I mis-understood allocation somewhere along the line.

Allocation money is like a grant. No doubt that the NYRBs are spending cash. But how much of it is their own... and how much did the league negotiate on their behalf?

Allocation money can be used to buy down the cap hit of a player but it can also be used to pay player salaries. There is no limit on the amount of allocation money you can use to pay a salary.

The league makes allocation money available under 4 conditions:

1) poor performance during the preceding MLS regular season;
(2) the transfer of a player to a club outside of MLS for value;
(3) roster purposes due to expansion status; and/or
(4) exceptional circumstances as approved by the Competition Committee.

Item 4) translates into whenever they feel like it.

They NEVER publish the amounts provided except in the case of a transfer fee.

Speaking of which, Henry and Marquez came to the Red Bulls for $0 in transfer. Barcelona indicated that Marquez's fee would be $6M for any team OTHER than the Red Bulls. For the Red Bulls, it would be $0. Isn't that nice?

Speculation is that the league is intent on propping up NY in order to secure TV revenue and capitalize on expansion on the east coast (possibly the 2nd NY team). A winning franchise and big names are necessary for that.

Another juicy line is being drawn between Barcelona's on again off again desire to have a share of a MLS franchise. The MLS is the only body that could make that happen and by doing a "favour" for the league by helping own of it's own(ed) franchises, there may be favours that the league could return to Barcelona down the road.

All nice and cozy isn't it?

Super
08-19-2010, 03:21 PM
This is beyond fucking dumb. Two players collecting 11 million dollars at NYRB - and the rest of the team share, what, 2 million bucks? That's just insanity. Wouldn't this league be better served by increasing the cap - or getting rid of it all together? It makes no sense to say on one hand that a cap is needed to protect smaller markets OR to prevent clubs from spending beyond there means, and then at the same time allow clubs to spend unlimited cash on 3 players. The "protect clubs from spending beyond their means" argument is definitely dead ... and the "protect smaller markets by preventing other teams from outspending them" is also dead. NYRB's budget is already 6 times that of any MLS team without DP's.

Beach_Red
08-19-2010, 03:29 PM
This is beyond fucking dumb. Two players collecting 11 million dollars at NYRB - and the rest of the team share, what, 2 million bucks? That's just insanity. Wouldn't this league be better served by increasing the cap - or getting rid of it all together? It makes no sense to say on one hand that a cap is needed to protect smaller markets OR to prevent clubs from spending beyond there means, and then at the same time allow clubs to spend unlimited cash on 3 players. The "protect clubs from spending beyond their means" argument is definitely dead ... and the "protect smaller markets by preventing other teams from outspending them" is also dead. NYRB's budget is already 6 times that of any MLS team without DP's.


I agree with you completely, but it's based on emotion. I've read a few studies lately that say a big gap in pay has little to no effect - not just in sports but in everything. For sports one study used NBA teams and found that teams with a couple of very highly paid stars and a bunch of journeymen players actually do better than teams with a more equitable division of salary. And companies with billionaire CEOs and sweatshops do just as well or better than companies without such big salary gaps between highest and lowest paid.

So clearly, the salary cap is only here to wipe out the "middle class" like every other move by big business in our lives ;).

Super
08-19-2010, 03:41 PM
Also, I understand the argument that the MLS wants to promote and help nurture American players (and, I guess, for us Canadian), and a lift in the cap may push these players onto the bench. Fine, that's a good argument. However, there's an easy fix: just limit the amount of non Canadian/American players on the team. We already have a rule like that in place. Allowing us to spend unlimited amounts of money on our team is basically what we can already do now - except it's limited to 3 players. As a result many American/Canadian players are oddly over/underpaid, and guaranteed contracts seriously hurt clubs (Garcia is an example - collecting 200k off the cap). If you allow MLS teams to spend as much as they want on their ENTIRE squad, and you allow them to sign as many players as they want, you will end up with a MUCH better product on the field. Also, salaries would be better fitted for the market overall. Certainly it would help us in our CCL campaign if we could add another 2-3 $300k players to the squad - strenghtening it significantly.

Pookie
08-19-2010, 03:44 PM
So clearly, the salary cap is only here to wipe out the "middle class" like every other move by big business in our lives ;).

So, is MLS Allocation Money the equivalent of Corporate Welfare?

gmacpheetfc
08-19-2010, 03:48 PM
nana makes 40 wow

Pachuco
08-19-2010, 03:59 PM
Allocation money is like a grant. No doubt that the NYRBs are spending cash. But how much of it is their own... and how much did the league negotiate on their behalf?

Allocation money can be used to buy down the cap hit of a player but it can also be used to pay player salaries. There is no limit on the amount of allocation money you can use to pay a salary.

The league makes allocation money available under 4 conditions:

1) poor performance during the preceding MLS regular season;
(2) the transfer of a player to a club outside of MLS for value;
(3) roster purposes due to expansion status; and/or
(4) exceptional circumstances as approved by the Competition Committee.

Item 4) translates into whenever they feel like it.

They NEVER publish the amounts provided except in the case of a transfer fee.

Speaking of which, Henry and Marquez came to the Red Bulls for $0 in transfer. Barcelona indicated that Marquez's fee would be $6M for any team OTHER than the Red Bulls. For the Red Bulls, it would be $0. Isn't that nice?

Speculation is that the league is intent on propping up NY in order to secure TV revenue and capitalize on expansion on the east coast (possibly the 2nd NY team). A winning franchise and big names are necessary for that.

Another juicy line is being drawn between Barcelona's on again off again desire to have a share of a MLS franchise. The MLS is the only body that could make that happen and by doing a "favour" for the league by helping own of it's own(ed) franchises, there may be favours that the league could return to Barcelona down the road.

All nice and cozy isn't it?

1. So again, if Mo pays down 50% of a player's salary using allocation then you are saying that money is coming from the league and not from MLSE?

2. I am 100% sure MLSinToronto said you can only pay 50% of a player's salary using allocation money. Unless things have changed since then, that's definately what he posted.

Beach_Red
08-19-2010, 04:29 PM
So, is MLS Allocation Money the equivalent of Corporate Welfare?


Yeah, of course it is. But your over-valuing the allocation money. It's still a leftover from the single-entity that's (slowly) being replaced by individual team owners. MLSE probably didn't care when they invested in MLS but the Seattle owners would have a lot to say if NY was too heavily stocked. And chances are Red Bull never would have invested in MLS in the first place if they hadn't been given more control over their own team.

Bringing in Beckham was a big news event for casual fans, but it was also a signal to potential owners that MLS was going to change the way it does business.

rocker
08-19-2010, 05:32 PM
Allocation exists as well to facilitate transactions throughout a single entity league.

When individual teams were owned by more than one owner, and everything was owned by the league, they needed a mechanism to facilitate financial transactions that was a step removed from commissioner control. Allocation allows money exchange in a more systematic, public way.

jloome
08-19-2010, 08:36 PM
I like Mista and he's a good player who will do a lot for us. But he's not even close to the best player we could get for $987,000, let alone double that, if that is a half season.

Pookie
08-19-2010, 08:54 PM
1. So again, if Mo pays down 50% of a player's salary using allocation then you are saying that money is coming from the league and not from MLSE?

Sort of. Allocation money is league money. They are providing it.

The money is only given for "exceptional circumstances as approved by the competition committee."

It's sort of like a small business grant. You apply for it based on a specific need. The money is made available for the investment you want to make. You can't then take the money and buy a big screen TV. It has to be used for the purpose that secured the grant.


2. I am 100% sure MLSinToronto said you can only pay 50% of a player's salary using allocation money. Unless things have changed since then, that's definately what he posted.

He may be referring to the player's cap hit. You can use it to buy down a DP's hit to $150k for example.

But it can be used to pay salaries. There are 3 ways in which it can be used:

1. They can use those funds to pay a onetime transfer fee to acquire a player.

2. They can be used to buy down a player’s salary either partially or to pay their whole salary.

3. They can be used to buy down a designated players cap hit reducing their impact on the overall salary cap.

This is a pretty good explanation of the subject: Understanding MLS Allocation (http://gosounders.com/2010/04/19/understanding-mls-part-1-of-4-allocation/)

DOMIN8R
08-19-2010, 09:11 PM
I'm speechless. Holy shit. This requires serious reflection.

Please tell me that I am not the only one who caught the sarcasm.

Let's just admit it and say it out loud. The salary cap is and the collective bargaining agreement is intended to give the owners absolute control over their own payroll. This will creep each year as MLS allows more and more DPs (we are up to 3 already!). Eventually, if we aren't there already, those willing to pay will get the higher priced talent.

Ensco is right. Spend more and/or spend right.

This league is moving in this direction. If MLSE, like Red Bull are willing to and able to make the right and more expensive offers, we will sit pretty too. Ohterwise, we will be outspent!

Goodnight.

CretanBull
08-19-2010, 09:14 PM
I like Mista and he's a good player who will do a lot for us. But he's not even close to the best player we could get for $987,000, let alone double that, if that is a half season.

I'm not sure if that's true...most credible sources say that MLSE have been willing to make DP money available for at least the last two seasons and we weren't able to attract anyone bigger. We had to beg and plead with JDG to come here even after most of his European options had dried up (and a lot of people aren't happy with that signing).

Mista is a very good player - although this isn't saying much, he's the best player that we've ever had and he's still not match fit, settling in, getting to know his teammates & the league etc.

ag futbol
08-19-2010, 09:36 PM
^ Well keep in mind who's the guy in charge that's supposed to be bringing in the talent. He's not exactly creative.

Here's an example of a creative way to get talent... worked for Urawa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_(footballer)

jloome
08-20-2010, 02:15 PM
I'm not sure if that's true...most credible sources say that MLSE have been willing to make DP money available for at least the last two seasons and we weren't able to attract anyone bigger. We had to beg and plead with JDG to come here even after most of his European options had dried up (and a lot of people aren't happy with that signing).

Mista is a very good player - although this isn't saying much, he's the best player that we've ever had and he's still not match fit, settling in, getting to know his teammates & the league etc.

Nope. Unbelievable. Sorry, but there are guys like Fredy Montero all over south america, all of whom would probably out-perform Mista -- or at least give as us much -- and all of whom would kill for that kind of paycheque.

European salaries tend to inflate what people think footballers are worth. In about two-third of the footballing world (including most of Africa, Asia and South America) you're luck to make regular MLS money, let alone DP style dough.

rocker
08-20-2010, 02:25 PM
Nope. Unbelievable. Sorry, but there are guys like Fredy Montero all over south america,

I hear this from people on this board, but how come other teams aren't finding these guys either? DC United has tried.... and failed.

This idea that there are lots of Freddy Montero's ready, willing, and able to come to MLS seems far-fetched.

Pachuco
08-20-2010, 02:41 PM
I hear this from people on this board, but how come other teams aren't finding these guys either? DC United has tried.... and failed.

This idea that there are lots of Freddy Montero's ready, willing, and able to come to MLS seems far-fetched.

Chivas, Dallas are teams starting to build from South\Central America. Seattle also has another key one which is Alonzo from Cuba.

The point is, if you are European you come with a hefty price tag, but there are way too many examples of cheaper south american\central american\caribbean players who come with a much cheaper price tag and on many occasions have been more succeful in this league then the Europeans.

Alixir
08-20-2010, 02:46 PM
Wow, NYRB really opened the wallet.

Typical New York sports team...trying to buy championships.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-21-2010, 02:49 AM
there are guys like Fredy Montero all over south america, all of whom would probably out-perform Mista -- or at least give as us much -- and all of whom would kill for that kind of paycheque.


I suspect the third parties involved in south america shy alot of customers off as a 'purchase' is never straight forward

denime
08-21-2010, 08:38 AM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/beating-red-bulls-will-be-major-step-on-playoff-road/article1680958/



TFC Disparities
TFC’s current roster and salaries make for interesting reading.
When considering ROI (return on investment) for each player there are some real winners and losers. Starting with captain Dwayne DeRosario whose $443,750 salary is a steal if you consider his friend and teammate Julian de Guzman is making quadruple the amount. De Guzman’s performances since he has been at TFC certainly do not justify his salary.



Meanwhile Nana Attakora ($40,000), Adrian Cann ($65,342) and Dan Gargan ($40,000) compared to Raivis Hscanovics ($120,250), Maxim Usanov ($102,250), and Fuad Ibrahim ($133,000) surely requires a rethink.
These circumstances can only happen in the first place if due diligence and intellect on evaluating a player’s potential is not provided.



Toronto GM Mo Johnston :hump: has shown a malleable tendency to either catalogue shop for players or a naive ability to listen to the wrong people in regards to player signings. Ali Gerba being the benchmark for the latter circumstance.


Toronto FC has performed admirably so far this season but is it more because of to the coaching ability of Preki :thumbsup:or the management of Johnston?

ag futbol
08-21-2010, 09:08 AM
Mo Johnston aside .....

DCU originally had a huge advantage on everyone else because of their south American scouting network. These days, it's not shooting fish in a barrel but you'd be naive not to point out most of the worth while talent coming into this league is coming from south or central america.

This doesn't mean you should accept or reject players based on their passport. But if you're confining your search to mostly European players, your making it pretty hard on yourself to find the same level of talent that might be available elsewhere for cheaper.

jloome
08-21-2010, 11:06 AM
I hear this from people on this board, but how come other teams aren't finding these guys either? DC United has tried.... and failed.

This idea that there are lots of Freddy Montero's ready, willing, and able to come to MLS seems far-fetched.

No one's offering them DP money.

That's likely more an issue of the league not being willing to spend DP money on someone who's non-promotional outside of performance.

jloome
08-21-2010, 11:07 AM
I suspect the third parties involved in south america shy alot of customers off as a 'purchase' is never straight forward

This is also true.

Pachuco
08-21-2010, 07:26 PM
Can I just say that the goal Marquez scored today was worth all the million he gets paid. Let alone his incredible ability to slow down a game and to find a NY player any time he has the ball. This guy in my opinion is worth all the money he gets. Henry on the other hand, jury is still out on him.

Oldtimer
08-21-2010, 08:01 PM
Toronto FC has performed admirably so far this season but is it more because of to the coaching ability of Preki or the management of Johnston?

I think we all know what most of us think about Mo Johnston by now...